Wilno je Polska

[Peterski]

One of very numerous examples proving that the 1897 census was manipulated:

In 1906 Poles in Sokolka county (uyezd) of Grodno Governorate sent a petition to Russian authorities to introduce Polish language in schools for their children, because Polish was their mother tongue. Petition was signed by over 15,000 adults, inhabitants of this county. By comparison the census of 1897 counted only 1,273 Poles in this county - including children. Clear falsification.

[Rugevit]

One of very numerous examples proving that the 1897 census was manipulated:

In 1906 Poles in Sokolka county (uyezd) of Grodno Governorate sent a petition to Russian authorities to introduce Polish language in schools for their children, because Polish was their mother tongue. Petition was signed by over 15,000 adults, inhabitants of this county. By comparison the census of 1897 counted only 1,273 Poles in this county - including children. Clear falsification.

Polish language was prestigious to learn. Hence, more signed a petition. Just because a lot of people learn English in Vilnius does not mean there are many ethnic English people living in Vilnius.

[Rugevit]

But census of 1909 is showing fewer - 43,1% (756,600) Belarusians in Vilna Gov.Number of Poles in 1897 census was 129,700 and in 1909 census much bigger - 312,500.

I've been through this with you already. Lithuanian delegation questioned the accuracy of census 1909 suggesting there were no more than 20% of Poles living in Vilna Governate.

And here data on Catholics & Poles in Grodno Oblast after WW2 (according to official censuses of Belarus):As you can see in some regions there are many Belarusian Catholics (Oszmiana for example). But in some other regions (Grodno and Lida for example) number of Poles is bigger than number of Catholics, which means that many Orthodox and other people also identify as Poles.

I've been through this with you already. Those identifying as Poles in Belarus were linguistically and culturally Belarusian. I explained the reasons why people could identify themselves as Poles. There was no belarusianisation after WWII. There was russification of Belarus, however.

Even today in Wilenszczyzna region (below) Belarusians are just 37,8% of population. Poles in this territory are now still over 1/4 of population, despite the fact that ca. 50% of all Poles from this area emigrated to Poland in 1944-1959 (and many more did later)

Belarusians were moved from Bialystok to Belarus, while Poles from Belarus were moved to Poland and Lithuania. Yes, in Lithuania too. I don't have a desire and time to search if Belarusians were moved from Lithuania to Belarus to replace lost population during WWII. There was a lot of movement of people in eastern Europe after WWII.

[Rugevit]

"Prostaja mova" was not "pure" Belarusian, but mixed Polish-Belarusian & Belarusian-Polish dialects. And most of those people identified as Poles (because they were different by language from Lithuanians and different by religion from East Slavs). There are similar mixed Polish-Czech & Czech-Polish dialects, for example in Hlucinsko region (known as Lachian dialects - from Lachs, Poles). Old Slavia was a language continuum, not just between West-West and East-East but even between East Slavic and West Slavic languages there were often mixed-dialects.A modern example is Surzhyk (which is mixed Ukrainian-Russian), popular in eastern Ukraine.

Prostaja mova was Belarusian language. There are scholarly articles on the subject . Some Polish loanwords didn't make 'prostaja mova' to be a dialect of Polish. Dictionary entry on Prostaja Mova : http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/1108482

This is an example of Prostaja mova, which is clearly Belarusian language.


"Па-просту гаворыць! Слухайце, слухайце, па-просту, па-нашаму гаворыць!" […] Усе, хто стаяў на вуліцы, пачуўшы, што гавораць вершы на простай, тутэйшай мове, рынуліся ў залу і так стоўпіліся, што бліжэйшым прышлося стрымліваць напор. Аднекуль з'явіўся стол, мяне паставілі на яго і сказалі: «Гавары зноў!» (Паўлина Мядзёлка Сцежкамі жыцця. Успаміны). „Другія не гавораць праз цемнату сваю, бо паверылі нашым ворагам. што мова нашая «брыдкая», «простая» …“(В Ластоўскі Што трэба ведаць кажнаму беларусу). „Бачачы, што яны сапраўдныя беларусы, папрасіў, каб размаўлялі «па просту» — па-беларуску. Людзі зрабіліся як не свае, твары іх засвяціліся. Аказаліся разгаворлівымі, смелымі, вясёлымі. Выслухаў іх беды і праблемы. Даведаўся, што ксёндз Бобіч навучае іх катэхізму па-беларуску, а казанне кажа адно польскае, а другое беларускае. Запытаўся, як ім лепей, як яны лепш разумеюць. «Зразумела, што па просту».“ (Ю.Матулевіч) „- Я паляк! — крычыць Нупрэйка, -//Ды па-просту гавару.// І аж дымецца ў гару. //— Пра «па-просту» (быў такоўскі). //Гаварыў тут ксёндз Жаброўскі“ (Зянон, Вялікае княства). „Калі паглядзім на ўсю Беларусь, на «беларускія гаворкі», на «простую мову», як кажа большасць аб мове штодзённай камунікацыі, то заўважым, што ўвесь час была мова «сакрум» не беларуская“ (Анна Енгелькінг).

It was also very hard in the past to find an exact boundary between Ukrainian-speakers and Belarusian-speakers. Everyone knew that Belarusians were north of Pripet Marshes and Ukrainians south of Pripet Marshes, but nobody knew where was the exact boundary.Poleshukswere claimed by both Belarus and Ukraine, but they spoke "tutejsza mova" ("local tongue"), which were also such mixed-dialects.

The boundary between Belarusian and Ukrainian langauges is easy to find. There are many linguistic features separating Belarusian and Ukrainian languages. Poleshuks of Polessie spoke a transitional dialect between Belarusian and Ukrainian. The transitional dialect was labelled a micro-language by some linguists. But the dialect is more similar to Ukrainian than Belarusian. Some dialects in Chernihiv in north-eastern Ukraine is more similar to Belarusian than to Ukraine.

Poleshuks in western region near the River Bug were also a bit similar to Poles, it was a continuum.

Poleshuks language on western Bug River was also more similar to Ukrainian than to Belarusian or Polish. This has been proven by linguists already. There was certainly no continuum between Belarusian and Polish in Vilnia Governate except for polonisms in Belarusian language.

Ethnicity is not a 0-1 thing despite the fact that most people imagine it to be so simple. In reality it is more complex and multi-layered.

For example you can have people who identify as both Poles and Belarusians. I don't see a reason why there can't be such people.

It makes drawing borders complicated, I know. But it's true.

Most political leaders prefer to just take a pencil and a ruler and draw a simple border, without thinking much.

Linguistic and ethnographic borders between Poles and eastern Slavs are not complicated. There is a linguistic continuum between Ukrainian and Belarusian and between Belarusian and a dialect of Russian spoken in western Russia near Belarus. But there was no linguistic continuum between Polish and Belarusian or between Polish and Ukrainian. Polish is a western Slavic language, while Belarusian is an eastern Slavic language. Eastern Slavic languages had a different development in the last 1,000 years. Polonisms in Belarusian or Ukrainian languages don't make those languages to be dialects of Polish language. Some Baltic dialects and Lithuania and eastern Latvia also had polonisms. No-one in the right frame of mind will claim continuum between Baltic dialects and Polish because of polonisms.

You either lack much knowledge on eastern Slavic languages and ethnography or you are full of shit as have been throughout this discussion.

This is "stereotypical" but simplistic and not really true.

Many Jews lived in rural areas too - as far as I can remember about 1/3 or more of all Jews were rural (and ca. 2/3 were urban).

Poles lived in rural areas too, and not just in manors (as nobility), but also in villages.

Finally, some Belarusians and Lithuanians also lived in cities.

There were Jews in small towns too. There were Belarusians and Lithuanians in major cities too. I was talking about majorities living in large cities were Jews and Poles. Check out the demography of any large city prior to 1920s.

Yeah - and so did linguistic border between Poles and East Slavs + Balts in this area

Polish language spread to the region late. If I am not mistaken people are considered indigenous to the region if they have lived continuously for 500 years or more in the region. Balts have lived in the region for more than 2,500 years. Eastern Slavs lived in Belarus since 7-8AD. Poles appeared in significant numbers in the region no earlier than 300 years ago.

Yes - in some regions there have been many Catholic Belarusians. But in other regions Catholics have identified as Poles.

In the early 20th century for example many Belarusian Roman Catholics lived in Vileyka and Dzisna regions.

Self-identification for government papers was done for different reasons. One needs to look at culture and language of people.

[Peterski]

The boundary between Belarusian and Ukrainian langauges is easy to find. There are many linguistic features separating Belarusian and Ukrainian languages. Poleshuks of Polessie spoke a transitional dialect between Belarusian and Ukrainian. The transitional dialect was labelled a micro-language by some linguists. But the dialect is more similar to Ukrainian than Belarusian. Some dialects in Chernihiv in north-eastern Ukraine is more similar to Belarusian than to Ukraine.

The boundary is not easy to find because of these transitional mixed-dialects, that's what I wrote above.

Most of Polesie region is part of Belarus today, even though according to you their dialects were more similar to Ukrainian.

Just because a lot of people learn English in Vilnius does not mean there are many ethnic English people living in Vilnius.

Just because many Poles spoke Belarusian doesn't mean they are Belarusian, if they have a different identity and cilture.

Today most of Irish and Scottish people speak English, but they don't identify as English people and they have their own cultures.

Even if there was no Belarusianization but Russification in Soviet times, then there still was De-Polonization in 1772-1921 and 1939-2014.

I don't have a desire and time to search if Belarusians were moved from Lithuania to Belarus to replace lost population during WWII.

There were almost no (or very few) Belarusians within present borders of Lithuania.

These "Belarusians" were either moved to Poland or stayed here like my family. We are Poles.

This is an example of Prostaja mova, which is clearly Belarusian language.

Only when you write it in Cyrillic.

Poles appeared in significant numbers in the region no earlier than 300 years ago.

In significant numbers as settlers already in the 1400s, but as captives already in the 1200s (as prisoners of war from Pagan Lithuanian raids). In the 1200s Pagan Lithuanians raided Mazovia and settled thousands of captured Poles as their subjects in the Vilno Region.

Later on - after Krewo Union - Lithuanians invited Polish settlers to their lands, both to towns and to countryside.

Prostaja mova

Also known as poprostemu.

[glass]

Just because many Poles spoke Belarusian doesn't mean they are Belarusian, if they have a different identity and cilture.

Dood, this bs. Upper class (poles in this case) rarely speak language of lower class (belarusian peasants in this case). Same way russians in baltics did not speak local subhuman languages when SU was disolved, europeans have not bothered learn native languages of their colonies and so on.

Also all your "sources" from 2000s, most likely fantasies and/or historical revisionism from individuals who has nearly nothing to do with scientific community and history.

[Rugevit]

The boundary isnoteasy to find because of these transitional mixed-dialects, that's what I wrote above.

Most of Polesie region is part of Belarus today, even though according to you their dialects were more similar to Ukrainian.

You wrote nonsense once again. Both political and dialect boundaries are well defined between Ukraine and Belarus.

There is ethnographic region Polessie in Belarus known as Belarusian Polessie (western and eastern). There is ethnographic Polessie in Ukraine known as Ukrainian Polessie. Poleshuks live in Polessie speaking transitional dialects between Ukrainian and Belarus. Poleshuks dialects are considered as a microlanguage by some linguists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Polesian_dialect
Modern political border between Belarus and Ukraine is approximately as it was agreed in Lublin Union. Southern territories and eastern territories of the GDL ( present day Ukraine and parts of eastern Poland) were transferred to Polish Crown.In 1939 Khrushchev wanted to transfer large areas of Brest voblast including Brest itself to Ukraine. Belarusian delegation argued that the region has common history with regions of Belarus since 1319.

Polessian dialect in western Polessie : https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...n_language.png

Just because many Poles spoke Belarusian doesn't mean they are Belarusian, if they have a different identity and culture.

People were ethno-graphically and linguistically Belarusians. Polish identity was put for different reasons during turbulent political times.

Only when you write it in Cyrillic.

The text is not even close to Polish. Here it is in Latin transliteration.

Pa-prostu havoryć! Sluchajcie, sluchajcie, pa-prostu, pa-našamu havoryć!" […] Usie, chto stajaŭ na vulicy, pačuŭšy, što havorać vieršy na prostaj, tutejšaj movie, rynulisia ŭ zalu i tak stoŭpilisia, što bližejšym pryšlosia strymlivać napor. Adniekuĺ zjaviŭsia stol, mianie pastavili na jaho i skazali: «Havary znoŭ!» (Paŭlina Miadziolka Sciežkami žyccia. Uspaminy). „Druhija nie havorać praz ciemnatu svaju, bo pavieryli našym voraham. što mova našaja «brydkaja», «prostaja» …“(V Lastoŭski Što treba viedać kažnamu bielarusu). „Bačačy, što jany sapraŭdnyja bielarusy, paprasiŭ, kab razmaŭliali «pa prostu» — pa-bielarusku. Liudzi zrabilisia jak nie svaje, tvary ich zasviacilisia. Akazalisia razhavorlivymi, smielymi, viasiolymi. Vysluchaŭ ich biedy i prabliemy. Daviedaŭsia, što ksiondz Bobič navučaje ich katechizmu pa-bielarusku, a kazannie kaža adno poĺskaje, a druhoje bielaruskaje. Zapytaŭsia, jak im liepiej, jak jany liepš razumiejuć. «Zrazumiela, što pa prostu».“ (JU.Matulievič) „- JA paliak! — kryčyć Nuprejka, -//Dy pa-prostu havaru.// I až dymiecca ŭ haru. //— Pra «pa-prostu» (byŭ takoŭski). //Havaryŭ tut ksiondz Žabroŭski“ (Zianon, Vialikaje kniastva). „Kali pahliadzim na ŭsiu Bielaruś, na «bielaruskija havorki», na «prostuju movu», jak kaža boĺšasć ab movie štodzionnaj kamunikacyi, to zaŭvažym, što ŭvieś čas byla mova «sakrum» nie bielaruskaja“ (Anna Jenhieĺkinh).

In significant numbers as settlers already in the 1400s, but as captives already in the 1200s (as prisoners of war from Pagan Lithuanian raids). In the 1200s Pagan Lithuanians raided Mazovia and settled thousands of captured Poles as their subjects in the Vilno Region.

I linked you to a scholarly article discussing how Poles appeared in the region. Most were polonised local population of 18th-19th centuries, which is agreed by Polish, Belarusian and Lithuanian historians. There were no significant number of Poles even in the early stages after Lublin union. The article is written by professional historian from Hrodna which you should have no problem understanding it if you can read 'prostaja mova” as you claimed. http://kamunikat.org/7979.html

[Rugevit]

Dood, this bs. Upper class (poles in this case) rarely speak language of lower class (belarusian peasants in this case). Same way russians in baltics did not speak local subhuman languages when SU was disolved, europeans have not bothered learn native languages of their colonies and so on.

Also all your "sources" from 2000s, most likely fantasies and/or historical revisionism from individuals who has nearly nothing to do with scientific community and history.

It wasn't always between upper class and lower class. Belarusian was considered prestigious among some Lithuanians. Not as prestigious as Polish though. This could be the reason why Slavic-Baltic linguistic border shifted further into historic Baltic territories Religion also played a big role in deciding which language to speak. It wasn't uncommon for Belarusian and Lithuanian families to have some members identifying themselves as Poles, while other members are Lithuanians or Belarusians.

One old guy from Daugavpils was saying he was only Russian in his family. All other relatives were Belarusians, Poles, Latgalians. You may remember during Soviet times it wasn't uncommon to have different ethnicity in passport.

[Rugevit]

Statistics from 2009 census

There were 294,549 Poles living in Belarus in 2009
Of those 294,549 only 15,854 people considered Polish to be their native tongue.
171,287 of 294,549 considered Belarusian to be their native tongue.

Page 23 : http://web.archive.org/web/201009172...l_republic.rar

[Peterski]

In Trakai (Troki) County in 1912 there took place a church census recording ethnicity of parishioners in each commune & settlement.

The census was carried out by local parson and representatives of local Lithuanians and Poles, so it is totally objective.

Here are the results of this census (Litwinów = Lithuanians, Polaków = Poles, brak = zero) - areas with Polish majority bolded:

Birsztany (Birstonas) 1281 Litwinów 15 Polaków
Butrymańce (Butrimonys) 1905 Litwinów 356 Polaków
Daugi (Daugai) 5670 Litwinów 132 Polaków
Dorsuniszki (Darsuniskis) 2481 Litwinów brak Polaków
Duśmiany (Dusmenys) 3030 Litwinów 460 Polaków
Giegużyn (Geguzine) 2785 Litwinów 1403 Polaków
Hanuszyszki (Onuskis) 2155 Litwinów 2156 Polaków
Jewje (Vievis) 880 Litwinów 3800 Polaków
Jezno (Jieznas) 3766 Litwinów 1193 Polaków
Kietowiszki (Kietaviskes) 3925 Litwinów 811 Polaków
Kowale (Kalviai) 2561 Litwinów 300 Polaków
Kozakiszki (Kazokieskes) 169 Litwinów 2665 Polaków
Kronie (Kruonis) 2200 Litwinów 252 Polaków
Landwarów (Lentvaris) brak Litwinów 3424 Polaków
Marcinkańce (Marcinkonys) 3020 Litwinów 80 Polaków
Merecz (Merkine) 5130 Litwinów 850 Polaków
Niedzingi (Nedinge) 2510 Litwinów 514 Polaków
Niemonajcie (Nemunaitis) 2850 Litwinów 150 Polaków
Niemoniuny (Nemaniunai) 2645 Litwinów 195 Polaków
Olita (Alytus) 1980 Litwinów 991 Polaków
Olkienniki (Valkininkai) 6387 Litwinów 1707 Polaków
Oława (Alove) 2422 Litwinów 246 Polaków
Orany (Varena) 4715 Litwinów 326 Polaków
Piwoszuny (Pivasiunai) 2095 Litwinów 2687 Polaków
Połuknie (Paluknys) brak Litwinów 1821 Polaków
Przełaje (Perloja) 2200 Litwinów brak Polaków
Punie (Punia) 2966 Litwinów 137 Polaków
Rotnica (Ratnycia) 2235 Litwinów 862 Polaków
Rudniki (Rudninkai) brak Litwinów 2380 Polaków
Rudziszki (Rudiskes) 872 Litwinów 2332 Polaków
Rykonty (Rykantai) brak Litwinów 1775 Polaków
Stokliszki (Stakliskes) 5831 Litwinów 613 Polaków
Sumiliszki (Semeliskes) 2899 Litwinów 3743 Polaków
Troki Nowe (Trakai) brak Litwinów 7300 Polaków
Troki Stare (Senieji Trakai) brak Litwinów 3500 Polaków
Użugośc (Uzuguostis) 2685 Litwinów 849 Polaków
Wysoki Dwór (Aukstadvaris) 547 Litwinów 3738 Polaków
Żośle (Zasliai) 6390 Litwinów 2841 Polaków
Żyżmory (Ziezmariai) 5943 Litwinów 1982 Polaków

Church censuses are very important source of data, which once again prove how falsified was the 1897 census.

But - on the other hand - the 1897 census did not count nationality / ethnicity, but only language.

=============================================

Here is a linguistic map of the Vilnius Region made by late (died in 2004) Lithuanian linguist, professor Valerijus Čekmonas:

It is showing Polish, Lithuanian and "prosta mova" / "po prostu" languages:





This map is not bad - but he made some mistakes, for example he marked Gelvonai (Giełwany) area as Lithuanian, while in reality Polish.