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Thread: On the Celticity of the Adriatic Veneti

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vesuvian Sky View Post
    The alphabets are certainly similar.

    Here are some Lepontic words:

    atos: borders
    artaus: gravestones
    eri-bogio:strong fighter
    iknos: son of
    karite: construct
    kelhx: erect, raise
    koneu: community?

    There are many more examples here:
    http://www.univie.ac.at/lexlep/index...from=katacinas

    Most seem to be names of things though.

    We'll have to compare some to Venetic as well.
    Very good. Do you know any sites with ancient Celtic and Venetic inscriptions. Regarding the Venetic language, I found this:

    The Venetic dative plural of ŏ-stems in (o)bos (e.g. lo.u.derobo.s, Este 26 ‘to/with (the) chil- dren’), for which Latin has īs (or eis in castreis), Oscan has ois and Umbrian has es, er (e.g. vesicles ‘vasculis’), has direct parallels in Celtiberian aŕecoŕaticuboś (Luzaga inscription), Le- pontic uvltiauiopos (Prestino) and Gaulish atrebo aganntobo (Plumergat), as already mentioned by Euler (1993: 100f.).
    Also, the Venetic genitive singular of ŏ-stems in i (i.e. ī) has direct correspondences in Celtic (cf. Euler 1993: 104), e.g. Gaulish Segomari, Dannotali (PN) as well as in Early Irish MAQI (Old Irish maic ‘filii’).
    The Venetic accusative singular of the 1st person pronoun mego was patterned on the nom.sg. ego with parallels outside Italic (cf. Gothic ik, mik, Hittite uk, ammuk etc.), whereas Italic presumably preserved the old forms (cf. Lat. mē, tē, sē). Also, the reflexive form SSEL- BOISSELBOI has a parallel in Old High German selbselbo in Notker’s translation of psalms (77,54 and 4,9), whereas Lat. ipse has Italic correspondences in Oscan es(s)uf and Umbrian esuf ‘ipse’. Both of the innovations in Venetic are justifiable on language-internal grounds as natu- ral processes, and parallels with Germanic may, but need not, point to contacts.
    In the realm of the verb, similarities with Celtic are quite significant in the s-preterite (e.g. Ven. vha.g.s.to ‘made’, dona.s.to ‘gave’, usually in the formula dona.s.to.dono.m. ‘gave (the) gift’), which has a correlate in the Celtic s-aorist (e.g. Old Irish 3rd sg. car (< *ā-s-t), 3rd pl. carsat (< *ā-s-nt), Ven. kara.n.mn.s. (cf. Lejeune 1974: 168), found also in Slavic. The occurrence of the s-preterite also with ā-conjugation verbs connects Venetic with Celtic, whereas Latin and Oscan have here s-perfects (e.g. Lat. dōnāvit, Oscan (d)uunated (cf. Euler 1993: 102).
    For the Venetic medio-passive voice in r (e.g.. Ven. tole.r dono.m ‘brought a gift’), the clos- est parallel is probably the Celtic deponent in Vr. Concerning the Venetic use as either depo- nent or active forms, signalized by Untermann (1980: 292f.), there are also Celtic parallels, since, e.g., the Old Irish deponent flexion fell together with the active flexion in the imperfect indicative, past subjunctive and secondary future, in the 2nd person plural of all tenses and moods, and in the 3rd person singular imperative (cf. Thurneysen 1946: 328).6
    According to Euler (1993: 105), it is morphology which gives the clearest answers con- cerning relations among languages. Our analysis presented above leads to the conclusion that Venetic is not only relatively archaic, but, on the basis of morphology, significantly similar to Celtic. On the phonological side, Venetic occupies an intermediate position, but the similarities with Italic may well have arisen as areal phenomena.
    The most interestig part:

    The question of Celtic and Venetic was raised by Eska & Wallace (1999) in connection with the Venetic inscription *Oderzo 7. Oderzo was a Venetic locality east of Padua; the inscription was found on a monument written in the Venetic alphabet. It consists of three names, the first two in the nominative, the third probably a genitive (relatively unusual for Venetic funerary inscriptions). The Oderzo 7 inscription runs as follows:

    padros . pompeteguaios kaialoiso

    By virtue of the absence of syllabic punctuation, this funerary inscription from the Venetic area was dated by Lejeune (1989: 71) as being not later than the middle of the fifth ct. BC. Eska & Wallace (1999) show that padros is in all likelihood a Gallicized borrowed name from Latin (possibly connected with the root for ‘4’, because of kw- > p and medial dr). Pompeteguaios is taken to be a fully Celtic epithet in the meaning of ‘quinquelingual’. Kaialoiso was analysed on the basis of the Lepontic suffix alo, employed in the formation of anthroponymic adjectives, and the ending iso as a Lepontic genitive of ŏ-stems. Thus padros betrays a Cisalpine Celtic sound substitution, pompeteguaios is broadly Celtic, kaialoiso is a Lepontic genitive, and the en- tire onomastic formula fits a well-known Celtic pattern (cf. Eska & Wallace 1999: 133).7
    There were apparently areal contact phenomena between Latin and Celtic, and this in- scription, identified as Celtic, was found in the traditionally Venetic area, written in the Venetic script

  2. #12
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    I can't find a good Venetic lexicon database unfortunately.

    Its hard fro me to tell based on phonological aspects regarding Venetic since it straddled the Latin and Celtic worlds. What's really interesting to me is how different insular Celtic became from Continental Celtic.

    I suppose the heavy Latin borrowing and subsequent Celtification of those words could work but its rather scant data for me to make a conclusive decision on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zmey Gorynych View Post
    Turan is not a one day/night passion. Time can not change the hearts and minds of tr00 Turan followers because Turan is limitless in time and space. Turan is not merely a racial classification, Turan is a state of mind, it is the path of the righteous and the doom of the wicked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vesuvian Sky View Post
    I can't find a good Venetic lexicon database unfortunately.

    Its hard fro me to tell based on phonological aspects regarding Venetic since it straddled the Latin and Celtic worlds. What's really interesting to me is how different insular Celtic became from Continental Celtic.

    I suppose the heavy Latin borrowing and subsequent Celtification of those words could work but its rather scant data for me to make a conclusive decision on.
    Since Venetic was sandwiched between Cisalpine Gaulish/Lepontic and Italic languages, it is acceptable that they shared similarities with both groups. The hypothesis we could make are:

    1) Venetics were a separate IE people, neither Celtic nor Italic, but influenced by both.
    2) Venetics were a Celtic people influenced by their non-Celtic neighbours.
    3) Venetics were a Italic people strongly influenced by their Celtic neighbours.

    Regarding the Insular Celtic languages, they are very different than Continental Celtic languages indeed. Sometimes I read Continental Celtic inscriptions and it has nothing to do with what I know about Insular Celtic (I have some knowledge of Welsh).
    Last edited by Smaug; 05-22-2013 at 11:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthropologique View Post
    Actually in Western Iberia a form of quilt, rather similar to what is worn in the British Isles, Brittany and Galicia / N. Portugal (Gallaecia) today, was used by Celtic warriors. Some tribes also used plaid or checkered pants. At apex, 70% of Iberia was Celtic.
    Actually I think I've heard of this before. NW Iberia had more of a "classical Celtic" image but not all of the Celtic speaking people of Iberia had exactly the same material culture.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zmey Gorynych View Post
    Turan is not a one day/night passion. Time can not change the hearts and minds of tr00 Turan followers because Turan is limitless in time and space. Turan is not merely a racial classification, Turan is a state of mind, it is the path of the righteous and the doom of the wicked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vesuvian Sky View Post
    Actually I think I've heard of this before. NW Iberia had more of a "classical Celtic" image but not all of the Celtic speaking people of Iberia had exactly the same material culture.
    Yes, the main Celtic archaeological sites in NW Iberia are those belonging to the Castros culture, in what is now modern Northern Portugal and Galicia:



    Actually some people even include the NW quarter of Iberia as one of the Celtic Nations:


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    I don't believe in the italic or rhaetian hypotesis...i think they were mostly a celtic population with an heavy indigenous substrate.

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    Stop Celticify Italians Uhtred! We all know your agenda.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XtraXavier View Post
    Stop Celticify Italians Uhtred! We all know your agenda.
    It isn't an agenda, it's a matter of fact (at least for the good side of the country ).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Romance_languages


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    the celtic nations are england, scotland, wales, ireland, france. The celts of iberia and italy were not real celts but native people (italic or ibero-mauritans) that learn gauls language and some traditions thanks to a good number of celtic dominator that settled their land. I think that today the genetic/cultural impact of celts in this nation (specially portugal) is very negligible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amour View Post
    the celtic nations are england, scotland, wales, ireland, france. The celts of iberia and italy were not real celts but native people (italic or ibero-mauritans) that learn gauls language and some traditions thanks to a good number of celtic dominator that settled their land. I think that today the genetic/cultural impact of celts in this nation (specially portugal) is very negligible.
    There weren't indigenous people here in the North except the villanovians and the kamunes.
    Italics arrived from ancien Hungary and the South was settled by greeks.




    The same R1b show perfectly the celtic genetic remnant


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