Mainland versus islander Greeks: Is there a phenotypic difference, or do they look the same?

[Hellenas]

Epirots are mostly Vlach origin.

Nope. There only some few places in Epirus where Vlachs live. Vlachs can be found mostly in Pindus.


Map of Balkans with regions inhabited by Aromanians in yellow

[Tauromachos]

Irrigardless, when we talk about islands, we talk about ALL islands. If he wants to speak about Aegean islander, he should say Aegean or South Aegean or whatever. Ionian islanders is also islanders.

+1 True!

And one reason why a brought this up also in my last post.

He can't. I have done it many times.

Yes,probably that's why he doesn't give more guesses and got angry with me because i disagreed with him
on how Greeks and Sicilians relate/compare.

But,you see if his theory about Greek phenotypes would be valid,he should be able to guess easily the exact origins of each
person in the set.

[Sikeliot]

It's not a matter of agree. Peloponnesians have no Levantine influence and Sicilians do.

[Tauromachos]

Islanders have more genetic connections with Anatolia

Only with Greeks from Anatolia and Anatolian people with Greek ancestry,with others not.
Except of this Islanders are most close to the rest of Greek people.

[Tauromachos]

Isnt Anatolia more Alpinid? Greeks in Epir and South have more long faces and rarely alpinid, and many times even Dinarid. Anatolian Greek is often Alpinid.

Epirus has Dinarics yes,and more so then other Greek places.

Longfaced is not a Dinaric trait,but more typical for Med types.

Dinarics are described as Brachiocephalic,not longfaced.

Mediteranean types can be both Mesocephalic and Dolichocephalic"longfaced".

The Minoans of Crete where often Dolichocephalic and they where clearly Meds

[kleenex]

Do mainland Greeks, such as Epirotes, Macedonians, Peloponnesians, etc. look noticeably distinct from Greek islanders (Cretans, Aegean islanders like Rhodes, Chios, etc.) by and large? Obviously there will be similar appearances some of the time since islanders do have ancestry from the mainland of Greece going back thousands of years.

But, do you think there is a difference?

I personally think, both from personal experience and from many pictures over the internet, that mainland Greeks have a significantly higher number of people who look generally "Balkanic" (Albanian, Bulgarian, Macedonian most notably but some even pan-Balkan) and a much lower amount of people who pass outside of Europe. I also find that in groups, I do not mistake mainland Greeks for southern Italians like I often can mistake say, Cretans for.

I agree with you. All of my genetic calculators have me clustering with either Northwestern Greeks, Albanians, Central Italians and/or Tuscans. I have very little affinity (genetically) with Island Greeks, Cretans, etc. This is no surprise to me having grown up with (and around) Dodecanese Greeks. Even when I attended Cretan affiliated dances (in the US) I felt different (phenotypically).This is not a judgment about appearance but a reality.

[Sikeliot]

I agree with you. All of my genetic calculators have me clustering with either Northwestern Greeks, Albanians, Central Italians and/or Tuscans. I have very little affinity (genetically) with Island Greeks, Cretans, etc. This is no surprise to me having grown up with (and around) Dodecanese Greeks. Even when I attended Cretan affiliated dances (in the US) I felt different (phenotypically).This is not a judgment about appearance but a reality.

Yes. Greeks from the mainland are closer to Italians from further north, Albanians, etc. There is a clear difference between their genes and those of people in places like Calabria, Sicily, Dodecanese, etc.

[kleenex]

Yes. Greeks from the mainland are closer to Italians from further north, Albanians, etc. There is a clear difference between their genes and those of people in places like Calabria, Sicily, Dodecanese, etc.

I do think it's a bit easier to notice these differences in the US since we (of particular regions in Greece) tend to gravitate. But as I explore my own genetic makeup (objectively) I've noticed that there is a clear Balkan connection.

[brennus dux gallorum]

It's not a matter of agree. Peloponnesians have no Levantine influence and Sicilians do.

I think that without Mena influence, Sicily would be identical to ionian islands, North euboia and very close to peloponnese/central Greece

What do you think?

I agree with you. All of my genetic calculators have me clustering with either Northwestern Greeks, Albanians, Central Italians and/or Tuscans. I have very little affinity (genetically) with Island Greeks, Cretans, etc. This is no surprise to me having grown up with (and around) Dodecanese Greeks. Even when I attended Cretan affiliated dances (in the US) I felt different (phenotypically).This is not a judgment about appearance but a reality.

It has to do with the part of peloponnese you are from. Some parts are clearly abruzzo like, but others are closer to the islands

[Sikeliot]

I think that without Mena influence, Sicily would be identical to ionian islands, North euboia and very close to peloponnese/central Greece

Well this is the difference on MDLP K23 between a Sicilian from a region with heavy MENA influence, and one from the southeast where such influences were few and the population never mixed with anyone not Italic or Greek. Let me know your thoughts. If you count early Greek input as "native" then this region has no foreign input worth mentioning and is more or less untouched since early times.

Not every Palermitan is this extreme either in their plotting but it shows the variance, you could never find a Syracusan like them.

Palermo:
# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 35.26
2 European_Early_Farmers 20.85
3 Near_East 13.15
4 North_African 8.97
5 South_Central_Asian 8.70
6 European_Hunters_Gatherers 8.58
7 East_African 1.81


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sephardic_Jew_ @ 5.407812
2 French_Jew_ @ 5.514675
3 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 5.906076
4 Turk_Jew_ @ 5.923426
5 Sicilian_West_ @ 6.577747
6 Italian_Jew_ @ 6.708899
7 Maltese_ @ 6.866210
8 Sicilian_East_ @ 7.081246
9 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 7.279457
10 Moroccan_Jew_ @ 7.428397
11 Cretan_ @ 7.700623
12 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 8.047595
13 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 8.409288
14 Syrian_Jew_ @ 9.822048
15 Romanian_Jew_ @ 9.871379
16 Ashkenazi_ @ 10.207126
17 Greek_Smyrna_ @ 10.305385
18 Sicilian_Center_ @ 10.980289
19 Libyan_Jew_ @ 11.195664
20 Turk_Balikesir_ @ 11.329981

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Sicilian_West_ +50% Syrian_Jew_ @ 3.240089



Syracuse:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasian 36.85
2 European_Early_Farmers 25.74
3 European_Hunters_Gatherers 12.50
4 Near_East 8.38
5 North_African 7.07
6 South_Central_Asian 6.72
7 South_East_Asian 1.80


Finished reading population data. 620 populations found.
23 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sicilian_Trapani_ @ 3.829459
2 Sicilian_West_ @ 4.306369
3 Sicilian_Siracusa_ @ 4.599115
4 Sicilian_Agrigento_ @ 4.975961
5 Sicilian_East_ @ 5.024581
6 Ashkenazi_Jew_ @ 5.173328
7 Maltese_ @ 5.616769
8 Ashkenazi_ @ 6.201211
9 Italian_Abruzzo_ @ 6.814727
10 French_Jew_ @ 7.395386
11 Romanian_Jew_ @ 7.539998
12 Sicilian_Center_ @ 7.747986
13 Italian_South_ @ 8.247808
14 Greek_Athens_ @ 8.763741
15 Cretan_ @ 8.923330
16 Central_Greek_ @ 9.458941
17 Greek_ @ 9.913497
18 Italian_Tuscan_ @ 10.039826
19 Greek_Peloponnesos_ @ 10.180323
20 Greek_Northwest_ @ 10.494715

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Jew_ +50% Greek_Northwest_ @ 3.494710