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Thread: Are the Finns the Mongolians of Europe?

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    Default Are the Finns the Mongolians of Europe?

    Are the Finns the Mongolians of Europe?

    Thursday, 13 November 2008 16:08
    By Edward Dutton

    Most people are surprised when they discover that until as recently as the 1960s it was widely accepted that the Finns originally came from Mongolia. But the Mongolian ‘Origins of the Finns’ is a controversial topic in Finland. The Western-looking academic elite have done all that they can to suppress it and academics that still contend that Finns have ‘Mongoloid origins’ are cast into the wilderness in a ferocious dispute.

    Until very recently, Finns were encouraged to see themselves either as ‘eastern’ or at least ‘between east and west.’ It was in the 1790, when Sweden ruled Finland, that German anthropologist J. F. Blumenbach compared Finnish, Sami (the Arctic reindeer herders) and Mongolian skulls and concluded that the Finns were ‘mongoloid’ and not ‘white’ like the Swedes or Finland’s Swedish-speaking aristocracy. This was widely accepted and led to the Turanian theory – that both the Finns and Sami had originally come from the East – as well as strengthening the view, according to Finland-Swede sociologist Nina af Enehjelm, that Finns were somehow ‘other’ and even ‘inferior.’ The ‘Mongoloid look’ is widely noted in Finland today and, there has been research that has compared Finnish religion and history to that of the Greenlandic and Finnish behaviour patterns to those of the Japanese.

    Finland-Swede linguist M. A. Castren added to this in 1840s when he investigated the Finnish language and tried to understand which languages were related to the seemingly isolated tongue. He found that Sami, Estonian and Hungarian were from the same family but so were a series of languages across Siberia such as Komi and Mari. And even languages like Mongolian and Greenlandic seemed to have a similar grammatical structure. This led to the ‘Migration Theory,’ arguing the Finns arrived in Europe from Mongolia around three thousand years ago and finally got to Finland 2000 years ago. The more recent discovery of genetics has added further evidence to the ‘Mongol’ claim. Geneticist Richard Kittles found in 1998 that Finns have ‘Dual Origins’ between Germanic and Mongoloid as measured by their ‘Y Chromosome Haplotype Variation.’ Other geneticists estimated that Finns have between 10 percent and a quarter mongoloid genes, more than any other European nation. Twenty-seven percent of Finns carry the eastern ‘Tat C’ marker compared to only seven percent in Norway.

    And in 2003, Slovenian geneticist Andrej Marusic observed that the Finnish propensity to alcoholism could be explained by the ADH22 gene ‘which is common in Eastern peoples but almost unheard of Europe.’

    There is, he argued, a ‘J Curve’ where this gene is found which parallels areas where Finnish (and related languages) are spoken. For Marusic, ‘this seems to substantiate the theory that the primary ancestors of Finno-Uralics are the Mongols. The Mongols have not traditionally consumed strong alcohol whereas Europeans have for thousands of years, developing a genetic resistance to it.’

    However, since a symposium in the 1980s it has become more common – especially in Finland – to argue that Finns are completely Western, with what is called the ‘Continuity Theory.’ According to this view, Finns are ‘Proto-European’ and arrived in Finland between 6000 and 11000 years ago and they arrived from the south. The Finnish ‘mongoloid look’ is explained by Finns being genetically isolated and so retaining the adaptations to the cold of the earliest Europeans. There is even an Estonian anthropologist who argues that the Migration occurred from West to East, making the Mongolians descendants of the Finns. But this new-found ‘European-ness’ has been especially convenient for the Finnish elite.

    According to Finnish anthropologist Pertti Anttonen, in his book Tradition Through Modernity, Finns are ‘insecure’ because of historical perceptions of their being ‘not European’ and so ‘inferior.’ He argues that, whatever the symposium concluded in the 1980s, until the 1990s Finland was under the influence of the Soviet Union so being a bit ‘eastern’ was useful. This was reflected in the English-language book about Finland, published every ten years or so by a Finnish publisher, called A History of Finland. From its first publication in 1963 up to 2003, Finns were described as partially ‘Eastern’ in some way. Suddenly in the 2003 addition, all discussion of the eastern origins was dropped from the book.

    Anttonen also highlights the work of Finnish historian Prof. Aira Kemiläinen. Now dead, she attempted to persuade Finns that they were ‘European.’ Of the Mongol look she claimed, ‘in fact this book does not exist in Finland’ without providing any evidence for its dismissal, branded academic opponents as ‘racists’, ignored the latest genetic scholarship and, bizarrely, attempted to argue that Finns should be seen as ‘European’ because they were ‘educated.’

    ‘Ideas of race and civilization are linked, as the “Western Genetic Heritage” of the Finnish population is used as an argument for Finland belonging to Western Civilization,’ summarises Anttonen. He felt that the book was more nationalistic than real scholarship but inexplicably it as published by the Finnish Literature Society, the main Finnish academic publisher.

    The Finnish Literature Society has long been criticised for being influenced by a Finnish nationalist agenda. Finland historian William Wilson argued in 1976 that the society was heavily influenced by extreme Finnish nationalism and that it published scholarship on the Finnish folklore epic Kalevala knowing that it reflected a nationalist agenda rather than what was justifiable. It was founded to promote Finnish literature back when Finnish was not even an official language in the, at that time, Russian Duchy and so the now government-funded publisher has always had some kind of nationalist agenda.

    And the current view with the Finnish elite is that Finns are Western. As Anttonen puts it, ‘The emphasis on the Western-ness of the Finns is a recent phenomenon’ rendering Finland’s joining the European Union a ‘return to Europe.’ This leaves those who still argue that Finns are originally from Mongolia in the academic wilderness,

    Prof. Kalevi Wiik cannot get his genetic work on Finnish origins published with the Finnish Literature Society despite it being published in international academic journals.

    ‘It would be impossible to publish with them,’ he says of the world’s dominant academic publisher on Finnish culture. ‘They don’t believe in the genetic view and they disregard the genetic facts.’

    Wiik recalls how his theories have been met with ‘anger. I kept a big file on it. I was accused of producing voodoo science in one newspaper article!’ He was also accused of having ‘right-wing supporters’ by another emotional critic.

    ‘The Finns have around a third Germanic genes, a third Baltic genes and a third genes from the east. These are the genetic facts!’ he insists, though the idea that Finnish babies have the ‘Mongol Spot’ seems to be exaggerated. Wiik also argues that Finnish men carry Mongoloid genes to a greater extent than Finnish women and that most of Europe must have spoken a Finnish-type language around the time of the last Ice Age with Finland retaining its language due to isolation from Indo-European invaders.

    But at the moment, Wiik’s views don’t seem to fit with how the Finnish academic establishment wants Finland to see itself. Kemiläinen’s book ignored his work completely and even Anttonen terms him ‘controversial.’ Finns were always told they were ‘between east and west’ but now, in the wake of the Cold War, they are being told they are ‘Western.’

    For 78 year-old the ferocity of the debate of Finland’s ‘Mongol origins’ proves, whatever Finland’s origins, that Finns are very insecure about whether or not they’re really European. ‘The idea that we Finns are Mongoloid is still with us,’ he says.

    Dr Edward Dutton is a British freelance journalist and academic based in Finland. He is currently finishing a book on Finnish culture called The Finnuit.
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    I Mongolians!! Must be my anatolian goat herder genes talking

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe View Post
    I Mongolians!! Must be my anatolian goat herder genes talking


    Hey there...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absinthe View Post
    I Mongolians!! Must be my anatolian goat herder genes talking
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89tCXxRoJbo
    & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wHbIWH_NGc


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xw9hizi5heM and finally the best, another goat herder
    Last edited by ikki; 09-20-2009 at 03:06 PM.

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    Twenty-seven percent of Finns carry the eastern ‘Tat C’ marker compared to only seven percent in Norway[
    Hi! At first I thought this thread must come from Hors, what a supprise.
    27% It's pretty much...is this source reliable? So maybe Gobineau was right, he wrote some nonsences(?) about Finnic-Mongols.

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    Hail the racial fetish!

    Furthermore, why should someone insist on being genetically 100% European (though it's not even clear what being "genetically European" truly means), with an aim of "justifying" their belonging to today's EU, the "west"? In other words, I don't understand someone's insistance in proving he is truly Zeropean.

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    eek "Hi! At first I thought this thread must come from Hors, what a surprise."

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmata View Post
    27% It's pretty much...is this source reliable?

    So maybe Gobineau was right, he wrote some nonsense (?) about Finnic-Mongols.
    do you refer to the oft-quoted sentence-fragment
    from
    The Inequality of Human Races:
    ...by the yellow [Mongolian race] the Altaic, Mongol, Finnish and Tartar branches.
    *
    Last edited by lei.talk; 07-12-2017 at 09:46 PM.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Vrykolakas View Post
    Hail the racial fetish!

    Furthermore, why should someone insist on being genetically 100% European (though it's not even clear what being "genetically European" truly means), with an aim of "justifying" their belonging to today's EU, the "west"? In other words, I don't understand someone's insistance in proving he is truly Zeropean.
    Its a old question as to where finland belongs after all the centuries of colonialism.

    its an anecdote, but here it is:
    "swedes we are not, russians we do not want to be, let us be finns."


    The finnish arms.

    Notice the lion is standing on a eastern sabre.. while striking with a straight western sword westwards aswell. I suppose americans would partially understand this with their rattler "step not onto me".
    The big difference being that for us those invasions and occasional near complete genocides are a very real thing.


    Anyway, lets be europeans is just the "russians we do not want to be" expressed.


    That said, when we head southwest, britain, france etc being the usual destinations... there is a great deal of culture shock.... ruins as in every building not in shining shape, trash littering the streets... and this means not just the occasional tossed paper (finns who see such will sometimes pick it up.. take to a trashcan... and give a verbal beating to the punk), no whole trashbags lie out there smelly and horrible.
    The real shocks with utter and complete disbelief come with walled in parks, that having fences around forests is somehow legal and the inability for a stranger to stand up for another.

    here i could mention that its way easier to get someone to house and feed you for free.. than get that person to give 1 euro

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    By Edward Dutton
    Ed Dutton is a pretentious anthropologist known for his bizarre conclusions that he draws from misinterpreting sources and using hearsay.

    Most people are surprised when they discover that until as recently as the 1960s it was widely accepted that the Finns originally came from Mongolia. But the Mongolian ‘Origins of the Finns’ is a controversial topic in Finland.
    It is not controversial in Finland, but it have been used as the blackjack against Finns by mainly Swedes in the late 19th and early 20th century to dismiss Finns as a non equal partner in politics.

    The ‘Mongoloid look’ is widely noted in Finland today and,
    Yeah sure... Mongoloids everywhere
    there has been research that has compared Finnish religion and history to that of the Greenlandic
    The only person I know of who have compared Finnish religion (whatever that is??) to Greenlanders is... Ed Dutton himself.

    The more recent discovery of genetics has added further evidence to the ‘Mongol’ claim.
    And what would that evidence be?
    Geneticist Richard Kittles found in 1998 that Finns have ‘Dual Origins’ between Germanic and Mongoloid as measured by their ‘Y Chromosome Haplotype Variation.’
    Here is Kittles report.
    http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...8&blobtype=pdf

    Quiz: Try to find Ed Duttons conclusion "between Germanic and Mongoloid ". The word mongoloid is not mentioned once in the report. It is Duttons invention. What the report concluded was that N1c as we know it today, arrived from the east.

    Other geneticists estimated that Finns have between 10 percent and a quarter mongoloid genes
    He is refering to Cavalli Sforza who said 10% Asian/siberian or whatever but never did he mention mongoloid. And Dutton is maybe also refering to old bloodsampling from early 70's which did not mention mongoloid either but "Siberian"

    Twenty-seven percent of Finns carry the eastern ‘Tat C’ marker compared to only seven percent in Norway.
    See what an idiot we are dealing with here?

    And in 2003, Slovenian geneticist Andrej Marusic observed that the Finnish propensity to alcoholism could be explained by the ADH22 gene ‘which is common in Eastern peoples but almost unheard of Europe.’
    ADH2 is a gene, although according to Wikipedia that's the old name for it, and it is now called ADH1B. It seems that ADH22 corresponds to a variant allele of rs1229984.

    Quote:
    Variants
    A single nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) in ADH1B is rs1229984, that changes arginine to histidine at residue 47.[3] The 'typical' variant of this has been referred to as ADH2(1) or ADH2*1 while the 'atypical' has been referred to as, e.g., ADH2(2), ADH2*2, ADH1B*47his, or ADH1B arg47-to-his. This SNP may be related to alcohol consumption with the atypical genotype having reduced risk of alcoholism.[4]
    Another SNP is Arg369Cys.[5]

    The text doesn't specify what the typical and atypical variant is. The HGDP Selection Browser shows that the ancestral allele for rs1229984 is C, while the derived value T is more common in Asians, so I take it that C is typical and T atypical.

    http://hgdp.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/alf...29984&imp=true

    Here is a more detailed frequency table for the allele variants of rs1229984 in different populations:

    http://alfred.med.yale.edu/alfred/Si...euid=SI000229N

    Finns don't seem to differ from other Europeans at least with respect to the allele frequencies of this SNP. According to the table, 98.8% to 100% of Finns have the ancestral C allele. So if this information is correct, it is impossible to tell how the ADH1B (ADH2) gene would point to a mongoloid origin of Finns.

    I wonder how Duttons logic works?

    There is, he argued, a ‘J Curve’ where this gene is found which parallels areas where Finnish (and related languages) are spoken. For Marusic, ‘this seems to substantiate the theory that the primary ancestors of Finno-Uralics are the Mongols. The Mongols have not traditionally consumed strong alcohol whereas Europeans have for thousands of years, developing a genetic resistance to it.’
    Marusic has made a study in 2003, about suicide not alcoholism:

    "The current state of knowledge of genetic predisposition towards the suicidal behavior allows for a question whether genetic risk factors account for the variation in suicide rates through time and space. Accordingly, the presented paper will attempt to tackle the genetics behind suicidal behavior from the perspective of the populational genetics. First, the variability of suicide rates across Europe is discussed. This is followed by a brief discussion of the J curve (on a map of Europe, the countries with a higher suicide rate form a so-called J curve, which starts in Finland and extends down to Slovenia), which maps on to the second principal component identified for European gene distribution, representing the ancestral adaptation to cold climates and the Uralic language dispersion. Furthermore, we will discuss whether the group of people living within the J-curve could share genes, which may not tolerate excessive amounts alcohol, the combination of which is more likely to end in suicidal behavior. Further along we list possible ways in which suicidal behaviour could have been selected for genetically in populations and identify those specific populations in which it may have appeared. Finally, we point at other locations in the world where a similar interplay of genes and environment has probably occurred, Greenland being the best example of the malignant interaction of alcohol consumption and the trait-like characteristics, which might constitute the vulnerability to suicidal behaviour."
    Duttons conclusion on the above: "For Marusic, ‘this seems to substantiate the theory that the primary ancestors of Finno-Uralics are the Mongols." I don't know how Dutton manages to do this but he does...

    The alcohol tolerance is connected with activity of alcohol dehydrogenases (a group of enzymes responsible for the breakdown of alcohol) in the liver, and in the bloodstream. High level of alcohol dehydrogenase activity results in fast transformation of ethanol to more toxic acetaldehyde. Such atypical alcohol dehydrogenase is less frequent in alcoholics than in nonalcoholics. Furthermore, among alcoholics, the carriers of this atypical enzyme consume lower ethanol doses, compared to the individuals without the allele.

    What does it mean?
    People of European decent on average has a high alcohol tolerance compared to persons of East Asian, Aboriginal Australian or Native American descent. This is related to an average higher body mass, but also to the prevalence of high levels of alcohol dehydrogenasis in the population. The high alcohol tolerance in Europeans and some other ethnic groups has probably evolved as a consequence of centuries of exposure to alcohol in established agricultural societies. .

    Dutton is so full of bizarre conclusions i really think he's on an agenda.
    Last edited by Motörhead Remember Me; 09-20-2009 at 07:16 PM.

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    Yet another one of these threads. Who cares?! Caucasians came from Central Asia anyhow.


    Only butthurted clowns minuses my posts. -- Лиссиы

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