Are the Finns the Mongolians of Europe?

[Motörhead Remember Me]

It is up to 72% rather. 65% on average.

58 % of Finnish males carry Haplotype N1c.

Which is a Eurasian Y-dna. Just as R1a is.

But this is science. "Pearls for swine"

[U R Face]

It's laughable to see the extent to which people will deny the evidence of genetics, history, anthropology, linguistics, and culture to reassure themselves that Finns are European. Failing that, some people conveniently 'forget' their politics and say embarrassing things like "Who cares if they're 39% Mongoloid!!??? What does it matt0r!?"

Whether you want Finns to be significantly Asiatic is irrelevant to whether they actually ARE Asiatic. And if you support unions (and naturally interbreeding) with Asiatics, as many in this thread do, then good for you. But please don't make any contrary statements in any other threads. I do dislike hypocrisy.

[Poltergeist]

What does it matter!"

Indeed. What does it matter?

[U R Face]

Indeed. What does it matter?

Well, that would of course depend on your values and concerns. To a Christian it wouldn't matter; we're all people. To a liberal, it wouldn't matter; all genes are equal. To me it matters, because I dislike race mixing. To Swedes and Norwegians it matters, because Finns and related populations are responsible for injecting an Asiatic strain into their population. To science, it matters, because science strives to establish truth. I doubt Newton received the same defensive "WhAT R DuZ it maTt0r!!!" reaction from his peers. Scientific inquiry shouldn't be restrained by petty emotionalism.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

It's laughable to see the extent to which people will deny the evidence of genetics, history, anthropology, linguistics, and culture to reassure themselves that Finns are European.

There are enough "evidence of genetics, history, anthropology, linguistics, and culture" that confirms what everyone with eyes and a functioning brain clearly can see:
Finns are white, caucasoid and non asiatic Europeans just like all other Europeans.
To say the contrary is to mock intelligence.

If you have any evidence whatsoever to prove your ridiculous claim about Finns bring them on.

Failing that, some people conveniently 'forget' their politics and say embarrassing things like "Who cares if they're 39% Mongoloid!!??? What does it matt0r!?"

What are you talking about ? Born after Tchernobyl or something?

Whether you want Finns to be significantly Asiatic is irrelevant to whether they actually ARE Asiatic. And if you support unions (and naturally interbreeding) with Asiatics, as many in this thread do, then good for you. But please don't make any contrary statements in any other threads. I do dislike hypocrisy.

Hipocrisy is the fact that there are some 20 million people in Russia who carry N1c... What makes them "more European" and "less Asiatic" than Finns..? LOL!

Clearly you don't like Finnish people and it is fine with me another fact is that U R Face is a troll account: Purpose to support Hors (maybe it is Hors?) and his inferiority complex. The worlds largest socioeconomic gap is between Finland and Russia. There are only two people who have killed as many Russians as the Finns have, Germans (WWII) and ..yes.. that's right... Russians themselves.
I guess it hurts. It hurts so much Hors who have to resort to 19th century "science" like Gobineau; the mad frenchman.

Moderator!!!

[Brännvin]

Moderator!!!

Who wtf is UR Face? PTG?

[Poltergeist]

Well, that would of course depend on your values and concerns. To a Christian it wouldn't matter; we're all people. To a liberal, it wouldn't matter; all genes are equal. To me it matters, because I dislike race mixing. To Swedes and Norwegians it matters, because Finns and related populations are responsible for injecting an Asiatic strain into their population. To science, it matters, because science strives to establish truth. I doubt Newton received the same defensive "WhAT R DuZ it maTt0r!!!" reaction from his peers. Scientific inquiry shouldn't be restrained by petty emotionalism.

There is some emotionalism in your concern with "race mixing", however.

And what is race? To the best of my knowledge, it's usually associated with overt phenotypic characteristics, not with such abstractions like statistics of the distribution of certain haplogroups in the population. This obsession with genetics is much more irrelevant than the old style racialism, which was concerned with skin colour, skull shape and similar. Because this older racialism has at least some basis in the visual experience. Whereas this new genetic craze is totally abstract and meaningless.

"Scientific truth"? Regarding this, I rather stand with Feyerabend who says that scientific truth(s), allegedly established by scientists, shouldn't be arbiters in social matters, that is, if some scientific view conflicts with the common sense, then priority should be geiven to the latter. And modern science hasn't even pretence to discover some definite truths, but just "highly (or less) probable hypotheses".

And btw: if these genetic findings were to be taken really seriously, even on the supposition that something like haplogroup distribution really mattered for the national identity (and I don't think it does), research should be made on all Finns, not on some small sample.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

For once I had to admit to being wrong...

I said there were 20 million Russians that carry N1c. I was maybe thinking that there are estimates that around 25-30 million Russians are descendants of various Finno Ugrian peoples. Most of them in north Russia, so I guess that out of 115 million Russians some 25-30 million are ok and actually do work hard, have some sort of morale and pride...

What does Uke boy and Hors dig this?

Russians:
total population: approx. 115,889,107 in Russia (Russian Census of 2002)
approx. 145,031,551 worldwide (Ethnologue 2005)
approx. 137,000,000 worldwide (Wikipedia article on "Russians")
N1c frequency: 161/1119 = 14.39% (total of all Russian Y-DNA data from Rosser et al. 2000, Wells et al. 2001, Derenko et al. 2007, Karafet et al. 2002, and Central Russian Y-DNA data from Balanovsky et al. 2008)
total N1c individuals: approx. 8,336,973 in Russia
approx. 10,433,458 worldwide (following Ethnologue 2005 estimate)
approx. 9,855,675 worldwide (following Wikipedia estimate)

Ukrainians:
total population: approx. 39,441,842 (Ethnologue 2005 total for all countries)
N1c frequency: 19/224 = 8.48% (total of all Ukrainian data from Rosser et al. 2000, Semino et al. 2000, Varzari 2006, and Kharkov et al. 2004)
total N1c individuals: approx. 1,672,757

More than in Finland. Don't throw stones in glasshouse...

[Motörhead Remember Me]

There is some emotionalism in your concern with "race mixing", however.

And what is race? To the best of my knowledge, it's usually associated with overt phenotypic characteristics, not with such abstractions like statistics of the distribution of certain haplogroups in the population. This obsession with genetics is much more irrelevant than the old style racialism, which was concerned with skin colour, skull shape and similar. Because this older racialism has at least some basis in the visual experience. Whereas this is totally abstract and meaningless.

"Scientific truth"? Regarding this, I rather stand with Feyerabend who says that scientific truth(s), allegedly established by scientists, shouldn't be arbiters in social matters, that is, if some scientific view conflicts with the common sense, then priority should be geiven to the latter. And modern science hasn't even pretence to discover some definite truths, but just "highly (or less) probable hypotheses".

And btw: if these genetic findings were to be taken really seriously, even on the supposition that something like haplogroup distribution really mattered for the national identity (and I don't think it does), research should be made on all Finns, not on some small sample.

A haplogroup is a haplogroup only and does not tell anything else than millions and millions of people share a common ancestor 5-10-15 or 20 000 years back.
To read in ethnicity in a haplogroup is incorrect.

[U R Face]

There are enough "evidence of genetics, history, anthropology, linguistics, and culture" that confirms what everyone with eyes and a functioning brain clearly can see:
Finns are white, caucasoid and non asiatic Europeans just like all other Europeans.
To say the contrary is to mock intelligence.

The East Baltid type, which by definition is partially Uralid, is among the most frequently encountered types in NE Europe, particularly Finland. The distribution of the E. Baltid type correlates significantly with Tat-C, a (fairly recent) Siberian marker.

If you have any evidence whatsoever to prove your ridiculous claim about Finns bring them on.

What was ridiculous? That Finns have Asiatic ancestry? That they've had extensive historical interaction with Uralics? That they speak a Uralic language? That Uralic types are common in Finland? I don't believe a single one of those claims is controversial. Even the guy in the OP admits that 1/3 of Finnish genes are 'from the East'.

What are you talking about ? Born after Tchernobyl or something?

No, Tchernobyl was born in my face and came out of my ears.

Hipocrisy is the fact that there are some 20 million people in Russia who carry N1c... What makes them "more European" and "less Asiatic" than Finns..? LOL!

I don't think I did say that.

Clearly you don't like Finnish people and it is fine with me another fact is that U R Face is a troll account: Purpose to support Hors (maybe it is Hors?) and his inferiority complex. The worlds largest socioeconomic gap is between Finland and Russia. There are only two people who have killed as many Russians as the Finns have, Germans (WWII) and ..yes.. that's right... Russians themselves.
I guess it hurts. It hurts so much Hors who have to resort to 19th century "science" like Gobineau; the mad frenchman.

Moderator!!!

I don't have a problem with Finns. I do have a problem with irrationality. I've seen this topic quite often, and the outcome is always the same. People simply can't digest the truth when it crosses a certain boundary. I'm just helping them come to terms with reality.