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Thread: Do Catholics and Mohammedans worship the same God?

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    Default Do Catholics and Mohammedans worship the same God?

    Do Catholics and Muslims worship the same God?
    By Raymond Taouk

    “The holy universal Church teaches that it is not possible to worship God truly except in her" - Pope Gregory XVI [1]


    The false notion that all religions who give homage to a deity of any sort somehow worship the true "God" but simply "under another form" is one that is presently being propagated in order lead the Church down the smooth path of apostasy in the name of ecumenism.


    The Catholic position on this is precisely opposed to this proposition, which is set forth by the modernist element in the Catholic hierarchy today.

    Objectively:


    From a purely objective point of view, regardless of the doctrinal teaching professed by Mohammedans and Catholics, it is evident that Almighty God is the God over both. God exists. His existence is not dependent on the acknowledgement of mankind that He exists. Nor is God's existence dependent upon any religion. He is the Creator and the Providence of the Universe: the whole of creation, the entire cosmos, of all existing things, whether they be angels, human beings, animals or plants, animate or inanimate. He is also the Savior and the Judge of the living and the dead, having redeemed mankind and must judge Catholics and Mohammedans, believers and atheists. Their god is but another strange god. On every essential point concerning the true God and the nature of the true God, the Mohammedan belief radically and seriously conflicts with the established and revealed Dogma of the Catholic Church.

    Subjectively:


    Again from a purely subjective thinking the Muslims might think and believe with a firm confidence that they are worshiping the true God, "Allah" yet the reality is quite the contrary as objectively speaking we can only affirm the contrary. This point is clear from Scripture "Whosoever does not continue in the doctrine of Christ does not have God". - II St. Jn 1:9


    The teaching and the beliefs of Catholicism and Mohammedanism are different and contrary. Their concept of, and their approach to God, diverge and conflict. Catholics indeed accept as dogmatic truth the Holy Trinity, the Incarnation and the Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. Moslems vehemently and vociferously deny the Blessed Trinity [2], the Incarnation [3], the Crucifixion of our Divine Lord and the Divinity of Christ [4]. The Mohammedans have such a carnal notion of heaven that St. Alphonsus did not hesitate to declare "The Mohammedan Paradise, is only fit for beasts; for filthy sensual pleasure is all the believer has to expect there." [5]


    The Catholic and Christian God is 'The Trinity,' and our Lord Jesus Christ, the second Person of that Trinity, is the Creator and One true and merciful God. Despite monotheistic appearances, we do not have the same God; we do not have the same mediator. How then can it be that " together with us they (The Moslems) adore the one, merciful God." [6] This is incredible!

    The Catholic Teaching: "Without faith it is impossible to please God." - Heb. 11:6


    Mohammedans are infidels for "broadly speaking, infidels are those who do not possess the true faith; while in the strict sense infidels are the un-baptized"[7]. They are divided into monotheists (Jews and Moslems), polytheists (Hindus, Buddhists, etc.), and atheists.


    From a Catholic perspective the Islamic worship is another form of false worship given to a "strange god" for as we read in scripture "All the gods of the Nations are Idols" - I Para 16:26


    It would be blasphemous to declare that these false religions are the working of God. On the Contrary ''all faithful disciples of Jesus Christ well know that the false religions are only instruments of the devil to deceive souls and place them beyond Salvation" - [8a]


    Pope Pius X long ago put forward that the modernist if they take logically there doctrine, would have no grounds for denying the Muslims there "experience" of " god" as being just as valid as that of another "believer" and hence he states:

    "Here it is well to note at once that, given this doctrine of experience united with that of symbolism, every religion, even that of paganism, must be held to be true. What is to prevent such experiences from being found in any religion? In fact, that they are so is maintained by not a few. On what grounds can Modernists deny the truth of an experience affirmed by a follower of Islam? [8b]


    What a prophetic insight, Pope Pius X was so accurate that not even the Modernist came to deny what he stated, but only affirm the above with great audacity.
    The Baltimore Catechism (No. 3) states as follows:

    Q. 1148. How do we offer God false worship?

    A. We offer God false worship by rejecting the religion He has instituted and following one pleasing to ourselves, with a form of worship He has never authorized, approved or sanctioned.


    Islam clearly comes under the notion of false worship that (objectively speaking) is not

    render to God.


    The psalmist tells us that "All the Gods of the Gentiles are Devils" (Psalm 96:5) and hence to whom do they render their worship? The Scriptures tell us clearly " They provoked him by strange gods, and stirred him up to anger, with their abominations. They sacrificed to devils and not to God: to gods whom they knew not: that were newly come up, whom their fathers worshipped not. " (Deut 32:16- 17 Cf. also Baruch 4:7)
    They "sacrificed to devils and not to God" - regardless of whether or not they might have believed they were rendering homage to the True God, the reality is quite the contrary! It is an erroneous proposition to qualify a prayer addressed to the devil as authentic prayer.


    Islam is a false Religion. A false religion is any non-Christian religion "in so far as it is not the religion that God revealed and wants to see practiced. Moreover, every non-Catholic Christian sect is false in so far as it neither accepts nor faithfully practices the entire content of Revelation." [9]


    Christ tells us who the true worshipers shall be: "But the hour cometh and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth." (Jn. 4:23).
    These words go directly against the terminology now used by the modernist hierarchy. They speak from a subjective position wishing to dogmatize and "opinion" which goes directly against the mind of the Church on this point.


    This religious subjectivism, which she has always condemned under the names of indifferentism or latitudinarianism, and which "seeks to justify itself under the pretended claims of liberty, failing to recognize the rights of objective truth which are made manifest either by the lights of reason or by Revelation." [10]


    This subjectivism only leads to that Religious indifferentism, which is "one of the most deleterious heresies" and which "places all religions on an equal footing," inevitably leads one to consider the truth of religious belief as merely a matter of utility for a well-regulated life.... "One ends by considering religion as an entirely individual thing which can be adapted to the dispositions of each one, letting everyone form his own personal religion, and by concluding that all the religions are good even though they contradict each other." [11]


    The Church is not concerned with the subjective dispositions of men. This is for God to Judge. The Church is concerned with objective facts. Her judgments are objective. Pope St. Pius X, for this reason declared that "those who die as infidels are damned." [11a]


    1907 “In answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved,wrote:’It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned.’ ”


    Revelation is a reality, a fact, a truth accredited by God by sure signs. This revelation of God can in no way be placed on the same footing as those erroneous beliefs of infidels. We may say that the Mohammedans worship a false god, the god of their own making, which a deviation from the right worship of the true God.
    Further we might rightly ask with St. Paul, "How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed?" - Rom 10: 14


    Although the modern terminology used might not seem to be "explicitly heretical" in nevertheless leads one down this path to apostasy. This vague terminology, which has been employed to put forward an erroneous notion of the faith so that we may be deceived along the path of syncretism. Yves Marsaudon, in his book Ecumenism as seen by a Traditional Freemason, commented favorably on the ecumenism that was nurtured at Vatican II. He said:


    "Catholics and especially the conservatives must not forget that all roads lead to God. And they will have to accept that this courageous idea of free-thinking, which we can really call a revolution, pouring forth from our Masonic lodges has spread magnificently over the dome of Saint Peter’s." [12]


    This is precisely path of deception to which the enemies of the Church hope to direct her. For this reason St. Pius X, who could see where this disorientation in precise terminology was leading, required every would-be Catholic priest to recite the following words at the feet of his Ordinary:

    "I condemn and reject premises from which it follows that dogmas are either false or doubtful".[13]


    The Council of Florence, clearly sets down the four notes of heresy as follows:


    1) a pertinacious adherence to teachings expressly contradictory to that which has been defined by the Church;
    2) an opinion opposed to a doctrine not explicitly defined by the Church nor clearly proposed dogmatically as an article of Faith;
    3) a proposition that, although not directly contradictory to the Faith, nonetheless necessarily entails logical consequences against it; and
    4) a speculation which reaches a certain degree of probability of being against the Faith.


    The Modernist's in using these subjective terms to formulate their erroneous notions that "We together with the Muslims worship the same God" go directly against the above statements of the Council of Florence. This formulation works directly against the Churches dogma "Outside the Church there is No Salvation" [14]


    Pope Leo XIII, affirms in his encyclical "Satis Cognitum": "Nothing is more dangerous than the heretics who, while conserving almost all the remainder of the Church's teaching intact, corrupt with a single word, like a drop of poison, the purity and the simplicity of the faith which we have received through tradition from God and through the Apostles."


    Although it is true to say that the reason that those outside the Church are not saved is not purely because they worship a false 'god' nevertheless there is still a clear connection. When Christ states, "No one comes to the Father but through me" (Jn. 14:6), this precisely means, if you don't posses Christ, you can't posses the Father (God) for Christ is that door to the Father. Hence without Christ there is no salvation from God. The relation is evident. Again this is confirmed by St. Irenaeus who wrote, "Thus, without the Holy Spirit, we cannot see the Word of God; and without the Son no one can go to the Father." [15a]


    The only authentic prayer is true prayer addressed to the true God. Pope Leo XIII declares without hesitation that "the fitting and devout worship of God, which is to be found chiefly in the divine sacrifice and in the dispensation of the sacraments, as well as salutary laws and discipline . . . The (Catholic) Church alone offers to the human race that religion"[15b]


    Pope Pius XI declares the same saying that "In her (the Catholic Church) alone is Christ believed with a faith whole and entire, worshiped with sincere homage of adoration, and loved with the constant flame of ardent Charity" [15c]

    What happened to the 1st Commandment?


    I am the Lord thy God...Thou shalt not have strange gods before me....Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them..." (Ex. 20:2-5).


    If all religions worship the true God by simply claiming to be doing so, then one could not violate the 1st Commandment since all worship of any “god” would be tantamount to worshiping the true "God" according to the post the modernist element in the hierarchy, yet this would not only render the 1st Commandment obsolete but make it seem as though God had given us and absurd command. God does not command anything in vain.


    The first commandment is not optional. A man cannot worship in any way that which he does not believe in, for the Law of Praying determines the law of

    believing, and vice-versa. If Mohammedans believe in a one-person deity, that is what they worship, and in no way can we logically argue that they worship with us the Holy Trinity.


    We are not unfamiliar with the notion that claims that they implicitly worship the trinity, yet we cannot maintain this from an objective stand point for the simple reason that we can not hold that one worships implicitly what he explicitly rejects.


    In our day and age it is often too easily forgotten that all non-Catholic worship is offensive to God and clearly violates the first commandment. This is because the "first commandment may be broken by giving to a creature the honor which belongs to God alone or by false worship." [16a]


    The Church has always regarded the worship of Non Catholics as mere acts of superstitions since "there are four kinds of superstition, namely, illegitimate worship of the true God, idolatry, divination, and superstitious practices. The first consists in a false worship, though applied to the living God; for instance, if you worship Him (God) according to the Mosaic law, which is contrary to all the precepts of the Gospel; or if you adopt a new religion in opposition to the doctrine if the universal Church." [16b] Hence it is clear that "any public worship of the true God, outside the Catholic Church constitutes a superstitious worship of God as no other Church is authorized to give public worship to God. [16c]


    Religion has an intellectual foundation, that is, it is based on knowledge. To be true religion its basis must be truth. The basis must be true both speculatively and practically. In other words, true religion must be based on a correct knowledge of God as existing and worthy of all honor, and of the manner and obligation of worshipping Him. On the other hand, religion is false if what is not God is considered to be God, and worshipped as God, or if there is error in the worship of the true God. Therefore, God is not truly worshipped when erroneous signs are used in His worship, as those of the Jews, or when superfluous ceremonies are employed, as by pagans and may heretics. [16d]
    Although subjectively, it is the virtue of religion which prompts a man to render to God the worship and reverence that is His by right. [16e]


    It is to be noted that an act based on a false religion cannot be really an act of virtue. For a virtue requires a morally good work. But in the cult (worship) of a false god, or in the false and superstitious worship of the true God, there can be no moral goodness, since such worship is opposed to right reason. [16f]
    St. Pope Pius X, truly the Pope of our Age, could see where such absurd reason of the Modernists was leading the Church as he affirmed:

    "... a great movement of apostasy being organized in every country for the establishment of a One-World Church which shall have neither dogmas, nor hierarchy, nor discipline for the mind, nor curb for the passions, and which, under the pretext of freedom and human dignity, would bring back to the world the reign of legalized cunning and force, the oppression of the weak, and of those who toil and suffer." [17a]
    True ecumenism with the Muslims


    "Those who have learned theology well," says St. Basil, “will not allow even one iota of Catholic dogmas to be betrayed. They will, if necessary, willingly undergo any kind of death in their defense." [17b]


    One of the greatest frauds presented to us by a great number of the current hierarchy is the false notion of ecumenism, which in reality is not ecumenism but simple "syncretism" going by the name of "ecumenism. True Ecumenism requires all those outside the Church to come to the Ark of Salvation so that they may not perish.


    True ecumenism can be effectively defined as follows:

    "The unity of Christians cannot otherwise be obtained than by securing the return of the separated to the one true Church of Christ from which they once unhappily withdrew. To the one true Church of Christ, we say, that stands forth before all and that by the will of its Founder will remain forever the same as when He Himself established it for the salvation of all mankind." [18]
    This has been the constant teaching of the Church. Holy Mother Church has always taught that true unity cannot be effected, except by a unity in faith and government. [19]


    Pope Pius IX condemned in his syllabus of errors the following false notions:


    "Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true." (Proposition XV).


    "Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation and arrive at eternal salvation." (Proposition XVI).


    The real problem with this false ecumenism (which lead to indifferentism) is not only the fact that Catholics are being deceived but in the same process so are the infidels and non-believers and they sadly continue on the road to perdition without being told to recant their errors.


    Catholics often forget that those faithful living on earth come under the title of "Church Militant". What is a Catholic who does not confess his faith or worse yet a Catholic who does not believe his faith?


    St. Peter Canisius puts it this way: "Who is to be called a Christian? He who confesses the doctrine of Christ and His Church. Hence, he is truly a Christian thoroughly condemns and detests, the Jewish, Mohammedan, and the heretical cults and sects." [20]


    What did St. Peter Mavimenus tell the Mohammedans? Did he say, "We worship the same God, all is well" No! He told them the truth, he put it this way to them "Whoever does not embrace the Catholic Christian religion will be damned, as was your false prophet Mohammed." [21]


    Again we read that Blessed Nicholas Tavilich was just as stern as he openly states, "You Mohammedans are in a state of everlasting damnation. Your Koran is not God's law nor is it revealed by Him. Far from being a good thing, your law is utterly evil. It is founded neither in the Old Testament nor in the New. In it are lies, foolish things, buffooneries, contradictions, and much that leads not to virtue and goodness but to evil and to all manner of vice." [22]
    St. Alphonsus attests to the fact how the Holy Monk St. Goerge of San Saba openly confessed to the Mohammedans: "But the holy monk (St. George of San Saba) having declared that Mahomet was a disciple of the devil, and that his followers were in a state of perdition, he also was condemned (to martyrdom) with his companions." [23]


    The same we read in the testimony of the five disciples of St. Francis of Assisi, who when reproached by the followers of Koran for preaching against Mohammed, simply responded by saying "We have come to preach faith in Jesus Christ to you, that you will renounce Mohammad, that wicked slave of the devil, and obtain everlasting life like us" [23a]


    Further we read in the life of St. John Vianney how he stated openly to a Protestant who believed that his worship rendered to God should do him just as well in his Protestant Sect as it would have in the Catholic faith, The Saint responded to him with the contrary advice saying "My friend, there are not two ways of serving Our Lord; there is only one good way, and it is to serve Him as He wishes to be served".[24]


    This is the truth we must speak in charity and honesty to these lost souls who without the grace and redemption of Christ can't be saved for By nature, men are "children of wrath" (Eph. 2:3); by Him, we have been reconciled with the Father (Col. 1:20), and it is only by faith in Him that we can have the boldness to approach God with entire confidence (Eph. 3:12). To Him was given all power in heaven and on earth (Mt. 28:18), and at His name every knee must bend, in heaven, on earth, and under the earth (Phil. 2:10,11). No one goes to the Father save by Him (Jn. 14:6), and there is no other name under heaven given to man by which he must be saved (Acts 4:12). He is the Light that enlightens every man who comes into the world (Jn.1:9), and whoever does not follow Him wanders in darkness (Jn. 8:12). Who is not with Him is against Him (Mt. 13:30), and who does not honor Him also dishonors His Father who sent Him (as the Jews do) (Jn. 5:23).


    Christ says, " Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No I tell you but division?" With the truth, division must come. This should not dishearten the man of God for "If God is for us, who is against us" - Rom 8:31

    Salvation and Ignorance- “He that doth not believe is already judged." Jn, 3:18; Mk 16:16


    Primarily it is important to we keep in mind that no one is save by ignorance, if anything we must boldly affirm the very opposite. Pope St. Pius X clearly affirms this saying: “We are forced to agree with those who hold that the chief cause of the present indifference and, as it were, infirmity of soul, and the serious evils that result from it, is to be found above all in ignorance of things divine. And so, Our Predecessor Benedict XIV had just cause to write: “We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.” [25]


    St. Thomas Aquanis States " But through unbelief man is separated most from God: because he has no true knowledge of God. Nor can anyone in any way know God who holds a false opinion of Him" [26]


    Although the Church makes a distinction between voluntary infidels in which one knowingly rejects the faith and involuntary infidels in which the offender is ignorant of the true faith.


    Those who are not guilty of the sin of infidelity, but commit other grievous sins, are all those un-baptized persons who never had an opportunity of knowing the true religion, or of becoming aware of the obligation of seeking and embracing it, but who do not live up to the dictates of their conscience. This class of infidels will be lost, not on account of their infidelity, which was no sin for them, but on account of other grievous sins, which they committed against their conscience. "For whosoever have sinned without the law," says Saint Paul, "shall perish without the law." [27]


    In fact, the infidels who are not lost because of the sin of incredulity, that is, by the sin of not having believed in Christ about whom they never knew anything, are lost by their other sins, the remission of which cannot be given to anyone without the true faith. Those infidels who are not guilty of the sin of infidelity and are faithful in obeying the voice of their conscience, Saint Thomas Aquinas says: "If anyone was brought up in the wilderness or among brute beasts, and if he followed the law of nature to desire what is good, and to avoid what is wicked, we should certainly believe that God, by an inward inspiration, would reveal to him what he should believe, or would send someone to preach the Faith to him, as He sent Peter to Cornelius."


    Further Fr. Michael Müller, C.SS.R in dealing with the issue states: "A Mohammedan is taught by his conscience that it would be a crime to believe in Jesus Christ, and not believe in Mahomet; will this impious conscience save him? The Scripture assures us that 'there is no other name given to men under heaven by which we can be saved,' but the name of Jesus only; and 'he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remaineth on him." [28]


    This should not surprise us since "what can be more contrary to reason than to be an infidel and not care to be under the sentence of eternal damnation" [29] Yes it is wholly against reason to place our faith in the testimony of a deceiver and murder as Mohammed manifested himself to have been. For this reason St. Thomas says "those who place faith in his (Mohammed's) words believe foolishly" [30]


    Without the faith they can't be saved. Our Lord Jesus Christ is not optional.

    Attendance at Islamic and Non-Catholic Worship


    The abomination, which the Church has had from the very beginning for association of Catholics in the worship of Non Catholics [31], is evident from the words of St. John "If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house, or say to him Welcome" - II John 1:10


    Suarez (one of the greatest amongst the Jesuits theologians) affirms that the reason the Apostle gives for this prohibition is verified in religious communication especially, because he, who unites himself with those outside the Church in religious worship, communicates in their wicked works. [32]


    A Catholic who communicates formally in the worship of Non Catholics sins grievously against the virtue of Religion, as a false exercise of it. [33] For this reason "One is never allowed to cooperate formally in something which is intrinsically wrong objectively." [34]


    St. Augustine, the great Champion of Catholic orthodoxy, reproves both actual and simulated communication in non-Catholic worship. In a letter to St. Jerome he states that one who observes the rites of Jews, or Gentiles, not only truly, but even fictitiously, has fallen into the abyss of the devil. [35]


    The mind of the Church on this point was enshrined in old Code of Canon Law (1917), which stated that: " It is not permitted at all for the faithful to assist in any active manner at or to have any part in the worship of non-Catholics." [36]


    All subsequent moral theology works have simply reiterated the same point. [37]
    Pius XI in dealing with this issue that was so vehement in his own day had only the following to say "Certainly such movements as these cannot gain the approval of Catholics. They are founded upon the false opinions of those who say that, since all religions equally unfold and signify- though not in the same way - the native, inborn feeling in us all through which we are borne toward God and humbly recognize His rule, therefore, all religions are more or less good and praiseworthy. The followers of this theory are not only deceived and mistaken, but since they repudiate the true religion by attacking it in its very essence, they move step by step toward naturalism and atheism. Hence it clearly follows that anyone who gives assent to such theories and undertakings utterly abandons divinely revealed religion. " [38]


    The Church can never lawfully grant to Catholics permission to participate formally in non-Catholic worship. In dealing those who claim they have been given ecclesiastical permission to participate in the ceremonial rites of non Catholics Fr. Michael Muller in his well known work, "God the Teacher of Man Kind" aptly answers the question by stating "Neither any priest nor bishop, nay, not even the Pope, can give you permission to violate any of the commandments." [39]


    It has been rashly stated the Mohammedans and other infidels adore the same God "together with us" [40] yet not only is this undoubtibly offensive to Catholic doctrine (as we have shown above) but it shows forth an ignorance of Islamic notion of God and their absurd doctrines. Mohammedans don't pray to their god, together with us, they pray to their false god against us! The Quran is explicit on this point as it openly states: "The Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before, may Allah destroy them, how they have turned away." [41]


    Ultimately we can do no better than assume to ourselves the advice of the Apostle of the Gentiles (St. Paul) himself"Bear not the yoke with unbelievers. For what participation hath justice with injustice? Or what fellowship hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? Or what part hath the faithful with the unbeliever? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols?" - II Cor. 6: 14-18.

    Foot Notes:


    1Pope Gregory XVI - Summo Jugiter Studio, May 27, 1832
    2. Sura iv. 171
    3. Sura xxiii. 91
    4. Sura iv, 157 and Sura v. 78.
    5. St. Alphonsus de Liguori, History of Heresies, Vol. 1., ch. vii., art. 1.
    6. Lumen Gentium, 16. Vatican Council II.,
    7. - Roberti-Palazzini, Dizionario di teologia morale, p.813. Cf. Also A Compendium of St. Thomas's Theology, by Fr. E. O' Donnell, Vol. II, Dublin 1859, Pg. 21
    8a.St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians, VIII:2
    8b. Pascendi, Sept. 8, 1907,
    9. Roberti-Palazzini, Dizionario di teologia morale, p.813.
    10.Dizionario de teologia morale, p.805.
    11. Dizionario de teologia morale, p.805.
    11a. The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, Pope St. Pius X, 1907 “In answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote: ' It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned.' - The reason for this is as we previously mention. The Church judges the Objective facts and not the subjective dispositions of Men!
    12.Lefebvre; Open Letter to Confused Catholics, Fowler Wright Books Ltd., Herefordshire, England, 1986, p. 106.
    13.Oath Against Modernism
    14. This dogma has been affirmed many times over by the Churches Magesterium. It has been affirmed by Pope Innocent III (DS423), The IV Lateran Council (DS 430), Pope Boniface VIII (DS 468), The Council of Florence (DS 714), Pius IX (DS1647), Pope Clement VI (DS 5706), The Council of Trent (DS 861).
    15a. THE FAITH OF CATHOLICS, The Introduction, by Frs. Joseph Berington and John Kirk, rev. Fr. James Waterworth, San Marino, CA: Victory Publications, 1985.
    15b. Satis Cognitum, June 19, 1896
    15c. Lux et Veritas, December 25, 1931.
    16a. Fr. D. I. Lanslot, Catholic Theology, St. Louise, M O, 1911, Pg. 486.
    16b. Fr. E. O'Donnell, A Compendium of St. Thomas's Theology, Dublin 1859, Volume II, Pg. 113, Cf. Summa Theologica, II-II, QQ. 92-96.
    16c. Fr. John R. Bancroft, C.SS. R, Communication in Religious worship with non Catholics, Washington, 1943, pg. 48.
    16d. Fr. John R. Bancroft, C.SS. R, Communication in Religious worship with non Catholics, Washington, 1943, pg. 14.
    16e. Summa Theologica II-II, q. 81, Art. 1
    16f. Suarez, Opera Omnia, Tom XIII, pg. 7
    17a. Our Apostolic Mandate
    17b. Apud. Theod., lib. 4, Hist. Eccl., c. xvii.
    18. Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos
    19. Pope Leo XIII, Praeclara Gratulationis., June 20, 1894
    20. St. Canisius Catholic Cate-chism, Dillingen, 1560, Question no. 1
    21. St. Peter Mavimenus, The Roman Martyrology for February 21
    22. "National Catholic Register," 1974
    23. St. Alphonsus de Liguori, Victories of the Martyrs, ch. LIII.
    23a. Saint Francis of Assisi, A biography, by Omer Englebert, 1979, Pg. 178-9
    24. St. John Mary Vianney. John Mary: SPIRIT OF THE CURE D'ARS, Bowden, 1864
    25. Acerbo Nimis, April 15, 1905
    26. Summa Theologica II - II q. 10, Art. 3
    27. Romans 2:12. Cf. AlsoSumma Theologica, II-II, Q. 11, Art. 1.
    28. The Catholic Dogma, "Out of the Church there is positively no Salvation", BENZIGER BROTHERS, New York, 1888,
    29. Fr. Michael Muller, Catholic Doctrine, preface, pg. 16
    30. Summa Contra Gentiles, Book 1, Chapter 16, Art. 4.
    31. Any documentation given in these regards are those which deal with only non Catholic worship in general, since there are volumes of condemnations both from antiquity and modern authorities on the communication of worship with heretics, who while retaining the name of Christian have departed from the faith of Christ. Since we are dealing with Non Catholics we limit ourselves to some of the authorities on this point.
    32. Opera Omnia, Tom. XXIV, p. 708
    33.Fr. John R. Bancroft, C.SS. R, Communication in Religious worship with non Catholics, Washington, 1943, pg. 48.
    34. Fr. John R. Bancroft, C.SS. R, Communication in Religious worship with non Catholics, Washington, 1943, pg. 51
    35. Epistola LXXXII, ad Hieronymum, Cap. II, n.18
    36. Canon 1258
    37. Moral Theology, A Complete Cource, by John A. Mchugh and Charles J. Callan, New York, 1929, Vol. I. n. 964, Pg. 376
    38. Mortalium Animos
    39. God the teacher of Mankind, New York, 1881, Pg. 331
    40. Lumen Gentium, 16. Vatican Council II.
    41. Quran, Book IX, par. 30, Cf. Sura 9:28, 5:17, 47:4, 5:62

    SOURCE
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    Pope Gregory VII. to the (Muslim) king An-Nasir of Mauritania (year 1076)

    Pope Saint Gregory VII To ANAZIR, KING OF MAURETANIA, ON THE MAINTENANCE OF FRIENDLY RELATIONS

    Book III, 21, p. 287. No date.

    Gregory . . . to Anazir, king of the province of Mauretania Sitifensis in Africa. [No greeting.]

    Your Highness sent to us within a year a request that we would ordain the priest Servandus as bishop according to the Christian order. This we have taken pains to do, as your request seemed proper and of good promise. You also sent gifts to us, released some Christian captives out of regard for St. Peter, chief of the Apostles, and affection for us, and promised to release others. This good action was inspired in your heart by God, the creator of all things, without whom we can neither do nor think any good thing. He who lighteth every man that cometh into the world enlightened your mind in this purpose. For Almighty God, who desires that all men shall be saved and that none shall perish, approves nothing more highly in us than this: that a man love his fellow man next to his God and do nothing to him which he would not that others should do to himself.

    This affection we and you owe to each other in a more peculiar way than to people of other races because we worship and confess the same God though in diverse forms and daily praise and adore him as the creator and ruler of this world. For, in the words of the Apostle, "He is our peace who hath made both one."

    This grace granted to you by God is admired and praised by many of the Roman nobility who have learned from us of your benevolence and high qualities. Two of these, Alberic and Cencius, intimate friends of ours brought up with us from early youth at the Roman court, earnestly desiring to enjoy your friendship and to serve your interests here, are sending their messengers to you to let you know how highly they regard your prudence and high character and how greatly they desire and are able to be of service to you.

    In recommending these messengers to Your Highness, we beg you to show them, out of regard for us and in return for the loyalty of the men aforesaid, the same respect which we desire always to show toward you and all who belong to you. For God knows our true regard for you to his glory and how truly we desire your prosperity and honor, both in this life and in the life to come, and how earnestly we pray both with our lips and with our heart that God himself, after the long journey of this life, may lead you into the bosom of the most holy patriarch Abraham.

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    Both religions have universalist pretensions. (Compare to Protestant voelkisch/national churches).

    Both are works-based religions.

    Both are political/theocratic-at-heart.

    Fetishization of ritualized prayer in both.

    Both have a strange affinity for "Mary".

    Both are hostile to Europeans' ethnocultural-continuity.
    Hail to You

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    Throughout the ages different opinions were held on the matter. The most prevailing one was, I think, that Muslims (and Jews) worship the same God as Christians, but not in the proper way. That's the most logical and theologically and historically coherent position. And that is unrelated to "ecumenism" or "modernism" of any sort.

    Articles like this one are on the wave of neoconnish propaganda, which has found its way into some seemingly "traditional Catholic" circles. These (fake) "traditionalists" are digging out some (arbitrarily chosen) traits of the pre-Conciliar church, combining them into puzzles of their own liking and presenting it as "pure tradition". Whoever disagrees with them is "modernist", "follower of the heretical Second Vatican Council" and similar.

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    Catholics worship God in Trinity. Muslims worship One indivisible God, without form,equal, or peer.

    Catholics have seven sacraments and other elaborate rituals including Penance and the Mass, highlighted in the Eucharist. Muslims have five daily salawat, or prayers, spoken in Arabic. The Friday Jumu'ah Salat is comprised of two sermons and the prayer itself.

    Catholics and Muslims both have direct access to God, although there is an elaborate Communion of Saints that Catholics may call upon when needed. Muslims are commanded to direct their prayers to God alone.

    Catholics hold the doctrine of Original Sin. Muslims do not.

    The Islamic Hell is similar to the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory..only the truly evil will abide there forever. The others will be punished for their sins, then retrieved by their angels, taken to Paradise, healed of their wounds and restored to perfect health.

    In Catholicism, Satan was originally Lucifer who fell from grace when he tried to revolt against God.In Islam, Satan was originally a Jinn named Iblis who was expelled from Paradise for refusing to bow down before Adam.

    In conclusion, Catholics and Muslims may well worship the same God, but the perceptions of that God are certainly different.

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    I am actually my self unsure on the matter. Though the article does make for an interesting read..

    Quote Originally Posted by Nooumenon View Post
    Throughout the ages different opinions were held on the matter. The most prevailing one was, I think, that Muslims (and Jews) worship the same God as Christians, but not in the proper way. That's the most logical and theologically and historically coherent position. And that is unrelated to "ecumenism" or "modernism" of any sort.
    Yes, this is how I have always seen the issue the past. I shall continue reading about the subject however before I set my opinion in concrete.
    [Signature Pending]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny View Post
    Both religions have universalist pretensions. (Compare to Protestant voelkisch/national churches).
    You realise Christ's message was universal don't you?

    Both are works-based religions.
    Catholics DO NOT teach a works based salvation and that we DO NOT believe we can earn our way to heaven!

    Quote Originally Posted by JustaServant View Post
    What did the Council of Trent really say on Justification? Here are some points on Justification that Protestants may not be aware that Catholics are bound to hold as an article of faith.

    The Council of Trent - The Sixth Session

    CHAPTER VIII.
    In what manner it is to be understood, that the impious is justified by faith, and gratuitously.

    And whereas the Apostle saith, that man is justified by faith and freely, those words are to be understood in that sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed; to wit, that we are therefore said to be justified by faith, because faith is the beginning of human salvation, the foundation, and the root of all Justification; without which it is impossible to please God, and to come unto the fellowship of His sons: but we are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification-whether faith or works-merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

    CHAPTER IX.
    Against the vain confidence of Heretics.

    But, although it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted, nor ever were remitted save gratuitously by the mercy of God for Christ's sake; yet is it not to be said, that sins are forgiven, or have been forgiven, to any one who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of his sins, and rests on that alone; seeing that it may exist, yea does in our day exist, amongst heretics and schismatics; and with great vehemence is this vain confidence, and one alien from all godliness, preached up in opposition to the Catholic Church. But neither is this to be asserted, that they who are truly justified must needs, without any doubting whatever, settle within themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and justified, but he that believes for certain that he is absolved and justified; and that absolution and justification are effected by this faith alone: as though whoso has not this belief, doubts of the promises of God, and of the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ. For even as no pious person ought to doubt of the mercy of God, of the merit of Christ, and of the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, even so each one, when he regards himself, and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension touching his own grace; seeing that no one can know with a certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.

    CANON I.-If any one saith, that man may be justified before God by his own works, whether done through the teaching of human nature, or that of the law, without the grace of God through Jesus Christ; let him be anathema.

    The council taught the grace of God and the necessity of faith. They also acknowle the need to press onward toward the high calling in Christ Jesus, which is also taught by Paul.
    Both are political/theocratic-at-heart.
    Where as your churches are nothing but pawns of the government.

    Fetishization of ritualized prayer in both.
    Expand, please?

    Both have a strange affinity for "Mary".
    Yes, you Protestants have zero respect for the Mother of God.

    Both are hostile to Europeans' ethnocultural-continuity.
    Oh, I am glad I joined this forum. It's such a funny place !
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    Most religions, religious orders, churches etc are cults of some kind. Some much worse than others. It's a system of beliefs which cannot be empirically "proven" to be valid. People get inducted into whatever the current religious flavour in their particular region or community is and from that point views about the "true God" start diverging.

    I just follow the money when it comes to this stuff. The more loaded they are the more bent they usually are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RoyBatty View Post
    It's a system of beliefs which cannot be empirically "proven" to be valid.
    I think Lutiferre may take issue with that.

    Regards,
    Eóin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eóin View Post
    I think Lutiferre may take issue with that.
    In order to do so, he would have to operate on a very novel concept of empiricism. I'd like to think I can give him more credit than that.
    "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split."

    -Robert E. Howard

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