Lost: The European Union's Political Animal

[Temujin]

Samogitia is an overly integral part of Lithuania, I can not imagine people voting for autonomy unless it would make western Lithuania financialy richer. But then we would have serious issues settling Samogitian "borders". Ethnographic areas based on 19th c. houses, clothes, etc. arent very relevant today. As I said, the main cultural differnce today is the linguistic one and if we speak about an autonomy not based on language but something else, then those are empty talks. It doesn't matter that "Samogitia was a seperate administrative unit for quite some time" as Samogitians feel like as much Lithuanian as any other Lithuanian. Already Vytautas said that Lithunians and Samogitians are "one people". Ask a random 21th c. Samogitian, he will say the same.

Anyway, we have dialects declining in all over Lithuania, not just Samogitia. Real actions to boost dialect's prestige should not be limited to Samogitia. I don't really know anyone who would support Samogitian only, if one supports Samogitian, then the same applies to the rest of Lithuanian tongues.

Anyone in Vytautas's position would have said something similar given the political circumstances of the time. Russians said that 'Lithuanians are Russians seduced by Poles and Catholicism' once.

I am afraid to be accused of having a little devil inside showing again. Let’s drop the discussion about politics, it wasn’t a good example.

Are you content with the fact Samogitian dialect is declining? In my ears Samogitian was the most distinct dialect in comparison to other Lithuanian dialects. It sounded like another language.

[lI]

This leaflet of the 5th anniversary of the Lithuanian Society of Berlin shows what might be in store for Lithuanianness in the future.
With several thousands of Prussian-Lithuanians present in Berlin only 70 joined the society. Lithuanians showed a tendency of avoiding fellow Lithuanians in their social life and were ashamed to speak Lithuanian.

Little has changed regarding the Lithuanians who live abroad. I don’t know if you realize it but there’s a fundamental difference between Lithuanians living in homeland and those living abroad - there always has been.

but you're right it's barely noticeable, this is why lutheranism would be a lot better, since the differences between Catholics and Lutherans are huge.

Better for what? For creating artificial differences where there are none? Adherence to the Christian faith is only a few centuries old phenomenon that started with the contra-reformation. It's rapidly declining and I don't see any problem in that. Catholicism at least bears some historical value in that it has absorbed many pagan traditions. Lutheranism, on the other hand is fit for nothing except for eradicating the indigenous traditions. The economic benefits it brings can’t outweigh this.

I remember we used to have 'ethnic' lessons in school up till 7th grade. One of the themes used to be the šišioniškiai dialect. worked to some extent since some Prussian-Lithuanian words(like šūlė, Oma, etc.) and a slight accent stuck to our everyday use of the language.
Personally, I would be more concerned with reviving Lutheranism.

If dialects were to be brought back to everyday usage in the public life (news, public events, schools, etc.), I would expect them to be ridded of loanwords. Otherwise, if a handful of distorted borrowings from German was all there was of the supposed distinctiveness, then the very existence of such dialect would be pretty pointless.
There are things so much more archaic and worthwhile to keep than those German words in the šišioniškiai dialect – for example, the dual number, unpalatalized word endings (mede instead of medžiai) or some retained diphthongs (indėti instead of įdėti) – it is their usage that ought to be encouraged.

Do you want to have Samogitian as a nationality written in your passport? Some people have it as far as I know.

Nobody has it. It is not recognized as a spearate nationality and if you knew Lithuanian language you would understand why Samogitian is perceived as a dialect rather than a language.
There are some people who would like to have it as a nationality in passports but those are the fringe history revisionists “Samogitia=Sarmatia”.

Anyone in Vytautas's position would have said something similar given the political circumstances of the time. Russians said that 'Lithuanians are Russians seduced by Poles and Catholicism' once.

Just because it happened to be useful for him to say it does not mean that it therefore must have been a lie. Vytautas wasn’t claiming similar things about Prussians or Scalovians even though it would have been usefull for his position too. Žemaitija translates into English simply as lowlands, any Samogitian will tell you that much. The core area that is nowadays called by the name Žemaitija is in West Lithuanian highlands. That reflects the historical movement Westwards of the Samogitian identity from the Central Lithuanian lowlands & the assimilation of Curonians. It is first and foremost the Curonian substrate that makes the contemporary Samogitian distinct from the East Lithuanian dialects. In Vytautas‘ times the Curonians weren‘t yet fully assimilated, so the difference between Samogitians and other Lithuanians must have been even smaller than it is now.

Are you content with the fact Samogitian dialect is declining? In my ears Samogitian was the most distinct dialect in comparison to other Lithuanian dialects. It sounded like another language.

If you are referring to that guessing game of mine, I deliberately chose the most hardcore sample of Northern Samogitian. In the source video the interviewer himself has trouble understanding everything interviewee says despite of being a Samogitian too, albeit a Southern one. There are three subtypes of Samogitian and it's nothing unusual for Southern Samogitians to find it difficult to comprehend the Northern ones.
Here's from a recent survey about dialects, a noticeable portion of Samogitians themselves said that they find Samogitian dialect the most difficult to understand – they obviously had these intra-Samogitian differences in mind:

http://taikomojikalbotyra.lt.azalija...imo-duomenimis

What do you think could be done preserving the Samogitian dialect which is considered as a separate language by some? Could Samogitian autonomy and the Samogitian dialect receiving official status be an option? Just to give the region and its people a form of recognition promoting cultural self-awareness so young people are not embarrassed speaking the dialect in public places and large regional centres.

Having some autonomous unit with one united standardized version of Samogitian would not solve the problem. There's not one Samogitian dialect but many regional variations. Standardization would just reduce the diversity. The position of dialects isn't as bad as it is often portrayed, the vast majority of Lithuanians are in favor of maintaining dialects rather than eradicating them:


http://taikomojikalbotyra.lt.azalija...imo-duomenimis

Notice how few people answered "none" when asked about the most beautiful dialect (people in the territories marked as North-East Dzukija on the map historically consider themselves Aukstaitian, so their answers shouldn't be surprising):

http://taikomojikalbotyra.lt.azalija...imo-duomenimis

Or how few answered none when asked about which dialect they are the most accustomed to (Samogitians call Standard Lithuanian as "Aukstaitian"):

Gervėčiai is often mentioned in the media but there are other enclaves survived to present day.

Gerveciai is special because of their songs and traditions. I haven't come upon songs from other regions cited in ethnology research papers or written down in extensive folk song catalogues. Maybe those other islets aren't as conservative. If it's not for the lack of traditions but just because they're obscure... it would be even more sad if they went into oblivion without at least being properly documented.

The little devil showing itself once in a while isn't me. It was only a figment of your imagination while you were listening to Budrūs - Būdraujant.

The title or lyrics of that song had nothing to do with what I said about any of this. It just created a nice apocalyptic atmosphere, very much fitting for ranting dooming procrastinations about the end of the word

I know what it means loosing it no less than you. I may have written something to get a reaction, but there was never any malicious intent. I am an angel when it comes to supporting the preservation of cultures and languages.

Sure you are. I didn't mean to say that your intentions were malicious. Your pan-Slavism stems from warm feelings, as you said

maybe you should be focusing on your domestic problems leading others by example so to speak, before expressing your concerns on Latgale and Gervėčiai region.

Just how much of a hypocrite exactly do you think I am?
Feel free to ask mods about which country my IP is from. It ain't the misty Albion I'm writing this from, I can tell you that much.

The sea of Slavs wouldn't have dreamt assimilating that many Balts in a short period of time even if there was such agenda. Sorry to sound dramatic but it's true.

The proportional figures aren't too different from the population loss due to deportations to Siberia + extermination of the resistance fighters (Forrest Brothers) - the key difference being that loss of population isn't being replaced by people imported from other Soviet republics as massively as it was happening in the past. At least for now...

And what could be done about stopping young people leaving Lithuania in large numbers? It maybe difficult for people to return home after spending 10 years abroad. It may not be possible after spending 20 years in other countries. Two generations and the cultural ties are broken due to social pressure for immigrants to assimilate. Between 10% to 20% of Lithuanian population left the country in 10 years by some accounts.

And it's a good thing that they're not returning. Emigrants returning en masse would alter the collective mentality of their home country. And I'm all for there not being any changes. Ever

Seriously though, emigration isn't a problem as long as there's no mass immigration to replace the population loss. It's not like such emigration trend would last indefinitely. Young people leave because they want to live independently but cannot afford to buy themselves new houses. As masses of people leave, the prices of apartments should go down but.. our ingenious government came up with the most retarded law ever - foreigners are now allowed to buy property. So, what we have as a result is Belarusians massively buying properties here in order to get visas so that they could move Westwards (in Latvia Russians are doing the same). They often don't even bother to check out the properties they're buying beforehand - it may be some hut that's burned down 5 years ago, they don't care as long as on paper there's a 20m² living room which enables one person to apply for a visa. I'm not making this up, the issue made the news headlines a while ago, here's one article:
http://translate.google.com/translat...%25C4%2585.htm

This Autumn there will be a large scale civil initiative to make a referendum to reverse that retarded law. If it succeeds, the future prospects might become much brighter - property prices fall, less young people emigrate.

[Temujin]

Nobody has it. It is not recognized as a spearate nationality and if you knew Lithuanian language you would understand why Samogitian is perceived as a dialect rather than a language.
There are some people who would like to have it as a nationality in passports but those are the fringe history revisionists “Samogitia=Sarmatia”.

This is a translation of comment made by a Lithuanian on another forum.

Translation:
Passports [for Samogitians] were printed in a centralised order with degrees of protection. The passports were issued by an activist organisation at its discretion. The condition for obtaining such passport was to be fully Samogitian. Half-Samogitian couldn’t receive them. Around 200 passports were issued by unofficial accounts . Some people managed to travel in other countries using these passports. Nobody knows [in Lithuania] about the purpose of such passport.
Source: http://lingvoforum.net/index.php/top...html#msg155427

A picture of passport:





Such passports don't have any legal status in Lithuania? There're discussions on the Internet regarding the 'Samogitian passports'.

Just because it happened to be useful for him to say it does not mean that it therefore must have been a lie. Vytautas wasn’t claiming similar things about Prussians or Scalovians even though it would have been usefull for his position too. Žemaitija translates into English simply as lowlands, any Samogitian will tell you that much. The core area that is nowadays called by the name Žemaitija is in West Lithuanian highlands. That reflects the historical movement Westwards of the Samogitian identity from the Central Lithuanian lowlands & the assimilation of Curonians. It is first and foremost the Curonian substrate that makes the contemporary Samogitian distinct from the East Lithuanian dialects. In Vytautas‘ times the Curonians weren‘t yet fully assimilated, so the difference between Samogitians and other Lithuanians must have been even smaller than it is now.

One doesn't need to know Lithuanian tongues to know the meaning of Žemaitija. I knew the meaning of it.

Two different archeological cultures from late iron age existed in eastern Lithuania, north-western Belarus on one side and north-western Lithuania in the land of Žemaitija on another side. The Lithuanian Grand Dukes sold Samogitia to Teutonic Order on many occasions. It's difficult to imagine the sale of the region with people of your kind to your eternal enemy on many occasions. To Somogitians' credit , they never surrendered holding on to their pagan traditions longest. In addition, the full official name of the state was known as the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Ruthenia [present day Ukraine and parts of Belarus], Samogitia and others.

These facts provide some indication about Samogitians being a separate Baltic tribe at least until 1422. But I don't perceive modern day Samogitians being any less Lithuanian than the rest of Lithuanians. I was interested to know if Samogitians wanted to preserve their distinct dialect as we were discussing culture&language in the context preservation. I received an answer from another member.

If you are referring to that guessing game of mine, I deliberately chose the most hardcore sample of Northern Samogitian. In the source video the interviewer himself has trouble understanding everything interviewee says despite of being a Samogitian too, albeit a Southern one. There are three subtypes of Samogitian and it's nothing unusual for Southern Samogitians to find it difficult to comprehend the Northern ones.
Here's from a recent survey about dialects, a noticeable portion of Samogitians themselves said that they find Samogitian dialect the most difficult to understand – they obviously had these intra-Samogitian differences in mind

Thanks for gathering all this information. It's interesting.

I will quote a comment from a topic on Samogitian dialect. Lingvoforum a discussion board on which enthusiasts gather discussing everything related to languages. The same Lithuanian guy who wrote about Samogitian passports answered the question if Samogitian is a dialect or a separate language.

Translation
Literary Lithuanian and Samogitian have little mutual understanding (officially Samogitian dialect is considered Lithuanian, so the question [of OP] wasn't formulated properly). Samogitian is not a separate language because it's not a written language, or let’s say, it doesn't have a written tradition in comparison to Latgalian.
Source: http://lingvoforum.net/index.php/top...html#msg151814

I heard the language [Samogitian] obviously but I don’t understand it well. Even when they speak in standard Lithuanian, as it’s an only way of communicating with other Lithuanians, they have a strong accent, and in order to understand what they are saying one needs to 'cock up his or her ears'. I cannot listen to them spontaneously, because after some time I stop understanding what they are saying. The phonetics of their language is very foreign. They [Samogitians] don’t even try to speak in Samogitian to non-Samogitians as it’s useless.

Two years ago we had an advertisement on TV in Samogitian in which standard Lithuanian subtitles were used. Draw your own conclusions.
Source: http://lingvoforum.net/index.php/top...html#msg151821

The same impression I had when I listened to different Baltic dialects. It sounded like another language.
This is only a single opinion but it was the opinion of a Lithuanian on a linguistic forum who doesn't have a point to prove. The guy knows about Slavic and Baltic languages more than an average person, I can tell you that much. I get an impression the dialect convergence to the standard is inevitable, although Lithuanians are in favour of preserving the dialects. Am I not mistaken?

Gerveciai is special because of their songs and traditions. I haven't come upon songs from other regions cited in ethnology research papers or written down in extensive folk song catalogues. Maybe those other islets aren't as conservative. If it's not for the lack of traditions but just because they're obscure... it would be even more sad if they went into oblivion without at least being properly documented.

There are many articles on Balto-Slavic commonalities written by scholars hosted on the Russian Academy of Sciences website. I can assure you Gervecai wasn't the only region on Belarusian side of the border in which folk songs and old customs were discussed.
Remember I cited a song practised during burials among villagers? It came from far further west than Gervecai . The song was recorded in the 80s though.

Just how much of a hypocrite exactly do you think I am?
Feel free to ask mods about which country my IP is from. It ain't the misty Albion I'm writing this from, I can tell you that much.

I am not that shallow or distrustful going asking about your IP.

The proportional figures aren't too different from the population loss due to deportations to Siberia + extermination of the resistance fighters (Forrest Brothers) - the key difference being that loss of population isn't being replaced by people imported from other Soviet republics as massively as it was happening in the past. At least for now...

I am not sure why you are writing all this replying to the comment I made. I was referring to Slavs, while you referred to Soviets under which several Slavic nations as well as other ethnicities suffered losing no less people than Lithuanians.

And it's a good thing that they're not returning. Emigrants returning en masse would alter the collective mentality of their home country. And I'm all for there not being any changes. Ever

I was writing about people who began leaving the country after joining the EU. They haven't changed their mentality to an extent that their return would affect the mentality of people living at home. Migrants still live in segregated communities opening their own shops, watching movies and listening to the music produced at home; eating buckwheat porridge for breakfast and cold beetroot soup in summer. But okay, you expressed your point of view.

Seriously though, emigration isn't a problem as long as there's no mass immigration to replace the population loss.

10-20%, let say 15% of the population on average leaving in 8 years since joining the EU is not a mass migration? I'd call it an exodus of people. Once again, your point of view is noted.


Anyhow, I am still unsure why you needed to rant in the previous page. I suspect you were upset about me stating Lithuanians had less western cultural influence than two other Baltic states. The rest was your emotions. Yes, that was too much to bear for you. Was it not?

[lI]

This is a translation of comment made by a Lithuanian on another forum.

Such passports don't have any legal status in Lithuania? There're discussions on the Internet regarding the 'Samogitian passports'.

No, they have never had any legal status in Lithuania whatsoever. Out of half a million Samogitians merely 200 people bothered to get those passports? Wow, impressive. Pretty much goes in line with what I said about separatism being marginalized. My "fully Samogitian till-the-dawn-of-times" grandfather laughed when he first heard about those passports.

I personally would vote in favor of separatism but that it mainly due to issues with shale gas.

I will quote a comment from a topic on Samogitian dialect. Lingvoforum a discussion board on which enthusiasts gather discussing everything related to languages. The same Lithuanian guy who write about Samogitian passports answered the question if Samogitian is a dialect or a separate language.
This is only a single opinion but it was the opinion of a Lithuanian on a linguistic forum who doesn't have a point to prove. The guy knows about Slavic and Baltic languages more than an average person, I can tell you that much. I get an impression the dialect convergence to the standard is inevitable, although Lithuanians are in favour of preserving the dialects. Am I not mistaken?

LMAO sure he doesn't have a point to prove about the distinctiveness of the Samogitians - him spreading disinformation about those joke of a passport thingies goes very well in line with him not having any point to make
His blabberings about Samogitian not having any written tradition also shows how "well informed" on the subject he is lol

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll quote an actual specialist in this field - a Swiss linguist who is working as a professional translator in Lithuania (Samogitia, to be more exact) and who recently received an award for his outstanding work.

-While you were learning Lithuanian language you also heard dialects. Was it easy to comprehend, for example, what a Samogitian is talking about?
-After something like 20 minutes of listening you can already understand the person talking in a [Samogitian] dialect.
In Switzerland people talking in certain dialects, like those of the valleys of Alps, are also sometimes difficult to understand at first. But it doesn’t matter for the sake of understanding if you just don’t get some particular words.
Sometimes I see a lot of unwillingness. People from Vilnius have preconceived notions that the should not understand Samogitian. They live going by that self-created myth that they are not able to comprehend it.
I think understanding is possible, especially the television should incorporate more dialects in a playful manner.

-This year has been declared the year of dialects. Is the attention for them is sufficient in Lithuania? Are they not undervalued?
-I think everybody should learn the Standard language. A Swiss also needs to know the Satndard German language even though peopl don’t use it in the streets there – in Switzerland even the television is in dialects.
It is natural that in Samogitia even in the police the interrogations take place in Samogitian. What can you squeeze out of a Samogitian in Standard language? It would be strange if a Samogitian policeman would converse with a Samogitian suspect in an off-shot of Sudovian dialect (=standard language was based on Sudovian, despite of it bearing more resemblance to contemporary Aukstaitian). As one linguist once said, the Standard is just one of the many varieties of the Lithuanian language. It is the variety meant for writing.
In Skuodas district all council meetings are held in Samogitian. They are making use of the fact that the law requires to write the summaries of official meetings in Standard Lithuanian but says nothing about what language ought to be spoken during them. So they write protocols in Standard but talk in Samogitian.
There are special contests for school childern who write in Samogitian.
But there are also negative aspects. One friend of mine, a South Samogitian, writes poetry in his dialect. He says that the langguage of a largest Samogitian group – North Samogitians – which starts prevailing among written Samogitian texts is not close to Southern Samogitians. The Samogitian variety that’s been cannonized by A.Girdenis or J.Pabrėža is allien to a person from Varniai or Kelmė.
A positive aspect of this process is a conservation of the language for the future generations – it lessens the danger of dissappearing due to globalism.

http://www.skrastas.lt/?data=2013-01...ied=2013-01-25

Two different archeological cultures from late iron age existed in eastern Lithuania, north-western Belarus on one side and north-western Lithuania in the land of Žemaitija on another side. The Lithuanian Grand Dukes sold Samogitia to Teutonic Order on many occasions. It's difficult to imagine the sale of the region with people of your kind to your eternal enemy on many occasions.

Nowadays it is difficult to imagine many realities of those times. It might be interesting for you to check out the movie Getto (2006):
https://www.youtube.com/user/bezsenn...ew=1&flow=grid
It was filmed in Vilnius, there's a scene with Heino Ferch arguing with local Jews about his collaboration with Nazis that was very persuasive. The whole movie is precisely about the mode of action that you find so hard to imagine.

The same impression I had when I listened to different Baltic dialects. It sounded like another language.

If you don't mind me reminding you, I'll just add that you failed to tell apart the heavily Finnic influenced Latvian dialects from the Lithuanian ones at the first go. Or even Latgalian from Dzukian - but now that you already know what's what, you conveniently leave out that part of your first impression. Talking about subjectivity and the relevance of your perceptions

I am not sure why you are writing all this replying to the comment I made. I was referring to Slavs, while you referred to Soviets under which several Slavic nations as well as other ethnicities suffered losing no less people than Lithuanians.

Soviets were merely carrying on the practices that were initiated during the Tsarist occupation. There were Russification policies in place, like official bilingualism with Russian predominating in public structures just to give one example. So, nice try to portray the processes that took place during the Soviet occupation as not being a part of planned Slavic expansionism but it isn't really convincing.

Migrants still live in segregated communities opening their own shops, watching movies and listening to the music produced at home; eating buckwheat porridge for breakfast and cold beetroot soup in summer. But okay, you expressed your point of view.

Being segregated abroad is not the norm. Only a fraction of all migrants live like that - and that's only happening in UK, rarely in Norway too but not anywhere else AFAIK. A large part of normal emigrants derogatively refer to those communities as "lietuvynai".
Opening shops in itself is not a sign of segregation. There were very few Lithuanians in the neighborhood where I lived but there was a Lithuanian shop nearby. It catered to pretty much all Eastern immigrants from the area, not just the Lithuanians.

I was writing about people who began leaving the country after joining the EU. They haven't changed their mentality to an extent that their return would affect the mentality of people living at home.

I was talking about the same people too. 10 years is not enough to change one's mentality? Then why did you yourself say that "it maybe difficult for people to return home after spending 10 years abroad"? Obviously, finances are not going to be an issue for those people - most Lithuanians abroad work for building up some savings. What things apart from the changes in mentality could make it difficult for them to come back? I can't think of any.
One can resist changes in one's mentality for only as long as one doesn't comprehend the people from the host country. Afterwards the changes become inevitable. It's like losing oneself, as little as just a few years is usually enough to make those changes visible for people from the home country. A decade abroad tends to have a rather profound effect.

10-20%, let say 15% of the population on average leaving in 8 years since joining the EU is not a mass migration? I'd call it an exodus of people. Once again, your point of view is noted.

Did I say that emigration was not massive or did I specifically say that immigration was not massive? Once again, your reading comprehension skills are noted.

Anyhow, I am still unsure why you needed to rant in the previous page. I suspect you were upset about me stating Lithuanians had less western cultural influence than two other Baltic states. The rest was your emotions. Yes, that was too much to bear for you. Was it not? I admit I made a mistake not realising my inconsiderate comments will cause so much annoyance.

Your snotty attitude of claiming expertize in a topic of which you know very little was what triggered the rant. It was not what what inspired the content of the rant, as I have already told you.
My annoyance stems from having found out about your views after having spent time discussing certain issues about Belarus that I would have never asked you anything about if I had know that you're such a biased bigot. I like how you went on about Belarusians being perfectly at peace with the knowledge that various nations have taken part in their ethnogenesis while those shrewd Lithies are bizarrely denying their Finnic heritage - while at the same time you were going through that major butthurt over the Baltic pas of your own region.

I don't know anyone who's having an agenda to assimilate Balts despite you took a comment out of context presenting it as some kind of evidence. It’s not about me wanting to assimilate Balts.

I didn't say that you have an agenda to assimilate Balts. It's about you playing an objective jolly frolic observer while in reality you're a biased bigot.

[Hercus Monte]

Better for what? For creating artificial differences where there are none? Adherence to the Christian faith is only a few centuries old phenomenon that started with the contra-reformation. It's rapidly declining and I don't see any problem in that. Catholicism at least bears some historical value in that it has absorbed many pagan traditions. Lutheranism, on the other hand is fit for nothing except for eradicating the indigenous traditions. The economic benefits it brings can’t outweigh this.

I don't think everyone should convert to Lutheranism, I just think the church should be more active. (religion is dying anyway, whats the point?)
right now they bring us out as if we're some kind of circus moneys to show to German or Scandinavian or finnic tourists.
More importantly, I don't want to sound mean but Lutheranism is in many aspects superior to Catholicism. the most important being community. Catholics, unlike Lutherans, lack a strong sense of community and I really think Lithuania needs this right now.

If dialects were to be brought back to everyday usage in the public life (news, public events, schools, etc.), I would expect them to be ridded of loanwords. Otherwise, if a handful of distorted borrowings from German was all there was of the supposed distinctiveness, then the very existence of such dialect would be pretty pointless.
There are things so much more archaic and worthwhile to keep than those German words in the šišioniškiai dialect – for example, the dual number, unpalatalized word endings (mede instead of medžiai) or some retained diphthongs (indėti instead of įdėti) – it is their usage that ought to be encouraged.

nothing but dreams. won't ever happen since most consider themselves to be samogitians.
Since I can't have our actual accents, I'll take a few german loan-words. better then nothing

[Temujin]

repeat.

[Temujin]

No, they have never had any legal status in Lithuania whatsoever. Out of half a million Samogitians merely 200 people bothered to get those passports? Wow, impressive. Pretty much goes in line with what I said about separatism being marginalized. My "fully Samogitian till-the-dawn-of-times" grandfather laughed when he first heard about those passports.

I never stated all Samogitians have these passports. I wrote some people have it as far as I know. If you search on the subject you will find many discussions relating to 'Samogitian passports'. It appears you didn't know that such 'passports' exist in Lithuania which attract attention in some circles.

LMAO sure he doesn't have a point to prove about the distinctiveness of the Samogitians - him spreading disinformation about those joke of a passport thingies goes very well in line with him not having any point to make
His blabberings about Samogitian not having any written tradition also shows how "well informed" on the subject he is lol

Now if you'll excuse me, I'll quote an actual specialist in this field - a Swiss linguist who is working as a professional translator in Lithuania (Samogitia, to be more exact) and who recently received an award for his outstanding work.
http://www.skrastas.lt/?data=2013-01...ied=2013-01-25

He seemed to be a linguist for your information. He didn't spread any false information about Samogitian passports. He was asked about the passports, and he explained what they were. He was a regular and stable on the forum related to linguistics. Noone ever questioned his expertise in linguistics except you.

Nowadays it is difficult to imagine many realities of those times. It might be interesting for you to check out the movie Getto (2006):
https://www.youtube.com/user/bezsenn...ew=1&flow=grid
It was filmed in Vilnius, there's a scene with Heino Ferch arguing with local Jews about his collaboration with Nazis that was very persuasive. The whole movie is precisely about the mode of action that you find so hard to imagine.

Thanks but there's no need to to link me to a movie called 'Ghetto' to get a point across on many realities of the past. I know authority historians from different countries. I know a thing or two on this subject and I could always consult academic literature if I need to.

If you don't mind me reminding you, I'll just add that you failed to tell apart the heavily Finnic influenced Latvian dialects from the Lithuanian ones at the first go. Or even Latgalian from Dzukian - but now that you already know what's what, you conveniently leave out that part of your first impression. Talking about subjectivity and the relevance of your perceptions

If you don't mind me reminding you, I'll just add that I didn't fail to recognise Dzukian dialect from Latgalian. I suspected Latgalian dialect could be Latgalian but I wasn't sure about it.I didn't do that badly for a person who doesn't speak in Baltic languages or dialects. You can have another giggle over the fact the non-native speaker didn't recognise all dialects.

Soviets were merely carrying on the practices that were initiated during the Tsarist occupation. There were Russification policies in place, like official bilingualism with Russian predominating in public structures just to give one example. So, nice try to portray the processes that took place during the Soviet occupation as not being a part of planned Slavic expansionism but it isn't really convincing.

Weren't Slavs responsible for instigating the revolt against Tsarist occupation in Belarus speaking of Kalinowski? In Vilnius which had few Baltic speakers at the time, and in Poland? Weren't some Slavs forcefully converted to Orthodoxy having their books in their native language banned from print too? I cannot understand why you are bragging on about it confronting me with the fact.

Being segregated abroad is not the norm. Only a fraction of all migrants live like that - and that's only happening in UK, rarely in Norway too but not anywhere else AFAIK. A large part of normal emigrants derogatively refer to those communities as "lietuvynai".

Segregations happen in places where immigrants live in large numbers. UK is one of those places as it attracts many emigrants from your country. There are regions in USA too not necessarily in which Lithuanians segregate.

Opening shops in itself is not a sign of segregation. There were very few Lithuanians in the neighborhood where I lived but there was a Lithuanian shop nearby. It catered to pretty much all Eastern immigrants from the area, not just the Lithuanians.

Okay eastern Europeans for that matter living in the vicinity as they are shops' main clients.

I was talking about the same people too. 10 years is not enough to change one's mentality? Then why did you yourself say that "it maybe difficult for people to return home after spending 10 years abroad"? Obviously, finances are not going to be an issue for those people - most Lithuanians abroad work for building up some savings. What things apart from the changes in mentality could make it difficult for them to come back? I can't think of any.

It’s not due to mentality change after 10 years but rather about having already settled in other countries. It’s about having relevant work experience for the current labour market of the country. It's about one's partner receiving education in another country, which is relevant only to that country in some instances. It’s about one's children having been assimilated into local community already. There're different reasons why it maybe difficult to return after spending 10 years abroad, for example of one family member doesn't want to return. I don't believe adults will change their mentality after 10 years, but people often get a different outlook on the world after spending some time abroad.

One can resist changes in one's mentality for only as long as one doesn't comprehend the people from the host country. Afterwards the changes become inevitable. It's like losing oneself, as little as just a few years is usually enough to make those changes visible for people from the home country. A decade abroad tends to have a rather profound effect.

Eight years is not long for an adult to change his or her mentality in most cases.

Did I say that emigration was not massive or did I specifically say that immigration was not massive? Once again, your reading comprehension skills are noted.

Linkus: Seriously though, emigration isn't a problem as long as there's no mass immigration to replace the population loss.
frolic: replying: 10-20%, let say 15% of the population on average leaving in 8 years since joining the EU is not a mass migration? I'd call it an exodus of people.

Emigration is the act of leaving one's native country; immigration is the act of moving into a non-native country or region. Migration can include both, emigration or immigration.

Okay?

Your snotty attitude of claiming expertize in a topic of which you know very little was what triggered the rant. It was not what what inspired the content of the rant, as I have already told you.

Quote me stating my expertise on the subject please. I am not an expert or portray myself as one, but I know about the subject more than 99% of people on this forum. I can assure you of that.

My annoyance stems from having found out about your views after having spent time discussing certain issues about Belarus that I would have never asked you anything about if I had know that you're such a biased bigot. I like how you went on about Belarusians being perfectly at peace with the knowledge that various nations have taken part in their ethnogenesis while those shrewd Lithies are bizarrely denying their Finnic heritage - while at the same time you were going through that major butthurt over the Baltic pas of your own region.

I don't believe your annoyance stems from what you claim. You became annoyed in this topic after I made a comment about western cultural influence on Lithuanian culture. All of a sudden you started bringing up comments into the discussion which were made in private conversation, on another forum and some 5 months ago many of which are irrelevant to the discussion, while accusing me of snottiness and bigotry. Other than you continue twisting the comments being made elsewhere, what my opinion on ethnogenesis of Belarusians and my butthurt over the Baltic past have to do with anything? The comments made earlier don't add up in your opinion therefore, I am a biased bigot? Even I am biased, although I don't know how, you should brag on accusing me in every opportunity in a discussion unrelated to your concerns?

I didn't say that you have an agenda to assimilate Balts. It's about you playing an objective jolly frolic observer while in reality you're a biased bigot.

Aww... In reality, I am always frank and honest with women.

You are annoyed over the fact that I stated Lithuania had less western cultural influence than other Baltic nations. You picked on this right after I made such comments. It's obvious. Also, I've seen you arguing many times with other members from Latvia and Estonia over similar matters putting so much effort into it. Is there anyone who has shown some interest on matters related to the region you have not 'argued' yet?

[Skomand]

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