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It is being said that:
In a state that outlaws guns- only the outlaws have guns.
Those in favor of gun control take notice !
Wake up and smell the coffee.
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Ya and...? it is being said that:Originally Posted by Lawspeaker
In a state that outlaws murder- only the outlaws murder!
the horrible state!
I'm assuming this is 'gang on gang' problems mostly with niggers.
I hear nottingham has many niggers for instance. and this is where most gun crime in UK happens (outside of london or other yardie spots).
Also I don't belive you that 'guns are prevelent in the UK' or 'plenty of chance of being shot'. You are exaggerating. See stats in prior post.
I don't care about such people killing each other (already I said - criminals mostly killl each other, not get in law troulb eby killing random innocents. This is partly why 'only outlaws will have guns is a weak statement), only about what is more likely to kill innocent peoples? with guns, that's more likely, especially with psychologial precident. For example the schools shooting and 'monkey see monkey do' shootings are now established 'fashion' for random psychos. In places with gun control, those psychos can't get guns easily (no guns for sale, and they have no friends who could get them) and have to use knives if they want to go mad. So, less people die.
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I think that that is a blanket statement full of wishful thinking. There are white criminals in this world, not just minorities. Plus, with places with gun control, the law abiding citizens are not able to get guns as easily, but the criminal element will always have access to guns. Because they're criminals already, they're not going to care about breaking another law to get a firearm. I don't know about you, but I live in the real world, and I would rather have something in my hands to protect me then a fantasy of "Well, the criminals aren't supposed to have guns, so that means I'm protected, and law enforcement is always around to do it's job."
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obiously there are white criminals.
I don't agree. Guns are controlled here and it is not common for criminals to have guns. There is some american myth that 'if guns are outlawed then the outlaws will have guns' = all crimnals are armed to the teeth and preying on defencless civilians who naively put trust in the law
Because guns are controlled they dont' proliferate much at all amongst common criminals (who are a threat to the public) like they are in america. Only 'harcore' gangsters (both chaotic negro drugs gangs or 'organised' white criminals) are common to have guns, and mostly they only kill another gangster in drug fights or 'hits'. This isn't a problem for law abiding citizens.
Even where the public can have guns, it's not easy to stop someone who has planned to rob/rape you, probably has support, and has his weapon drawn, and suspects you might have a gun too so is 'on edge'. This is what my first post was alluding to, and what the study in the original post seems to back up.
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What is this in relation to? Per 100 per 1000? Source?some Homicides rates via firearms:
Germany 0.21
Romania 0.12
Hungary 0.47
Spain 0.19
UK 0.13
Poland 0.27
Austria 0.53
Czech Rep 0.92 (more liberal guns than most of europe)
USA: 6.24
Murders with firearms (per capita) (most recent) by country
- # 1 South Africa: 0.719782 per 1,000 people
- # 2 Colombia: 0.509801 per 1,000 people
- # 3 Thailand: 0.312093 per 1,000 people
- # 4 Zimbabwe: 0.0491736 per 1,000 people
- # 5 Mexico: 0.0337938 per 1,000 people
- # 6 Belarus: 0.0321359 per 1,000 people
- # 7 Costa Rica: 0.0313745 per 1,000 people
- # 8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
- # 9 Uruguay: 0.0245902 per 1,000 people
- # 10 Lithuania: 0.0230748 per 1,000 people
- # 11 Slovakia: 0.021543 per 1,000 people
- # 12 Czech Republic: 0.0207988 per 1,000 people
- # 13 Estonia: 0.0157539 per 1,000 people
- # 14 Latvia: 0.0131004 per 1,000 people
- # 15 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0127139 per 1,000 people
- # 16 Bulgaria: 0.00845638 per 1,000 people
- # 17 Portugal: 0.00795003 per 1,000 people
- # 18 Slovenia: 0.00596718 per 1,000 people
- # 19 Switzerland: 0.00534117 per 1,000 people
- # 20 Canada: 0.00502972 per 1,000 people
- # 21 Germany: 0.00465844 per 1,000 people
- # 22 Moldova: 0.00448934 per 1,000 people
- # 23 Hungary: 0.00439692 per 1,000 people
- # 24 Poland: 0.0043052 per 1,000 people
- # 25 Ukraine: 0.00368109 per 1,000 people
- # 26 Ireland: 0.00298805 per 1,000 people
- # 27 Australia: 0.00293678 per 1,000 people
- # 28 Denmark: 0.00257732 per 1,000 people
- # 29 Spain: 0.0024045 per 1,000 people
- # 30 Azerbaijan: 0.00227503 per 1,000 people
- # 31 New Zealand: 0.00173482 per 1,000 people
- # 32 United Kingdom: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cr...rms-per-capita
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obiously there are white criminals.
I don't agree. Guns are controlled here and it is not common for criminals to have guns. There is some american myth that 'if guns are outlawed then the outlaws will have guns' = all crimnals are armed to the teeth and preying on defencless civilians who naively put trust in the law
Because guns are controlled they dont' proliferate much at all amongst common criminals (who are a threat to the public) like they are in america. Only 'harcore' gangsters (both chaotic negro drugs gangs or 'organised' white criminals) are common to have guns, and mostly they only kill another gangster in drug fights or 'hits'. This isn't a problem for law abiding citizens.
Even where the public can have guns, it's not easy to stop someone who has planned to rob/rape you, probably has support, and has his weapon drawn, and suspects you might have a gun too so is 'on edge'. This is what my first post was alluding to, and what the study in the original post seems to back up.
Well, I still feel that your sentiments are misguided in this regards. We obviously have some culture clashing going on here. You have a preconcieved notion of how things are here in America, but what you have described I have never experienced. Granted, I have never been to Europe and have not experienced crime over there. So I think that we are not going to agree on this. I still feel that I am correct in my observations about criminals still getting ahold of weapons even if they are illegal.
Plus, in your post, you say that if someone is going to do something to you, there's nothing to be done, because they have the intent, and the will, and the impression that I got was all hope is lost at that point, so don't even bother trying. I don't know about you, but I would like to think that I would be able to at least put up a fight, even if it meant that I would still be beaten. If I'm in an area that allows concealed carry, I would like to be able to draw a gun and shoot the bastard. Since I don't, I have to resort to pepper spray and a knife, which I always carry.
Also, criminals do not always keep gun violence to themselves. That's a pipedream that they do. Many innocent lives are taken by gang violence every year, and it's not just by guns. I still hold to my stance that gun control is suicide for a country and it's citizens. You are not going to agree with me, so we may as well call it a draw.
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per 100,000
hereSource?
although on the stats you put up, USA (which is above all 'western' countries) still has almost 25x more per head than the UK, which is at the bottom of your list (and has strong controls). So much for Liffrea's 'plenty of chance of being shot' (below)
Last edited by Troll's Puzzle; 10-01-2009 at 11:30 PM.
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Then don’t believe me.Originally Posted by Troll's Puzzle
Also I don't belive you that 'guns are prevelent in the UK' or 'plenty of chance of being shot'.
I believe that legends and myth are largely made of
“truth”, and indeed present aspects of it that can only be received in this mode; and long ago certain truths and modes of this kind were discovered and must always reappear.
J.R.R. Tolkien
Indeed it might be a basic characteristic of existence that those who would know it completely would perish, in which case the strength of a spirit should be measured according to how much of the “truth” one could still barely endure-or to put it more clearly, to what degree one would require it to be thinned down, shrouded, sweetened, blunted, falsified.
Nietzsche
To God everything is beautiful, good, and just; humans, however, think some things are unjust and others just.
Heraclitus
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Not my words, but they explain my position pretty well.
"The single most important thing for you to understand is that while the vast majority of guns in the hands of Americans are never used to kill or hurt another human being, they are indeed designed for that purpose. And though we target shoot or hunt, we will ultimately acknowledge that. Well, most of us. I don't really want to pretend to speak for everyone but there are other gun owners here who will probably agree with what I am saying:
For gun owners, the context is important.
One gun is found in a desk drawer by a child, who kills his little brother with it in a deplorable gun accident.
One gun is used to shoot a fascist in Spain, in defense of a village.
One gun is used by a pregnant woman to kill a carjacker.
One gun is used to kill a rival drug dealer on the street.
One gun is used by a radical leftist political group who shoots an armored car guard.
One gun is used to shoot that same leftist political group down when they take hostages and begin firing at police.
One gun is used by a hiker who is attacked by a bear in Alaska.
One gun is negligently discharged and kills another hunter.
One gun is used to kill a home invader, who is in turn armed himself, with an intent to rape one of the residents.
For those who oppose guns, or hate guns, all guns are one thing: killing.
To gun owners, context is everything - that is to say, defense of innocent human life from one who tries to violate another's right to life (and/or liberty).
As a gun owner, I consider the blanket rejection of guns to be simplistic and, without being overly strident, infantile. It would be nice to live in a world without violence. I do not believe that disarming people who are responsible, who would never initiate a criminal or violent act against another person, will do anything to serve this goal. It is odd to me that so many of those who most despise the State - the US government, would turn around and at the same time insist that only this same government be allowed to own arms, to the exlusion of responsible citizens. To me that indicates a contempt for one's fellow man and a bizarre, childlike faith in the government. What are agents of the government? Men and women - just like civilians.
We who you will find online arguing in favor of the Right are not gang members. We are not criminals. We are not, for the most part anyway, Travis Bickle wannabes, lying in wait, hoping we have a chance to use our weapons on someone.
We believe that guns equalize good people and bad people. We believe they are a disincentive to bully and victimze other people. We believe their presence in prudent and judicious hands are a deterrent.
Most of us believe in caustic, malevolent evil - which almost always comes armed. Most of us believe in the right to defend the life one oneself and other innocent people against that evil.
If you want to really understand American gun owners, you will first have to understand that "gun culture" is not one thing - the inner city streets and the Second Amendment crowd almost never meet - they are two completely separate worlds. That is something those who hate guns and gun owners refuse to see, more than anything else.
For this reason and the reasons stated above, we do not view guns or gun ownership as a single thing: we abhor the decontextualization of gun ownership and resent the way we are stereotyped or lumped in with psychopaths and criminals, where the use of a firearm in self defense is grouped in the mind of some anti-gun people as the same thing as cold blooded murder.
We see a gun as a neutral, inanimate object, until it is picked up by a sentient human being.
We support the right to keep and bear arms because we believe the good guys ought to be armed, if not in numbers and firepower superior to, then at least at parity with criminals, and, god forbid, a tyrannical government run amok.
As those who believe we ought not to be armed should basically surrender to any armed criminal believe we live in a fantasy world when we assert that fighting back is not only our right, but is the prudent thing to do, we look with equal disbelief at those who think we should take the word of armed criminals that if we just cooperate, everything will be just fine.
We believe this because we believe in the right to one's own life, and the means to defend that life. That is really all it comes down to. We do not believe that it is privilege granted by the State. We do not believe we have any obligation to seek consent from others to own weapons. We believe it is a right all men and women have, and would have, whether the US Constitution enumerated it in the Second Amendment or not."
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A post from the Phora, explaining why this study is BS:
http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=55479What an absolutely idiotic study. The following explains why:
Criminologist Gary Kleck of Florida State University said the Penn results can be explained by the fact that people who are at risk of being shot are also more likely to buy or carry guns. Such people might have dangerous jobs or belong to a street gang or be involved in the illicit drug trade, for example.
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