R1b L51-L11 Germanic Italo Celts: Rulers and conqueres of Bronze-Iron age west Europe

[Artek]

Steppe R1b theories, ha ha ha ha ;D.

It's a maciamo's greatest theory ever .


But I start to like their R1a section anyway, seriously speaking.

[ALL]

@Fire Haired not all R1b are red or blonde haired some are dark too! like R1b Z2103

Look @Arteks worst nightmare if R1b can be found in the following locations including the Steppe .

1} Steppe [http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

The Ossetians mostly populate Ossetia, which is politically divided between North Ossetia–Alania in Russia..........The Ossetians descend from the Alans, a Sarmatian tribe (Scythian subgroup of the Iranian ethnolinguistic group).[14] About AD 200, the Alans were the only branch of the Sarmatians to keep their culture in the face of a Gothic invasion, and the Alans remaining built up a great kingdom between the Don and the Volga, according to Coon, The Races of Europe. Between AD. 350 and 374, the Huns destroyed the Alan kingdom, and a few survive to this day in the Caucasus as the Ossetes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1szs%C3%A1g

Jászság is inhabited by the Jassic people, whose linguistic base is preserved by the Ossetians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria

The area where Transnistria is now located had been inhabited by Indo-European tribes for millennia, being a borderland between Dacia and Scythia. The Tyragetae (a Getae Thracian tribe)

2}Greece proper like, Sparta:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._territory.jpg

3}Albania

4}Armenia proper

5}Azeri/Talysh/Gilakil/Lurs- Ancient-Northwest Iran Mede proper/Iranian

[Fire Haired]

Steppe R1b theories, ha ha ha ha ;D.

It's a maciamo's greatest theory ever .


But I start to like their R1a section anyway, seriously speaking.

The fact is that R1b in western Europe all falls under R1b L51 is is very young age estimates only go as high as 8,000ybp and it probably spread much later. R1b L51 son R1b L11 is what spread in west europe and it is even younger so that mean r1b came to western europe in probably the late neloithic age and bronze age exactley when indo europeans began and started to spread. R1b L51 father R1b L23 is mainly found around northern and eastern turkey, south caucus, southeast Europe, and Bashkirs in western Kazakstan which is in the steppe. That does not mean it orignated in those areas but it defintley orignated east of Europe or in far eastern Europe. No matter how u but it R1b in western Europe orignates from a migration from the east starting at the earliest 8,000-7,000ybp but it probably would have mainly spread after 6,000ybp.

Also R1b in west Europe breaks down into Indo European language families. It should not be a suprise R1b S28/U152 a subclade of p312 domintes Italy and that R1b l21 a subclade of P312 domintes ireland irish speak or orignally spoke a Gealic Celtic languages Italians speak italic langauges Celtic and Italic were orignally in the same family. It is also not a surprise r1b P312/S116 subclades dominte Celtic and Italic areas in west Europe like Iberia and France. germanic's also have their own branch of R1b which is R1b S21/U106.

More evidece it came from Indo Europeans and the steppes. Is we have 31 Y DNa samples from Neloithic west Europe or i guess just from west European cultures that were not Kurgen or decended from indo european steppe cultures. 26 had G2a, 4 had i2a1a, and one had E1b1b V13 their ages range from 7,000-4,725 years old. Then not a suprise two 4,600 year old Y DNA samples from Corded ware culture in central Germany had R1a1a. Corded ware has been suspected be proto balto Slavic speaking since the 1950's because of the Kurgen theory and has been suspected to be R1a1a.

Also two 4,600 year old Y DNa samples from bell beaker in central germany this is the exact place and time when Germanic Italo Celtic speakers were and both had R1b one was for sure R1b M269. To me it is obvious it was Indo Europeans who spread r1b in west Europe and it from from the steppes north caucus area just like Indo European languages. Indo European culture was extremly agressive and they conquered alot when a people group is conquered their y dna is artly destroyed by the conqueres y dn because men are killed in war. Indo Aryans did this in India and Pakistan which is why today 30-50% of people in northern India and Pakistan have R1a subclades under R1a1a1b2 the brother of Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 which obviosuly shows it was spread by Indo Europeans.

We know for a fact Indo European cultures conquered west europe starting 5,000ybp they were probably unrelated to corded ware culture and came from a diff migration route. U have to think were is the Indo European Y DNA in west europe if it is not R1b. R1b seems to have migrated to west europe around the same time Indo Europeans did. the ancient Celts were dominted by R1b La Tene Gauls who conquered alot of areas in east Europe we find R1b S28 in those areas. It is obvious that the Indo European groups in west europe were dominted by r1b it akes total sense to me that it came from probably the steppe's.

We know R1a1a M417 is proto indo European by how it is spread out today mainly in Balto Slavsic and Indo iranian speakers. r1a is not that popular in the stepe's today but that does not mean r1a1a M417 did not orignate there alot changes in 6,000 years all of the R1a eole maybe have just left the steppes or were replaced by invading y dna. There are no indo european languages left in the steppes there have not been any for over 4,000 years except indo iranians like sycthians who made back migrations from central asia and today slavic russians who come from corded ware culture and made back migrations from the west. Indo Europeans in the steppes were conquered by first Uralic's from the north about 4,000ybp and hen later tukic spekers from the east about 3,000-2,000ybp.

[Fire Haired]

@Fire Haired not all R1b are red or blonde haired some are dark too! like R1b Z2103

Look @Arteks worst nightmare if R1b can be found in the following locations including the Steppe .

1} Steppe [http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1szs%C3%A1g

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria


2}Greece proper like, Sparta:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._territory.jpg

3}Albania

4}Armenia proper

5}Azeri/Talysh/Gilakil/Lurs- Ancient-Northwest Iran Mede proper/Iranian

i never said r1b and r1a are red nd blonde haired. red hair and blonde hair are light hair colors and almost always have light eyes but they are distributed in a completely diff way. the people to have red hair probably had no blonde hair and the first people to have blonde hair probably had no red hair. like central and east finnish who have 60% blonde hair and 0% red hair or Irish and Udmurt in russia who have over 10% red hair and less than 15% blonde hair the udmurts have less than 10%. So blonde hair and red hair are not exactley connected and were not spread together.

R1a and R1b are Y Dna haplogroups which is a marker in the y chromosome of dna passed down from father to son it is like a lastname. It does not tell ur full ancestry just ur direct male line u can be 99.9999999999999999999999999% chinese but have y dna I M170 because 20,000ybp a east asian woman and european man had a son and his male line has not been cut off for 20,000 years. It does not make u European. finnish have over 50% y dna N1c which is orignally Mongliod siberian that does not make finnish mongliods they were conquered by urlaic speaking siberians about 8,000-7,000ybp but are not Monglidod.

So it does not matter that R1b Z2103 people are dark haired that is because they live in mainly turkey. Y DNA R1 and its father R were orignally mongliod there are still some native americans and siberians who have the orignal form R1*. R is the borther of Q the dominte y dna haplogrou of native americans and central siberians. it is also the cousin of O he dominte y dna haplogroup of Chinese and most east asians and it is also the cousin of N which i already kind of explained it is the dominte y dna haplogroup of north siberians. So just because 50% of Euroeans have R1a and R1b which go back to R1 which is mongliod that does not ake europeans mongliod. R1 somehow inter married with caucasins in the mid east then formed into r1b then i guess also in europe and formed into r1a then they have a very complicated history after that being bunced around diff people groups and eventulley find their way into Russia, Ukriane, and north caucus 6,000-8,000ybp. Starting indo european langauge, culture, and religion then spreading acroos europe and asia.

[ALL]

So it does not matter that R1b Z2103 people are dark haired that is because they live in mainly turkey.....

So according to your theory R1b-Z2103 found in Anatolia is from which Indo-European branch of language?

1}Nesa,Milyan,Carian,Sidetic,Pisidian,Lydian [Anatolian language branch]

Hittite is the earliest attested Indo-European language.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages

2}Ancient Greek:-

Mycenaean Greek is the most ancient attested form of the Greek language, spoken on the Greek mainland, Crete and Cyprus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Homeric_Greece.svg


3}Phrygians:

The Phrygians (Phruges or Phryges) were an ancient Indo-European people, initially dwelling in the southern Balkans; according to Herodotus, under the name of Bryges (Briges), changing it to Phruges after their final migration to Anatolia, via the Hellespont.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians

4}Celtic tribes:

In the 3rd century BC, Gauls immigrated from Thrace into the highlands of central Anatolia (modern Turkey).These people, called Galatians, were eventually Hellenized,[27][28] but retained many of their own traditions.

Tectosages,[29] in Galatia
Trocmii,[29] in Galatia
Tolistobogii,[29] in Galatia
Aigosages,[29] between Troy and Cyzicus
Daguteni,[29] in modern Marmara region around Orhaneli
Trocnades,[29] in Phrygia around modern Sivrihisar
Inovanteni,[29] east of the Trocnades
Territory of Gaezatorix,[29] between Bithynia and Galatia at modern Bolu
Rigosages,[29] unlocated
Okondiani,[29] between Phrygia and Galatia northeast of modern Akşehir Gölü

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ribes#Anatolia

[Harkonnen]

.....

[Fire Haired]

Silesian The La Tene Gauls who were called Galatiens conquered alot of eastern Europe and central Turkey. Today those areas have 1-5% R1b S28/U152 plus proto Germanic Italo Celtic is R1b L51 is the brother to R1b Z2103 so there is no way it comes from Celts. According to Eupedia's R1b tree R1b Z2103 is found in southeastern Europe and Anatolia just like it's father R1b L23. In Antloia it may come from Indo European migrations out of eastern Europe but i doubt it. I think it is a Indo European branch of R1b because it is the brother to proto Germanic Italo Celtic R1b L51. The supposibly Indo European R1b branches in southeastern Europe and Anatolia are the same so their languages might be related to and orignally in the same family as Germanic Italo Celtic. I would guess that R1b Z2103 in Antolia is from Hittites or the Antolian branch of Indo European languages.

Also the reason Hittite is the oldest attested Indo European language is because they had contact with mid eastern civilizations and learned to write it does not make it the oldest.

[ALL]

Silesian The La Tene Gauls who were called Galatiens conquered alot of eastern Europe and central Turkey. Today those areas have 1-5% R1b S28/U152 plus proto Germanic Italo Celtic is R1b L51 is the brother to R1b Z2103 so there is no way it comes from Celts.

Is R1b @ 1-5% z2103 in U.K. from Alan/Sarmation units within the Roman legions? What about R1b L23 Z2103 in Italy and Upper Rhone Valley Switzerland?
For example in U.K. and Ireland.
Brown haplotype 35 column:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....plogroup_2.htm

According to Eupedia's R1b tree R1b Z2103 is found in southeastern Europe and Anatolia just like it's father R1b L23.

What about Pakistan Ossetians and Bashkirs with R1b Z2103 and R1b M-73?

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

In Antloia it may come from Indo European migrations out of eastern Europe but i doubt it. I think it is a Indo European branch of R1b because it is the brother to proto Germanic Italo Celtic R1b L51. The supposibly Indo European R1b branches in southeastern Europe and Anatolia are the same so their languages might be related to and orignally in the same family as Germanic Italo Celtic. I would guess that R1b Z2103 in Antolia is from Hittites or the Antolian branch of Indo European languages.

What about the Albanians and their language, they are quite unique to with R1b?

Also the reason Hittite is the oldest attested Indo European language is because they had contact with mid eastern civilizations and learned to write it does not make it the oldest.

Why when you go to Gilaki wiki page it cites Grugni study but not R1b

Genetically, the Gilaks display a high frequency of Y-DNA haplogroups R1a1a, J2a, J1, and G2a3b.[/COLOR][4]

however when you look at the cited study footnote #4 Gilaki are 18.8%
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0041252



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilaki_people

[Benacer]

Do we have any Y-DNA data on the people of the Yamna Culture? From what I understand this theory inevitably associates them to R1b.

[Fire Haired]

Silesian sorry my computer is kind of slow i cant read all ur links. Can u please explain them i did read one and did not see any R1b Z2103. Here is a map made by Eupedia it combines R1b L23*, its sons R1b L51 and R1b Z2103, and R1b L51's son R1b L11


Almost all R1b in Antloia is R1b L23 or R1b Z2103. U can see that Italy and areas around Greece have higher amounts than the rest of Europe. This is the same reason why west asian and south west asian in the globe13 aust DNA test add up to over 30% of people in these areas they have more mid eastern blood than the rest of Europe probably because of the Greco Roman age. So they got R!b Z2103 from contact with mid easterns. probably the same for all European R1b Z2103. R1b M73 is the brother of R1b M269 they split a very long time ago and it seems R1b M72 could have spread with Indo iranians when they migrated to asia starting 5,000ybp. I dont really know how to explain the other R1b Z2103 but i doubt it is popular in those areas there is at least some sub sharen african Y DNA in Norway but that does not really mean anything alot happens in 10's of thousands of years every people group except maybe full blooded cherkoe indians has at least some very far away y dna.

Eupedia gives out some of the best info but their leader Maciamo i think comes to quick conlusions i almost always agree with him but sometimes i dont. I dont know why he says R1b L23 orignated in southeast Europe when it is extrem;y popular in eastern Antolia and the caucus more than southeast Europe. The website is suppose to be only about Europe but it would help if his maps did not just show skinny strips of asia and africa because R1b L23 is so popular in the Bashkirs but no one will know that because of his small maps. Europeans genetics and culture since the Neolithic age sstarting 10,000ybp has been very connected with the rest of the world so he needs to stop just talking about Europe if he does not include other areas he wont figure things out about Europe.