''The Balts and the Finns in historical perspective: a multidisciplinary approach''

**Pure ja** · 09-05-2013, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by Mr.KnowItAll

Maybe, maybe not. But I can't really think of anything Finland and Estonia share culturally and the genetic distance also seems wide.

Sauna as a house building actually originated from south of the Bay of Finland

Not necessarily from Estonia, could have been from Livonia or even further south.

Also, I gather that you are not a fan of baltic-finnic folklore, Kalevala - Kalevipoeg, runo-regivärss, etc.

Also, the only ethnic groups around the Baltic Sea with no history of violence and wars between themselves are estonians and finns (coastal finns mostly, since estonians did not wander far inland).

There have been conflicts among different finns, and between finns and karelians, between finns and swedes, between finns and saamis, between estonians and swedes, among swedes, between estonians and danes, etc., etc. But not between estonians and finns. Think about it.

**Temujin** · 09-05-2013, 09:26 PM

The article was published in 2004. It was a response to the study "Y-Chromosomal diversity suggests the Baltic males share common Finno-Ugric speaking forefathers" published by Laitinen at al. (2002) in which authors made a blunt conclusion about Baltic males having Finno-Ugric forefathers. Authors in Laiten et al. (2002) didn't even go through a standard procedure describing Lithuanian sample used in the study.

Later, several sources cited Laitenen et al.(2002) causing what I call 'haplogroup hysteria' among ill-informed people thinking the Baltic and other countries had Siberian or Finno-Ugric ancestry. Some people still hold the opinion based solely on the distribution of Y-DNA haplogroup.

Lithuanian scientists studied the DNA of Lithunian population in 2004. "Y chromosome and mitochondrial DNA variation in Lithuanians." Kasperaviciūte D et al.(2004) proportionally sampling the regions of Lithuania finding lesser frequency of N1c Y-haplogroup.

The table is from Kasperaviciūte D et al.(2004). (N1c is N3 in old nomenclature) .

Also, there were different sub-clades of N1c discovered in the last 10 years. Lithuanians have South-Baltic subclade of N1c mostly.

Source: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/n1c1/

N1c1 haplogroup (defined by SNP M178+) is widely spread around the Baltic Sea, Volga region, the Urals and Siberia.
The subclade N1c1-L1026 is typical for the Europe. Possible place of origin for L1026+ is westward from the Urals.
Possible place of origin for L708+ is Siberia.
The subclade N1c1-L550 is spread in South-Baltic region, Scandinavia, Iberia, British Isles.
At low frequency (<1%) the haplogroup N1c1 is found in Spain, Portugal, Germany and British Isles.
There are 5 main European subclades of haplogroup N1c1:
1) North European Subclade (Z1936+,Z1935+)
2) North-Baltic Subclade (VL29+,L1022+)
3) South-Baltic Subclade (L550+,L1025+)
4) Scandinavian II (L550+,L1025-)
5) Ugric Subclade (Z1936+,L1034+)

Genome-wide studies based on autosomal DNA confirmed the genetic proximities of Lithuanians to their immediate neighbours.

Gimbutas wrote in her book in the 60s citing archeological and anthropological findings that East Baltic settled by Uralic race (further NE) and Europid race arriving to east Baltic from northern Poland.

Physical type as shown by excavated skeletons also confirms the intrusion of new people into the East Baltic area and central Russia. Skulls from graves of the Kurgan (Corded, Boat-Axe, Fat’janovo) culture differ considerably in measurement from those in the graves or settlements of the hunter-fishers of the Comb-marked and Pitted-Ware culture. Those from the graves of the Kurgan culture were long and Europoid; those from the hunter-fisher sites were of medium length or short, with wide face, flat nose, and high eye-sockets. The latter traits are generally similar to those of the Finno-Ugrian peoples of western Siberia. Furthermore, the skulls from hunter-fisher sites in Estonia have shown a certain mixed type presumed to be derived from a combination of Europoid and Mongoloid elements. Their appearance is close to that of the present Manti, Chanti, Samoyeds, and Lapps, all of which belong to the Uralic race. The Europoid skulls from the graves of the newcomers in the East Baltic area almost exactly correspond to those known from northern Poland (former East Prussia), which again indicates diffusion along the coasts of the Baltic Sea.. The skulls from the Fat’janovo graves are also very similar, and about the same type is found in the Kurgan graves of the steppe area along the lower Dnieper. The mixture of the two racial types must have started immediately, since we know several Kurgan (so-called “Boat-Axe”) graves from Estonia in which skulls with Mongoloid traits appeared.1

Source: http://www.vaidilute.com/books/gimbu...mbutas-02.html

In most cases, the studies on population genetics only confirmed what was already known by archeologists, anthropologists and historians.

**Temujin** · 09-05-2013, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by Mr.KnowItAll

I think the bigger question would be, does Estonia share anything with Finland, except the linguistic connection.

I would go further asking : is there a Finnic or Finno-Ugric speaking population that is genetically close to Estonians?

**Hercus Monte** · 09-05-2013, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by Mr.KnowItAll

That's probably partly just ignorance. There might be some old traditions we share,

like Kantele/ kanklės?
Oddly, balts are the only indo-europeans who have this instrument, If i'm not mistaken.

**~~Albion~~** · 09-05-2013, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by Mr.KnowItAll

I think the bigger question would be, does Estonia share anything with Finland, except the linguistic connection.

You're ruining Karl's {wet} dream.

Seriously though, I thought Estonians and Finns were very similar? Aren't Estonians just like slightly backwards Finns?

**Pure ja** · 09-06-2013, 12:25 AM