Eye and hair colour distribution among 1272 Germans + general comment

[Samnium]

''Most individuals achieve stable eye color by 6 years of age. However, a subpopulation of 10% to 15% of white subjects have changes in eye color throughout adolescence and adulthood in the eye color range that can be expected to reflect changes in iridial melanin content or distribution. These data also suggest that such changes in eye color, or the propensity to such changes, may be genetically determined.''
I can confirm this from personal experience. My eyes were more typically green until mid teens and then they became quite greyer and are of intermediate grey/green colour nowadays (my eye colour is 6 on the Martin-Schultz scale - grey/green with yellow/brown spots).

I can confirm me too, now I'm something like 8 in the MS scale (in reality the light part is a mix of grey/blue and green, so scale 8 don't fit even), when I was child, I was nowhere that light-eyed.

Also, old people have always a some kind of "washed" color, because of the age.

[Supercomputer]

You asked me the same thing about this same particular photo in my respective thread about Hungarians. My exact answer was:
''On a 1-8 scale - 18.
However, this is a small group compared to my sample.''
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/sh...studied)/page2
And, indeed a sample of 734 ''weighs'' more in comparison. Photo you posted in Hungarian thread was of the same people but had better resolution.
56,42% of men in my survey fit colours 1-6 on the Martin-Schultz scale which is almost identical to the 56% Metodi Popov found among male Hungarians using basically the same criterion. - this was another thing I mentioned. I don't own Popov's book but member Theuser does. I quoted data he had posted on a Bulgarian forum.
And, by the way, Supercomputer, you can check image you posted in my thread about Hungarians, since it allowed much better zooming (this variant you now posted is basically useless). Your exact words were:
''How many of these Hungarians would you classify as light eyed? I counted 17/35 or 48,5%''
Basically you considered 17 of these people as light-eyed and my rate was 18/35.
However, I prefer googling people one by one - better photos appear.
Also, the reason I prefer using people who are past 20 years of age is that eye colour changes during puberty (sometimes even later in fact) in some cases. I have seen other sources confirming it but here is one:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9152135/
''Most individuals achieve stable eye color by 6 years of age. However, a subpopulation of 10% to 15% of white subjects have changes in eye color throughout adolescence and adulthood in the eye color range that can be expected to reflect changes in iridial melanin content or distribution. These data also suggest that such changes in eye color, or the propensity to such changes, may be genetically determined.''
I can confirm this from personal experience. My eyes were more typically green until mid teens and then they became quite greyer and are of intermediate grey/green colour nowadays (my eye colour is 6 on the Martin-Schultz scale - grey/green with yellow/brown spots).

Ups sorry, I must have forgotten about that. And I didn't even come up with equal results the two times I counted, so it just shows you the trouble of categorization of mixed eyes. That is why sometimes it's better if the image quality is lower which can make it easier. For example with my study of Croatia I counted each class twice and almost always came up with equal results. That is because only blue and gray eyes appear light, while green appears dark.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Results for Blue (~40%) as well as light eyes (~70%) fit very well with Virchow's data. Blond hair for men also isn't far from what XP found. Although I doubt the difference between Germans and Hungarians for light eyes is really that small (65% vs 71%). Hungarians supposedly have a lot o green and mixed eyes and that could cause confusion in categorization especially when the image quality isn't ideal, sometimes they are categorized under hazel, sometimes light, that's why the disparity in my opinion.

I mean, it's not a "doubt" lol. There's not even any "latitude" excuse here, as South Germany is further north than Hungary(and much higher in altitude as well), and obviously Germany as a whole is much more northern in latitude.

Even if we look at old anthropological data, let's use Popov for example(who Blade has used to back up his arguments before, although I'm seeing different numbers from Popov than he claims), who's one of the few who had his own numbers for various parts of Europe, not just one region. He had no number for Hungarians that I can find, but we can use another nation Blade also used to calculate the difference in ratio, and what should be if the ratios were the same.

Popov's light eyes statistics - (male/female):
1000+ Bulgarians from Sofia - 45%/34%
1000+ Bulgarians from Pleven - 44%/33%
100+ Bulgarians from Blagoevgrad - 43%/35%
100+ Bulgarians from Vraca - 42%/37%
100+ Bulgarians from Stara Zagora - 42%/37%
100+ Bulgarians from Varna - 40%/32%
1000+ Bulgarians from Plovdiv - 40%/36%
100+ Bulgarians from Burgas - 39%/27%
100+ Bulgarians from Ruse - 35%/41%
53 Pomak Bulgarians from Razlog - 43%
91 Christian Bulgarians from Razlog - 42%
154 Pomak Bulgarians from Velingrad - 63%
66 Christian Bulgarians from Velingrad - 59%
31 Pomak Bulgarians from Asenovgrad - 58%
234 Christian Bulgarians from Asenovgrad - 41%
119 Pomak Bulgarians from Smolyan - 40%
76 Christian Bulgarians from Smolyan - 37%
Romanians - 35%
Romanians from Transylvania - 42%/41%
Romanians from Moldavia - 46%/34%
Romanians from Bucovina - 49%/41%
Romanians from Moldavia - 73%
Gagauzes - 67%
Macedonians - 40%/36%
Swiss - 73%
Germans from Baden - 87%
Germans from Swabia - 89%
Swedes - 95%
Norwegians - 97%
Italians - 31%
Japanese - 9%
Kyrgyz - 5%

Let's say Popov's Bulgarian male light eye average is 43%(it isn't, it's lower, but I'm weighing the higher sample ones more), while The Blade has 55.44% for Bulgarian males. The Blade's number is 1.28x higher, so we can reasonably conclude if Popov studied Hungarians, based on Blade's Hungarian number of 65.14%, Popov's Hungarian light eyed number would be 50.89%.

For the sake of argument, let's allow Popov's "Germans from Baden" to represent all of Germany(even though realistically the German average would be much higher than the South German average). The difference between 50.89% and 87%, meaning Popov would have Germans as 1.7x lighter eyed than Hungarians, while Blade has German males(68.71% vs 65.14%) only 1.05x lighter eyed than Hungarian males. I haven't seen any results like that, ever, even the studies like Coon's which use different authors for different countries who definitely all had different definitions, no one has had Germany and Hungary that close. The hair color stats are even less believable, again, no anthropologist has ever suggested Hungary being blonder than Southern Germany, ever.

Popov literally had Baden/Swabian Germans blonder than Ukrainians and Russians, Badeners approaching Latvian numbers, both of which will undoubtably be as blonde or blonder than Germany as a whole even, if/when Blade does those countries:

Popov's blond hair statistics all according to Fisher scale - (male/female):
100+ Bulgarians from Ruse - 12%/14%
100+ Bulgarians from Stara Zagora - 12/17%
100+ Bulgarians from Burgas - 13%/13%
100+ Bulgarians from Vraca - 14%/20%
1000+ Bulgarians from Pleven - 14%/17%
100+ Bulgarians from Varna - 14%/15%
100+ Bulgarians from Blagoevgrad - 17%/17%
1000+ Bulgarians from Sofia - 18%/18%
1000+ Bulgarians from Plovdiv - 20%/13%
53 Pomak Bulgarians from Razlog - 23%
91 Christian Bulgarians from Razlog - 18%
154 Pomak Bulgarians from Velingrad - 18%
66 Christian Bulgarians from Velingrad - 21%
31 Pomak Bulgarians from Asenovgrad - 39%
234 Christian Bulgarians from Asenovgrad - 26%
119 Pomak Bulgarians from Smolyan - 23%
76 Christian Bulgarians from Smolyan - 9%
Romanians from Transylvania - 0.0%/2%
Romanians - 3%
Romanians from Bucovina - 10%/7%
Romanians from Moldavia - 11%
Romanians from Moldavia - 12%/14%
Japanese - <1%
Gagauzes - 2%
Armenians - 5%
Macedonians - 12%/12%
Serbs - 16%/16%
Russians - 27%/31%
Swiss - 37%
Germans from Swabia - 37%
Germans from Baden - 42%
Ukrainians - 35%
Great Russians - 36%
Lettonians - 45%
Swedes - 69%
Norwegians - 74%

[The Blade]

I mean, it's not a "doubt" lol. There's not even any "latitude" excuse here, as South Germany is further north than Hungary(and much higher in altitude as well), and obviously Germany as a whole is much more northern in latitude.

Even if we look at old anthropological data, let's use Popov for example(who Blade has used to back up his arguments before, although I'm seeing different numbers from Popov than he claims), who's one of the few who had his own numbers for various parts of Europe, not just one region. He had no number for Hungarians that I can find, but we can use another nation Blade also used to calculate the difference in ratio, and what should be if the ratios were the same.

Popov's light eyes statistics - (male/female):
1000+ Bulgarians from Sofia - 45%/34%
1000+ Bulgarians from Pleven - 44%/33%
100+ Bulgarians from Blagoevgrad - 43%/35%
100+ Bulgarians from Vraca - 42%/37%
100+ Bulgarians from Stara Zagora - 42%/37%
100+ Bulgarians from Varna - 40%/32%
1000+ Bulgarians from Plovdiv - 40%/36%
100+ Bulgarians from Burgas - 39%/27%
100+ Bulgarians from Ruse - 35%/41%
53 Pomak Bulgarians from Razlog - 43%
91 Christian Bulgarians from Razlog - 42%
154 Pomak Bulgarians from Velingrad - 63%
66 Christian Bulgarians from Velingrad - 59%
31 Pomak Bulgarians from Asenovgrad - 58%
234 Christian Bulgarians from Asenovgrad - 41%
119 Pomak Bulgarians from Smolyan - 40%
76 Christian Bulgarians from Smolyan - 37%
Romanians - 35%
Romanians from Transylvania - 42%/41%
Romanians from Moldavia - 46%/34%
Romanians from Bucovina - 49%/41%
Romanians from Moldavia - 73%
Gagauzes - 67%
Macedonians - 40%/36%
Swiss - 73%
Germans from Baden - 87%
Germans from Swabia - 89%
Swedes - 95%
Norwegians - 97%
Italians - 31%
Japanese - 9%
Kyrgyz - 5%

Let's say Popov's Bulgarian male light eye average is 43%(it isn't, it's lower, but I'm weighing the higher sample ones more), while The Blade has 55.44% for Bulgarian males. The Blade's number is 1.28x higher, so we can reasonably conclude if Popov studied Hungarians, based on Blade's Hungarian number of 65.14%, Popov's Hungarian light eyed number would be 50.89%.

For the sake of argument, let's allow Popov's "Germans from Baden" to represent all of Germany(even though realistically the German average would be much higher than the South German average). The difference between 50.89% and 87%, meaning Popov would have Germans as 1.7x lighter eyed than Hungarians, while Blade has German males(68.71% vs 65.14%) only 1.05x lighter eyed than Hungarian males. I haven't seen any results like that, ever, even the studies like Coon's which use different authors for different countries who definitely all had different definitions, no one has had Germany and Hungary that close. The hair color stats are even less believable, again, no anthropologist has ever suggested Hungary being blonder than Southern Germany, ever.

Popov literally had Baden/Swabian Germans blonder than Ukrainians and Russians, Badeners approaching Latvian numbers, both of which will undoubtably be as blonde or blonder than Germany as a whole even, if/when Blade does those countries:

Popov's blond hair statistics all according to Fisher scale - (male/female):
100+ Bulgarians from Ruse - 12%/14%
100+ Bulgarians from Stara Zagora - 12/17%
100+ Bulgarians from Burgas - 13%/13%
100+ Bulgarians from Vraca - 14%/20%
1000+ Bulgarians from Pleven - 14%/17%
100+ Bulgarians from Varna - 14%/15%
100+ Bulgarians from Blagoevgrad - 17%/17%
1000+ Bulgarians from Sofia - 18%/18%
1000+ Bulgarians from Plovdiv - 20%/13%
53 Pomak Bulgarians from Razlog - 23%
91 Christian Bulgarians from Razlog - 18%
154 Pomak Bulgarians from Velingrad - 18%
66 Christian Bulgarians from Velingrad - 21%
31 Pomak Bulgarians from Asenovgrad - 39%
234 Christian Bulgarians from Asenovgrad - 26%
119 Pomak Bulgarians from Smolyan - 23%
76 Christian Bulgarians from Smolyan - 9%
Romanians from Transylvania - 0.0%/2%
Romanians - 3%
Romanians from Bucovina - 10%/7%
Romanians from Moldavia - 11%
Romanians from Moldavia - 12%/14%
Japanese - <1%
Gagauzes - 2%
Armenians - 5%
Macedonians - 12%/12%
Serbs - 16%/16%
Russians - 27%/31%
Swiss - 37%
Germans from Swabia - 37%
Germans from Baden - 42%
Ukrainians - 35%
Great Russians - 36%
Lettonians - 45%
Swedes - 69%
Norwegians - 74%

Popov's blondism data is not something I can relate to that much.
I found a lower blondism value for Bulgaria than most of our local authors (although just by around 2% when compared to most of them) but several flaws of his blondism results are still visible:
1) Bulgarian men are not blonder than women - neither in Plovdiv, nor in any province, among no age group.
2) I'll believe Romanians (particularly from Transylvania) are that non-blond/non-blonde the day Will Ferrell produces a thriller/horror film.
3) Swiss, Southern German, Swedish and Norwegian results are clearly not based on blond hair only. Several of these apparently include light and obviously a lot of medium brown hair.
Never said Popov had no flaws. Every author had - Lundman I agree with about many things wasn't perfect, Coon was wrong on even more levels, etc.
4) Pomaks are nowhere near that blond and are in fact darker than ethnic Bulgarians. I sign under this statement of mine.
5) Germans from no region are as light-eyed as this figure claims - neither in times of his studies, even less nowadays. Swedes and Norwegians, as light-eyed as they are, are still rather in 80+% light eyes range, not 95-97%, and that if 1-8 is treated as light, not 1-6. I'm critical towards Romanians being darker-eyed than us. Japanese result is an absurd. His results on 1-6 scale for Hungary, Bulgaria and Italy (especially if only men are taken into account) make sense but clearly not everything does. I trust no author more than my own eyes/perceptions. I note when something matches my statistics (as is with Hungarian case) but that doesn't mean I'm a fanboy of any author. And for the record, Italians scored as about 5% lighter-eyed than I expected and I mentioned it (I can ignore my perceptions if solid evidence or at least a tendency is present). All of this comes to say no author was perfect.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Popov's blondism data is not something I can relate to that much.
I found a lower blondism value for Bulgaria than most of our local authors (although just by around 2% when compared to most of them) but several flaws of his blondism results are still visible:
1) Bulgarian men are not blonder than women - neither in Plovdiv, nor in any province, among no age group.
2) I'll believe Romanians (particularly from Transylvania) are that non-blond/non-blonde the day Will Ferrell produces a thriller/horror film.
3) Swiss, Southern German, Swedish and Norwegian results are clearly not based on blond hair only. Several of these apparently include light and obviously a lot of medium brown hair.
Never said Popov had no flaws. Every author had - Lundman I agree with about many things wasn't perfect, Coon was wrong on even more levels, etc.
4) Pomaks are nowhere near that blond and are in fact darker than ethnic Bulgarians. I sign under this statement of mine.
5) Germans from no region are as light-eyed as this figure claims - neither in times of his studies, even less nowadays. Swedes and Norwegians, as light-eyed as they are, are still rather in 80+% light eyes range, not 95-97%, and that if 1-8 is treated as light, not 1-6. I'm critical towards Romanians being darker-eyed than us. Japanese result is an absurd. His results on 1-6 scale for Hungary, Bulgaria and Italy (especially if only men are taken into account) make sense but clearly not everything does. I trust no author more than my own eyes/perceptions. I note when something matches my statistics (as is with Hungarian case) but that doesn't mean I'm a fanboy of any author. And for the record, Italians scored as about 5% lighter-eyed than I expected and I mentioned it (I can ignore my perceptions if solid evidence or at least a tendency is present). All of this comes to say no author was perfect.

but then there's no reason to bring up old studies to back up your study like you did. You can't pick and choose what numbers you like from him. If the 97% light eyed Norwegians light eyed number is bullshit or South Germans 87%(yes, that is absolutely bullshit) then so is 43% for Bulgarians, let alone 55%, but the ratio in differences are likely the same.

[The Blade]

but then there's no reason to bring up old studies to back up your study like you did. You can't pick and choose what numbers you like from him. If the 97% light eyed Norwegians light eyed number is bullshit or South Germans 87%(yes, that is absolutely bullshit) then so is 43% for Bulgarians, let alone 55%, but the ratio in differences are likely the same.

I didn't back it up only by this. I have my statistics and I always post links I got my results from.
Both you and I have been posting on The Apricity for long enough so far to know people have this habit of picking what info matches their perceptions. Unlike most of them, I at least have my own statistics to compare. No author was perfect. Same thing as with taxonomy - I use some terms coined by Coon and yet largely disagree with his racial theories.

[Supercomputer]

but then there's no reason to bring up old studies to back up your study like you did. You can't pick and choose what numbers you like from him. If the 97% light eyed Norwegians light eyed number is bullshit or South Germans 87%(yes, that is absolutely bullshit) then so is 43% for Bulgarians, let alone 55%, but the ratio in differences are likely the same.

I think 97% for Norwegians, 87% for Germans and 43% for Bulgarians all make sense and fit together if you include hazel eyes.

[Thomas Peck]

Neither Corded ware nor Yamnaya are a pure element to beginn with- to claim that they are "Nordid" different as something completely new/ unseen or unheard of. And they had more skulls who are visible Up admixed or at least not what a Nordid skull is.
Corded ware
https://imgur.com/2GCL5H9
Hallstatt
https://www.heidendom.com/images/titans/nordskull.JPG
Hallstatt Celts were SW-Euro like, are not extremly related to the Hallstatt Nordids phenotypes in Sweden.


anyway skull can change quickly.- something that Coon called "Bell Beaker problematic" since he already speculate that Bell Beakers and Corded ware were pretty much related, yet Bell Beakers being over 1/3 brachy.

It is not "completely new" to classify Corded Ware and Yamnaya as Nordic -- that's what they were always classified as. Where do you think the term "Corded Nordic" comes from?

[Immanenz]

It is not "completely new" to classify Corded Ware and Yamnaya as Nordic -- that's what they were always classified as. Where do you think the term "Corded Nordic" comes from?

Thats not what i really meant- there were East Aftican skulls who happen to have almost identical metrical data not being even genetically related to them.
Yamnaya were EHG/ CHG mixes, Corded ware has already some Pre- IE in them. I think Yamnaya had quite a range of skull size (robust long heads, brachy Proto Europids and a few more gracile types)

[Davystayn]

My guess is that arrival of Celtic languages during iron age in British Isles from west-central Europe brought more southernly continental component compared to extremely northern Bell Beakers that settled Isles in the bronze age. However actual Celtic blood (in sense of Hallstatt-La Tene) in Irish and Brits is not big but minor, they are still in majority of original beaker stock, especially Irish and other insular Celts.

Than Germanic invasions brought additional northern blood. English have additional southern input from Romans (at least in the south) and possibly even Normans to a minor degree. Normans were probably mixed with French to some degree when they conquered England. But those ancestries are minor in Isles anyway.

Romans left little genetic evidence but certainly left some, particularly in south eng where you get some med input, which is largely absent in the rest of the island. I think Romans left a little in South Wales too, Caerleon near Newport housed a Roman Legion for 300 years.

Certainly Romans used auxiliaries, and later soldier would have come from all over, particularly Germania, which formed the base for the subsequent migration period