DNA of Czechs

[Rethel]

They were not, 30% of Iberian autosomal DNA is from the Steppe:

So why Viriatio hasn't?

Even Genetiker recently admitted that R1b came from Eastern Europe (check his posts on Eupedia).

Link give.

after 2500 BC.

V88 was earlier.

[Peterski]

So why Viriatio hasn't?

Why do you think that he hasn't?

[Syky]

Tak teď si prozradil mé tajemství
Ty máš nějaké vazby na Mořkov?

Jsem taky Murk-vjan, akorát v pražském exilu, i když momentálně píšu z Mořkova. Víc kdyžtak do zpráv či přes fcb?

I recommend you any of autosomal DNA tests, I think haplogroups say only a little about who you are. Plus you can get some health related information if you care.

[Peterski]

Link give.

I already gave it.

I told him (about his "discovery" of R1b-M269 in ATP3 sample from Copper Age Iberia):

One singleton R1b flowing in an ocean of Non-R1b would not really change anything.

Especially considering that there is an ocean of R1b1a1a2 in Eastern European samples from similar periods.

This R1b has not been confirmed by any other source apart from Genetiker. I'm not saying that he is unreliable, but considering that he believes in some fairy tales about White European ruling elite in Pre-Columbian Peru and Chile (check his blog), I would rather wait for at least one more person to confirm his result. Moreover, even if this R1b is legit, it would still be only 9% of Copper Age Iberian Y-DNA (11 samples, including one probable R1b). Compared to ca. 70% today. And Copper Age Iberians were autosomally like modern Sardinians. There were big autosomal changes in Iberia after the Copper Age - what Y-DNA did those new immigrants carry, if not R1b ???

Time to accept the fact that Iberia has been a genetic sink, not a source of migrations to other parts of Europe.

He replied:

Because just about everybody, yourself included, claims that R1b-M269, Eastern European autosomal DNA, and Indo-European languages didn't spread to Western Europe until well after 3000 BC. ATP3 and the other El Portalón samples prove them wrong.

(...)

I look only at the data, and the data leaves no doubt that ATP3 was R1b-M269.

Either use the ATP3 data to show which of my Y-SNP calls are incorrect, or stop calling into question my R1b-M269 assignment.

(...)

All of the Copper Age Iberian samples we have so far come from one location, the Atapuerca Mountains, and even within that one location there's autosomal complexity, with the El Portalón samples having Eastern European admixture and the El Mirador samples lacking it. Almost all of Copper Age Iberia remains unsampled, and it's possible that within that vast territory there were populations that were contemporaneous with the Copper Age El Portalón population that had higher frequencies of R1b-M269 and higher proportions of Eastern European admixture. Later mixing with those other populations would explain the higher frequency of R1b-M269 and higher proportion of Eastern European admixture in modern Iberians compared to the El Portalón samples.

Another user told him:

Even if we consider the R1b1a2 [ATP3] as a true result, it's possible the lineage travelled with farmers.

He replied:

No, it isn't, because none of the early farmers were R1b-M269. Some were R1b-V88, but none were R1b-M269.

And again, ATP2, ATP3, ATP7, ATP9 and ATP20 had significant Eastern European autosomal DNA, which none of the early farmers had.

ATP2, ATP3, ATP7, ATP9 and ATP20 are Iberian Copper Age samples.

I wrote:

So even Genetiker now supports Eastern European Steppe origin of R1b-M269. The only thing about which he still disagrees with the "mainstream", is timing of arrival of R1b to Western Europe.

He now agrees with us, that R1b arrived to Iberia from the Steppe.

But he thinks, that it took place long before 3000 BC, not after that.

Another user quoted Gimbutas (on possible Indo-European invasion of Iberia before 3000 BC):

Interesting. I commend Genetiker for his willingness to go where the evidence leads, even if it means reversing a very publicly held course.

Re his insistence on pre-3000 B.C. timing, he might find some support in Gimbutas' writings for that, with her first Kurgan Wave, whose margin, according to her, reached pretty far west.

From her The Civilization of the Goddess, p. 365:

The emergence of single-male burials under round mounds in eastern Ireland and central England in the middle of the 4th millennium B.C. contrasts sharply with the local tradition of communal burials. This signals the arrival of the first people carrying Kurgan traditions across the Channel or North Sea from the continent, most probably coming from the Rhine basin (see chapter 6, the description of Linkardstown type burials in eastern Ireland and related round mounds with single burials in Derbyshire, Dorset, and other locations in England). At the same time, signs of warfare and violence appear.

From page 216 re the Chapter 6 reference above:

The Linkardstown tombs of eastern-central Ireland are a totally different type. These are found in stone cists under round mounds, but unlike all of the megalithic tombs they are not receptacles for communal burials but are for single burials only. The eight that are considered in the Linkardstown group, and an additional twenty-two which are considered related, all contained the unburnt remains of an adult male. These burials are indications of the primacy of males within this culture. A few contained additional remains, usually a child or a younger person, and one site contained a cremation along with an inhumation. Although there may be more than one person in the tomb, the burial rite was performed only once and then the tomb was permanently closed. There is no evidence of ongoing ritual as is present in the megalithic tombs.

. . . Radiocarbon dates show that at least three of these tombs date to the mid-4th millennium B.C., making them roughly contemporary with the great passage tombs of the Boyne Valley.

These Linkardstown tombs are extremely important because they show the earliest evidence of single burial in Ireland and a completely different approach to burial than that provided by the megalithic tradition. They represent the Kurgan (Indo-European) tradition as convincingly demonstrated by Karlene Jones-Bley in her dissertation of 1989. Solar patterns on pottery belong to an alien ideology brought by the people who buried their dead in single graves under round mounds. Analogies are known across the Channel in the Rhine and Upper Danube region where the earliest solar patterns emerged in the Rössen and Aichsbühl-Schwieberdingen groups dated to the period of 4300-3900 B.C. (see chap. 10). The intrusive element in eastern Ireland coexisted with the Passage-grave people, but thereafter were were [sic] either amalgamated with them or were pushed out.

And page 219:

Toward the middle of the 4th millennium B.C. a number of changes began appearing in both Britain and Ireland. Perhaps of most significance was the rite that emphasized individual burial, first seen in the mid-4th millennium B.C. in Ireland's Linkardstown burials. The evidence for this is not as apparent in Britain but does exist with such burials as Liff's Low, Derbyshire, and Duggleby Howe. Perhaps the most dramatic evidence of the change of burial rite comes from Whitegrounds Barrow, Burythorpe. Here a large round mound with a central male inhumation completely covered an earlier oval mound which contained the remains of eight people. The earlier mound had a radiocarbon date of c. 3700 B.C., while the later mound produced a date of c. 3340-3210 B.C. These mounds represent two entirely different social systems, religious practices and burial rites. One emphasizes communal return to the realm of the ancestors for regeneration within the tomb/womb of the Goddess, whereas the other celebrates the personal importance of individual males (see chaps. 7 and 10).

So it is indeed possible that some Indo-Europeans came to Iberia already before 3000 BC.

[Rethel]

Why do you think that he hasn't?

As I remember, he had only WHG and Farmer components.

Jsem taky Murk-vjan, akorát v pražském exilu

Traitor!

I recommend you any of autosomal DNA tests,

I think haplogroups say only a little about who you are.

Plus you can get some health related information if you care.

Sometimes better not know

[Rethel]

I already gave it.

You gave some other guy from Anthrogenica, not
Genetiker from Eurpedia, what you did mention

So it is indeed possible that some Indo-Europeans came to Iberia already before 3000 BC.

It is always possible, no matter time.

[Peterski]

As I remember, he had only WHG and Farmer components.

So you remember incorrectly.

With mlukas we calculated based on Eurogenes K36 that over 1/3 of modern Iberian autosomal DNA is indeed Post-Neolithic (Post-Farmer). In K36 calculator, Pre-Indo-European Iberians (samples I1300, I1281, I1303, I1314, I1280 and ATP16) score only "Iberian", "West_Med", "Italian" and "Basque".

And maybe also a little bit of "French" (but only some of them score it).

Ask Viriato for his K36 results. He will be much more mixed than those ancients.

[Peterski]

You gave some other guy from Anthrogenica, not
Genetiker from Eupedia, what you did mention

AFAIK this is his first post on Eupedia (check also his other posts):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...l=1#post495341

The El Portalón samples ATP2 (2899–2678 BC), ATP3 (3516–3362 BC), ATP7 (3345–2944 BC), ATP9 (1750–1618 BC), and ATP20 (2289–2050 BC) all had significant amounts of Eastern European admixture. My admixture analyses have shown that for a long time now. People have either not noticed it or pretended that it's not the case.

And ATP3 was R1b-M269. Another stubborn fact which many have been in denial about.

Before he registered there, I didn't know that he is from Peru.

Sometimes better not know

Family Finder from FTDNA does not offer any health information.

Only some companies offer health reports with autosomal tests.

I think haplogroups say only a little about who you are.

But the coolest thing about haplogroups, is that they do not recombine.

So you can trace the direct paternal line in the past, and into the future.

member Litvin is one of them, but he still has identity crisis. He isn't aware of the fact that Arbins spoke agglutinative languages in history, but Indo-Europeans don't.

Actually whether my Y-DNA is Indo-European or Basque does not matter for me.

I like Basque culture & people as well. But I always follow what the data says.

[Rethel]

AFAIK this is his first post on Eupedia (check also his other posts):

Yet not banned?

Before he registered there, I didn't know that he is from Peru.

Noone knew. It partially explains his westeuropean R1bism and ancient słońcotuskism...

[Rethel]

So you remember incorrectly.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/sho...=1#post4282621

# Population Percent
1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 85.74
2 Natufian 4.27
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 3.12
4 East_Asian 2.96
5 Sub_Saharan 2.02
6 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 1.88


But in others he has 18% of steppe, 40% natufian - so = as usually it is all bullshit.