Italian dialects database

[caviezel]

le minoranze walser sono estinte. si tratta di minoranze storiche, non contemporanee. been there seen that.

[Ulla]

le minoranze walser sono estinte. si tratta di minoranze storiche, non contemporanee. been there seen that.

In Italia sono tutte considerate minoranze storiche. Le più piccole stanno perdendo quasi completamente l'uso quotidiano della propria lingua, non solo i Walser, ma anche le altre.

[Ouistreham]

The famous La Spezia-Rimini line has somehow proved to be not very valid

There is a high concentration of isoglosses along this line though.
Two of the most remarkable are:
. The presence of front rounded vowels in all Gallo-Italic dialects (but not in Venetian),
. The weird use of a double set of subject pronouns, i.e. stressed subject pronouns, and unstressed pronouns that are always used as conjugation clitics before the verb, even if an explicit subject has been mentioned (that way, those dialects are still pro-drop). Stereotypical example : la vita l'è bela.
This peculiar feature is observed in all Gallo-Italic dialects but also in Venetian. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) it also exists in Friulian.

[Mens-Sarda]

If Logudorese and Campidanese were as different as Spanish and Catalan or even as Portuguese and Spanish, more linguists would agree on that. If the two Sardinian varieties were much more similar before the 1500s, the best analogy would be to compare them with Galician and Portuguese, two varieties developed from a common medieval language, regarded by many as different languages today mainly because of the modern distance in their phonology and the use of different standards.

Isn't the Limba Sarda Comuna, though, the standard adopted for the official documents in Sardinian?



That's cool. Apparently the Università di Napoli had an interest in this area, because they also have one of the best repositories for Catalan medieval poetry too : http://www.rialc.unina.it/index.html

yes we could compare them with Galician and Portuguese, but with a lot more differences, the Limba Sarda Comuna adopted for the official documents in Sardinian is based a lot on Logudorese but with a lot of Campidanese vocabulary, and it's really hated by both parts, to give you an idea of the differences between Logudoresu and Campidanesu, here is a text taken from an article in Campidanesu, and below a translation in Logudoresu and in Italian

Campidanesu
De argunus annus – si arregòrdu bèni in su Beranu 2010, candu sa Provinça’e Castedhu at sçoberau is “Arrégulas” che língua ufitziali – Omari Onnis pregontàt cun ispreu: “¿Chini funt is campidanésus?“. Dh’eus arrespustu intzaras e dh’arripiteus imòi, cund unu linguaxi chi dh’at a arregordai unu chi issu dhu connòscit bèni, est a nai Frantziscu Sedha: “Segundu ogetu issus funt is chi fuedhant su campidanesu; segundu sugetu funt is chi tènnint cusciéntzia de fuedhai sa língua campidanesa“.

Logudoresu
Dae calchi annu, si m'ammento bene, in su Beranu de su 2010, cando sa Provincia de Casteddu hat seberàdu sas "Regulas" comente limba officiale - Omar Onnis pregùntat cun dispreju: Chie sun sos campidanesos? l'hamus rispostu tando e lu ripitimus como, cun d'unu limbazu chi l'hat ad ammentare unu chi issu lu connòschet bene, est a nàrrere Frantziscu Sedda : segundu oggettu issos sun sos chi faèddan su campidanesu; segundu suggettu sun sos chi tènen cuscienscia de faeddare sa limba campidanesa

Italiano
Da qualche anno, se ricordo bene nella primavera 2010, quando la Provincia di Cagliari ha scelto le "Regole" come lingua ufficiale - Omar Onnis chiede con disprezzo : chi sono i campidanesi? gli abbiamo risposto allora e lo ripetiamo adesso, con un linguaggio che gli ricorderà uno che lui conosce bene, cioè Francesco Sedda: secondo oggetto loro sono quelli che parlano campidanese; secondo soggetto sono quelli che hanno coscienza di parlare la lingua campidanese

as you can see there are a lot of differences, not only the writing system, I think half of the vocabulary is different, different pronounces, accents, people accent, different plural articles, and different plurals, different way to conjugate verbs.



Yesterday Ulla wanted to know more about the differences between Gallurese and Logudorese, I wrote something at page 4, here is another example, a traditional greeting in the various Gallurese dialects, and below the translation in Logudorese and Italian

Gallurese comune	Maddalenino	Aggiese	Bortigiadese/Coghinese
L'aguriu chi focciu a chisti sposi primma di tuttu è di campa' alt’e cent’anni poi d’aé fiddoli boni e primurosi cu li cumpagni, cu li steddi e cu li manni. Lu chi t’agghju dittu, però, è pa un dumani; par abà àgghjiti alti pinsamenti: ogghj no pinseti a trabaddani ma a diviltivvi…cu l’amichi e li parenti	L'aguriu chi facciu a quisti sposi primma di tuttu è di campa' antri cent’anni poi d’avé fiddoli boni e primmurosi cu i cumpagni, cu i ziteddi e cu i grandi. Lu ch’agghju dittu, però, è pè un dumani; per avà àgghjiti antri pinzamenti: ogghj nun pinzeti a travaddani ma a diirtivvi…cu l’amichi e i parenti	L'aguriu chi fozzu a chisti sposi primma di tuttu è di campa' alt’e zent’anni poi d’aì fiddoli boni e primmurosi cu li cumpagni, cu li steddi e cu li manni. Lu gh’agghju dittu, però, è pa un dumani; par abà àgghjiti alti pinsamenti: ogghj no pinseti a trabaddani ma a diiltivvi…cu l’ammighi e li parenti	L'aguriu chi fozzu a chisti sposi primma di tuttu è di campa' alt’e zent’anni poi d’aì fiddoli boni e primmurosi cu li cumpangi, cu li steddi e cu li manni. Lu gh’aggiu dittu, però, è pa un dumani; par abà àggiti alti pinsamenti: oggi no pinseti a trabaddani ma a diiltivvi…cu l’ammighi e li parenti.

Logudoresu
S'auguriu chi fatto a custos cojuados nòos
primu de tottu est de campare àteros chent'annos
poi de hàere fizos bonos e cumpridos
cun sos cumpagnos, cun sos giovanos, e cun sos mannos
Su chi t'happo nadu, però, est pro unu cras;
pro como heppedas àteros pensamentos :
hoe no pensedas a nde tribagliare
ma a bos ispassiare cun sos amigos e sos parentes

Italiano
L'augurio che faccio a questi sposi
prima di tutto è di campare altri cent'anni
poi di avere figli buoni e premurosi
con i compagni, con i ragazzi, e con i grandi
Ciò che ti ho detto però è per un domani
per adesso abbiate altri pensieri :
oggi non pensiate a lavorare (lavorarne)
ma a divertirvi con gli amici e i parenti

[Ulla]

Walser

[Foxy]

About Abruzzese, lacking in the database, dialect changes very much between the provinces. In L'Aquila it sounds almost like Latial or Roman, in Teramo there are teramano, costal teramano and giuliese, spoken in Giulianova and called gigl', which seems an alien language appeared somehow somewhere, in Chieti and Pescara there are some differences in the lexicoon and in the accent.

[Comte Arnau]

There is a high concentration of isoglosses along this line though.
Two of the most remarkable are:
. The presence of front rounded vowels in all Gallo-Italic dialects (but not in Venetian),
. The weird use of a double set of subject pronouns, i.e. stressed subject pronouns, and unstressed pronouns that are always used as conjugation clitics before the verb, even if an explicit subject has been mentioned (that way, those dialects are still pro-drop). Stereotypical example : la vita l'è bela.
This peculiar feature is observed in all Gallo-Italic dialects but also in Venetian. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) it also exists in Friulian.

Yes, Friulian also seems to have clitic subject pronouns.

I didn't really mean that "the line" can't be useful as a clear boundary for, as you say, Gallo-Italic and Italo-Romance. I was referring to that simple image of a Western Romance group vs an Eastern Romance group based on that line. Even the assumed idea that lenition in p/t/k in the West was due to Celtic influence isn't that clear.

yes we could compare them with Galician and Portuguese, but with a lot more differences, the Limba Sarda Comuna adopted for the official documents in Sardinian is based a lot on Logudorese but with a lot of Campidanese vocabulary, and it's really hated by both parts, to give you an idea of the differences between Logudoresu and Campidanesu, here is a text taken from an article in Campidanesu, and below a translation in Logudoresu and in Italian

Campidanesu
De argunus annus – si arregòrdu bèni in su Beranu 2010, candu sa Provinça’e Castedhu at sçoberau is “Arrégulas” che língua ufitziali – Omari Onnis pregontàt cun ispreu: “¿Chini funt is campidanésus?“. Dh’eus arrespustu intzaras e dh’arripiteus imòi, cund unu linguaxi chi dh’at a arregordai unu chi issu dhu connòscit bèni, est a nai Frantziscu Sedha: “Segundu ogetu issus funt is chi fuedhant su campidanesu; segundu sugetu funt is chi tènnint cusciéntzia de fuedhai sa língua campidanesa“.

Logudoresu
Dae calchi annu, si m'ammento bene, in su Beranu de su 2010, cando sa Provincia de Casteddu hat seberàdu sas "Regulas" comente limba officiale - Omar Onnis pregùntat cun dispreju: Chie sun sos campidanesos? l'hamus rispostu tando e lu ripitimus como, cun d'unu limbazu chi l'hat ad ammentare unu chi issu lu connòschet bene, est a nàrrere Frantziscu Sedda : segundu oggettu issos sun sos chi faèddan su campidanesu; segundu suggettu sun sos chi tènen cuscienscia de faeddare sa limba campidanesa

Italiano
Da qualche anno, se ricordo bene nella primavera 2010, quando la Provincia di Cagliari ha scelto le "Regole" come lingua ufficiale - Omar Onnis chiede con disprezzo : chi sono i campidanesi? gli abbiamo risposto allora e lo ripetiamo adesso, con un linguaggio che gli ricorderà uno che lui conosce bene, cioè Francesco Sedda: secondo oggetto loro sono quelli che parlano campidanese; secondo soggetto sono quelli che hanno coscienza di parlare la lingua campidanese

as you can see there are a lot of differences, not only the writing system, I think half of the vocabulary is different, different pronounces, accents, people accent, different plural articles, and different plurals, different way to conjugate verbs.

I see. I know that speakers of varieties which have diverged quite a lot through the centuries instead of merging tend to dislike these artificial codifications. It has happened with Occitan, with Romansh in Switzerland, with Aragonese, etc. But sometimes one has to decide whether to choose a referential official standard, even if it's a bit distant from the spoken local variety, or let the language die. The standards of the major languages can also look quite distant and artificial for speakers of some local varieties -Northumbrian with regard to Standard British English, East Andalusian with regard to Standard Castilian Spanish, etc. The question is: is it really the same language or not?

If so, intermediate solutions would be either try to be a pluricentric language (same language, different substandards) or a diasystem (same language, different standards).

[Tacitus]

About Abruzzese, lacking in the database, dialect changes very much between the provinces. In L'Aquila it sounds almost like Latial or Roman, in Teramo there are teramano, costal teramano and giuliese, spoken in Giulianova and called gigl', which seems an alien language appeared somehow somewhere, in Chieti and Pescara there are some differences in the lexicoon and in the accent.

How different is giulese compared to the other Abruzzese dialects?

[Peyrol]

There's a site I found that has a database of dozens of recordings of various Italian dialects and sub-dialects from most regions, except Abruzzo, Lazio, Emilia-Romagna, and Marche. They also feature minority languages like Franco-Provencal, Arbereshe, Griko, Gallo-Sicilian, Walser, Cimbric, Slovenian, etc.

Link here: http://www2.rz.hu-berlin.de/vivaldi/...d=0001&lang=it

What we call ''dialect'' are no more than real and independent romance languages

[alfieb]

Rome learned language imperialism from their friends in Paris, who are the masters of it.