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Thread: Biblical Reasons Why Modern Israel is not the True Israel

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    Default Biblical Reasons Why Modern Israel is not the True Israel

    8) “Now therefore, thus you (the prophet Nathan) shall say to My servant David, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, “I took you from the pasture, from following the sheep, to be ruler over My people Israel.

    9) I have been with you wherever you have gone and have cut off all your enemies from before you; and I will make you a great name, like the names of the great men who are on the earth.

    10) I will also appoint a place for My people Israel and will plant them, that they may live in their own place and not be disturbed again, nor will the wicked afflict them any more as formerly,

    11) even from the day that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. The LORD also declares to you that the LORD will make a house for you.

    12) When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.

    13) He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

    14) I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men,

    15) but My lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you.

    16) Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever.” ''

    17) In accordance with all these words and all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David.

    II Samuel 7:8-17, New American Standard Bible
    Since today's Jews have no king, they cannot be the descendants of Jacob.

    Also, verse 10 indicates that at some future time after Nathan received this vision, Israel would permanently move from Palestine.

    At the time of the vision, Israel was already living in Palestine, so the location spoken of in verse 10 must be another place. Since Israel would be planted, and would not be disturbed again, the move will be permanent.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smaland View Post
    Since today's Jews have no king, they cannot be the descendants of Jacob.
    I don't see why this is so, at least not from the prophecy you've quoted here. There's no reason today's Jews cannot be the physical descendants of Jacob. The fundamental issue is that there has been a change in the administration of the Davidic kingdom - from government by physical kings over a physical body of people (the Israelites), to government by a spiritual king (Christ) over a spiritual body of people (the church).

    Also, verse 10 indicates that at some future time after Nathan received this vision, Israel would permanently move from Palestine.

    At the time of the vision, Israel was already living in Palestine, so the location spoken of in verse 10 must be another place. Since Israel would be planted, and would not be disturbed again, the move will be permanent.
    I see nothing here indicating a move out of Palestine. The contrast is between the "plantedness" that God would grant them versus the "unplantedness" from the time of the Judges till David, during which the Israelites were assaulted on every side. This is linked symbolically to God's continued dwelling in a temporary structure, the Tabernacle (which, when David realized the he was in a house of cedar while God was in a tent, became the catalyst for this prophecy); the building of the Temple & the zenith of power achieved by the kingdom of Israel under the reign of Solomon was the immediate fulfillment of this prophecy. But the prophecy ultimately points forward far beyond Solomon, to the reign of Christ.

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    There are a number of verses that indicate that the modern Jews are not the Hebrews of the Bible, such as :

    Genesis 35:11

    And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins...

    Genesis 26:4

    And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lagergeld View Post
    There are a number of verses that indicate that the modern Jews are not the Hebrews of the Bible, such as :

    Genesis 35:11

    And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins...

    Genesis 26:4

    And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed...
    How do these verse have anything to do with whether today's Jews are descendants of the ancient Israelites?

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    How about the fact that Hebrew-speaking people came out of Mesopotamia and were not true Canaanites?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clementina View Post
    How about the fact that Hebrew-speaking people came out of Mesopotamia and were not true Canaanites?
    So?

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    8) “Now therefore, thus you (the prophet Nathan) shall say to My servant David, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, “I took you from the pasture, from following the sheep, to be ruler over My people Israel.

    9) I have been with you wherever you have gone and have cut off all your enemies from before you; and I will make you a great name, like the names of the great men who are on the earth.

    10) I will also appoint a place for My people Israel and will plant them, that they may live in their own place and not be disturbed again, nor will the wicked afflict them any more as formerly,

    11) even from the day that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies. The LORD also declares to you that the LORD will make a house for you.

    12) When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom.

    13) He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

    14) I will be a father to him and he will be a son to Me; when he commits iniquity, I will correct him with the rod of men and the strokes of the sons of men,

    15) but My lovingkindness shall not depart from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you.

    16) Your house and your kingdom shall endure before Me forever; your throne shall be established forever.” ''

    17) In accordance with all these words and all this vision, so Nathan spoke to David.

    II Samuel 7:8-17, New American Standard Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by Odoacer View Post
    I don't see why this is so, at least not from the prophecy you've quoted here. There's no reason today's Jews cannot be the physical descendants of Jacob. The fundamental issue is that there has been a change in the administration of the Davidic kingdom - from government by physical kings over a physical body of people (the Israelites), to government by a spiritual king (Christ) over a spiritual body of people (the church).

    Although I am not a seminary professor, I must admit that I have never seen anything in the Scriptures that indicate that such a change in administration has taken or will take place. As I see it, the passage above speaks only of David and his biological descendants, not of a metaphorical 'spiritual kingdom'. In the passage, Heaven makes a specific promise to David to establish an eternal kingdom ruled by David and his descendants, from that time forward. At some point, Christ Himself will take the throne, and rule forever. Since the Jews do not have such a kingdom, they cannot be true Israelites.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clementina View Post
    How about the fact that Hebrew-speaking people came out of Mesopotamia and were not true Canaanites?
    Because those verses obviously are not referring to the modern Jews by that they are not as numerous as the stars and they do not form a company of nations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smaland View Post
    Although I am not a seminary professor, I must admit that I have never seen anything in the Scriptures that indicate that such a change in administration has taken or will take place. As I see it, the passage above speaks only of David and his biological descendants, not of a metaphorical 'spiritual kingdom'. In the passage, Heaven makes a specific promise to David to establish an eternal kingdom ruled by David and his descendants, from that time forward. At some point, Christ Himself will take the throne, and rule forever. Since the Jews do not have such a kingdom, they cannot be true Israelites.
    1) Seeing as there is no earthly Davidic kingdom today, there are no "true Israelites" by your reasoning.

    2) With regard to the spiritual nature of the kingdom:

    A) Christ is the promised Son of the Davidic covenant (Isa. 9:6-7; Lk. 1:32-33; Heb. 1:5,8,13);

    B) Christ, in his ascension to heaven, was seated on the throne of David & presently reigns over the kingdom (Acts 2:29-36; 1 Cor. 15:24; Eph. 1:20-22; 1 Pet. 3:22);

    C) This kingdom is not earthly, but heavenly & spiritual (Lk. 11:20; Jh. 18:36);

    D) All who believe in Christ enter into this kingdom, not only Jews but Gentiles also, on the basis of faith & not on the basis of physical descent (Acts 15:14-17; Rom. 9; Col. 1:13; 2 Pet. 1:11).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Odoacer View Post
    D) All who believe in Christ enter into this kingdom, not only Jews but Gentiles also, on the basis of faith & not on the basis of physical descent (Acts 15:14-17; Rom. 9; Col. 1:13; 2 Pet. 1:11).
    That one kind of confuses me since it is also said that people shall be judged by their deeds, thus belief isn't enough.

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