Anthropology of the Estonians

[Peikko]

Here's something for the original topic:

Pysical Anthropology of the Baltic Finns

The Finns and Swedes of Southwestern Finland are characteristically tall (height is more than 173 cm), relatively long and narrow headed, and as a result more doliocephalic than all other investigated groups (cephalic index is less than 80), the face is morphologically longer and more leptoprosopic (morphological facial index is more than 90), the nose is more leptorhine (in the vast majority of cases, the nasal index is less than 64). Concave profiled nasal bridges are infrequent, and convex profiled nasal bridges more frequent, relative to the East of Finland. The forehead slopes, and the browridges are strongly developed.

All of the traits described above are characteristic of the Scandinavian type.

The Estonians of the Western part of the Estonian S.S.S.R differ slightly from the population of Southwest Finland. Western Estonians are somewhat less doliocephalic, (since the breadth of their heads is larger) and their bizygomatic distance is somewhat larger. In addition to this, their foreheads slope more, and their browridges are heavy. Finally, Western Estonians are more robust than the population of Southwest Finland. Thus, Western Estonians belong to the West-Baltic type. This has also been established by other authors (U. Aul, 1964b, M. V. Vitov, K. U. Mark, N. N. Cheboksarov, 1959).

The West-Baltic type is also common among Livs and Western Latvians (M. V. Vitov, K. U. Mark, N. N. Cheboksraov, 1959).

Regardless of their differences, the two aforementioned types - Scandinavian and West-Baltic - have much in common. This is why in Soviet anthropological literature they are often referred to collectively as the "Atlanto-Baltic race"

It should be noted that certain groups of Southwestern Finns are broader-faced, and in this way are close to Estonians.

The Finns of Eastern Finland, Karelians, Vepses, Ijores and Eastern Estonians are characterized by a different set of traits. In the vast majority of groups studied, height is lower, the head is more brachycephalic (cephalic index is more than 80.0), the face is shorter (morphological facial index is less than 90), the nose is lower, and concave nasal profiles are quite frequent. The forehead is straight and the browridges are only weakly developed, which allows us to chracterize a portion of these groups as gracile. It should be reiterated that some of these groups are extremely light pigmented, and simultaneously display weak Mongoloid admixture. This complex of traits is typical of the East-Baltic type.

Soviet anthropologists usually regard Vepses as the most typical representatives of the East-Baltic type (see M V. Vitov, K. U. Mark, N. N. Cheboksarov, 1959, p. 103-104). According to our data, Vepses and Korelians are distinguished from the Finns of Eastern Finland and Eastern Estonians mainly by larger cranial and facial dimensions, which are apparently correlated with a decrease in height.

The differences between Eastern and Western Estonians are not as easy to extarpolate. In the Estonian S.S.S.R, the East-Baltic type has many intermediate variants with the West-Baltic type.

Source: Anthropology of the Balto-Finnish Peoples (Antropologija Balto-Finnskikh Narodov), by Karin Mark, p. 41-42.

[Peikko]

It really corresponds to all other research I've read. According to most anthropologists, who had the West Baltic type, it's common among Balts, Belarussians, Western parts of Russia and Polish people. (And of course in Western Estonia). Baltic Finnic type really is the East Baltic type.

[glass]

is it only me or this estonian man really looks less northern than his half eastern european daughter?

[Pure ja]

BTW, the population of Gotland is around 57000, so it hardly has much significance on Swedish genetics.

Not today.
But if it was 30 000 about 1000 years ago, then at that time it was quite significant.

[Peikko]

Not today.
But if it was 30 000 about 1000 years ago, then at that time it was quite significant.

Where did you get that figure? Also, was it relatively significant compared to other parts of Sweden?

[Pure ja]

Of course Finns and Estonians don't. There's been only limited amounts of mixing between Finns and Estonians. But it doesn't apply to Balts and Estonians, who cluster very well. Feel free to prove me wrong.

I don't see the need to prove you wrong.
We both admit the same thing. But our conclusions seem to be different.

I say that the inner core of europeanness in the Baltics has to represent the southern baltic-finnic core.
I can rephrase it to mean that it represents the south-western core of comb-ceramic. But the implication on both cases is still that there has been no considerable genetic divergence within the Baltics since the Swiderian culture. And that means that at least balts had to switch languages, the baltic languages did not reach the Baltics through extensive immigration into the Baltics (although that extensive immigration might have happened to the southern Belarus, where maybe baltoslavic started). Whether estonians switched languages, that debate is still open.

Elaborate, please.

The genetic cline seems to cut Belarus into southern and northern parts.
The northern part belongs to the core of europeanness.

Any Indo-European language is closer to Dutch than Estonian.

By linguistic rules, but not by sound.
The debate was always about 'what it sounds more like...'

[Pure ja]

What in your opinion is Nordic culture?

It is not for me to define or opine about the Nordic culture.
I prefer to opine on the nordic culture (notice the small caps).
It is like with internet and Internet.

The nordic culture is the culture of Põhjala / Pohjola, and that is not defined by the use of north-germanic languages.

By confrontation, Nordic culture would be defined by the use of north-germanic languages - and that means that if finns define themselves through the use of north-germanic languages, not by the Põhjala/Pohjala, then finns are considering themseves not finnic any more.

[Pure ja]

actually we were, staring with the curonians. but it didn't end there. both the GDL as an independent state and in the union with Poland had a good navy tradition, especially during the reign of Jan and Maria Sobieski.

Curonians with the lead of livonian/finnic curonian Lemmekinus, and allied with maritime oeselians. Yeah. Looks about baltic.
Curonians were as much baltic, as fennoswedes are finns, only in reverse.

[Peikko]

By linguistic rules, but not by sound.
The debate was always about 'what it sounds more like...'

Actually, I once had to do a test where I had to listen to several Baltic-dialect. Most of them were Latvian and Lithuanian, but one was Livonian. I couldn't tell which one was the Baltic-Finnic Livonian. I guess the Baltic-Finnic languages don't sound extremely different to Baltic-languages, though there are differences.

It is not for me to define or opine about the Nordic culture.
I prefer to opine on the nordic culture (notice the small caps).
It is like with internet and Internet.

The nordic culture is the culture of Põhjala / Pohjola, and that is not defined by the use of north-germanic languages.

By confrontation, Nordic culture would be defined by the use of north-germanic languages - and that means that if finns define themselves through the use of north-germanic languages, not by the Põhjala/Pohjala, then finns are considering themseves not finnic any more.

Well, it isn't really about languages for us at all. For me, the Nordic culture means cultural traditions and traditional foods, that the Nordic countries share. Examples go from årtsoppa to meat balls. In christmas we eat ham with mustard, pepparkakor and glög. Just to give a couple of examples.

[Pure ja]

there is no relationship between Rus and Roslagen

There is.
Both have N1c.