Immigrants in Greece

[Incal]

What does this mean to you? (thats the same point i was making)
If they are illegal = no work number = can't work = doing criminal activities

So you are excusing illegal immigrants by saying this? Sounds like extortion: "Give papers to everybody or else". Just so you know, an illegal has already broken the law since the first moment he set a foot in another country cause he didn't comply with that country's regulation so the solution is obvious: Deport that person ASAP.

[Queen B]

As for the crime if they are illegal they have no work number which means they cant work, therefore having to find other means of recieveing money and therefore become criminals. Capish now?

I understood what you said, but my comment was because you said that:
''The tax problem is your fault, they can't pay taxes without citizenship. Crime rate obviously tends to be high with the Greek crisis transpiring, the immigrants are the ones that are most effected.''

And like i previously said, crime rate probably increased because of the Greek economic crisis. You stated it was always "high" yet you failed to provide proof of this.

Crime rate was ALREADY high before the crisis
You want proof? Look proof
(Its a forum commenting on the date of the ministry, but the ministry page got changed, so the link is not working)
http://www.phorum.gr/viewtopic.php?f...16203&start=15

Examples:
Murders in 1991
Greeks: 204 immigrants : 25
Murders in 2007
Greeks: 195 immigrants : 103

Rapes in 1991:
Greeks: 16 immigrants : 6
Rapes in 2007 :
Greeks : 24 immgrants : 29

_ Edit_ I found I was looking for, in a page.

(but in Greek)

You can even use google translate, or I can translate to you.
Table 1 : homicides
table 2: Rapes
table 3: robbery
4: illegal arm owners
5 : smuggling
6: frauds
7: burglaries
8: forgery
9: beggary
10 : Copyright stuff

Columns:
1 = year , 2 = Greeks , 3 = rate change (from previous year) 4= immigrants, 5 = rate change, 5 = Immigrants / Greeks rate
http://www.e-grammes.gr/article.php?id=1710

Notes:
*Greeks are 11 millions and immigrants are 1,5 - 2 millions.
*Greeks include anyone holding Greek citizenship including Roma
*smuggling (illegals f.e) also means that the non-Greek might be a non-resident,too, like Turks smuggling illegals.

http://www.ce-review.org/99/21/vidali21.html
This article from 1999 seems to be fair and well balanced from both sides.

Its a little old, but until that time, was kind of true.
Greece decided to open the borders, as you know.
The reason was that Greece wanted to help, because, almost every Greek family have an immigrant in US,Australia,Canada,Germany from the 50s, or the 70s.(I have in Canada from my mother's side, and in Australia from my father's side)
The first influx, was a very positive one, mostly families migrated, worked in houses, everywhere, and integrated very well in Greece.
Right after that, there was a 2nd influx, mostly illegals, that escaped from prisons,etc.
Those got accepted as well, but in result, they did criminal activities, and betray the trust of those who welcomed them.
With that, Greeks weren't open to Albanians anymore, and the new Albanian immigrants were pre-occupied that they'll face negative behavior.

So you are excusing illegal immigrants by saying this? Sounds like extortion: "Give papers to everybody or else". Just so you know, an illegal has already broken the law since the first moment he set a foot in another country cause he didn't comply with that country's regulation so the solution is obvious: Deport that person ASAP.

There is no excuse for doing criminal activities.
They simply can get the fuck out of here. Especially Albanians that are NEXT door, not like Pakistanis or Afghans (not that they shouldn't also GTFO if they are illegal).
There is no excuse.
If they want to stay here, stay civil or bring their papers.

[alb0zfinest]

I understood what you said, but my comment was because you said that:
''The tax problem is your fault, they can't pay taxes without citizenship. Crime rate obviously tends to be high with the Greek crisis transpiring, the immigrants are the ones that are most effected.''

Crime rate was ALREADY high before the crisis
You want proof? Look proof
(Its a forum commenting on the date of the ministry, but the ministry page got changed, so the link is not working)
http://www.phorum.gr/viewtopic.php?f...16203&start=15

Examples:
Murders in 1991
Greeks: 204 immigrants : 25
Murders in 2007
Greeks: 195 immigrants : 103

Rapes in 1991:
Greeks: 16 immigrants : 6
Rapes in 2007 :
Greeks : 24 immgrants : 29

_ Edit_ I found I was looking for, in a page.

(but in Greek)

You can even use google translate, or I can translate to you.
Table 1 : homicides
table 2: Rapes
table 3: robbery
4: illegal arm owners
5 : smuggling
6: frauds
7: burglaries
8: forgery
9: beggary
10 : Copyright stuff

Columns:
1 = year , 2 = Greeks , 3 = rate change (from previous year) 4= immigrants, 5 = rate change, 5 = Immigrants / Greeks rate
http://www.e-grammes.gr/article.php?id=1710

Notes:
*Greeks are 11 millions and immigrants are 1,5 - 2 millions.
*Greeks include anyone holding Greek citizenship including Roma
*smuggling (illegals f.e) also means that the non-Greek might be a non-resident,too, like Turks smuggling illegals.


Its a little old, but until that time, was kind of true.
Greece decided to open the borders, as you know.
The reason was that Greece wanted to help, because, almost every Greek family have an immigrant in US,Australia,Canada,Germany from the 50s, or the 70s.(I have in Canada from my mother's side, and in Australia from my father's side)
The first influx, was a very positive one, mostly families migrated, worked in houses, everywhere, and integrated very well in Greece.
Right after that, there was a 2nd influx, mostly illegals, that escaped from prisons,etc.
Those got accepted as well, but in result, they did criminal activities, and betray the trust of those who welcomed them.
With that, Greeks weren't open to Albanians anymore, and the new Albanian immigrants were pre-occupied that they'll face negative behavior.

There is no excuse for doing criminal activities.
They simply can get the fuck out of here. Especially Albanians that are NEXT door, not like Pakistanis or Afghans (not that they shouldn't also GTFO if they are illegal).
There is no excuse.
If they want to stay here, stay civil or bring their papers.

I said
If they are illegal = no work number = can't work = doing criminal activities.
Whats the issue with that? I also said if they are illegal they cant pay taxes.
As for the crime "always" being high as it is now, thanks for providing a broken link with no evidence

[alb0zfinest]

So you are excusing illegal immigrants by saying this? Sounds like extortion: "Give papers to everybody or else". Just so you know, an illegal has already broken the law since the first moment he set a foot in another country cause he didn't comply with that country's regulation so the solution is obvious: Deport that person ASAP.

No im not requesting or demanding anything. Its their country they can grant or not grant an illegal Albanian citizenship. My point is when it comes to taxes they shouldn't complain, considering that illegal immigrants are not even allowed to do their taxes. so how in the hell should they pay for them?

[Queen B]

I said
As for the crime "always" being high as it is now, thanks for providing a broken link with no evidence

In the forum, it was chatted in 2008, with a link straight from the ministry.
Also, the 2005 site, also uses data from the ministry.
Every table was even linked to the specific post in the ministry site.In the 2005. Yes.

These ARE evidence, since those are publish based on those data.

Ηοwever, since someone that don't want to believe, won't anyaway, here is a ''right'' parliament member issued the question in parliament, and got the following .doc
Ask me anything to translate if you want.

http://www.thanos-plevris.gr/eperoti...atikotita.html

No im not requesting or demanding anything. Its their country they can grant or not grant an illegal Albanian citizenship.

Citizenship? Where do you live?
How the fuck can someone give citizenship to someone that you can't even know a name or make sure of his identification ?
When you have no papers / you can't identify the person.
If he is a criminal or not. If he is who he says he is or not , etc.
The only immigrant that can be granted a citizenship is a legal one, through neutralization

My point is when it comes to taxes they shouldn't complain, considering that illegal immigrants are not even allowed to do their taxes. so how in the hell should they pay for them?

Are not ''allowed''. Hey, do you know what illegal means?

[alb0zfinest]

In the forum, it was chatted in 2008, with a link straight from the ministry.
Also, the 2005 site, also uses data from the ministry.
Every table was even linked to the specific post in the ministry site.In the 2005. Yes.

These ARE evidence, since those are publish based on those data.

Ηοwever, since someone that don't want to believe, won't anyaway, here is a ''right'' parliament member issued the question in parliament, and got the following .doc
Ask me anything to translate if you want.

http://www.thanos-plevris.gr/eperoti...atikotita.html


Citizenship? Where do you live?
How the fuck can someone give citizenship to someone that you can't even know a name or make sure of his identification ?
When you have no papers / you can't identify the person.
If he is a criminal or not. If he is who he says he is or not , etc.
The only immigrant that can be granted a citizenship is a legal one, through neutralization

Are not ''allowed''. Hey, do you know what illegal means?

Crime in Greece is "high" depending on what you consider high crime rate and contrasting it with other countries. If you mean with the influx of immigrants crime rates rose higher then what they previously were then that doesnt neccesarly mean that crime rates are high, it just simply means they increased. Greece until 2008 had the lowest crime rates in Europe. Of course because of the economic crisis, those numbers have risen (which was the point i was making before,) yet despite this Greece remains to have one of the lowest crime rates in Western Europe (according to wikipedia).

hahahaha don't even know the name of the person?FACEPALM! of course when they deport the person they know his name just fine,
First off how can you pay taxes if you are illegal and don't work since you have no working number (the least), and if the person is illegal but he does work illegally he still can't do taxes because again he is illegal.
How manly of you

[Queen B]

Crime in Greece is "high" depending on what you consider high crime rate and contrasting it with other countries. If you mean with the influx of immigrants crime rates rose higher then what they previously were then that doesnt neccesarly mean that crime rates are high, it just simply means they increased. Greece until 2008 had the lowest crime rates in Europe. Of course because of the economic crisis, those numbers have risen (which was the point i was making before,) yet despite this Greece remains to have one of the lowest crime rates in Western Europe (according to wikipedia).

No, I don't mean that. I know already that Greece has one of the lowest crime rates in Europe.
I mean that Greeks are 11 millions, Immigrants are 2 millions, and yet, almost half (depends on the crime, some times more than half, sometimes less than this) of the crimes are caused by immigrants.

hahahaha don't even know the name of the person?FACEPALM! of course when they deport the person they know his name just fine,

Facepalm?
I guess you don't know what illegal means and how someone can be considered ''illegal''
1) By having a non-authorised or expired visa (you can get working-visa, student-visa, travel-visa)
2) By having no identification papers at all (very common among Pakistani/Africans/Indians/Asians/etc)
3) By having falsified/wrong documents

In the case 2) you simply can't deport the person. He/she can claim being a refugee, and ask asylum, and is granted, at least ''asylum'' status, even if he has no documentation at all.

First off how can you pay taxes if you are illegal and don't work since you have no working number (the least),

You don't pay taxes if you are illegal. Its impossible.

1) If he is illegal, happens something of the above 3.
a) Non authorised visa, means non-working permit. If you have non-working permit, you can't get a tax number
b) Self-explenatory
c) Self-explenatory again

How manly of you

[brunette]

Because your immigrants didn't and doesn't wanna stay in Greece at first place. They wanna go to western Europe but due to the agreements between Greece and EU, western European states are abusing you as some kind of dumping ground for illegal immigrants because supposedly they entered EU from Greece.

This is your country`s one of the few uses for EU`s big guns, just as they are using Romania and Bulgaria for dumping gypsies. They are abusing Greece and imho, you should abandon those agreements and let immigrants go where they wanna go and don't accept them back again. If western Europeans doesn't want them in their country, then they should deport them to their home country, not to the Greece. I have no idea how come you do that tough because you are completely hostage to them, a colony of Brussels.

EU wanted to trick Turkey childishly by saying that Turkey is the so-called EU candidate and supposedly, we should accept illegal immigrants from Greece because they used Turkish sea and soil while going to EU. Ofc we are not idiots and we didn't accept that stupid offer.

Any European countries that enters the EU it's like Roma Caput.

[brunette]

The tax problem is your fault, they can't pay taxes without citizenship. Crime rate obviously tends to be high with the Greek crisis transpiring, the immigrants are the ones that are most effected.

The problem was Germany borrowing money off Greece since WW2 and now Greece is having a crisis they want their money back and the German goverment is charging them 15 percent. My take on all this is that don't loan some Jew controlled Western country money in the first place.

Germany can't even start a decent National Socialist movement without Jews let alone have their own money.

[brunette]

@Alb0zfinest don't get too excited that wasn't an insult directed towards Greek people. None of this is their fault it's the Jews' fault.