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Thread: Portuguese accent Celtic-influenced?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Delarge View Post
    Estrada? That's how we say "road". I thought it was the same in spanish?

    rua = street
    estrada = road

    Both words are commonly used in Galician but not in Spanish

    In Spanish rua would be "calle" and estrada "carretera"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Labrador View Post
    O estudo da língua e das suas origens está diametralmente oposto à minha formação... Contudo, não encontro lá muita lógica em admitir que a nossa gramática, dita complicada (em comparação à espanhola, por exemplo) se deva a qualquer influência francesa. Horror. Lá por D. Henrique ser borgonhês a língua falada pela população local foi aquela que evoluiu para o Português, julgo eu. Por exemplo, apesar do francês ter sido falado durante séculos pela aristocracia inglesa, nem por isso o inglês foi influenciado gramaticalmente, foneticamente e por aí fora pelo francês - que era a língua falada e escrita pela elite reinante.
    The influence of French (and/or Norman) on English has been remarkable, specially on the vocabulary, but there have also been quite a few phonetic and morphosyntactic changes, as well as in the wording of certain phrases, that are more obvious in English because of it being a Germanic language. The influence of French on Iberia, while still big at some periods, can't really be compared. I consider the "guttural r case" in Portugal, if as a result of imitation from the French-speaking upper class in 19th-century Lisbon, to be an interesting but rather anecdotical phenomenon of phonetic change.

    Quote Originally Posted by Labrador View Post
    Não terá sido o castelhano que se simplificou face ao galaico-português? Enfim, estou a atirar postas de pescada para o ar.
    As I said, I fail to see why the Spanish grammar is seen as easier than the one of the rest of Romance languages. I see how it is easier in its phonology and consequently spelling, despite preserving etymological h's that are not written, for instance, in Italian or Occitan. But grammatically, in what?

    Quote Originally Posted by Falkata View Post
    Both words are commonly used in Galician but not in Spanish

    In Spanish rua would be "calle" and estrada "carretera"
    Yet the fact that the common words are calle and carretera doesn't mean that rúa and estrada don't exist in Spanish. This comes to prove how languages which were once close diverge.

    It's as if words followed a specialization depending on the area.

    Latin:
    VIA 'way' gives via in all Romance languages (voie in French). It is more commonly used with the sense of street in the Italian peninsula.
    Via STRATA 'paved way' gives estrada/(e)strata in all Romance languages (estrée in French got lost, though). Now it means 'street' in Italian and Romanian, and 'road' in Portuguese-Galician. The Germanics stole this word from us and so they also have strasses and streets.
    Via CARRARIA 'way for chariots' gave Occitan carrièra, Aragonese carrera and Catalan carrer, the common word for 'street' in these languages. Carrela in Sardinian has a close meaning, while Romanian cărare is a path. Old French had charrière. Spanish carrera and Portuguese carreira have acquired the meaning of 'race'. In all Romance languages, it also adopted the meaning of an 'educational path', that is, a career. A little chariot in Catalan is carret(a), from which carretera, originally 'path for chariots' and now the common word for 'road' in both Catalan and Spanish.
    Via RUPTA 'broken/open way' gave route in French, where it means 'road'. Apparently all other Romance languages (and English) took ruta from French, with the sense of 'route'.
    RUGA 'wrinkle' came to mean, metaphorically, a path bordered by houses in Medieval Latin. From it, rua in the Romance languages, but more particularly in French rue and Galician-Portuguese rua, their words for 'street'.
    CALLIS 'path' gave the word calle, used commonly in Spanish, Asturian (caye) and Venetian for 'street'. Portuguese calhe, Italian calle and Catalan call are rare/poetic words for a narrow way, with the particular use of it in Catalan for the medieval Jewish districts. Cale also exists in Romanian with the sense of path. In Basque, kale 'street' is a Latinism.
    CAMMINUS is a word that Latin took from the Celts. But this is the common word for a way or path in most Romance languages: Portuguese caminho, Spanish camino, Catalan camí, French chemin, Italian cammino, Sardinian caminu... Romanians seem to prefer drum, a Slavic word.
    SEMITA 'path' gave literary words in most Romance languages: senda, sendero, senderol, sentier, sentiero...
    < La Catalogne peut se passer de l'univers entier, et ses voisins ne peuvent se passer d'elle. > Voltaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Arnau View Post
    The influence of French (and/or Norman) on English has been remarkable, specially on the vocabulary, but there have also been quite a few phonetic and morphosyntactic changes, as well as in the wording of certain phrases, that are more obvious in English because of it being a Germanic language. The influence of French on Iberia, while still big at some periods, can't really be compared. I consider the "guttural r case" in Portugal, if as a result of imitation from the French-speaking upper class in 19th-century Lisbon, to be an interesting but rather anecdotical phenomenon of phonetic change.
    Yes, certainly it did influence the English vocabulary, but not so much the rest (grammar, phonetics). If anything, I think that French might have had influence on the Portuguese vocabulary due to its "chic" status among the Portuguese elites/upper classes in the 18th and 19th centuries, so that some new words have been loaned to the lexicon (e.g., chofer, chalé, bidé, abajur, edredão, etc.). I don't see how, for instance, it would have any significant influence over the phonetics, considering that it was spoken only by a minority consisting of aristocrats, upper classes and intellectuals and means of "diffusion" of that possible influence did not exist back then (e.g., radio or television).

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Arnau View Post
    As I said, I fail to see why the Spanish grammar is seen as easier than the one of the rest of Romance languages. I see how it is easier in its phonology and consequently spelling, despite preserving etymological h's that are not written, for instance, in Italian or Occitan. But grammatically, in what?
    Honestly, neither do I. It's just what I've come to know from reading about it and I've never learned any Spanish so I could tell from experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Count Arnau View Post
    Yet the fact that the common words are calle and carretera doesn't mean that rúa and estrada don't exist in Spanish. This comes to prove how languages which were once close diverge.
    The Spanish CALLE has its match CALHE in Portuguese, though CALHE is never used to mean rua, as far as I know.

    calhe
    s. f.
    1. Rua estreita.
    2. Congosta.
    3. Carreiro.
    4. Vereda.
    5. Calha.
    6. [Portugal: Trás-os-Montes] Cale de madeira, que, na azenha, leva a água às penas do rodízio.

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    In French, estrée (North) has been lost, as well as charrière and carrière (except in the metaphorical sense of 'carrière professionnelle'), having been replaced by chaussée (a paved road made of stones held together by lime mortar, chaux, hence Eng. causeway).

    In the South of France the related word caussade is found in placenames. Did it ever made it in Catalan and further West?

    Another interesting word is draille, used in the mountains of Southern France for "cattle drive", "vìa pecuaria", related to Lat. trahere and Eng. trail. Any possible relationship to Port. trilho?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Count Arnau View Post
    The influence of French (and/or Norman) on English has been remarkable, specially on the vocabulary, but there have also been quite a few phonetic and morphosyntactic changes, as well as in the wording of certain phrases, that are more obvious in English because of it being a Germanic language. The influence of French on Iberia, while still big at some periods, can't really be compared. I consider the "guttural r case" in Portugal, if as a result of imitation from the French-speaking upper class in 19th-century Lisbon, to be an interesting but rather anecdotical phenomenon of phonetic change.



    As I said, I fail to see why the Spanish grammar is seen as easier than the one of the rest of Romance languages. I see how it is easier in its phonology and consequently spelling, despite preserving etymological h's that are not written, for instance, in Italian or Occitan. But grammatically, in what?



    Yet the fact that the common words are calle and carretera doesn't mean that rúa and estrada don't exist in Spanish. This comes to prove how languages which were once close diverge.

    It's as if words followed a specialization depending on the area.

    Latin:
    VIA 'way' gives via in all Romance languages (voie in French). It is more commonly used with the sense of street in the Italian peninsula.
    Via STRATA 'paved way' gives estrada/(e)strata in all Romance languages (estrée in French got lost, though). Now it means 'street' in Italian and Romanian, and 'road' in Portuguese-Galician. The Germanics stole this word from us and so they also have strasses and streets.
    Via CARRARIA 'way for chariots' gave Occitan carrièra, Aragonese carrera and Catalan carrer, the common word for 'street' in these languages. Carrela in Sardinian has a close meaning, while Romanian cărare is a path. Old French had charrière. Spanish carrera and Portuguese carreira have acquired the meaning of 'race'. In all Romance languages, it also adopted the meaning of an 'educational path', that is, a career. A little chariot in Catalan is carret(a), from which carretera, originally 'path for chariots' and now the common word for 'road' in both Catalan and Spanish.
    Via RUPTA 'broken/open way' gave route in French, where it means 'road'. Apparently all other Romance languages (and English) took ruta from French, with the sense of 'route'.
    RUGA 'wrinkle' came to mean, metaphorically, a path bordered by houses in Medieval Latin. From it, rua in the Romance languages, but more particularly in French rue and Galician-Portuguese rua, their words for 'street'.
    CALLIS 'path' gave the word calle, used commonly in Spanish, Asturian (caye) and Venetian for 'street'. Portuguese calhe, Italian calle and Catalan call are rare/poetic words for a narrow way, with the particular use of it in Catalan for the medieval Jewish districts. Cale also exists in Romanian with the sense of path. In Basque, kale 'street' is a Latinism.
    CAMMINUS is a word that Latin took from the Celts. But this is the common word for a way or path in most Romance languages: Portuguese caminho, Spanish camino, Catalan camí, French chemin, Italian cammino, Sardinian caminu... Romanians seem to prefer drum, a Slavic word.
    SEMITA 'path' gave literary words in most Romance languages: senda, sendero, senderol, sentier, sentiero...
    Eu concordo. Só ler um pouco de portugues 'básico', a influencia francesa é clara. Palavras tais como "aniversário" (em vez de 'cumpleanos' em espanhol) - embora se pudesse argumentar que este exemplo nao é influenciado pelo frances - a palavra catala é aniversari). Outras palavras como 'garçom' sao indubitavelmente de origem francesa. Outras das que me lembro sao 'vinho rosé' em vez de 'vinho rosado' (do espanhol). Mas penso também que a influencia francesa é as vezes um pouco exagerada. Por exemplo, pensar que a ortografia (especialmente quanto aos verbos em portugues) se deve muito ao frances é errado. E.g. o verbo frances 'faire' nao influenciou 'fazer' em portugues (o espanhol 'hacer'), e o mesmo com palavras como 'o ferro' e 'le fer' (esp: hierro). Esta mudanca do 'h' em epsanhol a 'f' em portugues nao se relaciona de forma nenhuma com a influencia francesa. Outras línguas romances retiveram o 'f' e.g. o italiano, o catalao, o galego etc. (parece-me que só o castalhano experimentou aquela mudanca linguistica). Esta mudanca ocorre também com palavras de origem 'ibérica' (ou árabe): e.g. almohada >> almofada etc.

    Portanto, eu creio que a influencia francesa que teve lugar na língua portuguesa, afectou primariamente o vocabulário 'sofisticada' digamos (particularmente o vocabulário relacionado com a cozinha, os costumes e 'modo de vida').

    Quanto a' influencia do frances na língua inglesa (que creio foi muito mais profunda em termos de vocabulário), acho este artigo interessante.



    Depois de ver isto, é curioso que o ingles ainda se considere um idioma germanico - mais de 50% das palavras sao d'origem latina (inclusive o frances), embora a maioria das mais usadas sejam d'origem alema.

    Langue d'oïl, including French and Old Norman: 28.3%
    Latin, including modern scientific and technical Latin: 28.24%
    Germanic languages (including words directly inherited from Old English; does not include Germanic words coming from the Germanic element in French, Latin or other Romance languages): 25%
    Greek: 5.32%
    No etymology given: 4.03%
    Derived from proper names: 3.28%
    All other languages: less than 1%
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English...e#Word_origins

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    Depois de ver isto, é curioso que o ingles ainda se considere um idioma germanico - mais de 50% das palavras sao d'origem latina (inclusive o frances), embora a maioria das mais usadas sejam d'origem alema.
    English has ~1 million words in total. How many are used regularly? A few thousand and a few thousand more not so often.
    How many of those words are obscure and barely used? Perhaps 70% of the language.
    What are the most common words in English? Mainly Germanic and some French.
    What will the obscure words be? Mainly Greek, Latin and a few French words.

    If we cut English down to commonly used words then it'd be more like 50% Germanic, 35% French and 15% Latin in my opinion.


    English has so many words because our writers sort of went mad from the Middle Ages right through to the present day. English adopts many new and useless words every year and makes new ones up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Albion View Post
    English has ~1 million words in total. How many are used regularly? A few thousand and a few thousand more not so often.
    How many of those words are obscure and barely used? Perhaps 70% of the language.
    What are the most common words in English? Mainly Germanic and some French.
    What will the obscure words be? Mainly Greek, Latin and a few French words.

    If we cut English down to commonly used words then it'd be more like 50% Germanic, 35% French and 15% Latin in my opinion.



    English has so many words because our writers sort of went mad from the Middle Ages right through to the present day. English adopts many new and useless words every year and makes new ones up.
    Yes you are right in this respect.
    According to the link I posted:
    The majority (estimates range from roughly 50%[84] to more than 80%[85]) of the thousand most common English words are Germanic. However, the majority of more advanced words in subjects such as the sciences, philosophy and mathematics come from Latin or Greek, with Arabic also providing many words in astronomy, mathematics, and chemistry.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English...e#Word_origins
    (there is also a table below showing the percentages of the most common 100 words, 1000 words etc and their origins)

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    Why was he banned?

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    Repeatedly insulting and being rude to people. Apparently he was also not who he supposed to be.

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    lol

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