View Poll Results: Are Spaniards closer to Moroccans than to Swedes?

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  • Moroccans

    85 51.52%
  • Swedes

    86 52.12%
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Thread: Are Spaniards closer to Moroccans than to Swedes?

  1. #61
    Senior Member Svartálfar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mordid View Post
    Well, if that's the case, I know a lot of aliens and I know well how they look. They are not exactly green as what people imagined.
    I know a lot of poles too and they look mongoloid. Happy now bro?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordid View Post
    Based on internet, yeah.
    Based on Dodecad, yeah.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fresa Salvaje View Post
    Do you mean a half Black /half European person?
    Genetically, he will be far and out of the European cluster, and phenotipically he will look alien, most likely. It's obvious. Anyway, you are trolling, and I am feeding you. I let others do it instead.
    Don't Mordid me.
    I know I should be specified that a black person with European ancestry, for example, Afro-American.

  3. #63
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    I know a lot of poles too and they look mongoloid. Happy now bro?
    Are you sure they are Asian tourist?
    Based on Dodecad, yeah.
    Hello? I'm talking about look, not genetic.

  4. #64
    Veteran Member Amapola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korbis View Post
    The cultural links are noticeable in Andalusia
    Not even so.. appart from ruins, or confectionery, the Andalusian idiosyncracy, still deeply Catholic and even deeper in the past- is light years ahead of the idyosincrasy and attitude to life, either spiritual or material, of Morocco's.

    You need to read Fanjul.
    Last edited by Amapola; 02-05-2012 at 11:48 AM.

  5. #65
    Senior Member Korbis's Avatar
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    Yeah, and the flamenco which is basically an adaptation of yellings in arabic praising Allah.

    Also andalusians dont enjoy a very good reputation in certain parts of Spain due to their backwardness, not much better than moroccans actually.

  6. #66
    Veteran Member Amapola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korbis View Post
    Yeah, and the flamenco which is basically an adaptation of yellings in arabic praising Allah.
    Not really... I have always been interested in flamencologia by the way and I don't eat this simplistic argument. I quote myself:
    Flamenco is like a pińa colada with different types of influence. One could be some Anadalusi element, but this doesn't make it musica andalusí. Its biggests influence, and now be surprised, is Barroque popular music and a constant contact with Spanish American music. Experts locate him in the root-place as the Jota aragonesa. Fandango is the first known "flamenco" and is the father of the joropo llanero, of the peruvian marinera and the Chilean cueca... Likewise, experts on music can relate the musical background of flamenco with copla, tango argentino or even Portugese fado.
    En números aproximados, entre 1750 y 1850 se gesta y alumbra la mayor parte del folklore vivo espańol al día de hoy, incluidas algunas variantes muy especiales; como el cante grande, que por entonces no eran tan populares sino cosa de mu pocos. No está de más recordar la enemiga y el desprecio frontal que las clases ilustradas coetaneas dedicaban a tales manifestaciones, bárbaras y ajenas a la regeneración y modernización que el país requería.

    Otra cuestión para centrar la escena reside en otro fenómeno de psicología social cuyos cargadores anhelan enmascarar mediante la creencia en pasadas superioridades propias - en realidad, de la cultura a que se pertenece- frente a otros que deben a los espańoles tal o cual elemento de su vida, a ser posible brillante y exitoso en el cojunto de las sociedades humanas. Nada de extrańo tiene, pues, que los árabes o los gitanos se enorgullezcan de que los espańoles les deban el flamenco, aunque en puridad el asunto está menos que claro y no hayan caído en la cuenta de que en ningún país árabe o grupo gitano no espańol se canta-y menos se baila- nada similar al flamenco (y no digamos a sus ajenos tardíos). Por ańadidura, otros matice culturales podrían igualmente- caso de entretenerse en tales juegos retóricos- reivindicar la lejana dependencia de terceros: nos debéis el arado romano, la lengua haberos metido en la Historia, argumentarían los italianos; la polvora, el papel y qué sé yo cuántas más los chinos. Pero dejando de lado la caricatura, por desgracia los pueblos cuyo presente es lamentable o poco lucido buscan compensarse con una mitologización de la historia, convirtiendo en fábula feliz el tránsito de sus antepasados por la Tierra.

    Reconocer la humilde verdad de que no sabemos mucho acerca del origen y del desarrollo de los innumero géneros de la literatura oral es bandera de enganche poco espectacular y llamativa. Máxime cuando unos por interés de parte y otro por inercia, enarbolan certezas y seguridades inequívocas. En caso del cante jondo, a la tesis árabe (sic) se opone por definición la gitana, o más bien gitanista, bien delineada en sus pretensiones raciales:

    żPor que los gitanos balcánicos no catan y bailan algo semejante, o por qué los del norte europeo no cantan y bailan nada en absoluto? Los argumentos a favor del origen árabe y el gitano son intercambiables y reciprocamente excluyentes. Pero ahí llega la explicación mágica: los moriscos fugitivos comunicaron a los gitanos sus técnicas y saberes y surgió el cante jondo. Por supuesto, nadie pormenoriza qué proabilidades reales había de contacto y fusión de dos grupos tan cerradamente endogámicos, cuáles fueron esos elementos transmitidos, uándo y dónde se transmitieron ni en qué grado. Además tendría que haberse dao en el area geográfica donde tenemos probadas las primeras muestras del flamenco a finales del siglo XVIII (Cádiz, Jerez, los Puertos); sin embargo, los escasos mudéjares locales presentaban ya en esas fechas una notable aculturación, mientras que el grueso de los moriscos granadinos, que tanto se hacían notar por sus zambras y leylas, seguían otros rumbos en dispersión por castilla.

    Parece casi una obviedad admitir que unos cantos y bailes se apoyan en otros anteriores, siendo la lenta elaboración de unas formas deudora de otras, muertas del todo o en parte. El emplazamiento geográfico asociado a las migraciones ha sido determinante en la evolución y consolidación de los cantos andaluces, flamencos o no. Si Andalucía se ha convertido, por la acuńación de estereotipos, en símbolo paradigmático de lo espańol, del mismo modo lo flamenco ha venido representar al cante andaluz por antonomasia: una parte ha ocupado el lugar del todo, favorecida por la tendencia a la simplificaión, cómoda, comercial y al parecer, imparable.

    A comienzos del XIX los bailes que más destacan son los boleros, al lado de las seguidillas y fandangos y en menor medida, los tientos y el zapateado. Los andaluces de la época se divertían en sus patios o corrales cantando o bailando seguidillas a la manera llana (no seguriyas gitanas), soleares, polos, tonadas, corridas (romances), tiranas... y a la par, en círculos restringidos de gentes semimarginales (que no siempre o ni siquiera la mayoría de las veces eran gitanos) en fase de gestación, se ensayaban las primitivas formas flamencas: son los tiempos del Planeta y el Fillo, de MŞ de las Nieves y Juan de Dios. Mientras, el baile popular se basaba en pareja, enfrentamiento de galanteo, con persecución y escabullidas de la mujer que vuelve luego a plantar cara al varón: son las sevillanas, el fandango, las malagueńas, los verdiales.A nada de todoeso, ni en el plano de la psicología individual, de las formas de relación humana o de talante colectivo, se le puede encontrar entronque musulmán alguno ni gitano.

    El flamenco nació en Cádiz como manifestación artistica de un tipo humano cuyo desgarro y tragedia vital cotidiana refleja a la perfección (de ahí las frecuentes alusiones al hospital, la cárcel, la muerte en todas sus posibilidades trágicas). Ese personaje es heredero del pícaro de otros tienpos y no exclusivo de Andalucía ni de Espańa. Sin embargo, en ese medio el majo metido a cantaor (no necesariamene gitano) hubo de adaptar los mimbres que encontrara para fabricar el cesto de sus canciones, desarrollando una profesionalidad que condujo de inmediato al cante a ser un producto de divos, y por tanto, ajeno a lo popular, y cosechando la reprobación de las clases trabajadoras andaluzas durante el s XIX (anarquistas, socialistas), que veían en quienes lo cultivaban una suerte de sujetos aplicados a la diversión servil de las clases superiores que lo habían aceptado como resultado de la plebeyización de la alta sociedad operada en el XIX y más tarde denunciada por Ortega. El éxito relativo que finalmente alcanzó entre la poblacińon andaluza le viene de rebote y a través de esa previa adopción por parte de las gentes adineradas, que fueron también el conducto por donde se descubre la rentabilidad económica que podía extraersele.
    Also andalusians dont enjoy a very good reputation in certain parts of Spain due to their backwardness, not much better than moroccans actually.
    Is this any type of argument at all?

    The fake image of Moorish Spain can't be put down to Andalusians per se, who are and have always been fierce anti-Muslism for obvious reasons. Liberalism is to blame, also author of Europeism. As a matter of fact, flamenco was first promoted by the liberal Isabel II when she found out it could make money.

    And something said on the forum too:
    Andalusia –or rather parts of it– is in some ways different –i.e. different to other Spanish territories– not because of any Muslim imprint.

    This difference lies in the establishment of some sort of neo-feudalism mostly transplanted from Europe by the Habsburgs, based on the latifundia land system, and which was possible because of the extremely low demography of large parts of Andalucia following the times of the Reconquista. Still in the late 18th century new settlers were wanted in large parts of Andalucia.

    And, in contrast, in some aspects large parts of Andalucia could be argued to have more in common with New World settlements than with the old Europe. If it wasn't for its long and rich story of culture and unique history.
    Last edited by Amapola; 02-05-2012 at 12:12 PM.

  7. #67
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    I voted both. I think physically people tend to see them as closer to Moroccans given that the stereotype of spaniards is a 'swarthy' med. appearance, while moroccans are stereotyped as even swarthier, whereas we think of swedes as pale and blond/blue eyed.

    Of course this is not necessarily the case. On average, I see spaniards more as a completely seperate appearance onto themselves (that is, they dont look like moroccans or swedes on average, but like spaniards - seperate from the two groups). However, I can see how people would associate them as being closer to moroccans in appearance given stereotypes, even if they genetically cluster closer with scandinavians.

    Which is why I voted for both. I think the argument can be made for both sides.

  8. #68
    Alma portuguesa Damiăo de Góis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korbis View Post
    Spaniards/Iberians were actually pretty dark-complected centuries before the Moorish invasion, according to Roman historians. Atleast the "peasant" types (visigoths were just the rulers).

    I know its a joke thread, just saying.
    Interesting, do you have any link so that i can read it? There were no visigoths or "peasant" types in Roman times anyway, monarchy and the visigoths came later.

  9. #69
    Veteran Member Anthropologique's Avatar
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    Genetically, Spaniards are closer to Swedes. It's a pretty well-known fact.

  10. #70
    ШИПТAP Sturmgewehr's Avatar
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    It is such an inadequate comparison.

    Culturally, I don't know, I think Spanish have their Unique culture which doesn't resemble the Moroccan culture neither the Swedish one

    When we are talking about Phenotype then they are closer to Moroccans I guess.

    Genetically, I don't know, maybe they are closer to the Swedes but still they are far from Swedish people and Genetically Spain should be distant from Swedes and Moroccans and cluster with Basque, South French and Portuguese.

    Linguistically they should be closer to Swedes since they speak an Indo European Language but even in that case Spanish is a Latin Language whereas Swedish a Germanic language so still Spanish would be closer to other Latin Languages, obviously.

    Geographically they are closer to Moroccans.

    I voted Moroccan since Spain and Morocco overlap Phenotypically and also they are geographically very close.
    Last edited by Sturmgewehr; 02-05-2012 at 07:42 PM.

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