Neanderthals ‘had sex’ with modern man

[Zyklop]

From The Sunday Times
October 25, 2009

Neanderthals ‘had sex’ with modern man

Jonathan Leake, Science Editor

Modern humans and Neanderthals had sex across the species barrier, according to a leading geneticist who is overseeing a project to compare their genomes.

Professor Svante Paabo, director of genetics at the renowned Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, will shortly publish his analysis of the entire Neanderthal genome, using DNA retrieved from fossils. He aims to compare it with the genomes of modern humans and chimpanzees to work out the ancestry of all three species.

Modern humans arrived in Europe from Africa about 40,000 years ago to find Neanderthals already living there. The two species then co-existed for 10,000-12,000 years before Neanderthals died out — a fact that has caused endless academic speculation about whether they interbred.
Paabo recently told a conference at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory near New York that he was now sure the two species had had sex — but a question remained about how “productive” it had been.

“What I’m really interested in is, did we have children back then and did those children contribute to our variation today?” he said. “I’m sure that they had sex, but did it give offspring that contributed to us? We will be able to answer quite rigorously with the new [Neanderthal genome] sequence.”

Such an answer might ease the controversy over recent contradictory discoveries regarding Neanderthals. Some fossils seem to have both modern human and Neanderthal features, suggesting that the two species interbred. Yet DNA scans have shown that Neanderthal genes were very different from those of modern man.

Last week Professor Chris Stringer, head of human origins at the Natural History Museum, presented a conference at the Royal Society in London with an idea that could accommodate both sets of evidence.

“It’s possible that Neanderthals and humans were genetically incompatible, so they could have interbred but their children would have been less fertile,” said Stringer.

This phenomenon is seen in many other species such as when lions breed with tigers and horses breed with zebras.

“I used to believe Neanderthals were primitive,” said Stringer, “but in the last 10,000-15,000 years before they died out, around 30,000 years ago, Neanderthals were giving their dead complex burials and making tools and jewellery, such as pierced beads, like modern humans.”

Due to the length of time that has elapsed since Neanderthals became extinct, any trace of their DNA in modern humans could have been diluted below detectable levels. Paabo hopes to overcome this by scanning the Neanderthal genome for the genes of modern humans.http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/biology_evolution/article6888874.ece

[Thulsa Doom]

It´s interesting that Pääbo comes forward with this obvious conclusion at this moment. He and his team must have come pretty far in their research, so maybe he is dropping hints to cover up his previous position.

I believe that intermingling is unavoidable when a related "species" advances into a new territory. Considering that all cat species can interbreed even though some of them are more then 5 million years apart genetically, it would be strange if two close relatives like Cro-Magnon and Neanderthals could not.

[Lutiferre]

I want to have sex with a neanderthal.

[Lutiferre]

I want to have sex with a neanderthal.

Scratch that, I meant with a human.. no, a deer.. no.. just forget it.

[The Black Prince]

Paabo recently told a conference at the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory near New York that he was now sure the two species had had sex — but a question remained about how “productive” it had been.
This is indeed something...

Earlier the geneticists claimed that although Neanderthals and Archaic Modern Human (AMH) might have met eachother, there was no single evidience for sexual relationship. They said it might have been but it's pure speculation. And now Paabo himslef said: that the two species had had sex, that is quite a change.

Reproducing does seem to be still questionable. Earlier in 2008 they established the date of divergence at between modern humans and Neanderthals as 660 kya (95% certainty), this seems large but when you combine it with the divergence time between Sudanids and Europids (140kya) it might not be as large. The divergence time between the AMH and Neanderthals would be less of course since you can subtract at least 30kya of the divergence time (and perhaps more taking the Levant situation in view).
It shall in my opinion more depend on how far the two kinds have been driven out of eachother qua physicall structure.

The example they used of lions and tigers is nice to illustrate, and to be honest I don't know the divergence time between the two of them (a few millions yrs I guess). But even if it would be less as a million years ago, when you recalculate it to the number of generations that have passed for lions and tiger it is many and many times more as the number of generations that have passed between the Neanderthals and AMH

Sources:
Green et al. (2008). A Complete Neandertal Mitochondrial Genome Sequence Determined by High-Throughput Sequencing. (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WSN-4T5BPWS-C&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=b3f0796f536e00deb7364ea49f835ea6)

Gutenkunst et al. (2009). Inferring the Joint Demographic History of Multiple Populations from Multidimensional SNP Frequency Data. (http://www.plosgenetics.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pgen.1000695)

[Fortis in Arduis]

Wow, that is just SO sensational!!!

Next page:

Tits and aZZ!!!

[sturmwalkure]

Now we know where Al-Frankawi came from. ;)

[Mesrine]

Now we know where Al-Frankawi came from. ;)

What is Neanderthal in me? :D

[Lutiferre]

This is indeed something...

Earlier the geneticists claimed that although Neanderthals and Archaic Modern Human (AMH) might have met eachother, there was no single evidience for sexual relationship. They said it might have been but it's pure speculation. And now Paabo himslef said: that the two species had had sex, that is quite a change.

But where is the change in terms of evidence?

All I have seen is the statement "I am sure they had sex", which might as well be a private sexual fantasy made into a "scientific" assumption.

If there was even a proportion of the difference between humans today and other hominids, then the scenario doesn't seem comparable to tigers and lions at all; because the difference lies in the modern human, unlike any other creature.

So I see little to no reason to expect any major kind of interbreeding or attraction. The differences would probably be recognized and either separation or war would be the response.

But that there should be some fringe cases of sex seems to me to be an insignificant and unanswerable speculation; it seems not to be substantially different from the fringe number of people who practice beastiality today with various other creatures.

[The Black Prince]

^sigh, just saw all that typefast errors of me.:D

But I'm curious too about that.. Paabo is not the type that speculates wildly about sexual fantasies on congresses.

[sturmwalkure]

What is Neanderthal in me? :D

Just look in the mirror.

[Lutiferre]

Just look in the mirror.
You're asking too much. I am not sure a neanderthal has the intellectual capacity to recognise itself in the mirror.

[sturmwalkure]

You're asking too much. I am not sure a neanderthal can pass the Turing Test (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test).

You're right, :D We can't expect too much from Al-Frankawi (I mean Trolli).

http://bookreviewsbybobbie.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/troll.jpg

[Mesrine]

Just look in the mirror.

I don't have any Neanderthal feature. FAIL.



You're right, :D We can't expect too much from Al-Frankawi (I mean Trolli).

For sure you can't expect me to follow your batshit insane delusions. :lol00001:

[sturmwalkure]

I don't have any Neanderthal feature. FAIL.

For sure you can't expect me to follow your batshit insane delusions. :lol00001:

You sure have some trollish traits my friend. :thumb001:

[Kadu]

Two words... RACIAL TRAGEDY!:D:p

[Allenson]

Anyone remember this Neanderthal woman reconstruction?

Come here, big boy.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/neanderthal.woman.1.jpg

I like this kind of cavewoman better: ;)

http://www.nerve.com/CS/blogs/scanner/2009/05/08-15/cavewoman.jpg

[sturmwalkure]

Anyone remember this Neanderthal woman reconstruction?

Come here, big boy.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/neanderthal.woman.1.jpg


I hope Al-Frankawi has a key-board cover after he see's that one. ;)

[Inese]

I want to have sex with a neanderthal.
Hm fly to paradise Russia!! :rolleyes2:

http://www.stargods.org/TheyLiveNikolaiValuevEyes2.jpg
http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/bridget/valuev_1.jpg
http://www.donking.com/news/germany_83008/valuevruiz_robe.jpg

[lei.talk]

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/neanderthal.woman.1.jpg

I hope Al-Frankawi has a key-board cover after he see's that one. ;)she is not swarthy. :icon1:
a shampoo with a long soak in a hot-tub
and she would resemble many middle-aged european women.

[Tabiti]

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/neanderthal.woman.1.jpg
Do I see an epicantus? :D

[SilverFish]

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/neanderthal.woman.1.jpg
Do I see an epicantus? :D

You mean the external hanging eye fold?:confused:

Isn't that a faelid trait?

[SilverFish]

Hm fly to paradise Russia!! :rolleyes2:

http://www.stargods.org/TheyLiveNikolaiValuevEyes2.jpg
http://blogs.rockymountainnews.com/bridget/valuev_1.jpg
http://www.donking.com/news/germany_83008/valuevruiz_robe.jpg

It's pretty obvious that he is a caveman. Look at how much body hair he has!!!

[Osweo]

Anyone remember this Neanderthal woman reconstruction?

Come here, big boy.

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/neanderthal.woman.1.jpg
Now be honest, gentlemen. The girl above, or this one:
http://www.slv.vic.gov.au/pictoria/a/1/3/im/a13643.jpg

I've seen plenty of women worse than the Neanderthal reconstruction above. Most of them pushing pushchairs. :eek:

I like this kind of cavewoman better: ;)
http://www.nerve.com/CS/blogs/scanner/2009/05/08-15/cavewoman.jpg
And probably so did Mr. Neanderthal... Shouldn't the thread title rather be 'Neanderthals had sex with modern woman? :(

(And maybe Heidi Klum type perversions were not unknown back then, either...)

[Crimson Guard]

These headlines are misleading as nothing new was stated by him nor does he have any evidence that they did have sex let alone produced offspring. He just believes they did. The Neanderthal genome which they keep reminding us that will be released is most anticipated though, as it finally put to rest the big question.

[lei.talk]

http://www.femininebeauty.info/f/neanderthal.woman.1.jpg
All humans initially develop epicanthic folds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicanthic_fold) in the womb. Some children lose them by birth, but epicanthic folds may also be seen in young children of any ethnicity before the bridge of the nose begins to elevate. They may persist where birth is pre-term, and sometimes also where the mother is alcoholic.

If the epicanthic fold appears on people who traditionally do not display the characteristic, it can be a sign of a number of disorders coupled with other symptoms like mental retardation, weak muscles, etc. Epicanthic fold in people who do not traditionally display the characteristic can be a result of low genetic diversity characteristics caused by inbreeding depression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inbreeding_depression), pedigree collapse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_collapse), cultural isolation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation), endogamy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endogamy), etc. or medical conditions like Down syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_syndrome), Cri du chat syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cri_du_chat) and Williams syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Williams_syndrome), three chromosomal abnormalities that are associated with severe intellectual disability. Another condition in which this is seen is Triple-X syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_X_syndrome), a chromosomal abnormality that does not necessarily impair intelligence. Epicanthic folds can also be caused by fetal alcohol syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_alcohol_syndrome), Ehlers-Danlos syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ehlers-Danlos_syndrome) and/or pre-term birth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterm_birth).

Some African ethnic groups also have epicanthic folds; these include the Khoisans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khoisan) (Capoids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capoid_race)) in Africa and certain groups from southern Sudan such as the Dinka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinka) and the Nuer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuer).

Epicanthic folds are also found in a minority of Europeans having no known Asian background, especially in eastern Europe and across northern Europe in areas such as Scandinavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia).

[Guapo]

You mean the external hanging eye fold?:confused:

Isn't that a faelid trait?

Yes.

[Crimson Guard]

Eastern and Northern Europe does have some Uralic and Mongoloid admixture though.

Here is something from Earnest Hooton on Eye Types:

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3875/eyes1ym8.jpg (http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=eyes1ym8.jpg)



Poets and novelists rhapsodize about the color and expression of eyes, the arch of the eyebrows, and the length of the eye-lashes, but the form of the eye opening and the variations of the soft parts are left to the anthropologist for accurate description. If you really want to describe a pair of eyes with precision, consult the French anthropologist Bertillon in his instructions for policemen. There is nothing of beauty or romance in a French detectives description of a criminals eyes; it does not grip the imagination, but it does catch the criminal.

We all recognize that the eye of the Mongolian differs markedly from that of the European because of its slant and its narrow opening. There are perhaps only two sharply contrasted variates of the eye in modern man--the Mongoloid eye and the non-Mongoloid eye. The non-Mongoloid eye tends to be more or less deeply recessed in its orbit or socket and in the male is usually overhung by the brow ridges and the eyebrows. The Mongoloid eye characteristically fills the orbit and protrudes slightly, but lack of development of brow ridges and the scantly eyebrows of the Mongoloid contribute to this appearance. Often in the Mongolian eye the outer half of the eyeball or that portion of it covered by the upper lid seems to be in the same vertical plane as the forehead immediately above it. Another reason why the Mongoloid eye seems toi fill the orbit is that it is extremely fatty with very thick lids. We usually think of slanting eyes as having the outer corners higher than the inner. Actually the transverse axis of the eye opening, from the inner to the outer corner, may slope upward and outward, downward and outward, or may be horizontal. Mongoloid eyes, it us true, usually the external corners elevated and a similar slant of the eye, but not as marked, may often be observed in Europeans. Most eyes that are not slanted upward are horizontal, but not a few narrow-faced people show a slight downward and outward inclination of the axis of the eyes. Incidentally eyes slanted upward are not usually observed in narrow-faced persons; the horizontal position of the eye opening is very common in broad-faced people, and is characteristic of the most who have broad faces but lack the Mongoloid eye.

Another feature of the Mongoloid is the small vertical opening which gives it a sit-like appearance. This is due in a measure to the thick and overhanging upper lid, which often has a fold of skin that drops down over the free edge of the eyelid, partially obscuring the eyelashes. Indeed the principal mark of the Mongoloid is the arrangement of the these upper lid folds. When the typical European eye is wide and open the upper lid shows a fold or wrinkle running almost parallel to the free edge of the eyelid, but approaching it more closely at the corners that at the center. The edge of the eyelid fro which the lashes grow is exposed all the way from the outer to the inner corner. At the inner corner of each eye is a small reddish conical body called the caruncula lachrymalis, a small island of skin containing sweat and oil glands. In the European eye the caruncula is fully exposed. In the Mongolian eye a fold of skin may overhang the free edge of the upper eyelid from its outer corner clear across the eyeball sweeping downward over the inner corner and concealing the caruncula lachrymalis. This is the compete Mongoloid fold. Often it is not recognized as a fold since it traverses the entire eyelid, obscuring the edge but showing no wrinkle. A common modification of this complete Mongoloid fold is the inner or internal epicanthic fold, often referred to as the "Mongoloid fold." This internal epicanthus begins on the innter or medial parts of the upper eyelid in a fold which overs the free edge of the inner part and extends downward concealing the caruncula.

A third variety of fold is the external, epicanthus, which I call the "Nordic fold." This begins somewhere about the middle of the upper lid and crosses the external corner of the eye, obscuring it and the free edge of the outer portion of the upper lid. A much rarer type of eye is the median or cover fold. This is a loop or fold of skin that hangs down over the middle part of the upper lid, covering the edge in that portion, but leaving exposed both canthi or eye corners. The median fold may occur as a continuation of either the internal or external epicanthic folds.

The anatomical significance of these various eye folds is not altogether clear, but there are certain obvious relationships between the forms of the eye fold and the architecture of the adjacent parts of the face. Both the complete Mongolian fold and the inner epicanthic fold are usually fold in persons whose eyes are far apart and whose nasal roots are low and broad. The flat nasal root leaves the skin on either side loose, and makes possible its folding over the inner corner of the eye. In narrow, high nasal roots the skin is stretched tightly over the arched nasal bones and there is no slack available for the epicanthic fold. European children, especially those of central and eastern European origin, often show inner epicanthic fold during the first few years of their life, since the root and the bridge of the nose low during infancy. But with the growth of the facial skeleton and the eruption of the permanent teeth, the nasal bridge rises and the epicanthic fold ordinarily disappears. Usually Europeans who have had an epicanthic fold in infancy show trace of it in a slight ridge or elevation running downward between the inner corner of the eye and the nasal root. The inner epicathus goes with a concave type of face, small development of the glabella and brow ridge, shallow orbits, and eyeballs which protrusive or any rate, not sunken.

Wherever there is an eye fold there is a slackness of the skin. Over prominent bony eminences the skin is, on the contrary, tightly stretched. The eyes of the Mongoloids do not usually show a fold obscuring the outer corner of the eye, because the cheek bones or malars jut out strongly sideways, stretching the skin around the outer corner of the eye and taking all the of the slack. On the other hand, the low nasal root and bridge in the center of the face leave a loose skin fold which may overhang the inner corner. The external fold usually occurs under precisely opposite conditions of facial architecture. The malars are flat or compressed, leaving slack skin at the outer corner of the eye, while in the center the skin is stretched tightly over the high nasal root and bridge. There is also an age difference in the distribution of these two varities of epicanthic fold. The inner epicanthus or "Mongoloid fold" is most likely to appear in the young, because the lack of height development of the nasal root is an infantile feature. The outer epicanthus or "Nordic fold" rarely if ever occurs in the young subjects and is especially marked in the middle-aged and elderly persons in whom the brow ridges have reached their full projection and the skin of the upper eyelid has begun to lose its elasticity and to bag, just as it "pouches" below the lower eyelids. Because females are more infantile than males in the lack of development of nasal height and in the absence or small size of the brow ridges, the inner epicanthus is more common in women, and conversely the outer epicathus may be observed oftener in men. Flat temples, deeply recessed eyeballs, and overhanging brow ridges are conditions favoring the development of the "Nordic fold".

I am inclined to think that the median or cover fold usually occurs in faces in which a broad inter-orbital space with a high nasal root is combined with projecting cheekbones and deeply recessed eyeballs. The skin tension casued by the projecting cheek bones and high nasal root prevents epicanthic folds, but the recession of the eyeball causes the slack of the upper lid to droop down over the middle portion of the eye. None of these features have been studied intensively yet, and the foreging remarks are largely based upon my own impressions.

The Mongoloid eye with its inner epicanthus or complete Mongoloid fold is found in varying degrees of development in most races Mongoloid stock or Mongoloid intermixture. When it occurs in non-Mongoloid peoples it is probably due to appearance of a Mongoloid strain latent in the ancestry, unless it be a pathological feature as in cretins and so-called "Mongoloid idiots." Ancestral exuberance, not thyroid deficiency, is the normal cause. The distribution of the outer epicanthus or "Nordic" fold is not accuratly know, since its existence has been recognized only recently. It does seem to occur oftenest in the narrow-faced, flat cheeked Nordics with deeply recessed eyes. It may be observed as an old age phenomenon, however, in some other groups. Present knowledge does not permit us to conclude that strain of Nordic blood is present in the individuals having the external fold. But inner epicanthus is, on the contrary, a strong evidence of Mongoloid blood. There is no way of measuring the Mongolian eye, it must be observed; but it is one of the most characteristic human features whereby race may be distinguished. Curiously enough, the great Asiatic anthropoid--the orang-utan--sometimes shows inner epicantus, while the Africa apes never have it, although they also have flat nasal roots.

[Guapo]

but epicanthic folds may also be seen in young children of any ethnicity before the bridge of the nose begins to elevate.

That's true. I looked like a blond Asian when I was a baby but then again, I am "Slavic" :p

[Lutiferre]

Eastern and Northern Europe does have some Uralic and Mongoloid admixture though.

(insert outdated pseudoscience invalidated by the knowledge of genetics and physiology in modern biology)

While you may be right (or wrong), whatever came after your claim was BS.

[Guapo]

Look at how much body hair he has!!!

That's cuz he's got more testosterone than Sylvester Stallone, yo.