Southern Italians are closer to Jews than to other Europeans

[Loki]

Shocking reality:

http://abload.de/img/mfa_eurogenes_mdszzo3v.png

I'd say it's probably due to early Phoenician settlement.

[Smeagol]

It's not very shocking. Jews are likely half North Italian, half ancient Israelite, so they cluster in south Italy.

[Sikeliot]

This has been quite well known for some time. I mean, you only have to look at far southern Italians and Sicilians to know this.

[Peyrol]

Shocking reality:

http://abload.de/img/mfa_eurogenes_mdszzo3v.png

I'd say it's probably due to early Phoenician settlement.

North Italians match with french and spaniards.

Not surprising.

I wonder why tuscans are a genetic isolated population. For the etruscans?

[Loki]

Jews are likely half North Italian, half ancient Israelite, so they cluster in south Italy.

No, it's the other way around. Look at that map.

[MINARDOWICZ]

Just look at a lot of Italians in cinema... JEWS! :p

[Loki]

I wonder why tuscans are a genetic isolated population. For the etruscans?

Yes, that surprised me as well.

[Peyrol]

Yes, that surprised me as well.

I mean, except for the Appennines, they aren't geographically isolated as the sardinians/corsicans.

I found some studies in italian about genetic of modern and renaissance/medieval tuscans where the ancient anatolian origin of etruscans (as Erodotus wrote) was proved.

http://www.repubblica.it/2007/06/sezioni/scienza_e_tecnologia/etruschi-dna-turchia/etruschi-dna-turchia/etruschi-dna-turchia.html

This explain also why some turk scores ''tuscan'' on 23andMe.

[Smeagol]

No, it's the other way around. Look at that map.

South Italian West Asian ancestry comes mostly from the Neolithic farmer expansions. The Phoenicians had some genetic impact on Sicily, but that's about it. Ashkenazi Jews are the result of Israelites mixing with Italians during Roman times, with a slight German influence from the middle ages.

[YeshAtid]

South Italian West Asian ancestry comes mostly from the Neolithic farmer expansions. The Phoenicians had some genetic impact on Sicily, but that's about it. Ashkenazi Jews are the result of Israelites mixing with Italians during Roman times, with a slight German influence from the middle ages.

This, though israelites did settle in italy for a while.

[Loki]

South Italian West Asian ancestry comes mostly from the Neolithic farmer expansions. The Phoenicians had some genetic impact on Sicily, but that's about it. Ashkenazi Jews are the result of Israelites mixing with Italians during Roman times, with a slight German influence from the middle ages.

Again, please look at that map. Southern Italians are not only closer to Jews, but other Middle Easterners as well.

[YeshAtid]

Again, please look at that map. Southern Italians are not only closer to Jews, but other Middle Easterners as well.

Because they all have a Levantine component.

[Smeagol]

Again, please look at that map. Southern Italians are not only closer to Jews, but other Middle Easterners as well.

Yes, as I said this is because of Neolithic West Asian ancestry.

[Loki]

Yes, as I said this is because of Neolithic West Asian ancestry.

Yes, that could be.

[Black Wolf]

It really is not that shocking or surprising. Southern Italians and Jews are so similar genetically because they come from a similar mix of ancient populations many of which have ancient origins in West Asia/Near East. The ancestors of Ashkenazi Jews lived in Italy before they expanded into Northern and Eastern Europe. They have old Italian admixture in their population as well. True also some Southern Italians have some Jewish ancestors from converts and what not but on the whole I don't think it is that high.

[Sikeliot]

What I want to know is why some Dominicans are near the Italians and Greeks. Don't they have enough African ancestry to pull them toward North Africa at least?

I am also noticing the Greeks. A few drift toward Turks.. likely Anatolians. The ones near the South Italians are probably the islanders, and then some end up near Tuscans and Balkan groups and must be from the mainland.

[Stormer99]

What I want to know is why some Dominicans are near the Italians and Greeks. Don't they have enough African ancestry to pull them toward North Africa at least?

I am also noticing the Greeks. A few drift toward Turks.. likely Anatolians. The ones near the South Italians are probably the islanders, and then some end up near Tuscans and Balkan groups and must be from the mainland.

Maybe they are like 94% Spanish and 6% SSA and it makes them cluster in a weird place?

[Sikeliot]

Also, I notice that southern Italians end up taking up the space between Tuscans and Jews. The ones nearer the Tuscans must be Campanians.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Just a few things:

1) Not all that surprising.

2) Med component is broadly defined. Neolithic could theoretically have brought West Asian and east Med genes as well.

3) Tuscan as a reference population is indeed vexing. I often wonder why myself but do know that Tuscans have apparently one of if not the highest amounts of Neanderthal admixture among Europeans. Italy was actually a place of refugium too during the Last Glacial Maximum. Tuscans theoretically may also represent a type of mean or modal expression of Neolithic genes as well particularly West Asian given what we some feel regarding Etruscan origins.

[Sikeliot]

2) Med component is broadly defined. Neolithic could theoretically have brought West Asian and east Med genes as well.

My theory is that there were multiple Neolithic waves.
I think one of them was a Pontid or East Med-like Anatolian people who came out of Anatolia and contributed a significant amount to Greek genes and brought E1b1b and G2.
I think the other was an Armenoid/Assyrid/East Med mixed population from the Levant or Mesopotamia, and contributed to Sicily and southern Italy as well as the Aegean islands and Cypriots, bringing J2 and T.

I think then, with the Greek colonization of southern Italy, both types became a significant part of the population.

[Peyrol]

Also, I notice that southern Italians end up taking up the space between Tuscans and Jews. The ones nearer the Tuscans must be Campanians.

Umbrians and Romans/latials i presume.
It would be curious to see 23andMe results of some full-blooded romans like Daniele de Rossi, Tiberio Timperi or Francesco Totti.s

[Vesuvian Sky]

My theory is that there were multiple Neolithic waves.
I think one of them was a Pontid or East Med-like Anatolian people who came out of Anatolia and contributed a significant amount to Greek genes and brought E1b1b and G2.
I think the other was an Armenoid/Assyrid/East Med mixed population from the Levant or Mesopotamia, and contributed to Sicily and southern Italy as well as the Aegean islands and Cypriots, bringing J2 and T.

I think then, with the Greek colonization of southern Italy, both types became a significant part of the population.

I basically agree. There is probably a more local component too of the Med. that was pre-Neolithic as well.

[Sikeliot]

Umbrians and Romans/latials i presume.
It would be curious to see 23andMe results of some full-blooded romans like Daniele de Rossi, Tiberio Timperi or Francesco Totti.s

Central Italians, from what I am seeing on Dodecad and Eurogenes, have about the same ratio of Northern, Med, and Near Eastern genes as continental Greeks, but their northern input is more western, not Baltic.

[Sikeliot]

I basically agree. There is probably a more local component too of the Med. that was pre-Neolithic as well.

That is true as well. This is the ancestral component that unites all Southern Europeans together, but it seems to be able to be split into Atlantic-Baltic and Near Eastern too (Sardinians, if you check my last thread, get 44% Near East and 56% Atlantic-Baltic).

[alfieb]

Eurogenes doesn't mean shit.

[Peyrol]

Sardinia is probabily the true nucleous of the original mediterranean race, and probabily of 3/4 of modern european subraces.
That's why Oetzi, who lived in ancient Austria, was almost like a modern sardinian.

Plus, another interesting study about the great and significative protosardinian contribute to european repopulation after ice ages:

http://www.moebiusonline.eu/fuorionda/doc/art_postglac2009.pdf

[Smaug]

What is EUBR? European-Brazilian? This symbol appears amongst the most common European ancestries in Brazil, specially between North Italian and Portuguese.

[Peyrol]

What is EUBR? European-Brazilian? This symbol appears amongst the most common European ancestries in Brazil, specially between North Italian and Portuguese.

I don't know, but on 23andMe venetians (which made up a great part of italian-brazilians) are exactly in the southern euro-northern euro border. Maybe it's just this?

http://oi42.tinypic.com/qsvcqu.jpg
http://oi44.tinypic.com/20szoyo.jpg

[Damião de Góis]

What is EUBR? European-Brazilian? This symbol appears amongst the most common European ancestries in Brazil, specially between North Italian and Portuguese.

It's Euro-Brazilian.

[Sikeliot]

I don't know, but on 23andMe venetians (which made up a great part of italian-brazilians) are exactly in the southern euro-northern euro border. Maybe it's just this?


The people pulled toward Basques just west of that North Italian, are the Iberians. The people east of that north Italian are Greeks, and the people south of that are all the other Italians and Greeks.

[Smaug]

I don't know, but on 23andMe venetians (which made up a great part of italian-brazilians) are exactly in the southern euro-northern euro border. Maybe it's just this?

http://oi42.tinypic.com/qsvcqu.jpg
http://oi44.tinypic.com/20szoyo.jpg

Alex said it's Euro-Brazilian, so that's it. It makes sense, reflects very well the European immigration to the country, specially the Venetians as you said.

[Prince Carlo]

Probably the fact that mainland South Italians are almost 100% Caucasoid, unlike Boers, might play a role in that.

[d3cimat3d]

Eurogenes doesn't mean shit.

Well it has been proven in almost every other PCA as well.


Probably the fact that mainland South Italians are almost 100% Caucasoid, unlike Boers, might play a role in that.

Unnecessary insult. Why do you get upset with Sicilians being similar to Jews? Italians also have the Cohen Modal haplotype:


and some suggested that 4/4 matches in non-Jewish Italians might be a genetic inheritance from Jewish slaves, deported by Emperor Titus in large numbers after the fall of the Temple in AD 70, some of whom were put to work building the Colosseum in Rome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosomal_Aaron#Other_carriers_of_the_DNA

[Sikeliot]

Southern Italians, Greek islanders, Sicilians, and Jews are all very alike; appearance, attitude, genetics. It's obvious to anyone who meets a lot of any of them.

[Prince Carlo]

Unnecessary insult. Why do you get upset with Sicilians being similar to Jews?

Telling the truth isn't an insult. See I am not the one who has started a thread about Boer genetics. Nor that I really care.


Italians also have the Cohen Modal haplotype:

Also Hungarians have it. Read the article in the link.

[alfieb]

Probably the fact that mainland South Italians are almost 100% Caucasoid, unlike Boers, might play a role in that.
Loki is only 1% black

[Sikeliot]

Loki is only 1% black

He's the same amount black as my mother -- somewhere between 2 and 4% depending on the calculator.

[Tooting Carmen]

Southern Italians, Greek islanders, Sicilians, and Jews are all very alike; appearance, attitude, genetics. It's obvious to anyone who meets a lot of any of them.

Surely Jews, both genetically and phenotypically, are much more Semitic/Arabid than the other three? For example, this councillor from York, David Levene, cannot be anything other than Jewish:
http://www.yorklabour.org.uk/images/250davidlevene.jpg

[Prince Carlo]

He's the same amount black as my mother -- somewhere between 2 and 4% depending on the calculator.

Add the South and East Asian to that. Boers were quite famous for mixing with Malay and Bengalis.

[Trun]

It's a well known fact that Southern Italians are a bit more European version of Levantines, while Portuguese and Spaniards are a bit more Med version of Brits. No need for studies for this.

[Sikeliot]

Surely Jews, both genetically and phenotypically, are much more Semitic/Arabid than the other three? For example, this councillor from York, David Levene, cannot be anything other than Jewish:
http://www.yorklabour.org.uk/images/250davidlevene.jpg

Genetically, not by much. Phenotypically, to a small extent yes.

[LightHouse89]

how are Jews Italian? He looks Joowi$h.

[LightHouse89]

Again, please look at that map. Southern Italians are not only closer to Jews, but other Middle Easterners as well.

Boers look black to me.

[Tooting Carmen]

It's a well known fact that Southern Italians are a bit more European version of Levantines, while Portuguese and Spaniards are a bit more Med version of Brits. No need for studies for this.

A bit more??? A gross over-simplification in both of those examples, to say the least.

[Smeagol]

Surely Jews, both genetically and phenotypically, are much more Semitic/Arabid than the other three? For example, this councillor from York, David Levene, cannot be anything other than Jewish:
http://www.yorklabour.org.uk/images/250davidlevene.jpg

Isn't he Sephardic? Ashkenazis are closer to Sicilians than they are to Sephardics. Anyway, no, they aren't much more ''Semitic''.

[Tooting Carmen]

Genetically, not by much. Phenotypically, to a small extent yes.

Would the Milibands pass seamlessly as native Italians or Greeks?
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Admin/BkFill/Default_image_group/2010/5/17/1274119872588/milibands-006.jpg

[alfieb]

Would the Milibands pass seamlessly as native Italians or Greeks?
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Admin/BkFill/Default_image_group/2010/5/17/1274119872588/milibands-006.jpg

No.

Although I'm sure a Sicilian with downs might resemble Ed.

[Tooting Carmen]

Isn't he Sephardic? Ashkenazis are closer to Sicilians than they are to Sephardics. Anyway, no, they aren't much more ''Semitic''.

I don't know which type of Jew he is, I just found him on the York Council website. And how can Ashkenazis be closer to Sicilians than to Sephardics?

[Tooting Carmen]

No.

Thought not.

[Smeagol]

I don't know which type of Jew he is, I just found him on the York Council website. And how can Ashkenazis be closer to Sicilians than to Sephardics?

They have more European admixture, it's true they're closest to Sicilians than anyone else.

[Black Wolf]

Southern Italians, Greek islanders, Sicilians, and Jews are all very alike; appearance, attitude, genetics. It's obvious to anyone who meets a lot of any of them.

Some of the attitudes are similar yes. Southern Italians seem much tougher than Jews though on the whole lol.

[Damião de Góis]

It's a well known fact that Southern Italians are a bit more European version of Levantines, while Portuguese and Spaniards are a bit more Med version of Brits. No need for studies for this.

We aren't versions of anyone. I find that a bit insulting.

[Sikeliot]

Some of the attitudes are similar yes. Southern Italians seem much tougher than Jews though on the whole lol.

There was Mickey Cohen though!

[Sikeliot]

Would the Milibands pass seamlessly as native Italians or Greeks?
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Admin/BkFill/Default_image_group/2010/5/17/1274119872588/milibands-006.jpg


The one on the left looks like Jason Biggs, so yes. the other one no.

[Stormer99]

Southern Italians and Sicilians are basically the toughest people in the USA.

[Sikeliot]

Southern Italians and Sicilians are basically the toughest people in the USA.

I don't get that impression, actually. Most of the ones that I know act kind of wussy and metrosexual.

[Stormer99]

I don't get that impression, actually. Most of the ones that I know act kind of wussy and metrosexual.

Not my family. They are basically into things like the Godfather ect.. able to win fights...

[Anglojew]

A lot of southern Italians ARE Jews. Two waves; Roman era, Sephardi.

Not sure how shocking this is.

[Black Wolf]

I don't get that impression, actually. Most of the ones that I know act kind of wussy and metrosexual.

Are you serious? I have had the opposite impression by most at least in my home town. True there is a sub set that are metro like but that applies to every ethnic group.

[Black Wolf]

A lot of southern Italians ARE Jews. Two waves; Roman era, Sephardi.

Not sure how shocking this is.

Many Southern Italians probably have some Jewish ancestry but by far the majority of their ancestors are not Jews.

[alfieb]

Are you serious? I have had the opposite impression by most at least in my home town. True there is a sub set that are metro like but that applies to every ethnic group.
The ones who go to dance clubs are metro or LGBT.

The others are typically extremely macho.

[Sikeliot]

The ones who go to dance clubs are metro or LGBT.

The others are typically extremely macho.

Most of the ones I know are other gay men around my age, or family members.

[Sikeliot]

Many Southern Italians probably have some Jewish ancestry but by far the majority of their ancestors are not Jews.

At this point due to how much autosomal overlap exists between Italians, Greeks, and Jews as is, it's almost impossible for us to identify how much of southern Italian genes are Greek versus Italic versus Neolithic.

[YeshAtid]

Some of the attitudes are similar yes. Southern Italians seem much tougher than Jews though on the whole lol.

h

[Black Wolf]

Most of the ones I know are other gay men around my age, or family members.

Hmm maybe because you mostly hang out with gay men? There is NO way in hell that most Southern Italians are metro or whatever. Far from it my friend and you know it.

[Black Wolf]

The ones who go to dance clubs are metro or LGBT.

The others are typically extremely macho.

Yes exactly.

[Sikeliot]

Hmm maybe because you mostly hang out with gay men? There is NO way in hell that most Southern Italians are metro or whatever. Far from it my friend and you know it.

Well judging from photos of actual southern Italians, most of them look quite metro -- shaved eyebrows, tight clothes, hair similar to mine.

[YeshAtid]

Yes exactly.

I disproved your hypothesis

[Ozzy]

The ones who go to dance clubs are metro or LGBT.

The others are typically extremely macho.

Honestly, most of the ones I've met came across like the dance clubbish types, and they came across as very metrosexual.

Surely there are tougher Sicilians, but I haven't met any that I'm aware of.

[Black Wolf]

Well judging from photos of actual southern Italians, most of them look quite metro -- shaved eyebrows, tight clothes, hair similar to mine.

Dude that is a sub culture within the US like guidos. The guys from Jersey Shore may look a bit metro or whatever but they are not pussies or homos that is for sure.

[Black Wolf]

I disproved your hypothesis

How?

[YeshAtid]

How?


Some of the attitudes are similar yes. Southern Italians seem much tougher than Jews though on the whole lol.
Tough and beautiful
http://simonstudio.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/7.jpg

[Black Wolf]

^She is quite beautiful yes. Southern Italians have always just seemed tougher to me on the whole. No doubt there are many tough Jews as well though.

[Sikeliot]

Dude that is a sub culture within the US like guidos. The guys from Jersey Shore may look a bit metro or whatever but they are not pussies or homos that is for sure.

I mean real Sicilians. If I go to Facebook right now I will find a lot of metrosexual looking guys with plucked eyebrows.

and barberis12, that girl looks Asian.

[Black Wolf]

I mean real Sicilians. If I go to Facebook right now I will find a lot of metrosexual looking guys with plucked eyebrows.

and barberis12, that girl looks Asian.

It is a phase and style that many young people all over seem to be becoming part of now. Look back 20 years ago or so and you probably would not have seen very many Southern Italians like that.

[LightHouse89]

Southern Italians and Sicilians are basically the toughest people in the USA.

your racist. what about scotch irish people! we rebelled twice against tyrants. Even took on the entire north and their immigrant armies ; ]

[Sikeliot]

It is a phase and style that many young people all over seem to be becoming part of now. Look back 20 years ago or so and you probably would not have seen very many Southern Italians like that.

If you see old photos of southern Italians and Sicilians you see much more facial hair and way more unibrows.

I pluck the center of my eyebrows but not the rest.

[Black Wolf]

your racist. what about scotch irish people! we rebelled twice against tyrants. Even took on the entire north and their immigrant armies ; ]

That is not racist what she said.

[Black Wolf]

If you see old photos of southern Italians and Sicilians you see much more facial hair and way more unibrows.

I pluck the center of my eyebrows but not the rest.

There you go then. Either way I agree with alfieb that the majority are actually quite macho. That is the impression I have got usually anyways.

[YeshAtid]

I mean real Sicilians. If I go to Facebook right now I will find a lot of metrosexual looking guys with plucked eyebrows.

and barberis12, that girl looks Asian.

She's a Morrocan Jew, they sometimes have epicanthic folds

[alfieb]

Most of the ones I know are other gay men around my age, or family members.

So your demographics are skewed.

[Stormer99]

She's a Morrocan Jew, they sometimes have epicanthic folds

From the Berberid no doubt.

[YeshAtid]

From the Berberid no doubt.

Yes

[MarkyMark]

Why do they distinguish between Turks and Turkish? Is one of them supposed to represent Turkmenistan Turks?

[MfA_]

Why do they distinguish between Turks and Turkish? Is one of them supposed to represent Turkmenistan Turks?

Turks are samples from Behar et al.2010, while Turkish is Eurogenes participants..

[Tooting Carmen]

Any thoughts on this? http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?100253-Who-is-more-ethnically-representative-of-the-Lebanese-The-footballers-or-the-cabinet-ministers

[Prince Carlo]

It's a well known fact that Southern Italians are a bit more European version of Levantines, while Portuguese and Spaniards are a bit more Med version of Brits. No need for studies for this.

It's a well known fact that Bulgarians are are a bit more Slavic version of South Italians. No need for studies for this.

[d3cimat3d]

It's a well known fact that Bulgarians are are a bit more Slavic version of South Italians. No need for studies for this.

Really? Bulgarians look more than just a bit Slavic. They look like a cross between south Italians and Russians, or between Cypriots and Swedes, whichever way you want to look at it.

[Prince Carlo]

Really? Bulgarians look more than just a bit Slavic. They look like a cross between south Italians and Russians, or between Cypriots and Swedes, whichever way you want to look at it.

Bulgarians I've met IRL looked like South Italians with a touch of Baltid. Nothing like the Serbs or the Croats, who looked completely Central European to me (with few exceptions).

[d3cimat3d]

Bulgarians I've met IRL looked like South Italians with a touch of Baltid. Nothing like the Serbs or the Croats, who looked completely Central European to me (with few exceptions).

Well I was talking about how they look on PCA and BGA plots not in real life phenotypes, but sure I agree they are leaning more towards Med than to Baltid/Nordid. That also reflects in their autosomal DNA, they are the most Med of all the Slavs.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2jdewxl.jpg

[quaquaraqua]

lol if you find southern italians meteosexual... just try to go to any club and try to watch them in the eyes... you are just fucked ahahhah they start to argue and blablala and they aren't reall calm, and quiet.

[Harkonnen]

Bulgarians I've met IRL looked like South Italians with a touch of Baltid. Nothing like the Serbs or the Croats, who looked completely Central European to me (with few exceptions).

Really. Looking at that that PCA, Bulgarians don't look Slavic at all. It looks more like Central Europeans are a mix between something Slavic like and Bulgarians.

[Trun]

Really? Bulgarians look more than just a bit Slavic. They look like a cross between south Italians and Russians, or between Cypriots and Swedes, whichever way you want to look at it.

Bulgarians don't look like any of the people you mentioned, especially Swedes. Genetically we are far from all too. Closest to us are Romanians, Albanians, Serbs and North Greeks.


Bulgarians I've met IRL looked like South Italians with a touch of Baltid. Nothing like the Serbs or the Croats, who looked completely Central European to me (with few exceptions).

That's nonsense.

[d3cimat3d]

Bulgarians don't look like any of the people you mentioned, especially Swedes. Genetically we are from all too. Closest to us are Romanians, Albanians, Serbs and North Greeks.


I wasn't talking about looks (phenotype). I meant how they appear in this PCA plot.


Really. Looking at that that PCA, Bulgarians don't look Slavic at all. It looks more like Central Europeans are a mix between something Slavic like and Bulgarians.

The funny thing is Bulgarians are still closer to your precious Swedes than Finns are. :rotfl:

[Prince Carlo]

Well I was talking about how they look on PCA and BGA plots not in real life phenotypes, but sure I agree they are leaning more towards Med than to Baltid/Nordid. That also reflects in their autosomal DNA, they are the most Med of all the Slavs.

http://i44.tinypic.com/2jdewxl.jpg

Eurogenes? Ok.

Do you think that Natalja Montefusco (father from Naples and mother from Russia) looks typical Bulgarian to you?

https://www.facebook.com/natalja.montefusco/about
http://www.comunicazioneitaliana.it/component/jumi/utente-dettagli?option=com_jumi&uid=106737
http://ec.europa.eu/italia/chi_siamo/organigramma/index_it.htm

[Trun]

She can pass, but she isn't average. What's the point anyway?

[Harkonnen]

I wasn't talking about looks (phenotype). I meant how they appear in this PCA plot.



The funny thing is Bulgarians are still closer to your precious Swedes than Finns are. :rotfl:

Yeah why not. Especially to me since I'm like from the White Sea from where white people dwell, so I'd be like the furthest little blue spot on that map. Maybe Bulgarians are lost Germanics :)

I don't really get though what this 'your precious Swedes' refers to, like what you are trying to say with it-
From my experience it's usually the Swedes or other Germanics who like to claim that Finns are some sort of lost Germanics or have heavy Swedish admix, which of course is total nonsense.

According to the latest the Proto-Germanics were either Finns or some sort of chinky wogs ie maybe Turanoids?, so there's some tough decisions to be made there.

[Prince Carlo]

She can pass, but she isn't average. What's the point anyway?

Nothing that your Thacian brain can understand.

[Ianus]

I'd say it's probably due to early Phoenician settlement.

Wrong, Phenician had only three settlements in South Italy.

[Tooting Carmen]

Btw, I agree with Joseph Capelli that Bulgarians look much more Mediterranean-influenced than most other Slavic groups. Furthermore, surely there are more than enough Jews who can only look Jewish and nothing else, such as the examples I posted earlier.

[Trun]

Btw, I agree with Joseph Capelli that Bulgarians look much more Mediterranean-influenced than most other Slavic groups.

Than Poles and Russians yes, than Serbs and Croats not much.

[Prince Carlo]

Wrong, Phoenicians had only 2 settlements in Sicily.

Fixed.

[Kastrioti1443]

There is no way that serbs look more central european than bulgarians... maybe only the serbs from Vojvodina.

[Peyrol]

An interesting discussion (first pages) turned into ''guidos from Nj are gay metrosexuals'' and ''balkans''.
Cool.

[Lábaru]

I just lost a 10% of vision reading the names of the Spanish regions, superimposed over each other :(

[Lábaru]

An interesting discussion (first pages) turned into ''guidos from Nj are gay metrosexuals'....

do not try to argue with an American the look or the culture of your people, they know it better than you using sources like google, forums and films.

[Loki]

Than Poles and Russians yes, than Serbs and Croats not much.

Nobody wants to be Mediterranean, I agree.

[Damião de Góis]

We aren't versions of anyone. I find that a bit insulting.

It's funny that an italian member thumbed this comment of mine down...

[alfieb]

Fixed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Phoenician_colonies_in_Sicily

And, there were many more in Sardinia as well.

[Lábaru]

Nogay? that ethnicity is that? xD

[alfieb]

Nogay? that ethnicity is that? xD

Nogay or Nogai, a Turco-Mongolic tribe in Russia, left over from the Golden Horde.

And they're devout Muslims, so the Nogay part is fitting.

[Lábaru]

Nobody wants to be Mediterranean, I agree.

Looks the Sardinians, they are the only Mediterraneans in this universe, the line of Cornish-->French-->Spanish---> North Italian are the Atlantic facade :D

[Lemon Kush]

Bulgarians I've met IRL looked like South Italians with a touch of Baltid. Nothing like the Serbs or the Croats, who looked completely Central European to me (with few exceptions).

Bulgarians look closer to Yugoslavs than South Italians

[Archduke]

Do they look more Southern Italian or Serbian/Croatian?

http://vodno-spasiavane.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/180100_1676423202174_1585317550_1557536_5816808_n. jpg

[Tooting Carmen]

Bulgarians look closer to Yugoslavs than South Italians

They're in between both, one could say.

[Loki]

No gay. Interesting. They need to change their homophobic name.

[Tooting Carmen]

Do they look more Southern Italian or Serbian/Croatian?

http://vodno-spasiavane.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/180100_1676423202174_1585317550_1557536_5816808_n. jpg

In between.

[Loki]

Do they look more Southern Italian or Serbian/Croatian?

http://vodno-spasiavane.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/180100_1676423202174_1585317550_1557536_5816808_n. jpg

They just look gay to me.

[Lemon Kush]

They're in between both, one could say.

Closer to the former I still say. How much more near eastern admixture do south Italians have in comparison to Bulgarians?

[alfieb]

No gay. Interesting. They need to change their homophobic name.

Their flag is kinda gay, too.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/Nogai_flag.svg/768px-Nogai_flag.svg.png

A blue-eyed dog with wings and a faggy tail? Really?

[Tooting Carmen]

I'm going to post some Jewish politicians from Britain, in addition to the ones I've already posted, to see whether other users think they could easily pass as native Italians or not.

Grant Shapps
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/19/Grant_Shapps_Official.jpg

Lynne Featherstone
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8e/Lynne_Featherstone_-_under_secretary_for_equalities_and_criminal_infor mation.jpg

Michael Ellis
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Michaelellis.jpeg

Robert Halfon
http://turc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/robert_halfon1.jpg

Michael Howard
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Michael_Howard_1099_cropped.jpg

Luciana Berger
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Luciana_Berger_by_Emma_Baum.jpg

John Bercow
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/John_Bercow.JPG

[Archduke]

They need to change their homophobic name.

What?

[alfieb]

Schapps/Featherstone/Halfon no

Others, yes.

[Tooting Carmen]

Schapps/Featherstone/Halfon no

Others, yes.

Reasons?

[Lábaru]

They just look gay to me.

Gay
http://vodno-spasiavane.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/180100_1676423202174_1585317550_1557536_5816808_n. jpg

Nogay
http://estaticos.marca.com/imagenes/2011/06/18/mas_deportes/rugby/1308423860_extras_mosaico_noticia_1_g_0.jpg

[alfieb]

Shapps/Halfon look too Borreby
Featherstone looks Atlantid, like a Portugrease

[Tooting Carmen]

Shapps/Halfon look too Borreby
Featherstone looks Atlantid, like a Portugrease

Yeah, Grant Shapps I wouldn't have guessed as Jewish at all. In fact, in both colouring and facial traits, he looks more Anglo-Saxon than a lot of the native White British MPs!;)

[Loki]

What?

No-gay :P

[Tooting Carmen]

I'd like people's thoughts on these Sicilians. They seem pretty extreme-looking. http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?100223-Classify-these-Sicilian-councillors-and-where-can-they-pass

[Trun]

Do they look more Southern Italian or Serbian/Croatian?

http://vodno-spasiavane.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/180100_1676423202174_1585317550_1557536_5816808_n. jpg

Hawt.


Nobody wants to be Mediterranean, I agree.

That's not true.

[Sikeliot]

This one passes best as Sicilian of the Jews above:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Luciana_Berger_by_Emma_Baum.jpg

[alfieb]

This one passes best as Sicilian of the Jews above:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Luciana_Berger_by_Emma_Baum.jpg

Can't argue with that. My girlfriend looks a lot like her, albeit with a pointy nose.

[Sikeliot]

Can't argue with that. My girlfriend looks a lot like her, albeit with a pointy nose.

Where is your girlfriend's family from? You should have her test on 23andme :lol:

[LightHouse89]

That is not racist what she said.

Im just kidding. I like calling people racist. I generally do not think Italians look Jewish.

[Sikeliot]

I generally do not think Italians look Jewish.

Then what do Jews, and Italians respectively look like to you?

[Tooting Carmen]

Then what do Jews, and Italians respectively look like to you?

The former rather more Middle Eastern-influenced than the latter???

[Sikeliot]

The former rather more Middle Eastern-influenced than the latter???

I don't think they are. The average Jewish person I see is not Arabid or whatever you said.

[Tooting Carmen]

I don't think they are. The average Jewish person I see is not Arabid or whatever you said.

Not as such, but the Jews I posted like the Milibands couldn't really pass as Italians, for example.

[Sikeliot]

Not as such, but the Jews I posted like the Milibands couldn't really pass as Italians, for example.

One of them could but not the other, and it was because of his overall look, not that he looked Near Eastern.

[LightHouse89]

Then what do Jews, and Italians respectively look like to you?

Jews look like Jews and Italians look like Italians. 39602 39603

[quaquaraqua]

It's funny that an italian member thumbed this comment of mine down...
fixed ofc Xd

[Duke]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8jZz_QawBg

[alfieb]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8jZz_QawBg

True story.

[YeshAtid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8jZz_QawBg

:cool:

[Rudel]

Nogay
http://estaticos.marca.com/imagenes/2011/06/18/mas_deportes/rugby/1308423860_extras_mosaico_noticia_1_g_0.jpg

Nogay ?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Nogay_Tartars._Edmund_Spencer._Travels_in_Circassi a%2C_Krim-Tartary_%26c._1838._Letter_XIII._P.139.jpg

[Gaijin]

It's been well long established that Southern-Italians are very close related to the oriental Jews.
All genetic plots indicate for such deduction.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8080/8325654300_7d1a494875_o.png

Southern Italians not only mirror the Jews in Genetics and/or Morphology, but in Mentality as well.
I'm not here to talk about their noses, of course. But one can see that both of these people are often very fond to control Monopolies.

I noticed Jews are often more respectable, clean and well organized, than their counterparts.

The Jews own the Banks and the Media. The Southern-Italians own the Dumpsters and Prostitution business.

[arcticwolf]

hold on a minute y'all.

I thought Ashkhenazis (not sure if I spelled the name right, feel free to correct the spelling) come for the large part from Eastern Europe, like Russia, Ukraine, Poland etc. How exactly they managed to be best aligned genetically with Sicilians?

I thought Russians, Poles, Ukrainians etc though very colse genetically to each other, are very distant genettically to Sicilians.

Some brainiacs please explain this to me, I get a brain freeze trying to figure this one out! :P

[Also]

hold on a minute y'all.

I thought Ashkhenazis (not sure if I spelled the name right, feel free to correct the spelling) come for the large part from Eastern Europe, like Russia, Ukraine, Poland etc. How exactly they managed to be best aligned genetically with Sicilians?

I thought Russians, Poles, Ukrainians etc though very colse genetically to each other, are very distant genettically to Sicilians.

Some brainiacs please explain this to me, I get a brain freeze trying to figure this one out! :P

If you mix a turkish and an irish you will have someone plotting with central europeans on PCA plots, Ashkenazis are old levantine stock + east or northern europeans, and end up plotting with sicilians.

[MelinusMargos]

It's not very shocking. Jews are likely half North Italian, half ancient Israelite, so they cluster in south Italy.

NO.

[MelinusMargos]

If you mix a turkish and an irish you will have someone plotting with central europeans on PCA plots, Ashkenazis are old levantine stock + east or northern europeans, and end up plotting with sicilians.

they're also part southern italians, that's why they score close.

[arcticwolf]

If you mix a turkish and an irish you will have someone plotting with central europeans on PCA plots, Ashkenazis are old levantine stock + east or northern europeans, and end up plotting with sicilians.


heard that beforè, but if they cluster with Italians which are R1b not R1a, and assuming Ashkenazis mixed with Eastern Euros for centuries shouldn't they have significant amounts of R1a? Not sure if they have or not, just curious. It should be discernible, right?

So, is that the case, or am I off the reservation on this one?

[WOOHP]

If you mix a turkish and an irish you will have someone plotting with central europeans on PCA plots, Ashkenazis are old levantine stock + east or northern europeans, and end up plotting with sicilians.

If you mix an Irish with a Turk the outcome would most likely not plot anywhere near Austrians/Germans who already are way, way closer to Brits/Irish.

Ashkenazis are mix of Levantines and East-Central Europeans. Some Jews though, those from Poland look more swarthy than those from Lithuania, Latvia, Belarus, or Russia.

[Also]

If you mix an Irish with a Turk the outcome would most likely not plot anywhere near Austrians/Germans who already are way, way closer to Brits/Irish.


I think a half Irish half Turkish person would be closer to Austrians than Austrians are to Irish or British, probably somewhere between Austrians and Bulgarians. Turks aren't far from europeans (http://blog.23andme.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/novembreblogpostfig.jpg).

[Prince Carlo]

Apparently Mr 3-4% SSA admixture bumped this discussion for trolling. Dude don't make me post some your athletes, because you won't like it. Hahaha.

[Prince Carlo]

OPS! Too late.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?104195-Classify-some-Portuguese-athletes

[Damião de Góis]

OPS! Too late.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?104195-Classify-some-Portuguese-athletes

I'm afraid Damas wouldn't cluster with jews:

http://www.abola.pt/img/fotos/portuguesesASF/damas1.jpg

He also wouldn't change the fact that southern italians cluster with jews, so i don't see how posting him will change anything.

[Smeagol]

NO.

Alright then, explain what's wrong with the statement?

[Prince Carlo]

I'm afraid Damas wouldn't cluster with jews:

http://www.abola.pt/img/fotos/portuguesesASF/damas1.jpg

He also wouldn't change the fact that southern italians cluster with jews, so i don't see how posting him will change anything.

That non cherrypicked set of photos is uber representative of your average SSA admixed Portuguese. Like it or not.

[Trun]

If you mix a turkish and an irish you will have someone plotting with central europeans on PCA plots, Ashkenazis are old levantine stock + east or northern europeans, and end up plotting with sicilians.

If you mix Irish and Turkish you'll have someone plotting with Bulgarians (and even further southeast), not Central Europeans.

[Damião de Góis]

That non cherrypicked set of photos is uber representative of your average SSA admixed Portuguese. Like it or not.

No, it's an incorrect list. Apart from the 3 i mentioned on the other thread, the list is completely random. I could make another list of "the best goalkeepers".

Apart from that, south italians do cluster with jews. Like it or not.
In any case, i'm still waiting for your results and your picture... but i bet you will be another Zara.

[Prince Carlo]

No, it's an incorrect list. Apart from the 3 i mentioned on the other thread, the list is completely random. I could make another list of "the best goalkeepers".

66 people have voted in that list, dude. I find hard to believe that you know soccer better than all of them.

[Damião de Góis]

66 people have voted in that list, dude. I find hard to believe that you know soccer better than all of them.

Beto and Ricardo in a list of the best goalkeepers ever? Yes, you can bet on that.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

There is always Melonhead's idiotic belief that Jewish slaves were brought to southern Italy in mass after the fall of Jerusalem and that's why S. Italians and Jews appear closer. What makes that belief idiotic is the differing haplogroup sub-clades between the two populations.

Based on memory both Ashkenazi and Sephardi Jews appear to be a mostly Med + Levant population. The difference between the Ashkenazi and Sephardi seems to be the difference between which Med populations influenced the two groups. Free Jewish diaspora niggas be banging hawt med biotches. A population of merchants/artisans in foreign lands taking in Gentile wives and having concubines (as was the style of the time) and then mostly closing in on themselves when Christianity with its dislike of Judaism and its poor view of Christians converting to Judaism came to power is not only an awkwardly written run on sentence but the most likely reality.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

If you mix an Irish with a Turk the outcome would most likely not plot anywhere near Austrians/Germans who already are way, way closer to Brits/Irish.

Ashkenazis are mix of Levantines and East-Central Europeans. Some Jews though, those from Poland look more swarthy than those from Lithuania, Latvia, Belarus, or Russia.

Are they... Are they really? It appears, and I base this on memory but I do have an excellent memory, the Eastern/Central Europe mixture in Ashkenazi Jews is minimal. The population had for the most part already closed in on themselves by the time Jews began to flow north.

Are we back to perception is reality? Studies, niggas, over the subjective, people. I want to be able to take my Apricity degree out into the real world without potential employers mocking the low quality of Apricity intellectualism when it comes to population genetics.

I'd like to add I recall recently heard talk that studies on Jewish populations have been.. um.. tainted by political reasons and this isn't from the typical whacky internet folk but serious academia; it was a study posted at ABf right before it went down. Can someone shed more light? It was about the Khazars having much more of an influence than previously believed.