Plz. classify Mesolithic/Neolithic Dutchman

[The Black Prince]

This man was part of the Swifterbant culture (5300 - 3400 BCE), the finds of this culture are hard to separate from the contemporary North-German Ellerbeck culture and the Danish Ertebølle culture. All three are therefore sometimes grouped together and seen as the predecessor of the western TRB culture. The three cultures are interesting because while they start as Mesolithic and halfway adapt to the domestication of animals and plants (Neolithization), they keep showing strong continuity.

http://i34.tinypic.com/1zyvsko.jpg http://i37.tinypic.com/15sa16o.jpg

[Alano]

cromagnon, i guess iam right:D

[Allenson]

Terrific reconstruction!

Yes, Cro-Magish/Northwest type (Doggerlander??)--particularly considering the low orbital height, moderate nasion depression, a degree of facial flattening, moderately long, straight nasal bridge.

His zygomatic arches are a bit more "Old European" and archaic than is often found today--but still, he has a familiar look to me.

Great pigmentation (skin, hair & eyes) and facial lines/creases too!


Where did you find these BP?

[Loki]

Russo-Latvian mix

[The Lawspeaker]

Russo-Latvian mix
If some elderly Dutchman would let their hair and beard grow then some would look very much like this chap.
As a matter of fact I know someone who looks just like him but I don't have a picture.

[Allenson]

Russo-Latvian mix

In the Mesolithic? :icon1:

[Agrippa]

Definitely Cromagnid ("Proto-Dalofaelid"), a classic example even. Did they test his genetic background? Would be quite interesting because of the discontinuity theories and the fact that some regions and resulting populations might have had a significant genetic change since the Neolithic times and this individual could be someone before the Indoeuropean arrival.

[Allenson]

Definitely Cromagnid ("Proto-Dalofaelid"), a classic example even. Did they test his genetic background? Would be quite interesting because of the discontinuity theories and the fact that some regions and resulting populations might have had a significant genetic change since the Neolithic times and this individual could be someone before the Indoeuropean arrival.

Yes, the pendulum certainly has swung lately, hasn't it?

I'm not firmly in either camp at the moment--I think there is much more to come to light before we say with any definition.

I do wonder, if R1b for example, is so recent in Europe, how was it able to saturate the west of the continent as it did in so short of a time span?

Then again, it staurated much of North America in only a few hundred years...... But, there is archeological evidence of this certainly where this isn't so black and white back in Europe....

[Agrippa]

Yes, the pendulum certainly has swung lately, hasn't it?

I'm not firmly in either camp at the moment--I think there is much more to come to light before we say with any definition.

I do wonder, if R1b for example, is so recent in Europe, how was it able to saturate the west of the continent as it did in so short of a time span?

Then again, it staurated much of North America in only a few hundred years...... But, there is archeological evidence of this certainly where this isn't so black and white back in Europe....

Newer results just showed us how uncertain many theories which seemed to have been covered by solid genetic results really are. I totally agree with you that things aren't ready yet and we need much more complete data and results before the last word can be spoken.

However, the tests of ancient DNA are one of the best ways to get a grip on this issue, because if the prehistoric specimen had DNA we dont or just rarely find in moderns, this is definitely a hard blow for any continuity hypothesis, without single results being sufficient for big theories of course - rather hints until the picture is made clear by comprehensive comparative studies.

I had always doubts about the "big continuity" thesis and dont believe in a large substitution neither. My personal opinion is that we will find the truth rather in the middle between the two rather illogic extremes.

[Allenson]

Newer results just showed us how uncertain many theories which seemed to have been covered by solid genetic results really are. I totally agree with you that things aren't ready yet and we need much more complete data and results before the last word can be spoken.

However, the tests of ancient DNA are one of the best ways to get a grip on this issue, because if the prehistoric specimen had DNA we dont or just rarely find in moderns, this is definitely a hard blow for any continuity hypothesis, without single results being sufficient for big theories of course - rather hints until the picture is made clear by comprehensive comparative studies.

I had always doubts about the "big continuity" thesis and dont believe in a large substitution neither. My personal opinion is that we will find the truth rather in the middle between the two rather illogic extremes.


I agree, Agrippa--the truth likely lies somewhere between complete continuity and complete replacement.

From what I understand, ancient mtDNA is much easier to retrieve than is the Y-chromosome.

[The Black Prince]

Did they test his genetic background? Would be quite interesting because of the discontinuity theories and the fact that some regions and resulting populations might have had a significant genetic change since the Neolithic times and this individual could be someone before the Indoeuropean arrival.
The Neolithization of the Netherlands is a rather peculiar process, like in Germany the southern part had an early start of the Neolithic (here around 5400/5300 BC) by the LBK. The peculiarity is that the Swifterbant culture being only 100km more north, entered the Neolithic more as 600yrs later (pigs and cows) and the first sign of fields are from around 4300 BCE (though might also be 4000BC), all at a time when the LBK had already vanished (made place for new cultures e.g Michelsberg, but they used less of the area the LBK used).
The only sign of some sort of communication between the Neolithic southerners and the still Mesolithic northerners are the spread of breitkeile. So earlier theories of replacement by Neolithic farmers have some less grounding here. It seems unlogical that Neolithic people from the south would take over and than return to living as hunter/gatherer.
Same accounts btw for the Ellerbeck and Ertebolle culture, being seen nowadays as only little later as the Swifterbant switching to a more Neolithic lifestyle, but doing so on their own initiative and not by southern mass-migration.

Most likely they have extracted DNA from the remains of this man, but until now I didn't hear anything about results. The oldest find from the Netherlands of whom succesfully Y-DNA was extracted is the 'krabbeplas man' dating from 1300 BCE. Extracting Nuclear DNA is not that hard, but the chains are often broken or not intact and subtracting good Y-DNA from it is very hard.
MtDNA being apart from the Nuclear DNA is smaller and contains more 'copies' making it easier to reconstruct a good MtDNA string. But as you know the information from MtDNA is not very helpfull in determining migration patterns, especially in of those days in which males often took wives of the weaker population.

Where did you find these BP?
On a Dutch physical anthropologist working in the commercial sector making facial reconstructions. Her work is quite well done.

Here is Krabbeplas Man (1300 BCE) found near the town of Vlaardingen, of him succesfully Y-DNA was extracted:

http://www.geschiedenisvanzuidholland.nl/ImageServer.aspx?686=groot
http://i35.tinypic.com/2zdwx86.jpg http://i36.tinypic.com/2mzf8mr.jpg

And here is another example of her from the Middle-Netherlands at 5000 BCE when they were still Mesolithic:

http://www.verreverwanten.nl/blobs/trijntje.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/155mc93.jpg http://i37.tinypic.com/2h5lheg.png
Oldest find of the Netherlands, woman named Tryntje of 5000 BCE.

[Barreldriver]

^What was the YDNA for the Krabbeplas Man?

[007]

How did they find out the woman's name?

[The Lawspeaker]

How did they find out the woman's name?
They didn't. They just named gave her a name as was a custom in those days. :)

[Agrippa]

Add to the whole puzzle that mtDNA and probably even y-DNA might not be selectively neutral, so we deal with different reproductive rates and direct selective pressures on them probably.

From social history I know that being a farmer was nothing desirable for hunter gatherers and some actually went back from farmers to hunter gatherers. The reason is that the life of a hunter gatherer suites the human nature much better and gives the group even more ressources than early farmer cultures do, which were still quite ineffective, yet labour intensive. The main reason for the shift seems to have been a growing population and dwindling ressources. Actually most early Neolithics in Europe had still a significant part of their diet coming from hunting and gathering and those with the higher proportions of this sources of food and material were mostly also the healthier one.

So there was a fluent border between higher (cultured) hunters and farmers, with many making an almost or really direct leap to becoming herder-warriors or mixed farmers with a very strong stock breeding proportion for their daily work and in their diet. The hunter gatherers were much healthier most of the time and better nourished than the early farmers. LBK-populations were mostly in a horrible situation with many negative effects working on them. That was, by the way, much more important for their often smaller size than a strong gracile Mediterranid influence. It needed quite some time until at least the stock breeders reached a level as high or higher than that of the better off hunter gatherers in Europe. Just to fall down again in the civilisation with its dependent farmer societies with a much too low proportion of animal breeding.

Indoeuropeans are too a large degree recognisable as cattle breeders with horses. In the North their was no longer farming tradition and stock breeding was for quite some time more important. Interestingly this relates to the Lactose Tolerance and light pigmentation the best, I mean this diet of mixed farmers in a UV-low environment.

Which is the reason why I would think its interesting to test the ancient remains for their pigmentation too and wheter coloration is in many reconstructions speculative or based on hard facts?

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that especially in the North with its relatively low population density and long higher hunter and gatherer cultures I wouldnt expect such a clear shift for various reasons, some explained above. Yet this means still a lot of speculation for the continuity. Actually some remains of either group could be incorporated by - either group when the tide changed and in some regions it did so more than once...

Additionally, something I forgot before, namely that discontinuity for region X, especially parts of the periphery like Northern Europe, doesnt mean that Neolithics marched en masse through Europe from the South-East to the North-West, it could also mean that secondary and third centres, like in a snowball system, brought the mass of new arrivers. F.e. Scandinavia had most a large influx from Central Europe at different times from the first modern humans to modern days.


Here is Krabbeplas Man (1300 BCE) found near the town of Vlaardingen, of him succesfully Y-DNA was extracted:

His reconstruction looks the most Nordoid of the three shown interestingly. Somewhat reminds me on "Captain Jean Luc Picard" (Patrick Stewart) though (who is a Dinariomorphic Nordoid ("Keltic") - Cromagnid mix in my opinion and if looking at this family and background).

[Allenson]

^What was the YDNA for the Krabbeplas Man?

Looks like it hasn't been published yet--but I'll be keeping my eye out for this paper.

http://www.vlaardingen.nl/smartsite.html?id=76477

[Erik]

Where and when had been found this Dutchman? I suppose that it is a joke, a Dutchman
who dressed his self as a man from the Mesolithicum. Please who can give me more
information?

[Erik]

And see, he has blue eyes and dark hair!

[Jarl]

Where and when had been found this Dutchman? I suppose that it is a joke, a Dutchman
who dressed his self as a man from the Mesolithicum. Please who can give me more
information?

;) I think you should ask The Black Prince or Asega... What do you mean by "dressed himself as a man from the Mesolithicum"??? :D

[The Lawspeaker]

Where and when had been found this Dutchman? I suppose that it is a joke, a Dutchman
who dressed his self as a man from the Mesolithicum. Please who can give me more
information?
Well Eric. It's actually pretty simple. Archeologists or in some cases just a farmer found a body. Archeologists from the local university (or the police) were send in and started the puzzle to date and reconstruct him.

So what they did then was a face reconstruction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forensic_facial_reconstruction)- piece by piece they reconstructed the face by using clay and other techniques and later on computer models. This for instance is Tollund Man (found in Denmark)- who was so well preserved that the people who found him called the police, convinced as they were that this was a recent murder victim.

http://www.arthurkemp.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/tollund-man-and-reconstruction01.jpg

So with modern technology someone's face can be reconstructed- then they simply added drawings from clothes as they would have looked in the Mesolithicum and you're done.

[Neanderthal]

Some sort of De-pigmented Nordoid/Paleo-Atlantid??

[Erik]

But who can give me information about the haplogroup of these ancient
Dutchmen? Are they R1b, Aurignac or Borreby? Had they brown hair with
blue eyes?

[SuuT]

:eek::eek::eek:

http://i37.tinypic.com/15sa16o.jpg

http://www.encycmet.com/news/torben_ulrich.jpg


http://i34.tinypic.com/1zyvsko.jpg

http://images.fyens.dk/41/426341_640_450.jpg


:thumb001:

[Pallantides]

http://www.encycmet.com/news/torben_ulrich.jpg
http://images.fyens.dk/41/426341_640_450.jpg


:thumb001:


Epic beard, he looks like some Karelian wizard.

[Guapo]

http://i34.tinypic.com/1zyvsko.jpg http://i37.tinypic.com/15sa16o.jpg

http://srpskiescobar.freeblog.hu/files/Cetnik_sa_kamom_u_ustima.jpg

He's still alive :eek:

[Erik]

But what is know about his hair and eyes colour? Did he had blue eyes?

[GeistFaust]

Cro Magnon probably more in the category of Faelid + Nordic.

[Frederick]

But what is know about his hair and eyes colour? Did he had blue eyes?

Most likely, its the "typical" reconstruction:

All that is existant is the skull bone.

The reconstructor must now GUESS the race, age and gender, from the skullbone.
Then he looks up a list, what the average thickness of flesh/fat/skin at that part of the skull is, for the race/age/gener he guessed.

Then the material is build around the skull. pigmentation, hair and a lot other things are up to the fantasy of the artist.

The artists most likely tried to enforce the reconstruction to resemble modern Dutchmen.

I dont trust those reconstructions at all. ;)

If you give copies of the skull to 5 experts, you get 5 completely different human faces back.

I recently saw a TV Documentation where a face reconstruction was totaly fucked up, because the anthrophology "experts" said, "Amerindian girl" but it was the skull of a white boy.

Well, however, after it was clear that it was a white boy and not an amerindian girl, the reconstruction looked totaly different (still same skull as base!) and it somewhat resembled the missed boy. Later DNA tests said, yes, its this missed boy.

EDIT:
This here is an example what you get from different experts:
2600 years old skull, found in Lower Saxony, Germany:

Anthrophology, University Freiburg:
http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/01297/cl_moora5_DW_Wisse_1297421p.jpg

Forensic, Police, East GErmany
http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/01297/cl_moora6_DW_Wisse_1297424p.jpg

Anthropology, University Dundee (Scottland)
http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/01297/cl_moora7_DW_Wisse_1297437p.jpg

Forensic, Police, NOrthern Germany:
http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/01297/cl_moora8_DW_Wisse_1297450p.jpg

And another one:
http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/01297/cl_moora9_DW_Wisse_1297451p.jpg

[Smeagol]

Cromagnid.

[Kalibak]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=105531&d=1611243243

[aherne]

Prior to ENF invasion every single individual in Europe looked like a variation of CM (Aryans' ancestors included). This is our only aboriginal type: myself I have some influence (Faelid and Baltid) but as in most other modern Europeans the newer elements prevail (Corded, Alpine, Dinaric)

[Norb]

Prior to ENF invasion every single individual in Europe looked like a variation of CM (Aryans' ancestors included). This is our only aboriginal type: myself I have some influence (Faelid and Baltid) but as in most other modern Europeans the newer elements prevail (Corded, Alpine, Dinaric)

Corded = Proto Germanic invaders