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Loki
11-07-2013, 01:26 PM
Saudi nuclear weapons 'on order' from Pakistan (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24823846)

Saudi Arabia has invested in Pakistani nuclear weapons projects, and believes it could obtain atomic bombs at will, a variety of sources have told BBC Newsnight.

While the kingdom's quest has often been set in the context of countering Iran's atomic programme, it is now possible that the Saudis might be able to deploy such devices more quickly than the Islamic republic.

Earlier this year, a senior Nato decision maker told me that he had seen intelligence reporting that nuclear weapons made in Pakistan on behalf of Saudi Arabia are now sitting ready for delivery.

Last month Amos Yadlin, a former head of Israeli military intelligence, told a conference in Sweden that if Iran got the bomb, "the Saudis will not wait one month. They already paid for the bomb, they will go to Pakistan and bring what they need to bring."

Since 2009, when King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia warned visiting US special envoy to the Middle East Dennis Ross that if Iran crossed the threshold, "we will get nuclear weapons", the kingdom has sent the Americans numerous signals of its intentions.

Gary Samore, until March 2013 President Barack Obama's counter-proliferation adviser, has told Newsnight:

"I do think that the Saudis believe that they have some understanding with Pakistan that, in extremis, they would have claim to acquire nuclear weapons from Pakistan."

The story of Saudi Arabia's project - including the acquisition of missiles capable of delivering nuclear warheads over long ranges - goes back decades.

In the late 1980s they secretly bought dozens of CSS-2 ballistic missiles from China.

These rockets, considered by many experts too inaccurate for use as conventional weapons, were deployed 20 years ago.

This summer experts at defence publishers Jane's reported the completion of a new Saudi CSS-2 base with missile launch rails aligned with Israel and Iran.

It has also been clear for many years that Saudi Arabia has given generous financial assistance to Pakistan's defence sector, including, western experts allege, to its missile and nuclear labs.

Visits by the then Saudi defence minister Prince Sultan bin Abdulaziz al Saud to the Pakistani nuclear research centre in 1999 and 2002 underlined the closeness of the defence relationship.

In its quest for a strategic deterrent against India, Pakistan co-operated closely with China which sold them missiles and provided the design for a nuclear warhead.

The Pakistani scientist Abdul Qadeer Khan was accused by western intelligence agencies of selling atomic know-how and uranium enrichment centrifuges to Libya and North Korea.

AQ Khan is also believed to have passed the Chinese nuclear weapon design to those countries. This blueprint was for a device engineered to fit on the CSS-2 missile, i.e the same type sold to Saudi Arabia.

Because of this circumstantial evidence, allegations of a Saudi-Pakistani nuclear deal started to circulate even in the 1990s, but were denied by Saudi officials.

They noted that their country had signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty, and called for a nuclear-free Middle East, pointing to Israel's possession of such weapons.

The fact that handing over atom bombs to a foreign government could create huge political difficulties for Pakistan, not least with the World Bank and other donors, added to scepticism about those early claims.

In Eating the Grass, his semi-official history of the Pakistani nuclear program, Major General Feroz Hassan Khan wrote that Prince Sultan's visits to Pakistan's atomic labs were not proof of an agreement between the two countries. But he acknowledged, "Saudi Arabia provided generous financial support to Pakistan that enabled the nuclear program to continue."

Whatever understandings did or did not exist between the two countries in the 1990s, it was around 2003 that the kingdom started serious strategic thinking about its changing security environment and the prospect of nuclear proliferation.

A paper leaked that year by senior Saudi officials mapped out three possible responses - to acquire their own nuclear weapons, to enter into an arrangement with another nuclear power to protect the kingdom, or to rely on the establishment of a nuclear-free zone in the Middle East.

It was around the same time, following the US invasion of Iraq, that serious strains in the US/Saudi relationship began to show themselves, says Gary Samore.

The Saudis resented the removal of Saddam Hussein, had long been unhappy about US policy on Israel, and were growing increasingly concerned about the Iranian nuclear program.

In the years that followed, diplomatic chatter about Saudi-Pakistani nuclear cooperation began to increase.

In 2007, the US mission in Riyadh noted they were being asked questions by Pakistani diplomats about US knowledge of "Saudi-Pakistani nuclear cooperation".

The unnamed Pakistanis opined that "it is logical for the Saudis to step in as the physical 'protector'" of the Arab world by seeking nuclear weapons, according to one of the State Department cables posted by Wikileaks.

By the end of that decade Saudi princes and officials were giving explicit warnings of their intention to acquire nuclear weapons if Iran did.

Having warned the Americans in private for years, last year Saudi officials in Riyadh escalated it to a public warning, telling a journalist from the Times "it would be completely unacceptable to have Iran with a nuclear capability and not the kingdom".

But were these statements bluster, aimed at forcing a stronger US line on Iran, or were they evidence of a deliberate, long-term plan for a Saudi bomb? Both, is the answer I have received from former key officials.

One senior Pakistani, speaking on background terms, confirmed the broad nature of the deal - probably unwritten - his country had reached with the kingdom and asked rhetorically "what did we think the Saudis were giving us all that money for? It wasn't charity."

Another, a one-time intelligence officer from the same country, said he believed "the Pakistanis certainly maintain a certain number of warheads on the basis that if the Saudis were to ask for them at any given time they would immediately be transferred."

As for the seriousness of the Saudi threat to make good on the deal, Simon Henderson, Director of the Global Gulf and Energy Policy Program at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, told BBC Newsnight "the Saudis speak about Iran and nuclear matters very seriously. They don't bluff on this issue."

Talking to many serving and former officials about this over the past few months, the only real debate I have found is about how exactly the Saudi Arabians would redeem the bargain with Pakistan.

Some think it is a cash-and-carry deal for warheads, the first of those options sketched out by the Saudis back in 2003; others that it is the second, an arrangement under which Pakistani nuclear forces could be deployed in the kingdom.

Gary Samore, considering these questions at the centre of the US intelligence and policy web, at the White House until earlier this year, thinks that what he calls, "the Nato model", is more likely.

However ,"I think just giving Saudi Arabia a handful of nuclear weapons would be a very provocative action", says Gary Samore.

He adds: "I've always thought it was much more likely - the most likely option if Pakistan were to honour any agreement would be for be for Pakistan to send its own forces, its own troops armed with nuclear weapons and with delivery systems to be deployed in Saudi Arabia".

This would give a big political advantage to Pakistan since it would allow them to deny that they had simply handed over the weapons, but implies a dual key system in which they would need to agree in order for 'Saudi Arabian' "nukes" to be launched.

Others I have spoken to think this is not credible, since Saudi Arabia, which regards itself as the leader of the broader Sunni Islamic 'ummah' or community, would want complete control of its nuclear deterrent, particularly at this time of worsening sectarian confrontation with Shia Iran.

And it is Israeli information - that Saudi Arabia is now ready to take delivery of finished warheads for its long-range missiles - that informs some recent US and Nato intelligence reporting. Israel of course shares Saudi Arabia's motive in wanting to worry the US into containing Iran.

Amos Yadlin declined to be interviewed for our BBC Newsnight report, but told me by email that "unlike other potential regional threats, the Saudi one is very credible and imminent."

Even if this view is accurate there are many good reasons for Saudi Arabia to leave its nuclear warheads in Pakistan for the time being.

Doing so allows the kingdom to deny there are any on its soil. It avoids challenging Iran to cross the nuclear threshold in response, and it insulates Pakistan from the international opprobrium of being seen to operate an atomic cash-and-carry.

These assumptions though may not be safe for much longer. The US diplomatic thaw with Iran has touched deep insecurities in Riyadh, which fears that any deal to constrain the Islamic republic's nuclear program would be ineffective.

Earlier this month the Saudi intelligence chief and former ambassador to Washington Prince Bandar announced that the kingdom would be distancing itself more from the US.

While investigating this, I have heard rumours on the diplomatic grapevine, that Pakistan has recently actually delivered Shaheen mobile ballistic missiles to Saudi Arabia, minus warheads.

These reports, still unconfirmed, would suggest an ability to deploy nuclear weapons in the kingdom, and mount them on an effective, modern, missile system more quickly than some analysts had previously imagined.

In Egypt, Saudi Arabia showed itself ready to step in with large-scale backing following the military overthrow of President Mohammed Morsi's government.

There is a message here for Pakistan, of Riyadh being ready to replace US military assistance or World Bank loans, if standing with Saudi Arabia causes a country to lose them.

Newsnight contacted both the Pakistani and Saudi governments. The Pakistan Foreign Ministry has described our story as "speculative, mischievous and baseless".

It adds: "Pakistan is a responsible nuclear weapon state with robust command and control structures and comprehensive export controls."

The Saudi embassy in London has also issued a statement pointing out that the Kingdom is a signatory to the Non-Proliferation Treaty and has worked for a nuclear free Middle East.

But it also points out that the UN's "failure to make the Middle East a nuclear free zone is one of the reasons the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia rejected the offer of a seat on the UN Security Council".

It says the Saudi Foreign Minister has stressed that this lack of international action "has put the region under the threat of a time bomb that cannot easily be defused by manoeuvring around it".

Loki
11-07-2013, 01:27 PM
Okay, this officially makes Saudi Arabia more dangerous than Iran.

curupira
11-07-2013, 02:34 PM
[B][SIZE=5][URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-24823846"]
"I do think that the Saudis believe that they have some understanding with Pakistan that, in extremis, they would have claim to acquire nuclear weapons from Pakistan." .

Very likely!

SilverKnight
11-07-2013, 02:35 PM
Smells like Saudi scare tactics.

Genn
11-08-2013, 12:33 AM
Okay, this officially makes Saudi Arabia more dangerous than Iran.

That was already the case; this recent revelation only reinforces it.

Arcadefire
11-08-2013, 12:35 AM
I really hope the Pakistani people can move on from the whole "Muslim brotherhood" bull crap and see that the Arabs just treat them like slaves. Come on my Paki brothers, give them the finger! You can still be a muslim while telling the middle east to fuck off. Just ask Turkey!

Jackson
11-08-2013, 12:39 AM
Worrying.

Sky earth
11-08-2013, 12:58 AM
I really hope the Pakistani people can move on from the whole "Muslim brotherhood" bull crap and see that the Arabs just treat them like slaves. Come on my Paki brothers, give them the finger! You can still be a muslim while telling the middle east to fuck off. Just ask Turkey!

The state "Pakistan" and the "Pakistanis" are actually nothing than a product of several Muslim invaders who forced their culture on formely Hindu South Asian ethnic groups. Many Pakistanis consider Arabs as special and Allahs chosen people which is sad because many Pakistani workers are treated like shit by rich and racist gulf Arabs in UAE or Saudi Arabia

Arcadefire
11-08-2013, 01:37 AM
The state "Pakistan" and the "Pakistanis" are actually nothing than a product of several Muslim invaders who forced their culture on formely Hindu South Asian ethnic groups. Many Pakistanis consider Arabs as special and Allahs chosen people which is sad because many Pakistani workers are treated like shit by rich and racist gulf Arabs in UAE or Saudi Arabia

I dont knwo where to begin. Over the fact that you think Pakistani people are product of Arabization or the fact that you take pride in knowing that pakistani labor workers are treated like shit in the middle east?

In either case:
a. Pakistan was not created because of muslims forcing their culture on south asians you moron! lol Pakistan was created for political reasons. Separating the muslims from the rest of India after partion circa 1945 because at the time they felt that the Sikhs and Hindus would slaughter them. This was obviously not the case as there are MORE muslims in India than there are in Pakistan. While they are muslims, their culture is no different than people from north west India.

b. Lol "Many pakistanis consider Arabs as allahs chosen people" . This is news to me. But then, I am not a muslim so I cant really comment on it. Every thing in islam favours the Arabs and their culture. So in theory, you a TURK as well as your forefathers who had to convert or get killed, would be in the same boat as the Pakistani people. Do you look towards the mecca (Arabia) when you pray? So you also say your prayers in arabic?

Loki
11-08-2013, 01:59 AM
Why is this not top news?! At the very least, this is serious proliferation on Pakistan's side.

Loki
11-08-2013, 02:01 AM
I really hope the Pakistani people can move on from the whole "Muslim brotherhood" bull crap and see that the Arabs just treat them like slaves. Come on my Paki brothers, give them the finger! You can still be a muslim while telling the middle east to fuck off. Just ask Turkey!

Agreed.

YeshAtid
11-08-2013, 02:05 AM
I really hope the Pakistani people can move on from the whole "Muslim brotherhood" bull crap and see that the Arabs just treat them like slaves. Come on my Paki brothers, give them the finger! You can still be a muslim while telling the middle east to fuck off. Just ask Turkey!

Why do you think such a mentality exists ?

Arcadefire
11-08-2013, 02:06 AM
lol Loki I know you are just stirring the shit right now :P But any ways, I do think that the Paki's should just tell the middle east to fuck off. With all their internal issues, they have managed to obtain nuclear weapons on their own merit. Something which none of the current Arab rich countries (with all that American ass kissing) can boast of doing. I hope for the sake of south Asia the Pakis and Indians can patch thinigs up and look beyond the islam vs hindu issues. We have enough brains and population to elevate the development of our countries if we arnt busy trying to kill each other.

Anyways I am done talking about this issue before I get labled as being an anti-islamist.

Arcadefire
11-08-2013, 02:09 AM
Why do you think such a mentality exists ?

Well because Islam is pro Arab above all. Why are there more muslims outside of the middle east yet they ALL have to do things accordingly to the Arabic way of life?

Why is it that recent extremist-islamic terrorism been found to have started in Saudi, yet these fuckers only recruit the poorer muslims from around the world?

Loki
11-08-2013, 02:35 AM
lol Loki I know you are just stirring the shit right now :P

No I am not, this is of real concern to me.

Loki
11-08-2013, 02:37 AM
If Saudi Arabia gets nuclear weapons it would be a good time to nuke Mecca.

Shah-Jehan
11-08-2013, 02:39 AM
If Saudi Arabia gets nuclear weapons it would be a good time to nuke Mecca.
it's capital is in Riyadh, Mecca is only a special city to Muslims, comments like that are too funny!:lol:...

curupira
11-08-2013, 02:41 AM
If Saudi Arabia gets nuclear weapons it would be a good time to nuke Mecca.

Nah... that's cultural patrimony of the humanity. And over a billion people believe it to be sacred.

Prisoner Of Ice
11-08-2013, 02:42 AM
Why is this not top news?! At the very least, this is serious proliferation on Pakistan's side.

Because everyone is complicent to it. I disagree, though. Saudi will never really use anything and cannot do anything on its own. Iran on the other hand. It's not to do with the people, the government will slaughter 3/4 of the population itself if it has to and in 50 years there will be no liberal Iranians left. That's how iraq and iran got to the way they are in the first place.

Something bad is going to happen for middle east.

Arcadefire
11-08-2013, 02:50 AM
Half of these rouge countries who want to obtain nuclear war heads do not have the facility to maintain the weaponry. THey get a nuke to show the US that they have huge balls, then what's next? The second coming of Grenoble? Iran is capeable of it but, I think their government is desperate to have all the sanctions lifted off. You see, while Iranian government may be pro muslim, most Iranians I know happen to believe that the government should reform towards secularism.

Saudi's would never get the weapons because:

A. its basically America's bitch. With a Nuclear warhead, America would no longer be needed as the body guard of the Saudis.
B. Israel would not approve of it.
c. They do not have the brains to maintain the technology.

daedal1
11-08-2013, 02:56 AM
I dont knwo where to begin. Over the fact that you think Pakistani people are product of Arabization or the fact that you take pride in knowing that pakistani labor workers are treated like shit in the middle east?



Sky Earth is correct, even indian elites admit that there would have been a civil war in the subcontinent had it not been for partition:

http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2012-08-15/news/33216643_1_hindus-partition-muslim-league

And the social situation with arabs and pakis is different than with turks, turks eventually ruled over arabs, as did mongols, hence you saw muslims like tamerlane who felt that they could do whatever they wanted to arabs, whereas pakis were mainly just ruled by foreign arab, turk, mongol/mughal invaders, they were always in a servile position.

Prisoner Of Ice
11-08-2013, 02:58 AM
It's pretty easy to maintain once it's set up. Delivery is very hard across continents but as a defensive weapon it's literally the bomb. One nuke means you can't really invade a country without risking losing a whole division or more.

Arcadefire
11-08-2013, 02:59 AM
Point being , while the Ottoman empire did rule over the Arabs, they still bowed down to the Arabic lifestyle. If they had culturally dominated over the arabs, then the middle east would no longer have been the centre of the universe for the muslims.

daedal1
11-08-2013, 03:02 AM
Point being , while the Ottoman empire did rule over the Arabs, they still bowed down to the Arabic lifestyle. If they had culturally dominated over the arabs, then the middle east would no longer have been the centre of the universe for the muslims.

The Turks politically and socially dominated the arabs, culturally, the Ottomans had as much persian influences as it did arabic influences.

Arcadefire
11-08-2013, 03:06 AM
I dont think you get what I am saying. If the Turks did culturally dominate the Arabs, they would not have been praying to Allah in Arabic would they? Every one in themiddle east and Africa acknowledges that Islam is the product of the Arab world.

daedal1
11-08-2013, 03:10 AM
I dont think you get what I am saying. If the Turks did culturally dominate the Arabs, they would not have been praying to Allah in Arabic would they? Every one in themiddle east and Africa acknowledges that Islam is the product of the Arab world.

So? The Turks adopted Islam, that doesn't make them arabs. Christianity isn't completely european either.

Timur defied the arabs without hesitation and he even admired pagan mongols more than arabs:

"Timur's Turco-Mongolian heritage provided opportunities and challenges as he sought to rule the Mongol Empire and the Muslim world. According to the Mongol traditions, Timur could not claim the title of khan or rule the Mongol Empire because he was not a descendant of Genghis Khan. Therefore, Timur set up a puppet Chaghatay khan, Suyurghatmish, as the nominal ruler of Balkh as he pretended to act as a "protector of the member of a Chinggisid line, that of Chinggis Khan's eldest son, Jochi."[50]
As a result, Timur never used the title of khan because the name khan could only be used by those who come from the same lineage as Genghis Khan himself. Timur instead used the title of amir meaning general, and acting in the name of the Chagatai ruler of Transoxania.[51]
To reinforce his position in the Mongol Empire, Timur managed to acquire the royal title of son-in-law when he married a princess of Chinggisid descent.[52]
Likewise, Tamerlane could not claim the supreme title of the Islamic world, caliph, because the “office was limited to the Quraysh, the tribe of the Prophet Muhammad.”[53] Therefore, Tamerlane reacted to the challenge by creating a myth and image of himself as a “supernatural personal power””[53] ordained by God. Since Tamerlane had a successful career as a conqueror, it was easy to justify his rule as ordained and favored by God since no ordinary man could be a possessor of such good fortune that resistance would be seen as opposing the will of Allah. Moreover, the Islamic notion that military and political success was the result of Allah’s favor had long been successfully exploited by earlier rulers. Therefore, Tamerlane’s assertions would not have seemed unbelievable to his fellow Islamic people."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timur

Sky earth
11-08-2013, 03:56 AM
I dont knwo where to begin. Over the fact that you think Pakistani people are product of Arabization or the fact that you take pride in knowing that pakistani labor workers are treated like shit in the middle east?

In either case:
a. Pakistan was not created because of muslims forcing their culture on south asians you moron! lol Pakistan was created for political reasons. Separating the muslims from the rest of India after partion circa 1945 because at the time they felt that the Sikhs and Hindus would slaughter them. This was obviously not the case as there are MORE muslims in India than there are in Pakistan. While they are muslims, their culture is no different than people from north west India.

b. Lol "Many pakistanis consider Arabs as allahs chosen people" . This is news to me. But then, I am not a muslim so I cant really comment on it. Every thing in islam favours the Arabs and their culture. So in theory, you a TURK as well as your forefathers who had to convert or get killed, would be in the same boat as the Pakistani people. Do you look towards the mecca (Arabia) when you pray? So you also say your prayers in arabic?

I dont take pride in it how Pakistanis are treated in Saudi Arabia or UAE. I said that it's SAD how you are treated by many Arabs. Pakistan IS a product of Islamization of South Asian Hindus. All historians will agree with that. What is a Pakistani? Punjabis, Afghans, Kashmiris, Sindhis and Beluchis whose identity is based on Islam.

According to Pakistan Studies curriculum, Muhammad bin Qasim is often referred to as the first Pakistani.[9] Muhammad Ali Jinnah also acclaimed the Pakistan movement to have started when the first Muslim put a foot in the Gateway of Islam.[1

Your ancestors were probably Hindus who were forecibly converted by Muslim invaders like Muhammed bin Qasim, Mahmud Ghaznawi, Muhammed of Ghor or Aurangzeb. Many were also converted by Sufis but the destruction and jihad of Hindus created modern Pakistan. That's also the reason why Paksitanis and Indians hate each other. The Indians see you as weak traitors who gave up their real Hindu culture and adopted the culture and religion of brutal invaders while many Pakistanis see Indians as infidel Hindus who will burn in hell. Islam was political oppurtinism for the Oghuz Turks. The Gokturks and the Turgesh Khanate fought against the Arabs but we didn't convert in that time: Most Turkmens were converted peacefully by Persian Sufis in the 10th century while Pakistanis were mainly converted to Islam by Arab, Turkic and Afghan invaders.

Sorry but it's world wide known that Pakistanis lick the ass of Arabs just because the prophet was an Arab and because Islam originated in Saudi Arabia.

http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2013/10/SAUDI05.png

This must be a classical example of Stockholm syndrome on a national level if we consider the fact how you are treated by Saudis.

StonyArabia
11-08-2013, 04:15 AM
^ Saudi Arabia never existed, since it was Arabia, that's where Islam originated. Saudi Arabia is a modern development and named after the ruling clan of Saud which belongs to the Anizah.That said the Arabs never made an impact upon India, and people like Shah-Jehan who are of Indian origins will tell you this. Like many regions it came via trade as well.

Sky earth
11-08-2013, 04:17 AM
^ It was your Turkic ancestors who did not mine.

Not only Turkic peoples converted the Pakistanis to Islam. The first Muslim invader was an Umayyad Arab general and his conquest of Sindh and Punjabi enabled Further Islamic expansion into South Asia. Persian Muslims played also a major role in the Islamization of Pakistanis as aristocrats and scholars. The Lingua Franca of the "Turkic" Ghaznavid and Mughal empire was Persian. There is no Turkic presence in South Asia because all of them were completely Persianized

Arabs as religious scholars, Persians as major aristocrats and Turkics as rulers.

These three groups created Pakistan and Pakistanis

daedal1
11-08-2013, 04:20 AM
^ Saudi Arabia never existed, since it was Arabia, that's where Islam originated. Saudi Arabia is a modern development and named after the ruling clan of Saud which belongs to the Anizah.That said the Arabs never made an impact upon India, and people like Shah-Jehan who are of Indian origins will tell you this. Like many regions it came via trade as well.

The impact of trade had as much limited impact as it did in China with the Huis. It was the Mongols/Mughals and Turks who are responsible for the bulk of the conversions, which occurred under their rule.

StonyArabia
11-08-2013, 04:21 AM
Not only Turkic peoples converted the Pakistanis to Islam. The first Muslim invader was an Umayyad Arab general and his conquest of Sindh and Punjabi enabled Further Islamic expansion into South Asia. Persian Muslims played also a major role in the Islamization of Pakistanis as aristocrats and scholars. The Lingua Franca of the "Turkic" Ghaznavid and Mughal empire was Persian. There is no Turkic presence in South Asia because all of them were completely Persianized

Arabs as religious scholars, Persians as major aristocrats and Turkics as rulers.

These three groups created Pakistan and Pakistanis

True I agree with this totally.