Defining Heathenry

[Psychonaut]

This thread (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10015) got me thinking today. Since we're effectively reclaiming and redefining the term Heathen, as current dictionary definitions are wholly inadequate, what might be a viable dictionary-esque definition of the term?

[Freomæg]

I missed that thread, but as for this... I can brainstorm (probably by offering the obvious stuff) but I really don't consider myself typical enough of Heathens to offer an entire useful definition.

[Tabiti]

Heathen - someone following the original, pre-christian believes, philosophy, moral values and way of life of his ancestors.

[Freomæg]

I like it. But there should be something pertaining specifically to Heathenism as a Germanic tradition. Maybe something like:

Heathen - someone following the original, pre-christian beliefs, philosophy, moral values and way of life of his ancestors - usually Germanic.

[Psychonaut]

Thank you guys. So, drawing on that, we might have something like this?


Heathenry

hea·then·ry (IPA: hi·ðən·ri)

-noun
1. the pre-Christian, ancestral religions of Northern and Western Europe (distinctively applied to those beliefs of the Germanic and Celto-Germanic peoples)
2. the contemporary, reawakened forms such religions

Origin:
bef. 900; ME hethen, OE hǣðen, akin to G Heide, heidnisch (adj.), ON heiðingi (n.), heiðinn (adj.), Goth haiþnō (n.)

Related Forms:
hea·then, hea·then·dom, hea·then·ism n.

Variously Known As:
Ásatrú, Odinism, Forn Siðr, and Theodism

See anything that ought to be amended?

[Amapola]

So... the European pre-Christian religions not considered Germanic or Celtic would be excluded? I would be hesitant about considering Iberian gods (by Iberian I mean the tribes called Iberians, not the rest of religions of the Iberian peninsula where there were Celtic ones too) and goddess Celtic or Germanic but they are undoubtedly within the Western European sphere. However, considering that the Iberians could have been similar to the Celtic populations from the first millennium before Christ in Ireland, Great Britain and France, we might not need to think too much about it anyway.

[Psychonaut]

So... the European pre-Christian religions not considered Germanic or Celtic would be excluded? I would be hesitant about considering Iberian gods and goddess Celtic or Germanic but they are undoubtedly within the Western European sphere.

When people speak of things as being Heathen, those are the spheres that're usually encompassed. Some use it to encompass the purely Celtic sphere as well, but that usage is not quite universally accepted among Heathens. Southern (Latin, Greek, etc.) pre-Christian faiths are not described as Heathen by any self-described Heathens I've ever met. The same goes for the Eastern branches.

[Amapola]

Ok I understand now, thanks for it :). I find it strange though the "north-European" limit, given the good number of Celtic spiritual practices that there were back then in Southern countries like Spain, Portugal or Italy.. :O

[Tabiti]

And what about non Germanics? How they should call themselves instead? Pagan?
We have a word for that and it's translated exactly like "Pagan", however it has quite interesting roots, including "I".
So, can we conclude that every nation should have a different name to describe its certain native spiritual groups?

[Psychonaut]

And what about non Germanics? How they should call themselves instead? Pagan?
We have a word for that and it's translated exactly like "Pagan", however it has quite interesting roots, including "I".
So, can we conclude that every nation should have a different name to describe its certain native spiritual groups?

Pagan works well for Latins, Ethnos (or Hellenismos) for Greeks, Romuva for Balts, Rodnovery for Slavs, etc.

[Skandi]

I would like to see Heathery defined as only pertaining to the worship of the pantheon of gods headed by Odin in all of his/their names, many Celtic practices do not follow this set of gods and should therefore have a different name.

[Psychonaut]

I would like to see Heathery defined as only pertaining to the worship of the pantheon of gods headed by Odin in all of his/their names, many Celtic practices do not follow this set of gods and should therefore have a different name.

I'll agree that strict Celtic practices generally wouldn't be considered Heathen. Might as well leave that bit out. I don't know about including Odin in the general definition though. That would exclude the Swedes who had Ing head their pantheon, the Saxons with Irmin/Saxnot, etc.

Something more like this, perhaps?


Heathenry

hea·then·ry (IPA: hi·ðən·ri)

-noun
1. the pre-Christian, ancestral religions of Northern and Western Europe (distinctively applied to those beliefs of the Germanic peoples)
2. the contemporary, reawakened forms such religions

Origin:
bef. 900; ME hethen, OE hǣðen, akin to G Heide, heidnisch (adj.), ON heiðingi (n.), heiðinn (adj.), Goth haiþnō (n.)

Related Forms:
hea·then, hea·then·dom, hea·then·ism n.

Variously Known As:
Ásatrú, Odinism, Forn Siðr, and Theodism

[Frigga]

Paganism could probably pertain to the group of ancient religions that were in the original influence of the Latin language as Pagan is a Latin word. Heathenry should probably be used to describe those in the influence of Germanic languages as it is a Germanic word. Celtic languages have had their own words for their own religions, and those should be adopted as well, as a symbol of attempting to realign with that which was originally practiced by their ancestors. It would give more heart to what they want to practice, and a sense of ownership.

[Lutiferre]

At least a little active self reflection came out of my thread, then :)

[Baron Samedi]

I'll agree that strict Celtic practices generally wouldn't be considered Heathen. Might as well leave that bit out. I don't know about including Odin in the general definition though. That would exclude the Swedes who had Ing head their pantheon, the Saxons with Irmin/Saxnot, etc.

Something more like this, perhaps?

Why would they not be considered heathen?

Terminology?

[Nodens]

The question now becomes, What term should be used to describe pre-Christian European religion as a whole, and should we include non-IE (Finnic, Basque, etc.) and/or Indo-Aryan beliefs and practices under that umbrella?

[Amapola]

On a more serious note, guys... I think it's all about different uses of the concept... when you refer to Heathenry, as opposed to Paganism, as an strictlly Germanic thing, you are dealing with a concept that many people in Europe ,according to the classical definitions, disagree with; since for the majority of people in Europe the term pagan simply means "idolatrous and polytheistic". Even the word "heathen" coming from old English "haethen" does not imply anything Germanic: "a person who does not acknowledge the God of Christianity, Judaism or Islam; pagan". Old English hæðen "not Christian or Jewish". So Why including or excluding pre-Christian practices at ease? I quite don't see it.

[Lutiferre]

On a more serious note, guys... I think it's all about different uses of the concept... when you refer to Heathenry, as opposed to Paganism, as an strictlly Germanic thing, you are dealing with a concept that many people in Europe ,according to the classical definitions, disagree with; since for the majority of people in Europe the term pagan simply means "idolatrous and polytheistic". Even the word "heathen" coming from old English "haethen" does not imply anything Germanic: "a person who does not acknowledge the God of Christianity, Judaism or Islam; pagan". Old English hæðen "not Christian or Jewish". So Why including or excluding pre-Christian practices at ease? I quite don't see it.

heathen (from etymonline.com)

O.E. hæðen "not Christian or Jewish," merged with O.N. heiðinn. Historically assumed to be from Goth. haiþno "gentile, heathen woman," used by Ulfilas in the first translation of the Bible into a Gmc. language (cf. Mark 7:26, for "Greek"); if so it could be a derivative of Goth. haiþi "dwelling on the heath," but this sense is not recorded. It may have been chosen on model of L. paganus (see pagan), or for resemblance to Gk. ethne (see gentile), or may in fact be a borrowing of that word, perhaps via Armenian hethanos. Like other words for exclusively Christian ideas (e.g. church) it would have come first into Gothic, then spread to other Gmc. languages.

[Piparskeggr]

Axe ewe alley, "heathen" is a difficult thing to define.

As an Asatruar (Asatru being a modern linguistic construct) I am trying to adhere to a modern rediscovery and reconstruction of the beliefs, both spiritual and temporal, of my pre-Christian, northern European ancestors who have come to be known as Germanic and Nordic.

I would use Heathen for the ways of folk who are not of Greco-Roman ancestry and Pagan for those who are.

For me, being Heathen or Pagan does denote striving to build your worldview from within that of a particular culture, which is of one's ancestry.

Those who do not are Wannabees and have commitment issues.

[Loddfafner]

The dictionary is the wrong place to look for the meaning of "heathen" because its meaning is contested, and it is that very process of contestation that makes it what it is.

[Lutiferre]

The dictionary is the wrong place to look for the meaning of "heathen" because its meaning is contested, and it is that very process of contestation that makes it what it is.
It's etymology, not just any dictionary. It is at least helpful in understanding the word in the light of what really preconditioned it.

That said, I nowhere implied that the etymology should be all encompassing for that reason.

[Loxias]

Since apparently Germanic heathenry was very much tied to ancestry, blood, folk, or however you want to call it. How come so many people of mainly Celtic heritage, or of Celto-Germanic mixed blood practice it? Would the original heathens have accepted it?
What do purely Germanic (from Europe) heathens think about it?
I think a big part of why there is conflict over the name is because a lot of the practicioners descend from more than one people, but still want to associate with the Germanic side while not neglecting their whole ancestry, when there sure could have been other names for the Celtic tradition.

[Psychonaut]

On a more serious note, guys... I think it's all about different uses of the concept... when you refer to Heathenry, as opposed to Paganism, as an strictlly Germanic thing, you are dealing with a concept that many people in Europe ,according to the classical definitions, disagree with; since for the majority of people in Europe the term pagan simply means "idolatrous and polytheistic". Even the word "heathen" coming from old English "haethen" does not imply anything Germanic: "a person who does not acknowledge the God of Christianity, Judaism or Islam; pagan". Old English hæðen "not Christian or Jewish". So Why including or excluding pre-Christian practices at ease? I quite don't see it.


heathen (from etymonline.com)...

Alana and Lutiferre, what I'm getting at with this thread is not an historic definition or usage of the term, but a definition of the word as it is used by and applied to those who refer to their religion as Heathenry. As such, the definition I'm working on in this thread has naught to do with the historical sense of Heathen as being a pejorative or with contemporary misunderstandings of its application as viewed from without. The proposed definition would be Heathenry as defined by self-described Heathens.

[Freomæg]

The question now becomes, What term should be used to describe pre-Christian European religion as a whole, and should we include non-IE (Finnic, Basque, etc.) and/or Indo-Aryan beliefs and practices under that umbrella?
I don't see any more reason to group the pre-Christian European traditions together than to group the World's pre-Christian traditions together. The entire Globe was polytheistic and I think the commonalities were universal not Euro-centric.

'Pagan' seems the most sensible term to encompass all the world's pre-Christian traditions, as it already is.

[Nodens]

I don't see any more reason to group the pre-Christian European traditions together than to group the World's pre-Christian traditions together. The entire Globe was polytheistic and I think the commonalities were universal not Euro-centric.

'Pagan' seems the most sensible term to encompass all the world's pre-Christian traditions, as it already is.

So you find that there are no grounds to identify Latin and Hellenic (or for that matter Celtic and Germanic or Baltic and Slavic) traditions as part of a more closely related group than Mayan and Scandinavian traditions?

[Freomæg]

So you find that there are no grounds to identify Latin and Hellenic (or for that matter Celtic and Germanic or Baltic and Slavic) traditions as part of a more closely related group than Mayan and Scandinavian traditions?
They are closer, of course, but not close enough to justify a distinct grouping in my opinion. In fact, I don't see the motivation in seeking a distinctive grouping for European traditions beyond 'European Paganism'.

[Lyfing]

Hey Psychonaut,


Thank you guys. So, drawing on that, we might have something like this?


Heathenry

hea·then·ry (IPA: hi·ðən·ri)

-noun
1. the pre-Christian, ancestral religions of Northern and Western Europe (distinctively applied to those beliefs of the Germanic peoples)
2. the contemporary, reawakened forms such religions

Origin:
bef. 900; ME hethen, OE hǣðen, akin to G Heide, heidnisch (adj.), ON heiðingi (n.), heiðinn (adj.), Goth haiþnō (n.)

Related Forms:
hea·then, hea·then·dom, hea·then·ism n.

Variously Known As:
Ásatrú, Odinism, Forn Siðr, and Theodism



See anything that ought to be amended?

It needs Odalism with those other isms. It seems that part is underplayed these days.

Later,
-Lyfing

[Kadu]

I would like to know in what consists the Heathen liturgic practises, i would be thankful if someone could enlight me about it.

[Loddfafner]

I would like to know in what consists the Heathen liturgic practises, i would be thankful if someone could enlight me about it.

What efforts at liturgy I've seen written down were far too corny to recite with a straight face. Improvisation works much better.

[Jamt]

There was a documentary on Swedish tv about Danish Heathens, good people: http://www.dr.dk/DR2/Tro/Himlen+over+Danmark/Programmerne/20061116115016.htm. I wish I could link to the film and get Americans to comment on it. I wonder if your spirituality and rites are similar. In that case I would understand and sympathize some.

[Piparskeggr]

I would like to know in what consists the Heathen liturgic practises, i would be thankful if someone could enlight me about it.

Well, as Heathenry (definition and TM pending ,-) has no single central authority, I can only answer from my own perspective.

We have no liturgy as such, no Sacred Writ to which all and sundry cleave as THE Holy Words of the Gods.

However, in general, we do have texts, which most agree are basic sources of information about the Elder Ways upon which we try and base our lives: the Poetic and Prose Eddas, Heimskringla, Icelandic Sagas, Beowulf...basically the surviving writings from the Continental and Island folk of Germanic and Nordic descent.

There are also newer texts, histories, collections of folk lore, archaeological treatises and other such, which are additional sources of information.

Modernly, in a Liturgical sense, I rely mostly upon myself and the poetry I write, which is used within the modes of worship I practice.

[Lutiferre]

Alana and Lutiferre, what I'm getting at with this thread is not an historic definition or usage of the term, but a definition of the word as it is used by and applied to those who refer to their religion as Heathenry. As such, the definition I'm working on in this thread has naught to do with the historical sense of Heathen as being a pejorative or with contemporary misunderstandings of its application as viewed from without. The proposed definition would be Heathenry as defined by self-described Heathens.

Of course. Still, I thought the etymology was at least minimally relevant, if anything it's always nice to shed a little light on where a word which we consider important in some way, comes from.

[Liffrea]

To be honest I have given it scant regard (never been that interested in the application of labels). I describe myself as an Odinist more as a statement against the reconstructionist approach but it’s not an absolute and I don’t attach that much meaning to it.

[Psychonaut]

Hey Psychonaut,

It needs Odalism with those other isms. It seems that part is underplayed these days.

Later,
-Lyfing

Definitely, glad you reminded me.


Heathenry

hea·then·ry (IPA: hi·ðən·ri)

-noun
1. the pre-Christian, ancestral religions of Northern and Western Europe (distinctively applied to those beliefs of the Germanic peoples)
2. the contemporary, reawakened forms such religions

Origin:
bef. 900; ME hethen, OE hǣðen, akin to G Heide, heidnisch (adj.), ON heiðingi (n.), heiðinn (adj.), Goth haiþnō (n.)

Related Forms:
hea·then, hea·then·dom, hea·then·ism n.

Variously Known As:
Ásatrú, Odinism, Forn Siðr, Theodism, and Odalism

Any other suggestions?

[Lutiferre]

Definitely, glad you reminded me.



Any other suggestions?

What about writing, in addition to the etymology, what the word means? That is, "referring to the heath", or "referring to the people on the heath who kept to the old customs", or whatever happens to be correct.

[Psychonaut]

What about writing, in addition to the etymology, what the word means? That is, "referring to the heath", or "referring to the people on the heath who kept to the old customs", or whatever happens to be correct.

I like it. So, something like this, with more etymological explanation?


Heathenry

hea·then·ry (IPA: hi·ðən·ri)

-noun
1. the pre-Christian, ancestral religions of Northern and Western Europe (distinctively applied to those beliefs of the Germanic peoples)
2. the contemporary, reawakened forms such religions

Etymology:
bef. 900; ME hethen, OE hǣðen (hæð itself being the Modern English heath, "a tract of unplowed land"), ON heiðinn, Goth haiþnō (stemming from haiþi, "dwelling on the heath")

Related Forms:
hea·then, hea·then·dom, hea·then·ism n.

Variously Known As:
Ásatrú, Odinism, Forn Siðr, Theodism, and Odalism

[Óttar]

See anything that ought to be amended?
Perhaps that including See Pagan, and then working out a definition of paganism to include all pre-Christian pantheons? Esp. European.

[Psychonaut]

Perhaps that including See Pagan, and then working out a definition of paganism to include all pre-Christian pantheons? Esp. European.

If this were to be part of a larger set of definitions I'd agree, but the purpose of this is to be able to stand singularly.

[Loxias]

It's interesting, heathenry refers to unplowed land, while paganism refers to peasantry, more or less those who plow the land... Is there some kind of relationship to be seen here?

[Osweo]

It's interesting, heathenry refers to unplowed land, while paganism refers to peasantry, more or less those who plow the land...
I always understood pagus as just meaning 'countryside'. Ulfilas seems to have understood it that way, or he wouldn't have translated into Gothic the way he did. (Or shit, was it from Greek? Replace the Goth with the relevant Latin translater! Was it Jerome?)

Incidentally, pagus gave Cornish Pow as in Pow Saws (England). Countryfolk, or Pagenses, gave Welsh Powys.

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Loxias
It's interesting, heathenry refers to unplowed land, while paganism refers to peasantry, more or less those who plow the land... Is there some kind of relationship to be seen here?

It’s generally taken that Christianity was more a metropolitan religion and that Paganism largely survived in the rural country. It is a questioned assumption, though, it’s highly probable that Christianity was just as popular with the rural population but given the reality that Christian artefacts are rare in the archaeological record we would have no material way of understanding the numbers. By contrast the archaeological record for south-west Britain in the immediate post-Roman decades implies that Paganism survived substantially amongst the ruling elite.

It is seemingly an over simplification, one could see “Heathen” or “Pagan” as a term of derision by a growing metropolitan based Christian elite, patronised by the Roman political class, the appropriation of supposed sophisticative civilised mores vs country bumpkiness, if you will. By the 5th century Roman and Christian were beginning to be seen as synonymous.

[Osweo]

It’s generally taken that Christianity was more a metropolitan religion and that Paganism largely survived in the rural country. It is a questioned assumption, though, it’s highly probable that Christianity was just as popular with the rural population but given the reality that Christian artefacts are rare in the archaeological record we would have no material way of understanding the numbers.
I'd take issue with that by asking how the peasantry got their Christianity in the first place. Christianity is quite a complex package, and requires a great deal be learnt and unlearnt by new converts. Agricultural labourers in that period were living in abject serfdom (remember the hopeless but desperately violent rage of the Bacaudae). Nobody among the urban bishops gave a toss for them, not till a while later, anyway. They were a resource to be mercilessly ground down for annonae or taxes, in and after the Empire. Christ will not have appeared in their decayed spiritual life, except as the most poorly understood syncretic character.

By contrast the archaeological record for south-west Britain in the immediate post-Roman decades implies that Paganism survived substantially amongst the ruling elite.
The Lydney complex isn't so much 'post' as 'late' Roman, no? Or did you have anything else in mind?

As for the areas beyond Gloucestershire, I'd call the elite more secular and apathetic rather than pre-Christian, if we're to believe the hagiography. The missionaries in Cornwall and Dumnonia do not seem to have been involved in toppling old cults so much as reinvigorating the lax nominal Christianity that was already taken as read. If you look at Gildas, you'll notice that paganism was just about the only charge he DIDN'T throw at the upstart tyrants of his day. Men living in the shadow of Constantine, anxious to prove their Romanitas and legitimacy, would sooner have claimed Christian status rather than pagan, simply for the prestige of it. We know how they were trading with the Mediterranean in the southwest, anxious to demonstrate their links with Roman civilisation. Blatant Celtic paganism is not likely to have figured in their attitudes at all.

It is seemingly an over simplification, one could see “Heathen” or “Pagan” as a term of derision by a growing metropolitan based Christian elite, patronised by the Roman political class, the appropriation of supposed sophisticative civilised mores vs country bumpkiness, if you will. By the 5th century Roman and Christian were beginning to be seen as synonymous.
Aye. Patrick is a good example of this phenomenon, if we turn again to the sources. I'm thinking of his letter to Coroticus, when he goes on about how hard it is to call such a wicked unChristian man a 'fellow citizen'.

[Kadu]

Heathenry seems much better than the Roman Catholic church or any other Christian, Judaic or Islamic congregation. You don't need temples, a supra-ruling power/entity as the Church, a religious body by other words, and from that point of view it seems very healthy.

But i fail to see how people feel the urge to embrace such practises and beliefs, especially in North America as there is a huge temporal discontinuity between the times of old Paganism and nowdays. I'm sure that you were all raised in a society with a Christian mindset, so how did you manage to change and embrace such beliefs being so different from the Monotheist Abrahamic religions?

[Psychonaut]

Heathenry seems much better than the Roman Catholic church or any other Christian, Judaic or Islamic congregation. You don't need temples, a supra-ruling power/entity as the Church, a religious body by other words, and from that point of view it seems very healthy.

I agree. The decentralization of religious authority is definitely a good thing for us.


But i fail to see how people feel the urge to embrace such practises and beliefs, especially in North America as there is a huge temporal discontinuity between the times of old Paganism and nowdays. I'm sure that you were all raised in a society with a Christian mindset, so how did you manage to change and embrace such beliefs being so different from the Monotheist Abrahamic religions?

Foxie started a thread with the same question (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1271) a while ago. ;)

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Osweo
The Lydney complex isn't so much 'post' as 'late' Roman, no? Or did you have anything else in mind?

There are quite a few temple and/or villa sites from the late Roman and immediate post Roman decades, Bath, Carrawburgh, Henley Wood, Nettleton etc. If you can get hold of it I would recommend Ken Dark’s Britain and the End of the Roman Empire.

[Piparskeggr]

...so how did you manage to change and embrace such beliefs being so different from the Monotheist Abrahamic religions?

For me, finding Asatru was the culmination of a 20 year search, which started when doubts were raised during Confirmation class (November, 1969) and ended with a confirmatory vision during a sweat lodge ceremony (November, 1989).

I was raised within the Roman Catholic Church, which I think enabled me to make the break both on an intellectual and spiritual level.

RC is a tacitly polytheistic religion in my view, what with Trinitarianism, Marianism, the Cults of the Saints, rituals involving Ceremonial Magic (Transubstantiation) and all...it's structure being much like its predecessor, the Roman State Religion.

I believe that growing up in this intellectual - dogmatic milieu suited me very well for the change, especially when coupled with my parents' desire that I learn to think for myself and to question that which I was taught.

Something from deep within was calling and for a few years after I self-identified with the Northern Holy Powers I had no name for what I believed. I found others, who believed as did I in 1994, thereby learning the term Asatru.

I'm well aware of the fullness of my family history and appreciate that many generations believed differently than do I.

I also appreciate that the teachings and likely practices of the Rabbi Yeshua are not what Christianity has become, as filtered through the Revelatory musings of Saul of Tarsus and being modified by impact with every culture with which it has come into contact.

I do not think that a Rabbi of 2000 years ago would recognize what has become...

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Kadu
But i fail to see how people feel the urge to embrace such practises and beliefs, especially in North America as there is a huge temporal discontinuity between the times of old Paganism and nowdays. I'm sure that you were all raised in a society with a Christian mindset, so how did you manage to change and embrace such beliefs being so different from the Monotheist Abrahamic religions?

I think development of your spiritual nature is dependent upon the individual, some feel the urge, some do not. You don’t learn to, you either have the urge or you don’t. I always have, even though I haven’t always understood it.

Why Odinism? A lot to go into, but basically it’s my ancestral heritage, it is a philosophy/theology I can relate to on a personal as well as intellectual level and it offers freedom of growth and experience.

Odinism has never really died, it has always existed as long as our people have, and always will as long as one of us remains. It is us, it’s how we view the world, it’s how we think and how we feel. Everyone has this, even those who don’t recognise it, even those who embrace different religions. Odinism isn’t something you pick up, it’s within, but, as above, you either have the urge to embrace and grow with it, acknowledging it’s existence, or you do not. Anyone can be an Odinist but, perhaps, not everyone should be one.