'American' Ethnicity...?

[SuuT]

I was thinking the other day about how I am essentially a man without any ethnicity at all: I've been to, and lived in, too many places to really narrow such a thing down to a point fine enough to call some one thing my 'ethnicity'. Also, having now lived the majority of my life in America coupled with the life experiences I have had, I am pretty sure that there is no such beast as an 'American' ethnicity. This is not to say that there is no loose North American Identity, per se; but when compared and contrasted with British, European and Scandinavian ethnic bonds, the dynamic is so completely different in North America, and America in particular, as to be - in effect - without ethnicity.

Unless...: Anglo-American - this makes sense to me; French American - this makes sense to me; Scandinavian American - this makes sense to me, etc. Without qualification of the term 'American', I just don't see a 'definitive' ethnicity.

What do you think?

[Allenson]

We are, in this sense, somewhat of a rootless lot, Suut. I feel it too. Just when I think I've nailed it down, the slope turns slick again.

I suspect that being an 'American' had a more definitive meaning in the past than it does today. It likely had more heft. Now, being an 'American' is little more than filling out some forms and taking advantage of a very generous system. It's quite cheap if you ask me. I see a very clear divide between the mindsets of 'Americans' whose ties are pre-Revolutionary and those who showed up after the hard work was done..... Or, maybe even a little later in history, say, the Civil War as a cut-off. Not that any of us alive now had anything personally to do with these events of the past--but it seems that there is a recognition of thought, passed down through the families of Old Stockers, a sublte nod, a wink of the eye between them and a musket still hangs above the fireplace.

Anyway, somehow our unique identity has been sold down the river, out from under us, as we toiled away in the forests, fields & factories. We weren't even looking, or the powers that be were very cunning, or both.

Regarding the hyphenation issue--I see it as a manifestation of how zebra-striped "we've" become due to cheap citizenship. Being an 'American' used to mean a certain set of familial histories, inherited as a package of traits, but not so anymore. So, to distinguish & contrast against the others, many now hyphenate.

Luckily, America is a big place, with lots of nuances, local 'cultures', genepools and memepools, some of which have been in place and operating in continuum for several centuries. These is what we have to cling to, these are closest we have to bonefide ethnicities, these quirky localisms of ours. I'm glad to be a New Englander.

[SuuT]

We are, in this sense, somewhat of a rootless lot, Suut. I feel it too. Just when I think I've nailed it down, the slope turns slick again.

You know, while I have a certain melencholy over it at times, I'm pretty quick to get jostled-out of it: I wouldn't trade anything about my life for a hard and fast ethnic designation; moreover, I can't objectively or subjectively view it as anything other than my 'root system' being larger than your average tree. I've lost because of it, but have gained so very much more, I think.


I suspect that being an 'American' had a more definitive meaning in the past than it does today. It likely had more heft. Now, being an 'American' is little more than filling out some forms and taking advantage of a very generous system. It's quite cheap if you ask me. I see a very clear divide between the mindsets of 'Americans' whose ties are pre-Revolutionary and those who showed up after the hard work was done..... Or, maybe even a little later in history, say, the Civil War as a cut-off. Not that any of us alive now had anything personally to do with these events of the past--but it seems that there is a recognition of thought, passed down through the families of Old Stockers, a sublte nod, a wink of the eye between them and a musket still hangs above the fireplace.

Anyway, somehow our unique identity has been sold down the river, out from under us, as we toiled away in the forests, fields & factories. We weren't even looking, or the powers that be were very cunning, or both.

Regarding the hyphenation issue--I see it as a manifestation of how zebra-striped "we've" become due to cheap citizenship. Being an 'American' used to mean a certain set of familial histories, inherited as a package of traits, but not so anymore. So, to distinguish & contrast against the others, many now hyphenate.

Sheer poetry. :thumbs: But I fear there is no lesson in this American tragedy: I mean that if we've already crossed the brink, or, if the brink lies just ahead, very few seem to see it or care.


Luckily, America is a big place, with lots of nuances, local 'cultures', genepools and memepools, some of which have been in place and operating in continuum for several centuries. These is what we have to cling to, these are closest we have to bonefide ethnicities, these quirky localisms of ours. I'm glad to be a New Englander.

And perhaps this is what's most strange about the 'American' dynamic: This country has managed, somehow, to transplant, evolve and refine micro-ethnicities from a macro/meta ethnic base all while not developing a formative ethnicity... Perhaps I'm looking at it wrong...:confused2:

[Lutiferre]

but when compared and contrasted with British, European and Scandinavian ethnic bonds, the dynamic is so completely different in North America, and America in particular, as to be - in effect - without ethnicity.
But don't you think this "American dynamic" could itself be the foundation for a sort of ethnicity? If you compare how different and alien Americans seem for Europeans and other people from other parts of the world, there surely is something which is peculiarly American, even if Americans themselves don't recognise it.

I for one have no problems seeing an American super-ethnicity consisting both of self-styled blacks, whites, hispanics, and others, all of which are ultimately the same: a mixture of a variety of things, and not anything at all apart from America.

[Lutiferre]

But don't you think this "American dynamic" could itself be the foundation for a sort of ethnicity? If you compare how different and alien Americans seem for Europeans and other people from other parts of the world, there surely is something which is peculiarly American, even if Americans themselves don't recognise it.

I for one have no problems seeing an American super-ethnicity consisting both of self-styled blacks, whites, hispanics, and others, all of which are ultimately the same: a mixture of a variety of things, and not anything at all apart from America.
Perhaps I should note that there is of course a meta-identity conflict between the Anglo-American sphere and the Hispano-American. This seems to be the major division, and is founded on linguistic, not ethnic grounds, since the Hispanic speakers are themselves ethnically mixed between all the varieties of ethnic groups all over the world, just like the Anglo-Americans.

So we seem to end up with two great super-identities (and that amounts in the end, to super-ethnicities), whose formation is not substantially different but is still not the same, and whose conflict will certainly not be racial or puristically ethnical, but at best super-ethnic.

[SuuT]

But don't you think this "American dynamic" could itself be the foundation for a sort of ethnicity?

That's just it, though: The 'divisions' here, relative to what the rest of the entire world would call "ethnic", are macro-meta-; or, micro- in nature...the middle is all but nebulous.


If you compare how different and alien Americans seem for Europeans and other people from other parts of the world, there surely is something which is peculiarly American, even if Americans themselves don't recognise it.

Many (if not all) of the so-called "Americanisms", however, are either an out-growth of a transplanted European-ism; or some slightly varied colloquialism rooted very strongly at an easily identifiable European source ("European" here meaning Britain, Scandinavia and Europe proper). Europeans who click on the television and think they are seeing America are not really worth comment. So, their idea of an Americanism as something alien is actually, and somewhat ironically, alien to America.


I for one have no problems seeing an American super-ethnicity consisting both of self-styled blacks, whites, hispanics, and others, all of which are ultimately the same: a mixture of a variety of things, and not anything at all apart from America.

:p No.

And that's (probably) my point. 'America' is incidental; the affliliations within America, however, are macro-meta- and micro- ethnically stalwart, while being ethnically without form (with European ethnic bonds being the standard from which I proceed to that observation).

[Allenson]

You know, while I have a certain melencholy over it at times, I'm pretty quick to get jostled-out of it: I wouldn't trade anything about my life for a hard and fast ethnic designation; moreover, I can't objectively or subjectively view it as anything other than my 'root system' being larger than your average tree. I've lost because of it, but have gained so very much more, I think.

This sounds like a healthy approach to me. If there's one thing that I've learned regarding race, ethnicity, etc., is that one particular unifying trait that all of humanity shares is that not one of us had any control over what family, region or period of history we were born into. To use the cliche, we had no say in the hand we were delt. :cool:



But I fear there is no lesson in this American tragedy: I mean that if we've already crossed the brink, or, if the brink lies just ahead, very few seem to see it or care.

Sure looks that way, eh? I'm affraid that the election of Obama is and can be seen as triumph of and justification for more zebrafication.



And perhaps this is what's most strange about the 'American' dynamic: This country has managed, somehow, to transplant, evolve and refine micro-ethnicities from a macro/meta ethnic base all while not developing a formative ethnicity... Perhaps I'm looking at it wrong...:confused2:

No, I see what you mean. People are provincial by nature I think, and while the short-cuts that blanket designations provide easy to, and oft-used, when push comes to shove, many prefer finer definitons.

They don't call it the American Experiment for nothing. ;)

[Allenson]

So, their idea of an Americanism as something alien is actually, and somewhat ironically, alien to America.

Right. I think that unless they've traveled here extensively, I don't think many Europeans realize how nuanced America really is. They like to cover us with one giant Big Mac wrapper. :p


since the Hispanic speakers are themselves ethnically mixed between all the varieties of ethnic groups all over the world, just like the Anglo-Americans.

Spanish speakers in North America ethnically range from pure Spaniards at one end, to pure Amerinds at the other--the bulk falling somewhere in between. Surely there are some other ethnic accretions in this "population" but they are minor in comparison to the other two.

Regarding 'Anglo-Americans', being one and harkening back to one of my earlier posts in this thread, I prefer a more refined definition. I do not consider English speaking blacks, for example, to be 'Anglo-Americans'. Sure, they speak English (only sort of, in some cases) but language alone is insufficient. Even other European derived groups that are here now but showed up comparitively late, such as Italians & Poles, are not Anglo-Americans in a stricter sense (not that I have anything against them, mind you--but they are what they are). I would reserve that title to people mainly of British decent whose familys have been here for some centuries. Due to overall deep historical similarities and the great adjustment they all went though together, leaning a whole new continent, I have no problem with extending this phrase to old stock colonial Dutch, Irish, Germans, Swedes, etc who became Anglicized sometime prior to, or, just following independence.

[Comte Arnau]

What do you think?

I think that you're quite right.

IMO, if you're born and grown in an American English language/cultural context, your ethnicity is American Anglic.

[Goidelic]

I think that you're quite right.

IMO, if you're born and grown in an American English language/cultural context, your ethnicity is American Anglic.

I agree with you've said, except if those Americans who have citizenship elsewhere & lived elsewhere, there ethnicity is different.

France has already headed in this direction, if you're born and grown in an French language/cultural context, your ethnicity is French, regardless of your ancestry.

Don't forget an American born to Scottish immigrant parents isn't necessarily ethnically/culturally the same as an American born to Sudanese immigrant parents, certainly not ancestrally unless you think their genomes magically become the same. ;)

That's one of the things I realized. I actually knew a girl born in Germany to Greek parents & culturally raised German, yet always identified as being Greek & the Germans recognized her as Greek. I'm beginning to think if she was born in America she'd be recognized as "American" due to the fact that we have more multicultural & multiracial areas all over the country full of Quadroons, Quintroons, Octoroons, Mestizos, Creoles, Black Indians etc. Also it's probably due to the fact she was born in the continent of Europe into the German "nation."

Still, I value ancestry much more than ethnicity, culture or nationality. I think we've already discussed that some full ancestral German-Brazilians could assimilate into Germany much more than a full ancestral Turk who was born and raised there and speaks the language, as well as knows the culture.

[Lutiferre]

Spanish speakers in North America ethnically range from pure Spaniards at one end, to pure Amerinds at the other--the bulk falling somewhere in between. Surely there are some other ethnic accretions in this "population" but they are minor in comparison to the other two.
Yes, of course. I never denied the dividedness inside of these spheres, but that nevertheless doesn't mean the spheres don't exist.


Regarding 'Anglo-Americans', being one and harkening back to one of my earlier posts in this thread, I prefer a more refined definition. I do not consider English speaking blacks, for example, to be 'Anglo-Americans'. Sure, they speak English (only sort of, in some cases) but language alone is insufficient.
Language alone is not all, but a larger linguistic-cultural-ethnic meta-sphere includes and is most easily designated by this principial lingual divisions. It's the most accurate way to make sense of it.

There are Hispanic "blacks" just as well as Anglo-American "blacks", like there are Hispanic "whites". In both cases, they are often mixed (the blacks, that is), and assimilated into different cultural and ethnic, and religious contexts; some of which are protestant, some of which are Catholic, etc.

In this sense, there are really distinctively Anglo-American blacks, and distinctively Hispanic ones. Denying it makes no sense; denying that there are divisions in the form of socio-racial subcultures makes no sense, either, and that is not what I am doing.


Even other European derived groups that are here now but showed up comparitively late, such as Italians & Poles, are not Anglo-Americans in a stricter sense (not that I have anything against them, mind you--but they are what they are).
But all of those groups entered not into a Hispanic-American sphere, but an Anglo-American one, even if it took time before an assimilation into it occured. To deny them to be part of the Anglo-American as opposed to Hispano-American sphere and hence, meta-identity, seems to me to be a denial of the reality.

[SuuT]

I agree with you've said, except if those Americans who have citizenship elsewhere & lived elsewhere, there ethnicity is different.



This is particularly salient to my own situation: I've lived in and seen more of Europe than most Europeans, and now I live in America - clearly my own situation explains itself. I don't particlularly care, either - I have no doubt as to who it is that I am and have no compelling urge to plug myself into an ethnic construct. However, the apparent lack of an exclusively American identity/ethnicity still seems inexplicable to me (although Allenson touched nicely on the thing, I think).

Further, I think you've touched on something of importance: I'll have to spin it around in my head, but 'Americans' seen to have effectively replaced 'ethnicity' with ancestry...:chin: - perhaps there is no gap, after all...


(I'm thinking out-loud with this stuff, so forgive me if it reads like it)

[Kadu]

Right. I think that unless they've traveled here extensively, I don't think many Europeans realize how nuanced America really is. They like to cover us with one giant Big Mac wrapper. :p

True, but lets take for instance the difference in the quantity of accents between the UK and the USA. Or i.e. and by what i experienced, the homogeneity that the American Southwestern states present.

I remember driving through Colorado, Arizona, Nevada and Utah and besides the landscape and climate variations of course, everything was very similar, all towns had the same structure and there was definitely a lifestyle transversal to all those people.
Of course things were a bit different when i was in Northern Florida, but still structured in the same way.

And i'm not talking about big cities because i believe they don't represent well or at least entirely the American reality. I'll leave my urban american experiences to other talks.

[Comte Arnau]

I agree with you've said, except if those Americans who have citizenship elsewhere & lived elsewhere, there ethnicity is different.

France has already headed in this direction, if you're born and grown in an French language/cultural context, your ethnicity is French, regardless of your
ancestry.

Don't forget an American born to Scottish immigrant parents isn't necessarily ethnically/culturally the same as an American born to Sudanese immigrant parents, certainly not ancestrally unless you think their genomes magically become the same. ;)

That is why I make a difference between nationality/citizenship, ethnicity, identity and ancestry.

To me, ethnicity is a cultural notion and as such, based on the cultural setting formed by a specific linguistic community. This is what shapes the basis of the way you understand the world, which is what makes an ethnic group distinct from the rest in the world. And this idea I keep, because it works regardless of other concepts like identity -which is very subjective- or ancestry -which is more a physical than a cultural thing.

That is why I think that the two guys you mentioned, born and grown in the same English-speaking setting, belong to the same ethnicity, even if they are different in any other aspect: biologically (ancestry/race), psychologically (identity) or politically (nationality/citizenship). I know this idea keeps me apart from most people in the forum.


That's one of the things I realized. I actually knew a girl born in Germany to Greek parents & culturally raised German, yet always identified as being Greek & the Germans recognized her as Greek.

That is because, even if in most cases ethnicity and identity coincide, some people can feel identified too with other ethnicities, with which they feel some special connection. I'd define that girl as of German ethnicity (specially if she doesn't speak Greek), even if she has a shared Greco-German identity. Now, if she speaks both languages perfectly and has enough cultural knowledge about her parents' homeland as to pass as a perfect Greek there, then we could talk about an example of a biethnic person.

Notice that I'm not meaning ethnicity = language. Immigration can erode someone's sense of belonging to an ethnic group, as the cultural connections get lost.


I'm beginning to think if she was born in America she'd be recognized as "American" due to the fact that we have more multicultural & multiracial areas all over the country full of Quadroons, Quintroons, Octoroons, Mestizos, Creoles, Black Indians etc.

What I've noticed is that there is much confusion in the New World about all these concepts, to the point that race and even ethnicity have become synonymous of identity. That is why terms like 'Hispanic' are so misunderstood, for instance. (Just generalizing, I'm not saying this is your case at all!)


Still, I value ancestry much more than ethnicity, culture or nationality. I think we've already discussed that some full ancestral German-Brazilians could assimilate into Germany much more than a full ancestral Turk who was born and raised there and speaks the language, as well as knows the culture.

I, on the contrary, value ethnicity more than ancestry. With this I mean that I do not care much about someone's ancestry as long as they get integrated into the ethnic group of that society. I'm obviously talking from a European perspective, I'm aware this subject is far more complicated in the 'New World'. :)

[Loyalist]

Certainly some form of an American identity exists in a civic sense, although that limited unity is almost exlusively in a cultural and linguistic sense. There is no unified American ethnicity, and the future development of one is, from the point of view of an individual concerned with preserving the European heritage of America, totally undesirable given today's demographical situation.

The formation of a singular American ethnicity was certainly possible until a certain point in history, as was the case for most Anglo Colonies. For the first few centuries of its existence, the backbone of American colonists were of English origin, with sizeable groups of Scots, Ulster-Scots, and Welsh. Gradually, the Dutch and Huguenots of New Netherlands and later the Germans of Pennsylvania and surrounding regions, as well as smaller pockets of Scandinavians throughout the former, were thoroughly Anglicized and became an indistinguishable part of the Anglo-American fold. Until the late-19th century, the inhabitants of the United States existed as a homogenoeus amalgamation of Germanic and Celtic blood. Unfortunately, that is when it all came crashing down. The influx of progressive-minded Irish Catholics, followed by Italians, Poles, Jews, and other alien groups, and their opening up of the door for immigration from other Europeans and non-Europeans, ensured that the newly-mixed American state could never form a racially-harmonious ethnic nation. The same process wrecked the ethnic composition of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and other applicable lands over the next century.

The model for the retrospective development of an American ethnic nation lies in South Africa. European settlers arrived in South Africa at the same time the French were colonizing New France, the English in New England, and the Dutch in New Netherland. The arrival of the Dutch, Huguenots, and Germans in 17th century South Africa, therefore, corresponds to, or even pre-dates, many of what are today recognized by us as old-stock Anglo-Americans. The difference is, a strong sense of identity and opposition to outside settlement and rule allowed the whites of South Africa to maintain their ethnic homogeneity, and today's Afrikaners are an example of what America and other Colonial lands might have attained had greater importance been placed on preservation within a cohesive group of ethnically-compatible Europeans.

[Kadu]

Certainly some form of an American identity exists in a civic sense, although that limited unity is almost exlusively in a cultural and linguistic sense.

You nailed down pretty well the concept of ethnicity, at least it's very valid for new world.

[SuuT]

True, but lets take for instance the difference in the quantity of accents between the UK and the USA.

What is the quantitative difference? I did some quick math in my head, and if you account for the relative size of each countries population as well as total area, I'm not seeing a remarkable quantitative difference in the number of accents (insofar as I know how many exist in each country). Anyway, what are you saying:confused2: - more accents equal ethnicity?


I remember driving through Colorado, Arizona, Nevada and Utah and besides the landscape and climate variations of course, everything was very similar, all towns had the same structure and there was definitely a lifestyle transversal to all those people.

Where did you go, though? What did you do? I know Colorado quite well. There are a billion little towns in that state that not only look but feel like something straight out of Europe. There is a town called "Monument" on the edge of Colorado Springs that comes to mind: All little boutique-like shops, locally owned and operated, festivals, European ethnic foods etc.etc. Indeed, downtown Colorado Springs, itself, has quite a 'Parisian' feel to it...But again, what are you saying? What is a "lifestyle transversal" in your mind and how does it relate to a lack of a strictly 'American' ethnicity?


Of course things were a bit different when i was in Northern Florida, but still structured in the same way.

This whole state is a haven for retards. They can't spell Ethnicity.

[Loyalist]

You nailed down pretty well the concept of ethnicity, at least it's very valid for new world.

Certainly not; a German-American and an African-American share no links beyond a (somewhat) common language, which does not equate to a common ethnicity, in a New World sense or otherwise. They are otherwise distinct genetically, socially, historically, and in virtually every other respect.

[SuuT]

...nationality/citizenship, ethnicity, identity and ancestry...

What I've noticed is that there is much confusion in the New World about all these concepts,

Your own use of the terms are all over the place and unclear, it has nothing to do with the New World; but rather everything to do with the very thin skin that holds the concepts, themselves, together.

[Allenson]

There are Hispanic "blacks" just as well as Anglo-American "blacks", like there are Hispanic "whites". In both cases, they are often mixed (the blacks, that is), and assimilated into different cultural and ethnic, and religious contexts; some of which are protestant, some of which are Catholic, etc.

In this sense, there are really distinctively Anglo-American blacks, and distinctively Hispanic ones. Denying it makes no sense; denying that there are divisions in the form of socio-racial subcultures makes no sense, either, and that is not what I am doing.

OK, I see what you mean here and yes, it makes sense. Although, this is precisely why language alone is not ethnically difinitive.

Slave descendent African-Americans really are an ethnicity unto themselves when the other important criteria of ethnicity are taken into account: biogrographical origins (race), culture and "folk experience".

[Comte Arnau]

Certainly not; a German-American and an African-American share no links beyond a (somewhat) common language

But that's the key. A German and a Yoruba are of different ethnicity. A "German American" and a "Nigerian American" are both of Anglic ethnicity, and they will both laugh at jokes that a German and a Nigerian won't catch.

[Kadu]

Anyway, what are you saying:confused2: - more accents equal ethnicity?

the nuances that Allenson was talking about. The UK has more nuances than the USA, that's what i was trying to say.



Where did you go, though? What did you do? I know Colorado quite well. There are a billion little towns in that state that not only look but feel like something straight out of Europe.

Glenwood springs, Grand junction, Fruita, Delta, Montrose, Silverton, Durango and Cortez. From Denver to the "four corners" lets say.
And i don't share your view that they look like straight out of Europe, far from that in fact.

[SuuT]

the nuances that Allenson was talking about. The UK has more nuances than the USA, that's what i was trying to say.

For example?


Glenwood springs, Grand junction, Fruita, Delta, Montrose, Silverton, Durango and Cortez. From Denver to the "four corners" lets say.
And i don't share your view that they look like straight out of Europe, far from that in fact.

You might start with the actual example I gave (which was Monument, in particular). However, of course a lot of the towns are not going to look European - they're not. For one, you visited a lot of desert towns. What I was illustrating was that your assay, besides being unclear, was fundamentally flawed insofar as your subtle indication that the America you have a first hand account of is a drone-like sameness. Is it more homoginised than Europe? Absolutely. But overall, you are not really saying anything.

I'm looking for objective impressions about what I have perceived about the lack of a clear and distinct American ethnicity relative to European ethnic bonds - not thinly veiled distaste and disdain for America(ns). You have your own forum as well as Stirpes (if its back up yet) and the whole of Europe to talk about that with.

[Goidelic]

OK, I see what you mean here and yes, it makes sense. Although, this is precisely why language alone is not ethnically difinitive.

Slave descendent African-Americans really are an ethnicity unto themselves when the other important criteria of ethnicity are taken into account: biogrographical origins (race), culture and "folk experience".

I definitely agree African-Americans are an ethnic group common to the New World. They have had varying degrees of European, Amerindian & West African ancestries/cultures integrated for generations that they're basically distinct from modern-day West African populations.

Though, I think some predominantly Sudanid looking "Afro-Americans" could assimilate into some West African regions - Ghana, Senegal, Gambia, Sierra Leone, Benin & ethnic groups there where most of their ancestry hails from, where they could raise children. On the other hand, most African-Americans are about 1/4 to 1/2 West African, generally it's not that way, plus most look distinct from West Africans only a few could assimilate I'd say.

A good example of an African-American ethnic group are the Gullah of South Carolina & Georgia: They have probably preserved their "West African" roots & culture more so than any other African-American ethnic group in the states.

"The Gullah language is related to Jamaican Creole, Barbadian Dialect, and the Krio language of Sierra Leone in West Africa. Gullah storytelling, foodways, music, folk beliefs, crafts, farming and fishing traditions, etc. all exhibit strong influences from West and Central African cultures."

http://www.npca.org/magazine/graphics/gullah.jpg

http://www.gullah.sc/workspaces/www/templates/domains/gullah.sc/images/BasketVendorBorder.jpg

http://discoverblackheritage.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/gullah-festival-298x300.jpg

http://www.stories4life.org/images/631_Gullah_Tales_with_Sharon_Murray.JPG

[Allenson]

I remember driving through Colorado, Arizona, Nevada and Utah and besides the landscape and climate variations of course, everything was very similar, all towns had the same structure and there was definitely a lifestyle transversal to all those people.
Of course things were a bit different when i was in Northern Florida, but still structured in the same way.

Oh sure, our micro, regional variations pale in comparison to those of Europe. I never meant to imply that they are on equal footing. Far from it--we are talking thousands of years versus hundreds of years. :coffee:

My point was that we are not nearly as homogenous, culturally speaking, as many "from away" like to paint us.

We are headed that way though. The advent of the mass-media has done a lot of damage to our regionalism and is doing it's best to smooth us all into one, bland-speaking package.

[Goidelic]

That is why I make a difference between nationality/citizenship, ethnicity, identity and ancestry.

To me, ethnicity is a cultural notion and as such, based on the cultural setting formed by a specific linguistic community. This is what shapes the basis of the way you understand the world, which is what makes an ethnic group distinct from the rest in the world. And this idea I keep, because it works regardless of other concepts like identity -which is very subjective- or ancestry -which is more a physical than a cultural thing.

That is why I think that the two guys you mentioned, born and grown in the same English-speaking setting, belong to the same ethnicity, even if they are different in any other aspect: biologically (ancestry/race), psychologically (identity) or politically (nationality/citizenship). I know this idea keeps me apart from most people in the forum.

Ok, fair enough ;), but what about the Scottish of Scotland & Irish in Ireland most just know different English accents & generally, they don't speak Gaelic as an official language, & some don't speak any of it. ;) I just disagree with you on the ethnicity notion. :)

That is because, even if in most cases ethnicity and identity coincide, some people can feel identified too with other ethnicities, with which they feel some special connection. I'd define that girl as of German ethnicity (specially if she doesn't speak Greek), even if she has a shared Greco-German identity. Now, if she speaks both languages perfectly and has enough cultural knowledge about her parents' homeland as to pass as a perfect Greek there, then we could talk about an example of a biethnic person.[/QUOTE]

This is interesting, I thought you'd consider her Greek. :p
I remember most of my German friends regarded her as Greek ;), but I think the biethnic status works as well. She spoke some Greek & fluent German. So I guess Greco-German is the one. ;)

Notice that I'm not meaning ethnicity = language. Immigration can erode someone's sense of belonging to an ethnic group, as the cultural connections get lost.[/QUOTE]

But I think you mentioned it was part of someone's ethnicity. That's why I pointed out the British Isles is an area where everyone speaks English, as well as in North America & Australia predominantly.

What I've noticed is that there is much confusion in the New World about all these concepts, to the point that race and even ethnicity have become synonymous of identity. That is why terms like 'Hispanic' are so misunderstood, for instance. (Just generalizing, I'm not saying this is your case at all!)[/QUOTE]

Well, it's generally ancestry & ethnicity become synonymous in the New World, but ethnicity for the most part is a combination of culture & language to a lesser extent ancestry for some.


I, on the contrary, value ethnicity more than ancestry. With this I mean that I do not care much about someone's ancestry as long as they get integrated into the ethnic group of that society. I'm obviously talking from a European perspective, I'm aware this subject is far more complicated in the 'New World'. :)[/QUOTE]

That's fine. I just value ancestry more. :)

[Loyalist]

But that's the key. A German and a Yoruba are of different ethnicity. A "German American" and a "Nigerian American" are both of Anglic ethnicity, and they will both laugh at jokes that a German and a Nigerian won't catch.

You are basing your definition of an ethnic identity on a similar sense of humor? I think it is reasonable for me to assume, then, that you are once again towing Kadu's line and claiming that a common culture is the key factor to a consequent ethnicity, which is total nonsense. Using your example, a Bavarian and a Berliner are not likely to appreciate the same type of jokes - they each have their own regional culture, and thus humour - but this does not change the fact that they are both German. They are German because they share a similar genetic, historical, social, regional, linguistic, and yes, cultural heritage. A European-American and African-American do not, and although they may have fallen out of the cultural fold, the former retain their European blood, and could be patriated to their ancestral homeland and be re-assimilated within a generation. The latter cannot; they would never belong in Europe, nor would they ever fit in as their aforementioned countrymen, as their ancestal home is Africa. Merely inhabiting the same borders and speaking the same language does not necessitate that a common ethnicity has been forged, and America is a prime example of that.

[Kadu]

For example?

Just compare the number of accents that exist in the UK, there are over fourty, and very distinct. Leaving alone the Celtic Languages of course.




You might start with the actual example I gave (which was Monument, in particular). However, of course a lot of the towns are not going to look European - they're not. For one, you visited a lot of desert towns. What I was illustrating was that your assay, besides being unclear, was fundamentally flawed insofar as your subtle indication that the America you have a first hand account of is a drone-like sameness. Is it more homoginised than Europe? Absolutely. But overall, you are not really saying anything.


It is in many ways, for instance you have in every town, the main strip with motels, than fast food restaurants, than with department stores and than the ramified residencial zones. Many of them looked exactly the same.
It's a model implemented over and over in different places, it's part of your identity and it's not bad per se.



I'm looking for objective impressions about what I have perceived about the lack of a clear and distinct American ethnicity relative to European ethnic bonds - not thinly veiled distaste and disdain for America(ns). You have your own forum as well as Stirpes (if its back up yet) and the whole of Europe to talk about that with.

You're not getting my point, i'm extremely fond of the USA and of the American people. In all my trips there i returned amazed and i still want to keep going there.
You revelead to be an unique country and very different from here Portugal(and the rest of Europe), i like your work ethics and the way in which individuals relate to the rest of the community where they live.
The way individuals can exercise their citizenship is also remarkable .

[Anthropos]

I think that American is an ethnicity. The USA is a cultural setting of its own, and that is quite significant. That cultural setting is not homogenous, but neither are other ethnicities.

[Goidelic]

I think that American is an ethnicity. The USA is a cultural setting of its own, and that is quite significant. That cultural setting is not homogenous, but neither are other ethnicities.

Would you say American is an ancestry? That's the real question. Well, I think the only "American" ancestry is Native American Indian :p;)

[Lutiferre]

Would you say American is an ancestry? That's the real question. :p;)
Yes, it could be. You can have an ancestor who is an American.

[Goidelic]

Yes, it could be. You can have an ancestor who is an American.

What do you mean by that Native American? ;):p

However the geographical population genetics of the "American individual" could be elsewhere rooted & certainly if it's an immigrant from Europe, just in terms of genome clustering with other populations abroad.

Even very Old Stock Anglo-Americans whose families have been here for 15-20 generations with some Amerindian ancestry even cluster in Europe, more specifically the British Isles NW European area & show genetic links there. They don't cluster in North American/Central Asia or any Mongoloid region of the world where they pull towards.

It would take hundreds of generations to become a completely new race/breeding isolate, strong selective pressures, geographical isolation to start seeing clustering on the North American continent for any of its populations.

Unless you're predominantly Native American you'll see genetic links for North & South America. It's pretty difficult to be the son of Irish immigrants in North America & have an "American ancestral" ancestor but it happens in rare genetic chances I suppose from another continent, just like any other historic invasion.

Amerindians even went to places in the British Isles, some left their genetic legacy rooted in some of the lineages. Most died off though of starvation, so we can say that there is some native "American" blood found in the British Isles on a low level. Though ancestrally they are more than predominantly British Isles in origin by now.

[Anthropos]

Would you say American is an ancestry? That's the real question. Well, I think the only "American" ancestry is Native American Indian :p;)

Point is, I don't think that is the question. An American of Swedish ancestry will not be recognised for Swedishness in Sweden, but as an American. People will likely not even reflect on his ancestry unless it is explicitly mentioned.

[Octothorpe]

"We've spawned a new race here, Mr. Dickinson. Rougher, simpler; more violent, more enterprising; less refined. We're a new nationality. We require a new nation." --The character of Ben Franklin in the musical/movie, 1776

Yep, that describes us, alright. :D

[Goidelic]

Point is, I don't think that is the question. An American of Swedish ancestry will not be recognised for Swedishness in Sweden, but as an American. People will likely not even reflect on his ancestry unless it is explicitly mentioned.

What about the phenotype will it look American if he's born to Swedish immigrnats? :confused:

[Goidelic]

"We've spawned a new race here, Mr. Dickinson. Rougher, simpler; more violent, more enterprising; less refined. We're a new nationality. We require a new nation." --The character of Ben Franklin in the musical/movie, 1776

Yep, that describes us, alright. :D

I wouldn't refer to British diaspora as a new race, rather "more fully amalgamated interancestral predominantly combined British Isles input" living as diaspora in the New World. This doesn't constitute a "new race" ;)

[Anthropos]

What about the phenotype will it look American if he's born to Swedish immigrnats? :confused:

People don't think about human phenotypes in real life. Not even American racists have much of any idea about it: hence all that focus on pigmentation, since it requires nothing more than the eye.

[Lutiferre]

What do you mean by that Native American? ;):p
No. I mean "American", and "America" is not even a nation that was founded by native Americans, it absorbed them.

I have a friend whose father is American. She has American ancestry for this reason. How hard is that to grasp exactly?

[Goidelic]

No. I mean "American", and "America" is not even a nation that was founded by native Americans, it absorbed them.

I have a friend whose father is American. She has American ancestry for this reason. How hard is that to grasp exactly?

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree on this Lutiferre. ;)

Well, I'd say the Native Americans must have founded something if they were here for thousands of years much longer, than most modern day European nations. Each Native American had its tribe, culture & language living under America.

But I can understand what you mean by American ethnicity, but not by "American ancestry." Ok, I understand that if you are 4th generation "American" but all 16 of your great-great-grandparents were German immigrants from the same region München, Bavaria say, the 8 great-grandparents would have American ancestry because they were born & lived in the U.S. whereas the "fathers" of them would be of German ancestry because they had lived in Germany hundreds of years later acquiring distinct populations genetics, culture, language, etc before immigrating to the New World?

If you were born in America & all four of your grandparents say were from Italy, the "ancestry" wouldn't be American, that's why we have haplogroups , European DNA tests & population clustering tests for those people, but the ethnicity could be, but that's another whole story. ;)

[Goidelic]

People don't think about human phenotypes in real life. Not even American racists have much of any idea about it: hence all that focus on pigmentation, since it requires nothing more than the eye.

What are you talking about, Swedes recognize phenotypes like Middle Easterners who don't look native to their nation, so I guess phenotypes must account for something. ;)

[Anthropos]

What are you talking about, Swedes recognize phenotypes like Middle Easterners who don't look native to their nation, so I guess phenotypes must account for something. ;)

An American of Middle Eastern ancestry is also an American in Sweden. People will hardly give his ancestry any more thought, considering all the American culture that they have seen, where Middle Eastern Americans aren't exactly an unusual sight.

[Andorran]

An American of Middle Eastern ancestry is also an American in Sweden. People will hardly give his ancestry any more thought, considering all the American culture that they have seen, where Middle Eastern Americans aren't exactly an unusual sight.

Quit talking out your ass. I'm sure people in your country aren't as blind as you claim.

And this quote of yours:

"People don't think about human phenotypes in real life. Not even American racists have much of any idea about it: hence all that focus on pigmentation, since it requires nothing more than the eye. "

What the hell are you talking about? Do you actually know "American racists" ? Have you been to the U.S.? Or are you another teenage keyboard jockeye just dispensing judgement with no real world experience?

I smell SPLC.

[Lutiferre]

Well, I'd say the Native Americans must have founded something if they were here for thousands of years much longer, than most modern day European nations. Each Native American had its tribe, culture & language living under America.
Yes, they founded "something", but they did not found the geopolitical (and geocultural) establishment known by the name of "America", itself a word from a language and culture alien to theirs, denoting an establishment by peoples alien to them.


But I can understand what you mean by American ethnicity, but not by "American ancestry." Ok, I understand that if you are 4th generation "American" but all 16 of your great-great-grandparents were German immigrants from the same region München, Bavaria say, the 8 great-grandparents would have American ancestry because they were born & lived in the U.S. whereas the "fathers" of them would be of German ancestry because they had lived in Germany hundreds of years later acquiring distinct populations genetics, culture, language, etc before immigrating to the New World?

If you were born in America & all four of your grandparents say were from Italy, the "ancestry" wouldn't be American, that's why we have haplogroups , European DNA tests & population clustering tests for those people, but the ethnicity could be, but that's another whole story. ;)
America is not an old nation, but my friends American father is nothing more or less than an American; hence, it is American ancestry for her.

It might not make sense for an American to speak of "American ancestry" in the context of having many ethnically different ancestors that all are Americans; but to the extent that they were "Americans", it applies there. To the extent they were not, then not so.

That is the always ambiguous nature of ethnicity. Such is life.

[Goidelic]

Yes, they founded "something", but they did not found the geopolitical (and geocultural) establishment known by the name of "America", itself a word from a language and culture alien to theirs, denoting an establishment by peoples alien to them.

America is not an old nation, but my friends American father is nothing more or less than an American; hence, it is American ancestry for her.

It might not make sense for an American to speak of "American ancestry" in the context of having many ethnically different ancestors that all are Americans; but to the extent that they were "Americans", it applies there. To the extent they were not, then not so.

That is the always ambiguous nature of ethnicity. Such is life.

Just out of curiosity, what is her mother, Danish?? :)

[Electronic God-Man]

An American of Middle Eastern ancestry is also an American in Sweden. People will hardly give his ancestry any more thought, considering all the American culture that they have seen, where Middle Eastern Americans aren't exactly an unusual sight.

I don't know about Sweden in particular but many Europeans still envision old stock Anglo-Americans when they think of an American. I even had a Sicilian friend of mine say that she didn't believe another friend of mine was American because her hair is too dark.

Likewise, even most Americans still think of White Americans (if not Anglo-Americans more specifically) when they think of an American.

[Lutiferre]

Just out of curiosity, what is her mother, Danish?? :)
Yes.

[Goidelic]

Yes.

Do you view her as a Dane? :);)

Also, what's your position on citizenship? I have Irish citizenship as well as the ancestry.

[Lutiferre]

Do you view her as a Dane? :);)

Also, what's your position on citizenship? I have Irish citizenship as well as the ancestry.
Yes, why not? She has grown up here and known nothing else and has a Danish mother.

[Goidelic]

Yes, why not? She has grown up here and known nothing else and has a Danish mother.

What if she had an African-American father (the father would still technically be "American") & the mother was Danish. Would you still regard her as a Dane?

[Lutiferre]

What if she had an African-American father (the father would still technically be "American") & the mother was Danish. Would you still regard her as a Dane?
That's a hypothetical scenario, which is not the scenario of the actual girl I know, so it depends on a few things: where she grow up, her identity and her fundamental ethnic and cultural loyalty. It certainly cannot be reduced to simply her biological qualities, even of they are part of the question. Unlike others, I recognise that ethnicity is a complex issue which transcends mere biological traits.

[Goidelic]

That's a hypothetical scenario, which is not the scenario of the actual girl I know, so it depends on a few things: where she grow up, her identity and her fundamental ethnic and cultural loyalty. It certainly cannot be reduced to simply her biological qualities, even of they are part of the question. Unlike others, I recognise that ethnicity is a complex issue which transcends mere biological traits.

Yes, but I mean just in general say if her father was Afro-American & her mother Danish, yet she spoke fluent Danish, grew up in Denmark, born & raised, her whole life, identified as a Dane, behaved as a Dane, & knew the history & culture extremely well to put other Danes to shame, would you still consider her a Dane despite showing some Negro Quadroonish/Octoroonish biological facial traits? :);)

[Lutiferre]

Yes, but I mean just in general say if her father was Afro-American & her mother Danish, yet she spoke fluent Danish, grew up in Denmark, born & raised, her whole life, identified as a Dane, behaved as a Dane, & knew the history & culture extremely well to put other Danes to shame, would you still consider her a Dane despite showing some Negro Quadroonish/Octoroonish biological facial traits? :);)

As much a Dane as the other half-American, most likely, yes, even if her skin colour more obviously testified to her foreign half of ancestry.

[Comte Arnau]

Ok, fair enough ;), but what about the Scottish of Scotland & Irish in Ireland most just know different English accents & generally, they don't speak Gaelic as an official language, & some don't speak any of it. ;)

Well, in that case, they may be Scottish or Irish in a political, identitatian and ancestral way, but are not Gaelic by ethnicity. To me, they are either Scottish Anglic or Irish Anglic.


But I think you mentioned it was part of someone's ethnicity. That's why I pointed out the British Isles is an area where everyone speaks English, as well as in North America & Australia predominantly.

Aha. And all of them are Anglic. Aren't all those who speak Spanish called Hispanic, even if of different races/backgrounds/nationalities/cultures?

The problem with ethnicities like Anglic or Hispanic is that they have spread so much internationally and mixed/received so many influences that they have almost become meta-ethnicities.


You are basing your definition of an ethnic identity on a similar sense of humor? I think it is reasonable for me to assume, then, that you are once again towing Kadu's line and claiming that a common culture is the key factor to a consequent ethnicity, which is total nonsense.

I already gave my definition before in this thread. The sense of humour is not even similar between two people of the same ethnicity, btw. My example was about the fact that a linguistic community implies a determinate culture sprung from the expression and interaction of the members of that community and their way of seeing the world, and that is what will distinguish them culturally from the rest of ethnic groups in the world. It is not only language, and it is not only culture. When you study the way people have grouped and identified with each other in history most of the times, it is not because they were all blondes, or because they examined each other's blood, but because they understood each other: affinity in language and culture (this including religion, at least in the past).


Using your example, a Bavarian and a Berliner are not likely to appreciate the same type of jokes - they each have their own regional culture, and thus humour - but this does not change the fact that they are both German.

Bavaria would make more sense joined with Austria, since they're closer from an ethnolinguistic POV. I'm not going to repeat now that it is not about joke appreciation, which is almost personal. Besides, I never said ethnicity was a fixed thing. That is why people use things like 'subethnicity' or 'metaethnicity', because people are conscious both of their regional differences and of their affinities with close ethnic groups.


They are German because they share a similar genetic, historical, social, regional, linguistic, and yes, cultural heritage.

In Europe (and the Old World in general), it is easy for an ethnic group to consist not only of what is the main basis for it -the linguistic/cultural unity- but of all the other elements that give coherency to a community: a traditional territory, and therefore, a common history and a genetic continuation. I have never meant that all those things weren't important, and that is what gives the impression indeed that the precolonial world is more ethnically coherent. But we are living in a different world.


A European-American and African-American do not,

For most Europeans, they're both Americans.


and although they may have fallen out of the cultural fold, the former retain their European blood, and could be patriated to their ancestral homeland and be re-assimilated within a generation. The latter cannot; they would never belong in Europe

Well, all that paragraph just means that you give a great importance to the racial difference.


nor would they ever fit in as their aforementioned countrymen, as their ancestal home is Africa.

An African-American, born and raised in the US, will feel totally out of place in Africa too, even if he thinks he belongs by some ancestral connection. He may share ancestry and may want to identify with, but his ethnicity will not be Manding or whatever. Remember we were discussing ethnicity, nor ancestry.


Merely inhabiting the same borders and speaking the same language does not necessitate that a common ethnicity has been forged, and America is a prime example of that.

There is an obvious de facto language and culture in the United States, and it is not the Manding one.

[Treffie]

Just compare the number of accents that exist in the UK, there are over fourty, and very distinct. Leaving alone the Celtic Languages of course.



I think you could add a zero to that number if we included all the areas of the UK :)

There are probably about 40 main accents, but there are many other accents which tend to blend into each other in one way or another.

[Grey]

Well, all that paragraph just means that you give a great importance to the racial difference.

...

An African-American, born and raised in the US, will feel totally out of place in Africa too, even if he thinks he belongs by some ancestral connection. He may share ancestry and may want to identify with, but his ethnicity will not be Manding or whatever. Remember we were discussing ethnicity, nor ancestry.

Blacks in America have an entire culture of their own. Even in places that are "desegregated" blacks stick around other blacks and whites stick around other whites. They have their own music, manner of speaking, literature, neighborhoods, religious views, philosophies, and ways of life. There's a reason why many blacks can't recognize even the most prominent white celebrities and vice versa.

They are not ethnically American because they do not adopt American culture; rather, Americans are adopting theirs. I don't give a fuck whether or not they'd fit in back in Africa, they don't belong here. It's not our job to worry about them being assimilable anywhere else.

[Treffie]

Blacks in America have an entire culture of their own. Even in places that are "desegregated" blacks stick around other blacks and whites stick around other whites. They have their own music, manner of speaking, literature, neighborhoods, religious views, philosophies, and ways of life. There's a reason why many blacks can't recognize even the most prominent white celebrities and vice versa.

They are not ethnically American because they do not adopt American culture; rather, Americans are adopting theirs. I don't give a fuck whether or not they'd fit in back in Africa, they don't belong here. It's not my our to worry about them being assimilable anywhere else.

Doesn't make a diiference to Europeans, they see all of them as Americans - usually as soon as they open their mouth.

[Comte Arnau]

Blacks in America have an entire culture of their own. Even in places that are "desegregated" blacks stick around other blacks and whites stick around other whites. They have their own music, manner of speaking, literature, neighborhoods, religious views, philosophies, and ways of life.

That is a subculture at most, not a culture. That works at the identity level, not at the ethnicity one. I am quite convinced that the whole black population in America doesn't share that same identity, anyway.


They are not ethnically American because they do not adopt American culture;

By American you mean any Native ethnicity or the Anglic one?


rather, Americans are adopting theirs.

Another evidence that this is about identity, not ethnicity. You don't change of ethnicity that easily. But you can choose those cultural elements you want to identify with.


I don't give a fuck whether or not they'd fit in back in Africa, they don't belong here. It's not our job to worry about them being assimilable anywhere else.

People always belong somewhere.

[Grey]

That is a subculture at most, not a culture. That works at the identity level, not at the ethnicity one. I am quite convinced that the whole black population in America doesn't share that same identity, anyway.

I don't mean to sound like a simpleminded racist, but you'd be surprised at how much (very nearly) all blacks here are the same.




By American you mean any Native ethnicity or the Anglic one?


The only ethnicity which has more or less united the country. The natives (I would have thought) would constitute maybe a meta-ethnicity, but not a single ethnicity.




Another evidence that this is about identity, not ethnicity. You don't change of ethnicity that easily. But you can choose those cultural elements you want to identify with.


If ethnicity doesn't change so easily, then why would they be considered American rather than African? At what point would their black identity become an ethnicity then?



People always belong somewhere.

That doesn't mean they belong here.

[Anthropos]

I don't know about Sweden in particular but many Europeans still envision old stock Anglo-Americans when they think of an American. I even had a Sicilian friend of mine say that she didn't believe another friend of mine was American because her hair is too dark.

Likewise, even most Americans still think of White Americans (if not Anglo-Americans more specifically) when they think of an American.

First of all, this is not a discussion about immigration policy, citizenship or nationality, and it is not a normative discussion about those things even if you can retort that all these things are connected. Everything is connected, there's no denying that from my end, but ethnicity is a loose concept, hence all the difficulties defining it. It's a concept that changes as the world changes. Ethnicity is something rather elusive, and in the world of today it is more elusive still than it was just a few hundred years ago.

As someone has already noted earlier in this discussion, and I think that was Ibex, the direct confusion of ethnicity with ancestry or race is chiefly an American or in any case a colonial confusion. Someone even implied that DNA should be the determinant of ethnicity, but such a gross simplification need not be taken too seriously. The confusion of ethnicity with race did also play a part in the writings of many European mainstream intellectuals from the 19th century onwards, but it has gone out of style, so to speak. Race may be one factor listed among many others in 'definitions' of what ethnicity is, but there are still cases in which it does hardly matter, simply because ancestry and race do not follow the same borders nor the same basic 'laws' as ethnicities.

Your sicilian friend is something of an exception, since Sicilians, on an average i.e., are darker than many other Europeans, and less modern in their outlook than many other Europeans. That is not to say that they are less European, not at all, rather the contrary perhaps, but the colour of someone's hair - an American in the case you mentioned - is a poor standard of ancestry anyway.

[SuuT]

Just compare the number of accents that exist in the UK, there are over fourty, and very distinct. Leaving alone the Celtic Languages of course.

That's interesting as trivia (I hadn't known that, either: I would have supposed the 20 or so I have heard and added 10 for good measure), but I'm struggling to see how it relates to the lack of a definitive ethnicity in America; or what the contrast says about America.



It is in many ways, for instance you have in every town, the main strip with motels, than fast food restaurants, than with department stores and than the ramified residencial zones. Many of them looked exactly the same. It's a model implemented over and over in different places, it's part of your identity and it's not bad per se.

It may be part of the 'American' identity as you see it, but stripmalls and the replication of successful business models and residential ordering have little to do with me. At any rate, this stikes me as more of the relative youth of America coupled with the influx - and timing of the influx - of corporatism and multinational conglomerations slipping in under the American artifice. Which doesn't, imo, capture 'ethnic level' considerations...indeed, we would be taking more about non-human entities than the so-called 'American'.




i'm extremely fond of the USA and of the American people. In all my trips there i returned amazed and i still want to keep going there.
You revelead to be an unique country and very different from here Portugal(and the rest of Europe), i like your work ethics and the way in which individuals relate to the rest of the community where they live.
The way individuals can exercise their citizenship is also remarkable .

:D Why do you keep using these 2nd person pronouns:confused2:?

...Ethnicity seems to hinge predominantly, if not entirely, upon geographical location for you.




I think that American is an ethnicity. The USA is a cultural setting of its own, and that is quite significant. That cultural setting is not homogenous, but neither are other ethnicities.

As near as I can gather, due to the unique dynamic of the American historical experience, "race" has become an intregal fundament in (x)ethnic division. Which itself, shows unique expressions in the disparate cultural milieu. It's really shown in this thread, actually, in the way that the Eurpoean participants are talking right past colonials and v. versa. Ne'er the two shall meet minds...?


Doesn't make a diiference to Europeans, they see all of them as Americans - usually as soon as they open their mouth.

:D Oh stop it: Americans are born with that Yank look on their face - no need to speak. :D



, the direct confusion of ethnicity with ancestry or race is chiefly an American or in any case a colonial confusion.

I think the conflation works symbiotically as part of the afore mentioned loose North American Identity. I'm not sure it's out of per se confusion; but out of dynamic necessity.

[Comte Arnau]

The only ethnicity which has more or less united the country.

Aha. You are saying right now what I have been saying all the time: there is one ethnicity that has united the country, and this is the Anglic one. Just like the Hispanic one did south of the Rio Grande.


If ethnicity doesn't change so easily, then why would they be considered American rather than African? At what point would their black identity become an ethnicity then?

American, African or European are not ethnicities. I guessed you mean, why would they be considered American Anglic, and not an African one? Well, maybe because their language is not an African one, but either (American) English or a sociolect of it, and their cultural context is not Sub-Saharan Africa, but the USA, even if they identify with a specific subculture within this ethnicity.


That doesn't mean they belong here.

Well, that's an opinion and I don't feel like giving mine now about American affairs, when Europe is my first concern in this forum. I just wonder if Natives think that either blacks or whites belong there.

[Allenson]

Yes, why not? She has grown up here and known nothing else and has a Danish mother.

OK. And then.......


That's a hypothetical scenario, which is not the scenario of the actual girl I know, so it depends on a few things: where she grow up, her identity and her fundamental ethnic and cultural loyalty. It certainly cannot be reduced to simply her biological qualities, even of they are part of the question. Unlike others, I recognise that ethnicity is a complex issue which transcends mere biological traits.

..........Sweet sidestep! ;)

For the record, I wouldn't consider this hypothetical woman to be a Dane. To me, she'd simply be half Danish in ancestry.

[Electronic God-Man]

As someone has already noted earlier in this discussion, and I think that was Ibex, the direct confusion of ethnicity with ancestry or race is chiefly an American or in any case a colonial confusion. Someone even implied that DNA should be the determinant of ethnicity, but such a gross simplification need not be taken too seriously.

You can't be of the same ethnicity if, by and large, two different races see themselves as different people. It would be exceedingly rare if any one was able to find an African-American who had no qualms with being lumped together with a European-American under the same ethnicity.


Your sicilian friend is something of an exception, since Sicilians, on an average i.e., are darker than many other Europeans, and less modern in their outlook than many other Europeans. That is not to say that they are less European, not at all, rather the contrary perhaps, but the colour of someone's hair - an American in the case you mentioned - is a poor standard of ancestry anyway.

Sicilians are less modern, so perhaps so. Then again, Western Europeans are inundated with false images of what the US is because they get most of their ideas about it from television.

Regardless, the majority of Americans will not consider African-Americans and European-Americans, for example, to be of the same ethnic group. That's not an arbitrary conclusion based on skin-color and a misunderstanding of what ethnicity is. African-Americans would have a very good case to be considered an ethnicity of their own. Many do not see other Black Africans as being one of them. Take the debate in the Black community over whether or not Obama is "Black" for example.

Some European members here are trying to encompass all African-Americans and European-Americans together under one ethnic group. No American would do that. You'd be hard-pressed to find a level-headed American who would agree with this. If I understand correctly it's almost like some sort of Brazilian situation being talked about. One general culture, history, feeling of belonging, even if they do have many different "races" and every mix in between.

If we take, say, an old stock Anglo-American and an African-American traveling in Europe. It's very likely that Europeans will see them both as "American" in that they are both US citizens, not to mention that fact that both have a long history in America. But would they see them as being of the same ethnicity? ...the idea is so ridiculous to me that I don't know what to say other than that no American would ever agree. I would have to assume that any European that would say that is incredibly confused about the real situation in the US. Can two groups with separate identities, cultures, histories, bloodlines, and one could argue even language in many cases be of one and the same ethnicity?

[Anthropos]

As near as I can gather, due to the unique dynamic of the American historical experience, "race" has become an intregal fundament in (x)ethnic division. Which itself, shows unique expressions in the disparate cultural milieu. It's really shown in this thread, actually, in the way that the Eurpoean participants are talking right past colonials and v. versa. Ne'er the two shall meet minds...?



I think the conflation works symbiotically as part of the afore mentioned loose North American Identity. I'm not sure it's out of per se confusion; but out of dynamic necessity.

I agree with that, and Americans have more right to an opinion than I have when it is Americans that the discussion really concerns. Given however the European focus of The Apricity, I don't think it is suitable for American usage of terms to assert itself too much; that happens far too often everywhere else. Americans needn't tip on their toes, that's not what I mean, but I think it's much better to debate differences than to pretend that we're all in the same boat.

Reducing ethnicity to race makes no sense, and neither does reducing it to language. Both things matter, but they are not even comparable things on equal terms, since you can't change your race, whereas you can learn a language. In my opinion, that's not however a ground for saying that ethnicity is more about race than about culture. Americans who have lived in Sweden for many years do still retain their Americanness in most cases.

There is also another aspect of ethnicity in general that I touched upon earlier. With culture declining remarkably, Swedes become less Swedish than they used to be, in my opinion. Focusing too much on race is not going to help that, and it might even accelerate that development, since Whiteness would work much more as a green card for 'Whites' to have their share of the cake than as a principle of exclusion. Even if the public debate is presently very anti-race I would even say that this is the way it already works in the 'free media' and in other highly infuential 'intellectual' sectors of society: People who have an obvious foreign background tend to have a markedly different angle of approach to things (unless they were adopted and raised Swedish, of course). 'Whites', on the other hand, can play much more directly on whatever false consensus our medialised culture creates, even if that consensus is artificial rather than typical of anything really Swedish. That does not concern American immigrants any more than Dutch immigrants, but it's another example of how complicated ethnicity is.

[Anthropos]

Some European members here are trying to encompass all African-Americans and European-Americans together under one ethnic group. No American would do that. You'd be hard-pressed to find a level-headed American who would agree with this. If I understand correctly it's almost like some sort of Brazilian situation being talked about. One general culture, history, feeling of belonging, even if they do have many different "races" and every mix in between.

The situation in Brazil is rather similar, wouldn't you say, except that the numbers are different?

I haven't tried to lump different things together though: I'm just sharing my point of view. It may be that it is entirely irrelevant to your reality, but it isn't entirely irrelevant for the sake of communicating like this. To many Europeans it doesn't come off as very genuine when some Americans pretend to have a European ethnicity instead of 'American'. So it could be equally well said that Americans don't really have a grasp on Europe, just as Europeans don't have one on America.

[Electronic God-Man]

The situation in Brazil is rather similar, wouldn't you say, except that the numbers are different?

LOL!


I haven't tried to lump different things together though: I'm just sharing my point of view. It may be that it is entirely irrelevant to your reality, but it isn't entirely irrelevant for the sake of communicating like this. To many Europeans it doesn't come off as very genuine when some Americans pretend to have a European ethnicity instead of 'American'. So it could be equally well said that Americans don't really have a grasp on Europe, just as Europeans don't have one on America.

I would consider myself old stock American. Most Blacks here would consider themselves African-American or some other wording meaning the same.

The two will not consider each other as the same ethnicity, however.

[Lutiferre]

OK. And then.......



..........Sweet sidestep! ;)

For the record, I wouldn't consider this hypothetical woman to be a Dane. To me, she'd simply be half Danish in ancestry.

What does your opinion matter? Not to be rude, but you are not the arbiter of ethnic identity, especially not in Denmark. You are trying to prescribe it, which you simply can't, whereas I was simply describing reality.

Besides, I've already said:

[She would be] as much a Dane as the other half-American, most likely, yes, even if her skin colour more obviously testified to her foreign half of ancestry.
Both would have a non-Danish heritage, obviously, and the only difference is that one skin colour makes it more apparent than the other, if they were both grown up in Denmark.

[Anthropos]

LOL!

In an abstract sense that is. Different races gathered from different parts of the world, sharing some kind of ethnicity, but oftentimes still divided into different communities and so on.

[Barreldriver]

Here is my view:

I believe that there is no single unified American ethnicity as certain American sub-populations, and even at an individual level, have different proportions in regards to their ancestral background and familial cultural origins. I had an interesting discussion today with a good feller at uni. Somehow we got onto the topic of Americans and ethnic identities, basically we had discussed how most Americans, at least those within the suburbs and the cities were typically more consumed by industry and material gain rather than having a focus on an ethnic identity, however we concluded that in the more rural areas traditional ethnic ties tend to exist more often due to the deep need for familial unification and being surrounded by a less diverse sub-population, it was also noted that certain ghetto populations, in particular those inhabited by more recent immigrants, were more prone to ethnic ties than the more general city dwellers.

I used myself as an example in this conversation, I had mentioned how as an American that grew up in Appalachia with a strong familial root in the region, and belonged to a relatively simple ancestral background (approximately 7/8th's British Isle's, and 1/8th Continental European), was able to preserve a more ethnic identity due to the Appalachian region having a unique culture that is quite obviously based on similar ancestral proportions, these proportions differing in certain regions of Appalachia, the region where I was raised had a breakdown most similar to that of my own, I also noted that due to this we are separate in a sense from the general American as we rely on heavily traditional patrilineal values as opposed to bilateral or double descent, or in a lot of cases just a sole nuclear unit, our culture, inheritance, and ethnicity are all transmitted via paternal lineage, no exceptions, and we have maintained a degree of preservation of this tradition throughout the history of the United States. We even have a sort of clan system and familial alliance system, our clan is rooted in the branches of our paternal lineage, while our alliances encompass our most close collateral relations (by blood or marriage) we have a strict concept of cut one and they all bleed. My family is currently in a situation that is reminiscent of old clan infighting where the cut one and they all bleed concept was not just applied to outside intrusion or attack, but by internal attack/betrayal.

[Allenson]

What does your opinion matter? Not to be rude, but you are not the arbiter of ethnic identity, especially not in Denmark. You are trying to prescribe it, which you simply can't, whereas I was simply describing reality.

Besides, I've already said:

Both would have a non-Danish heritage, obviously, and the only difference is that one skin colour makes it more apparent than the other, if they were both grown up in Denmark.


I was just pointing out that when this hypothetical woman was half Dane but all "white" you were more OK with it than when she was described as half Dane, half black American. Meaning, it might be easier to accept her as a Dane if she fits in with the indigenous racial condition whereas if she were mullato, not so much. :cool:

Clearly, my opinion doesn't matter in the slightest--and, neither does yours regarding America. It's rare that you read me opining about the conditions in Europe as I do not live there. I appreciate the same in return...and yet many Europeans, yourself included, seem fine with opining to wit's end about America. :confused: ;)

Don't sweat it, dude.

[Lutiferre]

I was just pointing out that when this hypothetical woman was half Dane but all "white" you were more OK with it than when she was described as half Dane, half black American. Meaning, it might be easier to accept her as a Dane if she fits in with the indigenous racial condition whereas if she were mullato, not so much. :cool:
I was not "more OK" with it; I was simply reluctant to comment on a "hypothetical girl" who I don't know.


Clearly, my opinion doesn't matter in the slightest--and, neither does yours regarding America. It's rare that you read me opining about the conditions in Europe as I do not live there. I appreciate the same in return...and yet many Europeans, yourself included, seem fine with opining to wit's end about America. :confused: ;)
My point wasn't that you cannot describe the way things are - here or elsewhere - if you want. But you cannot prescribe it, is all I wanted to say, neither can I. No offense implied.

[Liffrea]

I personally don’t consider “American” as an ethnic identity, not anymore, perhaps up until the mid 19th century the largely English descendent population could be considered to be an ethnic identity, an off shoot of old England as it were…..that’s long gone. America is really just a state held loosely together by “ideas” and not much more. I’m interested in seeing how long that monster can continue to walk, I don’t give it very long. In fact you might argue “America” has been tottering almost since the rebellion/revolution, an argument for another time perhaps….

As for Euro-Americans it’s not my place to decide how they see themselves, the USA is still just about as segregated as it was in the 1960’s and is, according to some, the most segregated state outside of South Africa, clearly “America” means different things to different people’s. Fifty years from now will America be a ruin fractured around newly emerging racial and ethnic homelands? I wouldn’t bet against it, the UK may well be joining them….

[SwordoftheVistula]

The situation in Brazil is rather similar, wouldn't you say, except that the numbers are different?


In an abstract sense that is. Different races gathered from different parts of the world, sharing some kind of ethnicity, but oftentimes still divided into different communities and so on.

Somewhat, and parts of the US seem to be moving more towards the Brazilian model. The difference is that the default 'Brazilian' if one conjures an image in one's head is of a mixed race individual, whereas the default 'American' is an English/British/northwest European individual. Whether or not someone is considered truly 'American' is determined by whether or not they can fit perfectly into Anglo society.

[lei.talk]

"...I was simply reluctant to comment on a 'hypothetical girl' who I don't know."
Cēterīs paribus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceteris_paribus) is a Latin phrase, literally translated as "with other things the same," or "all other things being equal or held constant." It is commonly rendered in English as "all other things being equal." A prediction, or a statement about causal or logical connections between two states of affairs, is qualified by ceteris paribus in order to acknowledge, and to rule out, the possibility of other factors that could override the relationship between the antecedent and the consequent.

[Lutiferre]

"...I was simply reluctant to comment on a 'hypothetical girl' who I don't know."
But this is just metaphysical nonsense. It's an imaginary world, an alternate universe. In reality, everything else would not be all the same, because there is noone else who is all the same.

[Crimson Guard]

Well its a bit complicated. There is politics and perhaps some old nationalism, xenophobia and racism involved. The USA is not the only 'America' either. North America alone is a landmass, a continent, which Europeans immigrated to colonize and thrive..but they arent "native" to it since they migrated here during the 1400's and created new states . North America alone is composed of over 20 nations.


"Native-American I have a problem with Amerindians arent the only natives as once person born on this soil is a technically a native. But today if you use the term Native-American, it obviously implies an American Indian. "North-American" doesnt work, since Mexicans are also North-Americans. *African I have a problem with also because not all Africans are Black, and Caucasoid are indigenous to Africa as well since they been there for over 15,000 years and perhaps originated there over 50,000 years ago. Moreover Africa in Roman times, only meant roughly what is North Africa. It never meant Negroes, that only occurred later on ion modern times and Colonial Europeans.

Canadians and Mexicans are Americans, but nobody says this, as there is no term for people from the USA other than simply 'American'. There is no USA-ians or USA-ish or whatever.

Regarding the USA, American is really anybody naturalized and born in the Americas when they immigrated from Europe since Cristoforo Colombo paved the way under the Spanish flag.

But American cannot be simply used for one ethnic type. The English or White Anglo Saxon Protestants have no specific rights to that name. Years ago they may thought so perhaps and the term 'Old American" was in usage(image below). But that was when they wanted to curb immigration from certain parts of Europe and mainly an old hold over from the elitist mentality of the upper class bourgeois of the original 13 Colonies.



http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/oldamericantype.jpg

The crux of the matter though is ethnocentrism and racial politics. It goes back to the old mindset and social atmosphere in the days of Benjamin Franklin (whose father was from Northamptonshire and whose mother was the descendant of English immigrants who fled the persecution of Protestants early in the 17th century). Here is a guy that did not consider Germans, Swedes,Italians, Russians or French to be White. How ridiculous.


4. Which leads me to add one Remark: That the Number of purely white People in the World is proportionally very small. All Africa is black or tawny. Asia chiefly tawny. America (exclusive of the new Comers) wholly so. And in Europe, the Spaniards, Italians, French, Russians and Swedes, are generally of what we call a swarthy Complexion; as are the Germans also, the Saxons only excepted, who with the English, make the principal Body of White People on the Face of the Earth. I could wish their Numbers were increased. And while we are, as I may call it, Scouring our Planet, by clearing America of Woods, and so making this Side of our Globe reflect a brighter Light to the Eyes of Inhabitants in Mars or Venus, why should we in the Sight of Superior Beings, darken its People? why increase the Sons of Africa, by Planting them in America, where we have so fair an Opportunity, by excluding all Blacks and Tawneys, of increasing the lovely White and Red? But perhaps I am partial to the Complexion of my Country, for such Kind of Partiality is natural to Mankind.-Observations Concerning the Increase of Mankind, Peopling of Countries, &c.- Benjamin Franklin-


So are we therefore to suppose those people cannot be Americans because they arent "Anglo-Saxon" or "White" based on such a ignorant ideals?!

The reality is, the Italian, Frenchman, Spaniard, Englishman, Irishman or German ect are all American once they moved here and became legal citizens. Funny thing for people that dont consider certain European ethnic groups as "true Americans" or some silly ass shit like that, is that maybe they dont realize that their named after an Italian by the name Amerigo Vespucci. And be thankfull the West Indies didnt stick, otherwise we'd all be referred to as Indians or West Indians.;)

[Electronic God-Man]

^ Fuck you, dago. :coffee:

You have little idea of what it is to be an American here since colonial times....and I can tell you are a WOP just by the way you write. :wink

[Kadu]

^ Fuck you, dago. :coffee:

You have little idea of what it is to be an American here since colonial times....and I can tell you are a WOP just by the way you write. :wink

Oh it seems that you haven't read what i posted this morning.
I'm a nice guy and therefore i'll quote some passages to spice up your curiousity. ;)


Why did Anglo-Protestant Americans assume the mantle of nativism? This seems like a straightforward question, but it is not. First of all, as some have suggested, the term "nativism" is a misnomer, and has been as much a didactic tool as a hermeneutic device.4
In fact, native residence served merely as a shorthand for membership in the dominant national ethnic group. "Sometimes, nativists found the native-born 'foreign' and immigrants suitably American," remarks Dale Knobel.5 Indeed, Anglo-Protestant Americans barely blinked at British (and Anglo-Canadian) Protestant immigration, yet native-born Catholics were hardly immune from nativism. "Ethno-nationalism" or "dominant ethnicity" is therefore a more accurate description for what passes for nativism.



In the case of the United States, the national ethnic group was Anglo-American Protestant ("American"). This was the first European group to "imagine" the territory9 of the United States as its homeland and trace its genealogy back to New World colonists who rebelled against their mother country. In its mind, the American nation-state, its land, its history, its mission and its Anglo-American people were woven into one great tapestry of the imagination. This social construction considered the United States to be founded by the "Americans", who thereby had title to the land and the mandate to mould the nation (and any immigrants who might enter it) in their own Anglo-Saxon, Protestant self-image.


The Acadians' language and religion made them pariahs in the American colonies, where they were, nearly irrespective of location, forced into indentured servitude and reduced to extreme poverty. Roughly a third died of disease and exposure, prompting the rest to migrate, after a sojourn in France, to Catholic, French-speaking Louisiana during 1765-85.


Typically, the romantic nationalist views the present as an age of decline and seeks to use the myth of an idealized past to revive the virtues which were seen to characterize the national ethnic group during its Golden Age.79 The nostalgia that pervaded the writing of many midnineteenth century Americans may thus be considered a form of romantic yearning for a purer, more "natural" Golden Age Republic. It was this nostalgia which was to fire the ethnic nationalist phenomenon known as nativism which later came to grip the land.



The American case betrays many of the same features that characterize other ethnic groups. These include: a sense of election (Puritan), a myth of exclusive genealogical descent (Anglo-Saxon), a set of cultural boundary markers ('WASP'), a process of dominant-conformity (anglo-conformity), an association with a specific territory (United States/Frontier), a lifestyle representation (Yeoman) and a communal Golden Age (Jefferson's Republic) to which the group seeks to return. Together, these elements formed the myth-symbol complex of the "American" ethnie. This ethnic structure, once crystallized, decisively shaped the reactions of the American nation for a over a century.



The anglocentric America that actually emerged might instead have developed as a more pluralistic society, like that found in present-day Mauritius or Trinidad, where no acknowledged founding group exists. Scholars have often ignored the role of national ethnicity in the American case, believing that the nativism of an exceptional nation requires an exceptional explanation. Hopefully this oversight can now be corrected.

Source:http://www.bbk.ac.uk/polsoc/staff/academic/eric-kaufmann/wasp-reconsidered

[Goidelic]

The guy looks British/English. I'd classify him as Borreby/Bruenn rather than an "Old White American Stock" for his phenotype.

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/oldamericantype.jpg

[Allenson]

Oh it seems that you haven't read what i posted this morning.
I'm a nice guy and therefore i'll quote some passages to spice up your curiousity. ;)

I've read this before Kadu and intended to reply to your thread on this paper. But here is fine too. :)

Anyway, it's a good paper--well written except for this one line:


Prior to the American Revolution, the United States.........

Of course there was no United States prior to the Revolution. :cool:

But again, it's a good paper and I feel it covers the issue well, detailing facts without extraneous commentary, it reads rather neutral for the most part--neither defending nor attacking American Nativism and pretty much tells it as it was.

The author is mildy criticizing in his conclusion but even this doesn't strike me as particularly scathing--merely speculative.

What I take most from this paper, is the 'naturalness' of ethnic formation and identity, regardless of the locale that it occurs in. It tells me that our experience here is nothing new under the sun and that it should come as no surprise to anyone that the Anglo-Saxoness of American became the dominant cultural paradigm before, and, during the decades immediately following Independence. It was, afterall, Anglo-Americans who were the most numerous contributor to our early genepool, memepool and those who framed the Republic to begin with.

And now in modern America, it's sort of like, we built the house, then everyone else moved in and started wagging their fingers at us for the way it was built, all the while, their feet are on the coffee table and they've just helped themselves to our beer without asking. ;)

[Kadu]

And now in modern America, it's sort of like, we built the house

The house is still being built, it's a continuous process.


and they've just helped themselves to our beer without asking. ;)

It's everybody's beer. ;)

[Allenson]

The house is still being built, it's a continuous process.

My daily observations tell me that it is being torn down, also a continuous process. Ah, my heart for the Golden Age! ;)


It's everybody's beer. ;)

Oh? Maybe I'll organize a few thousand Yanks and we'll come to Portugal, settle, and drink yours then. :icon_drunk:

[Kadu]

My daily observations tell me that it is being torn down, also a continuous process. Ah, my heart for the Golden Age! ;)

Fire Jose and then see what happens! No Joses, no one to do your dirty jobs!



Oh? Maybe I'll organize a few thousand Yanks and we'll come to Portugal, settle, and drink yours then. :icon_drunk:

Portugal isn't a land of immigrants as the New World is per definition(intrinsic to its nature), but even so i welcome those who come here to help us building our country, feel free to come here if you wish so.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Fire Jose and then see what happens! No Joses, no one to do your dirty jobs!

Easy solution, get rid of welfare at the same time, and all those people can do the dirty jobs instead. That's who used to do those jobs, along with students, and having them start doing those jobs again would help build their work ethic and make the country much better in the long run.


Interesting related news article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33603511/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/?GT1=43001

As soon as Mebrahtom Keflezighi , better known as Meb, won the New York City Marathon on Sunday, an uncommon sports dispute erupted online, fraught with racial and nationalistic components: Should Keflezighi’s triumph count as an American victory?

He was widely celebrated as the first American to win the New York race since 1982. Having immigrated to the United States at age 12, he is an American citizen and a product of American distance running programs at the youth, college and professional levels.

But, some said, because he was born in Eritrea, he is not really an American runner.
The debate reveals what some academics say are common assumptions and stereotypes about race and sports and athletic achievement in the United States. Its dimensions, they add, go beyond the particulars of Keflezighi and bear on undercurrents of nationalism and racism that are not often voiced.

“Race is still extremely important when you think about athletics,” said David Wiggins, a professor at George Mason University who studies African-Americans and sports. “There is this notion about innate physiological gifts that certain races presumably possess. Quite frankly, I think it feeds into deep-seated stereotypes. The more blatant forms of racial discrimination and illegal forms have been eliminated, but more subtle forms of discrimination still exist.”

There are few cases parallel to Keflezighi’s in American sports. Some are noteworthy because of how little discussion, by comparison, they generated over the athlete’s nationality. For example, the Hall of Fame basketball player Patrick Ewing (Jamaica) and the gold medal gymnast Nastia Liukin (Russia) were born abroad, but when they represented the United States in competition, they seemingly did not encounter the same skepticism that Keflezighi has.

Richard Lapchick, the director of the Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sport at the University of Central Florida , said the argument about Keflezighi “tells us there are people that still have racial red flags go up when certain things happen.”

He added: “Many people think that with an African-American president, we are in a postracial society. Clearly, we are not.”
The online postings about Keflezighi were anonymous. One of the milder ones on Letsrun.com said: “Give us all a break. It’s just another African marathon winner.”

A comment on The New York Times’s site said: “Keflezighi is really another elite African runner by birth, upbringing, and training. Americans are kidding themselves if they say he represents a resurgence of American distance prowess! On the other hand, he is an excellent representative of how we import everything we need!”

In a commentary on CNBC.com , Darren Rovell wrote, “Nothing against Keflezighi, but he’s like a ringer who you hire to work a couple hours at your office so that you can win the executive softball league.”
Keflezighi said on Monday that remarks about his heritage were not new. “I’ve had to deal with it,” he said. “But, hey, I’ve been here 22 years. And the U.S.A. is a land of immigrants. A lot of people have come from different places.”

The last American to win the New York race, Alberto Salazar, was also born in another country. He came to the United States from Cuba when he was 2. When he won, though, he did not hear grumbling about whether he should be considered an American. He pointed out two differences between his case and Keflezighi’s: Salazar is Hispanic, not black; and when he won in 1982, the Internet, in its current form, did not exist.

The argument that Keflezighi is not really an American makes little sense, Salazar said in a telephone interview.

“What if Meb’s parents had moved to this country a year before he was born?” he said. At what point is someone truly American? “Only if your family traces itself back to 1800, will it count?”

The issue previously arose when Keflezighi won a silver medal in the 2004 Athens Olympics, said Weldon Johnson, a founder of Letsrun.com. So when the negative postings appeared Sunday, he said, “I did not like seeing them, but I was not surprised.”

Perhaps the passion over Keflezighi’s victory stems from the despair over the state of American distance running. Americans used to be the best, in the 1970s and 1980s. But their time of glory waned as East Africans began dominating.


East African success
The success of distance runners from Kenya and Ethiopia fostered a lore of East Africans as genetically gifted, unbeatable, dominant because of their biology. Scientists have looked for — but not found — genes specific to East Africans that could account for their distance ability, said John Hoberman, a professor at the University of Texas at Austin who studies race and sports.

But, he said, “there is a difference between saying we don’t have a scientifically respectable conclusion and the very broad and perhaps mistaken claim that there is no physiological phenomenon here whatsoever.”


The differences of this guy compared to the others mention:

Nastia Liukin: is white

Patrick Ewing: has anglo name, people are used to blacks dominating basketball. A black guy from Jamaica is viewed the same as a black guy from Detroit

Alberto Salazar: hispanic immigration, and racial issues in general, were not a big deal in 1982. Also most cubans at the time were mainly european spaniards, not mestizos/mulattos, so they were just seen as another 'white ethnic' group like Italians or Jews.

[Crimson Guard]

^ Fuck you, dago. :coffee:

You have little idea of what it is to be an American here since colonial times....and I can tell you are a WOP just by the way you write. :wink

Why spank you very much! And I can tell you that your an ignorant hillbilly just by the way you can't handle reality. Next time you play the banjo to me, remind me to break it over your head. ;)

_______________________________________-

Goidelic,

Professor Coon , gave these examples of "Colonial Yankee" types in his book TROE:

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/troe274.jpg
New Englander of Colonial British descent. This tall, slenderly built, ash-blond-haired Nordic is an extreme example of the Corded type which entered Britain first during the Bronze Age in conjunction with brachycephals, and later during the Iron Age as an element in the Nordic invading groups. Its presence in New England in 1938 can only be regarded as a complete reëmergence.

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/troe252-3.jpg
A metrically similar New Englander from a Massachusetts coastal city, of Colonial Yankee lineage. He represents, a reëmergence or survival within the New England stock of the same British Mediterranean element.

[Loddfafner]

Fire Jose and then see what happens! No Joses, no one to do your dirty jobs!

No Joses and then the market wage rate for an hour of work may rise to a level where the people doing the hardest, nastiest work might get paid enough to raise their families. The economy will be in better shape as those extra wages amount to higher aggregate demand.

[Loddfafner]

And I can tell you that your an ignorant hillbilly just by the way you can't handle reality. Next time you play the banjo to me, remind me to break it over your head. ;)


Never underestimate hillbillies. And don't mistake American ethnicity in a narrow sense with American citizenship in a broad sense.

[Electronic God-Man]

Why spank you very much! And I can tell you that your an ignorant hillbilly just by the way you can't handle reality. Next time you play the banjo to me, remind me to break it over your head. ;)


And certainly don't disrespect the banjo!

ofAQtE7zHe0

[Barreldriver]

Never underestimate hillbillies. And don't mistake American ethnicity in a narrow sense with American citizenship in a broad sense.

Exactly. Not all Americans are the same as Crimson Guard has incorrectly assumed and just because you hold American citizenship this does not guarantee you a spot within one of our sub-cultural ethnic groups, I had expected better honestly. Maybe it'll do some good for these folks making false assumptions about American's to spend time among the various groups rather than just visiting metropolis regions and tourist sites and basing their views on those.


I find it hard to take the word of a city dweller to determine the ethnic divisions of America considering cities for the most part are defined by industry and corporation, not much culture there until you get into the slums, and then you get dirty culture.

The rural regions are the soul of America.

And the correct term is Appalachian, not hillbillies. :P I'm PC naow! :eek: j/k (not really, I'm not really PC, please don't go all mac on me!)

[Allenson]

Fire Jose and then see what happens! No Joses, no one to do your dirty jobs!.

LOL. You know, that brings up an interesting personal story of mine. Here-goes:

Around here, it is very "white", as in something along the lines of 95%--98% "white". It is rare to see a black, Hispanic, Asian, etc.

Anyway, where I live, the top of the economic food chain is white as is the bottom--so we range from stiff upper lip WASPs all the way down to toothless trailer dwellers...but they're white, mind you.

My sister-in-law lives in San Francisco (she's white too!) and a few years ago, the (ex?) wife and I were out in California visiting her. It was my first every trip to California, mind you and our plan was to drive up to Oregon from San Fran to visit my father-in-law (the two lady's father, of course). So, before we head north, my sister-in-law decides to have the motor oil in her car changed. We pull into one of those Jiffy-Lube things and out comes this small army of five-foot tall Mexican dudes--ya know, Juan, Jose, Angel, Pedro, the whole crew. They all start dashing around the car, popping the hood, draining the oil, taking off the old filter, putting a new one on, checking the tire pressure, filling the engine with new oil, windshield cleaner, etc. They were fast, friendly & efficient, if even their English was a bit lacking.

It was a very strange experience for me as it was my first real look at a social strata that we don't have here. I remember feeling a bit weird about the whole thing. Back home (here)--it would have been two grisly old white dudes that would have done the job and I likely would have known them somewhat (although, I do all my oil changes myself, thanks ;) ). It was all very caste-like--the two ladys and I, with our fair hair & pink faces and this small army of short, round-headed Mexicans racing around the car like so many Speedy Gonzalezes.

I am of the mind that no job is too dirty for me. The true Old American is self-reliant, self-sufficient and does his own work. No negro slaves, thanks & no $5/hour Mexicans either. :thumbs up

Andale! Andale!

http://www.loe1000.org/speedy_gonzales_pose.gif

[Treffie]

And certainly don't disrespect the banjo!



Every time I hear a banjo, it reminds me of the film Deliverance.

`Squeal like a pig, boy!!!` :p

[Loki]

Every time I hear a banjo, it reminds me of the film Deliverance.

`Squeal like a pig, boy!!!` :p

Some excellent American banjo sounds in this song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-YfiGQmXKs

:thumb001:

[SuuT]

Andale! Andale!




don't mistake American ethnicity in a narrow sense with American citizenship in a broad sense.


No Joses and [...] The economy will be in better shape as those extra wages amount to higher aggregate demand.


Fire Jose and then see what happens! No Joses, no one to do your dirty jobs!


My daily observations tell me that it is being torn down, also a continuous process. Ah, my heart for the Golden Age! ;)



You know, it's interesting: No where in America has the myth of "The Hard Working Latin American who just wants to make a better life for himself and his family" been perpetuated more vehemently than here, in Florida. Hand-in-hand with that myth, is its pancho-wearing cousin, the "who else will do these jobs!" myth (which is blatently racist). Both sides of the political spectrum and everywhere inbetween utilised it to the advantage of self-perpetuation, control and to supply a steady diet of fear.

Anyway, when the market crashed, and work became scarce, local and state governments became inundated with demands that who they were hiring to do Green Industry work (Landscaping and such) be released in a far more transparent way. Everyone knows/knew these workers to be illegal; but the public was fed so much of that fear, so much of that "the economy will collapse! We're all gonna die!" bullshit, that until the proverbial shit hit the fan, people were just happy to be afraid (I guess). Fast-forwarding a bit, Governmental agencies scrambled to inact new, tougher standards for citezenship/visa verification all while Latin Americans, Hatians, etc. were seen leaving in a mass exodus.

Long story short, it is next to impossible for any Green Industry company to pass-off an illegal in any bid/proposal submitted to a governmental body. Guess who (happily) filled-in the job slots? Native Floridians - who prior to the abolished favouritism for illegal migrant workers living 17 to a hut and sending all but the $1/day they need for their McChicken sandwich at lunch back to their respective countries of origin, could oterwise never have gotten that job.


This concludes the "Things might not be so bad" tip of the day.

[Andorran]

Fire Jose and then see what happens! No Joses, no one to do your dirty jobs!




Portugal isn't a land of immigrants as the New World is per definition(intrinsic to its nature), but even so i welcome those who come here to help us building our country, feel free to come here if you wish so.

Of course you'd welcome it. You're living in a country that is far more racially degenerated than the U.S. Having a few White people around might improve things for you!

And wouldn't you consider your negro forebears "immigrants" since they didn't originate in Portugal?

[Treffie]

Of course you'd welcome it. You're living in a country that is far more racially degenerated than the U.S. Having a few White people around might improve things for you!

And wouldn't you consider your negro forebears "immigrants" since they didn't originate in Portugal?


I doubt that you've ever visited Portugal, or Europe for that matter :D

[Andorran]

I doubt that you've ever visited Portugal, or Europe for that matter :D

Wrong. Now what was the point of your post?

[Treffie]

Wrong. Now what was the point of your post?

Hicksville, Tennessee doesn't count.

What was the point of yours? :)

[Andorran]

Hicksville, Tennessee doesn't count.

What was the point of yours? :)

I was responding to some PC nonsense I might otherwise encounter on an MTV sponsored "reality show".

You still have no point. If you take exception to something, man up and say what you mean.

On the road now, so I'll check back later to see if you can put a concrete thought together. Good luck with that.

[Treffie]

I was responding to some PC nonsense I might otherwise encounter on an MTV sponsored "reality show".

You still have no point. If you take exception to something, man up and say what you mean.

On the road now, so I'll check back later to see if you can put a concrete thought together. Good luck with that.

Explain your original post please, you obviously have no idea what you're talking about. :)

[Kadu]

Of course you'd welcome it. You're living in a country that is far more racially degenerated than the U.S. Having a few White people around might improve things for you!

Get a grip, you're a NW Euro-blend yourself, of Irish, Scottish, and German ancestry. It takes a great deal of stupidity and ignorance to tell that to someone who probably has no foreign influence at all since 50 generations ago.

[SuuT]

Limpeza de sangue:D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Maler_der_Geschichte_von_Bay%C3%A2d_und_Riy%C3%A2d _002.jpg


;)

[Kadu]

Limpeza de sangue:D

In Urban centres yes, not really our example was we were and are still are a very rural country.

[Andorran]

Get a grip, you're a NW Euro-blend yourself, of Irish, Scottish, and German ancestry. It takes a great deal of stupidity and ignorance to tell that to someone who probably has no foreign influence at all since 50 generations ago.

You're right.

I'm the "mixed" product of a couple of different White countries.

And you are 100% Portugese.

I'm sure you play basketball much better than me, and can tapdance exceptionally well.

[Osweo]

I'm sure you play basketball much better than me, and can tapdance exceptionally well.
This is becoming SO boring. Portuguese don't look like subSaharan Africans. They don't look like whoever that slightly black US actor was in that Jailbreak series that was on not so long ago. They look like Portuguese. As I think of ones I've seen, they're characterised by peculiarly thin noses, and generally gracile structure. There is zero prognathism. You are clearly talking out of your arse. It's embarrassing to watch, please stop it.

[Treffie]

You're right.

I'm the "mixed" product of a couple of different White countries.

And you are 100% Portugese.

I'm sure you play basketball much better than me, and can tapdance exceptionally well.

I'd love to see a photo of what you would consider as a `typical` Portuguese.

This perhaps?

http://www.blackmeninamerica.com/Gillis%20Triplett%20-%20BIO%20Photo.JPG

[Barreldriver]

Hicksville, Tennessee doesn't count.



This is quite disrespectful in regards to my state, it is one thing to say it jokingly, but to use slander as this to fuel a debate is quite low. I will not stand by this you fucking cunt.

[Treffie]

This is quite disrespectful in regards to my state, it is one thing to say it jokingly, but to use slander as this to fuel a debate is quite low. I will not stand by this you fucking cunt.

LOL:D No, it wasn't, why would you think that? Why would I think of you, Barrel? Pretty self absorbed to think that in my opinion.

[Barreldriver]

LOL:D No, it wasn't, why would you think that? Why would I think of you, Barrel? Pretty self absorbed to think that in my opinion.

Using "Hickville Tennessee" in the context of the conversation was disrespectful to all Tennesseans. Has nothing to do with my personal interest, but the integrity of my state and my home.

[Treffie]

Using "Hickville Tennessee" in the context of the conversation was disrespectful to all Tennesseans.

Grow up Barrel, so could Welsh Hobbits, do you see me crying?

[Barreldriver]

Grow up Barrel, so could Welsh Hobbits, do you see me crying?

Does it look like I'm crying? I'm suggesting you shape the fuck up, your slander was unprovoked and uncalled for, and from what I've seen the "Welsh Hobbit" comparison on this forum was used in good humor, your hick comment was used as slander to fuel a debate, it was out of place and inappropriate for any point you were trying to prove.

[Treffie]

Does it look like I'm crying? I'm suggesting you shape the fuck up, your slander was unprovoked and uncalled for, and from what I've seen the "Welsh Hobbit" comparison on this forum was used in good humor, your hick comment was used as slander to fuel a debate, it was out of place and inappropriate for any point you were trying to prove.

Whatever! It wasn't aimed at you, so take 5 minutes out and calm down.

[Barreldriver]

Whatever! It wasn't aimed at you, so take 5 minutes out and calm down.

I never said it was aimed at me did I? I said using that phrase was in ill taste for the debate. There seems to be a lot of slander towards the South lately on this forum and I'm tired of seeing it slide by unchallenged.

[Treffie]

I never said it was aimed at me did I? I said using that phrase was in ill taste for the debate. There seems to be a lot of slander towards the South lately on this forum and I'm tired of seeing it slide by unchallenged.

In a way, yes - and all your Tennessee compatriots. Why would I want to `slander` a whole state when I'm quite aware of the Welsh influence on the state?

Clever dick

http://www.drinkinhand.com/vendors/jackdaniels.gif

[Barreldriver]

In a way, yes - and all your Tennessee compatriots. Why would I want to `slander` a whole state when I'm quite aware of the Welsh influence on the state

Clever dick

http://www.drinkinhand.com/vendors/jackdaniels.gif

I said the statement was in ill taste for a debate and had nothing to do with the point you were trying to press. It had no relevance to the thread subject, or the conversation subject, so it is logical to assume there was some ill intent by using "Hickville Tennessee" when it does not apply to anything in the debate.

[Treffie]

I said the statement was in ill taste for a debate and had nothing to do with the point you were trying to press. It had no relevance to the thread subject, or the conversation subject, so it is logical to assume there was some ill intent by using "Hickville Tennessee" when it does not apply to anything in the debate.

Ill intent? Erm, no - not towards you nor your fellow Tennesseeans.

[Osweo]

He didn't mean it like that, BD, but I reckon this sort of thing does too easily get repeated. There are those who have deliberately sought to shape this image of your region, and we elsewhere unwittingly get exposed to the indoctrination. Forgive our lapses.

[Barreldriver]

Ill intent? Erm, no - not towards you nor your fellow Tennesseeans.

Observe:


Originally Posted by Arawn
I doubt that you've ever visited Portugal, or Europe for that matter



Originally posted by Andorran
Wrong. Now what was the point of your post?[/B]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Andorran
[B]Wrong. Now what was the point of your post?
Hicksville, Tennessee doesn't count.



How does using "Hicksville, Tennessee" have anything to do with the debate?

[Treffie]

Observe:


How does using "Hicksville, Tennessee" have anything to do with the debate? And it seems to have that Kaduesque touch insinuating that Tennessee has not ties to Europe.

Well, there's certainly one things that sometimes separates us - sense of humour. I see that it's totally lost on you.

[Barreldriver]

Well, there's certainly one things that sometimes separates us - sense of humour. I see that it's totally lost on you.

I have a sense of humor, in good taste. The later, the part about good taste, you seem to lack.

[Treffie]

I have a sense of humor, in good taste. The later, the part about good taste, you seem to lack.

Bah, humbug! :p

[Trog]

I dunno Barrell, but I really don't see why or even how I should connect with Americans like you. You're like Amish, Mormons or Mennonites - just too inner-looking in your own ways.

[Barreldriver]

I dunno Barrell, but I really don't see why or even how I should connect with Americans like you. You're like Amish, Mormons or Mennonites - just too inner-looking in your own ways.

I'm just pointing out the cultural origins of my kin, my region, and related folks. Only the willfully ignorant will deny the origins and legacy of a folk just because of some bias. There are a number of texts and documentaries on the subject in support of what I state in regards to Appalachia and the origins of the culture and blood of the region.

I don't care what you identify or connect with, I do know what my heritage is, and who my kin are.

[Trog]

I'm just pointing out the cultural origins of my kin, my region, and related folks. Only the willfully ignorant will deny the origins and legacy of a folk just because of some bias. There are a number of texts and documentaries on the subject in support of what I state in regards to Appalachia and the origins of the culture and blood of the region.

I don't care what you identify or connect with, I do know what my heritage is, and who my kin are.

Did you point them out? What were these cultural things? Because culture is a word thrown around an awful lot. And if I'm honest, it's perhaps the negative image of Appalachians that makes me view them in the same manner I do gypies back here, thus I would prefer to rescind any link. So promote them to me.

Incidentally, I feel Americans view Europe as something very, very different, quite odd and rather weird. Any attempts to connect both continents seem to fail, they've been apart for just too long. Similar in a sense to African-Americans and their lost roots. Well Americans (excluding 1/2nd generations) have been away for that long, you're no longer the same as us. Beside, even Britons can hardly call themselves Europeans, we're just that different. But for Americans, that distance is even greater.

[la bombe]

Only the willfully ignorant will deny the origins and legacy of a folk just because of some bias.

Yeah, it must be like Americans who deny non-white influence in 'white American'/'European-American' culture.

[Barreldriver]

Yeah, it must be like Americans who deny non-white influence in 'white American'/'European-American' culture.

That non-white influence is not evident in all American cultures, because there is not one American culture, there are American sub-cultures, each one different from the next.

[Barreldriver]

Did you point them out? What were these cultural things? Because culture is a word thrown around an awful lot. And if I'm honest, it's perhaps the negative image of Appalachians that makes me view them in the same manner I do gypies back here, thus I would prefer to rescind any link. So promote them to me.

Incidentally, I feel Americans view Europe as something very, very different, quite odd and rather weird. Any attempts to connect both continents seem to fail, they've been apart for just too long. Similar in a sense to African-Americans and their lost roots. Well Americans (excluding 1/2nd generations) have been away for that long, you're no longer the same as us. Beside, even Britons can hardly call themselves Europeans, we're just that different. But for Americans, that distance is even greater.

For starters read through everything on this site, all the links etc... http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ug97/albion/albion3.htmlThen read the book called Albion's Seed, and I suggest you read some county histories that go into detail on the founding populations of these counties, and check this out while your at it http://www.appalachiafilm.org/

[Loddfafner]

On Appalachian culture and on the tendency of outsiders to throw around the crudest stereotypes, see Jim Goad's Redneck Manifesto (http://www.amazon.com/Redneck-Manifesto-Hillbillies-Americas-Scapegoats/dp/0684838648).

From Wikipedia:

Goad, a journalist by training, claims that most U.S. American Whites descend from impoverished Europeans, who were brought to the New World in shackles, like the African slaves later. Convicts, beggars, orphans, and the kidnapped were sent to America, and the Caribbean colonies, to work the land. The writer compares their plight to slavery, and argues that the institution of indentured servitude has been falsely portrayed as an option of free choice. His strong, albeit somewhat humorous and controversial defense of the white underclass, aka "White trash", is largely based on the assumption that its members have been wronged throughout history, while they have been denied their rights by the upper classes' insistence on portraying the position of the poor as a result of bad choice and character, unlike the poor of other ethnic backgrounds.

[la bombe]

That non-white influence is not evident in all American cultures, because there is not one American culture, there are American sub-cultures, each one different from the next.

Unless you live in an isolated bubble cut off from society (with no TV, music, movie, books, etc), there is a mainstream American culture. That's why I have more in common with an American thousands of miles away in say, Maine, than I do with someone from Germany. Our language, upbringing, lifestyle and cultural references are far more intertwined and interconnected than with a foreigner, regardless of genetic similarities.

No matter how 'pure' you think your Appalachian culture is, you're still an American first and foremost.

[Barreldriver]

From Wikipedia:
Goad, a journalist by training, claims that most U.S. American Whites descend from impoverished Europeans, who were brought to the New World in shackles, like the African slaves later. Convicts, beggars, orphans, and the kidnapped were sent to America, and the Caribbean colonies, to work the land. The writer compares their plight to slavery, and argues that the institution of indentured servitude has been falsely portrayed as an option of free choice. His strong, albeit somewhat humorous and controversial defense of the white underclass, aka "White trash", is largely based on the assumption that its members have been wronged throughout history, while they have been denied their rights by the upper classes' insistence on portraying the position of the poor as a result of bad choice and character, unlike the poor of other ethnic backgrounds.





Not true in some cases, as my folk were middle gentry and were wealthy land owners continuing that legacy in America up until the Great Depression and somewhat reforging that after the Depression. I doubt a slave would be the owner of a 448 acre plantation (later on a 100 acre angus farm), then have a multitude of collateral kin with similar ownerships, all descending from similar stock.

[Beorn]

No matter how 'pure' you think your Appalachian culture is, you're still an American first and foremost.

That may be true; and I have long made my opinion very clear on where I stand in concerns to Americans and the British, but if we were to use comparisons of distance and sharing a "communal" culture then a person from Berlin would be an alien and someone from Tennessee would be my kin.

[Allenson]

I do know what my heritage is, and who my kin are.

That's all that counts, friend. Historical, familial & personal context is very, very important and it sounds to me like you've got it. Don't let 'em bring ya down. :thumb001:

[Barreldriver]

Unless you live in an isolated bubble cut off from society (with no TV, music, movie, books, etc), there is a mainstream American culture. I only take to heart books or programs that have to do with topics that are relevant to my legacy. I have viewed on occasion other things, but they did not influence my culture.




That's why I have more in common with an American thousands of miles away in say, Maine, than I do with someone from Germany. Our language, upbringing, lifestyle and cultural references are far more intertwined and interconnected than with a foreigner, regardless of genetic similarities.

Good for you, stress on you, I have nothing in common with a man from Maine outside of U.S. citizenship.


No matter how 'pure' you think your Appalachian culture is, you're still an American first and foremost.

Easy for an outsider to make such generalizations. We are a separate kind that just so happens to be under Union executive power.

[Damião de Góis]

Portugal isn't a land of immigrants

Maybe not where you live in the north...


i welcome those who come here to help us building our country

That's because you don't have brazilians shooting around in Minho :)


feel free to come here if you wish so.

Why would you want americans to come here after what has been said in this thread? I think they are better at home shooting cans in the backyard or whatever it is that they do.

[Jägerstaffel]

Why would you want americans to come here after what has been said in this thread? I think they are better at home shooting cans in the backyard or whatever it is that they do.

Is that necessary?

[Allenson]

Why would you want americans to come here after what has been said in this thread? I think they are better at home shooting cans in the backyard or whatever it is that they do.

LOL.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_sNI_WbKM4OI/StNbfw9YRkI/AAAAAAAAASw/UVb71zqKsgA/s400/Braedon+BB+gun.jpg

[la bombe]

That may be true; and I have long made my opinion very clear on where I stand in concerns to Americans and the British, but if we were to use comparisons of distance and sharing a "communal" culture then a person from Berlin would be an alien and someone from Tennessee would be my kin.

America obviously has strong genetic and cultural influence from the British Isles, more so than any other place in Europe for sure. That doesn't make us British though, and it doesn't change the fact that America has been greatly influenced by 'non-white' cultures as well.

[Barreldriver]

Why would you want americans to come here after what has been said in this thread? I think they are better at home shooting cans in the backyard or whatever it is that they do.

I don't want to come to Portugal. I'd rather be at home being a plinker, as plinker is the term you were looking for when referencing those who shoot cans in their backyards and stuff. :D

[Trog]

For starters read through everything on this site, all the links etc... http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ug97/albion/albion3.htmlThen read the book called Albion's Seed, and I suggest you read some county histories that go into detail on the founding populations of these counties, and check this out while your at it http://www.appalachiafilm.org/

From one of your links:


We watch as the first humans who arrived as early as 12,000 B.C. develop a complex and sophisticated relationship with the natural world. In Appalachia, we soon discover, geology is destiny. We see portraits of Appalachia’s Principal People at the time of European contact: the Cherokee, Shawnee, and Iroquois — vibrant, adaptive cultures with finely tuned relationships to their environment, a complex ecological community with amazing biological diversity. The arrival of the Europeans signals vast cultural and biological upheavals

Brits today will hardly have retained culture from 50 years ago, never mind a few hundred years ago, so this is all very flimsy and incidental. I don't see how it creates a bond, at least I don't see a way of identifying with Appalachians and it would probably be even less a cultural link than with mainstream Americans. All you've done so far is to link the commonality of rural people. I am also crudely aware of there being native American input in Appalachia. You cannot write these people out of the Appalachia history.

But I will try and remain open-minded.

[Barreldriver]

America obviously has strong genetic and cultural influence from the British Isles, more so than any other place in Europe for sure. That doesn't make us British though, and it doesn't change the fact that America has been greatly influenced by 'non-white' cultures as well.

Since you are a bit of a n00b I will start you off with this beginners source:

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ug97/albion/albion3.html


Read it then have the nerve to tell me what my folk are. How hard is it to understand that not all Americans fit the same bloody mold, just because one American sub-group, stress on sub-group, has non-Europid influences, does not mean they all do.


The only difference with my family and most other Appalachians is that we are unilineal and patrilineal rather than having focus on collateral kin. We have a sort of clan system but less focus on collateral kin than other Appalachians. This has to due with our economic status most likely.

[Electronic God-Man]

Then read the book called Albion's Seed

That's an excellent book. I own it and have read it cover to cover. :thumb001:

[Kadu]

Maybe not where you live in the north...

I was talking on a Ethnogenesis-wise perspective.




That's because you don't have brazilians shooting around in Minho :)

Indeed, here we have Portuguese people practising Car-jacking, armed robbery and extorsing, mafia-like, in a more violent way than you folks have down there.




Why would you want americans to come here after what has been said in this thread? I think they are better at home shooting cans in the backyard or whatever it is that they do.

He doesn't represent Americans he's only one individual.

[Beorn]

That doesn't make us British though

I never said it did. Even the British aren't British. You are Americans.


and it doesn't change the fact that America has been greatly influenced by 'non-white' cultures as well.

I don't think selling oranges on street corners constitutes as a cultural influence...does it?

[Barreldriver]

We watch as the first humans who arrived as early as 12,000 B.C. develop a complex and sophisticated relationship with the natural world. In Appalachia, we soon discover, geology is destiny. We see portraits of Appalachia’s Principal People at the time of European contact: the Cherokee, Shawnee, and Iroquois — vibrant, adaptive cultures with finely tuned relationships to their environment, a complex ecological community with amazing biological diversity. The arrival of the Europeans signals vast cultural and biological upheavals

Fail to realize they were replaced and erased. These injuns no longer influence the region, at least where my kin are from, I cannot speak for the other Appalachians, I just know my own community. We had zero injuns in the region, the European descending folks were the source of the culture and heritage of the region. And that part of the link is in regards to the pre-European folks and early European settlement, hardly an accurate view of what Appalachia is today. Way to cherrypick. Show's your integrity.

Notice this last statement:

The arrival of the Europeans signals vast cultural and biological upheavals

[Barreldriver]

Hell my kind even follow the similar supernatural habits as those who were our ancestors:

"The people of the backcountry brought with them the magic that existed on the borders of North Britain in the early and middle decades of the eighteenth century. These beliefs included an interest in witchcraft, wizardry and other forms of diabolical magic but not the same sort of witchcraft obsession that had flourished among the Puritans a century earlier.

Witchcraft still survived in this culture. Daniel Drake remembered meeting a borderer in the American backcountry named Old Billy Johnson who was "an implicit believer in witchcraft, and 'raising' and 'laying' the Devil."114 The folklore of the southern mountains was full of witches and goblins for many generations. As late as the 1930s, collectors of folk beliefs in the southern mountains were told of many witch-beliefs.... " http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ug97/albion/amagic.html


The only element that sets me apart from most other Appalachians is the emphasis on paternal inheritance, this was in large due to our economic status in England and the Piedmont before settling in the Appalachian Plateau.

[la bombe]

Since you are a bit of a n00b I will start you off with this beginners source:

http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ug97/albion/albion3.html


Read it then have the nerve to tell me what my folk are. How hard is it to understand that not all Americans fit the same bloody mold, just because one American sub-group, stress on sub-group, has non-Europid influences, does not mean they all do.


The only difference with my family and most other Appalachians is that we are unilineal and patrilineal rather than having focus on collateral kin. We have a sort of clan system but less focus on collateral kin than other Appalachians. This has to due with our economic status most likely.

Weren't you raised in Ohio??



I don't think selling oranges on street corners constitutes as a cultural influence...does it?

Actually, Mexicans and other Hispanic groups have had an important influence here in the Southwest US for hundreds of years now. The fact that some people on this board seem to believe that anyone with brown skin and a Hispanic name magically hopped over the border 3 years ago is pure ignorance.

[Damião de Góis]

Indeed, here we have Portuguese people practising Car-jacking, armed robbery and extorsing, mafia-like, in a more violent way than you folks have down there.

I really doubt that. Maybe you should come here and see, i would tell you the names of some neighbourhoods that are very safe to be at night in Lisbon and Setúbal. :)
And guess what... the people who live there are not portuguese.



He doesn't represent Americans he's only one individual.

I know. But i felt like writing that post anyway after reading the thread :P
My apollogies to other americans.

[Trog]

I still don't recognise a link. Why can't you just be happy with it being what it is -Appalachian culture? There's no need for you to try and link with an imagined past. And whilst you have some British ancestry, this, in itself, does not make you European, even more so since you don't live on the continent and have never done. This is true for all southern Americans, despite the culture input from this part of the world, i.e. Europe, the fact is, you're not part of it, your ancestors from a few hundred years ago were. But you are so far removed from it now that you're the same as African-Americans are to Africa. It's distant and it's forlorn.

[Beorn]

Actually, Mexicans and other Hispanic groups have had an important influence here in the Southwest US for hundreds of years now.

I'm sure they have. Just not as an important a contribution as the European-Americans.

[Barreldriver]

Weren't you raised in Ohio??




No. Overton County Tennessee. I just live in Ohio for schooling. My kin settled in the Piedmont originally then migrated to the Appalachian plateau. During the Depression my great grandfather rented out parts of the Angus farm for extra cash while moving to Ohio to work for Goodyear, my grandfather was born in Ohio yes, but the family still practiced Appalachian culture, luckily my grandmother was paternally rooted in the Piedmont so there was an Appalachian connection there to keep us somewhat endogamist, the only thing that set her apart was her mother being an Anglo-Canadian. My father was born in Ohio but again raised with the Appalachian culture. My mother has roots in the Piedmont and the Appalachian Plateau, but was not raised in Appalachian culture, which had no effect on me since my kingroup is distinctively Patrilineal. I was born in Ohio, but was brought up in Overton County Tennessee (in the Appalachian Plateau) where my family have been since 1800-1806, before that we were from the Piedmont, and before that Britain.

[Barreldriver]

I still don't recognise a link. Why can't you just be happy with it being what it is -Appalachian culture? There's no need for you to try and link with an imagined past. And whilst you have some British ancestry, this, in itself, does not make you European, even more so since you don't live on the continent and have never done. This is true for all southern Americans, despite the culture input from this part of the world, i.e. Europe, the fact is, you're not part of it, your ancestors from a few hundred years ago were. But you are so far removed from it now that you're the same as African-Americans are to Africa. It's distant and it's forlorn.

I never said I was anything other than an Appalachian, I did say however my folks have roots in Britain and that our culture is a legacy of that, and I have more than "some British blood", try nearly 7/8ths.

[Kadu]

I really doubt that. Maybe you should come here and see, i would tell you the names of some neighboorhoods that are very safe to be at night in Lisbon and Setúbal. :)
And guess what... the people who live there are not portuguese.


You are talking about slums and i'm talking about organized crime, extorsion, auto-theft, narcotics, etc...
And in this matter i must say i have an advantage over you as you never stepped foot in the North.

[la bombe]

Not one that is noticeable at any rate.

*facepalm*

For real? You've never actually been to the Southwest US I assume?

[Beorn]

For real? You've never actually been to the Southwest US I assume?

Yes, for real. I have never been to the SouthWest of the U.S. and it is why I have noticed that this influence is not as strong as you suggest.

[Damião de Góis]

You are talking about slums and i'm talking about organized crime, extorsion, auto-theft, narcotics, etc...

They are not slums. Cova da Moura and Chelas for example are in the middle of Lisbon, they are just nice neighbourhoods with lovely people.

So Braga is like Chicago in the 30s? Why isn't it on the news then? Lisbon and Setúbal are constantly on the news for the worse reasons and i'm sure you know it. Are you saying that the criminality in Braga is higher than that of Lisbon and Setúbal?


And in this matter i must say i have an advantage over you as you never stepped foot in the North.

I went to Aveiro once :D
And you went here as a tourist too for a few days, right? I don't think it compares to someone who actually lives here, so that advantage you say means little.

[Jägerstaffel]

The US is a collection of disconnected parts and cultures rather than a thing as a whole.

If Hispanics have had a demonstrative effect on the culture of the Southwest for any period of time it does not necessarily mean that that effect has been felt elsewhere in the country (until recently).

[Treffie]

Yes, for real. I have never been to the SouthWest of the U.S. and it is why I have noticed that this influence is not as strong as you suggest.

So how would you know that? You're not making sense.

[Kadu]

I went to Aveiro once :D

That's not the North that's like saying Miami is in the "South".



And you went here as a tourist too for a few days, right? I don't think it compares to someone who actually lives here, so that advantage you say means little.

Actually i lived in Lisbon for one year but it doesn't count as i was too young. But my Father does and one of my uncles too and i go several times per year there.

[Beorn]

So how would you know that? You're not making sense.

If something is as influential as is implied it would gain recognition. I'm not denying it exists, I am merely stating that La Bombe's bombastic assertion of it being a major influence is, to me, absurd.

It would be akin to a Muslim suggesting that Muslim cultural achievements have heavily influenced Britain, when outside of Britain you'd get more recognition taking a dump in the sea.

[la bombe]

The US is a collection of disconnected parts and cultures rather than a thing as a whole.

If Hispanics have had a demonstrative effect on the culture of the Southwest for any period of time it does not necessarily mean that that effect has been felt elsewhere in the country (until recently).

You can replace "Hispanic" with "African-American" for mainstream American culture.


Yes, for real. I have never been to the SouthWest of the U.S. and it is why I have noticed that this influence is not as strong as you suggest.

Wut? Then how could you make a judgment?

[Treffie]

Does Portugal have a place in this thread? Now bugger off you two! :p

[Treffie]

If something is as influential as is implied it would gain recognition. I'm not denying it exists, I am merely stating that La Bombe's bombastic assertion of it being a major influence is, to me, absurd.



Ok, you've been drinking again, haven't you? You can't correlate the two Beorn.

[Kadu]

Are you saying that the criminality in Braga is higher than that of Lisbon and Setúbal?

Not in Braga, but in Porto and surroundings it is. If we speak specifically of that kind of criminality of course.
Just google "gang do minho", "gang do multibanco" or "Pidá" to find out more about it.

[Jägerstaffel]

You can replace "Hispanic" with "African-American" for mainstream American culture.


I would wager it's only taken a noticeable role in recent years (50 or so) and this is limited to the entertainment industry.

I wonder what mainstream American culture is. Is it the same where you are as for say, Allenson in Vermont? Certainly not the same where Barreldriver is from - I'm sure he'd say.

[Loddfafner]

Western cowboy culture is an example of Spanish influence. Americans took over where the Spanish left off after the Mexican American war. The old Spanish land grants became American ranches, and the ranchers adopted the same methods and used the same equipment.

[la bombe]

If something is as influential as is implied it would gain recognition. I'm not denying it exists, I am merely stating that La Bombe's bombastic assertion of it being a major influence is, to me, absurd.


Er yeah, I've actually lived in the Southwest US my entire life and basically get to experience whatever cultural influences may or may not exist in this part of the world on a daily basis. I don't get how you would be more equipped to make statements about it than me.

[Barreldriver]

Er yeah, I've actually lived in the Southwest US my entire life and basically get to experience whatever cultural influences may or may not exist in this part of the world on a daily basis. I don't get how you would be more equipped to make statements about it than me.

Same goes for me and Appalachia, yet you seem so confident with your interjections.

[Beorn]

Ok, you've been drinking again, haven't you? You can't correlate the two Beorn.

It's crystal clear.

"and it doesn't change the fact that America has been greatly influenced by 'non-white' cultures as well."

If it had been as greatly influenced as she states then I would have recognised it as such. As it stands, I as an outsider have portrayed it as insignificant. She has gone on the defensive by doling out facepalms and requesting confirmation of my previous holiday destinations instead of now highlighting where this influence resides.

[Andorran]

It's crystal clear.

"and it doesn't change the fact that America has been greatly influenced by 'non-white' cultures as well."

If it had been as greatly influenced as she states then I would have recognised it as such. As it stands, I as an outsider have portrayed it as insignificant. She has gone on the defensive by doling out facepalms and requesting confirmation of my previous holiday destinations instead of now highlighting where this influence resides.

And the necessary question is: If America has indeed been "greatly influenced" by non-white culture, is that a good thing, or something that has had less than desirable outcomes? American politics has been "greatly influenced" by powerful lobby groups in Washington D.C. - is that OK too?

[la bombe]

now highlighting where this influence resides.

If you're genuinely curious about the Southwest, Loddfafner brought up the cowboy/vaquero culture which is unique and significant in the Western US, particularly Texas, and was dependent on the interactions between settlers of New Spain (and later indigenous/mestizo Hispanics from both Mexico and the US) and American migrants of predominately Western European descent. Influence of these interactions are also found in music (like Tejano), and especially food (Tex-Mex).

Until very recently with the huge influx of immigrants from Central America and different parts of the US creating large urban centers, much of the Southwest has been isolated and influenced by Indigenous and Hispanic cultures (especially in the states of New Mexico and Arizona). I spent part of my childhood in an Arizona town right inbetween two Native American reservations with a total Native population of roughly 25% so obviously much of that region's culture was shaped by Native influence, in particular the Navajo and Hopi tribes.

[Jägerstaffel]

And in many parts of the US people have never seen an Indian other than in a movie or on television.

[Electronic God-Man]

And in many parts of the US people have never seen an Indian other than in a movie or on television.

I've seen maybe one real Indian around where I am from, but his tribe was not from around here. And he rode a Harley.

PROUD TO BE CHEROKEE on the back. :rolleyes:

Funny, but that guy's not native to Pennsylvania. All the Indians that lived here are dead as far as I know.

[Fred]

America is explicitly English Republican, rather than English Monarchist. There is about as much difference between America and the Commonwealth as there is between Ireland and Northern Ireland.

[la bombe]

Same goes for me and Appalachia, yet you seem so confident with your interjections.

I said that American culture is influenced by non-whites, which is true and no one has yet to refute. Even your supposedly pure, pristine European Appalachian culture. I mean, I've seen you post videos of yourself playing a banjo, an instrument brought to the US by African slaves.

[SwordoftheVistula]

Actually, Mexicans and other Hispanic groups have had an important influence here in the Southwest US for hundreds of years now.


I have more in common with an American thousands of miles away in say, Maine...

Both of these statements can not possibly be true. Have you ever been to Maine, or even met a Mainer, or even heard the term 'Mainer' before? They're different even from other people in the northeast, much less the opposite side of the country. Certainly no 'influence from Mexican and other Hispanic/mestizo/indian groups', much less a significant one.

From my time living in San Antonio and travelling around the southwest a few times, there doesn't seem to be any 'significant' influence from Hispanics other than place names anyways, and the white people there segregate themselves with money, geography, and social groups just as much as they do up here.


America has been greatly influenced by 'non-white' cultures as well.

Yes, that's we have more of a need for gun rights, capital punishment, and the largest prison population outside of red China.

If you mean the MTV/KFC stuff as 'American culture', then maybe so, but this is more of a 'global culture' now anyways.



But you are so far removed from it now that you're the same as African-Americans are to Africa. It's distant and it's forlorn.

Not 'distant and forlorn' at all. The Africans here are basically the same as the ones in Africa. They've got warring tribes (gangs), they are superstitious, clapping/singing/dancing religious ceremonies, 'shake their booty' to heavy beat music, African-style 'big man' leaders (big city mayors etc), 'it takes a village' (or a welfare state) instead of stable nuclear families, wearing bright colors...nearly everything is the same.

[Treffie]

It's crystal clear.

"and it doesn't change the fact that America has been greatly influenced by 'non-white' cultures as well."

If it had been as greatly influenced as she states then I would have recognised it as such. As it stands, I as an outsider have portrayed it as insignificant. She has gone on the defensive by doling out facepalms and requesting confirmation of my previous holiday destinations instead of now highlighting where this influence resides.

Hardly crystal clear, Beorn. This is like la Bombe giving her opinion of what she thinks of SW England, she hasn't been there, so how could she possibly comment.:)

[Fred]

Western cowboy culture is an example of Spanish influence. Americans took over where the Spanish left off after the Mexican American war. The old Spanish land grants became American ranches, and the ranchers adopted the same methods and used the same equipment.This is only partly true. American herders get their folkways from the Anglo-Scottish borderlands. Rob Roy, even as depicted in film, displays much of this heritage. This truth does not negate the fact that America had an earlier expression based in Hispanic culture.

[Beorn]

Hardly crystal clear, Beorn. This is like la Bombe giving her opinion of what she thinks of SW England, she hasn't been there, so how could she possibly comment.:)

It's nothing of the sort. She stated the influence was significant. I as an outsider can see what America is, was and unfortunately probably will be in time.
In my time of interacting and learning about American culture, it has never struck me as though what La Bombe said is true. I therefore came out and said as such. She got confused, you came out to protect her by insulting me and then she finally got the drift and actually posted a proof.

It's how this shit rolls on discussion forums.

[Treffie]

It's nothing of the sort. She stated the influence was significant. I as an outsider can see what America is, was and unfortunately probably will be in time.
In my time of interacting and learning about American culture, it has never struck me as though what La Bombe said is true. I therefore came out and said as such. She got confused, you came out to protect her by insulting me and then she finally got the drift and actually posted a proof.

It's how this shit rolls on discussion forums.

LOL:D Beorn, you weren't talking sense. It's not a matter of protecting someone, but when you state something indecipherable, the least I can expect is a decent explanation.

[Lady L]

I said that American culture is influenced by non-whites, which is true and no one has yet to refute. Even your supposedly pure, pristine European Appalachian culture. I mean, I've seen you post videos of yourself playing a banjo, an instrument brought to the US by African slaves.

So you think American culture is only influenced by non whites ..? :mmmm:

That is the most retarded thing I've heard ...and anyone who defends or agrees with such a thought falls into that retard category as well. You might have this logic based on the modern world. But that would be shallow thinking because first of all American culture goes way back into a time where blacks couldn't even socialize with whites in public...and also today everyone isn't out there listening to 50 cent waving their hands in the air like they just don't care. :rolleyes2: I know there are plenty of folks in America who are white and who are continuing traditions and ways of living as it was passed down to them. Farming would be a good example.

Just because the modern world tells you what it wants American culture to be today does not mean it is the only way of living and it does not mean thats the only way to live.

[Treffie]

So you think American culture is only influenced by non whites ..? :mmmm:

Where did she say only?


That is the most retarded thing I've heard ...and anyone who defends or agrees with such a thought falls into that retard category as well. You might have this logic based on the modern world. But that would be shallow thinking because first of all American culture goes way back into a time where blacks couldn't even socialize with whites in public...and also today everyone isn't out there listening to 50 cent waving their hands in the air like they just don't care. :rolleyes2: I know there are plenty of folks in America who are white and who are continuing traditions and ways of living as it was passed down to them. Farming would be a good example.

Don't jump to conclusions, it's pretty obvious that la Bombe was referring to the south west of the US where Mexican and Hispanic influence is obvious.

[Electronic God-Man]

I said that American culture is influenced by non-whites, which is true and no one has yet to refute. Even your supposedly pure, pristine European Appalachian culture. I mean, I've seen you post videos of yourself playing a banjo, an instrument brought to the US by African slaves.

Yes, I think American culture, even beyond such wonderful things as rap music, has been influenced by non-whites. The banjo does appear to have been based off of an African instrument too.

But I wouldn't call the non-European influence huge by any means. And I think it is obvious that, for example, African-American culture has been far more influenced by European culture in America rather than vice versa. Doesn't stop African-Americans from claiming things like blues and jazz as their own.

In the end, I'm not unhappy to have a musical object, like the banjo, adopted into American culture. But we're still not dancing around our hut villages to the beat of Yoruba drums, so I think the influence has not been extreme.

[Barreldriver]

I said that American culture is influenced by non-whites, which is true and no one has yet to refute. Even your supposedly pure, pristine European Appalachian culture. I mean, I've seen you post videos of yourself playing a banjo, an instrument brought to the US by African slaves.

The banjo originated in the Middle East for one, and was brought to Africa by Muslims, then to America. So yes the instrument itself is non-white, but the way it is played is based on old British ballads. So get real. And that is the extent of non-white influence in Appalachia, a banjo, that isn't even played like the Africans would, but rather played to accompany fiddle for songs based on British ballads, and we all know how negroid British ballads are.

[SuuT]

The guitar is an African instrument!:eek:...I shall have to stop playing immediately!;)

Chess was invented in Afganistan!:eek:...Check mate!;)

Peanut Butter was invented by a Black!:eek:...Put down that Samitch, Nigger lover!;)


A tool that is used to express ethno-cultural things says nothing about those things expressed. It's the expression that is ethno-cultural.

And get your hand off of that mouse! It was made in China! ;)

[Barreldriver]

The guitar is an African instrument!:eek:...I shall have to stop playing immediately!;)

Chess was invented in Afganistan!:eek:...Check mate!;)

Peanut Butter was invented by a Black!:eek:...Put down that Samitch, Nigger lover!;)


A tool that is used to express ethno-cultural things says nothing about those things expressed. It's the expression that is ethno-cultural.

And get your hand off of that mouse! It was made in China! ;)

Exactly! Guess the willfully ignorant cannot grasp this elementary concept. :thumbs up

[Lady L]

Where did she say only?

I'm aware she didn't say only. That's why I asked the first question. ;) I was basing my question on her statement Arawn. " American culture is influenced by non whites.


Don't jump to conclusions, it's pretty obvious that la Bombe was referring to the south west of the US where Mexican and Hispanic influence is obvious.

Oh yes I'm sure in the South West of the US it is obvious...I wonder why :rolleyes2:...

But no, in that sentence as I just stated she said and I quote " American culture is influenced by non whites " by that statement she suggested America as a whole, not simply and only South West ...so I don't know what your " don't jump to conclusions is all about " :) Either she doesn't know what she is talking about or she worded herself wrong. You pick. ;)

[Barreldriver]

Here's an example to fuel my previous points:




The fiddle was used in the British Isles and the American colonies before the Big South Fork region was settled, so it probably was present in the area from the beginning. It remained the fundamental instrument, next to which the banjo was of secondary importance and served mainly for accompaniment. The fiddle repertoire (i.e., items which continue to be identified as "old-time fiddle tunes" even when they are played on another instrument) forms the Big South Fork's second major category of folk music. Like folksong, this instrumental music is a composite: it includes ancient Celtic airs ("Soldier's Joy," "Billy in the Lowground," "Rocky Road to Dublin," "Devil's Dream") melodies that originated on the Appalachian frontier ("Cumberland Gap," "Sally ~oodin"') (Cumberland Gap is believed to be a sped up version of the Scottish ballad Bonnie George Campbell. )

These songs sound so African huh.


The banjo was . Popularized by the minstrel shows as part of their burlesque of plantation life, the banjo spread among white musicians while blacks, at the same time, rejected this artifact of their own heritage.

The banjo in Appalachian culture evolved out of a way to mock blacks, not a way to celebrate them.

Now, frailing, the original claw hammer, was the original Afro way to pick, but it was done away with in favor of double thumb and Scruggs arpeggio style which better suited the needs of the instrument, which were to accompany British based ballads and tunes.

And one must note that the use of banjo and such is over estimated in the region. The most typical music style in Appalachia is ballad singing. Mostly without accompanying instruments outside of the fiddle. The use of banjo is overestimated among the ethnic folks out of mainstream propaganda's and the popularization of big gig bluegrass bands (who are not an accurate portrayal of a folk themselves). These ballads for fact derived from British trends, not African, not Injun, not anything else.

Point of the conclusion:

1. Banjo was common, yes, but not as common as ballad singers

2. The way the banjo was used is outside the bounds of African influence, and reflects a British influence.

3. The text did state the banjo was a principal instrument of the region, but that only apply's to instrumental songs that needed a banjo, and fact is Ballads accompanied by a fiddle were more typical of the region.

[Treffie]

I'm aware she didn't say only. That's why I asked the first question. ;) I was basing my question on her statement Arawn. " American culture is influenced by non whites.

Then why did you ask the question here?

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=131043&postcount=179




Oh yes I'm sure in the South West of the US it is obvious...I wonder why :rolleyes2:...

But no, in that sentence as I just stated she said and I quote " American culture is influenced by non whites " by that statement she suggested America as a whole, not simply and only South West ...so I don't know what your " don't jump to conclusions is all about " :) Either she doesn't know what she is talking about or she worded herself wrong. You pick. ;)

American culture is influenced by non-whites, more in some areas, less in others and almost virtually non-existent in many. It's easy to turn a blind eye when people don't like what they see, but to completely deny it is just silly.

[Allenson]

American culture is influenced by non-whites, more in some areas, less in others and almost virtually non-existent in many. It's easy to turn a blind eye when people don't like what they see, but to completely deny it is just silly.

Precisely why there is no one blanket in which to snuggle us all up in, together, holding hands & sleeping like babies. :cool:

[Lady L]

Then why did you ask the question here?


Oh my goodness Arawn, I didn't know you were la bombe's babysitter :D I did address her you know ...;) but anyway ...your confusing! I asked the question because I wanted to and because I wanted her to clarify her statement. :) Simple enough eeh?


American culture is influenced by non-whites, more in some areas, less in others and almost virtually non-existent in many. It's easy to turn a blind eye when people don't like what they see, but to completely deny it is just silly.

I never said I denied it Arawn ...sorry that I live in a place which as you described as a place where it is virtually non existent and she lives in a place where it reaks. :/

I mean what's the deal here ...? What do you want from me..? It seems like your wanting me to express how black America is so you can have a good laugh :D:rolleyes2: but sorry I'm Southern and I see Southern living everyday and it isn't based on non whites. ( NE Al that is, South of here it gets rather dark ;) ) :thumbs up Just like you told Beorny ...why are you so defensive in something you don't experience daily ...? ;)

[Allenson]

I still don't recognise a link. Why can't you just be happy with it being what it is -Appalachian culture? There's no need for you to try and link with an imagined past. And whilst you have some British ancestry, this, in itself, does not make you European, even more so since you don't live on the continent and have never done. This is true for all southern Americans, despite the culture input from this part of the world, i.e. Europe, the fact is, you're not part of it, your ancestors from a few hundred years ago were.


I don't think any of us Americans are claiming to be Europeans, in a strict, present sense. All we're doing is recognizing our context & continuum--genetically, phenotypically, linguistically, culturally as a derivitave from Europe. There is no "imagined past", there is simply the past, history as it went down two, three, four-hundred years ago. I remember Mynydd clammering on about our "imagined past" or "imagined genalogies" some time ago and I never understood it. It's not like we're making shit up here. No matter how hard one tries on your side of the Sea, one can not will away the fact that we come from you. Undoubtedly, we are ourselves now--no question there and I don't think any of us on the board would have it any other way. But, the fact remains that there would be no modern America without her European parent.



But you are so far removed from it now that you're the same as African-Americans are to Africa. It's distant and it's forlorn

The big difference being, of course, that most of the Europeans that settled here, came willingly and this folk mind-set has carried down through the generations. We're supposed to be here. Yes-yes, there were white slaves and white indentured servents but they were a small lot and once freedom was gained, they blended right in with the rest of the colonists.

The black experience here, needless to say, has been very-very different than has ours.

[Trog]

Here's an example to fuel my previous points:




The fiddle was used in the British Isles and the American colonies before the Big South Fork region was settled, so it probably was present in the area from the beginning. It remained the fundamental instrument, next to which the banjo was of secondary importance and served mainly for accompaniment. The fiddle repertoire (i.e., items which continue to be identified as "old-time fiddle tunes" even when they are played on another instrument) forms the Big South Fork's second major category of folk music. Like folksong, this instrumental music is a composite: it includes ancient Celtic airs ("Soldier's Joy," "Billy in the Lowground," "Rocky Road to Dublin," "Devil's Dream") melodies that originated on the Appalachian frontier ("Cumberland Gap," "Sally ~oodin"') (Cumberland Gap is believed to be a sped up version of the Scottish ballad Bonnie George Campbell. )


The Picts played stringed instruments as well:

http://www.rensolutions.com/~harp/images/pictish-carving.jpg

[Electronic God-Man]

The big difference being, of course, that most of the Europeans that settled here, came willingly and this folk mind-set has carried down through the generations. We're supposed to be here. Yes-yes, there were white slaves and white indentured servents but they were a small lot and once freedom was gained, they blended right in with the rest of the colonists.

Just a note of clarification: At least half of all Europeans to come to British North America in the 1700's came as indentured servants.

Further reading: White Servitude in Colonial America (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3899&highlight=indentured+servitude) It's a fine source, by a knowledgeable young man. ;)

[Lady L]

We ride around listening to this:

9V81rCycelU

We might be driving this:

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p136/pcl91286/Truck.jpg

This is our Gran Pappy :D He taught us real lessons about life.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u175/icg1032/Other%20Pictures/OldFarmer.jpg

We may have the 2nd most dangerous job in the world, and work our ass off to support our family: :)

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k229/siegesa/lumberjack.jpg

We live here:

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f94/spurs101/Canada/CabinCanada.jpg

We love:

http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp4/brycemorgan452/AIAWP.jpg

and:

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo101/pilotpe/Hunting/2009Grinner.jpg

And most of all we love:

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt96/lady_dream_2009/signs228.jpg

Is that a clear enough picture...? :)

[la bombe]

So you think American culture is only influenced by non whites ..? :mmmm:


Where did I say that? Oh wait, that's right, I didn't. I think it's pretty obvious that America has a strong European base, but it's also pretty obvious that there's quite a lot of non-European influence which makes perfect sense considering that as Americans we are NOT Europeans. We have our own identity and place in the world (not to mention completely different demographics), regardless of how much of a genetic and cultural input Europeans may have had.

And for you to say that the South isn't influenced by non-whites is ridiculous. Do you forget that you live in the part of the country with the highest proportion of African-Americans anywhere in the nation? The South's identity is dependent on the various struggles resulting from slavery and it's aftermath.

As for your characterization of Southern Living, 1/2 of my family is from the South and I can't say they conform to your standards. While they may be country-music loving, white-trash country bumpkins, they're def not racists.


The banjo originated in the Middle East for one, and was brought to Africa by Muslims, then to America. So yes the instrument itself is non-white, but the way it is played is based on old British ballads. So get real. And that is the extent of non-white influence in Appalachia, a banjo, that isn't even played like the Africans would, but rather played to accompany fiddle for songs based on British ballads, and we all know how negroid British ballads are.

The songs you play on it won't change the fact that it wouldn't exist if it weren't for African-American slaves. And considering there ARE African-Americans, Native Americans and those of mixed descent in Appalachia, I doubt that is the sole contribution. As a HBF member born and raised in Appalachia once told you "there's kneegroes in them hills".

[Andorran]

While they may be country-music loving, white-trash country bumpkins, they're def not racists.




I believe "White trash" is the most racist term employed in this thread so far, and it came from a "non-racist" ???

[Kadu]

I believe "White trash" is the most racist term employed in this thread so far, and it came from a "non-racist" ???

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

[Trog]

Clear enough?

Clear enough for me to confirm that as a Scot, Brit and European, I have no relation to this type of culture - or people.

[Beorn]

Clear enough for me to confirm that as a Scot, Brit and European, I have no relation to this type of culture - or people.

You don't love family?

Speaking as an Englishman, Brit and European, I can safely say that I do work my "ass off" to support the needs of my family (when work is forthcoming, of course), I drove tractors and sheared Sheep when younger, I used to chop down trees, sometimes with my neighbour (who was a Scot, btw), although my trade is now in the bracket of the most dangerous job in Britain, I loved shooting shit with my Scottish neighbours gun and would love to have an open back pick-up to aid my travels. Plus I'm very partial to blaring Johnny Cash at full blast when I can.

[la bombe]

I believe "White trash" is the most racist term employed in this thread so far, and it came from a "non-racist" ???

Nah, I'm 'white trash' myself so it's not racist :rolleyes:

[Andorran]

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

I understand now -as long as we're criticizing Whites and White Americans in particular, anything goes. But lay off everyone else.

Honestly, I find that my responses towards people like you come off way more racist than my personal beliefs, mostly due to the fact that on a site of this nature, I assume a certain amount of enlightenment from people. And I don't expect them to parrot the same PC slop found in the more degenerate mainstream. Call it an over-reaction if you want.

I'll never accept someone from Portugal who boasts 100% Portugese lineage telling me how lucky we are to have millions of illegal Mexicans in our country, however.

[Andorran]

Nah, I'm 'white trash' myself so it's not racist :rolleyes:

No, you're not trash either. Just a product of the age which tells us everyday how we're not allowed to have pride in anything - not very good for self-esteem.

[Trog]

You don't love family?

The love of family is a universal thing. Though Scots value kin and ancestry a great deal, so too do Italians and Poles, for example. But we don't love family to the same extent rednecks do:p



Speaking as an Englishman, Brit and European, I can safely say that I do work my "ass off" to support the needs of my family (when work is forthcoming, of course), I drove tractors and sheared Sheep when younger, I used to chop down trees, sometimes with my neighbour (who was a Scot, btw), although my trade is now in the bracket of the most dangerous job in Britain, I loved shooting shit with my Scottish neighbours gun and would love to have an open back pick-up to aid my travels. Plus I'm very partial to blaring Johnny Cash at full blast when I can.

I do not associate with any of these things and I don't know many Scots or Irish who do, except the farming things which again, is universal and not specifically reserved for people of a certain background.

Guns are not a British thing, our police don't even carry them, long may it stay that way.

We don't need pick ups, our days for kidnapping the English and tying them to the back of our horse and trailing them are long gone (you'll be glad to know).

[la bombe]

No, you're not trash either. Just a product of the age which tells us everyday how we're not allowed to have pride in anything - not very good for self-esteem.

Personally, I don't have pride in things I can't control (like my race). And I don't see anything bad about being white or poor or even 'poor white trash'. I just don't see it as a justification for idiocy.

[Barreldriver]

The songs you play on it won't change the fact that it wouldn't exist if it weren't for African-American slaves. And considering there ARE African-Americans, Native Americans and those of mixed descent in Appalachia, I doubt that is the sole contribution. As a HBF member born and raised in Appalachia once told you "there's kneegroes in them hills".

According to the Census Bureau Appalachia was 91% white as of 1990, and 88% as of 2000, most of the non-whites being new Mexican immigrants, not blacks, not Injuns.

Second, I will refer you to Suut's post:

"A tool that is used to express ethno-cultural things says nothing about those things expressed. It's the expression that is ethno-cultural."


So grow a brain. And I knew not of any other Appalachian on HBF besides me. Unless you are referring to Jack, he was just Appalachian descendant in part, last I checked he was not part of the group.

[Jamt]

Clear enough for me to confirm that as a Scot, Brit and European, I have no relation to this type of culture - or people.

Trog, . You are a new member at TA and when you started to post here I thought it was great, smart people you are and a Christian who won’t back down in any debate. Now I don’t think you are that great, instead I scroll past half of your posts without reading them. The “o so” clever stuff with little or no substance and sometimes a meanness towards others is hard to understand and so on. You have the skull size to contribute instead of smarty pants stuff.

[Lady L]

Where did I say that? Oh wait, that's right, I didn't. I think it's pretty obvious that America has a strong European base, but it's also pretty obvious that there's quite a lot of non-European influence which makes perfect sense considering that as Americans we are NOT Europeans.

Good to see you clarify your statement. ;) Thanks. :) You mean I'm not European ...?!?!?! Thanks for that clarification as well. I'd be lost without you. :thumbs up


We have our own identity and place in the world (not to mention completely different demographics), regardless of how much of a genetic and cultural input Europeans may have had.

You can learn from me and your bolded statement by me telling you yes, we have our own identity and place in the world, as individuals. I live how I wanna live regardless of what kind of main stream culture may be going on outside my window.


And for you to say that the South isn't influenced by non-whites is ridiculous. Do you forget that you live in the part of the country with the highest proportion of African-Americans anywhere in the nation? The South's identity is dependent on the various struggles resulting from slavery and it's aftermath.

I never said the South wasn't influenced by Negroes ...I said the town I live in wasn't. ( we have very few blacks and illegals ) Hello! I don't live in Mississippi or Atlanta ;) nor would I ever. :rolleyes2: But at the same time the South is still influenced by its history with slavery etc.... :)

I don't need to learn about the South's history from you. :)


As for your characterization of Southern Living, 1/2 of my family is from the South and I can't say they conform to your standards. While they may be country-music loving, white-trash country bumpkins, they're def not racists.

I just love it when the only insult one can think of is white trash when referring to a Southerner. :thumbs up Anyway, my family is far from white trash. 1 we don't live in a trailer 2 I didn't marry my cousin and 3 I'm not a white girl in an interracial relationship/those 3 things define white trash around here. :)

I don't care about your racist remarks...btw. :) I'm proud that I don't find Lil Wayne sexy or his music. I'm proud that I don't wear bling bling or gold teeth, I'm proud that I married a Viking! :D I'm proud I have 2 little blond beauties, I'm proud I live in an area without a heaping amount of blacks and illegal Mexicans! I'm proud my children can grow up in a place like this. I'm proud I find interracial relationships unappetizing. Because if I didn't have all these things I just be some white girl trying to lecture folks about how bad having a little racial views in your life is ...:rolleyes2: All those " your racist!!! " views make me sick. That's the beginning of sooooooooooooooooo many problems. :)
And our multi cultural surroundings...:(



The songs you play on it won't change the fact that it wouldn't exist if it weren't for African-American slaves.

That's right. :) Back then one of the main jobs of the slaves was to provide their owners with entertainment. Perhaps thats why so many blacks are good at entertaining us in sports singing and dancing. :p

[Barreldriver]

Also, as far as I'm concerned since I'm the only one in this thread that has posted academic source material, I feel it safe to assume that I have the most credible posts in regards to the ongoing debate as I was able to successfully back up my postings with cited material, unlike others who seem to just pull shit out of their asses and call it a valid point.

[Kadu]

I understand now -as long as we're criticizing Whites and White Americans in particular, anything goes. But lay off everyone else.

I never criticised White Americans, i only questioned the "nativism" concept as the Anglo-Saxon establishment proposes it.


Honestly, I find that my responses towards people like you come off way more racist than my personal beliefs, mostly due to the fact that on a site of this nature, I assume a certain amount of enlightenment from people. And I don't expect them to parrot the same PC slop found in the more degenerate mainstream. Call it an over-reaction if you want.

Enlightment?! We were discussing an important essay about the subject and even without laying an eye on it you started ranting to me.
If you think you are going to be sheltered here you are not as i am going to keep voicing my opinion in this forum.



I'll never accept someone from Portugal who boasts 100% Portugese lineage telling me how lucky we are to have millions of illegal Mexicans in our country, however.

Sure, but this is a discussion forum, we are here to debate things. It's an interactive process you know.

[Trog]

Trog, . You are a new member at TA and when you started to post here I thought it was great, smart people you are and a Christian who won’t back down in any debate. Now I don’t think you are that great, instead I scroll past half of your posts without reading them. The “o so” clever stuff with little or no substance and sometimes a meanness towards others is hard to understand and so on. You have the skull size to contribute instead of smarty pants stuff.

This kind of post is what leads threads away from the subject. This is not about me, this thread, so you should have directed this to my pm box or another thread.

For the record, I gave up due to the reception I received from certain posters. It seems there is an expectation that I should subscribe to certain ideologies before I am accepted. Well, sorry that's not my style.

This (http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=6860854372894347704&hl=en&fs=true" style="width:400px;height:326px" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess) is how I imagine members in here.

[Jamt]

This kind of post is what leads threads away from the subject. This is not about me, this thread, so you should have directed this to my pm box or another thread.

For the record, I gave up due to the reception I received from certain posters. It seems there is an expectation that I should subscribe to certain ideologies before I am accepted. Well, sorry that's not my style.

There is no expectation that anybody subscribe to a certain ideology. Jesus Christ some on AF are heathens, a few might even be neo nazis. Tell us stuff about the history and present of the Irish in Scotland instead and Eunuch should make posts about the secularization and the growth of Islam of GB and Ireland and Lut about the stricter immigration laws in Denmark and the current bande-krig in Copenhagen. I would love you if you did. But please keep your distain for us proletarian, racists to yourself for a while.

[Trog]

There is no expectation that anybody subscribe to a certain ideology. Jesus Christ some on AF are heathens, a few might even be neo nazis. Tell us stuff about the history and present of the Irish in Scotland instead and Eunuch should make posts about the secularization and the growth of Islam of GB and Ireland and Lut about the stricter immigration laws in Denmark and the current bande-krig in Copenhagen. I would love you if you did. But please keep your distain for us idiot proletarian, racists to yourself for a while.

Comments noted, Mr Cowell. :rolleyes:

[SuuT]

Really good site about 'American' Ethnic Geography. (http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/geo/courses/geo200/usa_maps.html)


Basic Ancestry break-down of the U.S. by County (self-identification):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.jpg

[Damião de Góis]

Not in Braga, but in Porto and surroundings it is. If we speak specifically of that kind of criminality of course.
Just google "gang do minho", "gang do multibanco" or "Pidá" to find out more about it.

That's funny because i used to work with a guy from Porto and he was complaining about how different Lisbon was from Porto in terms of criminality. He said Lisbon was much more dangerous and he told us some things that happened to him when he arrived in Lisbon.
Of course one of the main differences between Lisbon and Porto is the amount of immigrants...

[Brännvin]

Why are only whites "Trash" in US? Is it racist to say Negroes trash too? :D

[Barreldriver]

Really good site about 'American' Ethnic Geography. (http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/geo/courses/geo200/usa_maps.html)


Basic Ancestry break-down of the U.S. by County (self-identification):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.jpg

And go figure, my area of Appalachia is virtually absent of African and any other non-Europid type. So much for them kneegrow's in them hills.

[Kadu]

That's funny because i used to work with a guy from Porto and he was complaining about how different Lisbon was from Porto in terms of criminality. He said Lisbon was much more dangerous and he told us some things that happened to him when he arrived in Lisbon.
Of course one of the main differences between Lisbon and Porto is the amount of immigrants...

Way off-topic but anyway...

Petty theft is indeed higher in Lisbon but here in the North we have a much more structured, sofisticated and organised type(gang-mafia-like) of crime and this one is mostly done by Portuguese.

[Goidelic]

Surprisingly, the banjo is used in Irish music as well. I guess Irish music is African influenced? This is a disgrace as the Banjo is a Celtic instrument with origins in the Caucasian Middle East. That's right I forgot the banjo was invented by Caucasians in the Middle East who brought the instrument to Africa. If you go to a Congo village in Africa, & then travel back in time 1,000 years to 1009 C.E. it would be the same, maybe some trees & plants would be grown but that's about it. Ever heard of major Sub-Saharan African civilizations?

Everyone whines, cries & talks about Black African Slavery in the U.S. What about significant Irish Slavery in the New World? It would be nice to mention the very important Celtic culture of Appalachia as well as their immigrants which formed its unique Celtic diaspora.

"We are interested in preserving and celebrating Celtic culture in the Appalachian region of the United States, where so many Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and Cornish immigrants settled and where their descendants live today."

"The cornerstone of Appalachian music and its progenitors Old-Time, Bluegrass, and Country Music, like its Celtic and British predecessor, is the ballad."

http://www.leyline.org/cra/logo128trans.gif

"There were more Irish Catholics in the Thirteen Colonies of 1776 than previously thought. Many were indentured servants who disappeared into places like Appalachia and since they were not well educated in their religion and since the American Catholic Church was short on clergy many became Protestants"

"The traditions of the Celtic peoples together constitute the single most dynamic ethnic influence on Appalachian music. An estimated 70 percent of the early settlers on the Appalachian frontier emigrated from historically Celtic countries (Scotland, Ireland, and Wales). Many of these settlers intermarried with people from different ethnicities, thus exchanging cultural traditions and widely influencing Appalachian music. Scottish and Irish settlers brought the baroque fiddle to Appalachia"

"The fiddle was especially valued in Scotland when bagpipes were outlawed after the Scottish defeat at the battle of Culloden in 1746."

"The Irish influence on Appalachian music became more prominent after people escaping the potato blight in Ireland immigrated to the United States in the 1840s. Soon many Appalachian musicians began playing variations of traditional Irish hornpipes, reels, and jigs."

"Although their influence in the mountains has been minimized, there
is evidence to show that many Catholic Irish also settled in Appalachia. The
first wave oX Irish Catholic immigrants to the new world came in the early
1600's."

"No matter what the degree of intermarriage, Irish as well as Scottish culture is evident in
the Southern mountains, especially in the fiddling tradition."

"A number of fugitive Irish indentured servants and settlers made
their way into the mountains. Working conditions were harsh and servants
were often treated worse than slaves. Many servants were prisoners who
traded their sentences for indentures. Some saw their arrival in America as a
chance for freedom and escaped as soon as possible. The majority of these
Irish Catholic fugitives fled to the mountains, where they could live in
relative anonymity. Although the Catholic Irish tried to change their
identity, they managed to spread their culture throughout the south."

"The Catholic Irish have been underestimated in importance for
several reasons. First, those escaping their indenture went to the mountains
in order to become invisible. Many lived under assumed, often Scottish or
German, names. Also, 'most Irish Catholics who came to America in this
period converted to Protestantism."

"Irish settlers in the South, especially those who arrived in the
seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, suffered little cultural shock; nominal
Catholics at most they mixed with the Scotch-Irish and Scots--people with
whom they shared traditions and ways for centuries--fcuded and stole each
other's livestock, just as they had always done, and helped to spread Celtic
culture across the southern backcountry."

"In addition to these early settlers, Irish immigrants during the "main
wave" of Irish immigration in the mid-nineteenth century made their mark
on Appalachia!, culture. Few of these Irish settled in the mountains, but they
interacted with Appalachian people as they built railroads and worked in coal
mines in the South. Irishmen worked alongside mountain men in the West
Virginia coal mines and on the railroad lines that stretched across the South.
(Orr, 1994) Several travel <lCCDunts and diaries speak of Irish fiddlers playing
during breaks from work. It is probable that Irish and Appalachian fiddlers
who lobored side by side shared much information about their respective
traditions. "

"As can be seen from the immigration patterns of the South, the
Appalachians owe not only their historical foundations, but their cultural
institutions to people of Celtic heritage. This Celtic culture can be seen in
almost every aspect of Southern life. Methods of herding, farming, and
building can all be traces to the native ways of Ireland and Scotland."

"The fiddling traditions of Ireland"Scotiand, and Appalachia have been
passed down aurally for hundreds of years. "

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Tf7A13_Ex8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKPGyT5x_Qc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kskEIzqP7eM

[SuuT]

And go figure, my area of Appalachia is virtually absent of African and any other non-Europid type. So much for them kneegrow's in them hills.

What interested me most about the map was how strongly those in the South self-identify as 'American', but I suppose that makes sense from an ethno-historical perspective.

Otherwise, if I were to take this map as the only account, I'd have to say welcome to New Germany.

[Allenson]

You can see by that map that northern New England is getting the proverbial squeeze play between Frenchie Cannucks from Quebec & Irish Paddys from Boston. And they're both Catholic! :eek: ;)

[Osweo]

The banjo originated in the Middle East for one, and was brought to Africa by Muslims, then to America.
Is it really so cut and dried a question? It doesn't matter much, I'm just curious.

So yes the instrument itself is non-white, but the way it is played is based on old British ballads. So get real. And that is the extent of non-white influence in Appalachia, a banjo, that isn't even played like the Africans would, but rather played to accompany fiddle for songs based on British ballads, and we all know how negroid British ballads are.
I'm glad you brought this up, and the curious should be referred here, specifically:
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~ug97/albion/cumb2.html#music

These songs sound so African huh.
These ballads for fact derived from British trends, not African, not Injun, not anything else.
I was reading the above link last night, and quite taken aback was I to find that I KNOW most of these songs. It says Barbara Allen was the second favourite ballad - and it was mine as a boy. As for the first song, the Brown Girl, I don't know it as such, but in my head it fits perfectly to the tune of 'Sir Eglamore', and many of the phrases used in it, as well as the general plot outline, are identical to those of many other ballads I know from England.

For a Briton to say that they feel no connection with this sister culture across the sea just shows how poorly they know their own traditional culture.

I'm sorry, but I simply can't feel 'alien' a man who knows the same songs as I, shares a Northumbrian heritage and who often even bears the same surname. A few people with my surname have done rather well in America, and I feel pleased for them, knowing that not too many generations separate us. There is a ridge named after us in the Ozarks even, that I wouldn't mind having a look at some day! I am also in touch with third cousins from a more recent early 20th Century phase of immigration. These links are not negligible or merely curiosities for folklorists.

[Kadu]

And go figure, my area of Appalachia is virtually absent of African and any other non-Europid type. So much for them kneegrow's in them hills.

Actually there is a significant percentage of African Americans in Northeastern Ohio according to this map given by Suut.

Percent Black or African American (http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/pics/geo200/pct_black.pdf)

[Barreldriver]

Actually there is a significant percentage of African Americans in Northeastern Ohio according to this map given by Suut.

Percent Black or African American (http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/pics/geo200/pct_black.pdf)

My kin aren't from Northeast Ohio genius, that's just where I live at the moment, and Sharon Township [Medina County] (where I live), and The University of Akron [Summit County] (where I go to school) are not Appalachian. :rolleyes:

My home is Overton County, Tennessee which lies on the Appalachian Plateau, which according to the map Suut posted has virtually no non-Europid listed, and my kin come from the Appalachian Plateau and the Piedmont, again similar demographics.

[Barreldriver]

And I am well aware that negroes are very populous in Northeast Ohio. They try to bum smokes and cash off me daily.

[la bombe]

LOL @ people saying I'm racist because I used the term white trash. Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel. I wasn't aware using mocking, self-referential terms directed at yourself and your family constituted "racism".



I don't care about your racist remarks...btw. :) I'm proud that I don't find Lil Wayne sexy or his music. I'm proud that I don't wear bling bling or gold teeth, I'm proud that I married a Viking! :D I'm proud I have 2 little blond beauties, I'm proud I live in an area without a heaping amount of blacks and illegal Mexicans! I'm proud my children can grow up in a place like this. I'm proud I find interracial relationships unappetizing. Because if I didn't have all these things I just be some white girl trying to lecture folks about how bad having a little racial views in your life is ...:rolleyes2: All those " your racist!!! " views make me sick. That's the beginning of sooooooooooooooooo many problems. :)
And our multi cultural surroundings...:(


Yeah, good for you, have fun in that well-known lily white utopia called Alabama.

[Kadu]

My home is Overton County, Tennessee which lies on the Appalachian Plateau, which according to the map Suut posted has virtually no non-Europid listed, and my kin come from the Appalachian Plateau and the Piedmont, again similar demographics.

I'm sorry for my mistake. Eastern Tenessee has indeed a low African American presence.
But those regions you mentioned are not absent especially Southwestern Tenessee where there is a strong presence.

[Barreldriver]

I'm sorry for my mistake. Eastern Tenessee has indeed a low African American presence.
But those regions you mentioned are not absent especially Southwestern Tenessee where there is a strong presence.

Southwestern Tennessee is loaded with non-whites. Luckily they're not Appalachian. :D Appalachia stops about midway across Middle Tennessee.

[Lady L]

Yeah, good for you, have fun in that well-known lily white utopia called Alabama.

I will, Thanks. :thumbs up

[Stefan]

Really good site about 'American' Ethnic Geography. (http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/geo/courses/geo200/usa_maps.html)


Basic Ancestry break-down of the U.S. by County (self-identification):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.jpg

Talk about about irony. My county of Pennsylvania, Luzerne, is one of the two that aren't what seems to be predominately German. I don't know what the "other" could be. I know the cities differ immensely here. One of the cities is swarmed with illegal Mexicans, the other blacks, and mine, Europeans(mostly Polish some German and Irish). These are the only three large municipalities, or cities, in my county.

[Osweo]

Everyone whines, cries & talks about Black African Slavery in the U.S. What about significant Irish Slavery in the New World?
Hang on a sec; doesn't everyone ALSO whine, cry and talk about the poor oppressed Irish, too? :D

It would be nice to mention the very important Celtic culture of Appalachia as well as their immigrants which formed its unique Celtic diaspora.
I'd love to see a random list of surnames of Appalachia, to determine the real scale of this 'Celtic' diaspora in relation to the English and Borders element. I strongly suspect that Celtomania is as important here as actuality. It's simply not fashionable enough to be from Northumberland...

"There were more Irish Catholics in the Thirteen Colonies of 1776 than previously thought. Many were indentured servants who disappeared into places like Appalachia and since they were not well educated in their religion and since the American Catholic Church was short on clergy many became Protestants"
God damn. If we'd been stricter HERE against Roman clergy, we might have been so lucky too... :cry2

"The traditions of the Celtic peoples together constitute the single most dynamic ethnic influence on Appalachian music.
The distortions, exaggerations and downright lies begin...

If we're talking about the 1700s, Gaelic will have been familiar still to many Irish. Where is the Gaelic influence? Certainly not in the song stock, if Barbara Allen is at all representative.

(Indeed, the older English-language 'Irish folksongs' are near purely English in origin anyway. Irish old songs, unsurprisingly, were in Irish. The placenames are occasionally adapted, but that's usually about it. The trend continues today when the song 'Shoals of Herring' by Ewan McColl (a Mancunian of Scotch descent) magically transformed into 'Shores of Erin', and is described as 'origin; trad. Irish'... :p:rolleyes::mad:)

An estimated 70 percent of the early settlers on the Appalachian frontier emigrated from historically Celtic countries (Scotland, Ireland, and Wales).
But of course, as many of us know very well, 'Irish' often meant Borders folk who had been in Erin for a mere two generations or so... :rolleyes: And Scotland isn't the 'Celtic' land that modern Celtomaniacs like to make it out to be. If they came from Roxburghshire, Berwickshire, Dumfriesshire, Selkirkshire or Haddingtonshire, they came from a Germanic culture. Even the Lothians, Clyde valley and Galloway were not as 'Celtic' as they had once been at that date.

"The Irish influence on Appalachian music became more prominent after people escaping the potato blight in Ireland immigrated to the United States in the 1840s. Soon many Appalachian musicians began playing variations of traditional Irish hornpipes, reels, and jigs."
All three of those dances are NOT Irish in origin. They are universal western European or British.

"Although their influence in the mountains has been minimized,
:chin:

there is evidence to show that many Catholic Irish also settled in Appalachia.
Hehe, WHAT is this evidence? :p

Is it not more true to say that the Appalachian identity had largely been formed before 1845? Surely there wasn't much free land left by then.


"The Catholic Irish have been underestimated in importance for
several reasons. First, those escaping their indenture went to the mountains
in order to become invisible. Many lived under assumed, often Scottish or
German, names. Also, 'most Irish Catholics who came to America in this
period converted to Protestantism."
Then HOW has it been possible for historians to even identify them? If it's only about some fiddle airs, that's not good enough. They could have been learnt by Scotch Irish in Derry.

"In addition to these early settlers, Irish immigrants during the "main
wave" of Irish immigration in the mid-nineteenth century made their mark
on Appalachia!, culture. Few of these Irish settled in the mountains, but they
interacted with Appalachian people as they built railroads and worked in coal
mines in the South.
Almost as relevant as the African slaves then! :rolleyes:

"As can be seen from the immigration patterns of the South, the
Appalachians owe not only their historical foundations, but their cultural
institutions to people of Celtic heritage. This Celtic culture can be seen in
almost every aspect of Southern life. Methods of herding, farming, and
building can all be traces to the native ways of Ireland and Scotland."
Downright falsehoods...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting some didn't help populate the area, but to go ON about them like this is laughable.

[Goidelic]

Hang on a sec; doesn't everyone ALSO whine, cry and talk about the poor oppressed Irish, too? :D

I'd love to see a random list of surnames of Appalachia, to determine the real scale of this 'Celtic' diaspora in relation to the English and Borders element. I strongly suspect that Celtomania is as important here as actuality. It's simply not fashionable enough to be from Northumberland...

God damn. If we'd been stricter HERE against Roman clergy, we might have been so lucky too... :cry2

The distortions, exaggerations and downright lies begin...

If we're talking about the 1700s, Gaelic will have been familiar still to many Irish. Where is the Gaelic influence? Certainly not in the song stock, if Barbara Allen is at all representative.

(Indeed, the older English-language 'Irish folksongs' are near purely English in origin anyway. Irish old songs, unsurprisingly, were in Irish. The placenames are occasionally adapted, but that's usually about it. The trend continues today when the song 'Shoals of Herring' by Ewan McColl (a Mancunian of Scotch descent) magically transformed into 'Shores of Erin', and is described as 'origin; trad. Irish'... :p:rolleyes::mad:)

But of course, as many of us know very well, 'Irish' often meant Borders folk who had been in Erin for a mere two generations or so... :rolleyes: And Scotland isn't the 'Celtic' land that modern Celtomaniacs like to make it out to be. If they came from Roxburghshire, Berwickshire, Dumfriesshire, Selkirkshire or Haddingtonshire, they came from a Germanic culture. Even the Lothians, Clyde valley and Galloway were not as 'Celtic' as they had once been at that date.

All three of those dances are NOT Irish in origin. They are universal western European or British.

:chin:

Hehe, WHAT is this evidence? :p

Is it not more true to say that the Appalachian identity had largely been formed before 1845? Surely there wasn't much free land left by then.

Then HOW has it been possible for historians to even identify them? If it's only about some fiddle airs, that's not good enough. They could have been learnt by Scotch Irish in Derry.

Almost as relevant as the African slaves then! :rolleyes:

Downright falsehoods...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting some didn't help populate the area, but to go ON about them like this is laughable.

I should say most Appalachians are a composition of Celto-Germanic British Isles diaspora. Mostly Ulster Scottish (Lowland Scots, Gaelic - Celto-Germanic), English (Germanic) & some Gaelic Irish (Celtic).;) with possible distant German & French Huguenot ancestors. Happy now! :p

[Osweo]

Talk about about irony. My county of Pennsylvania, Luzerne, is one of the two that aren't what seems to be predominately German. I don't know what the "other" could be.

On the right of the map, it says that 'Luzerne County' is majority Polish. Is it a mining area?

[Zyklop]

On the right of the map, it says that 'Luzerne County' is majority Polish. Is it a mining area?
Or a centre of the automobile industry?

[Goidelic]

Where did I say that? Oh wait, that's right, I didn't. I think it's pretty obvious that America has a strong European base, but it's also pretty obvious that there's quite a lot of non-European influence which makes perfect sense considering that as Americans we are NOT Europeans. We have our own identity and place in the world (not to mention completely different demographics), regardless of how much of a genetic and cultural input Europeans may have had.

And for you to say that the South isn't influenced by non-whites is ridiculous. Do you forget that you live in the part of the country with the highest proportion of African-Americans anywhere in the nation? The South's identity is dependent on the various struggles resulting from slavery and it's aftermath.

As for your characterization of Southern Living, 1/2 of my family is from the South and I can't say they conform to your standards. While they may be country-music loving, white-trash country bumpkins, they're def not racists.



The songs you play on it won't change the fact that it wouldn't exist if it weren't for African-American slaves. And considering there ARE African-Americans, Native Americans and those of mixed descent in Appalachia, I doubt that is the sole contribution. As a HBF member born and raised in Appalachia once told you "there's kneegroes in them hills".

Why are you praising those monsters with crime rate through the ceiling that keeps skyrocketing? What significant contributions have they done for America and the rest of the world? Maybe peanut butter, but that was invented by a European apparently as well. The instruments they used for their "Jazz" music were also European inventions. Last week my uncle's mother in law got mugged by a triracial puerto rican maybe we should be mentioning their cultural impact on Appalachia? Please, the Celto-Germanic immigration & culture wholly sums up Appalachia & the South. Calling one of our members "white trash & racist" isn't helpful, at least Lyfing is racially aware and has beautiful Northern European looking children.

[Ulf]

On the right of the map, it says that 'Luzerne County' is majority Polish. Is it a mining area?

Nothing but coal crackers up north, all Poles.

[Stefan]

On the right of the map, it says that 'Luzerne County' is majority Polish. Is it a mining area?

Yep, it is a mining area. The city that is now swarmed with Mexicans, Hazleton, was a big source of mining. Also there are many small little villages like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckley_Miners%27_Village). I actually went on a field trip there in third grade. North of here, in Lackawanna county, especially Scranton, there is a lot of mining as well. My Mom comes from Jim Thorpe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Thorpe,_Pennsylvania) though, which is in Carbon County. A very nice historical town. My grandmother still lives there.

[Ulf]

I guess I lucked out in having my own ethnicity within 'American culture'.

The only places in PA worth a damn. ;)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ce/Map_of_PA_Dutch_Region.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7a/Pctpagerman.png

[Trog]

Some research:

Title The Roots of Appalachian English: Scotch-Irish or Southern British? (http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/custom/portlets/recordDetails/detailmini.jsp?_nfpb=true&_&ERICExtSearch_SearchValue_0=ED323066&ERICExtSearch_SearchType_0=no&accno=ED323066)

It appears they're mainly from Northern Ireland and England. Which explains why I could find no identifiable continuity with them.

[Electronic God-Man]

Nothing but coal crackers up north, all Poles.

:rolleyes: :D

My entire family comes from Sullivan County (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_County,_Pennsylvania) and Susquehanna County (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susquehanna_County,_Pennsylvania). I do have a Lithuanian great-grandmother, but most of the people up there are Pennsylvania Germans or English (who moved down from New England and New York about 200 years ago). A good number of Poles though. It's not all mines, either. Tons of farms...although the whole area is becoming depopulated in general.

And even the Deitsch work in those mines!

Susquehanna

16.1% were of German, 15.4% English, 15.1% Irish, 10.6% American (read mostly Anglo!), 8.6% Italian and 7.7% Polish ancestry according to Census 2000.

Sullivan

33.8% were of German, 14.7% Irish, 9.5% English, 7.5% American (read mostly Anglo!), 5.9% Polish and 5.6% Italian ancestry according to Census 2000.

[Stefan]

I've always had the idea that there were mostly Irish and Italians around the PA/NY border. Well that is what my American Cultures teacher from Wyoming county described it(she was Irish). She told us a story about how when she was a kid, there were two sides of the town she lived in, the Irish side and the Italian side. I'm sure all of PA is mostly German anyway though.

[Ulf]

:rolleyes: :D

My entire family comes from Sullivan County (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_County,_Pennsylvania) and Susquehanna County (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susquehanna_County,_Pennsylvania). I do have a Lithuanian great-grandmother, but most of the people up there are Pennsylvania Germans or English (who moved down from New England and New York about 200 years ago). A good number of Poles though.

And even the Deitsch work in those mines!

Susquehanna


Sullivan


They all act like those dirty Slavs in the mines. I drove through the heart of coal region not too long ago, and after I got out the other side I felt like Andy Dufresne in the Shawshank Redemption after he crawled through the sewage pipe and stood in the rain.

I've talked with people from the coal region, tell them I'm PA German and most of them ask me if I'm 'one of them Amish.'

There's nothing good about that region.

[Electronic God-Man]

I've talked with people from the coal region, tell them I'm PA German and most of them ask me if I'm 'one of them Amish.'

There's nothing good about that region.

I'm sorry they hurt your cute little feelings. :(

[Treffie]

And go figure, my area of Appalachia is virtually absent of African and any other non-Europid type. So much for them kneegrow's in them hills.

With all due respect, Barrel. The map states the areas with `ancestry with largest population in county`. It doesn't show the other ethnicities that are in the minority.

[Osweo]

It appears they're mainly from Northern Ireland and England. Which explains why I could find no identifiable continuity with them.
I suppose you mean 'sympathy' or 'kinship', rather. Do Clydesiders still have little to do with Borders folk? Perhaps the watershed is still the most significant cultural as well as geographical border in the Lowlands?
http://www.watershedepic.org.uk/assets/route.gif

That study you link to is interesting, but the comparative tables have only SC Scotland, IR Northern Ireland, S BRI Southern Britain, AP Appalachian, MID Midland USA, and S South USA.

I would have thought that it would have been imperative methodologically to have had a category NB Northumbrian and BSC Borders Scotch. :shrug: A shame, but at least he's made a start... I saw four or five that would fit that at least, and I'm no expert in the far northern dialects. I only really know Tyneside, Durham, West Yorkshire and South Lancashire. "Scottish and Northern British", he says... :confused: Synonymous, surely? I wish he'd explained some of the features more.

Has anyone ever heard before of these discontented Confederate veterans who moved to Brazil, some 20,000 of them? :eek:

[Óttar]

Has anyone ever heard before of these discontented Confederate veterans who moved to Brazil, some 20,000 of them? :eek:
Yes. Los Confederados.

[Barreldriver]

With all due respect, Barrel. The map states the areas with `ancestry with largest population in county`. It doesn't show the other ethnicities that are in the minority.

Take it from someone who's actually spent their life in that region, the map is an accurate portrayal. There were zero non-whites around the parts where I grew up with the exception of one Latino family that moved in around '98.

I fail to see how it doesn't show minorities? As it has minorities in the gradients for other counties and states. My particular region is one of the most homogeneous in regards to ethnicity on that map and in real life.

[Treffie]

Take it from someone who's actually spent their life in that region, the map is an accurate portrayal. There were zero non-whites around the parts where I grew up with the exception of one Latino family that moved in around '98.

I believe you, don't worry :D

I was saying that the map gives the ethnicities that are in the majority in each county.

[Trog]

I suppose you mean 'sympathy' or 'kinship', rather. Do Clydesiders still have little to do with Borders folk? Perhaps the watershed is still the most significant cultural as well as geographical border in the Lowlands?
http://www.watershedepic.org.uk/assets/route.gif

I've never heard of the 'watershed' in Scotland; but I accept that Scots from different regions are somewhat different from each other in mannerisms, language, politics, beliefs, even history. An example of this would be the village, Larkhall (I assume Eoin will know about this). Larkhall (http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/article1872324.ece)is very pro-Protestant, pro-Ulster; even large shopping chains with green logos have to alter their shop face if they wish to have a store due to the inhabitants' intense hatred for the colour, green. Larkhall is like a mini-Ulster. The people speak differently, think and act differently. Few communities in Scotland are exactly the same and given that I do live in an area with the highest immigrations from Ireland, Italy, Poland and Lithuanian, then of course my area will differ from others. Some differences will be subtle, others even more apparent.

Glasgow and Edinburgh people differ too from one another. Even the climate and landscape between east and west is remarkable. So that is why I cannot understand Americans from the south claiming strong cultural links to Scotland, when even Scots differ between themselves.

Perhaps there is a genetic element too, given that the east is racially more Germanic than the west and that many western Scots are more native British and have Irish influence.


That study you link to is interesting, but the comparative tables have only SC Scotland, IR Northern Ireland, S BRI Southern Britain, AP Appalachian, MID Midland USA, and S South USA.

I would have thought that it would have been imperative methodologically to have had a category NB Northumbrian and BSC Borders Scotch. :shrug: A shame, but at least he's made a start... I saw four or five that would fit that at least, and I'm no expert in the far northern dialects. I only really know Tyneside, Durham, West Yorkshire and South Lancashire. "Scottish and Northern British", he says... :confused: Synonymous, surely? I wish he'd explained some of the features more.

SCOTCH??? Scotch is a drink. Hey you can carry on claiming them, I have no objections.

[Jägerstaffel]

I think an important thing to keep in mind for those of you who bring up the presence of 'non-whites' in or around 'white' communities in the US is that most of those communities don't overlap. Just because I see an Asian man or black woman at the grocery store does not mean that I have much to do with him or her other than standing in front or behind of them in the check out line.

And for those 'whites' that do become part of that community (and have children with them), they tend to cease to be seen as 'white' by the rest of us. Subconscious (or conscious for some) racism most likely. No one talks about Barack Obama as the mixed white/black President of the US. They refer to him as the BLACK President of the US.

[Trog]

I think an important thing to keep in mind for those of you who bring up the presence of 'non-whites' in or around 'white' communities in the US is that most of those communities don't overlap. Just because I see an Asian man or black woman at the grocery store does not mean that I have much to do with him or her other than standing in front or behind of them in the check out line.

And for those 'whites' that do become part of that community (and have children with them), they tend to cease to be seen as 'white' by the rest of us. Subconscious (or conscious for some) racism most likely. No one talks about Barack Obama as the mixed white/black President of the US. They refer to him as the BLACK President of the US.

Identifying native American history seems a popular things these days with 'white' Americans. That's just a perception from across the pond. How accurate is this, and is it really just a fashion statement?

[Electronic God-Man]

Identifying native American history seems a popular things these days with 'white' Americans. That's just a perception from across the pond. How accurate is this, and is it really just a fashion statement?

You mean Indian ancestry? Or do you mean White Americans dressing up like Indians (most of whom claim to be part Indian anyway)?

In either case, it's just bullshit. There are people that do those things and it's mainly because they think it is cool to be something exotic yet not something that is as taboo as say being an octoroon (1/8 African).