The Germanicness of France [SPLIT from the Trolling thread]

[Loxias]

...Matters pertaining to Northern Europe and Germanics?

Who are the Germanics? People who speak a Germanic language? People who can trace their ancesters to a Germanic speaking area? Do you consider people like Aemma or Psychonaut to be Germanic?

[Gooding]

Who are the Germanics? People who speak a Germanic language? People who can trace their ancesters to a Germanic speaking area? Do you consider people like Aemma or Psychonaut to be Germanic?

For what it's worth, both Aemma and Psychonaut's French ancestry hails from Normandy and other areas of Northern France, so why not consider them to be Germanics?

[Loxias]

Normandy has been a romance-speaking area for a thousand years, and while Vikings had an impact on the area, it's still mainly of Northwestern French genetic stock, which is mainly Celtic/autochtonous.
I am not trying to debunk or argue, but I admit that, since I've been here, I am increasingly confused about the meaning of Germanic.

[Gooding]

Normandy has been a romance-speaking area for a thousand years, and while Vikings had an impact on the area, it's still mainly of Northwestern French genetic stock, which is mainly Celtic/autochtonous.
I am not trying to debunk or argue, but I admit that, since I've been here, I am increasingly confused about the meaning of Germanic.

Likewise. I find it increasingly difficult to seperate the Nordic from the Celtic from the Occitan from the French..etc.,etc., so on and so forth..ugh..here's to a massive migraine..

[Loxias]

That's the thing, I am mostly of northern French heritage, with about 1 out 5 ancester coming from Germanic speaking communities (in Alsace-Lorraine), yet I would have never ever considered myself Germanic before coming here. And I don't think most Northern French would consider themselves Germanic either.

[Amapola]

Isn't language a dynamic thing in history of people and places?

[Aemma]

Who are the Germanics? People who speak a Germanic language? People who can trace their ancesters to a Germanic speaking area? Do you consider people like Aemma or Psychonaut to be Germanic?

:rolleyes: Why my bloody name got dragged into this I'll never know. You could have chosen somebody else to pick on Loxias. :P



But yes for the record I do consider myself Germanic, and quite happily and proudly so. :) Perhaps I should say more accurately Celto-Germanic but I do identify with my Germanic ancestry more so than I do with my Celtic one, though I'd fight tooth and nail in its defense as well since my Celtic kin's blood courses equally through my veins.

[Loxias]

I am not picking on you. I am just wondering.
I have been to Normandy plenty of time, I love this place, but I don't find it very Germanic at all. It's quite typically French. And I wouldn't call the French Germanic. We are a people on our own.

[Aemma]

Normandy has been a romance-speaking area for a thousand years, and while Vikings had an impact on the area, it's still mainly of Northwestern French genetic stock, which is mainly Celtic/autochtonous.
I am not trying to debunk or argue, but I admit that, since I've been here, I am increasingly confused about the meaning of Germanic.

But what is so confusing Loxias? Germanic is the same as Teutonic. Germanic peoples inhabited France as well as other parts of Europe. Scandinavian stock did settle and populate significant areas of Northern France, Normandy being one of them. I'm not sure I understand the source of your confusion though. :confused:

[Loxias]

Well, to me, Germanic was : Germany, German-speaking Switzerland, Austria, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, Flanders, England, Iceland, the Faroes...

I've been to 5 of those countries, and they are noticeably culturally and ethnically different.
The only parts of France I would consider Germanic are French Flanders, Alsace and Moselle.

[Gooding]

I am not picking on you. I am just wondering.
I have been to Normandy plenty of time, I love this place, but I don't find it very Germanic at all. It's quite typically French. And I wouldn't call the French Germanic. We are a people on our own.

And to make things more confusing, the hexagone contains a unique national identity whilst retaining several ethnicities:a Gascon's not a Provencal, but both of them are far removed from Normans or Picards.Would a Dauphinois identify with a Savoyard? No, but they are all of the same French people. So maybe the term "French" could be likened to dressing that covers a very good garden salad, with ingredients delicious by themselves, but making a wonderfully new flavor when enjoyed together? Count on Siegfried to bring food into the discussion..:D:thumb001::)

[Aemma]

That's the thing, I am mostly of northern French heritage, with about 1 out 5 ancester coming from Germanic speaking communities (in Alsace-Lorraine), yet I would have never ever considered myself Germanic before coming here. And I don't think most Northern French would consider themselves Germanic either.

You personally don't perhaps but I can name off two other French members here who come from the same area and most ardently DO consider themselves Germanic.

As for most Northern French not considering themselves Germanic, I don't doubt this for a minute. But given the nature of France's republicanism, I'm afraid to say that this is far from suprising.

[Loxias]

And to make things more confusing, the hexagone contains a unique national identity whilst retaining several ethnicities:a Gascon's not a Provencal, but both of them are far removed from Normans or Picards.Would a Dauphinois identify with a Savoyard? No, but they are all of the same French people. So maybe the term "French" could be likened to dressing that covers a very good garden salad, with ingredients delicious by themselves, but making a wonderfully new flavor when enjoyed together? Count on Siegfried to bring food into the discussion..:D:thumb001::)

Hahaha, man, I couldn't say it better! :thumbs up

[Loxias]

You personally don't perhaps but I can name off two other French members here who come from the same area and most ardently DO consider themselves Germanic.

As for most Northern French not considering themselves Germanic, I don't doubt this for a minute. But given the nature of France's republicanism, I'm afraid to say that this is far from suprising.

I don't think republicanism has anything to do with it here. It's mostly a question of remaining Catholic, speaking a romance language, enjoying close cultural ties with Italy since before the Renaissance and counting England and then Germany as our main hereditary enemies. With all of those combined, identifying with Germanic culture and our Germanic genetic heritage (if it really does exist) doesn't come that naturally.

Maybe if I didn't look so ungermanic, I would give it a thought for myself, but now it would just be incongruous.

[Aemma]

I am not picking on you. I am just wondering.
I have been to Normandy plenty of time, I love this place, but I don't find it very Germanic at all. It's quite typically French. And I wouldn't call the French Germanic. We are a people on our own.

My folk came from that area during the 1660's Loxias. It was a different France altogether. Modern France is nothing like the France from which my forebears came. But despite this it does not make me any less a descendant of Norman people nor of French people. Quebec's motto "Je me souviens" speaks more to that than I could ever adequately express.

[Aemma]

I am not picking on you. I am just wondering.
I have been to Normandy plenty of time, I love this place, but I don't find it very Germanic at all. It's quite typically French. And I wouldn't call the French Germanic. We are a people on our own.

Well neither would I. Not all parts of France are Germanic. The South certainly has very little claim to being Germanic in any way shape or form.

[Loxias]

My folk came from that area during the 1660's Loxias. It was a different France altogether. Modern France is nothing like the France from which my forebears came. But despite this it does not make me any less a descendant of Norman people nor of French people. Quebec's motto "Je me souviens" speaks more to that than I could ever adequately express.

I don't think they were culturally nor genetically very difference from Normand people nowadays, except for new settlers from other regions during the last 2 or 3 decades, French population hasn't been that mobile (except when it came to emigrating to Paris).

[Loxias]

Well neither would I. Not all parts of France are Germanic. The South certainly has very little claim to being Germanic in any way shape or form.

So, where would you deliminate the Germanicness of France?

[Psychonaut]

My first thread on this forum (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=329) was about this very topic. I still agree with my conclusion that using migration period meta-ethnic terminology is wholly inappropriate for giving any kind of meaningful label to the French. IMO, I am ethnically Acadian and meta-ethnically Western (or, more correctly, Faustian if you've read Spengler).

[Loxias]

I wasn't so far off with my Western Synthesis, actually :)

[Loxias]

Some might not like it. But, sometimes I think of England as a Frenchified (through the elites) Insular Celtic and Germanic/Scandinavian mix.
And that they are probably the closest to us. If we had to find a meta-ethnicity, it could fit both pretty well.

[Psychonaut]

And that they are probably the closest to us. If we had to find a meta-ethnicity, it could fit both pretty well.

Agreed. I tend to think of the English and French like a binary star system.

[Matritensis]

Well, to me, Germanic was : Germany, German-speaking Switzerland, Austria, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, Flanders, England, Iceland, the Faroes...


Those are the countries that come to my mind if we speak about modern Germanic peoples.Granted,an Austrian will behave very differently from a Swede,for example,and in quite many cases you'll be able to tell them apart by the looks.It has been suggested that Germanic languages crystallized first in Jutland and southern Scandinavia,so genetically maybe Danes,Swedes,Norwegians and northern Germans are the closest relatives to the original Germanic speakers.Caesar claimed that there was a physical difference between the Celtic Gauls and their Germanic foes,the latter being taller and blonder than the former(and more savage too).

[Hussar]

the origins of France......we've spoken about it many times over the yrs. I can't count them.


You see, the problem is one : before asking if France is germanic or not......we should clarify WHAT is an ethnicity. Cultural ? Biological ?

Solved the problem above, we could solve the "french problem".

But hardly we will reach such agreement. Everyone has his own concept and definition of ethnicity, determined by his deep feelings and ideologic priorities. Maybe some germanics here would like to see France as Germanic, forgetting its Romance cultural roots (and focusing on th biologic factor), but doing so....they don't consider how the romance civilization focuse on thecultural factor (language mostly) : most of french population wouldn't cosider itself as "germanic" by any given standard.


I foresee an interesting debate and i will partecipate, but (as i said) i doubt we could solve the "french problem".

Probably it's easier that new kinds of "syncretic definitions" could be introduced here (region by region) : "latinized Celto-germanic"........or "celtized mediterraneans, then germanized", or God knows what.


Loxias, has understood the thing introducing (in his Poll) regional/ethnic subdivision inside the political French spectrum.

[Comte Arnau]

To me, the Germanicness of France is reduced to this:

http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Alsace_map.png

EDIT: Sorry, just seen the other thread, had forgotten the West Flemish in the North-West tip.

[asulf]

just a patch, about our neighbors and friends Belgians. I want to say they are not French at nationals, but Belgian, so for me that I never voted for them.
Nevertheless they are for some Celtic and Germanic or see a mix for some of them. Tribes of the time of Julius Caesar, although most of them reported that they were Germans!
Salian Franks occupied Belgium today.

Regarding the germanicité of French (Frank Reich) land of the Franks, the name speaks for itself with several successive injections.
Apart from the Celtic nations, all tribes who inhabited the Celtic France, the Basque, Aquitaine, and other indigenous peoples, the Germanic contribution is defined this way ....

To all honor any lord 'VAE VICTIS' the Franks of Clovis, defeated the mine at the Battle of Tolbiac in this battle between two great Germanic nations of the time, namely the Franks against the Allamans (my ancestors.) ensuring their victory by the Frankish hegemony ..... and giving birth to our nation a metro station in Paris that name as a sign of remembrance.
anything? It took several campaigns to submit a final ..; :D souls Germanic easily understand what I mean. ;)

It was at that moment was that Lorraine and Alsace Franque remained Allaman protectorate Franc ..
By simply simply administer their enemy they won the peace, and a certain harmony between brothers often have trouble s hear.

Regarding the density Germanic in France it is measured in the 20% level of the population.
Its geographical location is located in the eastern France, northern and Burgundy and Rhone-Alps for the last two is the Germanic tribe of BURGONDES
Don origins are Norwegians who were implanted by displacing Allobroges, preceded Celtic tribe settled in these places.:)

the mother of my children is native Burgundian and I assure you that the look of it one would be acceptable to our sister fox :p;):D
I remain at your disposal for any questions:D

[Hussar]

To me, the Germanicness of France is reduced to this:
http://wpcontent.answers.com/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Alsace_map.png
EDIT: Sorry, just seen the other thread, had forgotten the West Flemish in the North-West tip.


According to the strict linguistic standard, yes. It is so.

[Loyalist]

The French are not entirely Germanic, far from it, but the reality is that the Franks, Normans, and other Germanic tribes had a huge impact upon the base French population, which is itself Celtic. What is of greater concern to me, however, is the way in which certain individuals attempt to paint the French as a solely Romance people, identical to Italians and Spaniards but far removed from Germans and English. That is nonsense, of course, and history demonstrates that the French are a comfortably Celtogermanic people.

[Hussar]

The French are not entirely Germanic, far from it, but the reality is that the Franks, Normans, and other Germanic tribes had a huge impact upon the base French population, which is itself Celtic.



The extent of this "huge" impact has to be estimated more precisely. Lombards migrated in Italy, but Italy still is a romance country.


And about "Celtic"......well, even Celtic could be just partially a biologic definition. The bulk of french population is aborigenal (even pre-celtic as British Isles natives).



What is of greater concern to me, however, is the way in which certain individuals attempt to paint the French as a solely Romance people, identical to Italians and Spaniards but far removed from Germans and English.



Well in the sub-cultural tradition where i live, Italians are associated to French peoples and not to Iberians usually.

[Treffie]

The bulk of french population is aborigenal (even pre-celtic as British Isles natives).



Yes, sounds good. Pre-Celtic, pre-Germanic, pre-Romance.

But I guess we will really never know.

[Matritensis]

What is of greater concern to me, however, is the way in which certain individuals attempt to paint the French as a solely Romance people, identical to Italians and Spaniards but far removed from Germans and English

Well,I think the French are just the result of centuries of stirring a soup with a Celtic base,a Latin recipe,and Germanic spices.They're quite far in character from Germans though,and I think they understand Italians pretty well.

[Treffie]

Well,I think the French are just the result of centuries of stirring a soup with a Celtic base,a Latin recipe,and Germanic spices.They're quite far in character from Germans though,and I think they understand Italians pretty well.

What about those who were there before the Celts?

[Loxias]

They are too hard to determine, and their identity and culture got merged into what defines celticness nowadays.

[Comte Arnau]

What is of greater concern to me, however, is the way in which certain individuals attempt to paint the French as a solely Romance people, identical to Italians and Spaniards but far removed from Germans and English. That is nonsense, of course, and history demonstrates that the French are a comfortably Celtogermanic people.

So the only Romance people are then Central/Southern Italians, since Iberians are a Celto-Iberian people then.

[Treffie]

Some might not like it. But, sometimes I think of England as a Frenchified (through the elites) Insular Celtic and Germanic/Scandinavian mix.
And that they are probably the closest to us. If we had to find a meta-ethnicity, it could fit both pretty well.

I think I agree with you here, but Britain has an aboriginal base, with added layers of Celtic and Germanic and no doubt a sprinkling of other bits from the Roman period.