Do you support non-independent states in the Europe?

[SKYNET]

We are not talking about Kurdistan, Palestine or Taiwan.




Europe




Belarusian People's Republic

http://www.brestregion.com/pictures/europe.gif



Chechen Republic

http://www.warchat.org/pictures/the_chechen_war_map_chechnya.jpg



Irish Republic

http://www.ukstudentlife.com/Travel/Tours/Ireland/Ireland.gif




Republic of Crimea

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/31/article-1392454-0C57EFF000000578-206_468x309.jpg



Republika Srpska

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Republika_srpska_map.png

[Peikko]

I do.

[SKYNET]

Karelia is a part of Finland.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0a/Karelia_in_Russia.svg/800px-Karelia_in_Russia.svg.png

[Tchek]

I don't.
The destruction of nation states benefits who?

[Rudel]

Alsace-Lorraine

http://sturgiswesthistory.weebly.com/uploads/9/5/2/5/9525566/_263850893_orig.jpg
What the holy fuck. Leave my dear Lorraine alone, you sick bastard.

I'm ready to take arms against anyone trying to take our land.

[Visitor_22]

Serbia and Belorus are independent countries.

[SKYNET]

What the holy fuck. Leave my dear Lorraine alone, you sick bastard.



learn history you dumb idiot.

[morski]

Great! More micro, quasi states...

[Rudel]

learn history you dumb idiot.
How about you do ? The part of Lorraine that has ever been contested recently was a small chunk of it, whereas you're putting all of it on your map.

Gotta love complete foreigners telling you about the place you were born and grown.

[SKYNET]

How about you do ? The part of Lorraine that has ever been contested recently was a small chunk of it, whereas you're putting all of it on your map.


long time ago that "chunk" like you said was a part of Germany where many settlers were ethnic Germans and nowadays too. You French just stole it like you stole Brittany, the Basque Country. Don't argue unless you have any evidence that "chunk" belongs to France.

[Rudel]

long time ago that "chunk" like you said was a part of Germany where many settlers were ethnic Germans and nowadays too.
Mosellans were only ever German in the mind of völkisch retards (these fucking rats are always invited to come here and choke on my cock).


You French just stole it like you stole Brittany, the Basque Country.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Paris_Tuileries_Garden_Facepalm_statue.jpg

[Smaug]

Yes! Free Wales! Free Scotland!

[Rudel]

Yes! Free Wales! Free Scotland!
What ? They're giving free Wales ? Noice. They've been so expensive lately, I thought I'd never get one.

[Ianus]

No, i support autonomy but not indipendence.

[Peyrol]

You forgot so many populations...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3g_8vvgQB64/UFMBVslvn_I/AAAAAAAAAEY/ApPIxMRHU8w/s1600/393488_446588438717361_1397425414_n.jpg

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/noi_europei/Etnieuropa.JPG

[SKYNET]

You forgot so many populations...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3g_8vvgQB64/UFMBVslvn_I/AAAAAAAAAEY/ApPIxMRHU8w/s1600/393488_446588438717361_1397425414_n.jpg

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/noi_europei/Etnieuropa.JPG


lol that's extreme

[ficuscarica]

I support an independent Upper Rhine Allemannic State of Alsace and Baden.

http://www.eures-t-oberrhein.eu/publicmedia/formatted/843/de/Oberrheinkarte-EURES-T%3Bmaxh%3D707,maxw%3D566,h%3D1422,w%3D1132.jpg



Historically the same tribes/dialects:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Alemannic-Dialects-Map-German.png

[Smaug]

What ? They're giving free Wales ? Noice. They've been so expensive lately, I thought I'd never get one.

And of course, free Brittany! That all the Celtic nations unite for a common objective.

[Peyrol]

lol that's extreme

That's the true subdivision.

[Smaug]

You forgot so many populations...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3g_8vvgQB64/UFMBVslvn_I/AAAAAAAAAEY/ApPIxMRHU8w/s1600/393488_446588438717361_1397425414_n.jpg

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/noi_europei/Etnieuropa.JPG

Why is Vilnius under Belarusian control?

[SKYNET]

Mosellans were only ever German in the mind of völkisch retards (these fucking rats are always invited to come here and choke on my cock).





What the hell are you saying'? Take a deep breath and relax dude. Jesus fucking christ.

[Cleitus]

YES !!!! :viking1:

[Empecinado]

Funny how in most of these maps all countries are broken into a myriad of small states except Germany which usually appears keeping its current territory plus Austria ;)

P.D.: Separatism in Galicia is minoritary and in Andalusia is near to non-existant.

[Peyrol]

Funny how in most of these maps all countries are broken into a myriad of small states except Germany which usually appears keeping its current territory plus Austria ;)

P.D.: Separatism in Galicia is minoritary and in Andalusia is near to non-existant.

I bet that there is even an Extremaduran separatism movement, lol :lol:

[Rudel]

That's the true subdivision.
France, Spain, Italy balkanized to the extreme but Switzerland untouched ? Yeah, sure.
The map was probably made by a butthurt regionalist from here, the kind that should be put against a wall and shot down.


What the hell are you saying'?
I think I'm saying what's quoted.

[Peyrol]

France, Spain, Italy balkanized to the extreme but Switzerland untouched ? Yeah, sure.
The map was probably made by a butthurt regionalist from here, the kind put that should be put against a wall and shot down.


I think I'm saying what's quoted.

I just posted the pics as example, but i don't agree.
Even ''Padania'' is senseless as united country.

[Empecinado]

I bet that there is even an Extremaduran separatism movement, lol :lol:

Yes, there are separatist movements in every region but they are just a few nerds xD

[Graham]

If there is a history behind it, & if the people want it. I see no problem.

Big countries only help centralised cities, that depend on leeching off rural-areas. It's Neo-Liberalism, & closer to one big globalised state.

Europe is known for having many different cultures & traditions. And I think that specific people to cultures, know how to enhance that within their own borders.

[Krystal Meth]

I am in favour of independence of Abkhazia, the Basque Country, Brittany, Catalonia, Chechnya, Corsica, England, Kosovo, Nagorno-Karabakh, Scotland, South Ossetia, Wales, and a United Ireland (there's no such country as "Northern Ireland"). I don't mention the others because I don't know enough about them. The UN guarantees the right to self-determination, and the right to secede must be part of that. However, that doesn't mean I support secession carte blanche, only real nations should have the right to secede; separatism based on economic or political grounds such as the right-wing Lega Nord in Northern Italy or the Flemish Movement should not be granted. The borders of many existing nation-states were drawn up fairly recently or by dubious reasoning and have been shifting for centuries so they cannot justify blocking legitimate national liberation movements.

[Gorštak]

Republika Srpska is just entity in Bosnia, made by ethnic cleansing on Bosniaks and Croats, without any constitutional right to declare independence, right question is how long it will exist, I would actually like that they declare independence, it would accelerate some things.

[Krampus]

Feck I accidentally voted no

[Rudel]

Pushing forward the independence of places you have no link to, no knowledge of and based on your own criteria and local systems of thought is pure arrogance.

[Comte Arnau]

Whether one is in favour or against, the right for the people to decide how they want to be ruled should always exist.

I'm frankly jealous of the agreement recently reached in Scotland. I guess that's the difference between a really democratic country and one who thinks it is.

Anyway, for those peoples who really want to linger on, independence is the only way, so it's just a matter of time either to get independent or get assimilated.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

France especially, should be split up they are nothing to do with each other. And of course scotland. And get rid of european union.

[Armatus]

No, that would just weaken countries like France or Spain, which are important nations for the EU and key trading partners for other european countries.
Autonomy status should be enough for most of these regions.

[Peyrol]

I am in favour of independence of Abkhazia, the Basque Country, Brittany, Catalonia, Chechnya, Corsica, England, Kosovo, Nagorno-Karabakh, Scotland, South Ossetia, Wales, and a United Ireland (there's no such country as "Northern Ireland"). I don't mention the others because I don't know enough about them. The UN guarantees the right to self-determination, and the right to secede must be part of that. However, that doesn't mean I support secession carte blanche, only real nations should have the right to secede; separatism based on economic or political grounds such as the right-wing Lega Nord in Northern Italy or the Flemish Movement should not be granted. The borders of many existing nation-states were drawn up fairly recently or by dubious reasoning and have been shifting for centuries so they cannot justify blocking legitimate national liberation movements.

That's much more than ''economical reason''

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Spezia%E2%80%93Rimini_Line

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Italic_languages

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Italian_languages

[Comte Arnau]

No, that would just weaken countries like France or Spain, which are important nations for the EU and key trading partners for other european countries.

The idea that a country has to be large to be powerful is from two centuries ago. The world is full with small important countries and large unimportant ones.

[Rudel]

France especially, should be split up they are nothing to do with each other.
No, it shouldn't.


Autonomy status should be enough for most of these regions.
No point for such thing in France. The only thing that would beneficial from it is the EU, that makes its bread other the destruction of our nations, and global liberalism.
I'd gladly advocate for more subsidiarity if the country was more centralized on other things (it can't happen when the only thing holding the country together is the retarded Republican abstraction) and if the EU was down.


The idea that a country has to be large to be powerful is from two centuries ago. The world is full with small important countries and large unimportant ones.
Smaller (than a nation) entities can only thrive in a world where trading sovereignty and foreign policies for security is a valid bet, but this paradigm won't endure time.
If Catalonia goes independent, there are chances that it might be well for some time but be crushed on the long term. But it's your land, not mine ; the choice is up to you.

[Armatus]

The idea that a country has to be large to be powerful is from two centuries ago. The world is full with small important countries and large unimportant ones.

That's true but imagine Spain without Catalonia's economy...

[Herbalist]

I support Northern Irish, Kurdish, and Basque independence. The other cases, I'm not really informed about so no opinion.

[Armatus]

No, it shouldn't.


No point for such thing in France. The only thing that would beneficial from it is the EU, that makes its bread other the destruction of our nations, and global liberalism.
I'd gladly advocate for more subsidiarity if the country was more centralized on other things and if the EU was down.

So we can chop off each others head again like the past 1000 years ? No, the idea of an european union is great ,it's just the current type of union that sucks. And economic liberalism is needed for europe, especially for us here in germany.
The core problem of europe was the women's liberation and therefore descending birth rates imho.

[Peyrol]

That's true but imagine Spain without Catalonia's economy...

They've many other wealthy regions

http://ec.europa.eu/regional_policy/images/newshome/gpd_2008_big.png

[Also]

The core problem of europe was the women's liberation and therefore descending birth rates imho.

Yes. Sexual liberation + feminism + abortion clinics.

[Rudel]

So we can chop off each others head again like the past 1000 years ?
I do not wish war, but if there is a need of war there should be war. That's a simple reality and there's no point diving your head into a hole. Looking for peace at any coast ends up in nefarious logics.


No, the idea of an european union is great ,it's just the current type of union that sucks.
Bilateral or trilateral agreements are good things. The idea of union is deeply retarded.


And economic liberalism is needed for europe, especially for us here in germany.
No, it's not. Certain forms of capitalism are virtuous and are needed (capitalism of production and industry, that was more implanted in France than in Germany a long time ago, is a good thing for example. It doesn't subsumes liberalism and existed before it). Liberalism (which has numerous avatars, including economy) isn't. What Germany needs isn't a problem of mine (I don't deny we have obvious ties to Germany, but ultimately my own country's interests drive my opinions).


The core problem of europe was the women's liberation and therefore descending birth rates imho.
Women's "liberation" is a contingency (and birth rates could be pushed up without enslaving women).

[Peyrol]

An idependent Piemont like it was in 1494 would be cool :cool: :p :cool:

http://bornes.frontieres.free.fr/carte_duche_de_savoie/Savoie.gif

[Graham]

Btw bring up GDP. I think the Green Party leader here made a good point on GDP.

“GDP can go up when cars crash, when families break down, even when crime levels rise. GDP includes the success of the global arms trade and counts the profits made from junk food and fad diets, but ignores the economic, health and environmental benefits of the plot-holder growing her own potatoes.”

Being Self-sufficient counts against your GDP. So areas that are more Self-sufficient, will score worse.

[Rudel]

Aindependent Piemont like it was in 1494 would be cool :cool: :p :cool:
That's what Europa Universalis was made for :p

[Peyrol]

That's what Europa Universalis was made for :p

Too difficult, wery few allies ad powerful neighbors, you can't expand.
I always use Milan, Genova, Tuscany or Naples rather than Piemont Savoie

[Armatus]

I do not wish war, but if there is a need of war there should be war. That's a simple reality and there's no point diving your head into a hole. Looking for peace at any coast ends up in nefarious logics.

Both Worldwars weakened Europe extremly, including most of your former empire, that fell apart after WW2. Europeans ruled the whole world before WW1, without these retarded wars we would still do it.

Bilateral or trilateral agreements are good things. The idea of union is deeply retarded.

Why ? The United States worked well for a long time for example.

No, it's not. Certain forms of capitalism are virtuous and are needed (capitalism of production and industry, that was more implanted in France than in Germany a long time ago, is a good thing for example. It doesn't subsumes liberalism and existed before it). Liberalism (which has numerous avatars, including economy) isn't. What Germany needs isn't a problem of mine (I don't deny we have obvious ties to Germany, but ultimately my own country's interests drive my opinions).

It is a problem of yours, since your economy is steadily declining and our model obviously works better.

Women's "liberation" is a contingency (and birth rates could be pushed up without enslaving women).

I agree, but the point is that womens liberation was simply done in a totally wrong way. And this caused low birth rates that have an impact on us for the next couple hundred years.

[Damião de Góis]

Not really, but i'm not against them either. I have sympathy for some and indiference for others, but i'm against none.

[Armatus]

I just accidently quoted myself, sorry for that. I'm tired, out for today.

[Rudel]

And this caused low birth rates that have an impact on us for the next couple hundred years.
Hundred years ? You're underestimating the effect of proper familial planing and population dynamics. And don't forget that we've had a gigantic demographic growth during the last three centuries (French population multiplied by three, German by four and you surpassed us after your unification, which was unseen before), despite the most massive wars of European history.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/da/Demographie-france.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Population_of_German_territories_1800_-_2000.JPG

[Albion]

Alsace-Lorraine

http://sturgiswesthistory.weebly.com/uploads/9/5/2/5/9525566/_263850893_orig.jpg

Elsass to become part of Germany, Lorraine is French.


Catalonia

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IenejJIvK74/UTPpd5hmNII/AAAAAAABdts/2V9OoXwAOfE/s1600/1170_110212catalonia1.gif

Not sure, the Catalans are a minority in their own homeland, they're only ~30% of the population, so there seems little point.


Belarusian People's Republic

http://www.brestregion.com/pictures/europe.gif

Belarus already exists.


Chechen Republic

http://www.warchat.org/pictures/the_chechen_war_map_chechnya.jpg

No. I'd prefer a North Caucasus federation, with federal subjects for each ethnicity. I don't include Ossetians in this, North Ossetia and South Ossetia should be a united, independent state under the protection of Russia.


Irish Republic

http://www.ukstudentlife.com/Travel/Tours/Ireland/Ireland.gif

Ireland is independent already. If you mean united Ireland, then no. Ireland should be repartitioned, Irish / Catholic areas of NI should join the republic and the protestant and more mixed areas should remain in the UK or become a autonomous area within Ireland.


Corsican Republic

http://ebankcorsica.com/media/52bf3d9c2e57d9fbffff835fffffffdc.jpg

Corsica should be part of Italy.


Basque Republic

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.gadling.com/media/2011/05/698px-euskalherriaeuropa.png

Yes, although there are a lot of non-Basques there now.


Transylvania

http://www.adventuretransylvania.com/images/transeu.jpg

No, but some areas of it should join Hungary.


Republic of Crimea

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/05/31/article-1392454-0C57EFF000000578-206_468x309.jpg

No. Eastern Ukraine and Crimea should re-join Russia.


Republika Srpska

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Republika_srpska_map.png

Should be incorporated into Serbia. It's the main reason why Bosnia Herzegovina doesn't work and it's a pointless way of punishing Serbia. It should join Serbia.

[Albion]

How about you do ? The part of Lorraine that has ever been contested recently was a small chunk of it, whereas you're putting all of it on your map.

Gotta love complete foreigners telling you about the place you were born and grown.

People talk shit about England all the time. Annoying, I know how it feels, bro. :D

[Rudel]

Elsass to become part of Germany, Lorraine is French.


Corsica should be part of Italy.
As always, the Perfidious Albion (:p) tries to destroy France. Monsieur, c'est la guerre !

http://static-mb.minutebuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/pub-France-Angleterre.jpg

[Albion]

Yes! Free Wales! Free Scotland!

Scotland can fuck off, but Wales stays. We need our little patch of "foreign" and don't want to lose our caravan parks.


You forgot so many populations...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3g_8vvgQB64/UFMBVslvn_I/AAAAAAAAAEY/ApPIxMRHU8w/s1600/393488_446588438717361_1397425414_n.jpg

http://xoomer.virgilio.it/noi_europei/Etnieuropa.JPG

Tuscany wants independence now?



If there is a history behind it, & if the people want it. I see no problem.

Big countries only help centralised cities, that depend on leeching off rural-areas. It's Neo-Liberalism, & closer to one big globalised state.

Europe is known for having many different cultures & traditions. And I think that specific people to cultures, know how to enhance that within their own borders.

I think we should strengthen localism within states by giving counties more powers. England is in a good position to do this if it just lost it's London-centric bias. The nwe Scottish counties make no sense though - Highlands? WTF is that?


separatism based on economic or political grounds such as the right-wing Lega Nord in Northern Italy or the Flemish Movement should not be granted. The borders of many existing nation-states were drawn up fairly recently or by dubious reasoning and have been shifting for centuries so they cannot justify blocking legitimate national liberation movements.

So if they're right-wing, they don't get independence then, is that it? Flanders should be part of the Netherlands, Wallonia part of France.

[Albion]

As always, the Perfidious Albion (:p) tries to destroy France. Monsieur, c'est la guerre !

http://static-mb.minutebuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/pub-France-Angleterre.jpg

I knew this username was a bad idea. Baluarte calls me that occasionally too. :D You get Wallonia and Romandie (French Switzerland) instead, it's a fair deal.

[Albion]

Btw bring up GDP. I think the Green Party leader here made a good point on GDP.

“GDP can go up when cars crash, when families break down, even when crime levels rise. GDP includes the success of the global arms trade and counts the profits made from junk food and fad diets, but ignores the economic, health and environmental benefits of the plot-holder growing her own potatoes.”

Being Self-sufficient counts against your GDP. So areas that are more Self-sufficient, will score worse.

Ugh. This is why no one votes for greens. GDP measures the economy, growing your own spuds can either add to it (you sell said spuds) or worsen it (you eat your own and don't buy any, or you spend more on blight spray than the taters are worth).

[Rudel]

I knew this username was a bad idea. Baluarte calls me that occasionally too. :D You get Wallonia and Romandie (French Switzerland) instead, it's a fair deal.
Unlike you, we're not a race of traders, we're not much for negotiation. We'll keep our land and get Wallonia (no need for Romandie, it would be more of a problem than anything else). How about that ? Where is your God now (assuming Protestants have a God to begin with) ?

[Albion]

Unlike you, we're not a race of traders, we're not much for negotiation. We'll keep our land and get Wallonia

You'll get nothing and like it. :)


(no need for Romandie, it would be more of a problem than anything else). Where is your God now (assuming Protestants have a God to begin with) ?

No Romandie? Is this an anti-protestant thing? Couldn't you just introduce catholicism?

[Peyrol]

Catalans are really only 30% of Catalunya? I thougth they were something as 65%...

[Albion]

Catalans are really only 30% of Catalunya? I thougth they were something as 65%...

Count Arnau and other Iberians told me 30% in a recent thread.

[Peyrol]

Count Arnau and other Iberians told me 30% in a recent thread.

Pretty low...there are in percentages more lombards in Lombardy (around 45-50%).

[Albion]

Pretty low...there are in percentages more lombards in Lombardy (around 45-50%).

When the native population drops below 40% of the population, separatism seems pointless to me. What are they going to do? Deport half the population?

[Peyrol]

When the native population drops below 40% of the population, separatism seems pointless to me. What are they going to do? Deport half the population?

Well, it depends what the other 60% think about the matter. In Catalunya seems that even the castillians want the secession, same in the Basque Counties.

[Rudel]

No Romandie? Is this an anti-protestant thing? Couldn't you just introduce catholicism?
Geneva and the canton of Vaud are historical Protestant strongholds but Romandie has also an important Catholic element. It's not a religious problem.

I'm referring to something a vast majority of people here can't begin to understand : nations can be ultimately conditioned by politics rather than language or ethnicity (that's an idea that popped out with Romanticism).
Yes, French-speaking Swiss are linguistically and ethnically identical to us, but they're fully part of a different nation.

[Albion]

Geneva is an historical Protestant stronghold but Romandie is widely Catholic. It's not a religious problem.

I'm referring to something a vast majority of people here can't begin to understand : nations can be ultimately conditioned by politics rather than language or ethnicity (that's an idea that popped out with Romanticism).
Yes, French-speaking Swiss are linguistically and ethnically identical to us, but they're fully part of a different nation.

Continentals are weird. Every German, French and Italian I've ever spoken to has respected the territorial integrity of Switzerland, basically said the same as you did just. Very odd. I guess I can understand it, even though it goes against nationstates. I guess the closest parallels we have in the UK are Southern Scotland and Northern England - Southern Scotland is basically English but sees itself as Scottish and the Northern Irish are basically all the same even though they see themselves as different.

[Peyrol]

Continentals are weird. Every German, French and Italian I've ever spoken to has respected the territorial integrity of Switzerland, basically said the same as you did just. Very odd. I guess I can understand it, even though it goes against nationstates. I guess the closest parallels we have in the UK are Southern Scotland and Northern England - Southern Scotland is basically English but sees itself as Scottish and the Northern Irish are basically all the same even though they see themselves as different.

For example, ''italian-swiss'' are, in reality, western lombards (insubric).
...and many of them dislikes their fellow milaneses...:lol:

[Rudel]

Continentals are weird.
You eat Marmite, you lose.


Every German, French and Italian I've ever spoken to has respected the territorial integrity of Switzerland, basically said the same as you did just. Very odd. I guess I can understand it, even though it goes against nationstates. I guess the closest parallels we have in the UK are Southern Scotland and Northern England - Southern Scotland is basically English but sees itself as Scottish and the Northern Irish are basically all the same even though they see themselves as different.
Can't say about Germany or Italy (both much younger states than Switzerland by the way), but we settled with the Swiss in 1516 after the battle of Marignan (1515, a victory but at a very high cost, because of the Swiss mercenaries paid by Milan against us).
We basically paid Switzerland so that they would never be recruited again to fight against the King of France (that's the origin of the Swiss neutrality) and so that the King could recruit in Switzerland. It kept going on until 1798 when we invaded Switzerland, but the tradition of neutrality became a general principle of Swiss foreign policies until this day.


...and many of them dislikes their fellow milaneses...:lol:
The French-speaking Swiss think that their shit smell better than ours.

[Empecinado]

Over 60 % of people of Catalonia are not Catalan, they would not support the real independence of Catalonia or directly would oppose to it. The remaining 40% of Catalans , 30% are a bunch of cowardly hypocrites who would rather watch a Barça -Madrid than go through the sacrifice that would have to happen if Catalonia were independent ... Of course, when it comes to going out with separatist flags , all go playing around and uploading the photos on Facebook. But inside they feel more Spanish than anyone ..

In the early 20th century 90% of the Catalan population spoke only Catalan and had many difficulties to express themselves in Castilian ... even then, when the population was more idealistic and prone to armed uprisings ( because was not so drugged as now by the huge amount of media circus we have) , never had the guts to say, " we became independent ," Today you're in Barcelona and the only who speaks Catalan its me, all that this whole show of independence is just a bluff to make electoral or economic gains .

What is ironic is that are the Catalans from lands of the Ebro, who have always seen as second class Catalans by the "Old Catalans", are those who maintain the highest level of Catalanism , superior to the one existing in Old Catalonia (Girona and Barcelona) which for centuries have been considered the first class Catalans. When I check out, for anthropological curiosity, the main forum of Catalan nationalism, half of the members have accent from there. The only ones who are going to vote massively for independence are these sort of pseudo-Valencians lovers of bullfights and of the Copla dance.

[Rudel]

The only ones who are going to vote massively for independence are these sort of pseudo-Valencians lovers of bullfights and of the Copla dance.
I love bullfighting (which is also very popular in Southern France), am I a Spaniard ? ;)

[Albion]

Over 60 % of people of Catalonia are not Catalan, they would not support the real independence of Catalonia or directly would oppose to it. The remaining 40% of Catalans , 30% are a bunch of cowardly hypocrites who would rather watch a Barça -Madrid than go through the sacrifice that would have to happen if Catalonia were independent ... Of course, when it comes to going out with separatist flags , all go playing around and uploading the photos on Facebook. But inside they feel more Spanish than anyone ..

In the early 20th century 90% of the Catalan population spoke only Catalan and had many difficulties to express themselves in Castilian ... even then, when the population was more idealistic and prone to armed uprisings ( because was not so drugged as now by the huge amount of media circus we have) , never had the guts to say, " we became independent ," Today you're in Barcelona and the only who speaks Catalan its me, all that this whole show of independence is just a bluff to make electoral or economic gains .

What is ironic is that are the Catalans from lands of the Ebro, who have always seen as second class Catalans by the "Old Catalans", are those who maintain the highest level of Catalanism , superior to the one existing in Old Catalonia (Girona and Barcelona) which for centuries have been considered the first class Catalans. When I check out, for anthropological curiosity, the main forum of Catalan nationalism, half of the members have accent from there. The only ones who are going to vote massively for independence are these sort of pseudo-Valencians lovers of bullfights and of the Copla dance.

We have English people here that move to Wales and suddenly become Welsh nationalists overnight. I can understand assimilating and taking on the local culture, that's good. But becoming some sort of false nationalist and opposing your actual motherland is daft.

[Albion]

I love bullfighting (which is also very popular in Southern France), am I a Spaniard ? ;)

I heard it goes back to the Minoans and perhaps back to early farmers and was preserved and subsequently spread by latter Greeks into South west Europe. I'm against banning such an old part of European cultures.

[Empecinado]

I love bullfighting (which is also very popular in Southern France), am I a Spaniard ? ;)

It used to be very popular throughout Catalonia, Barcelona was the city with the highest number of bullrings in the world, though not anymore because separatists pushed against it to distance from Spain (according them bullfighting is a Spanish thing, so should be abolished) . In Southern France there were no such campaigns against it so is totally normal that you like (btw I do not like , though).

[Peyrol]

Over 60 % of people of Catalonia are not Catalan, they would not support the real independence of Catalonia or directly would oppose to it. The remaining 40% of Catalans , 30% are a bunch of cowardly hypocrites who would rather watch a Barça -Madrid than go through the sacrifice that would have to happen if Catalonia were independent ... Of course, when it comes to going out with separatist flags , all go playing around and uploading the photos on Facebook. But inside they feel more Spanish than anyone ..

In the early 20th century 90% of the Catalan population spoke only Catalan and had many difficulties to express themselves in Castilian ... even then, when the population was more idealistic and prone to armed uprisings ( because was not so drugged as now by the huge amount of media circus we have) , never had the guts to say, " we became independent ," Today you're in Barcelona and the only who speaks Catalan its me, all that this whole show of independence is just a bluff to make electoral or economic gains .

What is ironic is that are the Catalans from lands of the Ebro, who have always seen as second class Catalans by the "Old Catalans", are those who maintain the highest level of Catalanism , superior to the one existing in Old Catalonia (Girona and Barcelona) which for centuries have been considered the first class Catalans. When I check out, for anthropological curiosity, the main forum of Catalan nationalism, half of the members have accent from there. The only ones who are going to vote massively for independence are these sort of pseudo-Valencians lovers of bullfights and of the Copla dance.

So, Catalan is destined to dead as language? Count Arnau told me that Barcellona is almost a bilingual city...

[Empecinado]

We have English people here that move to Wales and suddenly become Welsh nationalists overnight. I can understand assimilating and taking on the local culture, that's good. But becoming some sort of false nationalist and opposing your actual motherland is daft.

Yes, the anger of the convert. This happens with non Catalan Spaniards who move there, especially the second generations.

[Empecinado]

So, Catalan is destined to dead as language? Count Arnau told me that Barcellona is almost a bilingual city...

I do not thing is going to die, at least not in a short to medium term. Barcelona is a bilingual city in the sense that most of both Spaniards of Catalan and not Catalan ancestry, especially the young ones, are able to communicate perfectly in both languages​​, but people always use one out of those two languages ​​more than the other to communicate. At street level, Castilian is the most used by far.

[Baluarte]

long time ago that "chunk" like you said was a part of Germany where many settlers were ethnic Germans and nowadays too. You French just stole it like you stole Brittany, the Basque Country. Don't argue unless you have any evidence that "chunk" belongs to France.

Dang, Chechen sucking up to the Germans, now I've seen it all.

[Peyrol]

I do not thing is going to die, at least not in a short to medium term. Barcelona is a bilingual city in the sense that most of both Spaniards of Catalan and not Catalan ancestry, especially the young ones, are able to communicate perfectly in both languages​​, but people always use one out of those two languages ​​more than the other to communicate. At street level, Castilian is the most used by far.

This remind me of some italian cities like Bergamo, Brescia, Verona or Venezia where ''dialects'' (languages in reality, in this case orobich lombard and venetian) and italian are both used in daily life and something mixed each others in the discussion.
But the difference is that, unlike our galloromance languages, catalan is official, compulsory and taugth in schools.

My mother lived some months in Girona in 1977 and told me that everyone only spoke catalan there. But from 1977 to now it's a long time...

I wonder if in a some distant future the language will die...i think that probabily will mix with castillian in a pseudo-aragonese dialect...the ''catastellano'' :lol:

[Baluarte]

This is the one I propose :cool:

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/8466/yourchoice1.png

Scotland and Wales may or may not be independent, don't care enough. Although perhaps it'd be best for them to be free of Perfidious Albion :D

[Rudel]

I heard it goes back to the Minoans and perhaps back to early farmers and was preserved and subsequently spread by latter Greeks into South west Europe. I'm against banning such an old part of European cultures.
Horses and bulls from Camargue (swampy plains in Provence) or bulls from Gascony that are used in such games are among the oldest races in Europe.


In Southern France there were no such campaigns against it so is totally normal that you like (btw I do not like , though).
There are such campaigns but bullfighting is protected by law in the cities where it's traditional and it's very popular.

Spanish-type corridas are very popular so I won't talk about these, but some stuff from here :

Gascony, course landaise :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Ecarteur.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Sauteur.JPG

Languedoc and Provence :

Course camarguaise :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/76/Razet_Face_Face.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Raseteur.jpg

Abrivada (bulls going from the fields to the arenas) :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Caveirac_abrivado.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Calvisson_-_Abrivado_2.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Calvisson_-_Atrapaïre_3.JPG

Bandida (bulls coming back from the arenas) :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/56/Bandido_à_Beauvoisin_1612.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Calvisson_-_atrapaïre_1.JPG/1280px-Calvisson_-_atrapaïre_1.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Calvisson_-_Atrapaïre_2.JPG

[armenianbodyhair]

Only when the states they are a part of should not exist in that form.

[Rudel]

This is the one I propose :cool:

http://img545.imageshack.us/img545/8466/yourchoice1.png

Scotland and Wales may or may not be independent, don't care enough. Although perhaps it'd be best for them to be free of Perfidious Albion :D
Baluarte, proud member of the Russia Stronk and Arriba España parties.

[SKYNET]

Dang, Chechen sucking up to the Germans, now I've seen it all.



chechens and germans fuck your dirty mouth, and get the fuck out of this thread you asshole

[Baluarte]

Baluarte, proud member of the Russia Stronk and Arriba España parties.

+Hungary
+Serbia
+Ireland
+Wallonie for France
and finally get all the good germans in one State :D

[Empecinado]

This remind me of some italian cities like Bergamo, Brescia, Verona or Venezia where ''dialects'' (loanguages in reality, in this case orobich lombard and venetian) are both used in daily life and something mixed each others in the discussion.
But the difference is that, unlike our galloromance languages, catalan is official, compulsory and taugth in schools.

Probably similar, though I do not know what % of descendants from southern Italians spoke these dialects in everyday life.


My mother lived some months in Girona in 1977 and told me that everyone only spoke catalan there. But from 1977 to now it's a long time...

In Girona there are more Catalan speakers than in Barcelona, especially outside the city, in the surrounding towns. But Girona also has even more non Spaniards immigrants than Barcelona, so the situation will change soon. There are a lot of North Africans and Pakis so the next most spoken language will be Tamazight.


I wonder if in a some distant future the language will die...i think that probabily will mix with castillian in a pseudo-aragonese dialect...the ''catastellano'' :lol:

In southern Catalonia most of people speak it as well in Castellón, Valencia and northern Alicante (though we do not like to call it Catalan :p), especially in Valencia the number of immigrants is quite low and the young people still speak it so it will continue existing.

About the mix, in my province there are Valencian speaking towns just 3 km away from Castilian speaking towns, in constant communication throughout centuries, and they still have keep each language almost unchanged, without almost no mixing (only a few words). This is the closest to "catastellano" xD


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=137MDmuOXM0

[Baluarte]

chechens and germans fuck your dirty mouth, and get the fuck out of this thread you asshole

Why so angry? I got a proposal that I worked on a while ago.
All you have is angry swearwords, German bootlicking, and downright lying pretending not to be a Chechen

[Peyrol]

Btw, for ''padania'' or the singles northern italian regions independentism would be senseless: here the percentages (estimated) of southern italians (first and second generation of full blooded, half southern/half northern people not included) in the northern and central regions (source: university of Milan):

Lombardia 43%
Abruzzo 41%
Lazio 38%
Marche 35%
Emilia Romagna 34%
Piemonte 51% (brr...)
Veneto 29%
Umbria 25%
Friuli Venezia Giulia 21%
Liguria 21%
Toscana 18%

[SKYNET]

Why so angry? I got a proposal that I worked on a while ago.
All you have is angry swearwords, German bootlicking, and downright lying pretending not to be a Chechen




Don't quote me, don't talk to me and fuck off! I hate you!

[Baluarte]

Don't quote me, don't talk to me and fuck off! I hate you!

Aww I'm sorry I've upset you and forced you thumb down like a passive aggressive queer. I'm sorry :(:rolleyes2:

I did warn you several times that if you continued your lowbrow trolling and cheap provocations against people in the board I wouldn't hesitate to tell people what a fraud you are.

It's ok though. Chechens are a good people, you should be more proud of it and stop trying to lie to the rest of the world.

[SKYNET]

yo I dont give a fuck about anything anything what you want to write here, your thinking and everything else :thumb001: dont quote me anymore

[Albion]

Although perhaps it'd be best for them to be free of Perfidious Albion :D

See what you started, Rudel? :D


This remind me of some italian cities like Bergamo, Brescia, Verona or Venezia where ''dialects'' (languages in reality, in this case orobich lombard and venetian) and italian are both used in daily life and something mixed each others in the discussion.
But the difference is that, unlike our galloromance languages, catalan is official, compulsory and taugth in schools.

My mother lived some months in Girona in 1977 and told me that everyone only spoke catalan there. But from 1977 to now it's a long time...

I wonder if in a some distant future the language will die...i think that probabily will mix with castillian in a pseudo-aragonese dialect...the ''catastellano'' :lol:

Interesting. Here I think people think in black and white. You can speak English or Welsh in Wales, one or the other, but you can't just go between the languages midway through a conversation.

It might be because most people in Wales aren't totally fluent in it though.

[Comte Arnau]

If Catalonia goes independent, there are chances that it might be well for some time but be crushed on the long term. But it's your land, not mine ; the choice is up to you.

It's a possibility. But at least, it will be Catalonia. Today Catalonia means nothing.

"Eduardo Barcelona" taking Homer to Barcelona in the last episode of The Simpsons is a bullfighter with Latin-American accent. This only is reason enough to desire independence. :rolleyes:


That's true but imagine Spain without Catalonia's economy...

Oh, according to the president of Estremadura and other oversubsidized regions, they would even be better without us. So I imagine it would be no problem for them.


Count Arnau and other Iberians told me 30% in a recent thread.

That is not true, but apparently what I explained was good for nothing. In the end, it all comes to what one regards as a Catalan. To me, a surname is not that important. Marc Márquez, the recent MotoGP world champion, is a Catalan, regardless of whether his surname reveals his grandfather's lineage from Andalusia. However, an American actor with a Catalan surname that might have come to him via South America is clearly not. Márquez's second surname is Catalan, for instance. Catalonians with both a Spanish and a Catalan surname are just as common or even more as those with two Catalan surnames, and both make up more than 60% of the population.


Over 60 % of people of Catalonia are not Catalan, they would not support the real independence of Catalonia or directly would oppose to it. The remaining 40% of Catalans , 30% are a bunch of cowardly hypocrites who would rather watch a Barça -Madrid than go through the sacrifice that would have to happen if Catalonia were independent ... Of course, when it comes to going out with separatist flags , all go playing around and uploading the photos on Facebook. But inside they feel more Spanish than anyone ..

Let's make a referendum as in Scotland and all these subjective impressions without any real value will get clarified once and for all.


Today you're in Barcelona and the only who speaks Catalan its me,

:rolleyes2:


It used to be very popular throughout Catalonia, Barcelona was the city with the highest number of bullrings in the world, though not anymore because separatists pushed against it to distance from Spain (according them bullfighting is a Spanish thing, so should be abolished) . In Southern France there were no such campaigns against it so is totally normal that you like (btw I do not like , though).

The ban on circus animals is also an attack against Spanish "culture"?


I do not thing is going to die, at least not in a short to medium term. Barcelona is a bilingual city in the sense that most of both Spaniards of Catalan and not Catalan ancestry, especially the young ones, are able to communicate perfectly in both languages​​, but people always use one out of those two languages ​​more than the other to communicate. At street level, Castilian is the most used by far.

That clearly depends on the areas and contexts of your everyday life. At street level, in some areas you don't even hear Catalan or Spanish, but only guiri.

What I don't understand is that dichotomy of Spanish nationalists, one minute saying that Spanish is endangered and persecuted in Catalonia, next minute saying it is the most spoken language there. :confused:



This remind me of some italian cities like Bergamo, Brescia, Verona or Venezia where ''dialects'' (languages in reality, in this case orobich lombard and venetian) and italian are both used in daily life and something mixed each others in the discussion.
But the difference is that, unlike our galloromance languages, catalan is official, compulsory and taugth in schools.

But how many non-native North Italians migrated to northern cities learn the local languages to the point of being bilingual?


I wonder if in a some distant future the language will die...i think that probabily will mix with castillian in a pseudo-aragonese dialect...the ''catastellano'' :lol:

Catalan never figures as endangered (in Catalonia) because its number of speakers has considerably grown and keeps growing. You can see the thread I just started about the figures for Catalan in 2012. The "attraction index" of Catalan is as high as that of English or French in proportion. However, it's not the quantity what worries me, but the quality. I can excuse the quality in second-language speakers, but these days natives who've got the language as their first language are gradually ignoring some important distinctive features of it because of the mainstream influence. What's worse, news presenters and even TV dubbings are getting worse because they now favour what is called 'light Catalan', that is, one that admits adoption of many Spanish forms, specially in the slang. If you ever complain about English terms entering Italian or French, go figure it happening twice as frequently. :/

[Rudel]

See what you started, Rudel? :D
A slow and necessary reconquest of French space against England the vile.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Ingres_coronation_charles_vii.jpg

[Empecinado]

Let's make a referendum as in Scotland and all these subjective impressions without any real value will get clarified once and for all.

And would show that, despite all the brainwashing, people prefer to continue watching the Barça-Madrid than endure the independence process xD



The ban on circus animals is also an attack against Spanish "culture"?

You know perfectly that the that the prohibition of bullfighting has nothing to do with the prohibition of animal abuse. The Correbous are still celebrated. Separatism tries to break up all cultural ties with Spain.




That clearly depends on the areas and contexts of your everyday life. At street level, in some areas you don't even hear Catalan or Spanish, but only guiri.

What I don't understand is that dichotomy of Spanish nationalists, one minute saying that Spanish is endangered and persecuted in Catalonia, next minute saying it is the most spoken language there. :confused:

The Castilian is by far the most spoken language in everyday situations, especially in Barcelona and surroundings. You do not need a study to know this, just go out.

[DarkSecret]

Seperation does not help anyone. If they don't support my country to be splitted I don't support any country to be splitted either...

[DarkSecret]

And Nikolai III supports independent Chechnya... LoL

[Rudel]

Why ? The United States worked well for a long time for example.
Please don't tell me you're not seriously comparing Europe and the US in terms of political structures.


It is a problem of yours, since your economy is steadily declining and our model obviously works better.
How the hell is it hard to understand that your model is YOUR model ? Models don't fit everywhere.

[Arend]

and finally get all the good germans in one State :DRemember when you said that Austria shouldn’t be part of Germany because it was never really actually integrated into Germany? Makes perfect sense then that Bavaria joins Austria.

>Balurate
>logic

[Manifest Destiny]

I'd have to learn more about the histories of the various regions before I could really form an opinion. It should obviously be up to the people in the respective countries, though.

[Armatus]

Please don't tell me you're not seriously comparing Europe and the US in terms of political structures.

The EU is unique and the US-System is closer to the EU than something like ASEAN.


How the hell is it hard to understand that your model is YOUR model ? Models don't fit everywhere.

That's not the point. The point is that you should care about the economy of your most important trading partner since it influences your own economy aswell.

Regarding your birth rate tables: These tables suggest good demographics because the low birth rates of european women are compensated by high birthrates of non european women and high immigration rates. Maybe you don't care if frenchmen aren't the majority in france anymore in a (few) hundred years, but i do.

[Rudel]

That's not the point. The point is that you should care about the economy of your most important trading partner since it influences your own economy aswell.
I only care to the point that it's doing well, I don't give a single shit about the model it's using.


Regarding your birth rate tables: These tables suggest good demographics because the low birth rates of european women are compensated by high birthrates of non european women and high immigration rates. Maybe you don't care if frenchmen aren't the majority in france anymore in a (few) hundred years, but i do.
If social tensions eventually get pacified in France, there eventually won't be such thing as "Frenchmen not being the majority" (which is frankly a fantasy). Once again, I don't want you to care for us. We don't need the Germans looking over our shoulder.

[Armatus]

I only care to the point that it's doing well, I don't give a single shit about the model it's using

So for you it doesn't count why something is happening only what's the result ? So if person A would murder person B, because B tried to kill A, A is still guilty of 1st degree murder in your opinion ? Hope you never be a judge.


If social tensions eventually get pacified in France, there eventually won't be such thing as "Frenchmen not being the majority" (which is frankly a fantasy). Once again, I don't want you to care for us. We don't need the Germans looking over our shoulder.

So a person in france that speaks french but is of 100% African descend is french for you ?

I don't care about french demographics, but if i would've taken germany as an example your reply would've been: i don't care.

[Graham]

:rolleyes2:


Can remember about 10 years ago, as a teen in Catalonia. The taxi driver we had, couldn't stop talking about Catalan independence. It was because he thought, we were English at first. And was very apologetic.

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

Can remember about 10 years ago, as a teen in Catalonia. The taxi driver we had, couldn't stop talking about Catalan independence. It was because he thought, we were English at first. And was very apologetic.

Why did you thumb me down?You mad,commoner?The original scots/irish/welsh and english and original high celtic/ british kings were basques(picts/scythians)Step into traffic you piece of shit.

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

Because you put up your political video, in the DNA thread of ancestry of 23andme. And once again off topic.

Political video my ass,you dumbass.Its called unmasking imposters,nothing to do with politics, you mcmoron.End of times and you are going to get owned, because a true celt would be pissed off as well.

[Rudel]

So for you it doesn't count why something is happening only what's the result ?
If a model can't be ported in France, yes, from my point of view only the result matters as only the result ripples on us.


So a person in france that speaks french but is of 100% African descend is french for you ?
It's a very individual-basis thing. But yes, following certain criteria you can be of full African descent and French.
Considering the factual situation, ethnic categorizations of our societies will only produce more social fragility and endemic civil war.
You can play the crusader against Islam as long as you want, or call for the eradication of the Turks in Germany but the truth is filling the streets with blood and risking your life whenever you have to go outside to buy bread isn't that much fun (and wont actually make things better than they were, nor make things go back in time).

[Armatus]

It's a very individual-basis thing. But yes, following certain criteria you can be of full African descent and French.
Considering the factual situation, ethnic categorizations of our societies will only produce more social fragility and endemic civil war.
You can play the crusader against Islam as long as you want, or call for the eradication of the Turks in Germany but the truth is filling the streets with blood and risking your life whenever you have to go outside to by bread isn't that much fun (and wont actually make things better than they were, nor make things go back).

I think the problem aren't the immigrants, it's their will to not marry europeans. I rarely see mixed couples here (don't know about the situation in france) and most of the turks here live in a kind of parallel society. German and french people are mixed themselves and absorbed numerous waves of immigrants and expelled tribes. If muslims would quickly mix with us i wouldn't care about european demographics. But fact is (atleast in germany) that they marry only each other, getting more numerous and create a social split rather than one mixed nation.

[Rudel]

I think the problem aren't the immigrants, it's their will to not marry europeans. I rarely see mixed couples here (don't know about the situation in france) and most of the turks here live in a kind of parallel society. German and french people are mixed themselves and absorbed numerous waves of immigrants and expelled tribes. If muslims would quickly mix with us i wouldn't care about european demographics. But fact is (atleast in germany) that they marry only each other, getting more numerous and create a social split rather than one mixed nation.
From this perspective, we perfectly agree. But you can't force intermarriage on people. It occurs naturally when society is pacified. It won't happen as long as false dichotomies such as Christians vs Muslims feed identitary positions (hence effectively producing endogamy).
That's the sense of my nationalism, where I want to see people of diverse origins or trajectories (which was always more or less the case in France, where the nation, much before the Revolution, was built around the unification and centralization around one political principal, back then the King, rather than on a natural sense of belonging enhanced by Romanticism as it was the case in modern nations such as Germany) agree on a common interest. One could oppose that it's what the EU stands for, but I consider this huge scale widely inappropriate and bound to failure (while the national scale has proved to be functional).
Nationalism based on a theory of the "enemy of the interior" is ineffective and too easy to be true in my sense, as what's designated as the enemy (the poorest urban populations, usually coming from recent immigration) is usually the part of population that has the least power and the worst representation (hence the least sensible to actually unite and destroy the country). If there is a enemy of the interior, it's that bunch of people working for foreign interests and enriching on the back of the whole population.

While the work is very hard to do in France, because we have to go against some natural enmities (the whole white/Christian versus colored/Muslims for example, that is being masterfully manipulated), it would probably be even much harder in Germany or post-WWI nations based on ethnicities because their whole national being is very hard to decouple from blood.

I like to come back to history as a means of explanation : after the fall of Rome the Franks took hold of the Gauls. From the moment the local Romans acknowledged the Franks as their objective allies and their best option in adversity (as opposed to Syagrius for example), and from the moment the Franks adopted the most important local customs (Catholicism, a part of Romanity and overall the supremacy of the Latin language. The Franks who didn't, such as those of Sigisbert and the Rhine Franks, disappeared into anonymity) there was a symbiosis with intermingling and slow vanishing of the Franks as a separate ethnicity.
The two populations melted with one another, created a powerful kingdom and here we are, 1500 years later.
The same thing is valid for the Burgundians (that where annexed by the Franks), but is not for the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Alamans etc. that, regardless of their tribal feats and glory, disaggregated.

[Armatus]

From this perspective, we perfectly agree. But you can't force intermarriage on people. It occurs naturally when society is pacified. It won't happen as long as false dichotomies such as Christians vs Muslims feed identitary positions (hence effectively producing endogamy).

Totally agree, religious extremism is a key factor regarding a succesful mixing. Unfortunately our media loves it to write stories like "Pig Heads in front of mosque" or "Muslims piss in Chapel".


That's the sense of my nationalism, where I want to see people of diverse origins or trajectories (which was always more or less the case in France, where the nation, much before the Revolution, was built around the unification and centralization around one political principal, back then the King, rather than on a natural sense of belonging enhanced by Romanticism as it was the case in modern nations such as Germany) agree on a common interest. One could oppose that it's what the EU stands for, but I consider this huge scale widely inappropriate and bound to failure (while the national scale has proved to be functional).
Nationalism based on a theory of the "enemy of the interior" is ineffective and too easy to be true in my sense, as what's designated as the enemy (the poorest urban populations, usually coming from recent immigration) is usually the part of population that has the least power and the worst representation (hence the least sensible to actually unite and destroy the country). If there is a enemy of the interior, it's that bunch of people working for foreign interests and enriching on the back of the whole population.
While the work is very hard to do in France, because we have to go against some natural enmities (the whole white/Christian versus colored/Muslims for example, that is being masterfully manipulated), it would probably be even much harder in Germany or post-WWI nations based on ethnicities because their whole national being is very hard to decouple from blood.

True words, never thought i agree with you.


I like to come back to history as a means of explanation : after the fall of Rome the Franks took hold of the Gauls. From the moment the local Romans acknowledged the Franks as their objective allies and their best option in adversity (as opposed to Syagrius for example), and from the moment the Franks adopted the most important local customs (Catholicism, a part of Romanity and overall the supremacy of the Latin language. The Franks who didn't, such as those of Sigisbert and the Rhine Franks, disappeared into anonymity) there was a symbiosis with intermingling and slow vanishing of the Franks as a separate ethnicity.
The two populations melted with one another, created a powerful kingdom and here we are, 1500 years later.
The same thing is valid for the Burgundians (that where annexed by the Franks), but is not for the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Alamans etc. that, regardless of their tribal feats and glory, disaggregated.

Actually a good example for mixing that worked extremly well. Another one are the english, which ruled pretty much 1/4 of the world and they are just one big mix.

[DarkSecret]

I think the problem aren't the immigrants, it's their will to not marry europeans. I rarely see mixed couples here (don't know about the situation in france) and most of the turks here live in a kind of parallel society. German and french people are mixed themselves and absorbed numerous waves of immigrants and expelled tribes. If muslims would quickly mix with us i wouldn't care about european demographics. But fact is (atleast in germany) that they marry only each other, getting more numerous and create a social split rather than one mixed nation.

I know many Turks married to Germans. But in general maybe it is because you? If you treat them like humans of course they would not be isolated from the society!

[Albion]

Can remember about 10 years ago, as a teen in Catalonia. The taxi driver we had, couldn't stop talking about Catalan independence. It was because he thought, we were English at first. And was very apologetic.

It's not like Gibraltar is going to annex Catalonia. Strange guy.


From this perspective, we perfectly agree. But you can't force intermarriage on people. It occurs naturally when society is pacified. It won't happen as long as false dichotomies such as Christians vs Muslims feed identitary positions (hence effectively producing endogamy).
That's the sense of my nationalism, where I want to see people of diverse origins or trajectories (which was always more or less the case in France, where the nation, much before the Revolution, was built around the unification and centralization around one political principal, back then the King, rather than on a natural sense of belonging enhanced by Romanticism as it was the case in modern nations such as Germany) agree on a common interest. One could oppose that it's what the EU stands for, but I consider this huge scale widely inappropriate and bound to failure (while the national scale has proved to be functional).
Nationalism based on a theory of the "enemy of the interior" is ineffective and too easy to be true in my sense, as what's designated as the enemy (the poorest urban populations, usually coming from recent immigration) is usually the part of population that has the least power and the worst representation (hence the least sensible to actually unite and destroy the country). If there is a enemy of the interior, it's that bunch of people working for foreign interests and enriching on the back of the whole population.

While the work is very hard to do in France, because we have to go against some natural enmities (the whole white/Christian versus colored/Muslims for example, that is being masterfully manipulated), it would probably be even much harder in Germany or post-WWI nations based on ethnicities because their whole national being is very hard to decouple from blood.

I like to come back to history as a means of explanation : after the fall of Rome the Franks took hold of the Gauls. From the moment the local Romans acknowledged the Franks as their objective allies and their best option in adversity (as opposed to Syagrius for example), and from the moment the Franks adopted the most important local customs (Catholicism, a part of Romanity and overall the supremacy of the Latin language. The Franks who didn't, such as those of Sigisbert and the Rhine Franks, disappeared into anonymity) there was a symbiosis with intermingling and slow vanishing of the Franks as a separate ethnicity.
The two populations melted with one another, created a powerful kingdom and here we are, 1500 years later.
The same thing is valid for the Burgundians (that where annexed by the Franks), but is not for the Visigoths, Ostrogoths, Vandals, Alamans etc. that, regardless of their tribal feats and glory, disaggregated.

Rudel, are you a civic nationalist? Other peoples can be assimilated to an extent, but there are limits. Most non-Euros are far too different to fit into existing European societies, I don't think France can just assimilate it's African and Middle Eastern population and everything will suddenly be alright.
Rhine Franks just became Dutch, Germans and Flemish anyway.

[Albion]

I know many Turks married to Germans. But in general maybe it is because you? If you treat them like humans of course they would not be isolated from the society!

Maybe it's because they decided they want to be live in a foreign country?

[B01AB20]

Can remember about 10 years ago, as a teen in Catalonia. The taxi driver we had, couldn't stop talking about Catalan independence. It was because he thought, we were English at first. And was very apologetic.

???

tha taxi driver was talking in favor or against catalan independence?

[Rudel]

Rudel, are you a civic nationalist?
I'm fundamentally a royalist, even if a whole lot of things come into consideration as well. Thus the civic notion is generally absent from my thinking.
Plus I don't accept such broad categories. My opinion is that good and functional political systems are highly national and specialized, and can't be applied across the board (that's why the whole Human rights and democracy is not only a fraud, but a dangerous instability-generating ideology). I don't believe in universalism in politics. The last two centuries proved well enough that it's pointless.


I don't think France can just assimilate it's African and Middle Eastern population and everything will suddenly be alright.
And I don't think we can suddenly assimilate them. I repeat it : it's republicanism (and wishful thinking). I'm not a republican. But I'm convinced we can build a coherent national project that would benefit everyone.


Rhine Franks just became Dutch, Germans and Flemish anyway.
I know.

[LightHouse89]

I don't.
The destruction of nation states benefits who?

true I hate the EU though.

[LightHouse89]

I know many Turks married to Germans. But in general maybe it is because you? If you treat them like humans of course they would not be isolated from the society!

If islam and Christianity didn't exist then Europeans would probably be more tolerant of middle easterners. we are Neanderthals but mass immigration has proven to be a problem. Personally I have no problem with middle easterners. Its just religion that pollutes our politics and mass immigration of peoples. I mean I doubt my boston irish crowd n the millions would be accepted in turkey because we are somewhat a redneckish sort. We are rowdy, loud, drink heavily, and fight a lot. Believe me no nation would want a lot of us there. That is normal. Maybe the educated members of my group but that wouldn't be in the millions. we do make good cops, firefighters and tradesmen though ;)

[LightHouse89]

I'm fundamentally a royalist, even if a whole lot of things come into consideration as well. Thus the civic notion is generally absent from my thinking.
Plus I don't accept such broad categories. My opinion is that good and functional political systems are highly national and specialized, and can't be applied across the board (that's why the whole Human rights and democracy is not only a fraud, but a dangerous instability-generating ideology). I don't believe in universalism in politics. The last two centuries proved well enough that it's pointless.


And I don't think we can suddenly assimilate them. I repeat it : it's republicanism (and wishful thinking). I'm not a republican. But I'm convinced we can build a coherent national project that would benefit everyone.


I know.

I think Pan-National Socialism could work with a leader like Napoleon :cool: with a mix ofcourse of a monarchy. I think it would benefit the world more. No genocide or anything like that I am not a Hitlerite.

[Albion]

I'm fundamentally a royalist, even if a whole lot of things come into consideration as well. Thus the civic notion is generally absent from my thinking.
Plus I don't accept such broad categories. My opinion is that good and functional political systems are highly national and specialized, and can't be applied across the board (that's why the whole Human rights and democracy is not only a fraud, but a dangerous instability-generating ideology). I don't believe in universalism in politics. The last two centuries proved well enough that it's pointless.

I agree, voting should be restricted to certain members of society. At the very least, the voting age should be raised to 25. In countries such as Scotland there are talks of making it 16. Most 16 year olds I see are still acting like kids, what the hell do kids still in school know about life?



And I don't think we can suddenly assimilate them. I repeat it : it's republicanism (and wishful thinking). I'm not a republican. But I'm convinced we can build a coherent national project that would benefit everyone.


I know.

You have no problem with immigrants then, no matter where they're from?

What's with French monarchists too, is this some strange nostalgia? How common are monarchists in France? If you join the Commonwealth, you can have a Queen Elizabeth of France.:lightbul:

[Baluarte]

What's with French monarchists too, is this some strange nostalgia? How common are monarchists in France? If you join the Commonwealth, you can have a Queen Elizabeth of France.:lightbul:

How's a Protestant Parliamentary "Monarchy" with ties to the City of London anyhow remotely similar to what Counterrevolutionaries want?

Seems what a crown is supposed to be has long been forgotten by the Brits, all the way back to 1688.

To a great extent, French Counterrevolutionaries along with Spanish Carlists are the inspiration for most of my positions today. They're of course not common, but they're amongst the smartest people you'll ever talk to. I can't say the same about NS types and certainly not about the lowest of the lowest of the far right: White Nationalists.

[Szegedist]

I am against the existence of fake non historic states.

To give you an idea, Hungary, founded in 895 = historic. Slovakia, founded two decades ago = fake and non historic, therefore it doesnt deserve to pollute space on world maps.

[Baluarte]

I am against the existence of fake non historic states.

To give you an idea, Hungary, founded in 895 = historic. Slovakia, founded two decades ago = fake and non historic, therefore it doesnt deserve to pollute space on world maps.

;)
I propose giving Felvidenk to Hungary and the rest to be given to the Czechs ;) The Czechs can then in turn give Sudetenland back to Austria.

[Empecinado]

Rudel, we can gladly return you the Bourbons if you want a monarchy :laugh:

[Albion]

I think Pan-National Socialism could work with a leader like Napoleon :cool: with a mix ofcourse of a monarchy. I think it would benefit the world more. No genocide or anything like that I am not a Hitlerite.

Fascism in the Italian style IMO, but I'm not entirely comfortable with the control over the economy, that's where it gets similar to communism. The only thing attractive about fascism really is that it was socially conservative in the past, but fascists in the future will mostly be left-wing as authoritarianism is essentially a left-wing mindset. Ironic, since 'fascist' is an insult directed from lefties to right wingers, but it's usually the left that displays the signs of it.

Democracy is okay if it's run well, that is if socially responsible people get to vote - no kids (anyone under 21), no criminals and no long term welfare parasites* should be allowed to vote. Voting age should be raised to 25, that gets rid of a lot of idealist twerps with no life experience at university voting.

*pensioners and the disabled aren't welfare parasites, people on the dole for a few months between jobs aren't either.

[Albion]

I am against the existence of fake non historic states.

To give you an idea, Hungary, founded in 895 = historic. Slovakia, founded two decades ago = fake and non historic, therefore it doesnt deserve to pollute space on world maps.

That's only because you occupied them. Wales didn't even exist before the English united it (as part of our realm). It still hasn't existed as an independent state, but should it if the Welsh want it? Yes.

[Stormer99]

Fascism in the Italian style IMO, but I'm not entirely comfortable with the control over the economy, that's where it gets similar to communism. The only thing attractive about fascism really is that it was socially conservative in the past, but fascists in the future will mostly be left-wing as authoritarianism is essentially a left-wing mindset. Ironic, since 'fascist' is an insult directed from lefties to right wingers, but it's usually the left that displays the signs of it.

Democracy is okay if it's run well, that is if socially responsible people get to vote - no kids (anyone under 21), no criminals and no long term welfare parasites* should be allowed to vote. Voting age should be raised to 25, that gets rid of a lot of idealist twerps with no life experience at university voting.

*pensioners and the disabled aren't welfare parasites, people on the dole for a few months between jobs aren't either.

It's not the Sicilian way though. Sicilians are more anarchistic and don't trust outsiders.

[Baluarte]

Rudel, we can gladly return you the Bourbons if you want a monarchy :laugh:

That's hardly better :lol:

All those that descend from Isabel II have only been getting worse and worse.
Seems everything would have been better without the Pragmatic Sanction of 1830.

Of course I don't say this because of my sympathies for Carlists :rolleyes:

[DarkSecret]

If islam and Christianity didn't exist then Europeans would probably be more tolerant of middle easterners. we are Neanderthals but mass immigration has proven to be a problem. Personally I have no problem with middle easterners. Its just religion that pollutes our politics and mass immigration of peoples. I mean I doubt my boston irish crowd n the millions would be accepted in turkey because we are somewhat a redneckish sort. We are rowdy, loud, drink heavily, and fight a lot. Believe me no nation would want a lot of us there. That is normal. Maybe the educated members of my group but that wouldn't be in the millions. we do make good cops, firefighters and tradesmen though ;)


Turks went there as workers after the world war to rebuild Germany. What you said has nothing to do with our subject. They were not so eager to go there only for economic reasons and Germany wanted it too because they had lack of human-power. They are not illegal immigrants.. Germany wanted this, used them and now wants to get rid of them. I believe they should adapt the German society but Germans had faults too.

[Szegedist]

That's only because you occupied them. Wales didn't even exist before the English united it (as part of our realm). It still hasn't existed as an independent state, but should it if the Welsh want it? Yes.

Occupied who? There was no entity called Slovakia then. In fact, during history there was never a thing called Slovakia.

[Albion]

How's a Protestant Parliamentary "Monarchy" with ties to the City of London anyhow remotely similar to what Counterrevolutionaries want?

Seems what a crown is supposed to be has long been forgotten by the Brits, all the way back to 1688.

To a great extent, French Counterrevolutionaries along with Spanish Carlists are the inspiration for most of my positions today. They're of course not common, but they're amongst the smartest people you'll ever talk to. I can't say the same about NS types and certainly not about the lowest of the lowest of the far right: White Nationalists.

I was joking about the monarchy, and the crown is whatever parliament says it should be. The UK is run by parliament since the civil war, it may as well be a republic. We only have a monarchy because Oliver Cromwell turned out to be a dick and we got nostalgic for the monarchy. Cromwell's body was dug up and hung in chains upon the restoration of the monarchy btw.
Stuarts as ever, couldn't be trusted, so a nice protestant monarchy had to be brought in instead eventually.

[Empecinado]

That's hardly better :lol:

All those that descend from Isabel II have only been getting worse and worse.
Seems everything would have been better without the Pragmatic Sanction of 1830.

Of course I don't say this because of my sympathies for Carlists :rolleyes:

Nah, all the Bourbons were bad, the only one who was close to be decent was Carlos III.

[Albion]

It's not the Sicilian way though. Sicilians are more anarchistic and don't trust outsiders.

You mean libertarian?


Occupied who? There was no entity called Slovakia then. In fact, during history there was never a thing called Slovakia.

Occupied Slovaks, their land. Doesn't really matter if they were a state or not.

[Ibericus]

http://geocurrents.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/mapa_pot_nez_ENG.jpg
Holy jesus lord :picard1: ...the fuck is doing Andalusia there ? lol it's a hardcore spanish territory.

[Szegedist]

You mean libertarian?



Occupied Slovaks, their land. Doesn't really matter if they were a state or not.

At this time there was no such thing as slovak. First mention of slovak people comes much later than foundation of Hungarian Kingdom.

Please post sources about existence of slovaks in 800s, 900s.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I think they should be split up in whichever way will piss Rudel off the most.

[Armatus]

I know many Turks married to Germans. But in general maybe it is because you? If you treat them like humans of course they would not be isolated from the society!

That's simply wrong, they have the same rights and the same possibilities as ethnic germans.
They aren't isolated, they isolate themselves. I remember back in school, we didn't have that much immigrants but russians iranians and africans were standing in our circle, whereas kurds and turks always went somewhere else. They simply don't even try, the youngs often speak good turkic but their german sucks. We talk about people born in germany. That's just ridiculous.

[Rudel]

I agree, voting should be restricted to certain members of society. At the very least, the voting age should be raised to 25.
I think democracy is good on a local level, but the age is wrong indeed. I openly consider that I, 23 years old without a wife, children, a job and having no military experience, shouldn't be allowed to vote.


You have no problem with immigrants then, no matter where they're from?
I don't want more immigration. And whatever problems I might have on a personal or instinctive level with those descending from immigrants (because we're talking about people born and raised here for two, sometimes three, generations), I consider it best to act like a man and get over it rather than letting myself swallowed by resentment (that's the Catholic in me talking I guess).
Yes, it would clearly be better if everyone was white and of the same religious background. But that's not the case.


What's with French monarchists too, is this some strange nostalgia?
There are very different flavors of monarchists, many living in the pre-revolutionary decorum and perusing on how everything should be like it was 250 years ago.
That's all cute and all, but I consider myself a post-republican monarchist. I have behind me 200 years of liberalism and I can't ignore it.

I invite you to get interested in Charles Maurras if you want to know my point of view. Of course things changed since his time, and their are point of doctrines I wouldn't agree with because of these changes, but my general thinking goes along these lines.


How common are monarchists in France?
Very uncommon, but funnily enough the idea is starting to picking up again among some eccentric youths.


If you join the Commonwealth, you can have a Queen Elizabeth of France.:lightbul:
I despise liberal constitutional monarchies.


Rudel, we can gladly return you the Bourbons if you want a monarchy :laugh:
I have no care for the Spanish Bourbons.


I'm not entirely comfortable with the control over the economy, that's where it gets similar to communism.
Spoken like a true 'Murican. But liberalism does make sense within the British situation and world-view. It just destroys the rest of the world when applied beyond its natural realm.


Germany wanted this, used them and now wants to get rid of them.
Same situation in France. The minorities that are insulted today are the same our elites chose to import. The indigenous French people was a victim of it, but the immigrants too.

[Albion]

At this time there was no such thing as slovak. First mention of slovak people comes much later than foundation of Hungarian Kingdom.

Please post sources about existence of slovaks in 800s, 900s.

In your opinion, what are Slovaks? Medieval Polish immigrants?

[Szegedist]

In your opinion, what are Slovaks? Medieval Polish immigrants?

My opinion doesn't matter. What matters is that there was never any mention of slovak nation or ethnicity before the rise of romantic nationalism.

[DarkSecret]

That's simply wrong, they have the same rights and the same possibilities as ethnic germans.
They aren't isolated, they isolate themselves. I remember back in school, we didn't have that much immigrants but russians iranians and africans were standing in our circle, whereas kurds and turks always went somewhere else. They simply don't even try, the youngs often speak good turkic but their german sucks. We talk about people born in germany. That's just ridiculous.

I have relatives(born in Germany). Couple of them married to Germans and their children speak Turkish and German both very well. They have German friends also some comes to Turkey with them in holidays. They are not religious this might be a reason. Maybe it's because I don't know the Turkish society well there. In general you might be right...

[Albion]

I think democracy is good on a local level, but the age is wrong indeed. I openly consider that I, 23 years old without a wife, children, a job and having no military experience, shouldn't be allowed to vote.

Agreed.


I don't want more immigration. And whatever problems I might have on a personal or instinctive level with those descending from immigrants (because we're talking about people born and raised here for two, sometimes three, generations), I consider it best to act like a man and get over it rather than letting myself swallowed by resentment (that's the Catholic in me talking I guess).
Yes, it would clearly be better if everyone was white and of the same religious background. But that's not the case.

There's probably no shifting established immigrant populations now. It is rather a gloomy, defeatist position though.


Spoken like a true 'Murican. But liberalism does make sense within the British situation and world-view. It just destroys the rest of the world when applied beyond its natural realm.

No, spoken like a Brit (maybe Dutch too). When governments start preventing private business, that's when our economies suffer. An individual must be allowed to manufacture or trade if he wants to, not just be swallowed up in some soul-less, unworkable state corporatism.
I'm not one of these free trade nutters from the states, economies need supervision and sometimes even protectionist measures from the government. But ultimately too much control and too many do-gooders in government with a fetish for regulating are a bad thing. This is why the EU cripple us.
This is not to say that it's all the EU's fault. The Labor Party is just as much to blame, it's champagne socialists drawing inspiration from Communist planned economies.

This is primarily why we're losing to China and India - because of over regulation. This isn't about banking either (before Baluarte sticks his beak in about the City of London), it's about the manufacturers, the retailers and service providers. Excessive taxation can harm enterprise too, but it isn't the main thing killing business.
India and China are still very pro-business (at least in that the regulations are lax, and what regulation does exist isn't often enforced) and small businesses doing everything are everywhere - people making electronics, cups or rugs, people offering services even down to something as basic as shoe shining.

So shackling economies isn't a good thing, it only works in times of war during military build up (fascist states often being militaristic anyway). Regulation and oversight are necessary, but they need to have limits.
I want to see Europe, and especially Britain and the Netherlands back to their trading and manufacturing excellence.

Culturally though, I'm fairly conserative, but in the Europe sense, not the ultra-Conservative type found in the states (even republicans look a bit extreme to me sometimes, I support democrats on healthcare for example).

[Albion]

My opinion doesn't matter. What matters is that there was never any mention of slovak nation or ethnicity before the rise of romantic nationalism.

Not even under a different name?

[Dandelion]

Why is Vilnius under Belarusian control?

It isn't. The red is of the Lithuanian flag, bordering the red of the Belarussian colours.

[Dandelion]

I voted 'no' assuming Europe gets divided on some utopian (IMO) 'Europe of the regions'. For the rest I hold no love for Belgium and think it's a Francophone concept (obviously). Still, without Belgium we wouldn't have Flemish nationalism neither. One has to keep in mind that our nationalism isn't as strong or authentic as the one you'd see in regions like Catalonia.

I personally see my homeland as Flanders + the Netherlands and think our true ethnicity is 'Dutch' rather than Belgian or Flemish. That doesn't mean, however, we have the same 'state culture' (the one of the Netherlands has been built for 450 years) and hence people don't bother with that history or detail. I also consider the true separation of the Netherlands the one of the 16th century, not the one in 1830.

[Rudel]

This isn't about banking either (before Baluarte sticks his beak in about the City of London), it's about the manufacturers, the retailers and service providers.
Well, it is about banking too. While abstract capitalism (that became financial capitalism, essentially stemming from Medieval Jewish economy) was originally a good way of making the connexion between heterogeneous economies, it came to parasite and devour other sorts of capitalism (may it be entrepreneurial and trade-oriented capitalism that is more characteristic of "Protestants" [even though, as the other sorts of capitalism, it started out during Medieval times and not necessarily in Britain] or industrial and state/corporation-sponsored capitalism that is more characteristic of the continent).

[Dandelion]

I don't.
The destruction of nation states benefits who?

Well, not every state in Europe is a 'nation state'. In my opinion Belgium is more a multi-national state, which is founded on the Francophone nation (the culture of bourgeoisie of the era) who lived in the Southern Low Countries. Later on it evolved into the bureaucratic knot it is today. ;)

[Baluarte]

This isn't about banking either (before Baluarte sticks his beak in about the City of London),

You like dem bankers boy?!

"Repeated bank scandals confirm the City of London as the most corrupt square mile anywhere on the planet earth." ;)

[Rudel]

Well, not every state in Europe is a 'nation state'. In my opinion Belgium is more a multi-national state, which is founded on the Francophone nation (the culture of bourgeoisie of the era) who lived in the Southern Low Countries. Later on it evolved into the bureaucratic knot it is today. ;)
http://i.imgur.com/D8H95nG.png

[LightHouse89]

Agreed.



There's probably no shifting established immigrant populations now. It is rather a gloomy, defeatist position though.



No, spoken like a Brit (maybe Dutch too). When governments start preventing private business, that's when our economies suffer. An individual must be allowed to manufacture or trade if he wants to, not just be swallowed up in some soul-less, unworkable state corporatism.
I'm not one of these free trade nutters from the states, economies need supervision and sometimes even protectionist measures from the government. But ultimately too much control and too many do-gooders in government with a fetish for regulating are a bad thing. This is why the EU cripple us.
This is not to say that it's all the EU's fault. The Labor Party is just as much to blame, it's champagne socialists drawing inspiration from Communist planned economies.

This is primarily why we're losing to China and India - because of over regulation. This isn't about banking either (before Baluarte sticks his beak in about the City of London), it's about the manufacturers, the retailers and service providers. Excessive taxation can harm enterprise too, but it isn't the main thing killing business.
India and China are still very pro-business (at least in that the regulations are lax, and what regulation does exist isn't often enforced) and small businesses doing everything are everywhere - people making electronics, cups or rugs, people offering services even down to something as basic as shoe shining.

So shackling economies isn't a good thing, it only works in times of war during military build up (fascist states often being militaristic anyway). Regulation and oversight are necessary, but they need to have limits.
I want to see Europe, and especially Britain and the Netherlands back to their trading and manufacturing excellence.

Culturally though, I'm fairly conserative, but in the Europe sense, not the ultra-Conservative type found in the states (even republicans look a bit extreme to me sometimes, I support democrats on healthcare for example).

Romney woud have known what to do with Healthcare. Obama is a moron, but judging his mother and father were known Communists. Almost all of the leading Democrat were Socialists in their youth. I am extremely distrustful of those snakes. Romney made it mandatory in Massachusetts for healthcare and it worked here where as it failed nation wide. As a matter of fact people have lost their healthcare and lots of money as a result of Obozo's stupidity. Democrats are retarded. I do not like Republicans either. I like Independents. I voted for Romney because he could fix healthcare as he did this in Massachusetts when he was Governor. Who would be better at implanting heathcare for the baby bombers? A moron from Chicago or a Governor who made it mandatory in a heavily populated state with a lot of business and heath insurance costs. In Mass I do no have an issue with health insurance I can get it a number of ways, through your employer.

[LightHouse89]

That's simply wrong, they have the same rights and the same possibilities as ethnic germans.
They aren't isolated, they isolate themselves. I remember back in school, we didn't have that much immigrants but russians iranians and africans were standing in our circle, whereas kurds and turks always went somewhere else. They simply don't even try, the youngs often speak good turkic but their german sucks. We talk about people born in germany. That's just ridiculous.

Africans in Germany. Oh wonderful. I hear one joined the jihad movement and is a rapper in southern Germany. I hope that pig gets hanged.

[LightHouse89]

I think the problem aren't the immigrants, it's their will to not marry europeans. I rarely see mixed couples here (don't know about the situation in france) and most of the turks here live in a kind of parallel society. German and french people are mixed themselves and absorbed numerous waves of immigrants and expelled tribes. If muslims would quickly mix with us i wouldn't care about european demographics. But fact is (atleast in germany) that they marry only each other, getting more numerous and create a social split rather than one mixed nation.

Just don't mix with those blacks. Ick German hybrid black babies.....I do not mind small numbers of turks. I know turks and some middle easterners. So long as they do not practice radical extreme islam. That should be banned and if practiced hang them.

[Illancha]

I'm very much a bottom-up structure oriented person so yes, definitely.

[LightHouse89]

I'm very much a bottom-up structure oriented person so yes, definitely.

so your a confederate in a way? ! the tunes of Dixie took too the winds!

[Tchek]

Well, not every state in Europe is a 'nation state'. In my opinion Belgium is more a multi-national state, which is founded on the Francophone nation (the culture of bourgeoisie of the era) who lived in the Southern Low Countries. Later on it evolved into the bureaucratic knot it is today. ;)
Well it used to be a "nation" (before federalism) now it's more an artificial state than a nation. Francophonia is moribund in Belgium IMO, the economic gap is getting bigger, the old francophone nobility is on the verge of suicide, hiding in their tiny castles/villas and the king/queen are desperate to send their kids to Dutch speaking schools :)

http://i.imgur.com/D8H95nG.png
Where is Wallonia in this picture?
This picture was true in the 19th century but not anymore.

[Armatus]

Just don't mix with those blacks. Ick German hybrid black babies.....I do not mind small numbers of turks. I know turks and some middle easterners. So long as they do not practice radical extreme islam. That should be banned and if practiced hang them.

I think a quick mix with blacks would simply eliminate them and upcoming social tensions. We have 500,000 Blacks here and 62,000,000 ethnic germans, if we would mix with them there wouldn't be much left except some tiny bits of ssa dna in a couple generations. If we don't assimilate them, they will get more numerous and destabilize the country.
Radical islamists always get exposed here ,we had not a single bombing despite multiple got planned.
The only problem are our penalties, which aren't hard enough. I would put extremists of different subextremism clades in a walled area, give everybody a knife and they will solve my problem for me.
The last survivor gets a rock attached on his feet and makes a nice summer dive in the north sea.

[Smaug]

It isn't. The red is of the Lithuanian flag, bordering the red of the Belarussian colours.

Aye but that's not the case, they did put Vilnius under Belarussian rule:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilnius_Region

[LightHouse89]

I'm very much a bottom-up structure oriented person so yes, definitely.

that's good so long as religion isn't radical. Chechens strike me more as nationalists as oppose to radical religious people. Now I know afew exists two bombed Boston [which is right next door to my city] but only 200 chechens live in America and they condemned those attacks.

[LightHouse89]

I think a quick mix with blacks would simply eliminate them and upcoming social tensions. We have 500,000 Blacks here and 62,000,000 ethnic germans, if we would mix with them there wouldn't be much left except some tiny bits of ssa dna in a couple generations. If we don't assimilate them, they will get more numerous and destabilize the country.
Radical islamists always get exposed here ,we had not a single bombing despite multiple got planned.
The only problem are our penalties, which aren't hard enough. I would put extremists of different subextremism clades in a walled area, give everybody a knife and they will solve my problem for me.
The last survivor gets a rock attached on his feet and makes a nice summer dive in the north sea.

makes sense. Why do you say Turks have a trouble assimilating? Here they do not have any problem. Infact the head CEO of coca cola is a turk. My neighbor is a Turk but looks like he is from the Balkans. He is kinda funny, I saw him riding on his lawnmower drinking a bottle of vodka. He invited me over for some numerous times. I noticed it depends on how extreme they are with religion but I have never ran across one just afew orthodox Muslims but they do not bother any body or commit much crime. Here though for a long time Mosques were wire tapped to ensure they were not preaching extremism. Most Muslims here did not mind but constitutionalist found fault with it which they are right to a degree but we want to trust them so we do not have to worry.

So far not so many issues. The FBI catches them most of the time except recently with those two turds from Chechnya well I think they were born here] . They attended a liberal Mosque here and the Mosque closed down for a awhile because people protested outside of it. I did watch videos of the Imam who ran it and he is a white American oddly enough. He and the other Islamic religious leaders condemned that behavior though along with the entire Islamic community of America. They protested with the average citizens so I do not have problems with them just radical jerk offs. Here we have a Christian church called the Westboro Baptist church and they protest at soldier funerals and call America and every country satan countries and what not and express a lot of hate so they are a potential problem. Me nd my friends went to their last rally and threw eggs at them when they tried to protest at a soldiers funeral. I enjoyed that. When ever they organize the entire police force is out in riot gear.

[Illancha]

so your a confederate in a way? ! the tunes of Dixie took too the winds!
Honestly I'm not very familiar with American history and politics so I cannot really comment on what a confederate consists of in an American sense. I have no idea whether I am or not.


that's good so long as religion isn't radical. Chechens strike me more as nationalists as oppose to radical religious people. Now I know afew exists two bombed Boston [which is right next door to my city] but only 200 chechens live in America and they condemned those attacks.
The attacks were condemned pretty much by all Chechens world wide.

The struggle for independence started purely as a nationalistic cause, things are more complicated nowadays though, but to an overwhelming degree it still is about nationalism as opposed to religion.

[Graham]

I'm very much a bottom-up structure oriented person so yes, definitely.

Same, I'd like for even our Western Isles, Highlands & Northern Isles, to have a sort of Home Rule. That benefits them.

And to to put power into local areas & communities.

[The King, I am]

Not in Ireland

[Dandelion]

Aye but that's not the case, they did put Vilnius under Belarussian rule:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilnius_Region

Probably drawn by a loose hand. ;)

[Dandelion]

Well it used to be a "nation" (before federalism) now it's more an artificial state than a nation. Francophonia is moribund in Belgium IMO, the economic gap is getting bigger, the old francophone nobility is on the verge of suicide, hiding in their tiny castles/villas and the king/queen are desperate to send their kids to Dutch speaking schools :)

Where is Wallonia in this picture?
This picture was true in the 19th century but not anymore.

Wallonia is more ambiguous in the matter I guess. It's more or less part of Francophonia but it would be very wrong to equate Belgian Francophonia with just Wallonia.
Also, I think the picture is indeed more of a 19th century phenomenon than a contemporary, even though living fossils keep existing to this day.

Also, it's funny how Flanders is also a Belgian concept and just as fake as Belgium. The only reason it got created was in order to create a Catholic Germanic culture that's still very distinct from the Dutch one. Even more ironic is that during the era of Romanticism you would have a Francophone like Charles De Coster using symbolism (the Dutch Revolt in the Southern Low Countries and resistance to the Catholic church) that would rather suit our nationalism in his Tuil Uylenspieghel to make a anti-clerical stance in his case.
The subject kind of wasn't conformist to Belgian standards for obvious reasons because it used Dutch national myths rather than Flemish or Belgian ones, which is why it was popular in France of the era (French people only see the anti-clericalism and don't care about local myths), but ignored in Belgium and fairly unknown in Flanders which awkwardly was busy inventing its own lame national myths. De Coster was more anti-clerical than a nationalist of any sort, though, but nationalism got his work being ignored in Belgium. ;)

Because both Belgium (Francophone invention) and Flanders (Catholic invention) are lame concepts, nationalism is very low here. In the 21st century all of that isn't relevant no more anyway. Even in true nation states nationalism is fading rather quickly. Individual > nation in my opinion, though I remain wary of those who go full-on Europhile mode.

The main reason however to vote 'no' in this poll is because I know human nature well enough to realise that people hate abrupt changes and chaos.

[Styggnacke]

If Lapps are included in the "non-independent states", then definitely not.

[LightHouse89]

Honestly I'm not very familiar with American history and politics so I cannot really comment on what a confederate consists of in an American sense. I have no idea whether I am or not.


The attacks were condemned pretty much by all Chechens world wide.

The struggle for independence started purely as a nationalistic cause, things are more complicated nowadays though, but to an overwhelming degree it still is about nationalism as opposed to religion.

Confederates were Seperatists in the South who wanted to break away from the Union States which were dominated by the Washington President Lincoln and Congress. Confederates felt state rights were more constitutional than a central government which dictates the direction of every state. Our nation was divided on the issue in the late 1800s. Modern historians say the issue was over slavery which was and is a big lie. It really had o do with taxes and inter state commerce. Also natural resources. Today Southerners still hate the Northern states. I am a Northerner but my sympathies are with the South and Confederacy. My flag avatar is the flag of the Confederate states of America. In a way the Chechens are similar that they want self rule as did the Confederate states. Confederates though were isolationists and anti foreign policy as they viewed this as political wrong to march armies into foreign lands for economic gains. They followed the constitution of the founding fathers and in a way they were right. Look at America today our government violates its constitution which to a Confederate is a criminal act.

[LightHouse89]

Same, I'd like for even our Western Isles, Highlands & Northern Isles, to have a sort of Home Rule. That benefits them.

And to to put power into local areas & communities.

Your a confederate! to arms in Dixie!

[Armatus]

makes sense. Why do you say Turks have a trouble assimilating? Here they do not have any problem. Infact the head CEO of coca cola is a turk. My neighbor is a Turk but looks like he is from the Balkans. He is kinda funny, I saw him riding on his lawnmower drinking a bottle of vodka. He invited me over for some numerous times. I noticed it depends on how extreme they are with religion but I have never ran across one just afew orthodox Muslims but they do not bother any body or commit much crime. Here though for a long time Mosques were wire tapped to ensure they were not preaching extremism. Most Muslims here did not mind but constitutionalist found fault with it which they are right to a degree but we want to trust them so we do not have to worry.
You pretty much summed it up. I know a few turks too, which are perfectly integrated and these are the ones that rarely go to the mosque. On the other hand there are extremly religious ones. They don't even try to get to know germans. These are the ones marrying their cousins and refuse to learn the german language. I think the next few generations could solve the problems, the Ruhr-poles weren't integrated in just 40 years too.

[LightHouse89]

You pretty much summed it up. I know a few turks too, which are perfectly integrated and these are the ones that rarely go to the mosque. On the other hand there are extremly religious ones. They don't even try to get to know germans. These are the ones marrying their cousins and refuse to learn the german language. I think the next few generations could solve the problems, the Ruhr-poles weren't integrated in just 40 years too.

Native Americans here refuse to integrate in the majority of America. Well the western tribes do not. I do not blame them. If they would lose their culture and religion. They seem primitive but are pretty cool people. Our of all the groups in history I would say America screwed them over the most. What I like about them is they never throw it in you face even though its obvious. In their culture it is forbidden to drink, for some reason alcohol turns them extremely violent. This is why in some towns [native towns] you can be arrested for having alcohol on you or on your property. This is mostly in very rural places. They are pretty cool you can buy cheap cigarettes off of them and they never tax you on anything you buy from them. I would say most I have met were honest but they refuse to adopt the nations system because it will ruin theirs. Most in New England have fully integrated into our society. African Americans are the biggest trouble to America and the most untrustworthy group you will ever run across.

[Longbowman]

I support the right to self-determination. But, I don't think most of the examples given should be independent. I dismiss out of hand the opinions of people who don't live in the relevant countries (ie: plastic Paddies or other 'celtic' Nationalists crying 'free Ireland/Scotland/Kingdom of Strathclyde!' which just mocks the whole concept of freedom: no one is being kept against their will here) as irrelevant, ignorant and intrusive, however.

[Albion]

I support the right to self-determination. But, I don't think most of the examples given should be independent. I dismiss out of hand the opinions of people who don't live in the relevant countries (ie: plastic Paddies or other 'celtic' Nationalists crying 'free Ireland/Scotland/Kingdom of Strathclyde!' which just mocks the whole concept of freedom: no one is being kept against their will here) as irrelevant, ignorant and intrusive, however.

Americans with 1/6th Irish ancestry for example, pretending to be Irish and wailing on about a country they know little about and some islands they're not even from and have never experienced. Melonhead is a good example here. :picard2:
Also, the Anglophobic Celtic nationalists (so most of them) are annoying too, but the worst are the Anglophobic ones who degrade English nationalists :picard1: - it's senseless, both want the same thing (break up of the UK), yet many Celtic nationalists will slur English nationalism out of their petty jealousy (which is a key component of Celtic nationalisms in the first place - inferiority complex towards England).

There are good Celtic nationalists too though (like Graham on here), but there are at least 10 bad ones for every one of them.

[Longbowman]

Americans with 1/6th Irish ancestry for example, pretending to be Irish and wailing on about a country they know little about and some islands they're not even from and have never experienced. Melonhead is a good example here. :picard2:
Also, the Anglophobic Celtic nationalists (so most of them) are annoying too, but the worst are the Anglophobic ones who degrade English nationalists :picard1: - it's senseless, both want the same thing (break up of the UK), yet many Celtic nationalists will slur English nationalism out of their petty jealousy (which is a key component of Celtic nationalisms in the first place - inferiority complex towards England).

There are good Celtic nationalists too though (like Graham on here), but there are at least 10 bad ones for every one of them.

Well, I personally think the British Isles would work well as a completely unified, federal country (Ireland could be united under it) but outside my fantasies, I think people who press for the dismantling of a very successful state for very silly historical reasons are misguided. Bear in mind that culturally we have very little that differs between people from John o' Groats and the Isle of Wight. It bugs me when people 'of Celtic descent' (oh well done, you. If the decision won't affect you [directly], you don't get a say in it) throw their two pennies' worth (more like no pennies' worth, ba-dum tsh) as if it means cop. If a majority of Northern Irish people actually wanted to split from the UK, I'd respect their (poorly thought out) decision, as would the British government, as demonstrated by the Scottish referendum and the Good Friday agreements. No more really needs to be said, now, does it?

[KidMulat]

Confederates were Seperatists in the South who wanted to break away from the Union States which were dominated by the Washington President Lincoln and Congress. Confederates felt state rights were more constitutional than a central government which dictates the direction of every state. Our nation was divided on the issue in the late 1800s. Modern historians say the issue was over slavery which was and is a big lie. It really had o do with taxes and inter state commerce. Also natural resources. Today Southerners still hate the Northern states. I am a Northerner but my sympathies are with the South and Confederacy. My flag avatar is the flag of the Confederate states of America. In a way the Chechens are similar that they want self rule as did the Confederate states. Confederates though were isolationists and anti foreign policy as they viewed this as political wrong to march armies into foreign lands for economic gains. They followed the constitution of the founding fathers and in a way they were right. Look at America today our government violates its constitution which to a Confederate is a criminal act.


Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition. [Applause.] This, our new Government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It is so even amongst us.


Many Governments have been founded upon the principles of certain classes; but the classes thus enslaved, were of the same race, and in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature's laws. The negro by nature, or by the curse against Canaan, [note: A reference to Genesis, 9:20-27, which was used as a justification for slavery] is fitted for that condition which he occupies in our system. The architect, in the construction of buildings, lays the foundation with the proper material-the granite-then comes the brick or the marble. The substratum of our society is made of the material fitted by nature for it, and by experience we know that it is the best, not only for the superior but for the inferior race, that it should be so. It is, indeed, in conformity with the Creator. It is not for us to inquire into the wisdom of His ordinances or to question them. For His own purposes He has made one race to differ from another, as He has made "one star to differ from another in glory."

The great objects of humanity are best attained, when conformed to his laws and degrees [sic], in the formation of Governments as well as in all things else. Our Confederacy is founded upon principles in strict conformity with these laws. This stone which was rejected by the first builders "is become the chief stone of the corner" in our new edifice.


Why don't any Confederate Sympathizers who makes these claims ever read or mention the Cornerstone Address...

[Albion]

Well, I personally think the British Isles would work well as a completely unified, federal country (Ireland could be united under it) but outside my fantasies,

Yeah, I agree with that. But the Ireland in reality would never rejoin the UK. The best we could hope for would be to federate the current UK, although England will inevitably either be denied a government or will be divided (since the size of it makes Westminster nervous in giving it autonomy).


Bear in mind that culturally we have very little that differs between people from John o' Groats and the Isle of Wight. It bugs me when people 'of Celtic descent' (oh well done, you. If the decision won't affect you [directly], you don't get a say in it) throw their two pennies' worth (more like no pennies' worth, ba-dum tsh) as if it means cop.

There are cultural differences, but less so than in most of Europe, probably much less than between different French or Italian regions for example. I dislike using the Pan-British identity at the expense of our individual ones though, in my opinion, 'British' is a collection related of peoples, not one monolithic ethnicity in its own right.

[Graham]

Bear in mind that culturally we have very little that differs between people from John o' Groats and the Isle of Wight.

Have you been to John O'Groats, Wick or Thurso? It's like going back in time. They are different to the Scots Central Belt. Never mind Isle of Wight. lol Bleak.

[Longbowman]

Have you been to John O'Groats, Wick or Thurso? It's like going back in time. They are different to the Scots Central Belt. Never mind Isle of Wight. lol Bleak.

Different but not hugely so. Besides, they're both equally bleak.

[Albion]

Different but not hugely so. Besides, they're both equally bleak.

Isle of Wight is nice.

[Longbowman]

Isle of Wight is nice.

I must admit to never having been to either, but I can't imagine the Isle is significantly culturally different from Portsmouth and surrounding cities and countryside. Or from England in general, really, particularly the south/southeast.

[Graham]

Honestly google street John O'Groats & look around. It's Craggy island off father Ted. :D


City Centre: http://goo.gl/maps/r2T8k

[Longbowman]

Honestly google street John O'Groats & look around. It's Craggy island off father Ted. :D


City Centre: http://goo.gl/maps/r2T8k

Yeah but it doesn't differ hugely from various other nowheres in the UK. The village I live in is so tiny it doesn't have a pub. Two churches though! And it's a lot greener and more forested than John o' Groats. You're just describing a rural/urban clash, not a Scottish/English one :)

Indeed, the city centre. I can imagine stumbling back home on a night out from there. The southern road seems like kind of a rough area, I think you'd want to avoid it.

[Comte Arnau]

I sincerely hope to see an independent Scotland by 2016, and Catalonia soon after. It's as simple as the difference between being crying babies or adults. And third ways are for trannies.

[Rudel]

There are cultural differences, but less so than in most of Europe, probably much less than between different French or Italian regions for example. I dislike using the Pan-British identity at the expense of our individual ones though, in my opinion, 'British' is a collection related of peoples, not one monolithic ethnicity in its own right.
France is less fragmented than the UK (don't take the maps of the various cultures, languages or whatever of France too seriously). There aren't different nations or peoples within France. Actually all of our neighbors are much more fragmented than we are. Italy is on a completely different level.

I'm not even sure it's more fragmented than England proper. The variations of accents for example are outrageous compared to France.


Wallonia is more ambiguous in the matter I guess. It's more or less part of Francophonia but it would be very wrong to equate Belgian Francophonia with just Wallonia.
Yes, the number of French-speakers among the Flemish (and the Dutch to an extent) is impressive. Especially since I expected them to treat anything French as the third nipple of Satan.

[Albion]

France is less fragmented than the UK (don't take the maps of the various cultures, languages or whatever of France too seriously). There aren't different nations or peoples within France. Actually all of our neighbors are much more fragmented than we are. Italy is on a completely different level.

I'm not even sure it's more fragmented than England proper. The variations of accents for example are outrageous compared to France.


UK has always been separate kingdoms, even when England controlled different ones, they weren't usually incorporated into England proper. France on the other hand absorbed new regions into the state, that might be why.
England proper is very homogeneous though, I'd say one of the most homogeneous countries in Europe (not counting our recent immigration issues). Certainly our north / south differences are a lot less than yours.

[Longbowman]

France is less fragmented than the UK (don't take the maps of the various cultures, languages or whatever of France too seriously). There aren't different nations or peoples within France. Actually all of our neighbors are much more fragmented than we are. Italy is on a completely different level.

I'm not even sure it's more fragmented than England proper. The variations of accents for example are outrageous compared to France.


Yes, the number of French-speakers among the Flemish (and the Dutch to an extent) is impressive. Especially since I expected them to treat anything French as the third nipple of Satan.

I disagree. The difference between the Bretons and Basque and French is huge. Even within the French, you have the Providencal/Catalan speakers of the South and those who speak the languages d'huile in the north. Plus the German speakers in Alsace and the Dutch in the very north and of course the Corsican/Italian independence movement. So I have to disagree.

Plus, considering France's overseas territories are considered part of Metropolitan France, I can firmly say the difference between Tahiti and the rest of Polynesia and New Caledonia and Mayotte and France is faaaaar larger than the difference between Yorkshire and Devon ;)

[Longbowman]

I sincerely hope to see an independent Scotland by 2016, and Catalonia soon after. It's as simple as the difference between being crying babies or adults. And third ways are for trannies.

Don't know what this means.

Scotland will remain part of a United kingdom, and why shouldn't it? If a majority of people wanted to split, I would support them, but I see no reason for them to.

[Comte Arnau]

Don't know what this means.

Scotland will remain part of a United kingdom, and why shouldn't it? If a majority of people wanted to split, I would support them, but I see no reason for them to.

Well, I agree with you on that. Only if a majority wants it.

[LightHouse89]

A united Ireland!

[LightHouse89]

Scotland should be annexed to Ireland. England and Wales should be 'Britain'. [hahahaha].

[LightHouse89]

Americans with 1/6th Irish ancestry for example, pretending to be Irish and wailing on about a country they know little about and some islands they're not even from and have never experienced. Melonhead is a good example here. :picard2:
Also, the Anglophobic Celtic nationalists (so most of them) are annoying too, but the worst are the Anglophobic ones who degrade English nationalists :picard1: - it's senseless, both want the same thing (break up of the UK), yet many Celtic nationalists will slur English nationalism out of their petty jealousy (which is a key component of Celtic nationalisms in the first place - inferiority complex towards England).

There are good Celtic nationalists too though (like Graham on here), but there are at least 10 bad ones for every one of them.

Well I think Ireland should be free but should work with Britain and not build some Iron wall but then again I am anti Republicanism because of its association with Communism. I have never agreed with Commie Irishmen nationalists. My families Irish heritage is pretty significant, although we have some German and French but not that much. I just dislike Northern Irish jerk offs that think little Ulster is so significant and that a minority of people get to have so much power. It would be far more rational to have just one Ireland. I do not know if Unionists feel threatened if they were under an Irish free state, to me it would be good for them and in a ay they could have duel citizenship and vote in two countries to sweeten such a deal. I do not view myself as a plastic paddy necessarily. For some reason that little island has always had an influence on me....maybe my upbringing. My dad is descended from Northern Irish colonists. A shame separatism has never taken shape where I live because I would be all for it. Maybe annex New York for agricultural reasons? It has its uses and also military bases. This would never happen even though at one time Vermont was its own country and republic.

[Longbowman]

Well I think Ireland should be free but should work with Britain and not build some Iron wall but then again I am anti Republicanism because of its association with Communism. I have never agreed with Commie Irishmen nationalists. My families Irish heritage is pretty significant, although we have some German and French but not that much. I just dislike Northern Irish jerk offs that think little Ulster is so significant and that a minority of people get to have so much power. It would be far more rational to have just one Ireland. I do not know if Unionists feel threatened if they were under an Irish free state, to me it would be good for them and in a ay they could have duel citizenship and vote in two countries to sweeten such a deal. I do not view myself as a plastic paddy necessarily. For some reason that little island has always had an influence on me....maybe my upbringing. My dad is descended from Northern Irish colonists. A shame separatism has never taken shape where I live because I would be all for it. Maybe annex New York for agricultural reasons? It has its uses and also military bases. This would never happen even though at one time Vermont was its own country and republic.

The expression 'plastic Paddy' simply refers to people who aren't actually Irish (usually of Irish or partial Irish descent) who still try to influence Ireland and Britain on the issue or consider themselves Irish first, American (or whatever) second. It doesn't really reflect knowledge or lack of knowledge about Ireland. The fact remains, you wouldn't want us telling you what to do in America/Canada/wherever (as proven by that stupid Guardian campaign in Ohio, http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/3981823.stm :D ) and the reverse is also true. If you don't live here, you don't get a say. It doesn't mean you're not ethnically Irish, but it does mean you aren't Irish by nationality, so you don't get a say on the issue.

As for the dual national thing, anyone with one grandparent born on the island of Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship, which means all Unionists are already entitled to dual nationality on the issue. They opt not to take it. Ultimately, what good would it do them?

[LightHouse89]

It would make them more irish and integrate into the country maybe. Unionism to me just seems retarded. But the modern Irish population do not really care and have become more pacifistic. Not to mention Irish people [not northerner Unionist] can get British citizenship no problem as oppose to Americans like me. But we do in a way get told how we should live over here, especially when it comes to certain rights and how we live over here. I hear it all the time especially about the gun issue. Most Europeans do not realize that the more rural states are liberal on those rights as oppose to places like where I live where its extremely difficult to get those rights or use them unless your a cop, government worker or former soldier then its no problem. Anyway I do not try to influence Ireland, as a matter of fact he majority of Irish people [I would think all of them] could give two shits about my opinion because I wasn't born there.

I despite it when a Unionist from Northern Ireland tells me I am not Irish what so ever but a Nigerian born there has more of a right to say they are 'Irish'. I am like yeah his DNA underwent a metamorphosis to transform him genetically into the Irish population. hahaahh wow that's magic. I would say heritage wise I have significant heritage from the South and some from the North/Ulster area. I just think Ulster being separated from the rest of the Island is retarded to me. I just think Unionist there are stupid because they do not see themselves as being Irish but British so that's where I am like for Christ sake your Irish not British. British citizenship wise yes but not British. If they were British they would be born in Scotland or Wales, or England.

[Longbowman]

[QUOTE]It would make them more irish and integrate into the country maybe.

Hear me, though, it's already offered to them. Any Northern Irishman could claim Irish citizenship anytime. They plain don't want it.


Unionism to me just seems retarded.

They've been British for at least 400 years. English settlement in Ireland dates to the 1100s. Northern Ireland has been British for longer than America or South Africa has been white.


But the modern Irish population do not really care and have become more pacifistic.

Is it really worth fighting over?


I hear it all the time especially about the gun issue.

I think you're mistaking criticism from within the country that compares other countries to America. Listen, my dad's American by nationality and I've held dual citizenship since birth, but as neither he nor I live there, we don't feel that we have the right to influence decisions over there.


Most Europeans do not realize that the more rural states are liberal on those rights as oppose to places like where I live where its extremely difficult to get those rights or use them unless your a cop, government worker or former soldier then its no problem. Anyway I do not try to influence Ireland, as a matter of fact he majority of Irish people [I would think all of them] could give two shits about my opinion because I wasn't born there.

Of course we realise that. It's actually true here, too. You see, we don't have a blanket ban on guns, per se. We just heavily restrict their sales, but if you're a farmer it's quite easy to get a shotgun license. You just need a good reason to buy one. Mexico has far stricter gun control.


I despite it when a Unionist from Northern Ireland tells me I am not Irish what so ever but a Nigerian born there has more of a right to say they are 'Irish'. I am like yeah his DNA underwent a metamorphosis to transform him genetically into the Irish population. hahaahh wow that's magic. I would say heritage wise I have significant heritage from the South and some from the North/Ulster area. I just think Ulster being separated from the rest of the Island is retarded to me. I just think Unionist there are stupid because they do not see themselves as being Irish but British so that's where I am like for Christ sake your Irish not British. British citizenship wise yes but not British. If they were British they would be born in Scotland or Wales, or England.


Why do you care? America is your country, and it's a great country :) let them make their mistakes (NI is 99.8% white, mostly White British/Irish, so your example isn't great by the way). But bear in mind they know more about the issue than you do (not you personally, you the average non-Ulsterman). The United Kingdom isn't really an ethnic union at all, but that said, the genetic difference between the various British peoples is not large. But you know, like I say, the Prods have been their long enough. It's not that they've become Irish, it's that the land has become theirs. They worked it, developed it, made it into what it is - Ireland was a fractured, sparsely populated backwater in the 1400s.

[LightHouse89]

I suppose Irish Americans get this way............. When in reality they should feel this way hahahahha. It just pisses me of when I am labeled a 'plastic paddy' when I mention my heritage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wS5xOZ7Rq8

[Longbowman]

I suppose Irish Americans get this way............. When in reality they should feel this way hahahahha. It just pisses me of when I am labeled a 'plastic paddy' when I mention my heritage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wS5xOZ7Rq8

Jon LaJoie is just excellent.

But think 'small government' :)

[Rudel]

I disagree. The difference between the Bretons and Basque and French is huge.
Not really, plus the Basque are a very very small number. There are more Pakis in London than Basques in France.


Even within the French, you have the Providencal/Catalan speakers of the South and those who speak the languages d'huile in the north.
There's no such thing as Providencal, there's Provençal. Nobody speaks it (except me). There are no such things as the "langues d'huile" (and it's frankly hilarious to read), there are the langues d'oïl, that is the dialectal versions of French.
They don't exist anymore, at all. They're deader than any other dialect or language in France.

People should really get off the linguistic maps of France, because in real life everybody just speaks French.


Plus the German speakers in Alsace and the Dutch in the very north and of course the Corsican/Italian independence movement. So I have to disagree.
Alsatians speak French, with a minority (~20%, making it the most spoken dialect in proportion in France) that also speaks Alsatian at home. Someone living in Aix-en-Provence is muuuuuch closer to someone living in Strasbourg or Colmar than to someone living in Rome or Madrid, you can believe me.

Corsica isn't Italian (never say something like that to a Corsican), and the independence movement is kind of a joke.


Plus, considering France's overseas territories are considered part of Metropolitan France
No, they're not. Some are fully part of the Republic, though.


I can firmly say the difference between Tahiti and the rest of Polynesia and New Caledonia and Mayotte and France is faaaaar larger than the difference between Yorkshire and Devon ;)
New-Caledonia or Polynesia are as much France as Jersey and Guernsey are England. They have very specific status.

When you think of divergent identities in France, think of it as something like Cornwall, not Scotland.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

[QUOTE=NormanDePoer;2141684]

Hear me, though, it's already offered to them. Any Northern Irishman could claim Irish citizenship anytime. They plain don't want it.



They've been British for at least 400 years. English settlement in Ireland dates to the 1100s. Northern Ireland has been British for longer than America or South Africa has been white.



Is it really worth fighting over?



I think you're mistaking criticism from within the country that compares other countries to America. Listen, my dad's American by nationality and I've held dual citizenship since birth, but as neither he nor I live there, we don't feel that we have the right to influence decisions over there.



Of course we realise that. It's actually true here, too. You see, we don't have a blanket ban on guns, per se. We just heavily restrict their sales, but if you're a farmer it's quite easy to get a shotgun license. You just need a good reason to buy one. Mexico has far stricter gun control.



Why do you care? America is your country, and it's a great country :) let them make their mistakes (NI is 99.8% white, mostly White British/Irish, so your example isn't great by the way). But bear in mind they know more about the issue than you do (not you personally, you the average non-Ulsterman). The United Kingdom isn't really an ethnic union at all, but that said, the genetic difference between the various British peoples is not large. But you know, like I say, the Prods have been their long enough. It's not that they've become Irish, it's that the land has become theirs. They worked it, developed it, made it into what it is - Ireland was a fractured, sparsely populated backwater in the 1400s.

So basically go along with whatever the government tells you to do? lol. You sound like a spokesperson for the european union.

I think UK is pretty much turned to shit, it would be nice to see Ireland not fall into same sad state and retain something of what's good about it. US has pretty much turned to shit too and lifestyle like I had growing up is nearly impossible to attain these days.

[Longbowman]

[QUOTE]Not really, plus the Basque are a very very small number. There are more Pakis in London than Basques in France.

Yes really. There are more Arabs in Marseille than Pakis in London ;)



There's no such thing as Providencal, there's Provençal. Nobody speaks it (except me). There are no such things as the "langues d'huile" (and it's frankly hilarious to read), there are the langues d'oïl, that is the dialectal versions of French.
They don't exist anymore, at all. They're deader than any other dialect or language in France.


Gallo is dead? Normand is dead? You're right about Provencal, of course, and d'oil.


People should really get off the linguistic maps of France, because in real life everybody just speaks French.


Everyone speaks English here, except small minorities, just like in France.


Alsatians speak French, with a minority (~20%, making it the most spoken dialect in proportion in France) that also speaks Alsatian at home. Someone living in Aix-en-Provence is muuuuuch closer to someone living in Strasbourg or Colmar than to someone living in Rome or Madrid, you can believe me.


Of course, but the same's true for a Scotsman or Cornishman.


Corsica isn't Italian (never say something like that to a Corsican), and the independence movement is kind of a joke.


Corsican is more similar to the Tuscan dialect than any other language.


No, they're not. Some are fully part of the Republic, though.


Yes, that's what what I wrote meant.


New-Caledonia or Polynesia are as much France as Jersey and Guernsey are England. They have very specific status.


Jersey and Guernsey aren't part of England. They're Crown Dependencies.


When you think of divergent identities in France, think of it as something like Cornwall, not Scotland.

No. Britanny is to France as Wales or Scotland is to the UK.

[Rudel]

Yes really. There are more Arabs in Marseille than Pakis in London ;)
I doubt it. And even so, I don't see how it's relevant to the conversation.


Gallo is dead? Normand is dead?
Yes.


Of course, but the same's true for a Scotsman or Cornishman.
Except a Scotsman is from a different nation altogether.


Corsican is more similar to the Tuscan dialect than any other language.
Yes. And pretty much nobody has Corsican has a mother language in Corsica.


Jersey and Guernsey aren't part of England. They're Crown Dependencies.
Exactly. Like New-Caledonia isn't part of Metropolitan France or full part of the Republic. It has a semi-independent status. It even has its own currency.


No. Britanny is to France as Wales or Scotland is to the UK.
No, it's not. Brittany isn't a different nation, Bretons aren't a different people, it doesn't have a different system, it doesn't have a different parliament or laws, it doesn't have a different religion or a different culture (a bit on the edges, but that's it), half of it used to have a different language but that's gone. It's as much part of France as Paris or Perpignan. If you can't grasp that, well fuck you.

[Longbowman]

[QUOTE=Longbowman;2141713]

So basically go along with whatever the government tells you to do? lol. You sound like a spokesperson for the european union.

I think UK is pretty much turned to shit, it would be nice to see Ireland not fall into same sad state and retain something of what's good about it. US has pretty much turned to shit too and lifestyle like I had growing up is nearly impossible to attain these days.

You come from America, according to your information, so I'm just going to discount your opinion wholesale and tell you to stick your nose out of our business. Besides, the Government hasn't 'told me to say anything' but you know, sometimes the government gets it right. Not everyone is in a conspiracy. In this case (defending our Northern Ireland policy) nearly EVERY Englishman (and fair minded person) is on my side.

'Growing up is nearly impossible to attain' - just like a good English teacher, hm?

[Longbowman]

[QUOTE]I doubt it. And even so, I don't see how it's relevant to the conversation.


Mate, I've been to Marseille. And I don't either, but you brought up our immigrants. We're whiter than you, in terms of % of our population. According to official estimates, you're 85% White and 10% North African, whereas we're 88% White and <8% south Asian. So you have more Arabs than we have Pakistanis. Fact.



Yes.

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo_language -28,000 speakers (data ultimately from Ethnologue, which usually knows what it's talking about)
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo -28,000 - 200,000.


Except a Scotsman is from a different nation altogether.


Well, Scotland and England are respectively different constituent countries in the UK, but culturally we're incredibly similar, especially the Lowland Scots and the Northern English. It's just one long cultural continuum.


Yes. And pretty much nobody has Corsican has a mother language in Corsica.


10%, apparently. More than Scots who speak Gaelic (<2%). There are 230,000 speaker. Here's the page on Corsican, in the Corsican language itself: http://co.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_corsa


Exactly. Like New-Caledonia isn't part of Metropolitan France or full part of the Republic. It has a semi-independent status. It even has its own currency.


New Caledonia is the only one of your possessions where this is true, though. The European Space Agency does most of its work in French Guiana. As if that's part of Europe.


No, it's not. Brittany isn't a different nation, Bretons aren't a different people, it doesn't have a different system, it doesn't have a different parliament or laws, it doesn't have a different religion or a different culture (a bit on the edges, but that's it), half of it used to have a different language but that's gone. It's as much part of France as Paris or Perpignan. If you can't grasp that, well fuck you.

You're in denial. I'm not even saying that Brittany should be independent, I'm saying you think we're more different than you are, when we aren't. The fact that you're far more centralised than we are doesn't make the Bretons (of whom 225,000 speak Breton - https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDQQFjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ethnologue.com%2Flanguage%2F bre&ei=qMqXUrpTlKqEB8WmgZAD&usg=AFQjCNEA7KV72N7vA98Vh6axBKnXwauqEg&sig2=afXZmxDVi6iTEE2RAo8fEQ -, there are even Breton-language schools. Brittany and Scotland have the same population (Scotland has 500,000 more people, actually) yet there are 4 speakers of Breton for every 1 of Scots Gaelic) any more French than the Scots are British.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/78972/Breton-language
https://www.ethnologue.com/language/cos

[LightHouse89]

America is not headed into the Shitter its already entered the shitter. Infact its on its way to the septic tank. I believe this has to do with culture. Counter culture of the 1960s led to the perverse state America is in. If you look up the current heads of state and see what they did in their younger years you would see why our society is the way it is today. I can remember the culture of the early ninties was very negrified and its continuing if not getting worse.

The problem is...is it reverseable or the end of our country? I think its the end because I am not an optimist. Europeans generally have a negative view of us and in all essence I think it would b wise for s to withdraw our military support there. What are we protecting? We should be putting troops on the border stopping illegal immigration, drug cartels, terrorists, and even putting moe resources to apprehending our enemies world wide. Its funny hw we sell parts of our navy to allow the Chinese to have a bigger naval presence in the world yet protect ry babies in Europe and elsewhere who protest against us? I mean it seems irrational to me to bother with nations that condemn us when we are attacked but shit on us left and right when we have troops guarding their nation's interest. We shouldn't. Let the wolves of stalin eat them and we will continue ookin out for ourselves. After all we are 'Americans'. In a way all we have in common with Europe is our Aryan or Indo European roots. Outside of that we are really just ourselves.

I read all of this 'Oh w should all move back to Europe' Varg Vikernes stuff and I have to laugh because my ancestors built this land and were kicked out of Europe long ago for various reasons. To hell with what Europe does or if it becomes a new african colony. Like they would help us if our people ere being shot or starving to death. They would make jokes about it I bet. Its funny when we turn on the news and see some English whore mocking people who were bombed in sponser event recently for halloween. Shows how much dirt bag sluts over there have for us, not to mention the wonderful compassion they have for the world. We should make jokes about how European men over there wear capris. I mean this must make them superior to the average white American male hahahahahah. Give me a break they give me a good laugh with their liberal foolishness. I think running from America is the worst thing we can do. Also kissing up to liberal fractionated Europeans is the last thing that we should bother with. Its best to fix the mess that the counter culture from England created here and revamp our society back to the best period of its history, the 1950s.

[Rudel]

We're whiter than you
We're whiter than you, simply because we're French and you're bloody English. Even if we where 150% SSA, we'd still be whiter than any fucking English barbarians.


No.
Yes. And data of Ethnologue is usually unreliable. And 28k speakers means that it's dead for all intents and purposes. Even is there were 100k speakers alive, there would still be none during the next generation.


There are 230,000 speaker.
There certainly aren't 230k natural speakers of Corsican (maybe that much "extended" speakers), and the rate of transmission is extremely low. Extinguished in one or two generations.


New Caledonia is the only one of your possessions where this is true, though.
Nope.


You're in denial.
I'm not, and I actually know Brittany a bit.


The fact that you're far more centralised than we are doesn't make the Bretons [...] any more French than the Scots are British.
The Bretons aren't like the Scots to you because THEY ARE FULLY FRENCH YOU BLOODY FUCKWIT.

(The numbers for Breton are a bit inflated too, the number of fluent native speakers is way bellow that, and the schools in Breton are a joke. The language taught there is Breton in name only)

[Szegedist]

There are already too many ridiculous states in Europe.
In my opinion, the most important criteria is historic.

We should get rid of states that are only 0-2 centuries old.

[Peyrol]

We're whiter than you, simply because we're French and you're bloody English. Even if we where 150% SSA, we'd still be whiter than any fucking English barbarians.


Yes. And data of Ethnologue is usually unreliable. And 28k speakers means that it's dead for all intents and purposes. Even is there were 100k speakers alive, there would still be none during the next generation.


There certainly aren't 230k natural speakers of Corsican (maybe that much "extended" speakers), and the rate of transmission is extremely low. Extinguished in one or two generations.


Nope.


I'm not, and I actually know Brittany a bit.


The Bretons aren't like the Scots to you because THEY ARE FULLY FRENCH YOU BLOODY FUCKWIT.

(The numbers for Breton are a bit inflated too, the number of fluent native speakers is way bellow that, and the schools in Breton are a joke. The language taught there is Breton in name only)


Being very optimistic, if there are 70,000 corsican speakers in 2013, ti would be a miracle.

[Peyrol]

There are already too many ridiculous states in Europe.
In my opinion, the most important criteria is historic.

We should get rid of states that are only 0-2 centuries old.

Germany and Italy?

[Albion]

Scotland should be annexed to Ireland. England and Wales should be 'Britain'. [hahahaha].

Northern Ireland join Scotland more like. The Irish and Ulster Scots (Scottish Protestants in Northern Ireland, AKA the majority of the Unionists) can't even get along, there's no way Ireland and Scotland could despite being very similar countries.

[Albion]

Well I think Ireland should be free but should work with Britain and not build some Iron wall but then again I am anti Republicanism because of its association with Communism. I have never agreed with Commie Irishmen nationalists. My families Irish heritage is pretty significant, although we have some German and French but not that much. I just dislike Northern Irish jerk offs that think little Ulster is so significant and that a minority of people get to have so much power. It would be far more rational to have just one Ireland. I do not know if Unionists feel threatened if they were under an Irish free state, to me it would be good for them and in a ay they could have duel citizenship and vote in two countries to sweeten such a deal. I do not view myself as a plastic paddy necessarily. For some reason that little island has always had an influence on me....maybe my upbringing. My dad is descended from Northern Irish colonists. A shame separatism has never taken shape where I live because I would be all for it. Maybe annex New York for agricultural reasons? It has its uses and also military bases. This would never happen even though at one time Vermont was its own country and republic.

The Unionists feel under siege. Imagine that the US was majority black and the minority of whites broke a state away to form a white nation, but then you had random people the world over with no connection to the place trying to force your white country to join the black one. You have black terrorists detonating bombs and harming your people and trying to force you from your neighbourhoods and only scant support from your allies to keep the peace.
No change 'black' to 'Republican', 'white' to 'Unionist' and allies to 'British government'.

[Graham]

Northern Ireland join Scotland more like. The Irish and Ulster Scots (Scottish Protestants in Northern Ireland, AKA the majority of the Unionists) can't even get along, there's no way Ireland and Scotland could despite being very similar countries.

Catholic Northern Irish(Ulster) are closely related to Scots also. But feck that shit! haha.

[Windischer]

Germany and Italy?

and hungary (didnt exist as a sovereign state 2 centuries ago) :laugh:

whats the point in secessions inside eu if those states will be more and more integrated into eu (federalized) soon, anyway?
although, on the other hand... many regions should have administrative and economic powers equal to federal states.

[Szegedist]

and hungary (didnt exist as a sovereign state 2 centuries ago) :laugh:


Just because we had a Habsburg Ruler, does not mean Hungary didn't exist. Habsburgs were Emperors of Austria and Kings of Hungary.

The Kingdom of Hungary was only formally part of Empire of Austria.[5] It was regnum independens, a separate Monarchy as Article X of 1790 stipulated.[5] According to the Constitutional law and public law, the Empire of Austria has never lawfully included the Kingdom of Hungary.[6] After the cessation of the Holy Roman Empire (Kingdom of Hungary was not part of it) the new title of the Habsburg rulers (Emperor of Austria) did not in any sense affect the laws and the constitution of Hungary according to the Hungarian Diet and the proclamation of Francis I in a rescript,[7] thus the country was part of the other Lands of the empire largely through the common monarch.[5]

The administration and government of the Kingdom of Hungary were not united with the common administrational and governmental structure of the Austrian Empire. The central governmental structures remained well separated from the imperial government, and they were linked largerly by the person of the common monarch. The country was governed by the Council of Liutenancy of Hungary (the Gubernium) - located in Pressburg and later in Pest - and by the Hungarian Royal Court Chancellery in Vienna.[8]

The Empire of Austria and Kingdom of Hungary have always maintained separate parliaments. (See: Imperial Council (Austria) and Diet of Hungary.) Legally, except for the Pragmatic Sanction of 1713, common laws have never existed in the Empire of Austria and the Kingdom of Hungary.

The division was so marked between Austria and Hungary that there was no common citizenship: a person was either an Austrian or a Hungarian citizen, and no one was allowed to hold dual citizenship.[9][10] The difference in citizenship also meant that there were always separate Austrian and Hungarian passports, never a common one.[11][12]

From 1527 (the creation of the monarchic personal union) to 1851 the Kingdom of Hungary maintained its own customs borders which separated her from the other parts of the Habsburg-ruled territories

[Peyrol]

and hungary (didnt exist as a sovereign state 2 centuries ago) :laugh:

whats the point in secessions inside eu if those states will be more and more integrated into eu (federalized) soon, anyway?
although, on the other hand... many regions should have administrative and economic powers equal to federal states.

But magyars as volk existed since 1000 A.D., germans and italians not.

[Windischer]

Just because we had a Habsburg Ruler, does not mean Hungary didn't exist. Habsburgs were Emperors of Austria and Kings of Hungary.
some emperors didnt feel the urge to be crowned as kings of hungary.
next time you copypaste from wiki, think before doing it:


The Kingdom of Hungary was only formally part of Empire of Austria.

State is formal category. we can speak about hungary as a state during the real union period of austria-hungary.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_union

[Windischer]

But magyars as volk existed since 1000 A.D., germans and italians not.

people are not a state.

[Arend]

But magyars as volk existed since 1000 A.D., germans and italians not.Just because you think that your country is “fake” doesn’t me that our country is fake too.

[Szegedist]

next time you copypaste from wiki, think before doing it:


Next time you troll and write nonsense, think before doing it
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?101374-Do-you-support-non-independent-states-in-the-Europe&p=2144459&viewfull=1#post2144459


Principality of Hungary was founded in 895
Kingdom of Hungary was founded as a European Kingdom recognized by the Papacy in 1000.

What more is there to discuss?

[Szegedist]

people are not a state.

Yes they are.

[Szegedist]

people are not a state.

The State IS the Nation.

One Crown, One State, One Nation.

[Kiyant]

Just because you think that your country is “fake” doesn’t me that our country is fake too.

You and i both know that Bayern and Preußen hated each other (i dont say Germany is a fake country though)

[Windischer]

quoting szegedist
no.
state is the political, administrative and legal organization of society under government.
nation (in its modern meanings) is a political and social construct.
in english, terms nation, state and country are often used synonymously, in which case nation means political, administrative and legal organization of society under government as well.
the concept of nation in its modern meanings is sometimes considered obsolete.

[Szegedist]

no.
state is the political, administrative and legal organization of society under government.
nation (in its modern meanings) is a political and social construct.
in english, terms nation, state and country are often used synonymously, in which case nation means political, administrative and legal organization of society under government as well.
the concept of nation in its modern meanings is sometimes considered obsolete.

For Hungarians state and nation means the same thing.
Its for example what the Hungarian saying "A krumpli nem étel, a tót nem ember." (Potato isnt food, slovaks aren't people). Its because they didnt have state, therefore they arent a nation or a people of their own, but inhabitants of the northern part Kingdom, speaking Slavic Northern Hungarian dialect (aka slovak).


However, this only really applies to the Carpathian Basin. Other countries have differnt views of their own nations.

[Arend]

You and i both know that Bayern and Preußen hated each other (i dont say Germany is a fake country though)So? What exactly has the one thing to do with the other? “Prussians”, or better the Prussian State where also here not really popular; Prussians fought against Saxons, Saxons against Bavarians, Hanover against Prussians against Austrians and so on. That was during the time of the “Kleinstaaterei” and every single little ruler and state and no interest in giving up any power.

Very intelligent comment by the way. Jeeezzzz

[Windischer]

For Hungarians state and nation means the same thing.

am talking about internationally accepted terminology of staatswissenschaft, not ideological constructs of some nationalistic lunatics.
which was shaped by people, events and phenomena such as the roman law, niccolo machiavelli, hugo grotius, treaty of westphalia, enlightenment, social contract, georg jellinek.
19th century hungarian state propaganda isnt among them.

[Illancha]

One Crown, One State, One Nation.
No Crown, No State, One Nation is the way I like things.

[Szegedist]

No Crown, no State, one Nation is the way I like things.

Sure, this might work for Chechens, do what suits you.

It's ridiculous how people think they can take one definition, then take it and apply it to a different part of the world and expect it to have the same results. (this comment isnt aimed at you Noxcho).

And an even more ridiculous "international definition".

[Albion]

America is not headed into the Shitter its already entered the shitter. Infact its on its way to the septic tank. I believe this has to do with culture. Counter culture of the 1960s led to the perverse state America is in. If you look up the current heads of state and see what they did in their younger years you would see why our society is the way it is today. I can remember the culture of the early ninties was very negrified and its continuing if not getting worse.

The problem is...is it reverseable or the end of our country? I think its the end because I am not an optimist. Europeans generally have a negative view of us and in all essence I think it would b wise for s to withdraw our military support there. What are we protecting? We should be putting troops on the border stopping illegal immigration, drug cartels, terrorists, and even putting moe resources to apprehending our enemies world wide. Its funny hw we sell parts of our navy to allow the Chinese to have a bigger naval presence in the world yet protect ry babies in Europe and elsewhere who protest against us? I mean it seems irrational to me to bother with nations that condemn us when we are attacked but shit on us left and right when we have troops guarding their nation's interest. We shouldn't. Let the wolves of stalin eat them and we will continue ookin out for ourselves. After all we are 'Americans'. In a way all we have in common with Europe is our Aryan or Indo European roots. Outside of that we are really just ourselves.

I read all of this 'Oh w should all move back to Europe' Varg Vikernes stuff and I have to laugh because my ancestors built this land and were kicked out of Europe long ago for various reasons. To hell with what Europe does or if it becomes a new african colony. Like they would help us if our people ere being shot or starving to death. They would make jokes about it I bet. Its funny when we turn on the news and see some English whore mocking people who were bombed in sponser event recently for halloween. Shows how much dirt bag sluts over there have for us, not to mention the wonderful compassion they have for the world. We should make jokes about how European men over there wear capris. I mean this must make them superior to the average white American male hahahahahah. Give me a break they give me a good laugh with their liberal foolishness. I think running from America is the worst thing we can do. Also kissing up to liberal fractionated Europeans is the last thing that we should bother with. Its best to fix the mess that the counter culture from England created here and revamp our society back to the best period of its history, the 1950s.

Dude, you were banging on about emigrating to Europe a few weeks ago. :D If you constantly whinge about other countries on the internet, expect people from those countries to whinge about yours. The shit between Americans and Euros is caused by all these petty arguments.


For Hungarians state and nation means the same thing.
Its for example what the Hungarian saying "A krumpli nem étel, a tót nem ember." (Potato isnt food, slovaks aren't people). Its because they didnt have state, therefore they arent a nation or a people of their own, but inhabitants of the northern part Kingdom, speaking Slavic Northern Hungarian dialect (aka slovak).


However, this only really applies to the Carpathian Basin. Other countries have differnt views of their own nations.

That's weird. Why do Hungarians say Potatoes aren't food?

[Illancha]

It's ridiculous how people think they can take one definition, then take it and apply it to a different part of the world and expect it to have the same results. (this comment isnt aimed at you Noxcho).

And an even more ridiculous "international definition".
I agree with both statements. There's no such thing as a universal measure.

[blogen]

no.
state is the political, administrative and legal organization of society under government.
nation (in its modern meanings) is a political and social construct.
in english, terms nation, state and country are often used synonymously, in which case nation means political, administrative and legal organization of society under government as well.
the concept of nation in its modern meanings is sometimes considered obsolete.

Yes, the state is an administrative and legal organization. The nation is the official community of the citizens and the folk is a self-awareness, the tribe is the clans' totality and the clan is the relatives' and clients' group.

These were the developmental sections of the Hungarian nation concept based on the historical sources:

before the 10-11th century: tribal based gens Hungarorum
Magyar = the descendants of the conquerors
written evidence: the "Greater Legend" of St Stephen from the 11th century
relation to the Central European nation development: divergent

between the 11-13th century: blood based feudal gens Hungarorum
Magyar = the descendants of the conquerors+the members of the free castes
written evidence: Gesta Hungarorum by Anonymus
the reason of the change: the feudal state organization
relation to the Central European nation development: paralell

between the 13-15th century: blood based ethnic gens Hungarorum
Magyar = the Magyar speakers and their descendants at this time
written evidence: Gesta Hunnorum et Hungarorum by Kézai Simon and contemporary racial laws for example definitons of the Hungarian and the German citizens in city of Buda
the reason of the change: the racial view becomes dominant onto a German cultural effect
relation to the Central European nation development: paralell

between the 15-18th century: feudal based gens Hungarorum
Magyar = the free peoples, "noblesse nation"
written evidence: the legal documents and the common talk at this time
the reason of the change: the Turkish wars made the combatant population more valuable.
relation to the Central European nation development: divergent (the premodern a nation concept does not take shape in Hungary on the time of the Turkish wars)

18th century: the Hungarian nation and the Hungarian folk's concept started merging with the premodern gens Hungarorum
Magyar = the oblesse nation + the Magyar speakers
the reason of the change: after the Turkish wars the country fit into the European developmental order
relation to the Central European nation development: paralell

between the 19-20th century: the modern ethnic based Hungarian nation
Magyar = the Magyar speakers
relation to the Central European nation development: paralell

from the 21th century: the postmodern identity based Hungarian nation
Magyar = the peoples with Magyar identity
relation to the Central European nation development: paralell

So the Hungarian folk and a nation's concept existed in the very early Middle Ages.

[Szegedist]

...
Read my post to Noxcho.


19th century hungarian state propaganda isnt among them.
It should, there were a lot of wise people.

[Szegedist]

That's weird. Why do Hungarians say Potatoes aren't food?
That part of the proverb is a attack at poor people.

[blogen]

For Hungarians state and nation means the same thing.

No. The Hungarian state is not equal with the Hungarian nation. For example between the 11th and the 19th century Transsylvania, or before 1588 Slavonia was part of the Hungarian kingdom, but there were paralell Slavonian, Transsylvanian and Hungarian nations without ethnic content, since the principalties (banates) are countries in the feudal law. And at this time the concept of the gens Hungarorum is exist, without official content. A free Hungarian were part of the Gens Hungarorum in Slavonia, but he was part of the Slavonian nation.

[Windischer]

No Crown, No State, One Nation is the way I like things.

i prefer no crown, a little bit of state and no nation


The nation is the official community of the citizens
no, thats citizenry. tell me, why should we use an ambiguous term with multiple meanings instead of a term with a single, clear, always strictly neutral meaning?

evolution of concept of nation in hungary or elsewhere isnt much relevant to this debate.

[blogen]

i prefer no crown, a little bit of state and no nation
no, thats citizenry. tell me, why should we use an ambiguous term with multiple meanings instead of a term with a single, clear, always strictly neutral meaning?
evolution of concept of nation in hungary or elsewhere isnt much relevant to this debate.

But this is the nation's meaning. For example the German nation is the citizens of Germany and not the citizens of Austria of Switzerland. But there are Germans is Austria, the majority of the Austrian citizens are ethnic Germans (part of the German folk). It is not complicated.

[Szegedist]

But this is the nation's meaning. For example the German nation is the citizens of Germany and not the citizens of Austria of Switzerland. But there are Germans is Austria, the majority of the Austrian citizens are ethnic Germans (part of the German folk). It is not complicated.

He is Slovjak, Rusnak or whatever, a people who never had a state of their own, therefore his views are different, and he cant comprehend our views.

[Rudel]

Just because you think that your country is “fake” doesn’t me that our country is fake too.
Well, in 1000 AD in Germany (or what was to become Germany as we think of it now), ethnic and national identities were still split along the tribal lines of Franks, Saxon, Bavarians and whatnot, as they had been during the Carolingian times.
The progressive separation of the East from Frankish politics (and the ethnico-politic separation between the Romance Franks, us, and the Germanic Franks, for example Franconians), starting with Henry I and his son Otto, eventually tended to create a pan-Germanic sense of belonging later on but it took a long time and it isn't linear.

[Windischer]

But this is the nation's meaning. For example the German nation is the citizens of Germany and not the citizens of Austria of Switzerland. But there are Germans is Austria, the majority of the Austrian citizens are ethnic Germans (part of the German folk). It is not complicated.

its one of the meanings and that doesnt change its obsoleteness
the whole concept is, frankly said, useless - except for usage in demagogy and populism

[Arend]

Well, in 1000 AD in Germany (or what was to become Germany as we think of it now), ethnic and national identities were still split along the tribal lines of Franks, Saxon, Bavarians and whatnot, as they had been during the Carolingian times.
The progressive separation of the East from Frankish politics (and the ethnico-politic separation between the Romance Franks, us, and the Germanic Franks, for example Franconians), starting with Henry I and his son Otto, eventually tended to create a pan-Germanic sense of belonging later on but it took a long time and it isn't linear.“Tribal lines” started to dissolve with the Battles of Riade (933) and Lechfeld (955) and today "Germany" (the Bundesrepublik) is far less fragmented and internally diived than France is. What happned to "I am not going to reply to German users anymore by the way? :rolleyes:


starting with Henry I and his son Otto, eventually tended to create a pan-Germanic sense of belonging later on but it took a long time and it isn't linear.Ehhh nope.

[blogen]

its one of the meanings and that doesnt change its obsoleteness
the whole concept is, frankly said, useless - except for usage in demagogy and populism

This is the only meaning without demagogy. And obsolate?

[Rudel]

“Tribal lines” started to dissolve with the Battles of Riade (933) and Lechfeld (955)
I evoked the Saxonian dynasty for a reason.


and today "Germany" (the Bundesrepublik) is far less fragmented and internally diived than France is.
Far less fragmented and internally divided ? You have full blown states within Germany, dialect speakers everywhere, half of your country was another state for decades and you still have gigantic regional disparities.
We're much more united than Germany is and has ever been, it's not even up to discussion.


What happned to "I am not going to reply to German users anymore by the way? :rolleyes:
I'm weak.


Ehhh nope.
By "pan-Germanic", I meant "throughout the Germanic population of what modern historians would call the Kingdom of Germany".

[Arend]

I evoked the Saxonian dynasty for a reason.Nice for you. Doesn’t really change the facts though.

You have full blown states within GermanyWe have "Bundesländer", and a somewhat decentralized form of goverment and governance has a long tradition here.

dialect speakers everywhereActually only a vanishingly low number of people actually speak a dialect; and those who do mostly do it in private with their friends and family.

half of your country was another state for decadesI don’t really think that you really understand what “State” means if you really want to compare the GDR to Hesse or Bavaria

have gigantic regional disparities.Do you have any idea how big the regional disparities in France actually are? (The obvious answer here is no)

We're much more united than Germany is and has ever beenThat is how you would like it to be. The fact remains, that Germany has far less internal conflicts than France has, and that regional identities are far more important in France than in Germany.

I'm weak.I would call it French steadfastness

[Rudel]

Nice for you. Doesn’t really change the facts though.
Why the fuck are you talking like you're arguing with me when we've been saying the exact same thing since the beginning ?


We have "Bundesländer", and a somewhat decentralized form of goverment and governance has a long tradition here.
Never said the opposite.


Actually only a vanishingly low number of people actually speak a dialect; and those who do mostly do it in private with their friends and family.
And that's still more than we have.


I don’t really think that you really understand what “State” means if you really want to compare the GDR to Hesse or Bavaria
I wasn't going to call the GDR a nation.


Do you have any idea how big the regional disparities in France actually are? (The obvious answer here is no)
Yes, I have.

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/images/3/3b/Gross_domestic_product_%28GDP%29_per_inhabitant%2C _in_purchasing_power_standard_%28PPS%29%2C_by_NUTS _2_regions%2C_2010_%281%29_%28%25_of_the_EU-27_average%2C_EU-27_%3D_100%29.png

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/images/7/7c/Gross_domestic_product_%28GDP%29_per_inhabitant%2C _in_purchasing_power_standard_%28PPS%29%2C_by_NUTS _3_regions%2C_2010_%281%29_%28%25_of_the_EU-27_average%2C_EU-27_%3D_100%29.png

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/reg_glance-2011-en/images/graphics/6-5_europe.gif

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/images/7/73/Population_change%2C_by_NUTS_3_regions%2C_2011_%28 1%29_%28per_thousand_inhabitants%29.png

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/images/c/c4/Net_migration_%28including_statistical_adjustment% 29%2C_by_NUTS_3_regions%2C_2011_%281%29_%28per_tho usand_inhabitants%29.png


That is how you would like it to be.
No, this is how it is.


and that regional identities are far more important in France than in Germany.
:lol00002:

[Ouistreham]

We're much more united than Germany is and has ever been
Yes and no. Both countries have a strong identity, and both were built following implicit geopolitical concepts that made much sense (from the Maas river to the Pyrenees for France, from the North Sea to the Alps as for Germany).


Do you have any idea how big the regional disparities in France actually are?
Not any bigger than in Germany.

The only significant difference is that after WW2 all parts of Western Germany had to accomodate millions of refugees from former German provinces East of the Oder-Neiße line (nothing to rejoice about), which had a strong homogenizing effect (local dialects began do die out). Furthermore, the once all-important divide between Catholic and Lutheran districts gradually became largely irrelevant in the past decades.

[Arend]

Why the fuck are you talking like you're arguing with me when we've been saying the exact same thing since the beginning ? You see to be quite short-tempered and aggressive, is that the long term effect of too much antifreeze in wine?

And that's still more than we have. I highly doubt it. But whatever happens you will try to portrait la France as a monolithic unity either way.

I wasn't going to call the GDR a nation.

You have full blown states within Germany

half of your country was another stateYou called the GDR a state, and you also said that we have “full blown states”.

Yes, I have. = economic regional disparities (And we can actually see that Paris = good, rest of the country shit. Hooray for centralized government). Culturally, mentally, linguistically ect. There is no way that France is more homogenous than the BRD.

Yes and no. Both countries have a strong identity, and both were built following implicit geopolitical concepts that made much sense (from the Maas river to the Pyrenees for France, from the North Sea to the Alps as for Germany). We had them, and I don’t think that is actually good thing. I see it as rather catastrophic.

Not any bigger than in Germany. Tell that Rudel :lol:
But honestly, I still don’t actually think that the difference between a Breton and a Corsican is actually the same as the difference between a Bavarian and a Holsteins

[Rudel]

You see to be quite short-tempered and aggressive, is that the long term effect of too much antifreeze in wine?
You keep insulting the French and me over and over again. Don't accept I'll stay calm and endure you trying to shit in my throat.


But whatever happens you will try to portrait la France as a monolithic unity either way.
No, I won't. You only have that impression because you're virtually trying to balkanize France. You're forcing to take a "side" than isn't forcibly mine.


You called the GDR a state, and you also said that we have “full blown states”.
I didn't mean it in the same. Blame the English language for lacking terms, not me.


And we can actually see that Paris = good, rest of the country shit. Hooray for centralized government
No. Paris = very rich, rest of the country is OK. Excluding the capital, regions are much more homogeneous economically here than in Germany. And yes, long live centralization.


Culturally, mentally, linguistically ect. There is no way that France is more homogenous than the BRD.
Yes, there's way.

[Arend]

You keep insulting the French and me over and over again. Don't accept I'll stay calm and endure you trying to shit in my throat.The French? Not really. I just do it because I know that it upsets you. But please remember that you first started to insult Germans and Germany (and in fact in way more malicious manner than I ever insulted la France), so you shouldn’t really whine now. Show a little bit more respect towards others, and they will treat you with the same respect. Otherwise you will just reap what you sow.

No, I won't. You only have that impression because you're virtually trying to balkanize France. You're forcing to take a "side" than isn't forcibly mine.
Yes, you will. Someone starts speaking about the Corsicans? They are French. The Bretons? 100% French like everybody else in the counntry, Alsatian? French.

I didn't mean it in the same. Blame the English language for lacking terms, not me.Then try to rephrase next time if you have problems with the English language.

No. Paris = very rich, rest of the country is OK. Excluding the capital, regions are much more homogeneous economically here than in Germany. And yes, long live centralization.Yep, they are equally poor since Paris sucks all the wealth out of the rest of the country.

[Rudel]

the Corsicans? They are French. The Bretons? 100% French like everybody else in the counntry, Alsatian? French.
You finally got it ! It took time, but I'm glad you're finally there.


Yep, they are equally poor since Paris sucks all the wealth out of the rest of the country.

Paris :
http://soundlandscapes.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/023.jpg

http://www.vos-photos.eu/photo_16705_9.jpg

http://www.jeanmiaille.fr/2012/images/04_2012/120410150135_Touristes_Paris.jpg

The third-world province, killed by the capital city and the big bad centralization :
http://www.adwe.fr/IMG/jpg/Vue_place_Stanislas_c_Ville_de_Nancy.jpg

http://www.urban-premium.com/v2/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Rennes.jpg

http://sensometrics2012.agrocampus-ouest.fr/infoglueDeliverLive/digitalAssets/21177_rennes-centre.jpg

http://maurtimer.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/collonges-la-rouge2a.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_fnMP-oc8eE8/TOlBmBenhUI/AAAAAAAAABQ/VoddDpTzVl4/s1600/01.+Lunch+in+Aix+en+Provence.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f9/Marche-Richelme-Aix.jpg

Nobody in his right mind would think that the quality of life is better in Paris than in any middle-sized city of the country.

[Arend]

You finally got it ! It took time, but I'm glad you're finally there.Yeah sure, and they are all the same, while Bavarians, Swabians, Hessians, Saxons and Mecklenburger are completly different and even live in their own "full-blown" states? YGBSM.

Nobody in his right mind would think that the quality of life is better in Paris than in any middle-sized city of the country.And I thought that >Paris strong? Make up your mind

[Rudel]

Yeah sure, and they are all the same, while Bavarians, Swabians, Hessians, Saxons and Mecklenburger are completly different and even live in their own "full-blown" states? YGBSM.
They're not all the same, that's retarded. But they're differences are far less acute than you'd like to think.
All your populations are institutionally segregated, and that's still a huge stretch from what it used to be. The German history is that of dividing what should be united, the French history is the opposite.


And I thought that >Paris strong? Make up your mind
Paris and the Parisian region is stronk economically, but it's a terrible place to live. I don't see what the incoherence is.

[blogen]

Paris :
http://soundlandscapes.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/023.jpg

"This is the idea that Civilization finds prevailing when it comes on the scene, and this is what it destroys by its notion of the Fourth Estate, the Mass, which rejects the Culture and its matured forms, lock, stock, and barrel. It is the absolute of formlessness, persecuting with its hate every sort of form, every distinction of rank, the orderliness of property, the orderliness of knowledge. It is the new nomadism of the Cosmopolis,l for which slaves and barbarians in the Classical world, Sudras in the Indian, and in general anything and everything that is merely human, provide an undifferentiated floating something that falls apart the moment it is born, that recognizes no past and possesses no future. Thus the Fourth Estate becomes the expression of the passing of a history over into the historyless. The mass is the end, the radical nullity."
Oswald Spengler: The Decline of the West.

[Arend]

They're not all the same, that's retarded.That is what you try to present them.

But they're differences are far less acute than you'd like to think.The differences are far bigger than you like to admit.

All your populations are institutionally segregated, and that's still a huge stretch from what it used to be. No there are not, but you dont really seem to know a lot about Germany anyway, so...

Paris and the Parisian region is stronk economically, but it's a terrible place to live. I don't see what the incoherence is.Higher purchasing power = (theoretically) higher standard of living. I dont really know why you posted that map in the first place, since it was absolutley nothing to do with the actual discussion

[Rudel]

The differences are far bigger than you like to admit.
I honestly get surprised quite often by how these differences are cosmetic and generally irrelevant.


No there are not, but you dont really seem to know a lot about Germany anyway, so...
I reckon modern German history isn't my forte (and it frankly doesn't interest me at all).


Higher purchasing power = (theoretically) higher standard of living.
A lot of things should be factored besides the purchasing power, and in the end if you have a job you'd live better in Brittany, Champagne, Provence or in the depths of Auvergne than in Paris.
People tend to move back to the countryside these days.


I dont really know why you posted that map in the first place, since it was absolutley nothing to do with the actual discussion
I was to show that Germany has more inter-regional imbalance than France.

[Arend]

I honestly get surprised quite often by how these differences are cosmetic and generally irrelevant.You will see them that way since you are a Nationalist (or better a Chauvinist); a Basque Nationalist for example would see it completely different.

I reckon modern German history isn't my forte (and it frankly doesn't interest me at all).Then you shouldn’t really talk about it if it is not your forte. I have no clue about the history of Turkmenistan, but I don’t try to lecture Turkmens about their own country and history.

A lot of things should be factored besides the purchasing power, and in the end if you have a job you'd live better in Brittany, Champagne, Provence of in the depths of Auvergne than in Paris.
People tend to move back to the countryside these days.Alas, the Île-de-France is the economically strongest region France, and it is where one can find the most and best jobs, so many people will have no choice but to move there if they want to work.

I was to show that Germany has more inter-regional imbalance than France.Economically maybe. And only due to 40 years of socialist rule in East Germany.