The “Aryan Invasion” Controversy (PDF of talk)

[Skomand]

The “Aryan Invasion” Controversy

PDF summary

Appropriating the Past
Language, Archaeology, and
Ideology in South Asia and the Diaspora
Hans Henrich Hock

http://www.uni-saarland.de/fileadmin/user_upload/Professoren/fr43_ProfGhoshSchellhorn/dateien_ghosh-schellhorn/Hock-Saarbr%C3%BCckenTalk.pdf

[Vesuvian Sky]

Interesting article. A key component:


On 8 March 2006, the full Board agreed with the February 27 decision,
voting (9 to zero, 2 abstentions) to reaffirm only the changes approved
on February 27, and to overturn the rest of the changes suggested by the
HEF and VF, with two exceptions: the Aryan Migration Theory
would be mentioned as disputed by scholars, and the Vedas would
be referred to as sacred texts, rather than songs or poems. Most
parties expressed qualified satisfaction with the decision; however, the
Hindu American Foundation (HAF), that had not participated in the
revisions, threatened the board with a lawsuit[13][14][15].[16].
Ruth Green, past president of the SBE, said that the ruling "represents
our best efforts. Many ideological fault lines have played out here. These
beliefs are deeply held."[17].

Another significant text highlighting both sides of the debate:

http://www.jies.org/docs/jies_index/Vol29.html

http://www.jies.org/docs/jies_index/Vol30.html

[Proto-Shaman]

Anatole Klyosov also came to the conclusion that the R1a basehaplotype 13 25 15 10 12 12 10 13 11 31 -- 15 14 20 12 16 11 23 (with a common ancestor of 3400+/-505 ybp, the likely times for the Aryans coming to India) is reasonably close to the Bashkir Turkic and Kyrgyz Turkic base haplotypes (both R1a-L342.2). A common ancestor of all the reported Indian (Tamil) haplotypes and Bashkir and Kyrgyz haplotypes lived around 5000 ybp, which fits the timespan to R1a-L342.2 common ancestor.

source: GENEALOGY-DNA-L Archives (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/GENEALOGY-DNA/2012-12/1356088114)

[Anglojew]

Indo-Europeans were white.

Indo-Europeans invaded the subcontinent

Indo-Europeans imposed a racially based caste system

Indians/Pakistanis graduate pigmentation with the lightest features found the closer to the direction of the Indo-European linguistic invasion (North-west)

What is the debate about?

[Vesuvian Sky]

Indo-Europeans were white.

Indo-Europeans invaded the subcontinent

Indo-Europeans imposed a racially based caste system

Indians/Pakistanis graduate pigmentation with the lightest features found the closer to the direction of the Indo-European linguistic invasion (North-west)

What is the debate about?

Naturally, this has been going on for years now, and will likely only continue but DNA has leant support to the invasion theory. Even upper castes have a 10-14% N. Euro component in addition to high amounts of M-17. There's some sort of PC component to this it seems though but some people latch onto the Indigenous theory blindly and even ignore the parallels that Kuzmina brings up based on physical anthropological anaylsis of Gandara grave culture skeletal remains to Central Asian Andronovo Horizon remains:


The Gandhara grave culture people shared biological affinities with the population of Neolithic Mehrgarh, which suggests a "biological continuum" between the ancient populations of Timargarha and Mehrgarh. This is however not the opinion of Elena E. Kuz'mina, who notes remains similar to some from Central Asian populations.

Asko Parpola (1993: 54), argues that the Gandhara grave culture is "by no means identical with the Bronze Age Culture of Bactria and Margiana". Tulsa (1977: 690-692) argues that this culture and its "new contributions" are "nevertheless in line with the cultural traditions of the previous period", and remarks that "to attribute a historical value to ... the slender links with northwestern Iran and northern Afghanistan ... is a mistake", since "it could well be the spread of particular objects and, as such, objects that could circulate more easily quite apart from any real contacts." Antonini (1973), Stacul and other scholars argue that this culture is not related with the Beshkent culture of Kyrgyzstan and Vakhsh culture of Tajikistan (Bryant 2001). However, E. Kuz'mina, in her book "The origin of the Indo-Iranians, volume 3" (2007) argues the opposite on the basis of both archeology and the human remains from the sepultures.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

What is the debate about?

Every country wants to believe they originate in thier home town and have been there 10k years. However for india it's clearly not a center of an expansion but at the joining of several of them.

It's similar to how the greeks are. But I will give credit, I think the modern dates here are all wrong. It's more like 5-7k years ago that they moved in, probably the remnants of the collapse of the IVC.

[Anglojew]

Buddha was described in contemporary accounts as blue-eyed so we know that the caste system did keep (at least the upper classes) racially pure for a few thousand years.

[Krystal Meth]

The "Aryan Invasion theory" is only disputed by Hindutva idiots and other kooks who think ancient India possessed nuclear weapons and other crazy stuff.

[Proto-Shaman]

The "Aryan Invasion theory" is only disputed by Hindutva idiots and other kooks who think ancient India possessed nuclear weapons and other crazy stuff.
says Mr. Krystal Meth? :rolleyes:

[Rambo07]

Indo-Europeans were white.

Indo-Europeans invaded the subcontinent

Indo-Europeans imposed a racially based caste system

Indians/Pakistanis graduate pigmentation with the lightest features found the closer to the direction of the Indo-European linguistic invasion (North-west)

What is the debate about?


Actually AngloJew, the genetic contributions of the Indo Iranians was minimal overall save for the North west part of the subcontinent, which I also found odd initially. Most of the R1a haplotypes in the subcontinent stem not from Indo European invasions but migrations of people at the end of the Pleistocene ( 12 000- 13 000) years ago, part of them settled in the Caucusus and that component is found in Georgians, the rest entered through Baluchistan/Southern Afghanistan. The proof of this is that , R1a also occurs at very high rates among isolated South Indian tribals like the Chenchus , Todas. Also the caste system did not actually develop strictly until about Jesus's time (2000 years ago) , prior to that there was heavy mixing between ANI and ASI components.

http://www.boston.com/news/science/blogs/science-in-mind/2013/08/09/genetic-study-finds-caste-system-ancient-india-began-about-years-ago/hu52rKxbmjJn3XUMNHS2LK/blog.html

Many speculate R1a developed on the fringes of the subcontinent and they were constant back migrations back and forth.
Yes Indo Europeans/ Androvono people had a high North European component but that is largely absent even in upper castes in the subcontinent (which became enforced 2000 years later) .
They most probably resembled Pamirids, who also do have a significant North Euro component but on the same token they also have ASI admix.

Also its hard to construct how Central Asia looked then because most of the Caucasoid population was absorbed by Mongoloids or decimated during the blood bath which occured during large scale genocide of the Kwarzemid Empire by Mongol Hordes.

[Óttar]

There is no Aryan Invasion "controversy." :mad: The Aryas came from outside of India. All who say otherwise are idiots and / or akin to creationists.

[Proto-Shaman]

Discuss: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?106915-quot-Out-of-India-Theory-quot-and-quot-Aryan-Conquest-theory-quot-are-BOTH-wrong&p=2214363#post2214363