Would these two British MPs be considered average or darker-than-average in Southern Europe?

[Tooting Carmen]

Stephen Twigg
http://stephentwiggmp.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/stephen-twigg.jpg

John Redwood
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/02_02/JohnRedwoodDM_228x335.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Lighter than average for both. :lol:

[Tooting Carmen]

Lighter than average for both. :lol:

In Cyprus perhaps. I doubt in the rest of Southern Europe though, that's the point.

[Kastrioti1443]

Southern europe is a big place mate... here they would be average and everywhere in Balkan they would not be considered dark.

[Sikeliot]

In Cyprus perhaps. I doubt in the rest of Southern Europe though, that's the point.

They're about average for Spain, and lighter than average for southern Italy and Greece. I cannot think of a single place in southern Europe where they are darker than average.. neither is even dark!

[Tooting Carmen]

Southern europe is a big place mate... here they would be average and everywhere in Balkan they would not be considered dark.

In effect, are you saying that their decidedly olive colouring is typical of over 50% of Balkanites?

[YeshAtid]

One of them is partially Jewish however.

[Tooting Carmen]

One of them is partially Jewish however.

I've checked their biographies - they are not, although a good few other MPs are.

[iNird]

Light for sure. And if they were Albanian, Serbs would claim they are "Serbs in Denial"

:D

[YeshAtid]

I've checked their biographies - they are not, although a good few other MPs are.

I believe Twigg is partially.

[Tooting Carmen]

I believe Twigg is partially.

Source? Wikipedia is very thorough about these things, and does not mention it at all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Twigg

[Kastrioti1443]

In effect, are you saying that their decidedly olive colouring is typical of over 50% of Balkanites?

I do not base my classifications on 2 photos of very bad quality. Balkans is a med region and the places who border the sea in Balkan ( exluding Romania and mainland Croatia) are very hot.

[YeshAtid]

Source? Wikipedia is very thorough about these things, and does not mention it at all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Twigg
It's probably just a rumour, but Enfield where he was born used to be a very Jewish area.

[Tooting Carmen]

More photos of them:

Stephen Twigg
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/11/2/1320248285470/Stephen-Twigg-wants-high--007.jpg http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/7/10/1341918020309/Stephen-Twigg-008.jpg

John Redwood
http://blogs.independent.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/jr.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Yy1jfmjZGU0/T5P4-IT3eoI/AAAAAAAAFwU/7rudNrez0sM/s400/redwood320.jpg

[Tooting Carmen]

Any more suggestions? Btw, here are some threads I made of British MPs: http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?101249-UK-Government-Ministers&highlight=government+ministers http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?101593-UK-Official-Opposition&highlight=government+ministers

[Tooting Carmen]

Bump

[Tooting Carmen]

2nd bump

[HellLander87]

I would say a bit more darker than average but it depends with regions

[Tooting Carmen]

I would say a bit more darker than average but it depends with regions

In Greece's specific case, what'd you say?

[Kastrioti1443]

More photos of them:

Stephen Twigg
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/11/2/1320248285470/Stephen-Twigg-wants-high--007.jpg http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/7/10/1341918020309/Stephen-Twigg-008.jpg

John Redwood
http://blogs.independent.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/jr.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Yy1jfmjZGU0/T5P4-IT3eoI/AAAAAAAAFwU/7rudNrez0sM/s400/redwood320.jpg

In these 2 other photos they are darker, in the first one he looks like a gypsy.

[HellLander87]

In Greece's specific case, what'd you say?
For stephen twigg I would say more than average for john redwood average

[Tooting Carmen]

Anyone else?

[Tooting Carmen]

Another bump

[Sikeliot]

John Redwood is lighter than average for Sicily (and he looks distinctly northern Euro IMO) but Stephen Twigg might be about average leaning toward darker actually based on the new photos.

[Tooting Carmen]

Stephen Twigg looks different depending on the photo. Here's his Wikipedia photo:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Stephen_Twigg_MP.jpg

[Grace O'Malley]

Stephen Twigg
http://stephentwiggmp.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/stephen-twigg.jpg

John Redwood
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/02_02/JohnRedwoodDM_228x335.jpg

They both look British John Redwood especially so. They are both a little darker than average as far as Britain goes but they look British nevertheless. They don't look Spanish to me but it will be interesting to see what people say.

[Tooting Carmen]

A few more votes would be most welcome.:D

[mikeyup]

in portugal they are about average for pigmentation...

[Sikeliot]

This is a very British face to me, I fail to see how he is in any way dark.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/02_02/JohnRedwoodDM_228x335.jpg

[Smeagol]

The second guy isn't even dark.

[Tooting Carmen]

This is a very British face to me, I fail to see how he is in any way dark.

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/02_02/JohnRedwoodDM_228x335.jpg

In terms of facial traits, yes. But his skin tone is no more 'normal' for Britain than Xavi Hernandez and Alessandro Nesta's skin tones are for Spain and Italy respectively.

[Sikeliot]

He looks like he has a tan.

[Tooting Carmen]

He looks like he has a tan.

No, he's naturally like that. As it happens, I found some photos with him surrounded by other Brits. People can judge for themselves as to whether he looks 'typical' or not.
http://sterileflatantibacterialmedicalkeyboards.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/rainbow-service-directors-with-john-redwood-mp-of-wokingham.jpg http://www.flourish.org/blog/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/john_redwood_flooding.jpg http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01731/tory-36-50b_1731716c.jpg http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/69549000/jpg/_69549404_69549403.jpg http://www.dorsetecho.co.uk/resources/images/1921578.jpg?type=articleLandscape

Just to clarify, I am not negating at all the existence of dark Brits, but people with the pigmentation of the two MPs in question are no more than around 5% of the White British population.

[Sikeliot]

What he almost looks is Basque, in those photos.

[Gaita]

He seems to have an olive tone to his skin......

I'm southern European, from Spain. This is me not tan.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx24/Breogan2/ME/null_zps9b5ba3d8.jpg

[Tooting Carmen]

He seems to have an olive tone to his skin......

I'm southern European, from Spain. This is me not tan.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx24/Breogan2/ME/null_zps9b5ba3d8.jpg

Thanks for that. So, in your opinion, do the two MPs in the OP look average for Spain (or Southern Europe more generally) pigmentation-wise, or are they darker-than-average?

[Sikeliot]

I change my mind. He is about average for Spain, and pigmentation wise for Italy and Greece except his features more western than average for there.

[Gaita]

Thanks for that. So, in your opinion, do the two MPs in the OP look average for Spain (or Southern Europe more generally) pigmentation-wise, or are they darker-than-average?

I think they look average, and I don't think they look out of place in England, now in your opinion, would you say my pigmentation is average for southern Europe?

[Tooting Carmen]

I think they look average, and I don't think they look out of place in England, now in your opinion, would you say my pigmentation is average for southern Europe?

You do look average for Southern Europe. And to repeat, I am not saying the phenotypes of the two MPs in question are so out-of-the-ordinary for England, but it cannot be stressed enough that only a minority look like them. In fact, however much people in this forum may talk about the 'Atlantic Facade', at the end of the day what makes up a majority (or at least a plurality) of phenotypes in Iberia is only a minority phenomenon in the British Isles (and vice versa). This doesn't negate the fact that, yes, Brits are a bit darker and more Mediterranean-shifted than other Northern Europeans, and yes, Iberians do have more Northern/Western European input than do Greeks and many Italians. However, the differences in average appearance are still apparent.

[Dorian]

Of course they can easily pass in Southern Europe,but i just don't think they are the average.And basically i think it depends on the region.Southern Europe is a generalization i think.

[Tooting Carmen]

Of course they can easily pass in Southern Europe,but i just don't think they are the average.And basically i think it depends on the region.Southern Europe is a generalization i think.

Well alright, but for Greece then?

[Dorian]

Well alright, but for Greece then?

Again it's a generalization,but in many areas I think they can!:)

[Dorian]

Again it's a generalization,but in many areas I think they can!:)

But this is just my opinion,don't take it seriously!

[TheBlondeSalad]

I think the first one, Stephen Twigg, looks distinctively British (the nose area).
John Redwood would fit anywhere in Southern Europe but to be fair, staring at him, his facial features give me a British vibe.

[Tooting Carmen]

I think the first one, Stephen Twigg, looks distinctively British (the nose area).
John Redwood would fit anywhere in Southern Europe but to be fair, staring at him, his facial features give me a British vibe.

As I said, I am not saying that their facial traits are unusual for Britain, but it is their pigmentation that is. Thus, I wonder if in all or parts of Southern Europe such pigmentation is considered average or not.

[Bloodsport]

John Redwood doesn't look that dark to me to be honest.

But I think Stephen Twigg would be dark for Cyprus...

http://i4.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article274293.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/stephen-twigg-pic-getty-images-837855408-274293.jpg

[Tooting Carmen]

Anyone else?

[Ibericus]

Twigg would be average, and Redwood would be on the "olive" side.

[Anthropologique]

Average for France, Spain, Portugal and N. Italy. Not for Greece.

[alnortedelsur]

They would be average in Spain. They don't look particularly "swarthy" anyways. Most of their apparent "swarthiness" is due to their age.

Many white people, when they get older, they get a bit "swarthy" look, which is just an optical illusion that comes up as a result of their aging.

That's why I prefer thousand times to use young people, as examples, when I want to show Iberian people phenotype. Because young people give a more accurate picture of how an ethnic group looks like.

[Tooting Carmen]

That's why I prefer thousand times to use young people, as examples, when I want to show Iberian people phenotype. Because young people give a more accurate picture of how an ethnic group looks like.

It is funny you say that because I find that, if anything, Iberian sportsmen (who are generally younger) tend to be darker than Iberian politicians (who are generally older). For example, I have looked at members of the Catalan Parliament, and I cannot think of any male member who is as dark as Sergio Busquets and Xavi Hernandez. Even ones who are as dark as Victor Valdes and Joan Capdevila are a minority by far. http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?100448-The-Catalan-Parliament&highlight=catalan+parliament

[alnortedelsur]

It is funny you say that because I find that, if anything, Iberian sportsmen (who are generally younger) tend to be darker than Iberian politicians (who are generally older). For example, I have looked at members of the Catalan Parliament, and I cannot think of any male member who is as dark as Sergio Busquets and Xavi Hernandez. Even ones who are as dark as Victor Valdes and Joan Capdevila are a minority by far. http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?100448-The-Catalan-Parliament&highlight=catalan+parliament

I have shown plenty of pics and videos with big crowds of young Spaniards, from many regions, and most Spaniards are NOT as dark as those sportsmen.

They are Spaniards, of course, but they belong to the darkest segment of the Iberian phenotypic spectrum, and are NOT the average.

[Tooting Carmen]

I have shown plenty of pics and videos with big crowds of young Spaniards, from many regions, and most Spaniards are NOT as dark as those sportsmen.

They are Spaniards, of course, but they belong to the darkest segment of the Iberian phenotypic spectrum, and are NOT the average.

That is precisely my point.:picard1: What I tried to say the previous time was that, despite the age difference, the politicians are, if anything, MORE representative in terms of pigmentation than are the footballers, who do tend to be disproportionately swarthy and thus (a) give people a distorted idea of what most Spaniards look like and (b) lead to mass trolling on sites like these.

[alnortedelsur]

That is precisely my point.:picard1: What I tried to say the previous time was that, despite the age difference, the politicians are, if anything, MORE representative in terms of pigmentation than are the footballers, who do tend to be disproportionately swarthy and thus (a) give people a distorted idea of what most Spaniards look like and (b) lead to mass trolling on sites like these.

O.K. while I agree with you that football teams are not the best samples to represent Spanish human variety, my point is that aged people are not good samples either, because many white people, when they get older, they get a somewhat swarthier look than the look they used to have when they were in their optimal condition (when they were young).

That's why I think that young people do better represent the Iberian or any other European ethnicity. But NOT young footballers, for the reasons that you explained, but big crowds of young people from schools, universities, student protests and things like that; of course ignoring some few non-white immigrants, who are spread here and there, and who are easily distinguishable from the ethnic Iberians.

[Tooting Carmen]

O.K. while I agree with you that football teams are not the best samples to represent Spanish human variety, my point is that aged people are not good samples either, because many white people, when they get older, they get a somewhat swarthier look than the look they used to have when they were in their optimal condition (when they were young).

That's why I think that young people do better represent the Iberian or any other European ethnicity. But NOT young footballers, for the reasons that you explained, but big crowds of young people from schools, universities, student protests and things like that; of course ignoring some few non-white immigrants, who are spread here and there, and who are easily distinguishable from the ethnic Iberians.

I largely agree, but with a few caveats: while this may not be so true in Spain, in Britain the universities are crammed with foreign and ethnic minority students - in some cases up to 40-50%. So they aren't always ideal places to see native British phenotypes in their fullest either, and no doubt that applies to some other European countries too. Also, the point about politicians is that, regardless of age, they (a) are, by definition, citizens of the country and (b) even those with non-native backgrounds can have their names and origins much more easily verified. Not so with random crowd photos. In addition, sports teams across Europe - the most egregious example being France - nowadays have a very excessive number of non-native/non-white players (even many White sportsmen in France are of Polish or Southern European descent), whereas this is nowhere near as true regarding politicians.

Meanwhile, one trend that does annoy me is the growing trend for people to claim that Europeans all look the same. In fact, Swedes and Greeks are about as alike as Japanese and Malays, yet no one with any sense claims that the latter two groups look the same, just because they are both 'Asians'. What can be said, however, is that most if not all phenotypes that are found in Northern Europe can also be found in Southern Europe, but the point is NOT the other way round.

[alnortedelsur]

I largely agree, but with a few caveats: while this may not be so true in Spain, in Britain the universities are crammed with foreign and ethnic minority students - in some cases up to 40-50%. So they aren't always ideal places to see native British phenotypes in their fullest either, and no doubt that applies to some other European countries too.

As you said, the situation with the schools and universities in Britain is NOT so true in Spain. In Spain is very likely that between 80% to 90% of University, school and high school students are ethnic Iberians (including some white South Americans of Iberian ancestry, like me), and I hope that it never happen that Spain ends up like Britain. So, my point is still completely valid, at least for Spain.


Also, the point about politicians is that, regardless of age, they (a) are, by definition, citizens of the country and (b) even those with non-native backgrounds can have their names and origins much more easily verified. Not so with random crowd photos.

Regarding the inability to determine the origins of all people in big crowds, the thing is that the non-white immigrants can be very easily told apart.

I know, anyways, that there are still some small chances that some few individuals among the white young people in the crowds that I show, could have any European ancestry other than Iberian, but those would be very few and isolated cases who would only represent a very tiny, fractional, and irrelevant minority. It is obvious that the HUGE majority (if not all) of the white people in those crowds are ethnic Spaniards.



In addition, sports teams across Europe - the most egregious example being France - nowadays have a very excessive number of non-native/non-white players (even many White sportsmen in France are of Polish or Southern European descent)

I have nothing to add about this. I absolutely agree with you in this point.


whereas this is nowhere near as true regarding politicians.

True, but in most cases, they don’t show their fully lightness because their age make them look “swarthier” than they were when they were young

[alnortedelsur]

Meanwhile, one trend that does annoy me is the growing trend for people to claim that Europeans all look the same. In fact, Swedes and Greeks are about as alike as Japanese and Malays, yet no one with any sense claim that the latter two groups look the same, just because they are both 'Asians'. What can be said, however, is that most if not all phenotypes that are found in Northern Europe can also be found in Southern Europe, but the point is NOT the other way round.

Nobody claims that all Europeans look exactly the same, but they look, overall, closer with each other in comparison with peoples from other continents.

In your example about Swedes and Greeks, NOT all Swedes would look as alike to EVERY Greek as Japanese and Malays.

To be more correct, a Nordic looking Swede would be as alike to a “swarthy med” Greek as a Japanese to a Malayan, but you forget that NOT all Swedes are the stereotypical Nordic Arian, as pale as a piece of paper, with platinum-blonde hair, deep blue eyes and 2 meters height, and NO all Greeks are the typical “swarthy med” with dark olive skin tone, very dark hair and eyes, and hooked nose, that would fit better in the Middle-East.

The point is that there can be much more overlap between the different European populations, even between Swedes and Greeks, than between different Asian populations.

There are many Swedish Brunettes that would fit anywhere in Europe, including Southern Europe, and there must be also many light Greeks that would pass anywhere in Europe, even in Sweden, without being noticed.

That doesn't mean that the Swedish brunette that fits well in Southern Europe, will look exactly as a carbon copy of a Greek, Italian or Iberian, nor does it mean that the light Greek that would pass unnoticed in Scandinavia would be a carbon copy of a Scandinavian, no.

The brunette Swedish that pass unnoticed in southern Europe would still have distinctively Swedish features, and the light Greek that pass unnoticed in Northern Europe would still have distinctively Greek features, but to an untrained eye, the brunette Swedish in Southern Europe and the light Greek in Northern Europe would pass unnoticed to most people.

Japanese and Malayans are different not only in average but also in every individual case. NO one Japanese would fit in Malaysia and vice versa.

In the case of Iberians, we are NOT the darkest Europeans. Cypriots, Maltese, Greek and Southern Italians are darker, on average, than us, and yet, I was able to speak on behalf of Greeks when comparing them with other Europeans.

British Islanders are NOT the lightest Europeans either. That means that the gap between British Islanders and Iberians, for example is significantly smaller than the gap between Swedes and Greeks.

I don’t pretend that Iberians are exactly like carbon copies of northern Europeans, French or British Islanders. I am NOT a northern-Euro wannabe, nor am I a French or British wannabe. All what I say, is that most Iberians (around 80%) would fit, pigmentation wise, anywhere in Europe.

[alnortedelsur]

Meanwhile, one trend that does annoy me is the growing trend for people to claim that Europeans all look the same. In fact, Swedes and Greeks are about as alike as Japanese and Malays, yet no one with any sense claim that the latter two groups look the same, just because they are both 'Asians'. What can be said, however, is that most if not all phenotypes that are found in Northern Europe can also be found in Southern Europe, but the point is NOT the other way round.

I know very well that light features decrease in Europe as you move from north to south. That means that the average of light eyes, and light hair is lower in Spain compared to most of France, and lower in most of France compared to British Islands, and so on.

But the pigmentation differences when comparing Iberians to other Europeans are many times overrated by some ignorant people that suggest that all or almost all Spaniards have a "gypsy exotic" look, up to the point that they suggest that we fit better in Morocco or the middle east, than anywhere north of the Pyrenees.

We are just slightly less light than French, on average, but still most of us would fit well in places like France or England, NOT in Morocco. And even the minority of “swarthy” olive skinned Iberians would resemble more to “swarthy” British individuals like George Clooney, Rowan Atkinson, or Sean Connery, than to a typical Moroccan.

A blond, redhead or pale skinned brunette Iberian would NOT stand out like a sore thumb in England, Wales or France. That doesn't mean, of course, that the Iberian person that fit well in those places, fits in there because he/she looks exactly like a native British or French. No, since he/she still would have distinctive Iberian traits, but to an untrained eye, they would pass unnoticed by most people.

I know that British, French and Spaniards have their own looks, but they still share some strong genetic links with each other that is not only based in their common Paleolithic pre-Indo-European ethnic background (remember that antic Iberians built Stonehenge), but is also based in a common strong Celtic heritage that is shared between all Atlantic façade countries from Iberia to the British Islands.

The fact that British are lighter, on average, than Iberians, is due to Scandinavian and Baltic inputs that added up to their gene pool, combined with the lower levels of sun radiation in British Islands compared to Spain.

And regarding the environmental difference between British Islands and Spain, this is only reduced to the level of sun radiation, but do NOT imply a big climatic difference, since British Islands are NOT much colder than most of Spain. Most of Spain has NOT a typical Mediterranean climate as I explained in another post.

Northern coast of Spain has an Atlantic climate very similar to that of the British Islands (just slightly warmer) and most of inner Spain has a continental climate with cold winters and regular snowfalls that has nothing to envy, in low temperatures, to the winters in British Islands. And even in the areas with the typical Mediterranean climate, night temperatures in winter can drop frequently to some few degrees Celsius below zero.

The pigmentation differences between your people and mine is not that big, as for a common Spaniard or Portuguese to stand out in Britain as looking like a Moroccan, Middle-Eastern, or anything like that; nor our pigmentation differences imply that ANY Iberian is supposed to look darker than ANY British Islander.

There are many light Iberians (like me) who are lighter than many LILY WHITE British Brunettes. I am mostly Iberian, for example (close to 90% Iberian) and I am lighter featured (lighter hair and eyes) than some ethnic British Islanders, and I am not talking precisely about swarthy British like Rowan Atkinson or George Clooney, but about very LILY WHITE ethnic British who are light skinned brunettes with brown hair and brown hair such as Amelia Warner, Lilly Allen, Katherine Zeta Jones, the Corrs members, or the ex Beatles. I have lighter features than them, for example.

Of course, I’m not saying with that, that Iberians are lighter than British. I am just proving with my personal example, that although British are lighter than Iberians, they are lighter ON AVERAGE, NOT IN EVERY INDIVIDUAL CASE.

You, being a Colombian of British ancestry living in Wales, must know very well that British Islands, and particularly Wales, has plenty of light skinned Brunettes that have NOT an ultra pale “Viking” look, like the British brunette celebrities I just mentioned.

If you are honest, you must admit that NOT all British are ultra-pale Nordics like Conan O’Brien, Glenn Close, Reese Witherspoon, or Leven Rambin. Actually, very pale and Nordic looking British are a minority of your population, a big minority (maybe ~30% to 40%) but still a minority.

I was in London, visiting a sister of mine who was living there. I know that London is a melting pot, but still you come across with many ethnic British in the streets, and I didn’t feel like a “swarthy med” compared to them. And most of my Spaniard friends, who stayed there with me, did NOT look like “swarthy meds” compared to British people.

Of course, I agree that there is much higher percentage of Nordic people in your ethnicity, than Nordic looking Iberians (which also exists) in my ethnicity, but the point is that those ultra-pale Nordic British are a minority, NOT the rule.

Our pigmentation differences, compared to British Islanders, only consist in some STATISTIC DIFFERENCES when comparing both populations, which are expressed in a lower proportion of light traits such as blond/red hair, blue/green eyes in Iberians when compared to British islanders.

But still, most Iberians are pale-skinned brunettes that would NOT stand out in Britain, since they would look very similar, pigmentation-wise to MILLIONS of pale-skinned British brunettes, light enough to look very mainstream European, but who don’t necessarily look like Vikings, as is the case of the pale-brunette British celebrities that I already mentioned.

Thus, when average ethnic Iberians (who are pale-brunettes that make up about 60% of Iberian population), and the blond and/or green/blue eyed Iberians (who are roughly 20% of Iberian population) walk in the streets of any town of city in British Islands, they would still look, as individuals, distinctively Iberian, but only anthropology experts, or at least people with some knowledge of the distinct European sub-types, NOT common people, would perceive that. If they walk in the streets of Bristol, Liverpool, Dublin or Belfast, they would pass completely unnoticed, and most people would not guess they’re foreign if they don’t open their mouth.

The problem is that the whiteness of Southern Europeans like Spaniards, Portuguese, Italians and Greeks, but particularly more in the case of Iberians than any other Southern Europeans, is many times questioned by some foolish people, who base their opinions on the relatively higher percentage of “swarthy” individuals in our ethnicities compared to other European ethnicities, but they overestimate their numbers, up to the point that they assume that those “swarthy” individuals represent our average, when they’re NOT.

On the other hand, nobody questions the membership of French and British Islanders to the European brotherhood, as they are seen as “mainstream” Europeans, in a way that nobody questions that they look very “standard white” for what is commonly accepted as being within the European range of lightness, even ignoring that they also have their low percentage of “swarthy” individuals. And I know that your people have a lower percentage of “swarthy” individuals than my ethnicity, but still, our “swarthy” individuals are also minority among us.

If I always mention France and British Islands as examples of non-Mediterranean European places where most Iberians (about 80%) can fit, is not because I think that they are identical to us, or identical between them. But it happens that they are the two “accepted as mainstream European” countries that are closest to us, not only by geography, but also genetically and phenotypically, than any other “accepted as mainstream European” countries located further away, like Germany or Poland.

That said, an ethnic Iberian pale skinned brunette (which is the Iberian average), or a blond/red hair and/or light eyed Iberian has more chances to look closer, to their counterparts of France and British Islands, than to their counterparts from “accepted as mainstream European” countries located further away, like Germany or Poland. That’s why I often put France and British Islands of examples of places where most Iberians would pass without being noticed.

[alnortedelsur]

bump

[Anthropologique]

I know very well that light features decrease in Europe as you move from north to south. That means that the average of light eyes, and light hair is lower in Spain compared to most of France, and lower in most of France compared to British Islands, and so on.

But the pigmentation differences when comparing Iberians to other Europeans are many times overrated by some ignorant people that suggest that all or almost all Spaniards have a "gypsy exotic" look, up to the point that they suggest that we fit better in Morocco or the middle east, than anywhere north of the Pyrenees.

We are just slightly less light than French, on average, but still most of us would fit well in places like France or England, NOT in Morocco. And even the minority of “swarthy” olive skinned Iberians would resemble more to “swarthy” British individuals like George Clooney, Rowan Atkinson, or Sean Connery, than to a typical Moroccan.

A blond, redhead or pale skinned brunette Iberian would NOT stand out like a sore thumb in England, Wales or France. That doesn't mean, of course, that the Iberian person that fit well in those places, fits in there because he/she looks exactly like a native British or French. No, since he/she still would have distinctive Iberian traits, but to an untrained eye, they would pass unnoticed by most people.

I know that British, French and Spaniards have their own looks, but they still share some strong genetic links with each other that is not only based in their common Paleolithic pre-Indo-European ethnic background (remember that antic Iberians built Stonehenge), but is also based in a common strong Celtic heritage that is shared between all Atlantic façade countries from Iberia to the British Islands.

The fact that British are lighter, on average, than Iberians, is due to Scandinavian and Baltic inputs that added up to their gene pool, combined with the lower levels of sun radiation in British Islands compared to Spain.

And regarding the environmental difference between British Islands and Spain, this is only reduced to the level of sun radiation, but do NOT imply a big climatic difference, since British Islands are NOT much colder than most of Spain. Most of Spain has NOT a typical Mediterranean climate as I explained in another post.

Northern coast of Spain has an Atlantic climate very similar to that of the British Islands (just slightly warmer) and most of inner Spain has a continental climate with cold winters and regular snowfalls that has nothing to envy, in low temperatures, to the winters in British Islands. And even in the areas with the typical Mediterranean climate, night temperatures in winter can drop frequently to some few degrees Celsius below zero.

The pigmentation differences between your people and mine is not that big, as for a common Spaniard or Portuguese to stand out in Britain as looking like a Moroccan, Middle-Eastern, or anything like that; nor our pigmentation differences imply that ANY Iberian is supposed to look darker than ANY British Islander.

There are many light Iberians (like me) who are lighter than many LILY WHITE British Brunettes. I am mostly Iberian, for example (close to 90% Iberian) and I am lighter featured (lighter hair and eyes) than some ethnic British Islanders, and I am not talking precisely about swarthy British like Rowan Atkinson or George Clooney, but about very LILY WHITE ethnic British who are light skinned brunettes with brown hair and brown hair such as Amelia Warner, Lilly Allen, Katherine Zeta Jones, the Corrs members, or the ex Beatles. I have lighter features than them, for example.

Of course, I’m not saying with that, that Iberians are lighter than British. I am just proving with my personal example, that although British are lighter than Iberians, they are lighter ON AVERAGE, NOT IN EVERY INDIVIDUAL CASE.

You, being a Colombian of British ancestry living in Wales, must know very well that British Islands, and particularly Wales, has plenty of light skinned Brunettes that have NOT an ultra pale “Viking” look, like the British brunette celebrities I just mentioned.

If you are honest, you must admit that NOT all British are ultra-pale Nordics like Conan O’Brien, Glenn Close, Reese Witherspoon, or Leven Rambin. Actually, very pale and Nordic looking British are a minority of your population, a big minority (maybe ~30% to 40%) but still a minority.

I was in London, visiting a sister of mine who was living there. I know that London is a melting pot, but still you come across with many ethnic British in the streets, and I didn’t feel like a “swarthy med” compared to them. And most of my Spaniard friends, who stayed there with me, did NOT look like “swarthy meds” compared to British people.

Of course, I agree that there is much higher percentage of Nordic people in your ethnicity, than Nordic looking Iberians (which also exists) in my ethnicity, but the point is that those ultra-pale Nordic British are a minority, NOT the rule.

Our pigmentation differences, compared to British Islanders, only consist in some STATISTIC DIFFERENCES when comparing both populations, which are expressed in a lower proportion of light traits such as blond/red hair, blue/green eyes in Iberians when compared to British islanders.

But still, most Iberians are pale-skinned brunettes that would NOT stand out in Britain, since they would look very similar, pigmentation-wise to millions of pale-skinned British brunettes, light enough to look very mainstream European, but who don’t necessarily look like Vikings, as is the case of the pale-brunette British celebrities that I already mentioned.

Thus, when average ethnic Iberians (who are pale-brunettes that make up about 60% of Iberian population), and the blond and/or green/blue eyed Iberians (who are roughly 20% of Iberian population) walk in the streets of any town of city in British Islands, they would still look, as individuals, distinctively Iberian, but only anthropology experts, or at least people with some knowledge of the distinct European sub-types, NOT common people, would perceive that. If they walk in the streets of Bristol, Liverpool, Dublin or Belfast, they would pass completely unnoticed, and most people would not guess they’re foreign if they don’t open their mouth.

The problem is that the whiteness of Southern Europeans like Spaniards, Portuguese, Italians and Greeks, but particularly more in the case of Iberians than any other Southern Europeans, is many times questioned by some foolish people, who base their opinions on the relatively higher percentage of “swarthy” individuals in our ethnicities compared to other European ethnicities, but they overestimate their numbers, up to the point that they assume that those “swarthy” individuals represent our average, when they’re NOT.

On the other hand, nobody questions the membership of French and British Islanders to the European brotherhood, as they are seen as “mainstream” Europeans, in a way that nobody questions that they look very “standard white” for what is commonly accepted as being within the European range of lightness, even ignoring that they also have their low percentage of “swarthy” individuals. And I know that your people have a lower percentage of “swarthy” individuals than my ethnicity, but still, our “swarthy” individuals are also minority among us.

If I always mention France and British Islands as examples of non-Mediterranean European places where most Iberians (about 80%) can fit, is not because I think that they are identical to us, or identical between them. But it happens that they are the two “accepted as mainstream European” countries that are closest to us, not only by geography, but also genetically and phenotypically, than any other “accepted as mainstream European” countries located further away, like Germany or Poland.

That said, an ethnic Iberian pale skinned brunette (which is the Iberian average), or a blond/red hair and/or light eyed Iberian has more chances to look closer, to their counterparts of France and British Islands, than to their counterparts from “accepted as mainstream European” countries located further away, like Germany or Poland. That’s why I often put France and British Islands of examples of places where most Iberians would pass without being noticed.

Excellent! Keep up the good work and spread the truth to the imbeciles inhabiting this forum.

[Tooting Carmen]

@alnortedelsur: Wow, those were lengthy pieces. First of all, I do not deny there is a certain commonality between all European peoples, but I do worry that, in some cases at least, people overstate it in order to obliterate different languages and cultures, as well as to further political integration and the anti-democratic tendencies of the EU. Furthermore, yes I know that Iberians are not the darkest Europeans - Southern Italians, Greeks, Maltese and Cypriots are unquestionably darker - and that many people have this misconception that 80% of them are olive-skinned and 20% are fair-skinned when the ratio is, more or less, the complete reverse. On the other hand, more than a few Southern Europeans do get over-sensitive when it is pointed out, by me and others, that Euro-Med phenotypes can, on occasion, cross over with those (much despised) people in the Middle East. Which only makes sense, given that MENAs and even some South Asians are also technically Caucasoid, just with darker complexions. That said (again, contrary to stereotype) this is less true of Iberians than SE Europeans, as the latter are genetically much more Near Eastern-shifted and really do sometimes look Turkish, Armenian, Lebanese etc. In addition, whether Iberians really can pass in Britain is more on a case-by-case basis, and in my experience, having met so many both in Britain and in Spain, I'd say the percentage who can is up to one third. Undoubtedly most Iberians can certainly pass in France, but that is as much to do with France's own Mediterranean streak as it is to do with the prevalence of light Iberians. I just think saying that an absolute majority can pass in Britain too is a bit more of a stretch. But of course, the phenotypical differences between Britain and Spain are MUCH smaller than between Sweden and Greece, given the (relative) darkness of Brits compared to Swedes as well as the (relative) lightness of Spaniards compared to Greeks, in addition to the fact that Brits and Spaniards both are, in essence, Western European/Atlantic populations, even if the elements that make up their ethnogenesis are not exactly identical. Lastly, I should point out that a good few people routinely used as examples of 'dark Brits' are, in fact, mixed with Southern Europeans, Jews or non-whites. Examples: Michelle Keegan (part-Spaniard), Amy Winehouse (Jewish), Simon Cowell (part-Jewish), Melanie Sykes (part-Burmese) etc.

[Anthropologique]

I know very well that light features decrease in Europe as you move from north to south. That means that the average of light eyes, and light hair is lower in Spain compared to most of France, and lower in most of France compared to British Islands, and so on.

But the pigmentation differences when comparing Iberians to other Europeans are many times overrated by some ignorant people that suggest that all or almost all Spaniards have a "gypsy exotic" look, up to the point that they suggest that we fit better in Morocco or the middle east, than anywhere north of the Pyrenees.

We are just slightly less light than French, on average, but still most of us would fit well in places like France or England, NOT in Morocco. And even the minority of “swarthy” olive skinned Iberians would resemble more to “swarthy” British individuals like George Clooney, Rowan Atkinson, or Sean Connery, than to a typical Moroccan.

A blond, redhead or pale skinned brunette Iberian would NOT stand out like a sore thumb in England, Wales or France. That doesn't mean, of course, that the Iberian person that fit well in those places, fits in there because he/she looks exactly like a native British or French. No, since he/she still would have distinctive Iberian traits, but to an untrained eye, they would pass unnoticed by most people.

I know that British, French and Spaniards have their own looks, but they still share some strong genetic links with each other that is not only based in their common Paleolithic pre-Indo-European ethnic background (remember that antic Iberians built Stonehenge), but is also based in a common strong Celtic heritage that is shared between all Atlantic façade countries from Iberia to the British Islands.

The fact that British are lighter, on average, than Iberians, is due to Scandinavian and Baltic inputs that added up to their gene pool, combined with the lower levels of sun radiation in British Islands compared to Spain.

And regarding the environmental difference between British Islands and Spain, this is only reduced to the level of sun radiation, but do NOT imply a big climatic difference, since British Islands are NOT much colder than most of Spain. Most of Spain has NOT a typical Mediterranean climate as I explained in another post.

Northern coast of Spain has an Atlantic climate very similar to that of the British Islands (just slightly warmer) and most of inner Spain has a continental climate with cold winters and regular snowfalls that has nothing to envy, in low temperatures, to the winters in British Islands. And even in the areas with the typical Mediterranean climate, night temperatures in winter can drop frequently to some few degrees Celsius below zero.

The pigmentation differences between your people and mine is not that big, as for a common Spaniard or Portuguese to stand out in Britain as looking like a Moroccan, Middle-Eastern, or anything like that; nor our pigmentation differences imply that ANY Iberian is supposed to look darker than ANY British Islander.

There are many light Iberians (like me) who are lighter than many LILY WHITE British Brunettes. I am mostly Iberian, for example (close to 90% Iberian) and I am lighter featured (lighter hair and eyes) than some ethnic British Islanders, and I am not talking precisely about swarthy British like Rowan Atkinson or George Clooney, but about very LILY WHITE ethnic British who are light skinned brunettes with brown hair and brown hair such as Amelia Warner, Lilly Allen, Katherine Zeta Jones, the Corrs members, or the ex Beatles. I have lighter features than them, for example.

Of course, I’m not saying with that, that Iberians are lighter than British. I am just proving with my personal example, that although British are lighter than Iberians, they are lighter ON AVERAGE, NOT IN EVERY INDIVIDUAL CASE.

You, being a Colombian of British ancestry living in Wales, must know very well that British Islands, and particularly Wales, has plenty of light skinned Brunettes that have NOT an ultra pale “Viking” look, like the British brunette celebrities I just mentioned.

If you are honest, you must admit that NOT all British are ultra-pale Nordics like Conan O’Brien, Glenn Close, Reese Witherspoon, or Leven Rambin. Actually, very pale and Nordic looking British are a minority of your population, a big minority (maybe ~30% to 40%) but still a minority.

I was in London, visiting a sister of mine who was living there. I know that London is a melting pot, but still you come across with many ethnic British in the streets, and I didn’t feel like a “swarthy med” compared to them. And most of my Spaniard friends, who stayed there with me, did NOT look like “swarthy meds” compared to British people.

Of course, I agree that there is much higher percentage of Nordic people in your ethnicity, than Nordic looking Iberians (which also exists) in my ethnicity, but the point is that those ultra-pale Nordic British are a minority, NOT the rule.

Our pigmentation differences, compared to British Islanders, only consist in some STATISTIC DIFFERENCES when comparing both populations, which are expressed in a lower proportion of light traits such as blond/red hair, blue/green eyes in Iberians when compared to British islanders.

But still, most Iberians are pale-skinned brunettes that would NOT stand out in Britain, since they would look very similar, pigmentation-wise to millions of pale-skinned British brunettes, light enough to look very mainstream European, but who don’t necessarily look like Vikings, as is the case of the pale-brunette British celebrities that I already mentioned.

Thus, when average ethnic Iberians (who are pale-brunettes that make up about 60% of Iberian population), and the blond and/or green/blue eyed Iberians (who are roughly 20% of Iberian population) walk in the streets of any town of city in British Islands, they would still look, as individuals, distinctively Iberian, but only anthropology experts, or at least people with some knowledge of the distinct European sub-types, NOT common people, would perceive that. If they walk in the streets of Bristol, Liverpool, Dublin or Belfast, they would pass completely unnoticed, and most people would not guess they’re foreign if they don’t open their mouth.

The problem is that the whiteness of Southern Europeans like Spaniards, Portuguese, Italians and Greeks, but particularly more in the case of Iberians than any other Southern Europeans, is many times questioned by some foolish people, who base their opinions on the relatively higher percentage of “swarthy” individuals in our ethnicities compared to other European ethnicities, but they overestimate their numbers, up to the point that they assume that those “swarthy” individuals represent our average, when they’re NOT.

On the other hand, nobody questions the membership of French and British Islanders to the European brotherhood, as they are seen as “mainstream” Europeans, in a way that nobody questions that they look very “standard white” for what is commonly accepted as being within the European range of lightness, even ignoring that they also have their low percentage of “swarthy” individuals. And I know that your people have a lower percentage of “swarthy” individuals than my ethnicity, but still, our “swarthy” individuals are also minority among us.

If I always mention France and British Islands as examples of non-Mediterranean European places where most Iberians (about 80%) can fit, is not because I think that they are identical to us, or identical between them. But it happens that they are the two “accepted as mainstream European” countries that are closest to us, not only by geography, but also genetically and phenotypically, than any other “accepted as mainstream European” countries located further away, like Germany or Poland.

That said, an ethnic Iberian pale skinned brunette (which is the Iberian average), or a blond/red hair and/or light eyed Iberian has more chances to look closer, to their counterparts of France and British Islands, than to their counterparts from “accepted as mainstream European” countries located further away, like Germany or Poland. That’s why I often put France and British Islands of examples of places where most Iberians would pass without being noticed.

Light hair totals ~ 20% in both Spain and Portugal. I thought Portugal was 15-18% until recently, when I read a variety of biological anthropology materials on Euro pigmentation stating ~ 20%

Light red hair (ginger) is only ~ 3% in Spain and Portugal but if you add all auburn shades, it's more like 7-8%. To compare, Scotland is ~ 15% (ALL shades of red).

Light eyes run more like 25-30% in both countries. Hazel and light brown are not included.

[Sikeliot]

la vita e bella, I don't know why you use Greeks as the absolute darkest case for Europe when they have more "Atlantic-Baltic" type genes than some Italians, certainly more so than the Maltese, etc. I mean, once you count all of those groups then you can turn to Greeks as darkest, but there is a noticeable difference between them and Cypriots, and I can say that Greeks in Epirus, Thessaly, Macedonia and Thrace would not be darker than central Italians, and in fact are genetically closer to Tuscans than to Calabrese.

[Tooting Carmen]

la vita e bella, I don't know why you use Greeks as the absolute darkest case for Europe when they have more "Atlantic-Baltic" type genes than some Italians, certainly more so than the Maltese, etc. I mean, once you count all of those groups then you can turn to Greeks as darkest, but there is a noticeable difference between them and Cypriots, and I can say that Greeks in Epirus, Thessaly, Macedonia and Thrace would not be darker than central Italians, and in fact are genetically closer to Tuscans than to Calabrese.

(a) While some Italian regions may be darker than Greece, the Italian nation AS A WHOLE most certainly isn't. In fact, it is not even close. (b) Yes I know that Maltese and Cypriots are actually darker than Greeks but, of all the countries in MAINLAND Europe, Greece is undoubtedly the darkest.

[Sikeliot]

(a) While some Italian regions may be darker than Greece, the Italian nation AS A WHOLE most certainly isn't. In fact, it is not even close. (b) Yes I know that Maltese and Cypriots are actually darker than Greeks but, of all the countries in MAINLAND Europe, Greece is undoubtedly the darkest.

If you made far southern Italy into a country (Campania, Calabria, Lucania, Apulia and Sicily), then it'd be darker as a whole than Greece, because not even Campania is lighter than Epirus, Thrace, Macedonia and Thessaly. Campania might be on par, but the rest would be darker. In fact I'd go so far as to say I think Calabrese and Sicilians (excluding Palermo) look more like Cypriots than like Greeks.

But the four northernmost parts of Greece, and even to an extent the Peloponnese, are closer genetically to Tuscans and central Italians than to far southerners, and whether you agree or not, I am not surprised by this.

[Tooting Carmen]

If you made far southern Italy into a country (Campania, Calabria, Lucania, Apulia and Sicily), then it'd be darker as a whole than Greece, because not even Campania is lighter than Epirus, Thrace, Macedonia and Thessaly. Campania might be on par, but the rest would be darker. In fact I'd go so far as to say I think Calabrese and Sicilians (excluding Palermo) look more like Cypriots than like Greeks.

But the four northernmost parts of Greece, and even to an extent the Peloponnese, are closer genetically to Tuscans and central Italians than to far southerners, and whether you agree or not, I am not surprised by this.

That's the point though - Southern Italy isn't a country, whereas Greece is; besides which, most of the heavily populated cities and regions of Italy are in the North. Therefore, when ALL Italians are compared to ALL Greeks, the former are lighter by a quite considerable margin. But you're right, many far Southern Italians do look more like Cypriots than like Greeks.

[Sikeliot]

That's the point though - Southern Italy isn't a country, whereas Greece is; besides which, most of the heavily populated cities and regions of Italy are in the North. Therefore, when ALL Italians are compared to ALL Greeks, the former are lighter by a quite considerable margin. But you're right, many far Southern Italians do look more like Cypriots than like Greeks.

Well I don't understand why you don't use the same logic then with Spain.. if Italy has regions far darker than Spain, then I don't get why you refuse to admit Spaniards are lighter as a whole than Italians.

[Tooting Carmen]

Well I don't understand why you don't use the same logic then with Spain.. if Italy has regions far darker than Spain, then I don't get why you refuse to admit Spaniards are lighter as a whole than Italians.

I've always said that Italy has more of both extremes than Spain - more truly exotic types (principally in the far South) but also, given its proximity to Austria and Germany, more blonde and Nordic types (principally in the North). In essence, however, the two extremes ultimately cancel each other out; thus in reality, Spaniards and Italians are roughly the same pigmentation-wise, even though their facial traits do differ from one another.

[Sikeliot]

I've always said that Italy has more of both extremes than Spain - more truly exotic types (principally in the far South) but also, given its proximity to Austria and Germany, more blonde and Nordic types (principally in the North). In essence, however, the two extremes ultimately cancel each other out; thus in reality, Spaniards and Italians are roughly the same pigmentation-wise, even though their facial traits do differ from one another.

I don't understand your reasoning.

The average Spanish phenotype is somewhere in between the lightest and darkest Italian, but the "average" Italian is not an intermediate phenotype. If I randomly picked 2 Italians, I'd expect one to be lighter than the Spanish average, and one darker. There is no sizeable amount of Italians who actually have the average pigmentation of a Spaniard, because I think Campania southward is darker on average, and Tuscany northward lighter. Maybe Lazio, Abruzzo, and Molise are on par with Spain but I would still call those regions darker.

[Anthropologique]

I've always said that Italy has more of both extremes than Spain - more truly exotic types (principally in the far South) but also, given its proximity to Austria and Germany, more blonde and Nordic types (principally in the North). In essence, however, the two extremes ultimately cancel each other out; thus in reality, Spaniards and Italians are roughly the same pigmentation-wise, even though their facial traits do differ from one another.

Proximity doesn't mean much in this case. The Alps were a natural barrier - check some of the most recent genetic studies. Where do N. Italians cluster (autosomal DNA which is a major determinant of pigmentation)? Near the Spaniards and Portuguese. The latter two are actually closer to the (Southern) French. At best, N. Italians are on par with Iberians in pigmentation and less Western looking.

[WOOHP]

No they are quite average when it comes to pigmentation. Like 90% of all southern Europeans are dark haired and maybe 85% are dark eyed.

[Tooting Carmen]

Proximity doesn't mean much in this case. The Alps were a natural barrier - check some of the most recent genetic studies. Where do N. Italians cluster (autosomal DNA which is a major determinant of pigmentation)? Near the Spaniards and Portuguese. The latter two are actually closer to the (Southern) French. At best, N. Italians are on par with Iberians in pigmentation and less Western looking.

Yes, Northern Italians are roughly as far South as Iberians genetically, only they plot further East.

[Tooting Carmen]

Like 90% of all southern Europeans are dark haired and maybe 85% are dark eyed.

Oh do shut up. It is not as extreme as that (except maybe in Malta and far Southern Italy, but even so...)

[brazuca]

No they are quite average when it comes to pigmentation. Like 90% of all southern Europeans are dark haired and maybe 85% are dark eyed.

lol light hair are more common than clear eyes

[Tooting Carmen]

lol light hair are more common than clear eyes

Actually, no. In all Caucasoid populations, light eyes are more common than light hair.

[brazuca]

Actually, no. In all Caucasoid populations, light eyes are more common than light hair.

I saw much more Iberians with medium brown hair to blonde than with clear eyes

clear eyes in iberians should be between 15% to 20% green eyes are much more common than blue eyes

[Tooting Carmen]

I saw much more Iberians with medium brown hair to blonde than with clear eyes

clear eyes in iberians should be between 15% to 20% green eyes are much more common than blue eyes

Really? Dark hair and light eyes is a much more common combination than the reverse, e.g footballer Juan Mata
http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1428008.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Juan%2520Mata%2520slider-1428008

Anyway, this thread is about all of Southern Europe, not just Iberia, and I don't want to go too much off in a tangent any longer.

[brazuca]

Really? Dark hair and light eyes is a much more common combination than the reverse, e.g footballer Juan Mata
http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article1428008.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Juan%2520Mata%2520slider-1428008

Anyway, this thread is about all of Southern Europe, not just Iberia, and I don't want to go too much off in a tangent any longer.

I am speaking based on what I see in Brazil I do not live in southern europe so I can not speak for them