Is French Basque the same as Irish genetically?

[JQP4545]

On my results for the Eurogenes V2 K15 it says that I am 18% French Basque. I do not have any Basque ancestry, but I do have significant Irish ancestry. Are these two populations related?

Pct. Calc. Option 1

1 Danish 24.98%
2 French 19.60%
3 French_Basque 18.51%
4 Serbian 7.89%
5 Lezgin 7.43%
6 Austrian 7.38%
7 Chuvash 6.81%
8 Lebanese_Druze 6.19%
9 Greek 1.20%
10 Bulgarian 0.01%

[Anglojew]

Paleo-Atlantid

[JQP4545]

Paleo-Atlantid

What do you mean by this?

[Argang]

The Irish in this calculator are much closer to continental germanic populations than to Basques.


North Sea / Atlantic / Baltic / East Euro / West Med / West Asian / East Med / Red Sea / South Asian / Southeast Asian / Siberian / Amerindian / Oceanian / Northeast African / Sub-Saharan

Irish 36.38 / 30.66 / 11.15 / 8.12 / 6.98 / 3.34 / 1.24 / 0.67 / 0.55 / 0.05 / 0.05 / 0.6 / 0.1 / 0.07 / 0.04
Dutch 36.73 / 25.56 / 11.99 / 10.39 / 8.42 / 3.34 / 1.66 / 0.84 / 0.52 / 0.04 / 0.04 / 0.25 / 0.1 / 0.08 / 0.05


Basque 16.85 / 45.4 / 4.79 / 2.82 / 25.04 / 0.83 / 2.74 / 0.73 / 0.13 / 0.28 / 0.04 / 0.03 / 0.1 / 0.17 / 0.04

[JQP4545]

The Irish in this calculator are much closer to continental germanic populations than to Basques.


Who would be the closest to Basques?

[Argang]

Southwest French and Aragonese.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

What they are detecting is holdout DNA from neanderthal time. Since they are both remote areas they both retain more than most people.

[JQP4545]

Weren't the British Isles originally populated by Basques? I thought this was detecting more of an indigenous Irish component.

[Anglojew]

What do you mean by this?

They're the original inhabitants of Europe (U haplogroup etc) pushed west by each succeeding invasion (Indo-Euro etc) until they survive in pure form in pockets along the western coastline of Europe. The primary places are the British Isles, Spain, Portugal, Norway and France. They're what anthropologists used to refer to as Pre-Celts in Britain but Paleo-Atlantid is a better term in my opinion.

Basically the Atlantid on this map;

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/523963_163781270484883_617315204_n.png

Although none are shown in Norway but I personally believe they're present along the west coast. Good modern example of this type still found in Norway (but less common in Sweden/Denmark);

http://www.tylden.no/artister/lasse/saker/200918_soh.jpg

I also think a similar type is found in Southern Germany (often attributed to Celts but in reality Neolithic survivors). I would guess Sardinia too but I haven't looked into it.

[JQP4545]

They're the original inhabitants of Europe (U haplogroup etc) pushed west by each succeeding invasion (Indo-Euro etc) until they survive in pure form in pockets along the western coastline of Europe. The primary places are the British Isles, Spain, Portugal, Norway and France. They're what anthropologists used to refer to as Pre-Celts in Britain by Paleo-Atlantid is a better term in my opinion.

This is what I thought. I have ancestors from the West of Ireland and I thought they may be similar to Basque genetically.

[Anglojew]

This is what I thought. I have ancestors from the West of Ireland and I thought they may be similar to Basque genetically.

Yes, I have the same thing from England/Wales/Cornwell which is why I show so much Spanish -similar mix of "Celt" [+pre-celt] and Germanic- as Spaniards so I show as 70% Spanish according to McDonald which at first I found odd as I'm showing French(or Spanish)+German+Swedish+Mandean (1/4 each) on other tests.

[Damião de Góis]

On my results for the Eurogenes V2 K15 it says that I am 18% French Basque. I do not have any Basque ancestry, but I do have significant Irish ancestry. Are these two populations related?


Not really, they are as related as any other two random european countries, like for example Italy and Hungary.

[JQP4545]

Not really, they are as related as any other two random european countries, like for example Italy and Hungary.

So you are saying the results should just be interpreted literally, meaning 18% French Basque means 18% French Basque and nothing else?

[Black Wolf]

On my results for the Eurogenes V2 K15 it says that I am 18% French Basque. I do not have any Basque ancestry, but I do have significant Irish ancestry. Are these two populations related?

Pct. Calc. Option 1

1 Danish 24.98%
2 French 19.60%
3 French_Basque 18.51%
4 Serbian 7.89%
5 Lezgin 7.43%
6 Austrian 7.38%
7 Chuvash 6.81%
8 Lebanese_Druze 6.19%
9 Greek 1.20%
10 Bulgarian 0.01%

Your results make sense. The Basque score basically means far West European ancestry. The Basques and Irish do share a significant amount of common ancestry which stems from an ancient West European population source.

[JQP4545]

It looks like most people are saying the answer to the original question is "NO" the Irish are not really related to Basques. The Irish are closer to other NW Europeans and Basque are closer to South French and North Spanish...?

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Related to them by sharing ancient european holdout dna. Not quite the same as basque came to ireland, but they are related.

[Damião de Góis]

So you are saying the results should just be interpreted literally, meaning 18% French Basque means 18% French Basque and nothing else?

Yes, but in any case these results shouldn't be taken literaly. On the same run i get these results (i am 100% portuguese):

Pct. Calc. Option 1

1 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 72.81%
2 French_Basque 10.92%
3 North_Italian 3.52%
4 Danish 3.35%
5 Greek 2.88%

[Black Wolf]

The scores on Oracle-X just show possible population combinations that your genes look like. Do not take them literally. French Basque here just means old far West European ancestry.

[JQP4545]

Related to them by sharing ancient european holdout dna. Not quite the same as basque came to ireland, but they are related.

So they share ancient european holdout DNA, but they also acquired North Sea DNA? Would that be correct? So you are saying perhaps my Irish ancestors were more "Black Irish" Basque-like rather than North Sea/Basque hybrid like most Irish?

[Black Wolf]

They're the original inhabitants of Europe (U haplogroup etc) pushed west by each succeeding invasion (Indo-Euro etc) until they survive in pure form in pockets along the western coastline of Europe. The primary places are the British Isles, Spain, Portugal, Norway and France. They're what anthropologists used to refer to as Pre-Celts in Britain but Paleo-Atlantid is a better term in my opinion.

Basically the Atlantid on this map;

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/523963_163781270484883_617315204_n.png

Although none are shown in Norway but I personally believe they're present along the west coast. Good modern example of this type still found in Norway (but less common in Sweden/Denmark);

http://www.tylden.no/artister/lasse/saker/200918_soh.jpg

I also think a similar type is found in Southern Germany (often attributed to Celts but in reality Neolithic survivors). I would guess Sardinia too but I haven't looked into it.

mtDNA haplogroup U in this case U2, U4 and U5 types relate to European Cro-Magnids. As you know I am sure U mtDNA types are the most common in ancient pre-Neolithic remains from Europe.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

So they share ancient european holdout DNA, but they also acquired North Sea DNA? Would that be correct? So you are saying perhaps my Irish ancestors were more "Black Irish" Basque-like rather than North Sea/Basque hybrid like most Irish?

Yes probably so.

[Damião de Góis]

Also, Oracle-X is the least accurate thing that Gedmatch has to offer, and they clearly say it:


THIS UTILITY IS STILL UNDER DEVELOPMENT. RESULTS MAY CHANGE.

[JQP4545]

Yes, but in any case these results shouldn't be taken literaly. On the same run i get these results (i am 100% portuguese):

Pct. Calc. Option 1

1 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 72.81%
2 French_Basque 10.92%
3 North_Italian 3.52%
4 Danish 3.35%
5 Greek 2.88%

So the tests really don't get anymore accurate than the region of Europe? So French Basque should just be taken as South French/North Iberian.

[JQP4545]

Also, Oracle-X is the least accurate thing that Gedmatch has to offer, and they clearly say it:

Ok here is my Oracle 4-Ancestors Results:

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Dutch + French_Basque + North_Swedish + Turkish @ 4.772

Still the French Basque. I do have a little French Canadian but probably more like 6%, not 25%.

[Stormer99]

Also, Oracle-X is the least accurate thing that Gedmatch has to offer, and they clearly say it:

True. But a lot of Iberians have Basque in them.

[JQP4545]

Yes, but in any case these results shouldn't be taken literaly. On the same run i get these results (i am 100% portuguese):

Pct. Calc. Option 1

1 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 72.81%
2 French_Basque 10.92%
3 North_Italian 3.52%
4 Danish 3.35%
5 Greek 2.88%

40410

If you look at this map then look at your results it seems pretty spot on. Portuguese overlaps with Spain, Northern Italy, and Northern Spain (Basque). Also there were Germanic invasions and Greek colonies.

[Anglojew]

Ok here is my Oracle 4-Ancestors Results:

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Dutch + French_Basque + North_Swedish + Turkish @ 4.772

Still the French Basque. I do have a little French Canadian but probably more like 6%, not 25%.

Is the Turkish Turkish? eg do you have actual Turkish ancestors or does it represent other ancestry? The reason I ask is I'm German+Spanish+Swedish+Mandean so it's similar.

[JQP4545]

Maybe that answers the question. If you get 10% French Basque and you are fully Portuguese then Basque represents an Iberian component of DNA.

[Jackson]

French Basque in the results probably means just a fairly strong pull to the southwest, that would equate in the calculations with Basque admixture, real or not. My Grandmother usually gets her country and a small percentage of Basque on these too, and that is because she has a bit more Atlantic and West Med than the average for her population, and the Basque are high in both of those - So it is logical that the calculator equates that with a pull towards the Basque (or southwest in general).

[JQP4545]

Is the Turkish Turkish? eg do you have actual Turkish ancestors or does it represent other ancestry? The reason I ask is I'm German+Spanish+Swedish+Mandean so it's similar.

I have Greek ancestry with a Turkish origin surname. Western Turkey is close to Greek genetically.

[Jackson]

It's important to remember that, from the perspective of the calculator, it is merely calculating your position based on all the data it has at it's disposal. If you wanted you could call French Basque 'Banana' and keep all the data the same, and you would have Banana ancestry according to the calculator, as the actual composition of each country can be more useful in understanding why the mixed mode says a certain thing. If you are close to a particular population but vary from them (as most do to some degree), that variation will have to be explained by the calculator. So if you are Irish, but very slightly south of what is normal, the mixed mode might decide you are 97% Irish 3% Sardinian, not because it thinks you have Sardinian ancestry, but because that amount of the 'Sardinian' set of data is a way for the calculator to understand your position in relation to all the other data points (national averages). So that is where Genaeology of the traditional sort comes in useful.

[Anglojew]

I have Greek ancestry with a Turkish origin surname. Western Turkey is close to Greek genetically.

Yes. Were they Pontic Greeks?

[JQP4545]

Yes. Were they Pontic Greeks?

Nope, Peloponnesus origin. You decide if the 1/4 Turkish seems accurate:
40412

40413

[Sippola]

1 KRL 89.32% (Karelian)
2 BASQ 7.86% (Basque)
3 SAM 2.39% (Saami)
4 GBRARG 0.37%
5 NRW 0.06%
6 SRD 0.00%
7 TTR 0.00%
8 CHU 0.00%
9 HKS 0.00%
10 GBRCORN 0.00%

[JQP4545]

I also have German with viking origin surnames, Scottish (could have Viking), Westphalian German ancestry (close to Dutch), Dutch ancestry, SW German ancestry, and Irish with a little French Canadian. So really the calculator seems pretty accurate for me except the Basque is confusing. Maybe it just put the SW German, French Canadian, and Irish together and said French Basque.

[Anglojew]

Nope, Peloponnesus origin. You decide if the 1/4 Turkish seems accurate:
40412

40413

They look Greek. I'd say it's just that you share DNA with Turks (who are mostly of Turkified Byzantine origin etc).

[JQP4545]

Anyway I think we have strayed from the original post. So French Basque is closest to its neighbors and not to Irish people?

[Grace O'Malley]

Anyway I think we have strayed from the original post. So French Basque is closest to its neighbors and not to Irish people?

Why would Irish people in particular be closest to French Basque people and not to their direct neighbours? The French Basque people aren't even Celtic speakers for a start. It wouldn't make sense if the Irish were closer to French Basque because the Basque would have to bypass a few other countries for a start and also change their language. If anyone looks at dna cluster maps the Irish are most similar to Britain and other Northern Europeans. Logically populations are closest to their neighbours and this shows in dna studies.

[Grace O'Malley]

So they share ancient european holdout DNA, but they also acquired North Sea DNA? Would that be correct? So you are saying perhaps my Irish ancestors were more "Black Irish" Basque-like rather than North Sea/Basque hybrid like most Irish?

There is no distinct group in Ireland called the "Black Irish". All the Irish are the same genetically. They are quite a homogenous population as far as Europeans go. The original Irish would have come from the same source as the population in Britain. Mallory in his book The Origins of the Irish has stated that the Irish came from Britain. So wherever the British originated from so did the Irish.

It is fascinating to think that people are under the impression that the Irish have some unique origin but they don't and this is what genetics is telling us.

[Harkonnen]

There is no distinct group in Ireland called the "Black Irish".

It is always yet so fascinating how hard it is for so many to grasp these most simple things. Hail Europa.

[Harkonnen]

Anyway I bet that those Irish who look like lil chipmunks - and there be plenty of those - are descended from them little green goblins.

[JQP4545]

If Irish are descended from the Basque why is their autosomal DNA so much closer to Norwegians than Spanish?

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/08/13/science/figure1a_600.jpg

[Jackson]

If Irish are descended from the Basque why is their autosomal DNA so much closer to Norwegians than Spanish?

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/08/13/science/figure1a_600.jpg

The idea mainly stems from the early days of understanding R1b, or the 'Atlantic Modal Haplotype' that is strong throughout western Europe, and Irish and Basques both have a lot, so if you do a y DNA genetic PCA for example the Basque and Irish would show close similarity or cluster together, when in fact their similarity is one shared between all western,southwestern,northwestern and many central Europeans.

[Nehellenia]

My autosomal DNA has significant Basque admixture, i fully believe that 'Celts' are truly Basques.

[Jackson]

My autosomal DNA has significant Basque admixture, i fully believe that 'Celts' are truly Basques.

But they don't speak a Celtic language, nor have they ever afaik.

[gold_fenix]

well i score French_Basque 79.30% and in 23andme in speculative mode i have aprox 7% Irish and British, the curious is i have some genetic affinity with British in genetic comparison in 23andme

[Argang]

Basques are most similar to Southwest French and Iberians. If they're genetically "celtic", those celts weren't really connected to more northern parts of Europe.

I refer again to the Eurogenes genomewide similarity test, it did not include Southwest French but placed Spanish as most similar to Basques.

On the other hand, Estonians and Belorussians were more similar to Irish and British than Basques were. Even the French sample (origins not stated but likely a northern one since Polako did not have Southwest French in 2011) shared more with Poles and Hungarians than with Basques.

[Anglojew]

What do you mean by this?

The original people of Western Europe.

[Smeagol]

They're the original inhabitants of Europe (U haplogroup etc) pushed west by each succeeding invasion (Indo-Euro etc) until they survive in pure form in pockets along the western coastline of Europe. The primary places are the British Isles, Spain, Portugal, Norway and France. They're what anthropologists used to refer to as Pre-Celts in Britain but Paleo-Atlantid is a better term in my opinion.

Basically the Atlantid on this map;

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/523963_163781270484883_617315204_n.png

Interesting map, but Atlantid, and Paleo-Atlantid are two different types, although, on this map maybe they are together. Anyway, Paleo-Atlantids are the dark Cromagnids of Western Europe.

[Anglojew]

Basques are most similar to Southwest French and Iberians. If they're genetically "celtic", those celts weren't really connected to more northern parts of Europe.

I refer again to the Eurogenes genomewide similarity test, it did not include Southwest French but placed Spanish as most similar to Basques.

On the other hand, Estonians and Belorussians were more similar to Irish and British than Basques were. Even the French sample (origins not stated but likely a northern one since Polako did not have Southwest French in 2011) shared more with Poles and Hungarians than with Basques.

I think is "pre-Celtic" really.

[Argang]

The original people of Western Europe.

Well, based on what we know of ancient samples those would be more like Loschbour and La Braña. Basques seem very neolithic genetically.

[Anglojew]

Interesting map, but Atlantid, and Paleo-Atlantid are two different types, although, on this map maybe they are together. Anyway, Paleo-Atlantids are the dark Cromagnids of Western Europe.

Are the similar to "Bavarian" types?

[Smeagol]

Are the similar to "Bavarian" types?

Well Bavaria has many different types, and there are also some older, darker strains there, but these seem to be rather neolithic Mediterranid influences from the Near East.

[Grace O'Malley]

On my results for the Eurogenes V2 K15 it says that I am 18% French Basque. I do not have any Basque ancestry, but I do have significant Irish ancestry. Are these two populations related?

Pct. Calc. Option 1

1 Danish 24.98%
2 French 19.60%
3 French_Basque 18.51%
4 Serbian 7.89%
5 Lezgin 7.43%
6 Austrian 7.38%
7 Chuvash 6.81%
8 Lebanese_Druze 6.19%
9 Greek 1.20%
10 Bulgarian 0.01%


I can give you my results. I'm fully Irish. I think you've used Oracle X but here are mine using Pct. Calc. Option 1

Oracle

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Irish 3.03
2 West_Scottish 3.18
3 North_Dutch 3.71
4 Danish 3.92
5 Orcadian 4.92
6 Southeast_English 5.05
7 North_German 5.1
8 Southwest_English 6.72
9 Norwegian 7.23
10 West_Norwegian 7.49
11 Swedish 8.02
12 South_Dutch 9.76
13 West_German 10.83
14 North_Swedish 10.95
15 East_German 14.23
16 French 14.47
17 Southwest_Finnish 15.54
18 Austrian 18.1
19 Hungarian 18.79
20 Finnish 18.91

Oracle-4

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Irish @ 3.432
2 West_Scottish @ 3.567
3 North_Dutch @ 4.197
4 Danish @ 4.472
5 Orcadian @ 5.508
6 Southeast_English @ 5.687
7 North_German @ 5.911
8 Southwest_English @ 7.480
9 Norwegian @ 8.427
10 West_Norwegian @ 8.739
207 iterations.

Oracle-X

Pct. Calc. Option 1

1 Irish 85.85%
2 Swedish 12.10%
3 Chechen 1.98%
4 Estonian 0.03%
5 Tabassaran 0.01%
6 North_Swedish 0.01%
7 Finnish 0.01%
8 Tatar 0.01%
9 La_Brana-1 0.00%
10 Southwest_Finnish 0.00%

Total RMSD: 0.763478

[Grace O'Malley]

Your results make sense. The Basque score basically means far West European ancestry. The Basques and Irish do share a significant amount of common ancestry which stems from an ancient West European population source.

I'm 50% Western Irish and 50% South Central Irish so 100% Irish and I'm not getting any Basque on these calculations.

[Bellbeaking]

No

[Erronkari]

Who would be the closest to Basques?

Southwest_french, Spanish_Aragon and probably Spanish_Cantabria.

[Ibericus]

Southwest_french, Spanish_Aragon and probably Spanish_Cantabria.
La Rioja and Navarra also

[Erronkari]

La Rioja and Navarra also

You are absolutely right!
Indeed navarrans and aquitanians are genetically almost the same.