How to quantify Italic and Greek ancestry in populations?

[Sikeliot]

How would you quantify and/or differentiate between Italic and Greek ancestry in populations such as the Calabrese, Lucanians, Sicilians? I am curious. I know when we see people's genetic results we can compare say, a Calabrese to a Rhodian Greek, a Peloponnesian, and someone from Abruzzo and see who is closer and further away.

But which genetic "components" might signal Italic ancestry, versus Greek? Which might signal Greek? Or should we assume that the pre-Italic, pre-Greek populations of both Italy and Greece were similar to an extent that it's difficult to differentiate them?

[Vesuvian Sky]

Or should we assume that the pre-Italic, pre-Greek populations of both Italy and Greece were similar to an extent that it's difficult to differentiate them?

More or less this. I for one feel the Indo-Europeanization of Italy that leads to Italic tribes had to do more with a direct invasion to the peninsula from the Pontic-Caspian steppes during Remedello-Rinadolne cultures times c. 3400-3300 BC. By the time Italic tribes emerge, C. 700 BC or so, the original 'Kurganid' component would have been greatly diminished.

If you feel it has to do with 'Italo-Celtic Bell Beaker' theory then you're looking for 'western' components and y-dna in Italy rather then eastern which are far more prevalent.

[Sikeliot]

If you feel it has to do with 'Italo-Celtic Bell Beaker' theory then you're looking for 'western' components and y-dna in Italy rather then eastern which are far more prevalent.

These would not be Italic elements but rather Celtic, or something that would predate the Italic intrusion into Italy, I think.

[Vesuvian Sky]

Yeah I never thought the 'Italo-Celtic' theory was very sound at all. And of course linguistic paleontology doesn't support a Neolithic ME intrusion for Italy or really Europe's Indo-Europeanization in general. Ergo, its a more direct 'Kurganid' intrusion. From an autosomal standpoint, you're probably looking then for the 'east euro' component on a calc like EG K36.

This was an interesting perspective from DNA tribes though it was based on STRs:


http://imageshack.us/a/img201/8311/vwn8.jpg

Source (http://dnatribes.com/dnatribes-digest-2013-11-01.pdf)

Whether or not its valid is a whole 'nother thing as the saying goes.

[Black Wolf]

Not really possible I don't think.

[Sikeliot]

The "Italian" there must be northern Italian. If you look at the thread with Dodecad results, the Greek islanders and Sicilians/Calabrese are identical. DNA tribes is pretty flawed to an extent, but sometimes they are accurate.

[Vesuvian Sky]

The "Italian" there must be northern Italian. If you look at the thread with Dodecad results, the Greek islanders and Sicilians/Calabrese are identical. DNA tribes is pretty flawed to an extent, but sometimes they are accurate.

Well, the other thing here to consider is how much 'Kurganid' would be in Greeks. Indo-Europeanization of Greece is occurring actually later then Italy with Early Heladic II c. 2,500-2,300 BC:

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5402/oz2w.png

Whether or not the DNA analysis is accurate, the concept of 'Kurgan' invasion has to be considered and the cultural epochs that DNA tribes assigns to IE-ization of certain areas is fairly logical based on how it most likely would have played out.

edit: so naturally its odd that there's no 'Kurgan' in Greeks.