Turks or Armenians: Which group is Whiter? Which group looks more European?

[Arkadi Agapetos]

Freestyle thread.

Compare and Contrast the Phenotypes of Turks and Armenians.

Also

Compare and Contrast Genetic Test Results of Turks and Armenians.

Post links to online sources, images of people, graphs and figures, etc.

[DarkSecret]

You mean white monkeys????

[Arkadi Agapetos]

Compare and contrast the abundance of the following components in Turks and Armenians?

West Asian
Eastern European
Central Asian
South-West Asian
South Asian
East Asian
North African
Sub Saharan African

[meralodem]

I know some armenians from my parents city in East Anatolia and they are dark and met a few armenians in some chess tournaments and university, they were all dark and sorry but ultra ugly and I was seriously thinking that this was due to narrow environment for mixing but I saw many pretty armenians online so I dont know cause we dont see many armenians, for Türks we are generally dark people , at least for hair and eye type but mostly very dark brown unlike black armenians

[Carlito's Way]

Turks are more whiter and can be more European looking commpared to Armenians

Turks from Orange County
http://octurkishschool.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/23Nisan2008.jpg

Armenians from California
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2012/05/1328298022-bannerapxiii-8afb28d348.png

[DarkSecret]

Some of the both could pass as European I am not sure though...

[Baluarte]

Not entirely sure about looks. I'd say similar or Armenians a bit whiter.

Culturally though, Armenia is certainly much more related to Europe than Turkey.

[meralodem]

Turks are more whiter and can be more European looking commpared to Armenians

Turks from Orange County
http://octurkishschool.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/23Nisan2008.jpg

Armenians from California
http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2012/05/1328298022-bannerapxiii-8afb28d348.png

That's called cherry picking plus you compare children to adults as it is known children tend to be lighter

[orangepulp]

A dendrogram made by MFA from Dodecad K12b. Mostly dominated by Turks, non Turks have their ethnicity listed rather than their names. You will see Armenians, Kurds, Greeks, Laz, Georgian and Pontic Greek.

Turks plot according to their geographical location.

http://abload.de/img/mfa_tr23_k12bv3om8.png

http://abload.de/img/mfa_tr23_k12boou14.png

[Carlito's Way]

That's called cherry picking plus you compare children to adults as it is known children tend to be lighter

turks are lighter and Armenians in California get mistaken for mexican-american gangsters

[DarkSecret]

Not entirely sure about looks. I'd say similar or Armenians a bit whiter.

Culturally though, Armenia is certainly much more related to Europe than Turkey.

And Iran is much more related to Europe LOL ahhahah.. I will Turkify you if you will continue to do so!!!

[Baluarte]

And Iran is much more related to Europe LOL ahhahah.. I will Turkify you if you will continue to do so!!!

Just pick a history book, and you'll see. Armenian Oriental Orthodox tradition is much closer to the European world than the Seljuk/Ottoman blend of nomadic barbarism and Sunnism.

[orangepulp]

See Dr. Mcdonalds plots, Turks and Armenians are both none white. They don't plot with Europeans but are both West Asians. And comparing people according to skin tone is stupid. White skinned and dark skinned people can be found all over Western Asia.

http://imageshack.com/a/img819/2953/toga.png
http://imageshack.com/a/img59/5584/85rz.png
http://imageshack.com/a/img853/1695/rc9h.png

[DarkSecret]

Just pick a history book, and you'll see. Armenian Oriental Orthodox tradition is much closer to the European world than the Seljuk/Ottoman blend of nomadic barbarism and Sunnism.

You are looking from religion perspective. Europe is today mostly atheist... You don't consider history or geography or politics. Why do study politics anyway you must study religion and become and imam in Vatican pray for 5 time in Vatican...:D Then you will be a muslimified catholic turkified french colombian...

[orangepulp]

Just pick a history book, and you'll see. Armenian Oriental Orthodox tradition is much closer to the European world than the Seljuk/Ottoman blend of nomadic barbarism and Sunnism.

By such logic a Christian Armenian is more European to you than a Muslim Bosnian or a Muslim Albanian.
Btw, Christianity is a Middle Eastern religion if anything original Christianity is closer to Islam than todays so called cultural Christians. And Ottomans were Muslims. Before any nation accepted christianity or Islam they were all known as Barbarians. Before Christianity was accepted by Europeans they were also known to be barbaric.

[meralodem]

Just pick a history book, and you'll see. Armenian Oriental Orthodox tradition is much closer to the European world than the Seljuk/Ottoman blend of nomadic barbarism and Sunnism.
Just pick a book and see how armenians joined Türks and moved west plus alongside with Circassians they joined Türks and established Memlüks in Levant region :D Plus check out armeno-kypchak language ;)

[Mortimer]

i think similar

[MfA_]

I think non of the Armenians or Turks here would care about being white and neither should you..

[DarkSecret]

No we are wanna-be whites ... We should work with Armenians to be accepted as whites in American Senate.. Turkish and Armenian Lobbies should cooperate...

[orangepulp]

I think non of the Armenians or Turks here would care about being white and neither should you..

The guy is obsessed with Armenians and he posted his ethnicity as Greek. I think he is an Armenian fake Greek.

[MfA_]

The guy is obsessed with Armenians and he posted his ethnicity as Greek. I think he is an Armenian fake Greek.

Could be so, could be not.. I'd take Gregor or Armenian Bishop as references and they don't give me wannabe Euro/selfhate vibe.. This guy could be a part Armenian living welfare in the West so that would explain his OWD..

[Mehmet]

You are looking from religion perspective. Europe is today mostly atheist... You don't consider history or geography or politics. Why do study politics anyway you must study religion and become and imam in Vatican pray for 5 time in Vatican...:D Then you will be a muslimified catholic turkified french colombian...

Wrong. Not Atheist. Atheism is typical of Communism. It doesn't have a neutral stance on religion, it's anti-religion.
Most Europeans are actually not religious; but they all nominally have religion.
Religion lives as culture and identity, and it's still there.

Otherwise EU would have been Soviet Union which isn't the case.

[Rambo07]

Another troll thread lol.
Turks are very diverse, and many have a turanid influence. Aegean Turks and those around the Black sea are the most "European " looking. Armenians are more uniform in their looks compared to Turks.
Honestly though none of them are white , that term is for Europeans only. If your talking about skin tone. both of them more or less have the same skin tone on average.

[Sikeliot]

It depends. Turks on the west coast and in Istanbul tend to be very European looking due to higher influence from Greece and the rest of the Balkans, but in many parts of Turkey where you see Turanid influence, people start to look almost like some Mexican castizo types.. Also, some Turks look Iranid influenced as well.

Armenians are more uniform, but as a group they might be able to pass a bit better.

[Maleficent]

Anatolian Turks are genetically more Mongoloid, although it isn't that much. It honestly seems like Armenians are much more full Caucasoid. But the two ethnicities still manage to be indistinguishable from each other on PCA plots as exampled by OrangePulp's post. This is ironic of many ethnicities that hate each other and have a history of conflict: Turks and Armenians, Jews and Palestinians, Serbs and Bosnians......they all turn out to be pretty much the exact same ethnicity on DNA tests.:....

[Black Wolf]

Armenian Power!

[DarkSecret]

Armenian Power!

:picard1:

[Mehmet]

Turks and Armenians are very different groups.
Armenians are closer to Kurds and Iranics.
Armenians are fully Caucasian actually.

Turks aren't (10-15% Mongoloid).
So Armenians would be more European, more Europoid.

We are a lot more handsome guys than Armenians though. Armenians are majority ugly people.
Turks are majority decent looking people.

So being 'more Caucasian' doesn't mean everything.

An example:
Italians are more Caucasian than Finns or Russians (minor Mongoloid admixture too).
But everyone would consider Finns or Russians more European than Italians.

[Black Wolf]

Anatolian Turks are genetically more Mongoloid, although it isn't that much. It honestly seems like Armenians are much more full Caucasoid. But the two ethnicities still manage to be indistinguishable from each other on PCA plots as exampled by OrangePulp's post. This is ironic of many ethnicities that hate each other and have a history of conflict: Turks and Armenians, Jews and Palestinians, Serbs and Bosnians......they all turn out to be pretty much the exact same ethnicity on DNA tests.:....

That is correct. Turks and Armenians are very similar genetically overall. The only difference is that Turks happen to have some minor Siberian/North Eurasian that came from Turkic ancestors that Armenians appear to lack. What this shows is that both Turks and Armenians are overwhelmingly descended from the indigenous pre-Turkic and pre-Indo-European peoples of Anatolia and the Northern part of Near East.

[Maleficent]

That is correct. Turks and Armenians are very similar genetically overall. The only difference is that Turks happen to have some minor Siberian/North Eurasian that came from Turkic ancestors that Armenians appear to lack. What this shows is that both Turks and Armenians are overwhelmingly descended from the indigenous pre-Turkic and pre-Indo-European peoples of Anatolia and the Northern part of Near East.

Yes, minus the Mongoloid they are pretty much an ancient Anatolian with a little Caucasus and Mesopotamian people.

[Übermensch]

They BOTH are whiter skinned than Iberians, more robust, hairy and more black haired altough more light and mixed eyed (around 20% of Turks got green or hazel eyes, if you add blue-grey eyes around 28% is light eyed), altough they have longer and narrower noses than spaniards,more often convex and hooked,wider and shorter heads, often with flattened occipital bone,wider face,jaw and forehead, higher auricular height.
Armenians and Turkish are very similar to eachother, just like Spanish and Portouguese.

[Mehmet]

You don't make sense.
The 10-15% Mongoloid in Turks don't come from people who were full-blood Mongoloid who mixed out with local Anatolian or Armenian people.

Telling Turks 'you are similar to Armenians' is an insult.

There is no logical, scientifical, phenotypical ground either.

Turks massively immigrated from Central Asia 1000 years ago.
And considering Turkmenistan has similar rates, or just a few points more (20%) of Mongoloid blood than Turkey, Mongol invasion-influenced Uzbekistan isn't 100% Mongoloid but 35-40%; it's just stupid to pretend Turks are similar to Armenians.

Turks brought most of their Caucasian blood from Central Asia too (Scythians, ..).


The idea of being negroid is better than being Armenian for most Turks.

The Greek OP is a provocation :) He has good fun now.

[Black Wolf]

They BOTH are whiter skinned than Iberians, more robust, hairy and more black haired altough more light and mixed eyed (around 20% of Turks got green or hazel eyes, if you add blue-grey eyes around 28% is light eyed), altough they have longer and narrower noses than spaniards,more often convex and hooked,wider and shorter heads, often with flattened occipital bone,wider face,jaw and forehead, higher auricular height.
Armenians and Turkish are very similar to eachother, just like Spanish and Portouguese.

That is actually a pretty good physical description of the majority of both Turks and Armenians. There are many Armenoids among both. Sloping foreheads are also common among Armenoids.

[TBZA]

For me Turks look more European than Armenians, not sure but to me Armenians give me a Middle Eastern vibe, they have very thick eyebrows, most of the time its a unibrow, their nose, their overall image i would associate them with other Middle Eastern people.

Turks on the other hand can look European or even European admixed which is why they can look like Latin American castizos, whereas Armenians have their own special looks, im sure many would get called 'Arabes' in Latin America. Its hard to explain but I vote for Turks.

PS. I know Turkey is a Middle Eastern nation

[Sikeliot]

Turks often look like castizos from Latin America due to the Turanid influence on top of more Med.

[Baluarte]

An example:
Italians are more Caucasian than Finns or Russians (minor Mongoloid admixture too).
But everyone would consider Finns or Russians more European than Italians.

I certainly dont. And I know a fair share of people who share my position.

[Mehmet]

Turks often look like castizos from Latin America due to the Turanid influence on top of more Med.

True. Could look similar. The Mongoloid-Caucasoid ratio isn't that much different.

Just as how a good chunck of Sicilians, or overall Southern Europeans, would pass as native North Africans.

[orangepulp]

You don't make sense.
The 10-15% Mongoloid in Turks don't come from people who were full-blood Mongoloid who mixed out with local Anatolian or Armenian people.

Telling Turks 'you are similar to Armenians' is an insult.

There is no logical, scientifical, phenotypical ground either.

Turks massively immigrated from Central Asia 1000 years ago.
And considering Turkmenistan has similar rates, or just a few points more (20%) of Mongoloid blood than Turkey, Mongol invasion-influenced Uzbekistan isn't 100% Mongoloid but 35-40%; it's just stupid to pretend Turks are similar to Armenians.


The idea of being negroid is better than being Armenian for most Turks.

The Greek OP is a provocation :) He has good fun now.

This is a very ignorant post. I don't find it insulting being of any race. Genetic tests and PCA plots prove that Anatolian Turks are a mix of local, European and Central Asian elements. Anatolian Turks cluster closer with other West Asians than Central Asians which proves the dominating part to be West Asian. Also we don't know to what percentage mongoloid the Turks were when they came to Anatolia. So we can't compare todays central Asians with central Asians of 500 years back.

The average mongoloid score for Turks is 5-7% and some Turks like from the North East score 0-2% Asian. Western and central Turks can be 7- 15% Asian.

[Mehmet]

This is a very ignorant post. I don't find it insulting being of any race. Genetic tests and PCA plots prove that Anatolian Turks are a mix of local, European and Central Asian elements. Anatolian Turks cluster closer with other West Asians than Central Asians which proves the dominating part to be West Asian. Also we don't know to what percentage mongoloid the Turks were when they came to Anatolia. So we can't compare todays central Asians with central Asians of 500 years back.

The average mongoloid score for Turks is 5-7% and some Turks like from the North East score 0-2% Asian. Western and central Turks can be 7- 15% Asian.

I think your Eastern Anatolian heritage (Erzurum being an old Armenian city) makes you write this post.
I'm sorry but what you tell is far from being the reality.

You refer to Laz-Georgian people and tell 'North-East Turks have only 0-2% Mongoloid'.
How much do the South-East Turks (or Kurds) have then?

Here's the map with east Asian admixture - not only the map of east-asian admixture but also the map showing where ethnic Turks live in Turkey (West of Trabzon-Adana line)
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-admixture.gif

By simple logic, and by comparing with Mongoloid rates in Central Asia (Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan primarily); you can easily infer that the majority part of the Caucasian in the Turk also comes from Central Asia.
People used to think Turkmenistan was 90% Mongoloid, hence Anatolian Turks were considered 'Islamized Greeks and Armenians'; the genetics enlightened the unknown.

Turks are very distinct from both Armenoids and Greeks.

[Kiyant]

To be true the seljuks were also 20-30% caucasian when they came to Anatolia.....

[Mehmet]

To be true the seljuks were also 20-30% caucasian when they came to Anatolia.....

Proof?

[Kiyant]

Proof?

Oghuz Turks were south Turkics so i imagine that they werent 100% mongoloid just like how the göktürks were also not 100% mongoloid.

[Black Wolf]

The Turks Turkic ancestors which make up a minority of their overall genetic inheritance came from Central Asia. They were already a mixed Caucasoid/Mongoloid people when they arrived in Anatolia.

[Mehmet]

Oghuz Turks were south Turkics so i imagine that they werent 100% mongoloid just like how the göktürks were also not 100% mongoloid.

You pretend Seljuks were 30% Caucasoid at most.
That means that modern day Turkmens and Uzbeks have turned more Caucasoid than what they were 1000 years ago.
Considering the population movements, like the Genghis invasion, that's pretty much impossible.
Kazakhs are pure Turks then? And closest to ancient Seljuks?

[Mehmet]

The Turks Turkic ancestors which make up a minority of their overall genetic inheritance came from Central Asia. They were already a mixed Caucasoid/Mongoloid people when they arrived in Anatolia.

How can you tell it's minority, when Turkey and Turkmenistan have so similar rates?

[Black Wolf]

How can you tell it's minority, when Turkey and Turkmenistan have so similar rates?

People from Turmenistan have larger amounts of Mongoloid DNA than Turks from Turkey do.

[orangepulp]

I think your Eastern Anatolian heritage (Erzurum being an old Armenian city) makes you write this post.
I'm sorry but what you tell is far from being the reality.

You refer to Laz-Georgian people and tell 'North-East Turks have only 0-2% Mongoloid'.
How much do the South-East Turks (or Kurds) have then?

Here's the map with east Asian admixture - not only the map of east-asian admixture but also the map showing where ethnic Turks live in Turkey (West of Trabzon-Adana line)
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/East-Asian-admixture.gif

By simple logic, and by comparing with Mongoloid rates in Central Asia (Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan primarily); you can easily infer that the majority part of the Caucasian in the Turk also comes from Central Asia.
People used to think Turkmenistan was 90% Mongoloid, hence Anatolian Turks were considered 'Islamized Greeks and Armenians'; the genetics enlightened the unknown.

Turks are very distinct from both Armenoids and Greeks.

North Eastern Turks do score very little or no Asian, we have many North Eastern samples from Turkey and they all exhibit low Asian scores.

Kurds score 0-2% Asian

The map shows that Eastern Turkey is 1-2.5% Asian which is consistent with what I said about north eastern Turkey. I also did point out that central and Western Turkey have higher Asian scores again my word is consistent with the map. But PCA plots show Turks with less Asian closer to Armenians and Turks with higher Asian scores closer to Persians, another West Asian population. Balkan Turks are closer to Greeks.

I never claimed Turkmen's were 90% mongoloid but I don't think they had insignificant mongoloid.
If what you said was true, why don't Anatolian Turks cluster with other Central Asians in PCA maps? Why are they closer to other West Asians?

[Mehmet]

People from Turmenistan have larger amounts of Mongoloid DNA than Turks from Turkey do.

5-8% more. That's not much larger.
And consider the fact they have also been influenced by Mongol invasion at some extent.



I never claimed Turkmen's were 90% mongoloid but I don't think they had insignificant mongoloid.
If what you said was true, why don't Anatolian Turks cluster with other Central Asians in PCA maps? Why are they closer to other West Asians?

Central Asia's racial structure deeply changed in the 13th century Mongol invasion and genocides.
Turkmens have been the least to be influenced.

After the Seljuk immigration, the second and last big immigration from Central Asia to Anatolia took place at Genghis Khan times.
Turks fled. Mongols repopulated; they got culturally and religiously Turkicized.
That's all.

[Kiyant]

You pretend Seljuks were 30% Caucasoid at most.
That means that modern day Turkmens and Uzbeks have turned more Caucasoid than what they were 1000 years ago.
Considering the population movements, like the Genghis invasion, that's pretty much impossible.
Kazakhs are pure Turks then? And closest to ancient Seljuks?

nope Kazakhs are not "pure" Turkics but i dont think Turkey Turks are mirror images of the old seljuks or göktürks.
Also Turkics were always a mix of caucasian and mongoloid but i think the mongoloid part is and was bigger then the caucasoid part.

[Anatolian Eagle]

http://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/a/image/1364/93/1364933038623.jpg

[StonyArabia]

Turks are lighter and more European looking than Armenians. Although genetically majority of Turks seem to be genetically close to Armenians just with added European and Central Asian/Siberian admixture.

[Mehmet]

Turks are lighter and more European looking than Armenians. Although genetically majority of Turks seem to be genetically close to Armenians just with added European and Central Asian/Siberian admixture.

The same genes (J, G etc..) are also found in Turkmenistan; in fact even as far as Western China (Uyghur people).
What people meant here was that a good chunk of Turks are simply Turkified Armenians.
That's impossible.
Not even considerable admixture happened with them except some Eastern Anatolian zones.

Turks don't look European, but not Kim Kardashian either.

[StonyArabia]

The same genes (J, G etc..) are also found in Turkmenistan; in fact even as far as Western China (Uyghur people).
What people meant here was that a good chunk of Turks are simply Turkified Armenians.
That's impossible.

Look those are just Y-DNA or mtDNA they only give you the direct paternal ancestor and nothing more. However the autosmal DNA is different because it show case all your ancestors or the people who shaped you genetically. Yes the majority of Turks seem to be Turkified local Anatolians with some Central Asian and European influence. This is based on genetics. Armenians are an Anatolian population, and other Anatolian ethnic groups were similar to them, and when they adopted the Turkic language and some cultural elements they were indeed Turkfied.

[Musso]

As much as I hate the question "who is whiter" and "who is more European" I will try to give a reasonable answer.

If the question is which group is more "white-skinned" on average, that's a difficult one to answer because Turks are much more diverse in terms of phenotype. From blonde Turks to afro-turks, Turks have a greater diversity in phenotype than Armenians. If we average all Turks, and average all Armenians, the phenotype would be pretty close to one another.

As for 'European'. Neither. Neither Turks nor Armenians are European in my view, so that question is null.

[Hayalet]

From blonde Turks to afro-turks, Turks have a greater diversity in phenotype than Armenians.

You have to compare ethnic Armenians with ethnic Turks to see which one is more diverse. "Afro-Turks" are not ethnic Turks.

[unclebernanke]

who gives a fuck????????

[meralodem]

That is correct. Turks and Armenians are very similar genetically overall. The only difference is that Turks happen to have some minor Siberian/North Eurasian that came from Turkic ancestors that Armenians appear to lack. What this shows is that both Turks and Armenians are overwhelmingly descended from the indigenous pre-Turkic and pre-Indo-European peoples of Anatolia and the Northern part of Near East.

My parents have the eyes to differentiate armenians instantly, I am more focused on skull shapes. I guess this video is the best example, forget about the whiteness of guys just check out their skull types in this video, the taller guy is armenian the other one is türk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt3xUXmnelg

[meralodem]

Central Asia's racial structure deeply changed in the 13th century Mongol invasion and genocides.
Turkmens have been the least to be influenced.

After the Seljuk immigration, the second and last big immigration from Central Asia to Anatolia took place at Genghis Khan times.
Turks fled. Mongols repopulated; they got culturally and religiously Turkicized.
That's all.

Exactly but somehow it is too hard to get it for some!

[meralodem]

The same genes (J, G etc..) are also found in Turkmenistan; in fact even as far as Western China (Uyghur people).
What people meant here was that a good chunk of Turks are simply Turkified Armenians.
That's impossible.
Not even considerable admixture happened with them except some Eastern Anatolian zones.

Turks don't look European, but not Kim Kardashian either.
I love You

[Shah-Jehan]

I love You

Extremely disturbing...

[anan zaa xd]

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2012/10/globe13-calculator.html
Spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGR2ZWRoQ0VaWTc0dlV1cHh4ZUNJR UE&pli=1#gid=24)

Turks vs Armenians




Turks
Turkish_Aydin
Turkish_Istanbul
Turkish_Kayseri
Turkish_D
Armenian_D
Armenians
Armenians_15


North_European
8
13.1
8.2
7.9
8.3
1.1
1.5
1


Mediterranean
26.7
28.2
26.8
28
28.5
29.2
29.1
27.8


Siberian
4.6
8.5
3.3
4
3.6
0
0
0


East_Asian
2
3.4
3.1
2.1
1.7
0
0
0


Amerindian
0.3
0.1
0.1
0.2
0
0
0
0


Arctic
0.9
0.3
0.7
0.6
0.4
0.1
0.1
0.3


West_Asian
39.7
32
42
39.4
40.1
48.5
50.6
49


Southwest_Asian
16.2
14
14.9
16.4
16.2
20.6
18.5
20.6


South_Asian
1.5
0
0.6
1.1
0.7
0.2
0
0.9


Australasian
0.1
0.4
0.3
0.3
0.4
0.3
0.2
0.4


West_African
0
0.1
0
0
0
0
0
0


Palaeo_African
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0


East_African
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0




http://i46.tinypic.com/1z56mi8.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ztxlQ68e19Q/TnC0Z0rW6bI/AAAAAAAAEHc/MQny_v-ygqQ/s1600/pca-caucasus.png

[Trun]

By such logic a Christian Armenian is more European to you than a Muslim Bosnian or a Muslim Albanian.
Btw, Christianity is a Middle Eastern religion if anything original Christianity is closer to Islam than todays so called cultural Christians. And Ottomans were Muslims. Before any nation accepted christianity or Islam they were all known as Barbarians. Before Christianity was accepted by Europeans they were also known to be barbaric.

Borders between Europe and the Middle East are mostly set by the Christianity/Islam division.

[anan zaa xd]

***People need to keep in mind that Oghuz Turks who conquered Anatolia in 11th century were a mix of West Asian, East Eurasian (aka Mongoloid) and North European components. They were far from being 100% mongoloids, not even the "Mongols" are 100% Mongoloids.

[anan zaa xd]

Doug Mcdonald's choromosome painting

Turk
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/2239/48xc.png




Armenian
http://s1311.hizliresim.com/1h/s/uu8uv.png




The difference is clear.

[Musso]

Here's an interesting article: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/are-turks-acculturated-armenians/#.UpEuT8R7gb0

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/12/turk.jpeg

[anan zaa xd]

Here's an interesting article: http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/are-turks-acculturated-armenians/#.UpEuT8R7gb0

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/files/2010/12/turk.jpeg

Should we take that seriosly? I mean, the guy is just a random idiot commenting on a study.

How can Anatolian Turks be "acculturated Armenians" anyway? Most of the Turkish population is concentrated in Central and Western Turkey. You must be really dumb to believe that bullshit.

The original definition of Anatolia, overwhelming majority of ethnic Turks live here.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/AnatolieLimits.jpg





What if i say Armenians are acculturated Assyrians? It would be much more rational.

http://i46.tinypic.com/1z56mi8.jpg

[Elms]

Both groups probably have an equal amount of light and dark skinned people.

[anan zaa xd]

Armenians are a mix of Southern Caucasian and Mesopotamian elements. On the other hand Turks are descendants of Oghuz Turks and native Anatolians (not Armenians, they were not even "Anatolians" to begin with).

See the table

Turks have;
more Northern European
more East Eurasian (Siberian, East_Asian etc)

Armenians have;
more West Asian
more Southwest Asian


Turks vs Armenians




Turks
Turkish_Aydin
Turkish_Istanbul
Turkish_Kayseri
Turkish_D
Armenian_D
Armenians
Armenians_15


North_European
8
13.1
8.2
7.9
8.3
1.1
1.5
1


Mediterranean
26.7
28.2
26.8
28
28.5
29.2
29.1
27.8


Siberian
4.6
8.5
3.3
4
3.6
0
0
0


East_Asian
2
3.4
3.1
2.1
1.7
0
0
0


Amerindian
0.3
0.1
0.1
0.2
0
0
0
0


Arctic
0.9
0.3
0.7
0.6
0.4
0.1
0.1
0.3


West_Asian
39.7
32
42
39.4
40.1
48.5
50.6
49


Southwest_Asian
16.2
14
14.9
16.4
16.2
20.6
18.5
20.6


South_Asian
1.5
0
0.6
1.1
0.7
0.2
0
0.9


Australasian
0.1
0.4
0.3
0.3
0.4
0.3
0.2
0.4


West_African
0
0.1
0
0
0
0
0
0


Palaeo_African
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0


East_African
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0






Here's an interesting article:

By your (or his) logic, i can claim that Iranians are acculturated Armenians with some South Central Asian input. What a nonsense.

[archangel]

Yes, minus the Mongoloid they are pretty much an ancient Anatolian with a little Caucasus and Mesopotamian people.

how about Nort Euroasian?i mean Türks originated from there

[Musso]

Armenians are a mix of Southern Caucasian and Mesopotamian elements. On the other hand Turks are descendants of Oghuz Turks and native Anatolians (not Armenians, they were not even "Anatolians" to begin with).

See the table

Turks have;
more Northern European
more East Eurasian (Siberian, East_Asian etc)

Armenians have;
more West Asian
more Southwest Asian




By your (or his) logic, i can claim that Iranians are acculturated Armenians with some South Central Asian input. What a nonsense.

Armenians are native to the Armenian Highlands which encompasses Eastern Anatolia and South Caucasus. It is in the plains of Mount Ararat that the ethnogenesis of Armenians occurred. Our genetics simply reflect the geography of our ancestral homeland and we haven't mixed enough in our history to change that fact. Turks have genetic contributions from a much wide variety of sources, from their Altaic Ancestors to Balkan Turks to Greeks and Kurds that were Turkified.

[Arkadi Agapetos]

Oh and blond Turks are ethnic Turks?

[Maleficent]

Armenian Power!

:picard1:The ghosts of the Armenian Genocide are coming for you!!!:mad:

how about North Euroasian?i mean Türks originated from thereQuestion: Are you proud Anatolian or proud Turk?!:rolleyes:

[anan zaa xd]

Oh and blond Turks are ethnic Turks?

Are Greeks with straight hair ethnic Greeks?

[archangel]

The ghosts of the Armenian Genocide are coming for you!!!:mad:
Question: Are you proud Anatolian or proud Turk?!:rolleyes:

I am not proud to be Anatolian cos I am not lol ethnic Turks came from north and were similar too today's Volga Tatars and chuvashes we are not native to this region,we are northerns

[armenianbodyhair]

Russian Armenians.

[anan zaa xd]

Question: Are you proud Anatolian or proud Turk?!:rolleyes:
There is no such ethnicity as "Anatolian" you silly valley girl. The Turks are a mix of Seljuk-Oghuz Turks and natives of the peninsula. We don't need to have 100% proto-Turkic genome to identify ourselves as Turks.

[meralodem]

Oh and blond Turks are ethnic Turks?

Dark haired greeks are not real greeks?

[meralodem]

The ghosts of the Armenian Genocide are coming for you!!!:mad:
Question: Are you proud Anatolian or proud Turk?!:rolleyes:

Be honest, who offered you money for being dumb?

[Hadouken]

i have seen the word "kurd(s)" too much in this thread

please try to leave us out of this thread

[anan zaa xd]

I am not proud to be Anatolian cos I am not lol ethnic Turks came from north and were similar too today's Volga Tatars and chuvashes we are not native to this region,we are northerns

Judging from this post of yours you are either a dumb or you suck at trolling.

[Rambo07]

Kurds have inhabited Eastern Anatolia for thousands of years, so I think people like to include Kurds to demonstrate a point lol. Though I do agree with what your saying Be.

I was going to say, as a result of the Ottoman Empire, some Turks did mix with people in the Balkans and also the whole Jannisary recruiting led to more variety in European looking phenotypes.

[Arkadi Agapetos]

'''''''

[Arkadi Agapetos]

''''

[Arkadi Agapetos]

I am trying to quote this post: Hayalet;2123336.
It won't work.

Anyways,




So, "Afro-Turks" are not ethnic Turks, but blond Turks are?
You don't seem to contest comparing blond Turks to other ethnic groups, yet you distanced yourself from "Afro-Turks" so readily.

[Maleficent]

I am not proud to be Anatolian cos I am not lol ethnic Turks came from north and were similar too today's Volga Tatars and chuvashes we are not native to this region,we are northernsYou should get tested to see if your claims match up.:rolleyes:

There is no such ethnicity as "Anatolian" you silly valley girl. The Turks are a mix of Seljuk-Oghuz Turks and natives of the peninsula. We don't need to have 100% proto-Turkic genome to identify ourselves as Turks.
First of all, I'm not some dumb shit Californian, so don't call me a silly valley girl. I'm even worse of a nightmare for you than that, I'm a redneck Texan, so don't piss me off.

Second of all, I can't take the rest of your post seriously claiming who and what you and your people are as Turks when you've got "Meta-Ethnicity: Semitic Ethnicity: Greek" in your profile.

And I wasn't talking about being 100% Turkic at all but 100% Anatolian, which you guys are much closer to.

Be honest, who offered you money for being dumb?
Absolutely no one offered me any money or to be dumb. I have nothing against the people of Turkey, really. I think you guys are great people and an interesting culture. But the truth is, atrocities were done in the Ottoman Empire(and beyond), and it's just highlighting a fact to say you guys are culturally Turkic, but not so much Turkic as an ethnicity.

Judging from this post of yours you are either a dumb or you suck at trolling.
He's a well-known troll.

[Hayalet]

So, "Afro-Turks" are not ethnic Turks, but blond Turks are?
Yes.


You don't seem to contest comparing blond Turks to other ethnic groups, yet you distanced yourself from "Afro-Turks" so readily.
What the hell does that even mean? Blondism is variation among Caucasoids. A blond person can have swarthy parents or siblings. Same goes for eye color, hair shape or height. On the other hand, (SS)Africans are one of the major divison/race/population of the humankind. A SSA couple will not have a non-SSA kid, nor the other way around. Try again.

[Baluarte]

I'm pretty sure that if the Turks could do it, they'd brutally occupy some Subsaharan country and after a couple of generations, brainwash the native population into thinking they're Turks and identifying with Central Asian barbarism. Just a matter of capacity, not conviction.

[Rambo07]

Being Turk is more of a cultural designation rather than a racial one IMO.

[Hayalet]

Being Turk is more of a cultural designation rather than a racial one IMO.
Same goes for nearly all ethnic groups.

[Elms]

Kurds have inhabited Eastern Anatolia for thousands of years, so I think people like to include Kurds to demonstrate a point lol. Though I do agree with what your saying Be.

I was going to say, as a result of the Ottoman Empire, some Turks did mix with people in the Balkans and also the whole Jannisary recruiting led to more variety in European looking phenotypes.

No they haven't. Armenians and Assyrians have inhabited Eastern Anatolia for thousands of years.

[YeshAtid]

Same goes for nearly all ethnic groups.

Some have a cohesive genetic makeup

[Musso]

No they haven't. Armenians and Assyrians have inhabited Eastern Anatolia for thousands of years.

Kurdish migrated over the centuries more North and now inhabit in the Western part of the Armenian Homeland thanks to Turkish cleansings and massacres of the Armenians that made it possible for Kurds to dominate the region.

[Rambo07]

No they haven't. Armenians and Assyrians have inhabited Eastern Anatolia for thousands of years.

Kurds are descended of Medes and Hurrians, but most were Aryanized Hurrians , just like the Mittani wore. Assyrians were centered more in Northern Mesopotamia. Both Armenians and Anatolian did share some common Hurrian ancestry in antiquity before the arrival of new bands of Indo Europeans in the early Iron age. Both Armenian and some Kurdish dialects show a Hurrian substratum.

[Rambo07]

Kurdish migrated over the centuries more North and now inhabit in the Western part of the Armenian Homeland thanks to Turkish cleansings and massacres of the Armenians that made it possible for Kurds to dominate the region.

Yes your right, especially in the last 200 years, but there was always a localized Kurdish population.

[Elms]

Kurdish migrated over the centuries more North and now inhabit in the Western part of the Armenian Homeland thanks to Turkish cleansings and massacres of the Armenians that made it possible for Kurds to dominate the region.

Yeah, Armenians inhabited the entire area north of lake Van and Assyrians below. Don't forget about the major Kurdish cleansing. They assassinated the head Assyrian Patriarch...

[Elms]

Kurds are descended of Medes and Hurrians, but most were Aryanized Hurrians , just like the Mittani wore. Assyrians were centered more in Northern Mesopotamia. Both Armenians and Anatolian did share some common Hurrian ancestry in antiquity before the arrival of new bands of Indo Europeans in the early Iron age. Both Armenian and some Kurdish dialects show a Hurrian substratum.

Kurds are mostly Iranic and come from the Zagros mountain area. The only ones that are native are the ones that are a result of kidnapped Armenian and Assyrian women and children.

Those cities all used to have Armenian and Assyrian names. And Assyrians were that far north. Urmia is a northern Assyrian city located in Iran.

[Hayalet]

Some have a cohesive genetic makeup
Turks have a cohesive genetic makeup. In autosomal DNA plots, you don't see Turkish samples all over the place. They cluster together like other ethnic groups.

[Rambo07]

Yes Kurds are Iranic speaking and Medes arrived via Northern Iran, but many Kurds are actually Hurrians who were subjugated by Medes to form the Kurdish ethnic group, another group were Proto Armenians who arrived before the Medes and intermingled with Hurrians in the Van area to form today's Armenians. The word is still used to apply to Armenians still. The fact you have a strong Hurrian substrate in both Armenian and Kurdish affirms this fact, as Hurrians were native to Anatolia. Another fact is both Kurdish and Armenian are both highly agglutinative languages, which is a major surviving feature of Hurrian.

[Arkadi Agapetos]

Old Photos of Armenians

http://i40.tinypic.com/2rctxu1.jpghttp://i39.tinypic.com/2qntcec.jpghttp://i44.tinypic.com/2v3opro.jpg

[Elms]

Yes Kurds are Iranic speaking and Medes arrived via Northern Iran, but many Kurds are actually Hurrians who were subjugated by Medes to form the Kurdish ethnic group, another group were Proto Armenians who arrived before the Medes and intermingled with Hurrians in the Van area to form today's Armenians. The word is still used to apply to Armenians still. The fact you have a strong Hurrian substrate in both Armenian and Kurdish affirms this fact, as Hurrians were native to Anatolia. Another fact is both Kurdish and Armenian are both highly agglutinative languages, which is a major surviving feature of Hurrian.

Is there any proof of this? I'm pretty sure Kurdish comes from, or is at least partially descended from the southwest Iranic family, but I could be wrong.

[Arkadi Agapetos]

http://i42.tinypic.com/k1tiqw.jpg


Armenian Lady from Jerusalem
http://i42.tinypic.com/aw8fmu.jpg


Armenian Lady from Nukhi
http://i39.tinypic.com/1zfrgpk.jpg

[Carlito's Way]

Turks look whiter, even i would fit much better with Turks than Armenians

[Arkadi Agapetos]

http://i44.tinypic.com/xmu2d2.jpghttp://i44.tinypic.com/21j4qyp.jpghttp://i42.tinypic.com/5lneoh.jpg

[Arkadi Agapetos]

Turks look whiter, even i would fit much better with Turks than Armenians

What do you look like?

[Rambo07]

Kurdish is North west Iranic family, but thats not the point. My point is Hurrians predate both Armenians and Kurds in Eastern Anatolia, one group of Hurrians were subjugated by Aryan Medes to form proto-Kurds which led to today's Kurds ( During the early Iron Age/late Bronze Age). Another group of Hurrians were subjugated by Aryan proto Armenians and this gave rise to today's Armenians. Before the arrival of Christianity and Islam the enmity which exists today between Kurds and Armenians did not exist then.

[Carlito's Way]

What do you look like?

i look like med, i can pass in spain, italy and turkey, i was told

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

i look like med, i can pass in spain, italy and turkey, i was told

Yeah you can pass in Spain and Italy your motherland Of course, I think you can pass in turkey also why not, I have seen some from Turkey who can look like you.

[Elms]

Kurdish is North west Iranic family, but thats not the point. My point is Hurrians predate both Armenians and Kurds in Eastern Anatolia, one group of Hurrians were subjugated by Aryan Medes to form proto-Kurds which led to today's Kurds ( During the early Iron Age/late Bronze Age). Another group of Hurrians were subjugated by Aryan proto Armenians and this gave rise to today's Armenians. Before the arrival of Christianity and Islam the enmity which exists today between Kurds and Armenians did not exist then.

You have no sources to back any of this up besides Kurdish being a northwest Iranic language.

Armenians used to speak Urartian which is the only other language related to Hurrian. We have been there forever and there is no such thing as "proto-Kurds". Hurrians are the ancestors to Assyrians and Armenians more so than Kurds. Hurrians were absorbed by Subarians which is an ancient name for Assyrians.


By the thirteenth century BCE all of the Hurrian states had been vanquished by other peoples. The heart of the Hurrian lands, the Khabur river valley, became an Assyrian province. It is not clear what happened to the Hurrian people at the end of the Bronze Age. Some scholars have suggested that Hurrians lived on in the country of Subartu north of Assyria during the early Iron Age. The Hurrian population of Syria in the following centuries seems to have given up their language in favor of the Assyrian dialect of Akkadian or, more likely, Aramaic. This was around the same time that an aristocracy speaking Urartian, similar to old Hurrian, seems to have first imposed itself on the population around Lake Van, and formed the Kingdom of Urartu.


The land of Subartu (Akkadian Šubartum/Subartum/ina Šú-ba-ri, Assyrian mât Šubarri) or Subar (Sumerian Su-bir4/Subar/Šubur) is mentioned in Bronze Age literature. The name also appears as Subari in the Amarna letters, and, in the form Šbr, in Ugarit.
Subartu was apparently a polity in Northern Mesopotamia, at the upper Tigris. Most scholars accept Subartu as an early name for Assyria proper on the Tigris, although there are various other theories placing it sometimes a little farther to the east, north or west of there. Its precise location has not been identified. From the point of view of the Akkadian Empire, Subartu marked the northern geographical horizon, just as Martu, Elam and Sumer marked "west", "east" and "south", respectively.


Urartu (Armenian: Ուրարտու - Urartu, Assyrian: māt Urarṭu;[9] Babylonian: Urashtu), corresponding to the biblical Kingdom of Ararat (Armenian: Արարատյան Թագավորություն) or Kingdom of Van (Armenian: Վանի Թագավորություն, Urartian: Biai, Biainili;[10]) was an Iron Age kingdom centred around Lake Van in the Armenian Highlands.

[Carlito's Way]

Yeah you can pass in Spain and Italy your motherland Of course, I think you can pass in turkey also why not, I have seen some from Turkey who can look like you.

ive seen turks online who look very european, yet i have never seen an Armenian
what is your take on this? who is more european looking, armenians or turks?

[Arkadi Agapetos]

i look like med, i can pass in spain, italy and turkey, i was told

Consider posting a photo of you. I will be the judge of whether you can pass in Turkey or not. ;)

As for Spanish, you could if that's where your heritage is from. Are you a Latin-American with Spanish heritage?

[Arkadi Agapetos]

ive seen turks online who look very european, yet i have never seen an Armenian
what is your take on this?

Really? You've never seen Armenians who look European? Yet you find Turks more European?

Ask some Armenian users to post photos of European looking Armenians. I am sure they can provide you with a few. ;)

[Carlito's Way]

Consider posting a photo of you. I will be the judge of whether you can pass in Turkey or not. ;)

As for Spanish, you could if that's where your heritage is from. Are you a Latin-American with Spanish heritage?

i can pass in Turkey because many Turks can look European or be similar to me
yes i am Latin American, my ancestry is mostly Italian

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

ive seen turks online who look very european, yet i have never seen an Armenian
what is your take on this? who is more european looking, armenians or turks?

The turks on average are mostly european, both looks and racially(genetically), the Armenians to me look more Middle eastern then anything.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

The Armenians that I have seen in the U.S. most look Middle eastern Semitic than European.

[Arkadi Agapetos]

The Armenians that I have seen in the U.S. most look Middle eastern Semitic than European.

Fair enough.

[Arkadi Agapetos]

Modern day Armenians from the Republic of Armenia:
http://i44.tinypic.com/28mgqw7.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/16azeqr.jpg

They look more Georgian than anything, if you ask me.

[Musso]

Some Armenians:

http://sport.news.am/static/news/b/2013/07/26343.jpg

http://media.pn.am/media/set/5/309/big_a5de8a5b0.jpg

http://media.pn.am/media/set/5/298/big_7438845b5.jpg

http://media.pn.am/media/set/5/274/big_d0dde6436.jpg

http://media.pn.am/media/set/5/241/big_70e3af92f.jpg

***Note: with these photos I'm just showing some phenotypes of Armenians, not trying to "prove" anything***

[Rambo07]

You have no sources to back any of this up besides Kurdish being a northwest Iranic language.

Armenians used to speak Urartian which is the only other language related to Hurrian. We have been there forever and there is no such thing as "proto-Kurds". Hurrians are the ancestors to Assyrians and Armenians more so than Kurds. Hurrians were absorbed by Subarians which is an ancient name for Assyrians.

LOOOOOL
Assyrians are Semitic/Afro Asiatic peoples related to other Semitic peoples in Babylon. Assyrians have no relation to Armenians besides being Christians. Its quite obvious you have a serious bias/hatred against Turks and Kurds but the facts are facts. Any linguistics major can tell you both and Faerie who is more well versed with genetics can tell you genetically a lot of Kurds are no different than the people who were living in the area thousands of years ago. Eastern Anatolia may have gone through cultural changes but the phenotypes and genotypes of a lot of the people in that area remains the same. In essence many of the Kurds you see in Eastern Anatolia are no different from the Hurrians who lived there in antiquity.


I don't need sources because when your saying Hurrians were absorbed culturally to become Assyrian lol, you cannot reason with someone who has blind hatred . Ancient Assyrians were ruthless conquerors who did conquer a lot of Near Eastern cultures but they never did the imbibe linguistically or culturally the places they conquered, which was the case with Indo European invaders in the near East. Another thing Hurrians and Assyrian civilizations were concurrent with each other. Both civilizations collapsed during the Iron Age, but Assyrians were still able to maintain their Semetic identity in comparison to Hurrians who were absorbed by Indo European invaders ( be it Proto Armenian or Iranid Medes (Proto Kurd)

[Arkadi Agapetos]

I think modern day Assyrians may be related to modern day Armenians. Assyrians do speak a Semitic language, in fact it is related to Ancient Hebrew. But genotype-wise some populations of Assyrians seem to be related to Armenians, judging by principle component analyses and other genetic marker tests.

It is said that Eastern Anatolia was mainly Assyrian and Armenian before the Kurds settled there. I don't know how accurate this is though. You can ask Elms for more information about this, he is both Armenian and Assyrian. He would know much more about this.

[Rambo07]

The point was not about the Assyrians, the main point was about the Kurds. Kurdish language has a Hurrian substratum, that in itself ties them to Bronze Age Eastern Anatolia.

[Mehmet]

So much M-E and Med Christian butthurt in this thread.

You are all jaleous of Turks; not only the power, superior culture and proud history...
But you seem to be also envying our racial origines and try to slur by inventing terms like 'Afro-Turks'.

Armenians are not even like Greeks. They would cluster (and genetically do) with Semitic Christians such as Assyrians.
The Turk can be blonde in its very ancient origines, as the Turk has steppe IE ancestors such as Scythians, Tocharians etc.
The Armenian can't be blonde; every single light Armenian are simply assimilated Circassians. And you also have 6-7% ethnic Russians living in Armenia.

The Greek is European, but with important North African admixture.
That's why a good chunck of Greeks don't have straight hair (unlike Turks who have almost all, no exception, straight hair).


The average Turk looks a lot more handsome, decent than the average Sepharadic Armenian or curly hair Greek.
That's a fact.

[Elms]

LOOOOOL
Assyrians are Semitic/Afro Asiatic peoples related to other Semitic peoples in Babylon. Assyrians have no relation to Armenians besides being Christians. Its quite obvious you have a serious bias/hatred against Turks and Kurds but the facts are facts. Any linguistics major can tell you both and Faerie who is more well versed with genetics can tell you genetically a lot of Kurds are no different than the people who were living in the area thousands of years ago. Eastern Anatolia may have gone through cultural changes but the phenotypes and genotypes of a lot of the people in that area remains the same. In essence many of the Kurds you see in Eastern Anatolia are no different from the Hurrians who lived there in antiquity.


I don't need sources because when your saying Hurrians were absorbed culturally to become Assyrian lol, you cannot reason with someone who has blind hatred . Ancient Assyrians were ruthless conquerors who did conquer a lot of Near Eastern cultures but they never did the imbibe linguistically or culturally the places they conquered, which was the case with Indo European invaders in the near East. Another thing Hurrians and Assyrian civilizations were concurrent with each other. Both civilizations collapsed during the Iron Age, but Assyrians were still able to maintain their Semetic identity in comparison to Hurrians who were absorbed by Indo European invaders ( be it Proto Armenian or Iranid Medes (Proto Kurd)

You're obviously a Kurd, so there is no point in arguing with you. You have shown no proof of what you say just like most Kurds don't.

Armenians probably absorbed the Hurrians more so than Assyrians.

I don't hate Turks actually, I don't know how you got that from what I wrote.

I just reread what you wrote, and it is by far one of the dumbest things I have read. For one, Semitic is a language family, are Maltese people somehow closer to Middle Eastern's because they speak a Semitic language? Are black Americans of English descent because they speak English?

Babylon doesn't exist anymore you imbecile.

[Elms]

The point was not about the Assyrians, the main point was about the Kurds. Kurdish language has a Hurrian substratum, that in itself ties them to Bronze Age Eastern Anatolia.

Show me proof of this.

[Rambo07]

I am not a Kurd at all but based of your poor comprehension skills, its safe to gauge you harbour a severe racial hatred towards them , so regardless of what I say , or what even any expert would say you would hold to your own falsified renditions of history. In any case this Thread is about Turks and Armenians so I am not going divulge further.

[Elms]

I am not a Kurd at all but based of your poor comprehension skills, its safe to gauge you harbour a severe racial hatred towards them , so regardless of what I say , or what even any expert would say you would hold to your own falsified renditions of history. In any case this Thread is about Turks and Armenians so I am not going divulge further.

I don't hate Kurds, or any other group for that matter. I dislike that they act is if they are mostly native to the area they now reside. I would prefer them outright saying that they exterminated the natives and took over.

Lol, so I'm somehow supposed to garner something else, even though you spout the same nonsense as some of them. I at least quoted works to back up what I say, you showed nothing. So who here is really giving "falsified renditions" of history.

Good.

[Rambo07]

So much M-E and Med Christian butthurt in this thread.

You are all jaleous of Turks; not only the power, superior culture and proud history...
But you seem to be also envying our racial origines and try to slur by inventing terms like 'Afro-Turks'.

Armenians are not even like Greeks. They would cluster (and genetically do) with Semitic Christians such as Assyrians.
The Turk can be blonde in its very ancient origines, as the Turk has steppe IE ancestors such as Scythians, Tocharians etc.
The Armenian can't be blonde; every single light Armenian are simply assimilated Circassians. And you also have 6-7% ethnic Russians living in Armenia.

The Greek is European, but with important North African admixture.
That's why a good chunck of Greeks don't have straight hair (unlike Turks who have almost all, no exception, straight hair).


The average Turk looks a lot more handsome, decent than the average Sepharadic Armenian or curly hair Greek.
That's a fact.

Turks are diverse , Aegean/Bosphorus Turks cluster with Greeks . The original peoples who habited the Aegean were Ionian Greeks and Mycaeneans(Hellenic)
Yes many Turks are good looking but they are also as many attractive Greeks, looks are subjective. As for Armenians, though they are associated with Armenoids, they also have a lot of Asiatic Alpines, East Med, Pontid types. Armenoids occur through out West Asia.

Anatolian Turks have a mild Turanid influence, in particular this shows up on people in Ankara region. Kenan Amirzogolu has a good balance of pred. med and minor turanid features. For most people that is your stereotypical handsome Turk. All the chicks I know love him .

[Hayalet]

Turks are diverse , Aegean/Bosphorus Turks cluster with Greeks genetically.
No, they don't.

[Rambo07]

You're obviously a Kurd, so there is no point in arguing with you. You have shown no proof of what you say just like most Kurds don't.

Armenians probably absorbed the Hurrians more so than Assyrians.

I don't hate Turks actually, I don't know how you got that from what I wrote.

I just reread what you wrote, and it is by far one of the dumbest things I have read. For one, Semitic is a language family, are Maltese people somehow closer to Middle Eastern's because they speak a Semitic language? Are black Americans of English descent because they speak English?

Babylon doesn't exist anymore you imbecile.

Your the fucking moron, dude. Using useless analogies to mask racist agendas to troll by creating your events of history is out right ridiculous. Obviously Babylon does not exist anymore , I was talking in context of the Bronze Age, but since your reading comprehension skills are at the level of a downsy, I am not surprised you construed it that way. Its quite obvious you have some deep seeded hatred for Kurds/Turks or what other groups for whatever reasons but your ideologies are just waterfed myths passed down by people within your community.

[Elms]

Your the fucking moron, dude. Using useless analogies to mask racist agendas to troll by creating your events of history is out right ridiculous. Obviously Babylon does not exist anymore , I was talking in context of the Bronze Age, but since your reading comprehension skills are at the level of a downsy, I am not surprised you construed it that way. Its quite obvious you have some deep seeded hatred for Kurds/Turks or what other groups for whatever reasons but your ideologies are just waterfed myths passed down by people within your community.

I have no need to troll, I can prove everything I say. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge about the region would know that that area used to be Armenian and Assyrian.

You are an imbecile because you're acting as if a language or language family defines genetics. If Babylonians existed today, then yes I would be genetically similar to them, just like I would if Urartians still existed.

LOL, you want me to say I hate them to justify some delusion of yours. I don't hate anyone, I might dislike portions of an ethnic group, but certainly not a whole group.

Still waiting for your sources.

[LightHouse89]

So much M-E and Med Christian butthurt in this thread.

You are all jaleous of Turks; not only the power, superior culture and proud history...
But you seem to be also envying our racial origines and try to slur by inventing terms like 'Afro-Turks'.

Armenians are not even like Greeks. They would cluster (and genetically do) with Semitic Christians such as Assyrians.
The Turk can be blonde in its very ancient origines, as the Turk has steppe IE ancestors such as Scythians, Tocharians etc.
The Armenian can't be blonde; every single light Armenian are simply assimilated Circassians. And you also have 6-7% ethnic Russians living in Armenia.

The Greek is European, but with important North African admixture.
That's why a good chunck of Greeks don't have straight hair (unlike Turks who have almost all, no exception, straight hair).


The average Turk looks a lot more handsome, decent than the average Sepharadic Armenian or curly hair Greek.
That's a fact.

Turks did blitzkrieg the middle east.

[Musso]

The average Turk looks a lot more handsome, decent than the average Sepharadic Armenian or curly hair Greek.
That's a fact.

:picard1:

ah Turks and their identity issues....they never fail to entertain.

[teodor11]

Kurds are mostly Iranic and come from the Zagros mountain area. The only ones that are native are the ones that are a result of kidnapped Armenian and Assyrian women and children.

Those cities all used to have Armenian and Assyrian names. And Assyrians were that far north. Urmia is a northern Assyrian city located in Iran.


+1

[LightHouse89]

you changed your ancestry to blah?

[DarkSecret]

To end this argument... Let's cheer up!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ll_KbDwD4eE

[portusaus]

Certainly Armenians.

[Maleficent]

I forgot the exact specifics and details of it, but apparently Armenians and Assyrians definitely are very similar people ethnically, culturally, genetically, religiously; regardless of the obvious language difference. Sort of like Lebanese and Palestinian Christians, except there's definitely no language difference between them.

[Elms]

I forgot the exact specifics and details of it, but apparently Armenians and Assyrians definitely are very similar people ethnically, culturally, genetically, religiously; regardless of the obvious language difference. Sort of like Lebanese and Palestinian Christians, except there's definitely no language difference between them.

Armenians and Assyrians were more similar prior to Soviet influence(Armenians) and Arabization/Kurdification policies(Assyrians). Mixed marriages were common in Turkey and Iran before the genocide. Most Assyrians and Armenians in Turkey were either genocided or emigrated. The remaining now largely live in Istanbul as opposed to their ancestral lands.

I'm pretty sure mixed-marriages are still somewhat common in Iran, even though most Assyrians now live in Tehran as opposed to Urmia.

Mixed marriages are commonplace in California, where the people who fled the Middle East largely live and yes, both groups are culturally and genetically similar.

[Bloodsport]

Armenians, and anyone who says otherwise is Turkish or blind.

[gregorius]

Armenians and Assyrians were more similar prior to Soviet influence(Armenians) and Arabization/Kurdification policies(Assyrians). Mixed marriages were common in Turkey and Iran before the genocide. Most Assyrians and Armenians in Turkey were either genocided or emigrated. The remaining now largely live in Istanbul as opposed to their ancestral lands.

I'm pretty sure mixed-marriages are still somewhat common in Iran, even though most Assyrians now live in Tehran as opposed to Urmia.

Mixed marriages are commonplace in California, where the people who fled the Middle East largely live and yes, both groups are culturally and genetically similar.

No we are not, especially culturally we have not that much in common.
I dont know why you keep saying this stuff,

[blogen]

Turks, the only Armenoids in Europe is the Jews (except the rare non Jewish examples), so an Armenian is totally stranger in Europe. But there are lot of Mediterranids, Taurids, Dinarids and even Europo-Mongoloids live in Europe.

[Elms]

No we are not, especially culturally we have not that much in common

I don't know why you are trying to deny there are cultural similarities. The modern cultures of Armenians and Assyrians is not telling of how the two groups were less than 100 years ago.


The mixed Assyro-Armenian marriages are quite high on the percentage scale, this situation being also noted in Iraq and Iran, and in the Diaspora with adjacent Armenian and Assyrian communities . Historically, the Assyrians have always been described as men of gallantry, nearly always siding with the Armenians in rebellious situations. Along with other Christian populations they have been the subject of genocide within the Ottoman Empire and the Arab and Islamic world. The Armenian and the Assyrian nations have always been attached not only by confessional consensus, but rather by many centuries of collaboration and the correlative historical predestination.

The Ethnic Minorities of Armenia, Garnik Asatryan, Victoria Arakelova

That was written by Armenians as seen by the names above.

[StonyArabia]

Turks, the only Armenoids in Europe is the Jews (except the rare non Jewish examples), so an Armenian is totally stranger in Europe. But there are lot of Mediterranids, Taurids, Dinarids and even Europo-Mongoloids live in Europe.

True, although not all Jews are Armenoids some are Arabid as well. Like the German Jew Od Fehr he can pass easily as Bedouin or even as a Yemenite.

[gregorius]

I don't know why you are trying to deny there are cultural similarities. The modern cultures of Armenians and Assyrians is not telling of how the two groups were less than 100 years ago.

As of today we dont have alot in common, and 100 years ago a big group of the armenians lived under the Ottoman rule so there were similarities. The only thing we share is probably the common ottoman kitchen.

as of racially, we are not that close either.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UOHFTxL-bOA/TOOXrHM37WI/AAAAAAAAANc/HZu372rvK-A/s1600/ADMIXTURE15.jpeg

Armenians mix with everyone these days in california so that should not take into account.

[blogen]

True, although not all Jews are Armenoids some are Arabid as well. Like the German Jew Od Fehr he can pass easily as Bedouin or even as a Yemenite.

The Jews are a strongly mixed population, but an Armenoid in Europe is Jew.

[StonyArabia]

The Jews are a strongly mixed population, but an Armenoid in Europe is Jew.

True.

[Elms]

As of today we dont have alot in common, and 100 years ago a big group of the armenians lived under the Ottoman rule so there were similarities. The only thing we share is probably the common ottoman kitchen.

as of racially, we are not that close either.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UOHFTxL-bOA/TOOXrHM37WI/AAAAAAAAANc/HZu372rvK-A/s1600/ADMIXTURE15.jpeg

Armenians mix with everyone these days in california so that should not take into account.

I can't believe you are trying to deny any historical ties that both groups have.

Yet, Armenians and Assyrians are closer to each other on that graph than to any of the other groups around them.

You are in some kind of weird denial.

[gregorius]

I can't believe you are trying to deny any historical ties that both groups have.

Yet, Armenians and Assyrians are closer to each other on that graph than to any of the other groups around them.

You are in some kind of weird denial.

No they are not watch better,

But fine If you want to close yourself to us than im fine with it.

[LightHouse89]

they look like Gringos.

[Elms]

No they are not watch better,

But fine If you want to close yourself to us than im fine with it.

I removed some of the irrelevant groups:

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y442/velum/ADMIXTURE15_zps4d314e01.jpeg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/velum/media/ADMIXTURE15_zps4d314e01.jpeg.html)

The only group on there that Armenians are possibly more similar to than Assyrians are Turks and Georgians.

I'm mixed from both sides of my family so I don't need to be closer to one than the other.

[gregorius]

I removed some of the irrelevant groups:

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y442/velum/ADMIXTURE15_zps4d314e01.jpeg (http://s1275.photobucket.com/user/velum/media/ADMIXTURE15_zps4d314e01.jpeg.html)

The only group on there that Armenians are possibly more similar to than Assyrians are Turks.

I'm mixed so I don't need to be closer to one than the other.

I see cypriots,georgians iranians than assyrians

[Black Wolf]

Turks, the only Armenoids in Europe is the Jews (except the rare non Jewish examples), so an Armenian is totally stranger in Europe. But there are lot of Mediterranids, Taurids, Dinarids and even Europo-Mongoloids live in Europe.

That is not completely true. There are many Southern Italians and probably also some Greeks with Armenoid features.

[StonyArabia]

Jordanians are Northern Bedouins XD. However the majority of Jordanians are Palis thus the sample is probably not accurate.

[Peikko]

If Gregorius is typical Armenian, then Armenians for sure.

[Elms]

I see cypriots,georgians iranians than assyrians

You must be blind to see more similarities with Iranians on that map than Assyrians.

[gregorius]

You must be blind to see more similarities with Iranians on that map than Assyrians.

THey are on par, I see persians closer to us than assyrians to be honest.

[Elms]

THey are on par, I see persians closer to us than assyrians to be honest.

A mixed marriage between an Armenian and Assyrian is a thousand times more likely than one with a Persian. Anyway, there are cultural similarities between all three groups.

I noticed you also put Cyprus which is another wrong.

[gregorius]

A mixed marriage between an Armenian and Assyrian is a thousand times more likely than one with a Persian. Anyway, there are cultural similarities between all three groups.

I noticed you also put Cyprus which is another wrong.


Im quite sure the average assyrian feels more related to a syriac or a christian iraqi than to an Armenian.

[StonyArabia]

Im quite sure the average assyrian feels more related to a syriac or a christian iraqi than to an Armenian.

Iraqi Chrsitians are Assyrians actually. Some Iraqi Christians are of ethnic Arab stock but they belong to the Roman Catholic church and the Greek Orthodox church they descent from the Taghlib tribe.

[Elms]

Im quite sure the average assyrian feels more related to a syriac or a christian iraqi than to an Armenian.

A "Syriac" is an Assyrian, so obviously. Christian Iraqi's are usually Assyrian with a very small amount being Arab or Armenian.

[gregorius]

A "Syriac" is an Assyrian, so obviously. Christian Iraqi's are usually Assyrian with a very small amount being Arab or Armenian.

the syriac member here claims a noticeable difference between Syriacs,Arameans and Assyrians.

Anyway I could take a lebanese as an example aswell

[Elms]

the syriac member here claims a noticeable difference between Syriacs,Arameans and Assyrians.

Anyway I could take a Christian lebanese as an example aswell

I told him he should take a genetics test, but I don't think he will. "Syriac" and "Aramean" aren't even real ethnic groups. It's just like Chaldeans(Catholic Assyrians). We all speak the same language with different dialects and different churches.


The Assyrians, also known as Syriacs, Chaldeans, and Aramaeans (see names of Syriac Christians), are a distinct ethnic group whose origins lie in ancient Mesopotamia. They are Semitic people, who speak and write distinct dialects of Eastern Aramaic exclusive to Mesopotamia and its immediate surroundings.

An Armenian from Lebanon would have more similarities with a Lebanese Christian than an Assyrian would.

[StonyArabia]

the syriac member here claims a noticeable difference between Syriacs,Arameans and Assyrians.

Nope there just different church branches they follow. For example Chaldeans are Catholic Assyrians rather than Nestorians, well the Syriacs some identify as Assyrian and others as Armeans but most of them belong to the Syriac Orthodox church. They also all genetically, culturally, and phenotypically the same people. However some might have sectarian differences that's all.

[LightHouse89]

Iraqi Chrsitians are Assyrians actually. Some Iraqi Christians are of ethnic Arab stock but they belong to the Roman Catholic church and the Greek Orthodox church they descent from the Taghlib tribe.

Their church is very interesting. The Assyrian Church is similar to the Catholic church but still somewhat different. It is a shame they are disappearing because they are the more Orthodox Christians to me [orthodox as in belief system not Orthodox church] I do not want to start a pissing contest with other Christians here though hahahaha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Church_of_the_East

[ZephyrousMandaru]

An Armenian from Lebanon would have more similarities with a Lebanese Christian than an Assyrian would.

Religiously? Maybe. But genetically? I'm not so sure about that, Assyrians are comparatively closer to Levantine Arabs than Armenians are. This is due to our elevated Southwest Asian and Mediterranean admixture, in contras to Armenians who have slightly less and in the case of Armenians from Western Armenia, substantially less.

[Elms]

Religiously? Maybe. But genetically? I'm not so sure about that, Assyrians are comparatively closer to Levantine Arabs than Armenians are. This is due to our elevated Southwest Asian and Mediterranean admixture, in contras to Armenians who have slightly less and in the case of Armenians from Western Armenia, substantially less.

Culturally...

[gregorius]

Religiously? Maybe. But genetically? I'm not so sure about that, Assyrians are comparatively closer to Levantine Arabs than Armenians are. This is due to our elevated Southwest Asian and Mediterranean admixture, in contras to Armenians who have slightly less and in the case of Armenians from Western Armenia, substantially less.

he means culturally

[Szegedist]

Turks are descended from Northern Euroasians, the original White people. so Turks.

[Elms]

Their church is very interesting. The Assyrian Church is similar to the Catholic church but still somewhat different. It is a shame they are disappearing because they are the more Orthodox Christians to me [orthodox as in belief system not Orthodox church] I do not want to start a pissing contest with other Christians here though hahahaha.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_Church_of_the_East

Not trying to go off-topic but the church is mainly different because it believe Jesus Christ had two natures; one human, one divine. It was also the church of Persia at one point.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Nope there just different church branches they follow. For example Chaldeans are Catholic Assyrians rather than Nestorians, well the Syriacs some identify as Assyrian and others as Armeans but most of them belong to the Syriac Orthodox church. They also all genetically, culturally, and phenotypically the same people. However some might have sectarian differences that's all.

This is true, Syriacs, Chaldeans and Nestorians are all Assyrians. Although culturally, I think that Chaldeans are a little more Arabized compared to Nestorian Assyrians. Also, there are some minor genetic dissimilarities that exist between all three church denominations. Nestorians are more "Armenian-like", Chaldeans are in between being "Armenian-like" and "Levantine-like" and Syriacs are more "Levantine-like". The one Assyrian that's plotting in that recent Eurogenes MDS plot is a Syriac I believe, and he's positioned inside of the Levantine cluster.

Similarly, there is also an Armenian cline. Eastern Armenians are closer to Anatolians, Mesopotamians and Levantines, while Western Armenians are closer to Georgians and other Caucasians.

[Elms]

This is true, Syriacs, Chaldeans and Nestorians are all Assyrians. Although culturally, I think that Chaldeans are a little more Arabized compared to Nestorian Assyrians. Also, there are some minor genetic dissimilarities that exist between all three church denominations. Nestorians are more "Armenian-like", Chaldeans are in between being "Armenian-like" and "Levantine-like" and Syriacs are more "Levantine-like". The one Assyrian that's plotting in that recent Eurogenes MDS plot is a Syriac I believe, and he's positioned inside of the Levantine cluster.

Similarly, there is also an Armenian cline. Eastern Armenians are closer to Anatolians, Mesopotamians and Levantines, while Western Armenians are closer to Georgians and other Caucasians.

Are you sure you don't have Eastern and Western Armenians flipped?

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Are you sure you don't have Eastern and Western Armenians flipped?

Wait, aren't Eastern Armenians the one's hailing from Eastern Anatolia?

[Elms]

Wait, aren't Eastern Armenians the one's hailing from Eastern Anatolia?

No, Eastern Armenians are the ones from the Caucasus and Western Armenians are the ones from the Armenian Highlands in Turkey.

[LightHouse89]

Not trying to go off-topic but we are mainly different because we believe Jesus Christ had two natures; one human, one divine. It was also the church of Persia at one point.

In a way I always viewed Middle Eastern Christianity as the real Christianity. Although it does have similarities with European culture to a degree but not entirely. Middle Eastern Christians celebrate Easter and what not which Europeans before being Christian celebrated Easter. I would say not all of our holidays are similar. Halloween is not [as far as I know] common anywhere except the British Islands and maybe North America. I could be mistaken but it seems like a Celtic thing to me.

[gregorius]

Wait, aren't Eastern Armenians the one's hailing from Eastern Anatolia?

Eastern Armenians are the ones from caucasus, Western Armenians are the ones from Eastern Anatolia, Besides these two there are also Hemshen an Cherkesogai

[Elms]

In a way I always viewed Middle Eastern Christianity as the real Christianity. Although it does have similarities with European culture to a degree but not entirely. Middle Eastern Christians celebrate Easter and what not which Europeans before being Christian celebrated Easter. I would say not all of our holidays are similar. Halloween is not [as far as I know] common anywhere except the British Islands and maybe North America. I could be mistaken but it seems like a Celtic thing to me.

Middle Easterns Christians largely belong to Oriental Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism , or Eastern Orthodoxy with a smaller amount following the Assyrian/Ancient Church of the East and an even lesser amount following Protestantism.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

No, Eastern Armenians are the ones from the Caucasus and Western Armenians are the ones from the Armenian Highlands in Turkey.

Oh okay, then yeah, reverse those two.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Eastern Armenians are the ones from caucasus, Western Armenians are the ones from Eastern Anatolia, Besides these two there are also Hemshen an Cherkesogai

Yes, in fact, the "Armenians" reference from the public genetics projects are Eastern Armenians from Northwest Georgia (I think?). These Armenians are the most distant from Assyrians, the others vary. Armenian_D is the closest usually.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

Let me illustrate the genetic relationship between the Armenian reference groups, and a Chaldean man who's family is from Iraq.

[,1] [,2]
[1,] "Uzbekistan_Jews" "5.4323"
[2,] "Iraq_Jews" "7.1979"
[3,] "Iranian_Jews" "7.9"
[4,] "Assyrian_D" "8.5446"
[5,] "Azerbaijan_Jews" "8.747"
[6,] "Georgia_Jews" "9.051"
[7,] "Lebanese" "9.5546"
[8,] "Druze" "11.249"
[9,] "Turks" "12.4676"
[10,] "Syrians" "12.5403"
[11,] "Armenian_D" "13.0713"
[12,] "Armenians_15_Y" "13.3195"
[13,] "Turkish_D" "13.6869"
[14,] "Kurds_Y" "13.7241"
[15,] "Kurd_D" "14.5186"
[16,] "Jordanians" "14.9389"
[17,] "Iranian_D" "15.9897"
[18,] "Cypriots" "16.1171"
[19,] "Iranians" "17.678"
[20,] "Palestinian" "18.082"
[21,] "Armenians" "18.723"
[22,] "Samaritians" "19.7413"
[23,] "Sephardic_Jews" "21.3499"
[24,] "Morocco_Jews" "24.1367"
[25,] "Ashkenazy_Jews" "24.6727"
[26,] "Kumyks_Y" "25.345"
[27,] "Ashkenazi_D" "25.3734"
[28,] "S_Italian_Sicilian_D" "26.2817"
[29,] "Sicilian_D" "27.119"
[30,] "Turkmens_Y" "27.5027"

Notice how much closer he is to Armenian_D and Armenian_15_Y (Armenians from the Yunusbayev study) than to Armenians. The Armenians reference is from the Caucasus, while the other two are from Turkey. At first, I was puzzled by this, but geographically it makes sense.

[LightHouse89]

Middle Easterns Christians largely belong to Oriental Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism , or Eastern Orthodoxy with a smaller amount following the Assyrian/Ancient Church of the East and an even lesser amount following Protestantism.

The ancient church is interesting. What about the Lebanese Maronites? My friend is part Lebanese and his ancestors were Maronites.

[LightHouse89]

Oh okay, then yeah, reverse those two.

oompa loopa dupety do! sorry I had to do that.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

The ancient church is interesting. What about the Lebanese Maronites? My friend is part Lebanese and his ancestors were Maronites.

Some Maronites are Assyrians themselves, or have Assyrian ancestry. I'm interested in seeing some autosomal DNA from them. I suspect that they'd cluster with us.

[Musso]

I'd suspect that some Armenians would cluster with Syriac Christians, as the Syriac Oriental Orthodox Church is in communion with Armenian Church. Armenians from Western Armenia, from places like Sasoun, will probably cluster more closer to Assyrians than Armenians from Karabakh and Syunik. Given the history of Cilicia, some Armenians from Western Armenia can cluster with Maronites and other Christians in the Levant. The thing is however, after the Armenian Genocide, these Western Armenians either migrated to other countries or moved to Eastern Armenia which turned into Armenia SSR. These Armenians subsequently mixed with the Eastern Armenians and the mixing evolved into the current generations of Armenians of Armenia (also referred to as Eastern Armenians).

[LightHouse89]

Some Maronites are Assyrians themselves, or have Assyrian ancestry. I'm interested in seeing some autosomal DNA from them. I suspect that they'd cluster with us.

Interesting. The middle eastern version of Christianity is interesting. I wonder if they impacted the Orthodox churches iconography? as in Russian and Greek iconography in Churches resembles the same with the Middle Eastern churches.

[Musso]

Interesting. The middle eastern version of Christianity is interesting. I wonder if they impacted the Orthodox churches iconography? as in Russian and Greek iconography in Churches resembles the same with the Middle Eastern churches.

Middle Eastern Version? The original Christian church and religion for that matter comes from the Middle East. If anything, there is European Version of Christianity, American version, etc.

[LightHouse89]

Middle Eastern Version? The original Christian church and religion for that matter comes from the Middle East. If anything, there is European Version of Christianity, American version, etc.

Yes I am aware of this. I mean the art and its tradition within all of the Orthodox churches? Does the art tradition or style of Russian/Greek orthodox iconography come from the middle east or no?

[Musso]

Yes I am aware of this. I mean the art and its tradition within all of the Orthodox churches? Does the art tradition or style of Russian/Greek orthodox iconography come from the middle east or no?

I'm not sure of the iconography. As you know, in Islam, religious drawings have always been strongly forbidden, and I believe in Judaism also to an extent. Some Greek/Russian chants however have some oriental elements to them.

[LightHouse89]

I'm not sure of the iconography. As you know, in Islam, religious drawings have always been strongly forbidden, and I believe in Judaism also to an extent. Some Greek/Russian chants however have some oriental elements to them.

I have always viewed the art style of iconography as being a bit eastern to me. Well compared to Western art is very different. It would be interesting to see. I have never understood why Middle Easterners have viewed art as negative. It generally just depicts a story and that's it. Westerners like it for the fact it expresses a time period and set of events along with the story. Its a way of admiring something. To each his own.

[blogen]

That is not completely true. There are many Southern Italians and probably also some Greeks with Armenoid features.

Absolute periphery from an European viewpoint. They are not average Europeans.

[LightHouse89]

Are they a distinct population then?

[Elms]

I'd suspect that some Armenians would cluster with Syriac Christians, as the Syriac Oriental Orthodox Church is in communion with Armenian Church. Armenians from Western Armenia, from places like Sasoun, will probably cluster more closer to Assyrians than Armenians from Karabakh and Syunik. Given the history of Cilicia, some Armenians from Western Armenia can cluster with Maronites and other Christians in the Levant. The thing is however, after the Armenian Genocide, these Western Armenians either migrated to other countries or moved to Eastern Armenia which turned into Armenia SSR. These Armenians subsequently mixed with the Eastern Armenians and the mixing evolved into the current generations of Armenians of Armenia (also referred to as Eastern Armenians).

That's actually not as likely for the sole reason that the Assyrians of the Syriac Church usually live in the Levant while the Assyrians of the Assyrian/Ancient Church of the East live/used to live in Turkey, Iran, and northern Iraq. Unless of course you are talking about the Armenians that live in the Levant.

Both Assyrians(Assyrian Church of the East) and [Western] Armenians now largely live in California. Armenians mostly in southern and Assyrians in both northern and southern. :)

[Black Wolf]

Absolute periphery from an European viewpoint. They are not average Europeans.

That is true they are from the periphery. Id on't if there is such thing as an ''average'' European though.

[ZephyrousMandaru]

That's actually not as likely for the sole reason that the Assyrians of the Syriac Church usually live in the Levant while the Assyrians of the Assyrian/Ancient Church of the East live/used to live in Turkey, Iran, and northern Iraq. Unless of course you are talking about the Armenians that live in the Levant.

What's important to remember here, is that human genetic substructures usually emulate geography. So you have a point, Syriac Orthodox Assyrians aren't going to be as close to Armenians as Nestorian Assyrians will be. And probably very distant from Eastern Armenians originating from the Caucasus, I'd predict a genetic distance of about 20 on average for Syriac Orthodox Assyrians and Eastern Armenians. So, unless those Armenians have mixed with Levantine Arabs, they're probably not going to be as close as we think.

I think most of the Armenians in the Levant, Iraq and Iran are Western Armenians. So, those Armenians should be relatively close to Syriac Orthodox Assyrians. I remember Sargon999, a Syriac Orthodox Assyrian who use to frequent ABF, had a DNA Tribes percentage for "Arabian" of about 35%, while mine was only around 27%. I also scored a higher percentage of "Caucasian-Anatolian" than he did.

[Azamat]

You have shown no proof of what you say just like most Kurds don't.
http://landofkarda.blogspot.com/2009/01/hurro-urartian-substratum-in-kurdish.html
http://landofkarda.blogspot.com/2011/04/hurro-urartian-substratum-in-kurdish-2.html
http://landofkarda.blogspot.com/2011/04/hurro-urartian-substratum-in-kurdish-3.html
The toponyms are generally conservative and give insight to the human history of the region when it comes to possible linguistic influnce or shifts.
It has long been shown by scholars that significant portion of Kurdish toponymy originates from Hurro-Urartian; examples are ''Barzani'' which was name of a Hurrian god; or Kurdish clan names ''Zibari'' from ''Sippar'', ''Musuri'' from ''Musri'', or name of ''Ziwiya'' from ''Zibiya'' ( capital of Hurro-Urartian kingdom of Manna, south of lake Urmia), name vally of ''Harir'' from ''Kiruri'', and dozens other place names and hydronyms such as Xabur, Van, etc. To these also must be added the name of 'Kurdistan' itself in Kurdish (endonym), i.e. ''Kurdawari'','' awari'' being the Hurrian word meaning ''land, field''.
Name of the Kurdish village ''Roboski'' is a remnamt of the name ''Eribuski'', the golden eagle of Teshup.


This time we are going to elaborate the Hurro-Urartian remains in vocabulary of Kurdish, which survive as a strong substratum. The process of aryanization of Kurdistan, though superficially, began after spread of the first waves of the Indo-Iranic-speaking tribes in the early first millennium BC. The pioneers were Scytho-Cimmerians who invaded the kingdom of Urartu. But it is also known that there were Indo-Iranic horse-trainers in the Hurrian kingdom of Mitanni, about a thousand years earlier).
The pre-Iranic substratum in Kurdish is so significant that it would be safe to consider Kurdish as a creole language. Indeed, there are hardly any cases where there is not a ''native'' Kurdish equivalent for the superimposed Irano-Kurdish words. With Irano-Kurdish it is meant words which could originally be traced to proto-Iranic but over time have changed after Kurdish phonetic laws.
Since after World War II, linguists, due to lack of interest in Kurdish studies, have often neglected the pre-Iranic substratum in Kurdish and focused merely on the Irano-Kurdish layer. Of the Urartian language is not much known either (about 300 words), however, a strong majority of its known words have a identical or at least close equivalent in Kurdish. Urartian though closely related to Hurrian, sound more similar to Kurdish than does Hurrian; this may depend on the fact that Hurrian was spoken at an earlier time period. Mannaean was another Hurro-Urartian-related dialect spoken south of lake Urmia.

It is also worth noting that Armenian scholars have found a few Urartian words in Armenian, which appear to be borrowings via Kurdish.
1)
Urartian: Ale (he says)
Kurdish: Ale ئەڵێ (he says)

Urartian: Shuri (sword)
Kurdish: Shur شوور (sword)
Armenian: Sowr

Urartian: Kuri (foot, leg)
Kurdish: Qul قول (foot, leg)

Urartian: xur (deep)
Kurdish: xur/qul/kur خووڕ/قوول/کوور (deep),

Hurrian: agul (carve)
Kurdish: 'kol-[în]' کۆڵین : (to digg), kêla: (plow)

Urartian: shini (you, plural)
Kurdish: hin هین/هون (you, plural, cf. sh>h a regular sound change in Kurdish)

Urartian: apa (he/she/it)
Kurdish: awa, aw/ava, av cf. Kurdish p>w and p>v ئەوە (he/she/it)

Urartian: Sale (kid)
Kurdish: Zaro زارۆ (kid)
Armenian: jar (he-goat)

Urartian: tali (stick)
Kurdish: têla (stick, cf. Kurdish a>ê)

10)
Urartian: papi/bab/babani (mountain top)
Kurdish: pope پۆپە (head)/ bani بانی (mountain top)

Urartian: qal/kar (kill/slay, subjugate)
Kurdish: qir قڕ (kill, slay, cf Kurdish a>i)

Hurrian: shur (war)
Kurdish: sher شەڕ (war)

Urartian: bidia (turn)
Kurdish: bada-n بادان (turn)

Urartian: da (give)
Kurdish: da, دا (give, Iranic and other IE languages have a similar lexeme)

Urartian: xus/hush (throw)
Kurdish: xis-[tin]/hawish-[tin] خستن/هاویشتن (throw, cf Kurdish u>i)

Urartian: karbe (rock, stone)
Kurdish: karra کەڕا (rock, stone)
Armenian: qar (rock, stone)

Urartian: quira (earth, dust)
Kurdish: qur, xol قوڕ/خۆڵ (earth, dust)

Hurrian: arte (earth, soil)
Kurdish: ard ئەرد/هەرد (earth, soil, cf Kurdish rt > rd)

Urartian: $erab (dry)
Kurdish: chora چۆڕا (dry)
Armenian: caraw (dry)

20)
Urartian: eue (and)
Kurdish: u ئوو (and) but see even Iranic ''ut''

Urartian: tur ( to leave)
Kurdish: tor-[an], تۆران to leave

Urartian: ul (to go)
Kurdish: lu-wan لوان (to go)

Urartian: ulhu (order)
Kurdish: ol ئۆل (religion)

Urartian: bura (slave, servant)
Kurdish: bora بۆرە (commoner, low-class)

Urartian: xarxar (destroy)
Kurdish: xirxal خرخاڵ (destroyed)

Urartian: ale (but)
Kurdish: lê لێ (but)

Urartian: duli (grape)
Kurdish: trê, tirî ترێ (grape, cf. l>r and u>i)
Armenian: toli (grape)

Urartian: kapi (capacity measure)
Kurdish: kap/qap کاپ/قاپ (capacity measure)

Urartian: nah (to bring)
Kurdish: hên-an/han-în هانین/هێنان (to bring)

30)
Urartian: pare (toward)
Kurdish: pîr پیر (toward),

Urartian: pile (water canal)
Kurdish: pil-û-sk پلووسک (rain canal)

Urartian: tan (lay down)
Kurdish: dan-[an] دانان (lay down)

Hurrian: id- (hit, strike)
Kurdish: -d- (hit strike); ([lê] d-[an])

Urartian: teq- (to thump, to break)
Kurdish: teq-[în] تەقین (to thump, to break)

Urartian: uzgi (power, strength)
Kurdish: wuze وزە (power, strength, cf. Kurdish u- > w-)

Urartian: mari (lord, horseman)
Kurdish: mir میر (lord, compare also with the Semitic ''Amir'')

Urartian: shu/shia (to go)
Kurdish: chu, چوو (to go, cf. also Iranic ''shiyaw'')

Urartian: euri (lord)
Kurdish: hêwir هێور (brave)

Urartian: xarari (calm)
Kurdish: oqre ئۆقرە (calm),
Armenian:

40)
Urartian: zar (orchard)
Kurdish: zar زار (orchard)
Armenian: car (tree)

Urartian: ur (to place down)
Kurdish: wer-[in], وەرین (to place down, cf. Kurdish u-> w- )

Urartian: wal, (to win)
Kurdish: wêr-an وێران (to dare)

Urartian: zelbi (descendant)
Kurdish: zol زۆڵ (bastard)

Urartian: zeld, (to shatter the enemies)
Kurdish: zal زاڵ (to shatter the enemies)

Urartian: qarqar (throat)
Kurdish: qurg قورگ (throat, compare also with the Irano-Kurdish garû, and Persian galu, there is also another word in Kurdish: qurquroska)

Hurrian: kut/kud (to make fall, to kill)
Urartian: qot (piece)
Kurdish: kut کوت (piece), kut-a کوتان (to smash), kud (to kill)

Urartian: xubi (valley)
Kurdish: qopi قۆپی (valley, vale, plain)

Urartian: xare (to march, to raid)
Kurdish: xar غار (to march, to raid)

Hurrian: Hiuri (smoke)
Kurdish: Hulm هوڵم (steam)

50)
Urartian: $ue (river, lake)
Kurdish: chom/gom چۆم/گۆم (rive lake)
Armenian: cov (lake)

Hurrian: tiv (word)
Urartian: tiw (to speak)
Kurdish: diw-an دوان (to speak)

Urartian: abeli/aweli (attach, increase)
Kurdish: awale/awela ئاواڵە/ئاوەڵا (open)

Urartian: an, (no)
Kurdish: na, نا (no; there is also a similar equivalent in Iranic)

Urartian: ari-beri
Kurdish: birin برن (to carry, there is also a similar equivalent in Iranic)

Urartian: ewani/ebani (land)
Kurdish: -wan وان (suffix used after place-names)

Urartian: kulune (side)
Kurdish: qulin-chk قولینچک/ qurne قوڕنە (side, corner)
Armenian: koln

Urartian: man (to stay)
Kurdish: man مان (to stay), (resembles even Iranic, cf. New Persian ''mandan'')

Urartian: mana <Iranic (measure unite, mina)
Kurdish: man<Iranic (measure unite, mina)

Urartian: me (prohibitive particle)
Kurdish: me مە (prohibitive particle)

60)
Urartian: pahi (cattle)
Hurrian: pedari (cattle)
Kassite: badar (bull, cattle)
Kurdish: patal پاتاڵ (cattle)
Armenian: paxre

Urartian: par, to take off
Kurdish: pirr [-dan] پڕ (to take off, cf. Kurdish a>i)

Urartian: kamn (old, earlier)
Kurdish: kavn/kawn کەڤن/کەون (old, cf. m>v but also Iranic ''kohan'' which has led to Kurdish ''kon'')

Urartian: pe? (under)
Kurdish: pe? پێ (under, foot, cf. even Iranic pey)

Urartian: shid (build)
Kurdish: chê-[kirin], چێ (build cf, kurdish d>nil)

Hurrian: awari
Kurdish: awari ئەواری (land, country, field, cf. kurdawari, کوردەواری / warê me وارێ مە)
(Armenian agarak has been suggested as an Armenian loan from 'awari'. Kurdish has even 'garak' with the same meaning).
Urartian: ur (territory)

Urartian: qapqari
Kurdish: gamaro (p>w>m cf Kurdish ziman<ziwan<zban)

Urartian: sher (hide)
Kurdish: sher/shar شێر/وەشارتن (hide)

Urartian: quldi (uninhabited)
Kurdish: kawil (کاول) (annihilate,destruction)

Urartian: ar- (give)
Kurdish: ar- (give, dialectal as in Slêmanî, for example: ''bi-ar-ê'': بیەرێ ''give him'')

70)
Urartian: ture (destroy)
Kurdish: ture تووڕە (angry)

Urartian: aba (desire)
Kurdish: awat ئاوات (desire), aw-in ئەوین (to love)

Urartian: ada (again)
Kurdish: idi ئیدی (another, anymore)

Urartian: shal-i (year)
Kurdish: sal ساڵ (year, but Iranian ''sard'', New Persian has also ''sal'')
Armenian: tari

Urartian: šeh-i/eri/e, living
Kurdish: zhiyar ژیار (living)

Urartian: arnu-ia (come to the aid of)
Kurdish: hana هانا (come to the aid of, cf Kurdish a- >ha- )

Urartian: lak- (to destroy)
Kurdish: Rûx-[an] رووخان (to destroy)

Urartian: 'are (granary)
Kurdish: harr هاڕ (granary, cf Kurdish ha-<-a, notice 'zimharr' زمهاڕ, meaning 'winter granary')

Urartian: ieshti (here)
Kurdish: hêsthte هێشتە (now)

Urartian: meshe (part, tribute, share)
Kurdish: mûche مووچە (part, tribute, share)

80)
Urartian: pi$ushe (joy)
Kurdish: pishû پشوو (holyday, vacation)

Hurrian: sheshe (six)
Kurdish: shesh شەش (six, but it is the same even in Iranic)

Urartian: izidu (admonish, command)
Kurdish: ezidi ئێزیدی (name of a native religion in Kurdistan)

urartian: yarani (kind of cultic building, altar)
Kurdish: yari یاری (name of a native religion in Kurdistan)

Urartian: aleu (dignity)
Kurdish: alewi ئالەوی (name of a native religion in Kurdistan)

Urartian and Hurrian: /-i/, /-iye/ (his, her, its)
Kurdish: /-i/, /-y/ ی (his, her, its)

Hurrian: /-v/ (your)
Kurdish: /-w/ و (your)

Urartian: ushanu (award, bestow, feel affection for )
Kurdish: wuchan وچان (rest, reprieve)

Urartian: napahia (submission, bondage, domestication)
Kurdish: nawi نەوی (low, a low level, position or degree), (p>w)

Urartian: tur (defeat, destroy)
Kurdish: dor- دۆڕ (defeat)

90)
Urartian: sal-zi (steep, abrupt)
Kurdish: sila سڵا (height)

Urartian: sil-e (woman, doughter)
Kurdish: selar سەلار (mistress of the house, beautiful woman) (note ''Selardi'', a lunar goddess of Urartu)

Urartian: lutu (woman)
Kurdish: lute لووتە (quoquettish woman)

Urartian: uldie (vineyard)
Kurdish: lote لۆتە (grapes hanged in order to be sun dried in a vineyard)

Urartian: nikidu (water)
Kurdish: niqdo/niqût نقووت/نقدۆ (water infiltration, water dropping, water penetration), (plus some other cognates of the word)

Urartian: kan/kain (in front of)
Kurdish: kin کن (in front of, near) (but cf. also Iranic ''kenar'')

Urartian: haš-ia: (be interested in)
Kurdish: haz حەز (be interested in, love, like)

Urartian: d-u-: (do, cause to do)
Kurdish: da/di: ده/د (do, cause to do, used as a preffix for verbs)

Urartian: shalur (medlar)
Kurdish: shalor شەلۆر (nectarine)
Armenian: salor (plum) (clearly borrowed via Kurdish)

Urartian: mure (house)
Kurdish: mal ماڵ (house)

100)
Urartian: urishi (weapon)
Kurdish: hereshe هەڕەشە (threat), /(there is also ''huruzhim'': هوروژم attack)

Hurrian: shini (two)
Kurdish: shingil شنگڵ (twin, twin fruit)

Urartian: egur-hu (free)
Kurdish: xorayi خۆرایی (free)

Urartian: bad-gul (surround)
Kurdish: bawe-xulê باوەخولێ (turn around, also a kids game)

Urartian: aish-ti (leap, jump)
Kurdish: hej-an هەژان (quake)

Urartian: ibirani (whole, complete, full)
Kurdish: pirani پڕانی (majority)

Hurrian: hinzur (apple? pear?)
Kurdish: hencor هەنجۆر (unripe melon)

Urartian: kut-u (reach)
Kurdish: (geh<*ged) گەهشتن/گەیشتن (reach)

Urartian: ai/ay: (look, take care)
Kurdish: aw-ir ئاوڕ (look)

Urartian: di/erasia (fear)
Kurdish: tirs ترس (fear, but cf. also Iranic ''tars'')

110)
Urartian: Ti/er-usi, measure for liquid
Kurdish: Telîs?تەلیس measure of unit

Hurrian: ben
Kassite: ban
Kurdish: minal مناڵ (child)

Kassite: nadz (shade)
Kurdish: nisê نسێ (shade)

Kassite: ulam (son, child)
Urartian: alaue (man)
Kurdish: law لاو (young boy)

Hurrian: çugi
Kassite: tsugi
Kurdish: chuk چووک (small)

Hurrian: ewri (dog)
Kurdish wer-în وەرین (barking of dog)

Hurrian: shiye (watery)
Kurdish: she شە (moisture)

Urartian: zainua (high)
Kurdish: zinar زنار (high cliff, high boulder)

Hurrian: shalmi (ashes, to burn)
Kurdish zhilemo ژیلەمۆ (burning ashes)

Urartian: amash (burnt)
Kurdish mêsh مێش (burnt ashes) (cf. ê<a)

120)
Hurrian: puhi (nose)
Kurdish: (kepû) کەپۆ (nose)

Urartian: shepuiaru (spoil)
Kurdish: sheprêwشپڕێو (disorderly)

Urartian: mesh- (distribute, share)
Kurdish: wesh-[an] وەشان (distribute, share)

Urartian: teribi (monument)
Kurdish: tirb ترب (monument, grave) (not be confused with Arabic 'turbat': soil)

Hurrian: fur-i (viw)
Urartian: wur-i (view)
Kurdish: wuria وریا (viewer, careful), awur ئاووڕ (sight), (even the Kurdish verb ''ruwan''-[in] (view) is likely connected to the Urartian ''wur'', rarther than being a metathesis for Iranic ''negar'')

Hurrian: halv- (enclose)
Kurdish: hal- هاڵ (enclose)

Urartian: kul-me (wealth, prosperity)
Kurdish: kel-k کەڵک (profitable, usefulness)

Hurrian: pâl (false)
Kurdish: fêl فێڵ (fraud)

Hurrian: tapsh- (destroy)
Kurdish: tawjm تەوژم (pressure), tapi (destroy)

Hurrian: apxe (louse)
Kurdish: aspe ئەسپێ (louse)

130)
Hurrian: kapp- (fill)
Kurdish: kipp کپ (filled)

Hurrian: azhoge (meal)
Kurdish: azhge/zig (stomach)

Hurrian: kul- (to speak)
Kurdish: qul- قوول (to speak aloud)

Hurrian: timeri (black)
Kurdish: tem تەم (darkness)

Urartian: tara-gie (powerful, strong)
Kurdish: daraqat دەرەقەت (to be powerful, to be strong)

Urartian: tam-hu (eliminate separate)
Kurdish: toq-[andin]<tawq (terrorize, frighten)

Urartian: shi-u (carry away)
Kurdish: shi-[andin] (send)

Urartian: anda-ni (right)
Kurdish: and ئاند (right)

Urartian: irb-u (take away grab)
Kurdish: rev-[andin]/rif-[andin] (take away, grab) (but cf. also Iranian 'robudan', take away, grab)

Urartian: pit- (beat apart, destroy)
Kurdish: pis-/pichr- (beat apart, destroy)

140)
Urartian: tishni (heart)
Kurdish: dine دنە (encourage) (cf. t > d & sh > nil)

Urartian: ti-ni (name)
Kurdish: deng دەنگ (voice)

Urartian: bauše (word)
Kurdish: wuše وشە (word)

Urartian: durba (revolt, rebel)
Kurdish: tola (revenge)

Urartian: hut-ia (to ask)
Kurdish: qut-abî (student)

Hurrian: fir (remove, untie)
Kurdish: fir, firê (throw)

Hurrian: halme (singing)
Kurdish: hore هۆرە (singing)

Hurrian: havur (heaven)
Kurdish: hawr (cloud), (note also Indo-Iranic abra)

Urartian: agu (lead away) (of IE origin?)
Kurdish: ajo-[tin] ئاژۆتن (lead away, drive)

Hurrian: asti (woman)
Kurdish: astê (name of a beloved woman in Kurdish folklore)

150)
Hurrian: tav/(-b) (to cast metal)
Kurdish: taw (thaw, melt)

Hurrian: ai (if)
Kurdish: ai (if)

Hurrian: alilan (lament)
Kurdish: lalan (lament)

Hurrian: çabalgi (fault)
Kurdish: çapal چەپەڵ (dirty)

Hurrian: xiyari (all)
Kurdish: xir (all)

Hurrian: çere (donkey)
Kurdish: ker (donkey)

Hurrian: çik- (break)
Kurdish: shik- (break)

Hurrian: xîri (hour, time, moment)
Kurdish: xêra خێرا (soon, hurry)

Hurrian: xizli (coiled)
Kurdish: cexiz جەخز(coiled)

Hurrian: xub- (to break, to destroy)
Kurdish: qup- (to break, to destroy)

160)
Hurrian: istani (between, among)
Kurdish: astang ئاستەنگ (obstacle)

Hurrian: izikun- (to wail)
Kurdish: zikan- (to wail)

Hurrian: kakari (sort of ritual bread)
Kurdish: kullêre, kellane (sort of ritual bread)

Hurrian: magunni (desire)
Kurdish: magirani (desire)

Hurrian: shakari or sagari (sprout, bud)
Kurdish: chakara چەکەرە (sprout, bud)

Hurrian: arushal (hurry)
Kurdish: halasha هەڵەشە (stressful)

Hurrian: heni (now)
Kurdish: henu-ke, niha, neha (now)

Hurrian: parili (crime)
Kurdish: palamar پەلامار (attack)

Hurrian: adi (thus)
Kurdish: dai (thus)

Hurrian: ak-i/u (other)
Kurdish: -ka (other)

170)
Hurrian: we (thou)
Kurdish: ê-we (you)

Hurrian: buru (strong)
Kurdish: wure ورە (strength)

Hurrian: çam (rip)
Kurdish çam (bend)

Hurrian: zurgi (blood)
Kurdish: zûx (blood), (compare, xwênaw=zûxaw)

Hurrian: xahli (cheek)
Kurdish: kulm (cheek)

Hurrian: halwu (fence made with stones)
Kurdish: hêl هێڵ (fence)

Hurrian: xawirni (lamb)
Kurdish kawir کاوڕ (young sheep)

Hurrian: xamaz- (oppress)
Kurdish chaws- (oppress)

Hurrian: hendz (constrain)
Kurdish: hêndj (constrain)

Hurrian: xerari (sinew)
Kurdish: kiroje (sinew)

180)
Hurrian: xeshmi (bright)
Kurdish: gesh (bright)

Hurrian: kalgi (weak)
Kurdish qals/qirj (weak)

Hurrian: nali (deer)
Kurdish: nêrî (male adult goat)

Hurrian: nawn- (pasture)
Kurdish: naw- (pasture)

Hurrian: ul- (to, eat, to devour)
Kurdish: lawar( la-war-) (to devour)

Hurrian: ubi (stupid, insane)
Kurdish: hapa (stupid, insane)

Hurrian: ashxu (high)
Kurdish: shax (mountain), also 'asê' means: uppward, high.

Hurrian: kaziari (high mountains of the Mesopotamian valley)
Kurdish: kazh (high mountain)

Hurrian: kewiranna (the senate, the old men)
Kurdish: gewran (the big ones, the adult ones)

Hurrian: kuzh- (to keep, to retain)
Kurdish: kush- (to hold in hands, to press in hands), alt: Kurdish qoz- (to catch)

190)
Hurrian: nekri (<nek, negh) (lock)
Kurdish: neq نقاندن (niq/nûq)- (to close)

Hurrian: shalhi (to listen)
Kurdish: shil (listen)

Hurrian: siba (dry)
Kurdish: zuwa زوا (dry)

Urartian: dibi (building, room)
Kurdish: diw دیو (room)

Hurrian: shu (day)
Kurdish: shawa-ki (morning, day)

Hurrian: shirat (narrate)
Kurdish: shirove (narrate)

Hurrian: tishan (very much)
Kurdish: tizha تژە (full)

Urartian: sutug (tear away, unjoin)
Kurdish: shetek (knot)

Urartian: gey (anything)
Kurdish gi گ (anything)

Hurrian: baz (enter)
Kurdish: baz (pass by)

200)
Hurrian: xeban-: (to set moving)
Kurdish: xebi- خەبتین (to be active)

Hurrian: hamadz-: (to oppress)
Kurdish: chaws- (to oppress)

Hurrian: haz- (to hear)
Kurdish: bihiz-: (to hear)

Hurrian: xaz (to oil)
Kurdish: xiz (oily, slippery)

Hurrian: pas- (to send somebody)
Kurdish: pas- (to send, as in 'hal pasardin': 'to send into exile')

Hurrian: shagari (ram)
Kurdish: shak (young sheep)

Hurrian: pal (know, understand)
Kurdish: fêr (learn)

Urartian: -kai (position, in place)
Kurdish: -ka (location suffix)

Urartian: muš- (true, fair)
Kurdish: mušur موشوور (fairness)

Hurrian: abi (in front of)
Kurdish: ba (in front of, near)

210)
Hurrian: shimi (sun)
Kurdish: shem (sun) (focilized in shemshemekwere, ''blind for the sun'': ''bat''.

Urartian: derzu/derju (order, arrangement)
Kurdish: darêj- (order, arrangement)

Urartian: tep- (throw down)
Kurdish: tep- (throw down)

Urartian: atqan: (to consecrate)
Kurdish: tarxân (to consecrate)

Urartian: shuki (as)
Kurdish: waki < hoki<shuki وەکی (as)

Hurrian: hur (drink)
Urartian: xurishe (irrigator)
Kurdish: qurishke قوریشکە (cup)

Urartian: ulx (flow out)
Kurdish: bilqبڵق (b<w, bubble)

Urartian: alga-ni (mountain)
Kurdish: Lêj لێژ (abrupt, steep)

Urartian: auiei (somewher)
Kurdish: awê ئەوێ (there)

Urartian: puluse (inscription, stele)
Kurdish: psule (voucher, receipt)

220)
Urartian: niribe (herd)
Kurdish: ran (herd)

Urartian: iese/ieshe? (I, pronoun)
Kurdish: ez ئەز (I, resembles also the old Iranian 'azm', but which one is 'az' actually derives of? Armenians claim Armenian 'yes' (I) is derived of Ur. 'iese

Urartian: armuzi (family, clan, generation)
Kurdish: hoz هۆز (clan) + rama (seed, from to-rama)

Hurrian: hemz (surround)
Kurdish: amêz, hembêz ئامیز (hug)

Urartian: zani (cry out)
Kurdish: zhan, jan, ژان (agony)

Hurrian: karshi (lips)
Kurdish: kalpa کەڵپە (animal lips)

Hurrian: wirwir (loosen)
Kurdish: wilwil ولوڵ (loosen)

Kassite: ash (earth, soil)
Hurrian: esh (earth, soil)
Kurdish: ax ئاخ (earth, soil)

Urartian: qarmexî (gift, present, sacrifice, celebration)
Kurdish: qelin قەلین (gift, dowry)

Urartian: -atuhi (-ness)
Kurdish: -ati (-ness)

230)
Urartian: aman- (vessel, pot)
Kurdish: aman- ئامان (vessel, pot)

God of lightning and storm
Hurrian: Teshup
Urartian: Tesheba
Kassite: Tishpak
Kurdish: Tishk تیشک (light, radiance)

Hurrian: shu (hand)
Kurdish: shop (hand palm)

Hurrian: chilman- (to break, vanish)
Kurdish: chilmis- (fade)

Urartian: shur (wall around a castle, fence, borders of the kingdom)
Kurdish: shure (wall around a castle, fence)

Hurrian: xalwu (fence made with stones)
Kurdish: xal خەڵ (fence made with stones)

Hurrian: ya/ye (who, which, what)
Kurdish: ya/ye (who, which, what)

Hurrian: tun- (to win)
Kurdish: tuna توونا (defeated, destroyed)

Hurrian: taridi (pot)
Kurdish: tirar (pot)

Hurrian: kol (let off)
Kurdish: kol (let off) (as in ''le kol bunewe'')

240)
Hurrian:shir (to be suffiecent)
Kurdish: têr (to be suffiecent)

Hurrian: ha (take)
Kurdish: ha (take!)

Hurrian: tijari (spindle)
Kurdish: teshi (spindle)

Hurrian: ábri (stock of wood-logs)
Kurdish: awirdu (stock of wood-logs), awirig (oven)

Hurrian: baq- (destroy)
Kurdish: baq- بەقین (explode)

Hurrian: bashi (mouth)
Kurdish: bêj (to say), (common a>ê)

Hurrian: pashixi (message)
Kurdish: pazhux (answer)

Hurrian: tad- (love)
Kurdish: dalal (beloved) (common d>l)

Hurrian: tagi (beatiful)
Urartian: taugi (clean)
Kurdish: daq دەق (cheerful)

Hurrian: hild-/held- (high, raise, elevate)
Kurdish: hild-/held- هەڵدان/هڵدان (rasie, elevate)

250)
Hurrian: kabli (copper)
Kurdish: paqir پاقڕ (copper)

Kassite: kukla (slave)
Kurdish: kukla (doll), kukm (homeless)

Hurrian: kumdi (tower)
Kurdish: kumadj کۆماج (column)

Hurrian: kubakhi (hood)
Kurdish: kumik (hood)

Urartian: korde (uncultivated, desolate)
Kurdish: kode (uncultivated, desolate)

Hurrian: kundzi (to kneel)
Kurdish: kudik (knee)

Hurrian: Xiríti (trench)
Kurdish: Xir (trench)


Nominal morphology:
Out of nine noun cases in Urartian six have nearly identical Kurdish equivalents:

1) Absolutive: In Urartian, subject of intransitive verbs, direct objects and predicate nouns take no suffixes as in Kurdish. In plural Urartian uses ''-le'' and Kurdish ''-êl''.

2) Ergative: In Urartian subject of transitive verbs take /-shê/ suffix. Similarly in Kurdish, subject of transitive verbs take /-ê/ suffix; note that according to Kurdish historical phonetic changes /sh/ has regularly developed into /-h or nil/ ( hence we got: -shê>-ê). Under foreign languages influence (Turkish, Persian, Arabic) this ergative case ending is eroding in Kurdish, and it remains only in a few northern Kurdish variants.

3) Genitive: in Urartian /-i/-ie--ei/ was used. In Kurdish /-i/ is used especially in central Kurdish.

4) Dative: in Urartian -e/-ie/ was used. Similarly in Kurdish -ê is used, especially in northern Kurdish.

5) Locative: In Urartian /-a/ was used. Similarly in Kurdish /-a/ is used, especially in central Kurdish. In northern Kurdish, probably under influence of foreign languages /-da/ is used.

6) Comitative: in Urartian /-rani/ was used. The Kurdish equivalent is /-ra/, especially in northern Kurdish.

7) For directive cases Urartian used /-edi/, whereas Kurdish /-ê/ could be a later contraction of it.

8) and 9) for Urartian instrumental ablative and ablative, there does not remain any case endings in modern Kurdish.

Urartian and Kurdish agree in another morphological feature, called ''suffixaufnahme''.
Both languages follow SOV order in their syntax. Both use ya/ye as relative pronouns.

Verbal morphology:
In the verbal morphology, we find a very interesting archaism in central Kurdish. In order to create passive forms of transitive verbs, it uses a /-re-/-ra-/ morpheme, deriving from Hurrian /iri/ and Urartian /-auri/. Northern Kurdish uses an auxilary verb 'hatin' (Indo-Iranic feature?), and southern Kurdish uses /-iya-/ which is common in both Hurrian and old Iranic. However, the morpheme /iya/ is not limited only to south Kurdish, as it is also used more and less, in all other dialects.

Imperative: Both Urartian and Kurdish use an /-a/ suffix after verb roots to form imperative forms.

Jussive: Both Urartian and Kurdish (plural third person) take /-in/ after the verbal root.

Intransitive verbs in Urartian just as in Kurdish (and Iranic) take personal enclitics (identifying the subject) after the verbal root. But, what is more interesting is the use of personal suffixes after transitive verbal roots to identify direct objects; this is typical for Kurdish, especially the northern Kurdish, where exactly like Urartian, it is only personal suffixes of direct objects that follow the verbal roots, while no personal suffixes for subjects are used.

Causative: in Hurrian ''-ann'' is used, as in Kurdish ''-an'' or ''-and''.

In Urartian, verbal roots of intransitive verbs are marked with / -a/ just as in Kurdish, while verbal roots of transitive verbs are marked with /-u/, where according to Kurdish historical phonology /u>i/, its modern Kurdish equivalent is /-i/.
In Hurrian perfect tens is made by adding /osh/ to verbal root. In central Kurdish, /u[h]/ is sused (sh>h).

As can be seen, Kurdish language appears to be a creole language formed after an amalgamation of Hurro-Urartian and Iranic languages. The Hurro-Urartian layer, showing itself as an older substratum in which Urartian is stronger, while the Iranic layer, which began undoubtedly with the Scytho-Cimmerian invasion of Urartu emerges as a superstratum. The Iranic layer was further intensified with a wave of clearly identifiable middle Persian loanwords under the Sassanid period, during which, Iranic aristocrats played a prominent role in local affairs. The Islamic conquest of Kurdistan, resulting in collapse of the Sassanids, however, rescued Kurdish from further Iranicization, forever.

So far our thread cleaning of Elms' blunders for today.


and Arabization/Kurdification policies(Assyrians)Do present evidence as to the alleged existence of "Kurdified Assyrians". Remember, any Assyrian nationalist sources you might have readily available will not suffice.

[Rambo07]

The turks on average are mostly european, both looks and racially(genetically), the Armenians to me look more Middle eastern then anything.

It depends, Aegean / Istanbul area yes but in Central Anatolia is there is pronounced Turanid influence especially in the phenotypes of Men. Eastern Anatolia is just like the Middle East, with lots of Armenoids , Iranids and Asiatic Alpines.

[Elms]

http://landofkarda.blogspot.com/2009/01/hurro-urartian-substratum-in-kurdish.html
http://landofkarda.blogspot.com/2011/04/hurro-urartian-substratum-in-kurdish-2.html
http://landofkarda.blogspot.com/2011/04/hurro-urartian-substratum-in-kurdish-3.html




So far our thread cleaning of Elms' blunders for today.

Do present evidence as to the alleged existence of "Kurdified Assyrians". Remember, any Assyrian nationalist sources you might have readily available will not suffice.

You tell me not to post stuff from Assyrian nationalist sites, yet you use a Kurdish blog written by Kurds. Great job.


Kurdification is a cultural change in which something ethnically non-Kurdish is made to become Kurdish, usually in contexts of post-Saddam Iraq, in particular in relation to Assyrian Christians and Iraqi Turkmen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdification

The page has all non-Assyrian sources.

Kurds are basically Persians. You do not come from Uratians. Those are the ancestors of Armenians. You do not descend from Hurrians, or you would be much closer to Armenians, Assyrians, and Turks, not Persians. And even if you were, you do not have any cultural continuity from them. Subaratu was the old name of Assyria. Adiabene and Osroene were Assyrian. Get your own history and stop trying to steal others.

By the way, there is also no proof that Gordyene was Kurdish. Don't post stuff from Kurdish nationalist sites or blogs.

[Azamat]

You tell me not to post stuff from Assyrian nationalist sites, yet you use a Kurdish blog written by Kurds. Great job.Yet what is written in these blog posts is falsifiable, meaning that you can present its contents to professional linguists knowledgeable on both the Kurdish and Hurro-Urartian languages for testing. The bogus reports coming from organizations like AINA, by contrast, cannot be tested by empirical practice. Once again you fail.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KurdificationOK, let's hold these sources up to closer scrutiny.

Source 1: (http://books.google.nl/books?id=7KnoG_52Jh8C&pg=PA109&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false) speaks of efforts to "Kurdify mixed provinces". The context here is clearly as in altering demographics, not assimilation. A fail source.
Source 2: (http://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rwmain?page=topic&tocid=4565c22553&toid=4565c25f653&docid=469cbf9d0&skip=0) refers to the implementation of Article 140 which is the repatriation of Arabs settled in Kirkuk under Saddam Hussein. Again no mention of any groups being assimilated into Kurds.
Source 3: (http://www.asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=10562) is a newspaper article that mentions "Kurdification" but doesn't expound upon this alleged process anywhere in the article. This one needs no further introduction.
Source 4: (http://www.turkmen.nl/ITRAC1.pdf) is taken out of context on Wikipedia. The full citation is as follows: "The Kurdification procedure was soon implemented by the Kurdish leadership after toppling Saddam down in April 2003 up to date. They have appointed a Kurdish mayor (governor) who in turn appointed a Kurdish police chief who has done so many damages towards changing the demography of Turkmen regions (6).". Again, the source only talks of demographic "Kurdification", no assimilation.
Source 5: ""The Kurds, who are intent on the further ‘Kurdification’ of Kirkuk before any census is held" Again refers to the controversy around Article 140 and thus demographics.
Source 6 uses no citation and is inaccessible, and therefore violates the Wikipedia guidelines.
Source 7 mentions "Kurdification of northern Iraq" yet does not specify what this even means, it has no context. Since the very source is supposed to be providing an explanation of that, we are dealing with a case of the begging the question fallacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question) here.

So in conclusion there are seven sources here in total, and none of them can be used to support your assertion that Assyrians are being "Kurdified" anywhere in Kurdistan. Is Fail your last name?

[Elms]

Yet what is written in these blog posts is falsifiable, meaning that you can present its contents to professional linguists knowledgeable on both the Kurdish and Hurro-Urartian languages for testing. The bogus reports coming from organizations like AINA, by contrast, cannot be tested by empirical practice. Once again you fail.

It doesn't mean anything. I looked at a few of the first words, and the Assyrian word for he/she/it is basically the same. That doesn't prove any genetic or cultural continuity. Your language is Iranic anyway. Post a link with Kurdish next to the same words in Farsi and we'll see a real overlap. Armenian probably has just as many words in common.

[Azamat]

It doesn't mean anything. I looked at a few of the first words, and the Assyrian word for he/she/it is basically the same. So you looked at a few of the first words and then concluded that the data "doesn't mean anything"? Wow, I guess I must be communicating with a Phd in Statistics here.

Your language is Iranic anyway. Post a link with Kurdish next to the same words in Farsi and we'll see a real overlap.Except that this is not merely about lexicon but also grammar. The grammatic features of Kurdish mentioned that are thought to be a Hurro-Urartian legacy are alien to the Iranic language family. Have you even bothered to read my source at all?

Now drop it and run back to your nanny EliasAlucard because you're out of arguments.

[Elms]

So you looked at a few of the first words and then concluded that the data "doesn't mean anything"? Wow, I guess I must be communicating with a Phd in Statistics here.
Except that this is not merely about lexicon but also grammar. The grammatic features of Kurdish mentioned that are thought to be a Hurro-Urartian legacy are alien to the Iranic language family. Have you even bothered to read my source at all?

Now drop it and and run back to your nanny EliasAlucard because you're out of arguments.

The fact of the matter is that you and other Kurds are confused about where you come from so you latch onto any identity that used to exist in the geographical area you live in now. Medes, Hurrians, Uratians, Gordyenes, etc. I wonder when you will start considering the Byzantines to be Kurds. Probably when you overpopulate western Turkey with your ten kids.

Kurdification happened more during WWI, than any other time period. You know, when Kurds were massacring all the natives from Eastern Anatolia. It happens during war if you didn't know, just look at former Yugoslavia.

I also don't care if what you posted can be proven true. Unless you have a non-Kurdish source, it is worthless.

[Azamat]

The fact of the matter is that you and other Kurds are confused about where you come from so you latch onto any identity that used to exist in the geographical area you live in now. Medes, Hurrians, Uratians, Gordyenes, etc. I wonder when you will start considering the Byzantines to be Kurds. Probably when you overpopulate western Turkey with your ten kids.

Kurdification happened more during WWI, than any other time period. You know, when Kurds were massacring all the natives from Eastern Anatolia. It happens during war if you didn't know, just look at former Yugoslavia.Thanks for admitting defeat, kid. I know that must have been a daunting task but you gathered the courage to do it.


I also don't care if what you posted can be proven true. Unless you have a non-Kurdish source, it is worthless.But I rejected Assyrian nationalist sources beforehand purely because of their academic standards, not out of some association/ad-hominem fallacy that you seem to be subscribing to now.

[Elms]

Thanks for admitting defeat, kid. I know that was daunting task but you gathered the courage to do it.

I enjoy how you use "kid" even though you're eighteen. Get over yourself.

[Azamat]

I enjoy how you use "kid" even though you're eighteen. Get over yourself.Well, I'm sorry but your mental age is revealed based on your demonstrated ability to use sources and construct analytic arguments.

[Rambo07]

Well, I'm sorry but your mental age is revealed based on your demonstrated ability to use sources and construct analytic arguments.

+1

[Trebal]

Turks are lighter.

Turks mostly have brown hair while Armenians have dark hair like real Asians.

Armenians are like Jews and really very dark.

However, Armenians look still more Caucasoid than Turks.

Just look at Cher:

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/13638451/Cher%2B14.jpg

[teodor11]

armenians are black people

[Trebal]

armenians are black people

Turkish Nigger:

http://i0.top.de/490/152490,h_402,pd_1,w_402/eko-fresh.jpg

[Sero]

Turks are lighter.

Turks mostly have brown hair while Armenians have dark hair like real Asians.

Armenians are like Jews and really very dark.

However, Armenians look still more Caucasoid than Turks.

Just look at Cher:

http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/13638451/Cher%2B14.jpg


Not all Armenians are dark, my friend. My family is from Western Armenia(Eastern Anatolia). My uncles are tanned,yes, but their wives are blonde blue eyed, hazel, or green eyes. My dad had hazel eyes and white skin and mom was a ginger. As for me I'm white and have dark brown hair and dark brown eyes. But in the light my golden roots can be seen and eyes are light brownish/golden.

[Musso]

armenians are black people

Coming from a Turk...:lol00002:

[Musso]

Some black Armenians:

http://media.pn.am/media/set/5/448/big_213b02656.jpg

http://media.pn.am/media/set/5/437/big_7d9a49f74.jpg

http://media.pn.am/media/set/5/437/big_d34e8683d.jpg

http://media.pn.am/media/set/5/428/big_d0ab905ab.jpg

http://media.pn.am/media/set/5/423/big_8d9a0adb7.jpg

http://media.pn.am/media/set/5/412/big_ce614b828.jpg

http://media.pn.am/media/set/5/412/big_71f2a06dd.jpg

[Elms]

Well, I'm sorry but your mental age is revealed based on your demonstrated ability to use sources and construct analytic arguments.

I'ts funny that you're trying to pass yourself off as reasonable. If I had posted a blog written by Assyrians of Assyrian words connected to Hurrian words, you would have completely disregarded the source. And so what if 300 words come from Hurrian. Those words could have easily been loaned during the Median invasion of Northern Mesopotamia. That doesn't mean your native. If a few words in a language counted as nativity, than I also belong near Damascus(Aramaic), Tehran(Farsi), Arabia(Arabic), and Central Asia(Turkish) even though I have no genetic influence from these people excluding the first. For all we know, those words could have belonged to the Gutians from the Zagros Mountains, where your people come from.

Urartu= Armenia
Subartu= Assyria

[Elms]

+1

Worthless post.

[StonyArabia]

Urartu= Armenia
Subartu= Assyria

More proof that Assyrians are not the proto-Semites.

[Elms]

More proof that Assyrians are not the proto-Semites.

That's what both areas were called in Akkadian and Sumerian. Discuss it with Humanist or Elias, I don't care enough about the topic.

[Shah-Jehan]

Coming from a Turk...:lol00002:

He's Circassian/Ossetian-Alanian

[DarkSecret]

He's Circassian/Ossetian-Alanian

Turks are not race so he is still Turk...

[Baluarte]

Turks are not race so he is still Turk...

If we're going by nationality terms, it's impossible to make any sort of assessment regarding the "whiteness" of Turks. The variety of phenotypes there due to mongrelizing is massive, and an average isn't precisely easy to determine in order to make comparisons.

Again, Armenians are of course more related to traditional European civilization, even if they dont' quite belong in it.
Regarding phenotypes, it's hard to say.

[Illancha]

Some black Armenians:
Niggers of the Churkid race, only found in Russia.

Refer to Sevruk for further details.

[DarkSecret]

If we're going by nationality terms, it's impossible to make any sort of assessment regarding the "whiteness" of Turks. The variety of phenotypes there due to mongrelizing is massive, and an average isn't precisely easy to determine in order to make comparisons.

Again, Armenians are of course more related to traditional European civilization, even if they dont' quite belong in it.
Regarding phenotypes, it's hard to say.

Yaeah a HUGE MASSIVE MONGRELIZM is going on Turkey.... OMG!

[Rambo07]

@ Elms
That coming from the king of worthless pseudo intellctual bs and banter lol

[LightHouse89]

Georgians to me look the most white. Anyway I would say some Armenians and Turks both equally can pass in some cases. My neighbor is a Turk and he looks very white. He has blonde hair and blue eyes oddly enough.

[LightHouse89]

some look white and can pass for southern Europeans maybe?

[diegrossezeit]

No way Armenians are whiter than Turks.

[Hayasa]

Comparison
http://i40.tinypic.com/2h6x375.jpg

[Hayasa]

http://i39.tinypic.com/bjeg76.jpg

link: http://i39.tinypic.com/bjeg76.jpg

[Hayasa]

http://i41.tinypic.com/1zwkx8y.gif

link: http://i41.tinypic.com/1zwkx8y.gif

[Hayasa]

Overall comparison of Armenians and Turks:

http://i39.tinypic.com/156tj5u.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/156tj5u.jpg

[Hadouken]

http://i41.tinypic.com/1zwkx8y.gif

link: http://i41.tinypic.com/1zwkx8y.gif

does african admixture mean ssa or north african ? or both ?

[Hayasa]

I actually don't know that. I got this map from Eupedia. It's a good question. I would imagine both.

[Hayasa]

http://i39.tinypic.com/1zcpvms.gif

http://i39.tinypic.com/1zcpvms.gif

[Hayasa]

From: http://dodecad.blogspot.ca/2011/01/admixture-analysis-with-dodecad.html

Comprehensive comparisons
http://i43.tinypic.com/2mn2iko.png
http://i43.tinypic.com/2mn2iko.png

http://i39.tinypic.com/2zp03si.png
http://i39.tinypic.com/2zp03si.png
http://i44.tinypic.com/xdi728.png

[Hayasa]

In the second figure above, the "South Asian" component (light blue) is more strongly expressed in Turks than in Armenians. Armenians have more West Asian (light purple). Turks and Armenians have about the same amount of South European (pink). Turks have significant "Northeast Asian" and "East Asian", that Armenians lack.

[Hayasa]

http://i40.tinypic.com/2i1gkug.png

Taken from: http://dienekes.blogspot.ca/2011/05/central-asian-element-in-turks-part-3.html

[Hayasa]

Turks have 0.2 North African - while Armenians have 0.

Turks have 3.7 South Asian - while Armenians have 2.

Turks have 0.1 - 0.6 (diaspora) East African - while Armenians have 0.

Turks have 0.1 - 0.4 Sub-Saharan African - while Armenians have 0.

[Hayasa]

http://i42.tinypic.com/2m3fc45.png

[Hayasa]

Some Crowd photos of Armenians:
http://i43.tinypic.com/30seslu.jpg

[Hayasa]

This is an Armenian elementary school in Tehran, 1968
http://i42.tinypic.com/33agx81.jpg

[Hayasa]

Armenian Catholic nuns
http://i41.tinypic.com/2ik6t6q.jpg

[Hayasa]

Armenian-American rug-weavers
http://i41.tinypic.com/oko28n.jpg

[Hayasa]

http://i44.tinypic.com/3502tlj.jpg

[Hayasa]

http://i44.tinypic.com/2jb8r6c.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/2wlv86w.png

[Hayasa]

http://i42.tinypic.com/23u7vcp.png
http://i43.tinypic.com/2e184zn.png

[Hayasa]

http://i44.tinypic.com/mvoh7c.png

[Hayasa]

http://i40.tinypic.com/jgps2t.png

[Hayasa]

http://i41.tinypic.com/31329ht.png

[Hayasa]

http://i41.tinypic.com/k54t3l.png

[Hayasa]

http://i40.tinypic.com/wivdqu.jpg

[Hayasa]

Kharabagh (Artsakh)
http://i40.tinypic.com/69jo5c.jpg

[Hayasa]

http://i41.tinypic.com/141l9mw.jpg

[Hayasa]

Armenians in Singapore
http://i43.tinypic.com/w8qio3.jpg

[Hayasa]

http://i43.tinypic.com/ieqp8l.jpg
Armenian Cathedral in St. Leon
http://i42.tinypic.com/9sgsps.jpg