The Irish Slave Trade – The Forgotten “White” Slaves

[Kastrioti1443]

They came as slaves; vast human cargo transported on tall British ships bound for the Americas. They were shipped by the hundreds of thousands and included men, women, and even the youngest of children.

Whenever they rebelled or even disobeyed an order, they were punished in the harshest ways. Slave owners would hang their human property by their hands and set their hands or feet on fire as one form of punishment. They were burned alive and had their heads placed on pikes in the marketplace as a warning to other captives.

We don’t really need to go through all of the gory details, do we? We know all too well the atrocities of the African slave trade.

But, are we talking about African slavery? King James II and Charles I also led a continued effort to enslave the Irish. Britain’s famed Oliver Cromwell furthered this practice of dehumanizing one’s next door neighbor.

The Irish slave trade began when James II sold 30,000 Irish prisoners as slaves to the New World. His Proclamation of 1625 required Irish political prisoners be sent overseas and sold to English settlers in the West Indies. By the mid 1600s, the Irish were the main slaves sold to Antigua and Montserrat. At that time, 70% of the total population of Montserrat were Irish slaves.

Ireland quickly became the biggest source of human livestock for English merchants. The majority of the early slaves to the New World were actually white.

From 1641 to 1652, over 500,000 Irish were killed by the English and another 300,000 were sold as slaves. Ireland’s population fell from about 1,500,000 to 600,000 in one single decade. Families were ripped apart as the British did not allow Irish dads to take their wives and children with them across the Atlantic. This led to a helpless population of homeless women and children. Britain’s solution was to auction them off as well.

During the 1650s, over 100,000 Irish children between the ages of 10 and 14 were taken from their parents and sold as slaves in the West Indies, Virginia and New England. In this decade, 52,000 Irish (mostly women and children) were sold to Barbados and Virginia. Another 30,000 Irish men and women were also transported and sold to the highest bidder. In 1656, Cromwell ordered that 2000 Irish children be taken to Jamaica and sold as slaves to English settlers.

Many people today will avoid calling the Irish slaves what they truly were: Slaves. They’ll come up with terms like “Indentured Servants” to describe what occurred to the Irish. However, in most cases from the 17th and 18th centuries, Irish slaves were nothing more than human cattle.

As an example, the African slave trade was just beginning during this same period. It is well recorded that African slaves, not tainted with the stain of the hated Catholic theology and more expensive to purchase, were often treated far better than their Irish counterparts.

African slaves were very expensive during the late 1600s (50 Sterling). Irish slaves came cheap (no more than 5 Sterling). If a planter whipped or branded or beat an Irish slave to death, it was never a crime. A death was a monetary setback, but far cheaper than killing a more expensive African. The English masters quickly began breeding the Irish women for both their own personal pleasure and for greater profit. Children of slaves were themselves slaves, which increased the size of the master’s free workforce. Even if an Irish woman somehow obtained her freedom, her kids would remain slaves of her master. Thus, Irish moms, even with this new found emancipation, would seldom abandon their kids and would remain in servitude.

In time, the English thought of a better way to use these women (in many cases, girls as young as 12) to increase their market share: The settlers began to breed Irish women and girls with African men to produce slaves with a distinct complexion. These new “mulatto” slaves brought a higher price than Irish livestock and, likewise, enabled the settlers to save money rather than purchase new African slaves. This practice of interbreeding Irish females with African men went on for several decades and was so widespread that, in 1681, legislation was passed “forbidding the practice of mating Irish slave women to African slave men for the purpose of producing slaves for sale.” In short, it was stopped only because it interfered with the profits of a large slave transport company.

England continued to ship tens of thousands of Irish slaves for more than a century. Records state that, after the 1798 Irish Rebellion, thousands of Irish slaves were sold to both America and Australia. There were horrible abuses of both African and Irish captives. One British ship even dumped 1,302 slaves into the Atlantic Ocean so that the crew would have plenty of food to eat.

There is little question that the Irish experienced the horrors of slavery as much (if not more in the 17th Century) as the Africans did. There is, also, very little question that those brown, tanned faces you witness in your travels to the West Indies are very likely a combination of African and Irish ancestry. In 1839, Britain finally decided on it’s own to end it’s participation in Satan’s highway to hell and stopped transporting slaves. While their decision did not stop pirates from doing what they desired, the new law slowly concluded THIS chapter of nightmarish Irish misery.

But, if anyone, black or white, believes that slavery was only an African experience, then they’ve got it completely wrong.

Irish slavery is a subject worth remembering, not erasing from our memories.

But, where are our public (and PRIVATE) schools???? Where are the history books? Why is it so seldom discussed?

Do the memories of hundreds of thousands of Irish victims merit more than a mention from an unknown writer?

Or is their story to be one that their English pirates intended: To (unlike the African book) have the Irish story utterly and completely disappear as if it never happened.

None of the Irish victims ever made it back to their homeland to describe their ordeal. These are the lost slaves; the ones that time and biased history books conveniently forgot.


http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish-slave-trade-the-forgotten-white-slaves

[Smeagol]

The schools in America only talk about darkie slavery, to make Whites feel guilty.

[Kastrioti1443]

Those nr are terrible.

[KidMulat]

*sigh* people who use the Irish Slave experience as wedge against any reparation forget key facts

1.Their servitude COULD NOT be passed down
2.The women often married the very African men those men marrying for the very reason written above
3.Most Irish after their servitude became small farmers themselves, amassing wealth and getting slaves themselves
4.After Bacon's Rebellion in the United States they were given priority and rights beyond the measure of African Slaves, reinforced racialized notions of class and ranked and facilitated the discrimination of free and freed black population

The experience of white indentured servants and African slaves were different, I don't know why people want to say its the exact same thing.

[Loki]

The experience of white indentured servants and African slaves were different, I don't know why people want to say its the exact same thing.

You're right.

[Kastrioti1443]

*sigh* people who use the Irish Slave experience as wedge against any reparation forget key facts

1.Their servitude COULD NOT be passed down
2.The women often married the very African men those men marrying for the very reason written above
3.Most Irish after their servitude became small farmers themselves, amassing wealth and getting slaves themselves
4.After Bacon's Rebellion in the United States they were given priority and rights beyond the measure of African Slaves, reinforced racialized notions of class and ranked and facilitated the discrimination of free and freed black population

The experience of white indentured servants and African slaves were different, I don't know why people want to say its the exact same thing.

From the article:

As an example, the African slave trade was just beginning during this same period. It is well recorded that African slaves, not tainted with the stain of the hated Catholic theology and more expensive to purchase, were often treated far better than their Irish counterparts.

[KidMulat]

From the article:

As an example, the African slave trade was just beginning during this same period. It is well recorded that African slaves, not tainted with the stain of the hated Catholic theology and more expensive to purchase, were often treated far better than their Irish counterparts.

At the very beginning of the Irish Slave Trade you already had the Iberian Slave Trade of Africans who by the time they got to the New World were specialized in a needed skill (One brought Wheat to the New World, One was a master linguist, many were reknowned sailors, goldsmiths, and later rice cultivators/sugar processors/cotton growers) in Macaronesia/Senegambia the slave trade was in full swing with grummetes being instrumental in the colonies in a way illiterate and mostly subsistence farmer Irish/Scottish just weren't.

It was not until Lusophone populations started to actually incentive wars that the flow of Africans become such to being affordable.

As soon as the actual infrastructure was made by skilled slaves, any status of Africans over Europeans ended.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I really am not going to niggle over details with you KM (who has to make every thread about himself or his perceived race somehow), but yes thankfully in USA at least they were released. But only after they fought for their freedom. They didn't actually have much choice. Imagine thousands of Melonheads running around in the woods with machetes and high caliber muskets. Supposedly that's how one of the first of my ancestors got here, btw. Like I said somewhere else, Irish people have always been fighting, but our enemies were people like english, scottish, and romans none of whom had any sense of mercy or fair play in those days.


1,500,000 to 600,000 in one single decade

Here is the part most incredible to me, that gets ignored. This is a lot of reason why, like I said before, most of Ireland is really not all that Irish. Even english have got some irish mixed in but it's just not the same compared to guys like my maternal grandfather...guys like him just don't exist any more, it's like peering into the past of humanity.

Everybody has gone through some amount of slavery but actually knowing history unlike most people, and seeing how much different I am to the people around me, I feel like some relic of the past myself.

And also, I have thought that many times...great words. Pirate/Viking culture is the origin of England and if you scrape a little it's still there. Great post, thanks my friend.

[Kastrioti1443]

I really am not going to niggle over details with you KM (who has to make every thread about himself or his perceived race somehow), but yes thankfully in USA at least they were released. But only after they fought for their freedom. They didn't actually have much choice. Imagine thousands of Melonheads running around in the woods with machetes and high caliber muskets. Supposedly that's how one of the first of my ancestors got here, btw. Like I said somewhere else, Irish people have always been fighting, but our enemies were people like english, scottish, and romans none of whom had any sense of mercy or fair play in those days.



Here is the part most incredible to me, that gets ignored. This is a lot of reason why, like I said before, most of Ireland is really not all that Irish. Even english have got some irish mixed in but it's just not the same compared to guys like my maternal grandfather...guys like him just don't exist any more, it's like peering into the past of humanity.

Everybody has gone through some amount of slavery but actually knowing history unlike most people, and seeing how much different I am to the people around me, I feel like some relic of the past myself.

And also, I have thought that many times...great words. Pirate/Viking culture is the origin of England and if you scrape a little it's still there. Great post, thanks my friend.


Melonehead, personally I am shocked by this article, and I am a person who is cold blooded.... what shocked me the most are the nr and the ignoration of this very very sad and tragic part of the irish history.

[KidMulat]

I really am not going to niggle over details with you KM (who has to make every thread about himself or his perceived race somehow), but yes thankfully in USA at least they were released. But only after they fought for their freedom. They didn't actually have much choice. Imagine thousands of Melonheads running around in the woods with machetes and high caliber muskets. Supposedly that's how one of the first of my ancestors got here, btw. Like I said somewhere else, Irish people have always been fighting, but our enemies were people like english, scottish, and romans none of whom had any sense of mercy or fair play in those days.



Here is the part most incredible to me, that gets ignored. This is a lot of reason why, like I said before, most of Ireland is really not all that Irish. Even english have got some irish mixed in but it's just not the same compared to guys like my maternal grandfather...guys like him just don't exist any more, it's like peering into the past of humanity.

Everybody has gone through some amount of slavery but actually knowing history unlike most people, and seeing how much different I am to the people around me, I feel like some relic of the past myself.

And also, I have thought that many times...great words. Pirate/Viking culture is the origin of England and if you scrape a little it's still there. Great post, thanks my friend.

It's not a matter of making it personal, I have my focuses I study on and I speak on them, the Irish indentures of the Carribeans either assimilated into black communities or atleast in the lesser Antilles created small communities of incestous people unwilling to have any job they likened to black people ( They were/are the Red Legs).

The most "Irish" island to have these indentured people is of Monserrat and its mostly the black and brown populations that descend from those Irish/Scottish indentured servant as most of the white population then and now are English.

[KidMulat]

Melonehead, personally I am shocked by this article, and I am a person who is cold blooded.... what shocked me the most are the nr and the ignoration of this very very sad and tragic part of the irish history.

I first learned this in Middle school you didn't?

[KidMulat]

http://youtu.be/0QHYFXDGf4Y
The Black Irish of Monserrat

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Melonehead, personally I am shocked by this article, and I am a person who is cold blooded.... what shocked me the most are the nr and the ignoration of this very very sad and tragic part of the irish history.

It's still largely supressed by english news and history sources, which extend to america a little bit. Here is why there's been real temptation for me in the past to go back to ireland to fight, back when I was younger. I think that ireland would probably have joined EU anyway, though.

The situation in syria has some parallels to ireland in modern times, too. England funds a bunch of insurgents against irish, who conduct murder against anyone who doesn't have the right politics. But these are not indigenous factions, just hired mercenaries and ex military paid to colonize Ireland. And that is the mildest it's ever been, what continues to a small degree even today. It's really been a long term campaign of genocide and it's amazing that it hasn't been 100% successful. I can only thank my forefathers who were bigger men than I could ever be, that some of my family and people will continue on.

That's why Irish americans are a bit touchy today, and I see some of that in albanias, too. Unfortunately many or even most peoples have had to go through something similar and many are going through it today like christians in syria and egypt.

[Kastrioti1443]

It's still largely supressed by english news and history sources, which extend to america a little bit. Here is why there's been real temptation for me in the past to go back to ireland to fight, back when I was younger. I think that ireland would probably have joined EU anyway, though.

The situation in syria has some parallels to ireland in modern times, too. England funds a bunch of insurgents against irish, who conduct murder against anyone who doesn't have the right politics. But these are not indigenous factions, just hired mercenaries and ex military paid to colonize Ireland. And that is the mildest it's ever been, what continues to a small degree even today. It's really been a long term campaign of genocide and it's amazing that it hasn't been 100% successful. I can only thank my forefathers who were bigger men than I could ever be, that some of my family and people will continue on.

That's why Irish americans are a bit touchy today, and I see some of that in albanias, too. Unfortunately many or even most peoples have had to go through something similar and many are going through it today like christians in syria and egypt.


I always thought what albanians went through the ottoman asiatic invasion was the worst of the worsts, but you went worst, it is amazing how those monsters did not genocide all Ireland.... i mean holocaust is nothing compared to this, nothing....

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I always thought what albanians went through the ottoman asiatic invasion was the worst of the worsts, but you went worst, it is amazing how those monsters did not genocide all Ireland.... i mean holocaust is nothing compared to this, nothing....

Being tiny island, with neighbor that's one of most powerful in world, who has no scruples at all. Yes it's a miracle. Like I said though there has been a big 'demographic change' in Ireland over the last thousand years. Especially in north and southeast. But in a way I think there's probably more Irish than if they stayed on ireland, even if they are more mixed up.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

I really am not going to niggle over details with you KM (who has to make every thread about himself or his perceived race somehow), but yes thankfully in USA at least they were released. But only after they fought for their freedom.

Not to question your ability to tell history as it is but what rebellion, indentured slave uprising, battle, bar brawl are you speaking of when you say "they fought for their freedom" in the colonies considering you said "they were released. But ONLY after they fought for their freedom"?



They didn't actually have much choice. Imagine thousands of Melonheads running around in the woods with machetes and high caliber muskets. Supposedly that's how one of the first of my ancestors got here, btw. Like I said somewhere else, Irish people have always been fighting, but our enemies were people like english, scottish, and romans none of whom had any sense of mercy or fair play in those days.

That's quite a tale. If I didn't know better I'd think you were confusing the Irish in America for the Maroons of Jamaica. Lolz@Romans.. a Turtledove novel, perhaps?




Here is the part most incredible to me, that gets ignored. This is a lot of reason why, like I said before, most of Ireland is really not all that Irish.

Like the Duke of Wellington, am I right?


Colley: rare: Dublin etc. English, 16 cent, related to the Wellesleys all of whom were settled in the Midlands. The name is also Ir. Ó Colla in Connacht but MacLysaght quotes a sept of Roscommon called Mac Cúille or Mac Giolla Chúille as another origin. MIF.
http://www.irishtimes.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm?fuseaction=Go.&UserID=



The Colley or Cowley family had come to Ireland from Rutland about 1500; Sir Henry Colley (died 1584) married Catherine Cusack, whose grandmother was a Wellesley.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Wesley,_1st_Baron_Mornington


Rutland /ˈrʌtlənd/ is a landlocked county in central England, bounded on the west and north by Leicestershire, northeast by Lincolnshire and southeast by Northamptonshire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rutland


Even english have got some irish mixed in but it's just not the same compared to guys like my maternal grandfather...guys like him just don't exist any more, it's like peering into the past of humanity.

An Englishman is more likely to have an Irish ancestor than an Irishman having an English ancestor. There was something called "The Industrial Revolution" and people did this weird thing called "immigrate" to big cities and towns to work in factories. The Irish immigrated in huge numbers. The Anglo-Irish population was small and like the Ulster-Scots rarely took native Irish spouses. The Anglo-Irish later fled to England, mostly; they were unfortunately being attacked.


Everybody has gone through some amount of slavery but actually knowing history unlike most people, and seeing how much different I am to the people around me, I feel like some relic of the past myself.

Before schools had standards for their education system?


And also, I have thought that many times...great words. Pirate/Viking culture is the origin of England and if you scrape a little it's still there. Great post, thanks my friend.

What I love about Melonhead is he always throws in a "wtf" comment.

I'd say the Irish had it worse in Ireland in certain periods but when it comes to the colonies it's hands down Blacks had it worse. Obviously the Irish were too busy rebelling against their British American masters in the great but forgotten Boston beer brawl of 1692 that won them their freedom and so they didn't suffer nearly as much as Blacks.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Stop the bullying, Colonel Frank.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Also, it's pretty damned funny the guy you admire and use for your avatar, when you dislike me so much.

[Loki]

The Irish did not, and never have, experience the kind of discrimination that black people have.

If you look at the white American population today, then you will see that, alongside German, Irish accounts for the greatest ancestry from Europe. This means they have been well integrated into society.

[Kastrioti1443]

The Irish did not, and never have, experience the kind of discrimination that black people have.

If you look at the white American population today, then you will see that, alongside German, Irish accounts for the greatest ancestry from Europe. This means they have been well integrated into society.

These does not change the fact of the terrible numbers.... of the irish killed, slaved, raped, taken from their families..... a genocide has happened to irish and it is not a known fact.... but why???

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The Irish did not, and never have, experience the kind of discrimination that black people have.

If you look at the white American population today, then you will see that, alongside German, Irish accounts for the greatest ancestry from Europe. This means they have been well integrated into society.

Sorry but you don't know what you are talking about.

[KidMulat]

The Irish did not, and never have, experience the kind of discrimination that black people have.

If you look at the white American population today, then you will see that, alongside German, Irish accounts for the greatest ancestry from Europe. This means they have been well integrated into society.

There were three separate and distinct periods of Irish migration in the United States colonial period of indentured people, a period prior to the 1830/40's and the Potato Famine wave afterwords; those three groups had completely different American experiences and the descendants of each group were not to fond of one another.

[Loki]

Sorry but you don't know what you are talking about.

I do. Why do most white Americans have Irish ancestry, and not African?

[Smeagol]

If you look at the white American population today, then you will see that, alongside German, Irish accounts for the greatest ancestry from Europe. This means they have been well integrated into society.

That's a myth. English descendants still predominate. A lot of the so called ''Irish'' Americans are actually Scots-Irish, especially in the south.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I do. Why do most white Americans have Irish ancestry, and not African?

Potato famine and family size of 13+. Whoops. Like I said, you don't know what you are talking about.

Irish people who came over very early to america are much different than those who came later in looks as well, vast majority came later and are more mixed with english.

My cousin has 800-900 close relatives on her relativefinder thing. Irish expanded in america while English and German grew smaller.

[Loki]

That's a myth. English descendants still predominate. A lot of the so called ''Irish'' Americans are actually Scots-Irish, especially in the south.

Most of them are Scots-Irish? That could explain why white Americans are so successful.

[Loki]

Irish expanded in america while English and German grew smaller.

That's my whole point.

[Graham]

Have seen this before and I have to question the numbers. As it doesn't get mentioned much. But we know that Cromwell was genocidal in a Taliban way. Btw he is seen as a hero to England still & has a statue at the Parliament.

Edit: Also how many are actually Prisoners of War?
http://www.itraveluk.co.uk/photos/data/503/westminster-oliver-cromwell.jpg

[Smeagol]

Most of them are Scots-Irish? That could explain why white Americans are so successful.

A significant amount are. I even know Scots-Irish people who identify as just Irish. Of course there is a good amount of real Irish people too.

[Graham]

Most Irish who migrated to America came in the 19th Century, with the famine. Before that time, it was Scots-Irish.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

That's my whole point.

So you are saying that English and Germans were discriminated against?

Your logic doesn't work.

It's hard to raise a family, and hard to make it as pioneer, too. 50% of pioneers died off in the first couple years. People tough enough and smart enough to make it as pioneers expanded bigtime (if they wanted to). Blacks didn't become catholic in big numbers either, I don't think I ever saw one at church as a kid. And back then absentee father led to kids who would not have any kids unlike today. So those who got no religion or got wrong religion, haven't made it, it's as simple as that.

No matter how much of retard you are or your race, catholic church will do a lot to help care for your family so it's too bad more of them did not come to the church.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Most Irish who migrated to America came in the 19th Century, with the famine. Before that time, it was Scots-Irish.

Yes of all the irish people I know, none trace back that far, unless they are related to me. To my knowledge anyway. Some came from famine, some came to midwest as farmers even later.

Anyway whatever, someone not well versed in british isles history isn't going to have an opinion that matters, and many who do have quite the bias.

I think it's funny to say there's no animosity when Albion is pissed off any time I mention anything Irish related. There used to be even here animosity like that when I was younger and occasional fights over it.

[Loki]

So you are saying that English and Germans were discriminated against?


No. They all loved each other, that's why most Americans are mixed. That was my point.



No matter how much of retard you are or your race,


That's a new one :D



catholic church will do a lot to help care for your family so it's too bad more of them did not come to the church.

Thanks, but no thanks. None of my family have been Catholics for the past 500 years or so. In fact, my ancestors were persecuted for their religion by the Catholics. Some of them were burnt alive, publicly executed, others had all their possessions confiscated by the French king, and they had to start new lives from scratch in South Africa.

[KidMulat]

These does not change the fact of the terrible numbers.... of the irish killed, slaved, raped, taken from their families..... a genocide has happened to irish and it is not a known fact.... but why???


So you are saying that English and Germans were discriminated against?

Your logic doesn't work.

It's hard to raise a family, and hard to make it as pioneer, too. 50% of pioneers died off in the first couple years. People tough enough and smart enough to make it as pioneers expanded bigtime (if they wanted to). Blacks didn't become catholic in big numbers either, I don't think I ever saw one at church as a kid. And back then absentee father led to kids who would not have any kids unlike today. So those who got no religion or got wrong religion, haven't made it, it's as simple as that.

No matter how much of retard you are or your race, catholic church will do a lot to help care for your family so it's too bad more of them did not come to the church.

Louisiana, Southern Alabama/Mississipi, Panhandle Florida were all Catholic black and Brown strongholds well after Anglo-Protestant Takeover

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Stop the bullying, Colonel Frank.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_hFTR6qyEo

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Also, it's pretty damned funny the guy you admire and use for your avatar, when you dislike me so much.

You mean the actor or the half dozen men that character was based on? You have to excuse me but I don't understand stupid very well. What idiotic belief do have about my avatar? Perhaps you're a descendent of a fictional character?

I don't admire the character. I do, however, think the character is funny. The character was a fool who risked the lives of his men... but he was funny.

[Celxon]

Most Irish who migrated to America came in the 19th Century, with the famine. Before that time, it was Scots-Irish.

That's not entirely correct. It's true that the majority of Irish people from Connacht/Leinster/Munster immigrated during and after the famine, but many of them were in colonial America before the first major immigration of the Ulster Scottish. I know this from family history, as well as general history. It's true that most Irish Americans, before the 1840s, came from Ulster, though. Still, the contributions and population of the Old Stock southern Irish is denied or downplayed by many people. The same thing holds true for the Scots-Irish in different ways. In my research, I noticed a small wave of southern Irish followed by a large wave of northern Irish followed by a large wave of southern Irish. Some families' ancestors came from all three groups.

[KidMulat]

...

[Celxon]

White slaves weren't just Irish. Some of them came from other countries. You just had to get on the bad side of the monarch or the tyrant in charge at the time. Cromwell was responsible for much of the White slave trade. He was more of a religious fanatic than a nationalistic dictator. Catholic Irishmen, who converted to Protestantism, were relatively safe from his wrath. The Anglo-Irish and Norman Irish, who kept their old faith, weren't. He exiled more than a few people, of English descent, to Connacht. Non-Catholic Gaelic Irish people fared better than they did. Of course, thousands of Gaelic Irish people were victims of Cromwell's war crimes, but my point was that "papists" were in his crosshairs, no matter what their ethnicity was. Many or most of them were Gaelic Irish, so more of them suffered. If there were large groups of Catholic French in Ireland, he would have targeted them too. He targeted Catholics, and most of them were Gaels who rejected conversions to Protestantism. Some of them came to colonial America by choice or force after they lost their estates and/or freedom. Their descendants spread through the colonies. Some of them mixed with people of other backgrounds, and they became indistinguishable from other Americans.

[Weedman]

read Albion's Seed: 4 British Folkways in America, and Bound Away: Virginia and the westward movement, both by author David Hackett Fischer

many Irish were brought to the new world as indentured servants (white slaves) in the early colonial period but most of the white-indentured servants were overwhelmingly English, from New England to Barbados.

[Celxon]

read Albion's Seed: 4 British Folkways in America, and Bound Away: Virginia and the westward movement, both by author David Hackett Fischer

many Irish were brought to the new world as indentured servants (white slaves) in the early colonial period but most of the white-indentured servants were overwhelmingly English, from New England to Barbados.

Both groups (White slaves and White servants) came here. Another thing to consider is that, if we want to get technical, octoroon slaves were White slaves. They were 7/8 Caucasoid, a fact that caught the attention of a lot of abolitionists. At the absolute start of the English-owned colonies, Black arrivals were indentured.

[LightHouse89]

*sigh* people who use the Irish Slave experience as wedge against any reparation forget key facts

1.Their servitude COULD NOT be passed down
2.The women often married the very African men those men marrying for the very reason written above
3.Most Irish after their servitude became small farmers themselves, amassing wealth and getting slaves themselves
4.After Bacon's Rebellion in the United States they were given priority and rights beyond the measure of African Slaves, reinforced racialized notions of class and ranked and facilitated the discrimination of free and freed black population

The experience of white indentured servants and African slaves were different, I don't know why people want to say its the exact same thing.

Funny how Aframs think they know Irish history.

[Teyrn]

The Irish were often equated to apes by the English:

http://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/01/28/irish-apes-tactics-of-de-humanization/

Bloody disgusting.

[Teyrn]

Funny how Aframs think they know Irish history.

No one has ever been enslaved but the poor ol African darkys. A white slave has never existed, I swear it's true- no Irish slaves carted off to the New World, no slaves from Spain, France, etc., carted off to North Africa by the Barbary corsairs, etc. It's all a fairy tale! :cool:

[LightHouse89]

No one has ever been enslaved but the poor ol African darkys. A white slave has never existed, I swear it's true- no Irish slaves carted off to the New World, no slaves from Spain, France, etc., carted off to North Africa by the Barbary corsairs, etc. It's all a fairy tale! :cool:

Aframs create this propaganda that they have had it the hardest in history. Their people always being mistreated by JUST white people etc... They are full of themselves. Watch out if you disagree with them they get madd as hell and will troll the shit out of you.

[Teyrn]

Aframs create this propaganda that they have had it the hardest in history. Their people always being mistreated by JUST white people etc... They are full of themselves. Watch out if you disagree with them they get madd as hell and will troll the shit out of you.

I don't buy into that PC bullshit; blacks have to own their own mistakes and stop blaming whitey (whites, white liberals, do deserve blame but not all of it). For example:

I can just show them the picture of the man who ruined Detroit: Mayor Coleman Young.

42475

[KidMulat]

Funny how Aframs think they know Irish history.

I am of Irish Indentured descent you simpleton Benjamin Benneker and most African Americans who have early colonial era free ancestors came from Irish Women, nearly all maternal branches of Melungeons are group of most black and white roots have ancestry from Irish women who had free children and like the Irish indentured servants of the Carribean most of these people mixed with people the worked with Black Indentured servant and Black Slaves,

[LightHouse89]

I am of Irish Indentured descent you simpleton Benjamin Benneker and most African Americans who have early colonial era free ancestors came from Irish Women, nearly all maternal branches of Melungeons are group of most black and white roots have ancestry from Irish women who had free children and like the Irish indentured servants of the Carribean most of these people mixed with people the worked with Black Indentured servant and Black Slaves,

I don't give a rats ass you PC Afram.

[LightHouse89]

I don't buy into that PC bullshit; blacks have to own their own mistakes and stop blaming whitey (whites, white liberals, do deserve blame but not all of it). For example:

I can just show them the picture of the man who ruined Detroit: Mayor Coleman Young.

42475

proof they make some of the worst politicians in American history.

[KidMulat]

Aframs create this propaganda that they have had it the hardest in history. Their people always being mistreated by JUST white people etc... They are full of themselves. Watch out if you disagree with them they get madd as hell and will troll the shit out of you.

The not troll here is you; the Irish indentured Class assimilated into Black, Brown, and Native American communities save for the Red Legs of St. Lucia and Barbados nearly all of them intermixed with their fellow bondsmen.

The propaganda is actually suggesting that the majority of Irish Americans who came around the Potato Famine have any right to claim the history of a people whose descendants have faces as brown as my own.

[KidMulat]

I don't give a rats ass you PC Afram.

Live in your ignorance I will be here to correct to you.

[LightHouse89]

Live in your ignorance I will be here to correct to you.

Lie in your Afram world. First you were creole [they aren't irish at all] and now you are Irish-Afram. Give me a break. Next you will be a Germano-Afram. Your so full of yourself and with promoting your Afram agenda.

[KidMulat]

Lie in your Afram world. First you were creole [they aren't irish at all] and now you are Irish-Afram. Give me a break. Next you will be a Germano-Afram. Your so full of yourself and with promoting your Afram agenda.

I have stated this time and time again, I am a Creole and an AfrAm who primarily identifies as a Creole. I come from Zambos and Mulattos and Blacks, I come from slaves and mixed race slave masters my immediate ancestors come from Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana but if you read my posts on here and ABF I have stated many of those people roots go back from Virginia and South Carolina and elsewhere.

If your ass can't follow than so be it but don't call me a liar because you can't keep track.

[Celxon]

The propaganda is actually suggesting that the majority of Irish Americans who came around the Potato Famine have any right to claim the history of a people whose descendants have faces as brown as my own.

Will you make an exception for individuals descended from White slaves in Montserrat, as well as various colonies in the New World? Some of them might have been the ancestors of Irishmen who came here in 1845.

[Teyrn]

I have stated this time and time again, I am a Creole and an AfrAm who primarily identifies as a Creole. I come from Zambos and Mulattos and Blacks, I come from slaves and mixed race slave masters my immediate ancestors come from Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana but if you read my posts on here and ABF I have stated many of those people roots go back from Virginia and South Carolina and elsewhere.

If your ass can't follow than so be it but don't call me a liar because you can't keep track.

And by your posts here you seem to enjoy shoving your coloredness up in the face of anyone and everyone who happens by who happens to disagree with you. Race card eh.....

Do you want a gold star for being colored- and the descendant of slaves? How about a "STFU" instead? Have you ever been told that by a white person? I'm sure you haven't. I don't give a shit about your PC-oriented garbage so any special pleading about "oh woe is us poor blacks cause whitey enslaved us!" is going to excite only my sheerest contempt.

Yeah some real sorry shit happened to your ancestors and few centuries ago- big effing deal. Give me a "thank you" because 100s of thousands of white men died in a war that helped to free your people from being slaves down south. No..? Yes..?

Also- welcome to the real world- people having been doing sick shit to each other since as long as humans have been on this earth. African slavery was a nasty affair but you blacks carry it around like the proverbial millstone about your necks.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

*sigh* people who use the Irish Slave experience as wedge against any reparation forget key facts

1.Their servitude COULD NOT be passed down
2.The women often married the very African men those men marrying for the very reason written above
3.Most Irish after their servitude became small farmers themselves, amassing wealth and getting slaves themselves
4.After Bacon's Rebellion in the United States they were given priority and rights beyond the measure of African Slaves, reinforced racialized notions of class and ranked and facilitated the discrimination of free and freed black population

The experience of white indentured servants and African slaves were different, I don't know why people want to say its the exact same thing.

Mostly bullshit, and like usual you know jack and shit about every subject you open your mouth on.

Irish slaves were mostly killed off. Maybe a handful have ancestors today, aside from my family I never even heard of anyone. Irish who came later were mostly killed off as well, in jobs that were considered too dangerous to waste a black slave on.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

It's not a matter of making it personal, I have my focuses I study on and I speak on them, the Irish indentures of the Carribeans either assimilated into black communities or atleast in the lesser Antilles created small communities of incestous people unwilling to have any job they likened to black people ( They were/are the Red Legs).

The most "Irish" island to have these indentured people is of Monserrat and its mostly the black and brown populations that descend from those Irish/Scottish indentured servant as most of the white population then and now are English.

Of course it's all about you.

What kind of fucking asshole reads about slavery then says "oh yeah my slavery was worse!". What the flying fuck is wrong with you? Even if that is your (retarded) opinion then keep it to yourself, this thread is nothing to do with blacks. You have seen that 9999293 other threads are already about blacks already. Go post your retarded bullshit in there.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

The Irish did not, and never have, experience the kind of discrimination that black people have.

If you look at the white American population today, then you will see that, alongside German, Irish accounts for the greatest ancestry from Europe. This means they have been well integrated into society.

No, it was much worse back in the days they spoke irish tongue, and the catholic-protestant rift was going strong. The irish were also much more unruly in captivity and mostly got killed of because of it.

[Teyrn]

Of course it's all about you.

What kind of fucking asshole reads about slavery then says "oh yeah my slavery was worse!". What the flying fuck is wrong with you? Even if that is your (retarded) opinion then keep it to yourself, this thread is nothing to do with blacks. You have seen that 9999293 other threads are already about blacks already. Go post your retarded bullshit in there.

A egoist, someone with a victim mentality, etc. The stuff I've read of black slavery is cringe-worthy but the blacks aren't the only ones to ever have been enslaved in a grisly fashion (something they largely refuse to accept because it conflicts with the common notions of reality).

[Prisoner Of Ice]

A egoist, someone with a victim mentality, etc. The stuff I've read of black slavery is cringe-worthy but the blacks aren't the only ones to ever have been enslaved in a grisly fashion (something they largely refuse to accept because it conflicts with the common notions of reality).

Actually, a racist, which is what he is. He could easily have come and shown some decency in here, certainly irish people have been the most sympathetic towards blacks of anyone, for all the good it's done.

[Celxon]

Mostly bullshit, and like usual you know jack and shit about every subject you open your mouth on.

Irish slaves were mostly killed off. Maybe a handful have ancestors today, aside from my family I never even heard of anyone. Irish who came later were mostly killed off as well, in jobs that were considered too dangerous to waste a black slave on.

The "lazy" Irish were instrumental in building America's vital canals and railroads. They often fared better in rural regions than in urban regions, to the point where they became community leaders. They weren't distinguishable from the rest of the folks if they converted to Evangelical Protestantism. In fact, many rural communities embraced Gaelic culture, and their Irish neighbors were well liked.

[Teyrn]

Actually, a racist, which is what he is. He could easily have come and shown some decency in here, certainly irish people have been the most sympathetic towards blacks of anyone, for all the good it's done.

These politically-indoctrinated blacks are some of the worst to deal with- it's all about them so to speak and no one else's suffering is applicable since no one else has had it as bad in time and in space as they have, etc. One would think all blacks in the New World were enslaved by the way- when this isn't true at all. There were blacks in North America who owned slaves themselves (but of course I'm wrong since I'm a white man). :lol: :rolleyes:

[Prisoner Of Ice]

These politically-indoctrinated blacks are some of the worst to deal with- it's all about them so to speak and no one else's suffering is applicable since no one else has had it as bad in time and in space as they have, etc. One would think all blacks in the New World were enslaved by the way- when this isn't true at all. There were blacks in North America who owned slaves themselves (but of course I'm wrong since I'm a white man). :lol: :rolleyes:

What really irritates me is he is more like 1/4 black, really he's hispanic I guess. But whatever, I usually don't care but the attention whoring can be saved for a more appropriate place. If the situation were reversed the butthurt over race baiting would have the forum in flames.

[Celxon]

certainly irish people have been the most sympathetic towards blacks of anyone, for all the good it's done.

Not to be argumentative, but that's not true. Look at the Boston bussing riots in the 1900s and the New York City draft riots in the 1800s. Irish people, not just Northern Irish people, had slaves too. Google "Bull Connor" while you're at it.

[Smeagol]

Well kidmulat, good job ruining another thread with your off topic nonsense.:picard1:

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Not to be argumentative, but that's not true. Look at the Boston bussing riots in the 1900s and the New York City draft riots in the 1800s. Irish people, not just Northern Irish people, had slaves too. Google "Bull Connor" while you're at it.

Scots-irish had all the slaves, or very nearly all of them.

As for bussing riots, if people weren't pussies they'd riot today. Bussing everyone around is ridiculous.

[Teyrn]

What really irritates me is he is more like 1/4 black, really he's hispanic I guess. But whatever, I usually don't care but the attention whoring can be saved for a more appropriate place. If the situation were reversed the butthurt over race baiting would have the forum in flames.

Eh? So the guy isn't even majority black but some braggart instead? :confused:

[KidMulat]

Will you make an exception for individuals descended from White slaves in Montserrat, as well as various colonies in the New World? Some of them might have been the ancestors of Irishmen who came here in 1845.

I made a post about that on the second page, they all intermixed with the black population just look at the video.

[KidMulat]

And by your posts here you seem to enjoy shoving your coloredness up in the face of anyone and everyone who happens by who happens to disagree with you. Race card eh.....

Do you want a gold star for being colored- and the descendant of slaves? How about a "STFU" instead? Have you ever been told that by a white person? I'm sure you haven't. I don't give a shit about your PC-oriented garbage so any special pleading about "oh woe is us poor blacks cause whitey enslaved us!" is going to excite only my sheerest contempt.

Yeah some real sorry shit happened to your ancestors and few centuries ago- big effing deal. Give me a "thank you" because 100s of thousands of white men died in a war that helped to free your people from being slaves down south. No..? Yes..?

Also- welcome to the real world- people having been doing sick shit to each other since as long as humans have been on this earth. African slavery was a nasty affair but you blacks carry it around like the proverbial millstone about your necks.

Call it PC, most of the Irish "Slaves" intermixed with Black Slaves and therefore using them as a wedge to show "Blacks aren't the only ones who were treated bad" is inaccurate because most Irish Slaves and Black Slave are in Black Americans today.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Anyway, to make a long story short, the irish case wasn't slavery, it was genocide. I hate to go into the black versus irish part of it but the point of it all for the irish was to wipe them out, and that's what happened. For blacks it was to make money and blacks in US have actually grown to large numbers from just a small initial amount of importation of slaves.

Irish who came over that way are mostly gone except those mixed into black population in the carribean. Not that being forced to slavery then raped and forced to marry black guy so he can get his freedom is a much better fate but at least they have descendents I guess.

[LightHouse89]

These politically-indoctrinated blacks are some of the worst to deal with- it's all about them so to speak and no one else's suffering is applicable since no one else has had it as bad in time and in space as they have, etc. One would think all blacks in the New World were enslaved by the way- when this isn't true at all. There were blacks in North America who owned slaves themselves (but of course I'm wrong since I'm a white man). :lol: :rolleyes:

because only one ethnic group can cry in America. They ont want anyone else mentioning wrong doing against them. PC Aframs cannot have it they need to look oppressed all the time an be the only oppressed people in America.

[Celxon]

Scots-irish had all the slaves, or very nearly all of them.

As for bussing riots, if people weren't pussies they'd riot today. Bussing everyone around is ridiculous.

Where is your proof for that assertion? Irish people had slaves, and I never found out what their portion was as a population. Many Ulster Scottish people were too poor to enslave Black people, but they had slaves too. In the South, it was not unusual for Irish people to be richer than other people. They rose to the top of society in some places because they weren't bound and chained by statist interference. Look at "Gone With The Wind". "Scarlet O'Hara was based on the Georgia author's forebears. As for forced bussing for racial integration, it was an idiotic program that helped few people improve their education.

[Teyrn]

because only one ethnic group can cry in America. They ont want anyone else mentioning wrong doing against them. PC Aframs cannot have it they need to look oppressed all the time an be the only oppressed people in America.

Do you know what's hilarious, ironic, and sad? Blacks in America consistently whine about slavery in America, when ended 150 years ago, but say NOTHING at all about the black slavery that is still taking place in Africa. It's contemptible and disgusting.

[LightHouse89]

Not to be argumentative, but that's not true. Look at the Boston bussing riots in the 1900s and the New York City draft riots in the 1800s. Irish people, not just Northern Irish people, had slaves too. Google "Bull Connor" while you're at it.

in the 1800s irish immigrants did not own slaves. I don't know where this BS comes from but its BS.

[LightHouse89]

I have stated this time and time again, I am a Creole and an AfrAm who primarily identifies as a Creole. I come from Zambos and Mulattos and Blacks, I come from slaves and mixed race slave masters my immediate ancestors come from Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana but if you read my posts on here and ABF I have stated many of those people roots go back from Virginia and South Carolina and elsewhere.

If your ass can't follow than so be it but don't call me a liar because you can't keep track.

But also Irish slaves? Whats next you are related to the last ruling Kaiser? Give me a break. PC Afarms :picard1:

[LightHouse89]

And by your posts here you seem to enjoy shoving your coloredness up in the face of anyone and everyone who happens by who happens to disagree with you. Race card eh.....

Do you want a gold star for being colored- and the descendant of slaves? How about a "STFU" instead? Have you ever been told that by a white person? I'm sure you haven't. I don't give a shit about your PC-oriented garbage so any special pleading about "oh woe is us poor blacks cause whitey enslaved us!" is going to excite only my sheerest contempt.

Yeah some real sorry shit happened to your ancestors and few centuries ago- big effing deal. Give me a "thank you" because 100s of thousands of white men died in a war that helped to free your people from being slaves down south. No..? Yes..?

Also- welcome to the real world- people having been doing sick shit to each other since as long as humans have been on this earth. African slavery was a nasty affair but you blacks carry it around like the proverbial millstone about your necks.

I thought of creating a thread on racism towards German migrants here but we all know political motivated KidMulat will open up on there claiming to be descended from the last Kaiser's servants or something. I have a big laugh at some of what she says.

[Celxon]

I made a post about that on the second page, they all intermixed with the black population just look at the video.

I doubt that *all* of them did that in colonial America (not just the Caribbean). We're on the same page when it comes to Monserrat. Still, some of those first slaves' descendants might have come here from Ireland in 1845. It's almost impossible to know the names of the people (not all of them Irish, by the way) who were separated from their loved ones when they were enslaved and shipped by Cromwell's cronies.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Where is your proof for that assertion? Irish people had slaves, and I never found out what their portion was as a population. Many Ulster Scottish people were too poor to enslave Black people, but they had slaves too. In the South, it was not unusual for Irish people to be richer than other people. They rose to the top of society in some places because they weren't bound and chained by statist interference. Look at "Gone With The Wind". "Scarlet O'Hara was based on the Georgia author's forebears. As for forced bussing for racial integration, it was an idiotic program that helped few people improve their education.

Proof is just history, go and get a book or something.

The irish people in the south were scots-irish, that's just a fact.

The irish who were enslaved were basically wiped out and few remnants were mainly in the north.

The ones who came in potato famine mostly went to new orleans and boston.

Ones who fought in civil war right off the boat, fought for the north.

There's nothing wrong with being scots-irish but it's not the same thing at all. If it really doesn't matter what your ethnicity is to belong to a country, you would not mention you are irish at all just american.

[LightHouse89]

Do you know what's hilarious, ironic, and sad? Blacks in America consistently whine about slavery in America, when ended 150 years ago, but say NOTHING at all about the black slavery that is still taking place in Africa. It's contemptible and disgusting.

Why should they when the media worships them? Rap culture rock etc.... all invented by Aframs. Now rock wasn't bad in the 1950s and before as it did not preach criminal behavior. Anyway they want to be the center of attention with everything. They realize their influence is fading as African immigrants come to America and are thirty times more intelligent than them and cause not even half the crime that Aframs create. Aframs are just crybabies that try to justify their existence by complaining and being counterproductive. If anything they are big babies crying because they want their binky.

[Celxon]

in the 1800s irish immigrants did not own slaves. I don't know where this BS comes from but its BS.

It wasn't BS, and it wasn't what I said. I was *not* referring to immigrants who came to the North in 1845. I was referring to Southerners with ancestral links and ties to what's now the Republic of Ireland. By the way, one of the best generals in the CSA was born in the ROI.

[LightHouse89]

It wasn't BS, and it wasn't what I said. I was *not* referring to immigrants who came to the North in 1845. I was referring to Southerners with ancestral links and ties to what's now the Republic of Ireland. By the way, one of the best generals in the CSA was born in the ROI.

Oh I was confused for a second forgive my ignorance.

[Celxon]

Proof is just history, go and get a book or something.

The irish people in the south were scots-irish, that's just a fact.

The irish who were enslaved were basically wiped out and few remnants were mainly in the north.

The ones who came in potato famine mostly went to new orleans and boston.

Ones who fought in civil war right off the boat, fought for the north.

There's nothing wrong with being scots-irish but it's not the same thing at all. If it really doesn't matter what your ethnicity is to belong to a country, you would not mention you are irish at all just american.

Most of them were, but some of them weren't, and *that's* just a fact. I should know since three of my grandparents are descended from ancestors from the ROI. They came both before and after the main wave of Ulster Scottish. One ancestor might have led a life of indentured servitude in Virginia. Another one was forced out of his job as a Jacobite officer by an ungrateful Irishman when he converted to Protestantism. His clan fought for Irish leaders for hundreds of years, but the bigot and ingrate kicked him out of the army. By the way, look at my avatar. Do you know who that is?

Also, the Confederate forces had both Irish and Ulster Scottish members, as well as people of other ethnicities. Cleburne was Irish by birth, and he was known as the Stonewall Jackson of the West. The Union forces had more Irish soldiers because more Irish people lived in the northern states, which is just common sense. You are trapped in a false paradigm based on anthroboard fantasies, repeated myths unquestionably accepted as facts.

[Celxon]

Oh I was confused for a second forgive my ignorance.

All is forgiven. This thread certainly *can* get confusing at times. Maybe it's best not to confuse people with facts when fables and insults are more satisfying to them. That's assuming that they're not engaging in some kind of extended comedic performance art.:rolleyes:

[KidMulat]

But also Irish slaves? Whats next you are related to the last ruling Kaiser? Give me a break. PC Afarms :picard1:

http://i43.tinypic.com/257ot4p.jpg

I descend from this woman whose mother was a tri-racial slave from Virigina, both our oral history and the historical record shows the area from which her mother was bought had inhabited had been an era in which the children of formerly indentured white men, native women, and black women/men where not given the right to freedom after the this law


WHEREAS some doubts have arrisen whether children got by any Englishman upon a Negro woman should be slave or free, Be it therefore enacted and declared by this present grand assembly, that all children borne in this country shalbe held bond or free only according to the condition of the mother, And that if any christian shall committ ffornication with a Negro man or woman, hee or shee soe offending shall pay double the ffines imposed by the former act.38

Was put in place. Again, I mentioned this before; this is not new.

[Celxon]

Proof is just history, go and get a book or something.

:D I read both major books about the Ulster Scottish in America. I know my heritage and my history more than you do. The difference is that I went from elementary school math to university calculus. Historical events are more complicated than "Dick and Jane Came from Ulster".

[KidMulat]

Mostly bullshit, and like usual you know jack and shit about every subject you open your mouth on.

Irish slaves were mostly killed off. Maybe a handful have ancestors today, aside from my family I never even heard of anyone. Irish who came later were mostly killed off as well, in jobs that were considered too dangerous to waste a black slave on.


The degree of cooperation between blacks and lower-class whites was far more attenuated in the Lowcountry than in the Chesapeake--and this, of course, applied to interracial sexual relations as in other spheres. The reason was simple: South Carolina never had a substantial class of white indentured servants. There was therefore little basis for the anxieties about the sexual preferences of white servant women that existed in the Chesapeake. Furthermore, South Carolina had fewer nonslaveholding whites than the Chesapeake and therefore less need or occasion to encourage caste consciousness by outlawing interracial marriages. In the Lowcountry, as in the plantation societies of the West Indies, the yawning social chasm between most whites and most blacks bred a self-confidence about the unthinkability of interracial marriage that was absent in the Chesapeake. Whereas interracial marriage did not have to be prohibited, open concubinage between male planters and female slaves could be treated more casually than elsewhere in North America, precisely because it presented less of a danger to fundamental social distinctions. Nevertheless, in spite of these social realities, sexual relations between whites and blacks probably occurred more frequently in the seventeenth than in the eighteenth century. And, although white servant women were few in early South Carolina, enough of them gave birth to mulatto children that the assembly took notice. In 1717, it legislated against such behavior.

http://www.freeafricanamericans.com/foreword.htm

History and Genealogy of Melungeons
http://www.jogg.info/72/files/Estes.pdf

Ira Berlin introduction to the book Atlantic Creoles
http://www.freeafricanamericans.com/foreword.htm

The creation of chattel slavery-race based connection in Colonial America as a result of Bacon's Rebellion
https://www.msu.edu/course/ams/285/unit6/vaco_6.html

Its not unfounded its history, it is fact.


And by your posts here you seem to enjoy shoving your coloredness up in the face of anyone and everyone who happens by who happens to disagree with you. Race card eh.....

Do you want a gold star for being colored- and the descendant of slaves? How about a "STFU" instead? Have you ever been told that by a white person? I'm sure you haven't. I don't give a shit about your PC-oriented garbage so any special pleading about "oh woe is us poor blacks cause whitey enslaved us!" is going to excite only my sheerest contempt.

Yeah some real sorry shit happened to your ancestors and few centuries ago- big effing deal. Give me a "thank you" because 100s of thousands of white men died in a war that helped to free your people from being slaves down south. No..? Yes..?

Also- welcome to the real world- people having been doing sick shit to each other since as long as humans have been on this earth. African slavery was a nasty affair but you blacks carry it around like the proverbial millstone about your necks.

I am not shoving my coloredness in here, I and most blacks with colonial heritage descend from the people being discussed. Don't make inaccurate historical statements when history is showing otherwise.

Its wrong to say white indentured servants had it worse when the laws created were primarily to punish those associating with blacks.

The Civil War did not free all the slaves, the border states and Texas did not free their slaves until years after, also I owe you nothing; my ancestors fought in the wars, lost from the war, and escaped during the war.


But by all means continue to attack me with unfounded beliefs, while I can continually pull up facts totally proving you wrong.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

During the colonial period, the Scotch-Irish settled in the southern Appalachian backcountry and in the Carolina piedmont.[19] They became the primary cultural group in these areas, and their descendants were in the vanguard of westward movement through Virginia into Tennessee and Kentucky, and thence into Arkansas, Missouri and Texas. By the 19th century, through intermarriage with settlers of English and German ancestry, the descendants of the Scotch-Irish lost their identification with Ireland. "This generation of pioneers...was a generation of Americans, not of Englishmen or Germans or Scotch-Irish."[20]

The relatively small number of Irish Catholics concentrated in a few medium-sized cities, where they were highly visible, especially in Charleston, Savannah and New Orleans.[21][22] They became local leaders in the Democratic party, generally favored preserving the Union in 1860, but became staunch Confederates after secession in 1861.[original research?][dubious – discuss]

In 1820 Irish-born John England became the first Catholic bishop in the mainly Protestant city of Charleston, South Carolina. During the 1820s and '30s, Bishop England defended the Catholic minority against Protestant prejudices. In 1831 and 1835, he established free schools for free African American children. Inflamed by the propaganda of the American Anti-Slavery Society, a mob raided the Charleston post office in 1835 and the next day turned its attention to England's school. England led Charleston's "Irish Volunteers" to defend the school. Soon after this, however, all schools for "free blacks" were closed in Charleston, and England acquiesced.[23]

Beginning as unskilled laborers, Irish Catholics in the South achieved average or above average economic status by 1900.


You can read right on wikipedia. The few Irish catholics in the south settled in the cities, not the plantations. At the time of Irish slavery there was not really any southern colonies yet but virgina, and the others came too late and didn't have the capital to start a plantation anyway.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

It wasn't BS, and it wasn't what I said. I was *not* referring to immigrants who came to the North in 1845. I was referring to Southerners with ancestral links and ties to what's now the Republic of Ireland. By the way, one of the best generals in the CSA was born in the ROI.

There was no republic of ireland then. Most of the irish in ireland got transported to connacht if they were not killed off or sold to slavery, after cromwell. I am sure some irish held slaves but I doubt many, mostly there was just no opportunity for that to happen.

[KidMulat]

You can read right on wikipedia. The few Irish catholics in the south settled in the cities, not the plantations. At the time of Irish slavery there was not really any southern colonies yet but virgina, and the others came too late and didn't have the capital to start a plantation anyway.

You are forgetting the Barbadian expansion into South Carolina, those mixed with Irish Indentured Servants became the black/white Redbones of Louisiana.

[Celxon]

You can read right on wikipedia. The few Irish catholics in the south settled in the cities, not the plantations. At the time of Irish slavery there was not really any southern colonies yet but virgina, and the others came too late and didn't have the capital to start a plantation anyway.

Are you kidding me? A historically incomplete cut-and-paste quote from a web site means squat. I don't give two cents what church they belonged to, either. Both Catholics and Protestants had ancestral ties to the area that's now the ROI. Sorry, I've researched this subject to the extent where I don't need to rely on kindergarten classes. I will soon post examples of real individuals to illustrate my point. While you're waiting, go to the "comprehensive" and "infallible" Wiki and read a bit about Cleburne. Look at two of the First Families of Virginia too. By the way, I'm not claiming that all Irish people are Rhett Butlers and Scarlet O'Haras. I just don't buy the simplistic history that "greenwashes" the lives of the first Irishmen in the colonies. Explain to me why my own surname is most common in County Mayo. Is that a trick of the devil?

[Stormer99]

*sigh* people who use the Irish Slave experience as wedge against any reparation forget key facts

1.Their servitude COULD NOT be passed down
2.The women often married the very African men those men marrying for the very reason written above
3.Most Irish after their servitude became small farmers themselves, amassing wealth and getting slaves themselves
4.After Bacon's Rebellion in the United States they were given priority and rights beyond the measure of African Slaves, reinforced racialized notions of class and ranked and facilitated the discrimination of free and freed black population

The experience of white indentured servants and African slaves were different, I don't know why people want to say its the exact same thing.

In a lot of cases, the female Irish slaves were forced to breed with the African men by the slave master. It wasn't consensual in a lot of cases. It was basically rape.

[Celxon]

There was no republic of ireland then. Most of the irish in ireland got transported to connacht if they were not killed off or sold to slavery, after cromwell. I am sure some irish held slaves but I doubt many, mostly there was just no opportunity for that to happen.

I know that. I'm obviously talking about the counties that comprise the country now. As for Connacht, explain to me why I have direct ties to that province via a forebear who settled in the American frontier before the Revolutionary War. He was as Irish as Paddy's goat, and he and his kids became Baptists, so there goes that lame "*real* Irish" theory about all Appalachian settlers.

[LightHouse89]

http://i43.tinypic.com/257ot4p.jpg

I descend from this woman whose mother was a tri-racial slave from Virigina, both our oral history and the historical record shows the area from which her mother was bought had inhabited had been an era in which the children of formerly indentured white men, native women, and black women/men where not given the right to freedom after the this law



Was put in place. Again, I mentioned this before; this is not new.

triracial LOL but you claim Irish descent and offer an Afram opinion on an Irish subject matter. You are delusional at most to me. Be jelly you don't have the luck of the irish gene.

[GrebluBro]

The schools in America only talk about darkie slavery, to make Whites feel guilty.

they also wont teach how dominant Blacks in Africa sold other Blacks for slavery..

[LightHouse89]

:D I read both major books about the Ulster Scottish in America. I know my heritage and my history more than you do. The difference is that I went from elementary school math to university calculus. Historical events are more complicated than "Dick and Jane Came from Ulster".

most ulster scots were hill folk rednecks. this isn't surprising seeing they did not own slaves in history and always vote progressively.

[Weedman]

By the way, one of the best generals in the CSA was born in the ROI.
Patrick Cleburne.

[Smeagol]

they also wont teach how dominant Blacks in Africa sold other Blacks for slavery..

True.

The slave trade existed in Sub-Saharan Africa among Negroes from time immemorial. They would fight savage tribal wars, and the losers would either be completely killed, or some sold into slavery, or even eaten (even now, pygmies are being eaten by Palaenegrids who consider them inferior). These people were savages. Eventually the Arabs, Berbers, Europeans, and even Ethiopians (who don't consider themselves black) began enslaving them. This is how it's always been in Sub-Saharan Africa actually. The more progressive elements have always dominated over the more primitive elements. Anyway, I don't feel any guilt for my ancestors enslaving the negroes.

[Weedman]

Proof is just history, go and get a book or something.

The irish people in the south were scots-irish, that's just a fact.

The irish who were enslaved were basically wiped out and few remnants were mainly in the north.

The ones who came in potato famine mostly went to new orleans and boston.

Ones who fought in civil war right off the boat, fought for the north.

.

that's only a half-truth

Out of the Irish Catholics fresh off the boat, they all fought for whatever region they settled. There were many Irish Catholics who fought for the South, most coming to America in the potato famine era or just shortly before it around 1820's/1830's and there were several Irish Catholic brigades in the C.S.A. army just like in the Union Army.

It's true most went to places like New Orleans, to work on the levies mainly, but many also settled in other urban or port areas of the Southeast especially southern Georgia, Charleston, SC and Memphis, TN to work either on railroads or levies there too.

[KidMulat]

In a lot of cases, the female Irish slaves were forced to breed with the African men by the slave master. It wasn't consensual in a lot of cases. It was basically rape.

Although one cannot say sexual coercion did not exist it would actually be pointless there were laws in places that declared enslavement was through mothers, since white women could not be enslaved the child would be free.

Now at a later date the white women were made to pay a fine and leave the Virignia colony, if they could not the woman would be indentured for 2 years and the children until 30 but they were still free.

Most colonial free people of color had white mothers/maternal ancestors to thanks to being free in the first place.

That is the reason why most left toward the Appalachians and the Frontier; the laws were becoming increasingly hostile.

On the other hand all the anti-miscegenation laws made no mention of African women at all, they were the people targeted to bear children to increase their slave.

[Celxon]

Patrick Cleburne.

Ding! There's a Patrick Cleburne cemetery in Georgia. He was almost up there with Jackson and Lee. He definitely was one of the best Confederate military leaders.

[KidMulat]

True.

The slave trade existed in Sub-Saharan Africa among Negroes from time immemorial. They would fight savage tribal wars, and the losers would either be completely killed, or some sold into slavery, or even eaten. These people were savages. Eventually the Arabs, Berbers, Europeans, and even Ethiopians (who don't consider themselves black) began enslaving them. This is how it's always been in Sub-Saharan Africa actually. The more progressive elements have always dominated over the more primitive elements. Anyway, I don't feel any guilt for my ancestors enslaving the negroes.

Actually that is incorrect; most "Africans" were mixed race or culturally Lusophone identitifed they did not see themselves as Africans http://www1.umassd.edu/specialprograms/caboVerde/jewslobban.html

Even then the slaves of most African kingdoms were more like serfs; Madam Tinubu and Queen Nzinga are two rulers of dozens who after recognizing the chattel slavery of Europeans did their best to end the flow of captives from their lands.

[KidMulat]

triracial LOL but you claim Irish descent and offer an Afram opinion on an Irish subject matter. You are delusional at most to me. Be jelly you don't have the luck of the irish gene.

I am the descendent of these Irish Slaves, my opinion is relevant because this is part of my European ancestry.

[Celxon]

that's only a half-truth

Out of the Irish Catholics fresh off the boat, they all fought for whatever region they settled. There were many Irish Catholics who fought for the South, most coming to America in the potato famine era or just shortly before it around 1820 and there were several Irish Catholic brigades in the C.S.A. army just like in the Union Army.

It's true most went to places like New Orleans, to work on the levies mainly, but many also settled in other urban or port areas of the Southeast especially southern Georgia, Charleston, SC and Memphis, TN to work either on railroads or levies there too.

Do you recall the name of the St. Louis brigade that was led by an Irish priest(?)? You're right, though. It was mostly about residency. I think that some of the confusion arises when periods of history are thrown back and forth in this thread. Old Stock Irish people could be found in both regions, even before we won our independence. I'm not claiming that they were a majority or a plurality. They definitely were here, though, and not all of them were stuck on the bottom rung of the social ladder. The father of the American Navy definitely wasn't.

[Weedman]

Ding! There's a Patrick Cleburne cemetery in Georgia. He was almost up there with Jackson and Lee. He definitely was one of the best Confederate military leaders.
oh, he's very well known in Confederate history, no doubt!

[LightHouse89]

Actually that is incorrect; most "Africans" were mixed race or culturally Lusophone identitifed they did not see themselves as Africans http://www1.umassd.edu/specialprograms/caboVerde/jewslobban.html

Even then the slaves of most African kingdoms were more like serfs; Madam Tinubu and Queen Nzinga are two rulers of dozens who after recognizing the chattel slavery of Europeans did their best to end the flow of captives from their lands.

you say the darndest things. I shall fart upon them!

[KidMulat]

you say the darndest things. I shall fart upon them!

I have records, I have history, you do not. Go fart, I have no fucks to give.

[Celxon]

most ulster scots were hill folk rednecks. this isn't surprising seeing they did not own slaves in history and always vote progressively.

That *may* be true, but there were many English and German settlers in that region. There were more than a few Welsh (Daniel Boone's mother was Welsh) too. That's likely the ethnic base to which other groups were added. "Ulster Scottish Davy Crockett" was half French, so it's better to say that they were a mixed group.

[LightHouse89]

I am the descendent of these Irish Slaves, my opinion is relevant because this is part of my European ancestry.

LOL you don't have the luck of the irish. I fart upon your stupidity. If you cannot provide a family tree r information regarding it I shall continue to fart upon your foolishness. You wish you were irish. There is a difference between being irish and wishing to be irish. Next I you will tell me you are part Alpignid Hun [German as Dr.O'funkdizzle claims].

[Weedman]

I am the descendent of these Irish Slaves, my opinion is relevant because this is part of my European ancestry.
unless one of these Irish-Europeans is like your great grandparent or something then no, your opinion is not relevant.

[LightHouse89]

That *may* be true, but there were many English and German settlers in that region. There were more than a few Welsh (Daniel Boone's mother was Welsh) too. That's likely the ethnic base to which other groups were added. "Ulster Scottish Davy Crockett" was half French, so it's better to say that they were a mixed group.

those people do not look a bit german to me. they couldnt pass a german worth a shit flying in the air. I am far more german than anything in the Appalachia area of America.

[LightHouse89]

I have records, I have history, you do not. Go fart, I have no fucks to give.

'you do not' actually sweetie I do. I have ancestral records which go back to the 1600s. Eat that PC Afram.

[KidMulat]

LOL you don't have the luck of the irish. I fart upon your stupidity. If you cannot provide a family tree r information regarding it I shall continue to fart upon your foolishness. You wish you were irish. There is a difference between being irish and wishing to be irish. Next I you will tell me you are part Alpignid Hun [German as Dr.O'funkdizzle claims].

I have nothing else to prove to you regarding my lineage, I have stated since I started on these forum my history. You are just some guy trying to rile me up with no sources or information.

Just like most of the people thumbing me down; no sources just bullshit and personal attacks of what I am.

[LightHouse89]

unless one of these Irish-Europeans is like your great grandparent or something then no, your opinion is not relevant.

exactly. Its okay for her to claim white heritage but specific tribe stuff is of limits unless the white heritage is specific.

[KidMulat]

unless one of these Irish-Europeans is like your great grandparent or something then no, your opinion is not relevant.

Who are you to make some arbitrary line, they are my ancestors you guys are trolling with no data.

[Celxon]

oh, he's very well known in Confederate history, no doubt!

He, like Jackson and Lee, greatly opposed the slave economy. He fought for the South because the people treated him like one of their own. He was a Protestant, but he *did* emigrate from Ireland. Does that make him a plastic paddy?:rolleyes:

[LightHouse89]

I have nothing else to prove to you regarding my lineage, I have stated since I started on these forum my history. You are just some guy trying to rile me up with no sources or information.

Just like most of the people thumbing me down; no sources just bullshit and personal attacks of what I am.

you have provided nothing but bullshit as far as I am concerned. Not even a picture of yourself to determine 'irish' claim. You are full of shit until otherwise. Ugly 'guy' thanks I would rather be ugly than some homosexual looking Nordic swede. 'with no sources or information' hahahah that sounds like you not me. I personally attack you because you don't provide any family records or information backing up your claims. Not only that your anti-white views precede you.

[Weedman]

those people do not look a bit german to me. they couldnt pass a german worth a shit flying in the air. I am far more german than anything in the Appalachia area of America.

I think you misinterpreted his meaning.

[Celxon]

those people do not look a bit german to me. they couldnt pass a german worth a shit flying in the air. I am far more german than anything in the Appalachia area of America.

How are Germans supposed to look? Do the Bavarians look like the Prussians? Did the people from the Palatinate look identical to the people at the far northern border? Like I said, Appalachians have been mixed from the start.

[LightHouse89]

Who are you to make some arbitrary line, they are my ancestors you guys are trolling with no data.

trolling is positive however you deserve to be trolled. Why? You spread Afram foolishness online and think you are superior. Yet you do not produce any Irish heritage which you speak of. No surnames just a picture and say your irish. If anything you must have got it from google

[Celxon]

I think you misinterpreted his meaning.

What? That never happens on this forum!;)

[Prisoner Of Ice]

that's only a half-truth

Out of the Irish Catholics fresh off the boat, they all fought for whatever region they settled. There were many Irish Catholics who fought for the South, most coming to America in the potato famine era or just shortly before it around 1820's/1830's and there were several Irish Catholic brigades in the C.S.A. army just like in the Union Army.

It's true most went to places like New Orleans, to work on the levies mainly, but many also settled in other urban or port areas of the Southeast especially southern Georgia, Charleston, SC and Memphis, TN to work either on railroads or levies there too.

I don't say none fought for the south. They were willing to fight for whichever side they lived. But there were not many Irish slave owners. Like I said there was just not much opportunity for that. I am sure you could drudge some up. There were some scots-irish slave owners but still probably a lot fewer than among the english and scottish.

[LightHouse89]

How are Germans supposed to look? Do the Bavarians look like the Prussians? Did the people from the Palatinate look identical to the people at the far northern border? Like I said, Appalachians have been mixed from the start.

bavarians are strong alpines. Prussians look more Nordic. Hessians look like Keltic-Nordids and some more close to the border of Switzerland looked more Alpine like Bavarians.

[LightHouse89]

I don't say none fought for the south. They were willing to fight for whichever side they lived. But there were not many Irish slave owners. Like I said there was just not much opportunity for that. I am sure you could drudge some up. There were some scots-irish slave owners but still probably a lot fewer than among the english and scottish.

are we referring to catholics or protestants? Catholics were not prominent land owners in America. So it would be financially impossible for an impoverished immigrant to own slaves.

[KidMulat]

you have provided nothing but bullshit as far as I am concerned. Not even a picture of yourself to determine 'irish' claim. You are full of shit until otherwise. Ugly 'guy' thanks I would rather be ugly than some homosexual looking Nordic swede. 'with no sources or information' hahahah that sounds like you not me. I personally attack you because you don't provide any family records or information backing up your claims. Not only that your anti-white views precede you.

Who knew universities and archival records are bullshit you have nothing lol Now you are trying to completely make this about me again like when you said my having African ancestry makes my opinions invalid lol

[Prisoner Of Ice]

bavarians are strong alpines. Prussians look more Nordic. Hessians look like Keltic-Nordids and some more close to the border of Switzerland looked more Alpine like Bavarians.

Yes it was mostly alpinids, seemingly.

Look at some german amish from ohio and you will know what most the "german" immigrants to US looked like.

[LightHouse89]

I think you misinterpreted his meaning.

Germans did not settle Appalachia heavily. Infact I view them more as anglo-saxon-celtic than continental german. They are very resistant in nature which is very un-German.

[KidMulat]

trolling is positive however you deserve to be trolled. Why? You spread Afram foolishness online and think you are superior. Yet you do not produce any Irish heritage which you speak of. No surnames just a picture and say your irish. If anything you must have got it from google

I am not going to put my surnames on here and I stated long before this conversation my heritage with no one challenging it now; I pity you for resorting to such anti-intellectual posturing.

[LightHouse89]

Yes it was mostly alpinids, seemingly.

Look at some german amish from ohio and you will know what most the "german" immigrants to US looked like.

same with Penn state with that group of Amish. Many people in my family look atypical German. Only a minority in my family look Keltic Nordid.

[Celxon]

I have nothing else to prove to you regarding my lineage, I have stated since I started on these forum my history. You are just some guy trying to rile me up with no sources or information.

Just like most of the people thumbing me down; no sources just bullshit and personal attacks of what I am.

For what it's worth, I'm not one of them. You know your own heritage and your own history more than anybody here. Now, I dare not bring up the Italians (June Tolliver) in the colonies. That might really open a can of worms.

[LightHouse89]

I am not going to put my surnames on here and I stated long before this conversation my heritage with no one challenging it now; I pity you for resorting to such anti-intellectual posturing.

then you are ull of shit. Irish people can detect what is irish purely on surname alone. You are descended from Afro-Saxons to me. Your not irish. If a Gael surname does not pop up you are not irish to me. Irish surnames are clan based and if you cannot provide any information then you are a fraud to me.

[LightHouse89]

I am not going to put my surnames on here and I stated long before this conversation my heritage with no one challenging it now; I pity you for resorting to such anti-intellectual posturing.

I would thumb you down if I could just to let you know. You are full of it and a typical Afram up to no good here. Go one and spread your foolishness.

[KidMulat]

For what it's worth, I'm not one of them. You know your own heritage and your own history more than anybody here. Now, I dare not bring up the Italians (June Tolliver) in the colonies. That might really open a can of worms.

No your not; I have the same people give me 20+ thumbs down everyday, they'll even look up my post history and thumbs down things from almost 2 years ago :-/ The Italians I am not too read on in Colonial America, when they start arriving in mass to NOLA though I can begin to speak more on them with some confidence.

[LightHouse89]

Who knew universities and archival records are bullshit you have nothing lol Now you are trying to completely make this about me again like when you said my having African ancestry makes my opinions invalid lol

your fucking insane. Churches kept records of people. They kept records of peoples lineages. Well Catholic churches did. progressive anglo-protestants like you did not keep any records. They are stupid peoples to me. They don't know their own. Lost souls they are.

[KidMulat]

then you are ull of shit. Irish people can detect what is irish purely on surname alone. You are descended from Afro-Saxons to me. Your not irish. If a Gael surname does not pop up you are not irish to me. Irish surnames are clan based and if you cannot provide any information then you are a fraud to me.

You really have no clue what I am, you are just mad. Grow up dude, back your words up with sources from reliable books and websites.

[LightHouse89]

No your not; I have the same people give me 20+ thumbs down everyday, they'll even look up my post history and thumbs down things from almost 2 years ago :-/ The Italians I am not too read on in Colonial America, when they start arriving in mass to NOLA though I can begin to speak more on them with some confidence.

I vocally and written wise give you a thumbs down for being stupid and having not a cue at irish culture. what is your 'irish' surname. you refuse to produce it so you cannot claim you are irish. At most you are part Anglo-Saxon if you have any European heritage. Maybe French? But Irish dream on..............

[Celxon]

bavarians are strong alpines. Prussians look more Nordic. Hessians look like Keltic-Nordids and some more close to the border of Switzerland looked more Alpine like Bavarians.

My point is that you can't really identify mixed people who are of German descent. You can't say that there were next to no German settlers in the Appalachians. They were some of the first people in the region, along with the English and others. Most of them anglicized their last names.

[KidMulat]

your fucking insane. Churches kept records of people. They kept records of peoples lineages. Well Catholic churches did. progressive anglo-protestants like you did not keep any records. They are stupid peoples to me. They don't know their own. Lost souls they are.

You once again are talking out your ass, its okay just let it out.

[KidMulat]

I vocally and written wise give you a thumbs down for being stupid and having not a cue at irish culture. what is your 'irish' surname. you refuse to produce it so you cannot claim you are irish. At most you are part Anglo-Saxon if you have any European heritage. Maybe French? But Irish dream on..............

Just so ignorant.

[LightHouse89]

You really have no clue what I am, you are just mad. Grow up dude, back your words up with sources from reliable books and websites.

I am not mad. I am confused as to why you are on an irish thread spreading Afram propaganda yet you have no irish gaelic heritage and to me you have no right basing a judgement on my ancestors here about their experiences. Stop with your afram ignorance on this irish thread and provide something ground breaking to me before I accept your bullshit. Your full of it and have been exposed.....just admit and submit it like a good woman.

[LightHouse89]

Just so ignorant.

LOL ignorant? You are ignorant. But keep on prodding with your ignorant pride of Afram 'who suffered the most in America' crap.

[Smeagol]

Actually that is incorrect; most "Africans" were mixed race or culturally Lusophone identitifed they did not see themselves as Africans http://www1.umassd.edu/specialprograms/caboVerde/jewslobban.html

Most Africans who enslaved their fellow Africans were mixed race, or culturally Lusophone identified? I very much doubt that. I know most pre-colonial Africans didn't really view themselves as ''Africans'', but you can't really deny that black Africans did enslave other black Africans long before White men arrived.


Even then the slaves of most African kingdoms were more like serfs;

This wasn't true everywhere.


Madam Tinubu and Queen Nzinga are two rulers of dozens who after recognizing the chattel slavery of Europeans did their best to end the flow of captives from their lands.

Some of the African rulers did that but again, it didn't happen all across the continent.

[LightHouse89]

My point is that you can't really identify mixed people who are of German descent. You can't say that there were next to no German settlers in the Appalachians. They were some of the first people in the region, along with the English and others. Most of them anglicized their last names.

Then they are mongrels. Germans settled mostly out west however did settle in New England, mostly Connecticut and Northern New York where their surnames can be found today. I do know some Scandinavians settled in Appalachia. But Germans? I find fault with this because I have never seen a picture of Appalachians with German looks to them.

[LightHouse89]

Most Africans who enslaved their fellow Africans were mixed race, or culturally Lusophone identified? I very much doubt that. I know most pre-colonial Africans didn't really view themselves as ''Africans'', but you can't really deny that black Africans did enslave other black Africans long before White men arrived.



This wasn't true everywhere.



Some of the African rulers did that but again, it didn't happen all across the continent.

Then some Aframs are descended from inferior clans from Africa. I doubt a Zulu exists amongst them.

[Weedman]

I don't say none fought for the south. They were willing to fight for whichever side they lived. But there were not many Irish slave owners. Like I said there was just not much opportunity for that. I am sure you could drudge some up. There were some scots-irish slave owners but still probably a lot fewer than among the english and scottish.

yeah but at least half of all confederate soldiers in general were not slave owners either, The slave-owning class was largely exempt from the military draft in the South.

as for white slave owners, your ancestry had no bearing on it. EVERYone in the South has both Scotch-Irish and English ancestry no matter if they live in the deep south or Appalachia and most people from Appalachia are made up of thoroughly mixed Scotch-Irish, and English ancestry as well as German and some other things here and there.

And , yes, slavery was alot less common in the Appalachian region than anywhere else because the land was not suited for it, but to say the English had more slaves than the Scotch-Irish?
It has nothing to do with any of that.

many White families native to the deep south have a fairly large degree of Scotch-Irish ancestry as well.

It's false to think that most of the Appalachian settlers were Scotch-Irish and most settlers in the Deep South were overwhelmingly English.

When people first settled the Appalachian MNTS, they then poured west and settled the rest of the south so, most people, whether in the Deep South or Appalachia have pretty much the same background, with some people in the Deep South having more French or Irish Catholic ancestry depending on where they came from.

Just about everyone from the deep south also has Scotch-Irish ancestry and without a doubt EVERYONE from Appalachia definitely has much English ancestry as well.

The culture of the English-influenced, upper class Southerners, predominated in the deep south and that is why it's different from Appalachia but the ancestral make-up of the population is just like people from Appalachia, with maybe some more stuff added in people of certain locations.

Most people in the deep south have just as much Scotch-Irish ancestry as most people in Appalachia. It has more to do with culture and the actual land itself.
The flat, watershed, low-lying plains of the deep south were well suited for a Plantation-cultivation culture and slavery while the land in the Appalachian MNTS was hardly suited at all for it.

and you're right. Most Irish Southerners were not slave owners, most Irish Catholics were fairly new immigrants and did not have the economic status to become slave owners at the time the war broke out, and if you are talking about Appalachian people in general when you talk of the Scotch-Irish then yes, the Appalachian regions had the least amount of slavery at all.

[Smeagol]

Look at some german amish from ohio and you will know what most the "german" immigrants to US looked like.

I've been to the Amish areas, they mainly look like Southern Germans. That is to say they have Nordid, Alpinid, and Dinarid influences.

[LightHouse89]

You really have no clue what I am, you are just mad. Grow up dude, back your words up with sources from reliable books and websites.

irish as in irish catholic then you claim Gaelic heritage. If so and if true you would have a Gaelic surname. Otherwise you are descended from Protestant Irish which are artificial Irish people. Not true Irish blood.

[LightHouse89]

I've been to the Amish areas, they mainly look like Southern Germans. That is to say they have Nordid, Alpinid, and Dinarid influences.

many of them are Wurttemburgers.

[LightHouse89]

yeah but at least half of all confederate soldiers in general were not slave owners either, The slave-owning class was largely exempt from the military draft in the South.

as for white slave owners, your ancestry had no bearing on it. EVERYone in the South has both Scotch-Irish and English ancestry no matter if they live in the deep south or Appalachia and most people from Appalachia are made up of thoroughly mixed Scotch-Irish, and English ancestry as well as German and some other things here and there.

As far as slavery as a whole, yes it was alot more uncommon in the Appalachian region than anywhere else because the land was not suited for it, but to say the English had more slaves than the Scotch-Irish?
It has nothing to do with any of that, many White families native to the deep south has a fair degree of Scotch-Irish ancestry as well.

It's false to think that most of the Appalachian settlers were Scotch-Irish and most settlers in the Deep South were overwhelmingly English.

When people first settled the Appalachian MNTS, they then poured west and settled the rest of the south so, most people, whether in the Deep South or Appalachia have pretty much the same background, with some people in the Deep South having more French or Irish Catholic ancestry depending on where they came from.

Just about everyone from the deep south also has Scotch-Irish ancestry and without a doubt EVERYONE from Appalachia definitely has much English ancestry as well.

The culture of the English influenced, upper class Southerners predominated in the deep south and that is why it's different from Appalachia but the ancestral make-up of the population is just like people from Appalachia, with maybe some more stuff added in people of certain locations.

Most people in the deep south have just as much Scotch-Irish ancestry as most people in Appalachia. It has more to do with culture and the actual land itself.
The flat, watershed, low-lying plains of the deep south were well suited for a Plantation-cultivation culture and slavery while the land in the Appalachian MNTS was hardly suited at all for it.

and you're right. Most Irish Southerners were not slave owners, most Irish Catholics were fairly new immigrants and did not have the economic status to become slave owners at the time the war broke out, and if you are talking about Appalachian people in general when you talk of the Scotch-Irish then yes, the Appalachian regions had the least amount of slavery at all.

The welsh and anglo-saxon southerners had the most ownership of slaves. they were the wealthiest community amongst southerners.

[Celxon]

The Italians I am not too read on in Colonial America

They were very small in number, but they were here. For example, the Taliaferros (Tollivers) were a prominent pre-Revolution Italian family in Virginia.

[Celxon]

:
Then they are mongrels. Germans settled mostly out west however did settle in New England, mostly Connecticut and Northern New York where their surnames can be found today. I do know some Scandinavians settled in Appalachia. But Germans? I find fault with this because I have never seen a picture of Appalachians with German looks to them.

All four of my grandparents have ancestral links to various parts of Germany. Germans were instrumental in settling the frontier. You're right in that some settlers were of Swedish and/or Finnish descent (New Sweden), though. Don't troll me, bro'.;)

[KidMulat]

Most Africans who enslaved their fellow Africans were mixed race, or culturally Lusophone identified? I very much doubt that. I know most pre-colonial Africans didn't really view themselves as ''Africans'', but you can't really deny that black Africans did enslave other black Africans long before White men arrived.



This wasn't true everywhere.



Some of the African rulers did that but again, it didn't happen all across the continent.

No I said the people involved in the creation of Trans Atlantic Slavery were Mixed Race/Culturally Lusophone.

The known Slavers that I am aware of before Europeans were Afro-Asiatic speakers who called themselves "White" (the Fulani being one of them here is a good video on it (http://youtu.be/ycZC7cq2AB8))

I can look for a complete list, its a lot more common than one would assume.

[Celxon]

Then they are mongrels.

That's funny (strange). That's what Ferguson called them. They then beat him and his troops at the Battle of Kings Mountain. I prefer the PC term, "mutt".

[Celxon]

irish as in irish catholic then you claim Gaelic heritage. If so and if true you would have a Gaelic surname. Otherwise you are descended from Protestant Irish which are artificial Irish people. Not true Irish blood.

What if you're a Protestant Gael? Blew your mind, didn't I?

[Weedman]

Then they are mongrels. Germans settled mostly out west however did settle in New England, mostly Connecticut and Northern New York where their surnames can be found today. I do know some Scandinavians settled in Appalachia. But Germans? I find fault with this because I have never seen a picture of Appalachians with German looks to them.
without a doubt, there were far more Germans who settled Appalachia than Scandinavians-:p......you must be thinking about those few finns and swedes that settled in Pennsylvania? They have nothing to do with Southern Appalachia.

Germans in (Southern) Appalachia were in the minority. A typical native of (Southern) Appalachia has mixed English/Scotch-Irish ancestry and then a smaller degree of German added in. That is why most people there dont look German. but at the same time, a typical native of that region does, in fact, have a certain amount of German ancestry.

It's almost unheard of for someone from Appalachia to not have any German ancestry at all, and it's also almost unheard of for anyone from Appalachia to have more German ancestry than they do English or Scotch-Irish ancestry.

[Celxon]

EVERYone in the South has both Scotch-Irish and English ancestry no matter if they live in the deep south or Appalachia

You could say the same thing about much of the antebellum North. Look at Pennsylvania. It was Grand Central Station for Ulster Scottish settlers. I think that both Grant and Sherman were of Ulster Scottish descent. Jackson was largely English, even though he had roots in Ulster. He also had Irish and Welsh blood. I'm assuming that the O'Connors weren't Scots-Irish, though.;) "Neal", a name in his line, could be of more than one derivation.

[LightHouse89]

:

All four of my grandparents have ancestral links to various parts of Germany. Germans were instrumental in settling the frontier. You're right in that some settlers were of Swedish and/or Finnish descent (New Sweden), though. Don't troll me, bro'.;)

actually many 'Swedish' americans are Swedish Finns. I have a supposed ancestor of such heritage but don't claim it on my heritage list because it gave me little genetic impact. However in Gardener MA Swedish finns flourished under the furniture business. They alos enjoy chopping down trees and did pretty well in MA.

[LightHouse89]

without a doubt, there were far more Germans who settled Appalachia than Scandinavians-:p......you must be thinking about those few finns and swedes that settled in Pennsylvania? They have nothing to do with Southern Appalachia.

Germans in (Southern) Appalachia were in the minority. A typical native of (Southern) Appalachia has mixed English/Scotch-Irish ancestry and then a smaller degree of German added in. That is why most people there dont look German. but at the same time, a typical native of that region does, in fact, have a certain amount of German ancestry.

It's almost unheard of for someone from Appalachia to not have any German ancestry at all, and it's also almost unheard of for anyone from Appalachia to have more German ancestry than they do English or Scotch-Irish ancestry.

I have met more people in my neck of the words with German surnames than Scandinavian surnames. Infact Scandinavian surnames are so similar to English surnames here that in history it is easier for a Swede to adapt to New England than a southerner. One of the most common places for Scandinavians to immigrate to was Massachusetts in my neck of the woods. My ancestry does not surprise me based on historical information and my family tree book my sister created.

[LightHouse89]

You could say the same thing about much of the antebellum North. Look at Pennsylvania. It was Grand Central Station for Ulster Scottish settlers. I think that both Grant and Sherman were of Ulster Scottish descent. Jackson was largely English, even though he had roots in Ulster. He also had Irish and Welsh blood. I'm assuming that the O'Connors weren't Scots-Irish, though.;) "Neal", a name in his line, could be of more than one derivation.

Penn state rurally is more German.

[LightHouse89]

What if you're a Protestant Gael? Blew your mind, didn't I?

that is extremely rare as it was considered race traitor to convert.

[LightHouse89]

That's funny (strange). That's what Ferguson called them. They then beat him and his troops at the Battle of Kings Mountain. I prefer the PC term, "mutt".

then yes your mutts. I am not but a proud Alpine.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

What if you're a Protestant Gael? Blew your mind, didn't I?

The ulster scots were gaels but they came from scotland. It's possible they came to sctoland from ireland in the first place, though.

It is hard to sort it all out but generally speaking, I don't think Ireland is all that Irish any more. Everyone remotely involved with the uprising was hung, at least 100K sold to slavery, most the rest deported to connacht and only slowly spread to the rest of the island again. Plus any who were indigent after that (and there were many) were later deported. They were sold for 5 pounds sterling so their owners could give two shits how many of them died off - this was much cheaper than african slaves.

[Celxon]

without a doubt, there were far more Germans who settled Appalachia than Scandinavians......you must be thinking about those few finns and swedes that settled in Pennsylvania? They have nothing to do with Southern Appalachia.

Germans in (Southern) Appalachia were in the minority. A typical native of (Southern) Appalachia has mixed English/Scotch-Irish ancestry and then a smaller degree of German added in. That is why most people there dont look German. but at the same time, a typical native of that region does, in fact, have a certain amount of German ancestry.

It's almost unheard of for someone from Appalachia to not have any German ancestry at all, and it's also almost unheard of for anyone from Appalachia to have more German ancestry than they do English or Scotch-Irish ancestry.

That's a great explanation. It also depends on the person and the region. My roots are, admittedly, atypical in that I have more "Celtic", etc. blood than the claimed norm. I, in no way, claim to be representative of most individuals. That said, I wonder if there may be more Irish and Highland Scottish roots in some parts of Appalachia than in others. I wish that I had saved two great web sites about the subject, even though one of the authors had a chip on his shoulder.;) He brought up some folks in my family tree to illustrate his main point, which was quite surprising. I referred to this same clan in this thread.

[Celxon]

The ulster scots were gaels but they came from scotland. It's possible they came to sctoland from ireland in the first place, though.


Some of them were. It's true that western Scotland was more Gaelic than eastern Scotland, and, like you said, much of the Gaelic input came from the establishment of Dalriada (perhaps pre-invasion contacts too).

[Celxon]

irish as in irish catholic then you claim Gaelic heritage. If so and if true you would have a Gaelic surname. Otherwise you are descended from Protestant Irish which are artificial Irish people. Not true Irish blood.

Here's another one for you. Jack Dempsey was a Mormon. His family had deep roots in West Virginia. Would you tell him that he was artificial and plastic? Oh, wait a minute. How could a "real" Irish guy be Appalachian *and* Mormon? He must have been from the lowland Scottish Dempsey line, who were just Angles, since their grandkids ended up in the American frontier. His O'Dempsey ancestry automatically changed to Scots-Irish when his great-great-grandfather converted to Protestantism.;)

[♥ Lily ♥]

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish-slave-trade-the-forgotten-white-slaves/31076

[Ó Ciardubhain]

I think being slaves is a weak and shameful state and nothing to be dwelled upon or to be proud about. The left which glorifies weakness and shames the strong has gotten you thinking in this victimhood currency but it's not going to work.
They don't care if Irish people where slaves, they are still going to promote white guilt and attempt to wipe our people of the earth, Irish included. It's merely a means to an end, they're not guided by principles or a genuine empathy.