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Baluarte
11-29-2013, 04:37 AM
Europe Under Washington’s Order

By Sergey Maximov

http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2013/11/28/europe-under-washington-order.html

http://www.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Europe-USA.jpg

The United States has sparked a real big fire in the Middle East. Now it has shifted its attention to Europe where the allies started to feel too free at the time of Russia-US «reset». Large-scale NATO exercises conducted in the vicinity of the borders with Russia and Belarus, directing money flows and arms supplies to Poland, the talks about the inevitability of Ukraine’s entry into the North Atlantic Treaty Organization – it all goes to show the White House is going to ultimately abandon the policy of «partnership with Russia» which it had to declare when its military forces «were fighting international terrorism»…

Now the war is over. The US is getting friendly with the Taliban, Al Qaeda and the Muslim Brothers which have become its partners at the negotiation table. All of a sudden the Islamists have become US friends in Syria while the anti-terrorist coalition partner once again got the status of «potential enemy of NATO».

There is nothing to be surprised about.

The US is always a loser in the geopolitical competition in Eurasia when Europeans realize the «threat from the East» is illusory and lose interest in preserving American presence in the space stretching from the Atlantic to the Carpathians Mountains. The normal relationship between Europe and Russia is like a stake in the heart of a vampire for the United States.

The classic Anglo-Saxon strategy since the end of the Second World War is aimed at excluding the situation when the good old Europe would start to have doubts about the expediency of everlasting «Atlantic solidarity». The demonization of the Kremlin and provoking conflicts with Moscow is the true and tried method of getting Europeans tied to the American nuclear «umbrella» that serves no purpose as soon as the rain stops.

America needs Russia to be hostile like a badly suffering drug addict needs a new dose. That’s why having played a game of «partnership», Washington inevitably starts to ignite tensions in the Russian-United States relations to insert the poison of mistrust towards Moscow into the veins of European politics. Actually it has already launched the process. Of course, Poland is the leader among the coalition of the willing to join the Washington’s efforts.

One should give the devil his due; the current Polish leadership does a lot to find a way to mutual understanding between Moscow and Warsaw. But it has to take into account that the tendency to link the tragic events of the country’s history with the contemporary reality is a predominant tendency among the Polish conservative circles and the society in general. Many Poles perceive the fact of having common borders with Germany in the West, Russia in the North, as well as borders with Belarus and the Baltic states, as the major threat to the security of the third Rzeczpospolita. Washington takes advantage of the situation. It uses Poland as a tool to intimidate Europeans making them believe that Russia has «imperial ambitions». At that, there is a collateral effect here – involving Poland into the major Anglo-Saxon games facilitates the shaping of Germany’s image as an imperial state.

The recent NATO Steadfast Jazz 2013 held on the territories of Poland, Lithuania and Latvia was presented by Polish media as a «Polish-French response» to Russia though indirectly it was a response to Germany too because there were 1200 French and 1040 Polish servicemen out of six thousand troops participating in the maneuvers, while the German contribution was limited only by 55 men strong medical staff group. Washington was an initiator, but limited its participation by only 160 troops. Perhaps it was pursuing quite a different goal. The Americans want to make Europeans think that they are left alone to deal with Russia and Germany while the United States decided to keep away from it all. This tactics work when dealing with Europeans.

The instigation of anti-Russian and, in more covert form, anti-German, hysteria may have a method in its madness. There are warnings coming from Moscow that it will react accordingly to the deployment of missile defense components on the territory of Poland. Russian politicians and military express perplexity over the policy aimed at boosting the Polish army’s strike capabilities. This reaction is viewed as a threat to the entire Central and Eastern Europe coming from Russia. Germany displays no wish to carry the heavy burden of European defense on its shoulders among other things. It is presented as the Berlin’s indifferent attitude towards the Moscow’s imperial policy or something similar to a tangible sign of new collusion between Germany and Russian against Europe.

Scaring themselves with the stories about «eastern barbarians» and «insidious Germans» Poland and the Baltic states exert pressure on the Federal Republic of Germany to make it demonstrate the Atlantic solidarity when it comes to Russia so that the two countries would be at loggerheads. At the same time they ask the United States for help, complaining it has abandoned the Eastern Europeans recently acceded to the Western structures, leaving them alone with the «aggressive» Germans and Russians. The Washington returns to the scene of European politics as the one to unite Europe against the threat making the exercises be joined not by NATO members only, but by such non-aligned countries as Sweden and Finland as well. Actually nobody had doubts which direction these two countries are moving in. But it’s hard to understand what made Ukraine send a contingent twice as large as the one of Germany to take part in Steadfast Jazz 2013.

The Brussels-based NATO headquarters officials assured the exercises were not aimed at the Russian Federation and its allies. But the scenario speaks for itself. Poland and the Baltic states were threatened by an unnamed state aspiring to establish its domination in Central and Eastern Europe. Upon their request NATO brought rapid reaction forces to Poland, Lithuania and Latvia to deter the aggressor during the deployment of major forces. The NATO ground and air units were to be stationed at the borders with Russia and Belarus, while the naval forces were to cut off the eastern part of the Baltic Sea. It’s hard to believe that it was Estonia, a NATO member, which was viewed as a potential enemy.

It shows that the United States-led North Atlantic alliance has thrown away the fig leaf of «partnership with Russia» and made it be known in no uncertain terms which direction its strategy will evolve after the infamous operation in Afghanistan is over.

How come the Ukraine, the state keeping away from participation in any alliances, agreed to take part in this kind of NATO exercise?

Of course, to some extent, it could be understood. The close cooperation between Ukraine and the North Atlantic Alliance presupposes getting funds. It is a significant factor in view of financial woes faced by Ukrainian military. Some experts say the current Ukrainian leadership is tacitly implementing the policy aimed at joining NATO – the very same political course started by the previous administration of President Yushchenko. Are they right?

It’s not that easy to come up with a definite answer. There are signs that Kiev believes that its staying out of blocks is just a pause, a time to take breath. That’s what Viktor Shlinchak, Chair of the Supervisory Board, Institute of World Policy in Kiev, Ukraine, said some time ago speaking at an international forum held in the Ukrainian capital. The wrap-up article the Institute published after the event is called Ukraine-NATO: Calm Before Entry.

Natalia Nemyliwska, a Canadian citizen of Ukrainian origin, Director of NATO Information and Documentation Center in Ukraine, spoke by and large along the same lines. Another participant of the forum former Minister of National Defence MP Rasa Juknevičienė, called on Ukrainians to get back to the idea of NATO entry once again, because, as she believes, it provides political guarantee of statehood the very same way the membership in the European Union does. According to her, «Ukraine and its armed forces are ready to join NATO in case there is a political will». Poland’s former Minister of Defence Janusz Onysziewicz put it in no uncertain terms as well. He flatly refused to consider any options for guaranteeing European security with the participation of Russia and Belarus emphasizing that Ukraine should pursue the goal to enter NATO because that is the only alliance to provide military support of other states in emergency.

Alexander Zatynayko, Director of Department for Military Policy and Strategic Planning, said the cooperation with NATO in the field of security and defense is an imperative allowing Ukraine to join the European Union. This way he once again confirmed the tacitly concealed fact that Ukraine cannot enter the European Union without becoming a NATO member. Ukraine’s former Foreign Minister Vladimir Ogryzko made no bones about it saying the non-aligned status of Ukraine should only be a time break before the full-fledged NATO membership. As to him, the neutrality means conducting a foreign policy without sense that leads to the loss of state’s political independence.

The forum «Ukraine – NATO» also included into the agenda the Kiev’s role in the Common Defense and Security Policy (CDSP), which actually serves as an instrument of getting Ukraine embroiled into the «Big Game». A statement of Poland’s Minister of Defence appeared right after the termination ofSteadfast Jazz 2013 exercise on the Ukraine’s Defence Ministry’s website saying the training event is a harbinger of growing fruitful cooperation between Ukraine and Poland, the countries which are working to create a Lithuanian-Polish-Ukrainian brigade and Ukraine’s accession to the Vyshegrad combat group.

The idea of establishing a military formation of Vyshegrad Four with Ukraine’s participation is not new. It appeared in 2007 when then President Victor Yushchenko tried to ram Ukraine through into NATO. Then the concept was forgotten. Now Washington has revived the favorite Anglo-Saxon tactics of driving a wedge between Europe and Russia, so the idea is given a second lease on life.

It has started to acquire a concrete pattern after the March 2013 Vyshegrad Group defence summit in Warsaw. Then the defence ministers of Poland, Slovakia, Hungary and the Czech Republic signed an agreement to create a three thousand strong joint rapid reaction force. Poland will exercise the command functions; the unit’s headquarters will be also located on Polish soil. The Polish servicemen will account for half of the force’s strength. According to plans, the force will become operational by early 2016.

The formation of V4 combat group is implemented within the framework of the European Union and NATO because the Vyshegrad group countries are full-fledged members of the both organizations.

What are the European Union’s Common Defense and Security Policy? Actually it’s the European element of NATO without the United States of America. Formally it says Europeans want to have its own defense capability in case the United States sticks to the policy of isolation and refuses to commit its armed forces to the European Union’s defense. Obviously, the argument is laughable; almost all European Union states are also NATO members. What about invoking article 5 of the Washington Treaty? The article is binding and presupposes the United States must defend its European allies. Leaving aside all this play of words, the European Union’s Common Defense and Security Policy is the very same pattern of creating pacts which exclude Russia and Belarus from the process of creating security space in Europe. At that, the both countries are viewed as potential enemies. The question is: will Ukraine, a state which is not a member of any block, take part in this project? Yes or no?

Somehow it all fits really well into the efforts applied by the United States to get the North Atlantic Alliance back to the mission it was created for: to maintain US presence in Europe, to keep Russia away and let Germany be tied by the concept of «United Europe». Last year NATO limited its training activities by exercises to prepare personnel for peacekeeping missions, as well as natural or industrial disasters. This year the Alliance promised to hold large-scale annual exercises in Europe like if the security situation has become different now. Though nothing seems to be changed. If only an idea to provoke the changes on purpose has not appeared in the heads of NATO decision makers.

There is something to think about in Moscow, Minsk and other capitals of the Organization for Collective Security. Perhaps in Kiev too.

Baluarte
11-29-2013, 04:13 PM
I agree completely with it. Also, it explains easily thinks the Transatlantic free trade agreement, representing the final capitulation of European continental economy to the American firms.

They even boast about it openly.

US State Department declaration from earlier this year:


Today’s united Europe—a remarkable success—is a powerful tribute to the far-reaching ambitions and determination of European visionaries such as Jean Monnet, Robert Schuman, Konrad Adenauer, and Ludwig Erhard and Americans who supported this effort such as George Marshall, Dean Acheson, and Harry Truman.
http://www.state.gov/e/rls/rmk/207997.htm

Interesting when you remember Schuman and Monnet, fathers of the European construction both reported and answered to the State Department anyway...

cyrus
03-18-2014, 10:27 AM
Europe Under Washington’s Order

Agree all the way. I realy cannot trust krauts asscension and their economic ambitions and interests. US of A should always be on control over Russia-Germany relations.

Ars Moriendi
10-01-2014, 04:52 AM
New essay, dedicated to the Trans-Atlantic Free Trade Agreement:

-----------------------------------------------


The Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) Trojan Horse. Selling out Europe to US Corporate Plunder

By Colin Todhunter

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-transatlantic-trade-and-investment-partnership-ttiptrojan-horse-selling-out-europe-to-us-corporate-plunder/5405170

http://www.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/bankster-chess.jpg

Do people in Europe want the likes of Monsanto determining policies in secretive meetings in Brussels? Would they like Unilever, Kraft or Nestle determining what is allowed in their food? Do they want big business removing or weakening health and safety standards and undermining consumer and workers’ rights?

In other words, do they want their parliaments to be sidelined by powerful corporations that determine policies behind closed doors with bureaucrats and officials in Brussels?

Decades of hard work to ensure policies are open to democratic accountability and to guarantee ordinary people’s rights are in danger of being swept away at the behest of wealthy private concerns.

The great corporate heist continues today in Washington. Shrouded in secrecy and granting privileged access to powerful corporations, the 7th round of negotiations on a Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) will take place amid growing civil society protests at the dangers of the proposed deal for democracy and essential regulations in the areas of public health, safety, the environment and the financial sector.

Dozens of civil society groups from all across Europe have denounced EU plans for ‘regulatory cooperation’ as well as the continued secrecy surrounding the talks. While EU negotiators have repeatedly claimed that protection levels are not under threat and that standards will not be lowered as a result of the TTIP talks, these statements have been consistently disproved by documents leaked from the negotiations.

In particular, the implications of the proposals for regulatory cooperation at the horizontal level or on specific sectors, such as the EU proposals on chemicals and financial regulation, all suggest that current protection levels (and the possibility for legislators to improve these in the future) will be undermined through the TTIP.

The leaked EU proposal for horizontal cooperation in the field of regulation bears strong resemblance to proposals tabled by a handful of powerful corporate lobby groups.

Kenneth Haar from Corporate Europe Observatory has said:


“The Trade Commissioner has said on various occasions that protection levels, be they on food or chemicals or other areas, will not be lowered as a result of the negotiations. The problem is that everything he does points in a different direction.”

Big business continues to dominate the discussions, while the majority of the public is being left in the dark about the exact direction of the talks. Instead, they must rely on leaked documents to get information about what is being negotiated on their behalf.

Natacha Cingotti from Friends of the Earth Europe says:


“The leaked EU plans for regulatory cooperation fuel concerns about the negative impact of TTIP on essential protections for citizens and the environment. All the signals lead us to believe the talks are a Trojan horse which risks undoing decades of progress to protect citizens and our environment and benefits only big business.”

The negotiators should allow full transparency around the negotiations.

Max Bank from Lobby Control calls for wide public debate about an issue that will affect all Europeans because regulatory cooperation in TTIP is a covert attack on democracy and regulation.

Corporate interests are driving the TTIP agenda, with the public having been sidelined. Pro-free-trade bureaucrats from both sides of the Atlantic are facilitating the strategy [1]. Despite claims by the European Commission (EC) that the talks are transparent [2], the notes of EC meetings with business lobbyists released to CEO under the EU’s freedom of information law were found to be heavily censored. The documents showed that the EC invited industry to submit wish lists for ‘regulatory barriers’ they would like removed during the negotiations. There is no way for the public to know how the EU has incorporated this into its negotiating position as all references had been removed [3].

Under the banner of ‘regulatory cooperation’, the US wants all so-called barriers to trade, including controversial regulations such as those protecting agriculture, food or data privacy, to be removed. Even the leaders of the Senate Finance Committee, in a letter to US Trade Representative Ron Kirk, have made it clear that any agreement must reduce EU restrictions on genetically modified crops, chlorinated chickens and hormone-treated beef.

The TTIP could also empower corporations to legally challenge a wide range of regulations which they dislike [4]. Even the threat of litigation whereby corporations sue governments for massive amounts of cash could result in the shelving of legislation.

A leaked EU document [5] from the winter of 2013 shows what is at stake with the EC proposing an EU-US Regulatory Cooperation Council, a permanent structure to be created as part of the TTIP deal. Existing and future EU regulation will then have to go through a series of investigations, dialogues and negotiations in this Council. This would move decisions on regulations into a technocratic sphere, away from democratic scrutiny. There would also be compulsory impact assessments for proposed regulation, which will be checked for their potential impact on trade. This would be ideal for big business lobbies: creating a firm brake on any new progressive regulation in the very first stage of decision-making, driving decision making underground and granting both US and European businesses even greater sway over decisions than currently exists.

Ideas that favour powerful business interests could be presented as a done deal without room for change based on the premise that business lobby groups, the EU and US authorities and a restricted group of officials have already agreed on them [6].

The official language talks of “mutual recognition” of standards or so-called reduction of non-tariff barriers. For the EU, that could mean accepting US standards in many areas, which are lower than those of the EU and for instance the eradication of Europe’s ‘precautionary principle’ [7] regarding genetically modified food and the eventual flooding of GMOs onto the commercial market.

The talks amount to little more than a series of backroom deals, while striving to give the appearance of somehow being democratic. If it goes through, this treaty would effectively constitute a vital part of cementing the ongoing restructuring of economies in favour of financial-corporate interests [8,9]. The trade deal is a unique opportunity to achieve through closed and non-transparent negotiations what hasn’t been possible so far in a transparent and democratic way.

No sector has lobbied the EC more during the preparation phase for the negotiations on the proposed deal than the agribusiness sector [10]. Food multinationals, agri-traders and seed producers have had more contacts with the Commission’s trade department (DG Trade) than lobbyists from the pharmaceutical, chemical, financial and car industries put together.

Of the 560 lobby encounters that DG Trade held to prepare the negotiations, 520 (92 percent) were with business lobbyists, while only 26 (four percent) were with public interest groups. For every encounter with a trade union or consumer group, there were 20 with companies and industry federations.

Pia Eberhardt, trade campaigner with Corporate Europe Observatory recently stated that:


“DG Trade actively involved business lobbyists in drawing up the EU position for TTIP while keeping ‘pesky’ trade unionists and other public interest groups at bay. The result is a big-business-first agenda for the negotiations which endangers many achievements that people in Europe have long struggled for, from food safety rules to environmental protection.”

The TTIP must be stopped.
-----------------------
Be informed and take action:
http://corporateeurope.org/
http://www.foeeurope.org/
http://www.s2bnetwork.org/
https://www.lobbycontrol.de/schwerpunkt/ttip/
-----------------------
Notes
1] http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-eu-free-trade-agreement-a-corporate-stitch-up-by-any-other-name/5339789
2] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/18/wrong-george-monbiot-nothing-secret-eu-trade-deal
3] http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-eu-transatlantic-free-trade-agreement-more-secrecy-and-more-duplicity-revealed/5369272
4] http://corporateeurope.org/international-trade/2014/07/ttip-debunking-business-propaganda-over-investor-rights
5] http://corporateeurope.org/trade/2013/12/regulation-none-our-business
6] http://corporateeurope.org/sites/default/files/ttip_covert_attacks.pdf
7] http://www.countercurrents.org/todhunter080914.htm
8] http://www.globalresearch.ca/free-trade-agreements-the-bypassing-of-democracy-to-institute-economic-plunder/5354197
9] http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-us-eu-transatlantic-free-trade-agreement-tafta-big-business-corporate-power-grab/5352885
10] http://corporateeurope.org/international-trade/2014/07/who-lobbies-most-ttip

Ars Moriendi
10-01-2014, 05:09 AM
Europe Under Washington’s Order

Agree all the way. I realy cannot trust krauts asscension and their economic ambitions and interests. US of A should always be on control over Russia-Germany relations.

Profound analysis. :rolleyes:

Like Germany could anyhow have ascendancy right now. A throughly occupied State.

Sandman
10-01-2014, 05:48 AM
Bullshit. Russia will always be a gangster of Europe. Will always have imperial tendencies. The only effective policy is to isolate Russia and pushing her from the borders of Europe. Russia's policy in 1939 led to the outbreak of world war 2 world. Today, Russia's policy in favor of only fanatical European leftists who hate America and naturally butlers Putin.

Nor56
10-01-2014, 07:51 AM
Bullshit. Russia will always be a gangster of Europe. Will always have imperial tendencies. The only effective policy is to isolate Russia and pushing her from the borders of Europe. Russia's policy in 1939 led to the outbreak of world war 2 world. Today, Russia's policy in favor of only fanatical European leftists who hate America and naturally butlers Putin.

I do not agree with you. Russia have rights. Eastern Europe remains Russia, as it was. :)


Russia's policy in 1939 led to the outbreak of world war 2 world.
The Soviet Union did not attack first. :eusa_naughty: Nude fact.

Äijä
10-01-2014, 08:00 AM
Bullshit. Russia will always be a gangster of Europe. Will always have imperial tendencies. The only effective policy is to isolate Russia and pushing her from the borders of Europe. Russia's policy in 1939 led to the outbreak of world war 2 world. Today, Russia's policy in favor of only fanatical European leftists who hate America and naturally butlers Putin.

Yep, people that are not under the constant threats dont understand our position.

Äijä
10-01-2014, 08:01 AM
I do not agree with you. Russia have rights. Eastern Europe remains Russia, as it was. :)


The Soviet Union did not attack first. :eusa_naughty: Nude fact.


You dont have rights in "Eastern Europe", right to die there maybe.

You attacked in Poland and Finland, a fact.

Nor56
10-01-2014, 08:11 AM
You attacked in Poland and Finland, a fact.

My government at that time. Yes, attacked Finland.
BUT. Germany first invaded Poland. The Soviet Union was is concerned about the situation.

Nor56
10-01-2014, 08:42 AM
You dont have rights in "Eastern Europe", right to die there maybe.


We have rights, this is our land.
You are our neighbor.

Äijä
10-01-2014, 01:35 PM
We have rights, this is our land.
You are our neighbor.

What is your land? Baltic states also?

Nor56
10-01-2014, 01:54 PM
No.) Balts are our neighbors. I do not see them as enemies, and do not think properly to force them to be a part of us. This land for the Balts.
For Russia it is the territory of Ukraine and Belarus, which are culturally and spiritually are one rus people.

Borna
10-01-2014, 01:59 PM
It is a shame how Europeans became USA bitch. What is even more disgusting is that they see Russia as enemy while at the same time everything negative and cancerous toward our societies is coming from USA.

Ars Moriendi
10-01-2014, 02:24 PM
It is a shame how Europeans became USA bitch. What is even more disgusting is that they see Russia as enemy while at the same time everything negative and cancerous toward our societies is coming from USA.

I suppose Scandinavia simply enjoys the status quo, same as the Baltic States.
Pathetic in the case of the main European countries though. Seeing France, Italy, Spain or even Greece yield to NATO while not a single of their real interests is considered; is just mind.-boggling.

Borna
10-01-2014, 02:28 PM
I suppose Scandinavia simply enjoys the status quo, same as the Baltic States.
Pathetic in the case of the main European countries though. Seeing France, Italy, Spain or even Greece yield to NATO while not a single of their real interests is considered; is just mind.-boggling.

Neither of countries you listed except France are so enslaved as Germany is today. Germany is even ready to give up its economic interest found in trade with Russia ( Cut the ww2 bullshit, Germany and Russia are probably biggest partners in Europe, in Moscow you can see every German car company) just to obey her masters in Washington.

Such vassal and slave mentality of Europeans, who despite of great potential they have still serve USA will cost us one day a lot.

Sandman
10-01-2014, 06:18 PM
I do not agree with you. Russia have rights. Eastern Europe remains Russia, as it was. :)


The Soviet Union did not attack first. :eusa_naughty: Nude fact.

Do you think that Russia has the right to rule over the entire eastern Europe?
Russia together with Germany is co-responsible for the outbreak of World War 2. Russian-German Agreement of 23 August 1939. Encouraged Hitler to attack the Polish. September 17, 1939, the Russians attacked the Polish eastern border, and together with the Germans made ​​another partition of the Polish lands. Next was the aggression of Russia in Finland in winter 1939/1940 year and annexation of the Baltic states in 1940.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact
Estimates indicate that the aggression of Russia in the Baltic countries and Finland meant that these countries have lost about 10% of its population.

Sandman
10-01-2014, 06:41 PM
No.) For Russia it is the territory of Ukraine and Belarus, which are culturally and spiritually are one rus people.

Dude, you and all of Russia mentally you are in the 19 century. Ukraine and Belarus are separate countries, and not part of Russia. Kievan Rus was destroyed by the Mongols in the 13th century and the Russian state is no longer the same state as Kievan Rus.
If you want to maintain good relationships between the countries of the former Kievan Rus', it Just do an agreement on the principles of good will. The attack on the Ukraine and detachment from the whole province is a flawed policy, because lead to hatred between Russians and Ukrainians.

Nor56
10-02-2014, 03:55 AM
Ukraine and Belarus are separate countries, and not part of Russia.
It's true, and but they are still our brothers and sisters.


Kievan Rus was destroyed by the Mongols in the 13th century and the Russian state is no longer the same state as Kievan Rus.

Destroyed and rebuilt.


If you want to maintain good relationships between the countries of the former Kievan Rus', it Just do an agreement on the principles of good will. The attack on the Ukraine and detachment from the whole province is a flawed policy, because lead to hatred between Russians and Ukrainians.

Part of Ukrainians do not support the power of the new oligarchs. Western Ukraine does not harbor warm feelings for Ukrainians maintaining relations with Russia.

Personally, I had a friend from Ivano-Frankivsk (West-UA). We never talked about politics and we did not were enemies. But he often liked to start a conversation about why the locals the Crimea do not speak in the Ukrainian language. He is a patriot of Ukraine, with the interests of Western culture, but not the full Russian.
There Ukraine, and have her western Ukraine, with other ambitions.

Nor56
10-02-2014, 04:19 AM
Do you think that Russia has the right to rule over the entire eastern Europe?
No.


Russia together with Germany is co-responsible for the outbreak of World War 2. Russian-German Agreement of 23 August 1939. Encouraged Hitler to attack the Polish. September 17, 1939, the Russians attacked the Polish eastern border, and together with the Germans made ​​another partition of the Polish lands. Next was the aggression of Russia in Finland in winter 1939/1940 year and annexation of the Baltic states in 1940.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact
The reason for this is not a signed contract - Eastern Pact. "on mutual assistance between the USSR, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Finland, Latvia and Lithuania in order to guarantee their borders against the aggression of Germany"

Sarmatian
10-02-2014, 04:50 AM
Russia will always be a gangster of Europe.

I sense paranoya.


Will always have imperial tendencies.

Care to elaborate what exactly do you mean by 'imperial tendencies'?


The only effective policy is to isolate Russia and pushing her from the borders of Europe.

What the hell does that even means? Russia is a part of Europe, deal with it.


Russia's policy in 1939 led to the outbreak of world war 2 world.

You are an idiot to claim such a thing. In every single instance Nazi Germany acted first and USSR reacted to secure its interests. In fact the only reason your own country exists today is because of these actions of USSR you are so stupid to condemn.


Today, Russia's policy in favor of only fanatical European leftists who hate America and naturally butlers Putin.

Today Russia is too busy sorting out it's own internal problems. It's only concerned with others as long as they affect its security, nothing else.

Crn Volk
10-02-2014, 05:06 AM
Europe extends to the Urals, so Russia is European

Ars Moriendi
10-02-2014, 05:13 AM
Europe extends to the Urals, so Russia is European

Ok... thanks for that.

What do you think of the Trans-Atlantic Free Trade Agreement?

Crn Volk
10-02-2014, 05:19 AM
Ok... thanks for that.

What do you think of the Trans-Atlantic Free Trade Agreement?

Sucks

Sarmatian
10-02-2014, 07:16 AM
Ok... thanks for that.

What do you think of the Trans-Atlantic Free Trade Agreement?

I can answer if you don't mind. It's like NATO but in economic sphere. NATO + TAFTA = EU is a new de-facto colony of USA.

Petros Houhoulis
10-03-2014, 05:06 AM
Do you think that Russia has the right to rule over the entire eastern Europe?
Russia together with Germany is co-responsible for the outbreak of World War 2. Russian-German Agreement of 23 August 1939. Encouraged Hitler to attack the Polish. September 17, 1939, the Russians attacked the Polish eastern border, and together with the Germans made ​​another partition of the Polish lands. Next was the aggression of Russia in Finland in winter 1939/1940 year and annexation of the Baltic states in 1940.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact
Estimates indicate that the aggression of Russia in the Baltic countries and Finland meant that these countries have lost about 10% of its population.

Quite true, but...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov–Ribbentrop_Pact_negotiations

Initially, the Soviets were also negotiating with France and Britain, and they wanted a pact covering Belgium, Greece, Turkey, Romania, Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Finland. They never reached a conclusion because Latvia and Estonia signed a non-aggresion pact with Germany. Another probable reson was that Stalin wanted the territories that Poland grabbed from Russia after WWI (which were predominantly populated with Ukrainians and Belorussians) and eventually got after WWII. Too bad that Britain had agreed to that transfer of Polish territory after WWI since the author of the Curzon line was a British diplomat... Which means that Britain, NAZI Germany and Soviet Russia all agreed even before WWII that parts of Poland should belong to Russia...

Since Poland would not agree to effectively cede those territories to Stalin by allowing Soviet troops within Poland, the Soviets broke off the talks with France and Britain, and agreed with NAZI Germany to divide East Europe between them.

Finland and Lithuania were probably the only innocent victims of this story, since Latvia and Estonia followed NAZI Germany and were betrayed to Soviet Russia by the NAZI Germans. Poland could not foresee that it had to choose between NAZI Germany and Soviet Russia, but instead the latter made their own choices about Poland...

Petros Houhoulis
10-03-2014, 05:35 AM
Dude, you and all of Russia mentally you are in the 19 century. Ukraine and Belarus are separate countries, and not part of Russia. Kievan Rus was destroyed by the Mongols in the 13th century and the Russian state is no longer the same state as Kievan Rus.
If you want to maintain good relationships between the countries of the former Kievan Rus', it Just do an agreement on the principles of good will. The attack on the Ukraine and detachment from the whole province is a flawed policy, because lead to hatred between Russians and Ukrainians.

Unfortunately, those who live in the 19th century are those who failed to settle the divisions of former Yugoslavia and Ukraine according to the wishes of those living in those countries.

When Yugoslavia was about to fall apart, the Serbs asked to have the Serb-dominated parts of Croatia and Bosnia join the Serbian state. Croatia, Bosnia and the Western states refused this, but also failed to accomodate the Serbian minorities in any meaningful way (like imposing local autonomy and the like) until the war broke out. The same story in reverse took place in Kossovo, but this time the Serbs - fearful of the previous NATO action against them in Bosnia - agreed to nearly everything except for independence for Kossovo (while they acted in an authoritarian manner in the past within Kossovo, Milosevic going as far as ditching its' autonomy at some point)

The same story was repeated again in Ukraine, with the Ukrainians attempting to ban both the Communist party of Ukraine and the use of the Russian language in Ukraine, immediately after Yanukovich lost power. Even though those measures were withdrawn due to the pressure of the European Union, that action was enough to trigger the annexation of Crimea by the Russians in a nearly bloodless coup, and just a couple of months later the Russians still within Ukrainian territory begun mobilizing, when actions like the burning of the Odessa Trade Unions House with 42 "pro-Russian" casualties proved to them that they had no future in Ukraine, and sought outright independence. The Ukrainians can only blame themselves for that mess, since they derailed their own democratic processes and failed to prevent foreign forces from meddling in their internal affairs. Nevertheless, both the annexation of Crimea and any further secession of Ukrainian territories remain illegal actions, but the Ukrainians have to understand that they cannot hold on to lands whose original inhabitants don't accept their rule, and must agree to an extended autonomy for all those regions.

Both in Former Yugoslavia and Ukraine, the failure was the result of leaders who deliberately chose conflict over minority rights, and this was 19th century thinking from their part.

Petros Houhoulis
10-03-2014, 05:52 AM
Bullshit. Russia will always be a gangster of Europe. Will always have imperial tendencies.

Not quite. For example, during the Middle Ages the Poles were those who attacked Russia first:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_Troubles


The Time of Troubles (Russian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language): Смутное время) was a period of Russian history (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Russia) comprising the years of interregnum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interregnum) between the death of the last Russian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsardom_of_Russia) Tsar (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar) of the Rurik Dynasty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik_Dynasty), Feodor Ivanovich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feodor_I_of_Russia), in 1598, and the establishment of the Romanov Dynasty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanov_Dynasty) in 1613. In 1601–1603, Russia suffered a famine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_famine_of_1601%E2%80%931603) that killed one-third of the population, about two million. At the time, Russia was occupied by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth) in the Dymytriads (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Muscovite_War_%281605%E2%80%931618% 29), and suffered from civil uprisings, usurpers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usurper) and impostors.

Russia suffered a lot during those years, and - ironically - the Poles could have gotten the Russian throne if Sigismund III Vasa was smart enough to allow his son to claim the Russian throne (instead of keeping it for himself) and not insisting upon the conversion of the Orthodox Russians to Catholics. Unfortunately he was dumb, and Russia has been pounding Poland ever since, with a few respites like the Polish victories in the end of WWI.


The only effective policy is to isolate Russia and pushing her from the borders of Europe.

It is impossible to isolate a country with the largest extend of territory on Earth and the most neighbors - 14 in total - than any other country on Earth. The only tangible result would be the attachment of Russia to China.


Russia's policy in 1939 led to the outbreak of world war 2 world.

Not really. Germany was planning the invasion of Poland even before the agreement between Ribbentrop and Molotov.


Today, Russia's policy in favor of only fanatical European leftists who hate America and naturally butlers Putin.

In reality modern Russia seems to be funding fanatical right wingers, like Golden Dawn, although it is most probable that Zhirinovski funds them. In any case, many Right wing European politicians like Le Pen and Farage seem sympathetic to Putin. Left wing European politicians have realized that Putin is just another capitalist...

Sandman
10-03-2014, 06:17 AM
Europe extends to the Urals, so Russia is European

Only in the geographical sense. Let's remember that until the 18th century, the boundary between the Polish-Lithuanian state and Russia, was considered to be the eastern border of Europe. It was not until the time of the Empress Catherine the Great (1762-1796), geographical border of Europe was set all the way to the Urals.

Ars Moriendi
10-03-2014, 06:23 AM
Only in the geographical sense. Let's remember that until the 18th century, the boundary between the Polish-Lithuanian state and Russia, was considered to be the eastern border of Europe. It was not until the time of the Empress Catherine the Great (1762-1796), geographical border of Europe was set all the way to the Urals.

You seem to have more of a problem with Russia than with Prussia (then Germany), even though the latter were the ones responsible for designing all of the 4 Polish partitions. Fitting of your views, thinking the EU+NATO are a great thing.

Had Poland-Lithuania joined in against Frederick II, we might have spared the world of a fair number of problems, remember that.

Sandman
10-03-2014, 06:34 AM
Not quite. For example, during the Middle Ages the Poles were those who attacked Russia first:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_Troubles



Russia suffered a lot during those years, and - ironically - the Poles could have gotten the Russian throne if Sigismund III Vasa was smart enough to allow his son to claim the Russian throne (instead of keeping it for himself) and not insisting upon the conversion of the Orthodox Russians to Catholics. Unfortunately he was dumb, and Russia has been pounding Poland ever since, with a few respites like the Polish victories in the end of WWI.It is impossible to isolate a country with the largest extend of territory on Earth and the most neighbors - 14 in total - than any other country on Earth. The only tangible result would be the attachment of Russia to China. Not really. Germany was planning the invasion of Poland even before the agreement between Ribbentrop and Molotov.

In reality modern Russia seems to be funding fanatical right wingers, like Golden Dawn, although it is most probable that Zhirinovski funds them. In any case, many Right wing European politicians like Le Pen and Farage seem sympathetic to Putin. Left wing European politicians have realized that Putin is just another capitalist...

Firstly, so-called. "Russian smut" not occurred in the Middle Ages, but continued in the years 1604-1613.:picard2:
Secondly, this "Great smut" in the early 17th century in Russia was not caused by the Poles, but it caused a dynastic crisis in Russia after the expiry of the Scandinavian dynasty of having start from Rurik. A big part in this crisis also had a Tsar Ivan the Terrible, who killed his son Ivan personally.
Polish King Sigismund Vasa was a realist, not sending his son to Moscow. The Russians never would accept the Catholic rulers and governments Polish lords and certainly the young prince would be murdered, as notorious "impostors".

Sandman
10-03-2014, 06:45 AM
You seem to have more of a problem with Russia than with Prussia (then Germany), even though the latter were the ones responsible for designing all of the 4 Polish partitions. Fitting of your views, thinking the EU+NATO are a great thing.

Had Poland-Lithuania joined in against Frederick II, we might have spared the world of a fair number of problems, remember that.
In its history, Poland had a lot more problems with Russia than with Germany. Besides Germany, are now under occupation by American and are not dangerous for Polish. Russia does not fully given up its imperial tendencies. After the temporary problems in the 90's of the 20th century now returned to expansion policy.

Nor56
10-03-2014, 07:45 AM
In its history, Poland had a lot more problems with Russia than with Germany. Besides Germany, are now under occupation by American and are not dangerous for Polish. Russia does not fully given up its imperial tendencies. After the temporary problems in the 90's of the 20th century now returned to expansion policy.

http://s009.radikal.ru/i309/1409/8e/f1f4eef24a51.jpg

Sandman
10-03-2014, 09:54 AM
Germany was planning the invasion of Poland even before the agreement between Ribbentrop and Molotov.
In reality modern Russia seems to be funding fanatical right wingers, like Golden Dawn, although it is most probable that Zhirinovski funds them. In any case, many Right wing European politicians like Le Pen and Farage seem sympathetic to Putin. Left wing European politicians have realized that Putin is just another capitalist...
Yes. Germany planned invasion of Poland before, but the agreement with Russia emboldened Hitler and accelerated attack. Western powers want to gain Russia into alliance against Germany. However, Stalin chose an agreement with Hitler, as Germany claimed that the entire Eastern Europe: Eastern Poland, the Baltic States, Finland, Bessarabia is an area of ​​Russian dominance.

In the second issue. Russia supports almost all those who are in opposition to America and the European Union. No matter whether left-wing or right-wing formations.
Yes. Putin is another filthy rich billionaire.

Ars Moriendi
10-12-2014, 04:04 AM
In its history, Poland had a lot more problems with Russia than with Germany. Besides Germany, are now under occupation by American and are not dangerous for Polish. Russia does not fully given up its imperial tendencies. After the temporary problems in the 90's of the 20th century now returned to expansion policy.

So basically, what you define as a "normal European country" (which is the thing that you've repeatedly state Russia should strive to be), is a place that you yourself admit would be under the command of ther Americans.

Sandman
10-12-2014, 06:49 AM
So basically, what you define as a "normal European country" (which is the thing that you've repeatedly state Russia should strive to be), is a place that you yourself admit would be under the command of ther Americans.

We may not like America, but the fact is that Americans are the guarantors of peace in Europe. The two world wars that were symbolic suicide for Europe, erupted at a time when America was in a period of lack of interest in European affairs. If not American power, what would stop Russia from complete occupation of Ukraine? Nothing. Ukraine in the short time would be occupied by Russia. Countries of Western Europe are too weak and there is in them will deter Putin. Russia wants to displace American influence in Europe. Then Russia could easily pursue their imperialist policies. In fact, Europe lives under the umbrella of American power. Of course, this is not a reason for glory that Europe is dependent on its former colonies.
For me, Russia is the negation of "normal European country". To be a "normal European country" Russia must fulfill several conditions. Abandon imperialist aspirations (this means respect for the sovereignty of states formed after the breakup of the Soviet Union), eliminate doctrine based on nationalism and xenophobia, adhere to the principles of democracy.