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VAARON
12-02-2013, 09:49 AM
Hundreds of thousands take to streets in protest at decision to back away from EU integration pact

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/12/1/1385923511349/Ukrainian-protesters-011.jpg

Ukraine saw its largest popular protests since the 2004 Orange Revolution on Sunday when at least 300,000 people took to the streets calling for the resignation of the president, Viktor Yanukovych.

Furious at Ukraine's 11th-hour decision to back away from an EU integration pact in favour of closer relations with Russia, Ukrainians defied a court ban on protests. On the fringes, the mood turned violent as small groups of protesters stormed government buildings and clashed with riot police outside the presidential offices. About 200 masked protesters commandeered a mechanical digger and attempted to break through lines of armour-clad riot police.

The anger was galvanised by the violent break-up of a sit-in protest in Independence Square early on Saturday, when several hundred riot police dispersed the 1,000-strong crowd of mainly students, causing a number of casualties. City authorities claimed they needed to empty the square so a giant Christmas tree could be erected.

Early on Sunday, a Kiev court banned all rallies at Independence Square, but people flocked there in their thousands nonetheless. The Christmas tree was hung with Ukrainian flags and protesters waved yellow and blue Ukrainian and EU flags, with which many adorned their cars, honking horns in support of the protest rally. Chants went up of "Glory to the nation, death to its enemies" and "Out with the criminal", referring to Yanukovych's Soviet past as a petty criminal, as well as allegations of corruption in his inner circle.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/12/1/1385923940567/Ukrainian-protesters-in-d-011.jpg

Pavlo Tumanov, 38, a doctor from Kiev, had stripes in the colours of the Ukrainian and EU flags tied to his hands. "I came to support the students who were brutally beaten yesterday. I'm sure Yanukovych ordered that, and was advised by Putin," he said, adding that it would be hard to oust the regime peacefully.

Opposition leaders spoke to the crowd from a small, hastily constructed stage, on which was written "Ukraine is Europe".

"This is not a meeting. This is not a rally. This is revolution," Yury Lutsenko, the opposition leader and former interior minister, told the crowd. People shouted back: "Revolution!"

The Polish politician Jacek Protasiewicz, vice-president of the European parliament, told the crowd: "You are part of Europe." The crowd roared back approvingly.

"Yanukovych is a political corpse," said Oleg Stavytsky, a 49-year-old engineer from Kiev, brandishing the EU flag. "After he spat in the face of Ukraine and Europe, he should realise that the only solution for him is to resign." Tatiana Troshkova, a 55-year-old economist from a town on the outskirts of Kiev, held a placard that read "Ukraine, rise!" "The west of Ukraine is already at this square. We want people from the Donbas [Yanukovych's stronghold in the east] to join us," she said, adding that she would be coming back to the streets every day for as long as she had the strength.

The protests demonstrated once again how divided Ukraine is, with the southern and eastern regions largely supporting closer relations with Russia, while the west and most of the centre focus on European integration.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/12/1/1385924218110/Ukrainian-protesters-with-011.jpg

The EU pact, which was to have been signed at a summit in Vilnius last Friday, would have given Ukraine freer trade with Europe, but Yanukovych said it took no account of the ailing state of the country's economy, and that Europe did not offer the financial help required for modernisation. Russia had been staunchly against the deal, and it is believed Moscow offered financial incentives for Ukraine not to sign, with threats of punitive measures if it did.

Yanukovych's imprisoned rival Yulia Tymoshenko released a statement from hospital railing against the president until his regime was toppled. "I appeal to all Ukrainian people to resist and rise up against Yanukovych and his dictatorship," she wrote.

Tymoshenko led the Orange Revolution which stopped Yanukovych coming to power, but after years of disappointment and infighting, he won presidential elections in 2010. Shortly afterwards, Tymoshenko was jailed on charges widely believed to be politically motivated, and she is in a prison hospital in the eastern city of Kharkiv. She announced a hunger strike after Yanukovych said he would not sign the EU deal.

Other opposition leaders declared a national strike and called on people to block government buildings, demanding the resignation of the government and president.

However, the protest turned violent. Some protesters used gas, knives and smoke bombs against police lines. About 100 police had been injured in the clashes near the building by Sunday afternoon, according to the interior ministry, and 12 soldiers were also injured.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/12/1/1385923821798/Ukrainian-riot-police-011.jpg

With Tymoshenko marginalised, Vitaly Klitschko, the heavyweight boxing champion who is one of Ukraine's main opposition leaders, is seen as the main threat to Yanukovych at the next presidential elections in 2015. On Sunday evening, he called on his supporters to remain calm and denounced the attempts to seize buildings by force.

"They stole the dream," he told the crowds on Independence Square. "If this government does not want to fulfil the will of the people, then there will be no such government, there will be no such president. There will be a new government and a new president."

Far-right nationalist leader Oleh Tyahnybok, meanwhile, called for workers' support. "From this day, we are starting a strike," he declared. If the idea of a national strike gains support, it will be a sure sign that the protests are more than just a flash in the pan.

All the opposition leaders denied any involvement with the violence, and accused the authorities of using hired thugs to create provocations. Order appeared to have been restored by Sunday night, with rows of riot police standing guard behind metal fences.

Arseniy Yatseniuk, leader of the Baktyvshchina party, told journalists he believed the clashes had been provoked as an excuse for Yanukovych to declare a state of emergency on Monday.

Inna Bohoslovska, a former ally of Yanukovych who left the president's party in protest against the bloody crackdown on protests in recent days, accused the Russian president, Vladimir Putin, and his Ukrainian ally Viktor Medvedchuk, leader of the Ukrainsky Vybor group, of masterminding provocations in Kiev.

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/12/1/1385924072505/Ukrainian-protesters-on-g-011.jpg

Yanukovych's next move will be crucial. Over the weekend he criticised the violence, and insisted the country was still on the path to European integration. He was believed to be meeting his advisers at his country residence outside Kiev. Aides to Yanukovych said he still planned to travel to China on a long-planned trip on Wednesday, after which he is due in Moscow.

Here (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/01/ukraine-largest-street-protests-orange-revolution)

VAARON
12-02-2013, 09:52 AM
Backing away from EU integration pact means getting closer to Putinism (путинизм (https://www.google.com/search?q=Putinism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=fflb)). Ukrainians are brave and know what's good for them. They know corruption and authoritarianism are contagious and want to keep away from it.

BeerBaron
12-02-2013, 10:01 AM
This is silly, russia and the ukraine practically invented corruption and authoritarianism.

Ever openly bribe a cop in the street because they expect it? no because you're an american teenager that believes the west is the most evil thing since they shut down twitter or whatever stupid social site.

You would have made that bribe in the ukraine, assuming you could afford it.

Stalin killed millions of russians and ukrainians, I dont see obama gunning down americans.

Acquisitor
12-02-2013, 10:02 AM
Ukraine would cost the EU tax payer a lot of money while bringing nothing on the table except for a very poor bankrupted country run by worthless politicians.

so this development is good.

VAARON
12-02-2013, 10:06 AM
This is silly, russia and the ukraine practically invented corruption and authoritarianism.

Ever openly bribe a cop in the street because they expect it? no because you're an american teenager that believes the west is the most evil thing since they shut down twitter or whatever stupid social site.

You would have made that bribe in the ukraine, assuming you could afford it.

Stalin killed millions of russians and ukrainians, I dont see obama gunning down americans.

hey fellow northern american :p i don't think the west is the most evil, i think people who did noy analyze thing objectively see it that way.
I think you maybe misunderstood me. actually my family bribed cops in other countries after speed driving, but not in america. maybe ukraine has something with inventing those terrible things that caused so much suffering, but now they reject it, they want to be more American and Western and Putin won't let them. they don't want putin's corruption, oppression - they want freedom and they cry out for it from the bottom of their hearts.

VAARON
12-02-2013, 10:09 AM
Ukraine would cost the EU tax payer a lot of money while bringing nothing on the table except for a very poor bankrupted country run by worthless politicians.

so this development is good.

that exactly what they want to change. i think you should support this call for change, they are hard working people that are willing to benefit from freedom. they don't protest only for formal join- they protest as a whole changing movement, to change the whole country.

Acquisitor
12-02-2013, 10:16 AM
that exactly what they want to change. i think you should support this call for change, they are hard working people that are willing to benefit from freedom. they don't protest only for formal join; they protest as a whole changing movement, to change the whole country.

they may do that, but not at my expense.

VAARON
12-02-2013, 10:18 AM
they may do that, but not at my expense.

of course not. i think you should support them by allowing them to support themselves. cheap labor for western Europe, more investments into Ukraine from west and they're economy will get better and they will be more western and have a healthier political system.

Acquisitor
12-02-2013, 10:23 AM
of course not. i think you should support them by allowing them to support themselves. cheap labor for western Europe, more investments into Ukraine from west and they're economy will get better and they will be more western and have a healthier political system.

I dont think I should support them. They are poor, the country is poor and has an enormous debt.

Cheap labor for WE translates into factories leaving WE and jobs relocating. It also means an inflow of poor people. Our banks should be investing money HERE and not in a bankrupt poor country.

Empecinado
12-02-2013, 10:23 AM
Fuck EU, destroyer of nations!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/%27EUSSR_flag%27,_combination_of_EU_flag_and_USSR_ hammer_and_sickle.gif

VAARON
12-02-2013, 10:26 AM
I dont think I should support them. They are poor, the country is poor and has an enormous debt.

Cheap labor for WE translates into factories leaving WE and jobs relocating. It also means an inflow of poor people. Our banks should be investing money HERE and not in a bankrupt poor country.

i think that's a very bad economical analysis. no factories will leave as a working country is also a buying country. Ukrainians also are consumers and better economy consumers more creating more jobs. as long as they is freedom, everyone will benefit from it,.

Acquisitor
12-02-2013, 10:30 AM
i think that's a very bad economical analysis. no factories will leave as a working country is also a buying country. Ukrainians also are consumers and better economy consumers more creating more jobs. as long as they is freedom, everyone will benefit from it,.

you don't understand it.

An average Ukrainian worker is not productive at all.

the only way for Ukraine to become a productive country would be to overflow it with free money.

It would take generations for them to become productive and hard working. There is also something called being efficient at work. One can work hard without being efficient. There is a large gap between a working Ukrainian and a working W European.

The entire psychology of the country would need to change for it to fit in the EU and to stop being a problem child.

I say NO. Ukrainian membership would cost Europe very dearly short term, and possible dividends could be ripped off generations from now.

so NO to the Ukrainian membership. Absolute NO.

I want the factories to stay HERE. I also want the banks to invest my money into the LOCAL economy.

period.

VAARON
12-02-2013, 10:32 AM
Fuck EU, destroyer of nations!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/%27EUSSR_flag%27,_combination_of_EU_flag_and_USSR_ hammer_and_sickle.gif

i think you don't know what communism is!

why all the thumbs down? not very welcoming people here...and i still need activation, and no one help me :p

VAARON
12-02-2013, 10:34 AM
you don't understand it.

An average Ukrainian worker is not productive at all.

the only way for Ukraine to become a productive country would be to overflow it with free money.

It would take generations for them to become productive and hard working. There is also something called being efficient at work. One can work hard without being efficient. There is a large gap between a working Ukrainian and a working W European.

The entire psychology of the country would need to change for it to fit in the EU and to stop being a problem child.

I say NO. Ukrainian membership would cost Europe very dearly short term, and possible dividends could be ripped off generations from now.

so NO to the Ukrainian membership. Absolute NO.

I want the factories to stay HERE. I also want the banks to invest my money into the LOCAL economy.

period.


all that control...you sound like a socialist :p
i already debunked the what you wrote....why you repeat it? this model has already been proven in other poor countries - as long as people follow it, it will bring wealth to all people who participate in it.

Acquisitor
12-02-2013, 10:40 AM
all that control...you sound like a socialist :p
i already debunked the what you wrote....why you repeat it? this model has already been proven in other poor countries - as long as people follow it, it will bring wealth to all people who participate in it.

this model has absolutely NOT been proven with other poor countries.

you don't know what you are talking about.

Countries of the same caliber as Ukraine are: Romania, Bulgaria and some other's have NOT improved while having digested tens of billions of €'s which they got from the EU.

you didn't debunk anything, you are a 16yo kid living in the US, detached from reality of Europe.

why don't you concentrate on poor places in the US, places like Detroit and other shitholes which suck money in while giving nothing in return.

VAARON
12-02-2013, 10:46 AM
this model has absolutely NOT been proven with other poor countries.

you don't know what you are talking about.

Countries of the same caliber as Ukraine are: Romania, Bulgaria and some other's have NOT improved while having digested tens of billions of €'s which they got from the EU.

you didn't debunk anything, you are a 16yo kid living in the US, detached from reality of Europe.

why don't you concentrate on poor places in the US, places like Detroit and other shitholes which suck money in while giving nothing in return.

yes it has, just look at Georgia. if you will continue being a socilaist and attack me given my age and location while ignoring what i write, i will not reply to such socialists.
yes because you impose that kind of socialism you're trying to impose on me right now. ukraina wants freedom! support they're freedom!

Acquisitor
12-02-2013, 11:00 AM
yes it has, just look at Georgia. if you will continue being a socilaist and attack me given my age and location while ignoring what i write, i will not reply to such socialists.
yes because you impose that kind of socialism you're trying to impose on me right now. ukraina wants freedom! support they're freedom!

I'm not a socialist, you don't know what socialism is.

Georgia is not a member of the EU, so why do you use it as an example and why do you bring it into this discussion ?

Ukraina can go fuck itself, there is nothing to take there yet everything to give. No thanks.

they will default soon unless Putin cuts them a slack, and it looks like he will.

Ukraine is too inferior to be in the EU, it will only suck in resources and accumulate debt. Going back to Putin is the best solution for the country. It's where it belongs.

Empecinado
12-02-2013, 11:05 AM
i think you don't know what communism is!

why all the thumbs down? not very welcoming people here...and i still need activation, and no one help me :p

I know what it is. Let's compare:

USSR: bureaucracy. European Parliament, European Commission
EU: bureaucracy. Soviet Supreme, Politburo

USSR: Gosplan (economic planning committee), they planned everything in the economy
EU: 80.000 pages of legislation on regulations. They assign to every euro-country and euro-region an economic function. EU continuosly is creating new regulations and prohibitions every day.

USSR: KGB
EU: project to create the Europol, that will have diplomatic immunity and will have jurisdiction over 32 crimes, for example "racism" and "xenophobia". Anyone who show objection to uncontrolled immigration from the Third World will be considered racist or xenophobic.

USSR: ideology based on Marxism.
EU: ideology based on cultural Marxism (Frankfurt School) and political correctness.

USSR: population transfers following the central government decisions and interests
EU: population transfers from Third World following the central government decisions and interests

In the free EU, ALL is basically forbidden except what they say is allowed. Even the most irrelevant things. For example:

-It is forbidden for restaurants to use not sealed oilers.
-It is forbidden to have unregistered solar panels (register=pay a tax)
-You need to pay energy certificates to sell your home.
-It is forbidden to grow food or produce milk without permission of the CAP.

Not a Cop
12-02-2013, 05:08 PM
I know what it is. Let's compare:

USSR: bureaucracy. European Parliament, European Commission
EU: bureaucracy. Soviet Supreme, Politburo

USSR: Gosplan (economic planning committee), they planned everything in the economy
EU: 80.000 pages of legislation on regulations. They assign to every euro-country and euro-region an economic function. EU continuosly is creating new regulations and prohibitions every day.

USSR: KGB
EU: project to create the Europol, that will have diplomatic immunity and will have jurisdiction over 32 crimes, for example "racism" and "xenophobia". Anyone who show objection to uncontrolled immigration from the Third World will be considered racist or xenophobic.

USSR: ideology based on Marxism.
EU: ideology based on cultural Marxism (Frankfurt School) and political correctness.

USSR: population transfers following the central government decisions and interests
EU: population transfers from Third World following the central government decisions and interests

In the free EU, ALL is basically forbidden except what they say is allowed. Even the most irrelevant things. For example:

-It is forbidden for restaurants to use not sealed oilers.
-It is forbidden to have unregistered solar panels (register=pay a tax)
-You need to pay energy certificates to sell your home.
-It is forbidden to grow food or produce milk without permission of the CAP.

Indeed, in USSR you were doing what you were told, in modern Europe you can do anything that is not forbiden by 80.000 pages;)