How many pagan ideas in chistianity would you find

[Lulletje Rozewater]

1.Trinity
2.Eucharist
3.Reborn
3.Satan
4.Mary and Child
5.Water into wine
6.Son of God
7. Xmas gifts,but you get nothing for Xmas if you do not believe(mother to child)
8.Healing the sick
9.Heaven
Any one has more to offer??? There are plenty more

[SwordoftheVistula]

The 'saints' basically take the role of the lesser gods, and the easter and christmas celebrations were basically appropriated wholesale from Christian sources

[Lulletje Rozewater]

The 'saints' basically take the role of the lesser gods, and the easter and christmas celebrations were basically appropriated wholesale from Christian sources

Forgot about that.
How about Ash-wednesday
and the Holy water and the Cross

[Cato]

1.Trinity
2.Eucharist
3.Reborn
3.Satan
4.Mary and Child
5.Water into wine
6.Son of God
7. Xmas gifts,but you get nothing for Xmas if you do not believe(mother to child)
8.Healing the sick
9.Heaven
Any one has more to offer??? There are plenty more

Baptism.

[Óttar]

Tripartite World:

Heaven.
Purgatory.
Hell.

[MeorgeGichaels]

Did you mention virgin birth?
A god with human emotions
Redemption
Sacrifice
Ancestral punishment (punishment for the sins of the fathers).

[Wölfin]

Halos = Solar discs.
The story of Jesus Christ. Son of God born on the winter solstice (like most sun gods). 12 disciples, eventually dies for sins of sorts, stays dead for 3 days and then comes back to life.
Also the Bible speaks of astrological ages. Taurus, the golden bull damned by Moses (going from age of taurus to age of aries, the ram). Jesus' fish represents pisces. Can't remember which passage but he also gives instructions for the future of meeting a man that will serve water, Aquarius (the water-bearer).

[Cato]

One more: the flood story.

[Gaztelu]

Crucifixion is a form of the death penalty that was used long before the birth of Jesus, although I am not sure about its origins though.

[Jamt]

The whole Catholic faith is pagan and non-Christian in my opinion.

[heathen_son]

1.Trinity
2.Eucharist
3.Reborn
3.Satan
4.Mary and Child
5.Water into wine
6.Son of God
7. Xmas gifts,but you get nothing for Xmas if you do not believe(mother to child)
8.Healing the sick
9.Heaven
Any one has more to offer??? There are plenty more

What do you mean by Heaven and how is it pagan?

What do you mean by Reborn and how is it pagan?

What do you mean by Satan and how is it pagan?

[Talvi]

What do you mean by Heaven and how is it pagan?

What do you mean by Reborn and how is it pagan?

What do you mean by Satan and how is it pagan?

Im not sure about Satan and Heaven but rebirth is something present in pretty much every un-monotheistic religion.

[heathen_son]

In regards to Germanic Heathenry, I am not so sure. Seems like a lot of effort was made to make sure the dead stayed dead, and that once you were in the burial mound, that was where you stayed.

Evidence to the contrary?

[Murphy]

1.Trinity

The Trinity is not found in any other religion.


2.Eucharist

The Eucharist is not found in any other religion.


3.Reborn

Rebirth (in the sense of reincarnation) is not located in Christian theology.


3.Satan

He is a common enemy of humanity and the wide scope of human culture and myth demonstrates this.


4.Mary and Child

What about the Blessed Virgin and Blessed Child?


5.Water into wine

Not that I am aware of.


6.Son of God

Is not found in any other religion.


7. Xmas gifts,but you get nothing for Xmas if you do not believe(mother to child)

Is not found in Christian theology.


8.Healing the sick

A common event in human history. The fact that Christ Jesus also healed the sick simply further demonstrates that healing comes from God.


9.Heaven

In Catholic theology all men have this in-built sense of the world in them. Morality and a general history of Man etc. The afterlife and longing for our ultimate end (God) is one of these things imbued in men by the Divine. So it can be found throughout human history.

[Murphy]

The 'saints' basically take the role of the lesser gods, and the easter and christmas celebrations were basically appropriated wholesale from Christian sources

So the pagans used to celebrate Easter, the Passion, Death and Resurrection of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ and the Birth of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ in a manger?

Though pagans were something. Didn't know their shamans could see into the future!

What a lot of people tend to forget is that cultural timings mean nothing. Easter will still be Easter whether it's celebrated at the height of summer or in the coldest frosts of winter. It's about the historical event of the Passion, Death and Resurrection. That's why Christians celebrate.

Not Easter Eggs.

[Murphy]

Ancestral punishment (punishment for the sins of the fathers).

First of all it's the position of the Catholic Church that the sins of the father are not visited on the son. And the doctrine of Original Sin is not dealing with actual sin. Being born in Original Sin is simply being born without the free gift of God's grace. Man does not deserve this grace, he is not even owed this grace. God is under no obligation to provide any man with grace.

However.. His grace is always there for us.

[Loddfafner]

The Trinity is not found in any other religion.
...
The Eucharist is not found in any other religion.


As for trinities, there are some significant triple divine configurations:
Odin/Thor/Freyr
Vishnu/Shiva/Brahma

As for the eucharist and eating the body of Christ, I understand there are similar customs in remote regions of New Guinea. Instead of substituting a stale piece of bread, they use missionaries.

[Murphy]

As for trinities, there are some significant triple divine configurations:
Odin/Thor/Freyr
Vishnu/Shiva/Brahma

These are indeed trinities of gods. But they're not the Trinitarian God of Christian theology.


As for the eucharist and eating the body of Christ, I understand there are similar customs in remote regions of New Guinea. Instead of substituting a stale piece of bread, they use missionaries.

:rolleyes2:..

[Groenewolf]

Evidence to the contrary?

The cremations. The things to ensure the death do not rise could actually more point to the believe that the non-material part of someone did not immediately depart or that (part of) it could remain behind for a certain amount of time.

[Talvi]

6.Son of God
Is not found in any other religion.



I wouldnt be so sure about that. There are places where people believe/have believed their whole nation has descended from a deities. For example - Japan.

Also I think that there was this.. "research" or book/collection of myths or whatever about the Dogon tribe myths who are a native African tribe and are animist.. and their myths are a likely origin of the Christian faith since most of the stories had elements crucial to Christianity in them. Rebirth, virgin birth, "eating and drinking the god", crucifixion etc.


According to the myth related to Griaule and Dieterlen: "The Nommo divided his body among men to feed them; that is why it is also said that as the universe "had drunk of his body," the Nommo also made men drink. He gave all his life principles to human beings." The Nommo was crucified on a tree, but was resurrected and returned to his home world. Dogon legend has it that he will return in the future to revisit the Earth in a human form.

[Murphy]

I wouldnt be so sure about that.

I am.


There are places where people believe/have believed their whole nation has descended from a deities. For example - Japan.

Show me one religion in the world in which can be found more than a superficial resemblance to the Son of God, the Second Divine Person of the Most Holy Trinity of Christian theology.

There is a marked difference between Christ's Sonship and Heracles sonship from Zeus for example.


Also I think that there was this.. "research" or book/collection of myths or whatever about the Dogon tribe myths who are a native African tribe and are animist.. and their myths are a likely origin of the Christian faith since most of the stories had elements crucial to Christianity in them. Rebirth, virgin birth, "eating and drinking the god", crucifixion etc.

Please provide sources for the above. I would be very interested in how a people from Mali are the "likely origin of the Christian faith".

[Talvi]

I am.

Show me one religion in the world in which can be found more than a superficial resemblance to the Son of God, the Second Divine Person of the Most Holy Trinity of Christian theology.

There is a marked difference between Christ's Sonship and Heracles sonship from Zeus for example.


Please provide sources for the above. I would be very interested in how a people from Mali are the "likely origin of the Christian faith".

Im sure you can google it yourself, I provided the name of the tribe.

http://themasterofspeech.com/worldmyths.html

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/mitos_creacion/esp_mitoscreacion_1.htm

http://books.google.com/books?id=yDa9AAAAIAAJ&dq=nommo&source=gbs_navlinks_s

If you want to read something from books and such, feel free to find them yourself.

[Murphy]

Oh I did Google it and all I found was some crack-pot theories about aliens. Hardly credible are they? As this is based on the insane theories of one man, namely Robert K. G. Temple.

And you desire one to take him as a credible source?

[Talvi]

Oh I did Google it and all I found was some crack-pot theories about aliens. Hardly credible are they? As this is based on the insane theories of one man, namely Robert K. G. Temple.

And you desire one to take him as a credible source?

The alien theories are crackpot, but that doesnt mean they arent real myths of these people. They have just been badly interpreted by crazy people. I dont think I gave you any links to that guys works though, if you bothered to click. You can also find many of the real myths without the alien connotations on google books, for example.

[Murphy]

The alien theories are crackpot, but that doesnt mean they arent real myths of these people. They have just been badly interpreted by crazy people. I dont think I gave you any links to that guys works though, if you bothered to click. You can also find many of the real myths without the alien connotations on google books, for example.

The links you gave me were based on that man's works and most everything you've reported are based on his interpretations. For instance Nommo was a created being, Jesus Christ is not a created being. Nommo also was split into several different beings. Jesus Christ has a couple of twins running about eh? I suppose if Judas was Christ's twin who turned evil you may be on to something but.. right now.. no. I have also found no record of anything similar to the Most Holy Eucharist. When one of the Nommos was sacrificed their body was indeed dismembered and scattered through-out the universe but a) Christ's Body is Whole and One and b) the Dogon do not believe that they consume the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Nommos.

Like I said some crackpot has taken a random and obscure African tribe (with an admittedly well developed mythology) and set them up as something they are not.

[Talvi]

Like I said some crackpot has taken a random and obscure African tribe (with an admittedly well developed mythology) and set them up as something they are not.

But thats exactly the same thing Christianity is. Small ideas that have gone out of hands and that have been turned into something that they are not.

Also my links are based on Shannon Dorey, the second one just mentions Robert Temple and his book but also anthropologists Griaule and Dieterlen, who wrote down the original myths. Which you can read from the book The Pale Fox.
http://www.amazon.com/Pale-Fox-M-Griaule/dp/0939118025

The essay in the book which link I posted is also based on Griaule and Dieterlen. So your observation that all my links are based on Robert Temple... are wrong. So Ill ask again, did you even read what the links contain?

[Murphy]

But thats exactly the same thing Christianity is. Small ideas that have gone out of hands and that have been turned into something that they are not.

Excuse me?


So Ill ask again, did you even read what the links contain?

I will concede that I have obviously failed to look at your links closely enough.


Also my links are based on Shannon Dorey, the second one just mentions Robert Temple and his book but also anthropologists Griaule and Dieterlen, who wrote down the original myths. Which you can read from the book The Pale Fox.
http://www.amazon.com/Pale-Fox-M-Griaule/dp/0939118025

The essay in the book which link I posted is also based on Griaule and Dieterlen. So your observation that all my links are based on Robert Temple... are wrong.

And so I took a closer look. And again I find them to be nothing but unreliable. Griaule for example has an obvious bias in his works (compare his studies to Walter van Beek's and try and explain why they are quite markedly different).

I'm sorry but out of the myriad of other sources you could have went with my dear.. you chose this?

[Talvi]

Excuse me?

I will concede that I have obviously failed to look at your links closely enough.


And so I took a closer look. And again I find them to be nothing but unreliable. Griaule for example has an obvious bias in his works (compare his studies to Walter van Beek's and try and explain why they are quite markedly different).

I'm sorry but out of the myriad of other sources you could have went with my dear.. you chose this?

Yes, my apologies, my life isnt concentrated on looking evidence for you from the net.

Nevertheless, the Dogon mythology is animist and has similarities to Christianity. Because on some level all animist/pagan beliefs include similar views that monotheism has its roots in.

[heathen_son]

The cremations. The things to ensure the death do not rise could actually more point to the believe that the non-material part of someone did not immediately depart or that (part of) it could remain behind for a certain amount of time.

The "hal" (luck) of a person may stay around after death (hence bodies of sacral kings being divided and spread across their kingdoms to ensure a fair spread of their success/power/order), but to me that does not equate to a belief in the concept of reincarnation, or rebirth of the soul.

[Groenewolf]

The "hal" (luck) of a person may stay around after death (hence bodies of sacral kings being divided and spread across their kingdoms to ensure a fair spread of their success/power/order), but to me that does not equate to a belief in the concept of reincarnation, or rebirth of the soul.

Correct if I am wrong, but it now seems you are now stating that a part of persons essence may stay in the grave while the rest goes away. While it appeared that in the post I responded to that you stated all the essence stays in the burial mouth.

Now for the element of reincarnation the only evidence for it I can remember are three sagas in the Elder Edda.

[Óttar]

Roman Christianity is essentially another mystery religion like the mystery religions of the Hellenistic period. Unfortunately, it is the least interesting, and worse still, the least tolerant. I would be completely satisfied had a religion like Mithraism, or Sol Invictus/Emperor Worship became the official State Religion of the Empire, and so the dominant religion of the western world. You can be sure that had this taken place, the other religions/cults (Cybele, Isis, Dea Syria, Odin, Thor, Slavic deities etc.) including Christianity would still be around, incorporated into the imperial cult perhaps, but tolerated nonetheless.

[Юлия]

At first, I want to ask very faithful people not to take our discussion too close to heart. Eventually, such theme has been created and we simply express own opinion ;)

I cannot name myself the coryphaeus of religion, but I will try to discuss :) Paganism is a polytheistic religion, idolatry; while Christianity is considered monotheistic religion. BUT besides God, Christians revere various Saints, guardian angels, apostles, prophets, martyrs etc... Therefore it seems to me that Church dogmas about iconolatry, cult of Saints and their relics, crucifix cult, worship of sacred places or holy water can be borrowed from pagan tradition. In paganism there was a similar state of affairs: adoration of gods, and each of them was responsible for individual creations and elements (for example, god of a yield, god of a thunderstorm, god of Other World etc.). Christians have Saints instead of gods, and every Saint is responsible for his area, for certain sphere of a secular and spiritual life (for example, Patron Saint of family, Patron Saint of certain profession, Patron Saint of certain land and place, Protector from cruelty, Patroness of Julia :D and so forth). In the ancient time people could come to idea of the One God. There is a great number of gods, and they had a logical question which they could not answer: "Whence gods came?". But questions without the answers (and all unknown things) were explained by gods existence. Therefore they have drawn a conclusion, that all these gods were created by some super-god. Look, the same in Christianity as well: the One God has created angels "in His image and likeness"; prophets are the people with God-given talent...

Moreover, such vestiges of paganism like superstitions, murders, sacrifices etc. are echoed in Christianity in the form of crusades, fires of the Inquisition, witch-hunts etc.

Slavic Christmas tradition "колядовать" (to sing carols and collect gifts on Christmas), was taken from paganism, I think.

But, maybe, we should distinguish the word of God (revelation) from the Holy Scripture (perception of revelation). After all, the Bible, God's laws, all traditions of Christianity were written and created by people, who tend to fantasies and fabrications :p ;) It is a matter of hermeneutic principles: everyone perceives religion in own way. But your personal understanding is not always equivalent to the truth, because it's subjective. And Bible speaks about things concerning iconolatry, Saints cults etc:


"You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments".


"...he [LORD] commanded them: Do not worship any other gods or bow down to them, serve them or sacrifice to them..."


"...Dear children, keep yourselves from idols..."


"...Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars-all the heavenly array-do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven..."

So the most important problem, in my mind, that modern Christianity is pseudo-Christianity, and people are engaged in a pharisaism more, rather than in understanding of true religion gist. I always thought the main thing in the Bible is the Ten Commandments: do not kill, do not steal, honor your father and your mother, do not bear false witness and so forth. This is universal moral standards :thumb001:

And eventually, whether belief in the supernatural is the common thing in paganism and Christianity? :) ;)

[Boudica]

Lol it's obvious that the way the Devil is described in Christianity was taken from the Pagan's horned god, which is why ignorant Christians think that since Pagans worship a horned god they worship the "devil".. It's obvious that they did this to make Paganism look evil.. I wonder why the stereotypical witch is depicted as being evil and looking disgusting with a big nose.. They turned anything that was outside of their religion into being "evil", and did everything in their power to belittle it and make it look as bad as possible..

[Murphy]

Lol it's obvious that the way the Devil is described in Christianity was taken from the Pagan's horned god

So the pagan horned god is an angelic being that fell from the heights of the heavenly court out of pride? After all that is the correct description of the devil in Christian theology.

Otherwise you have simply came up with a rather superficial understanding of these things. Don't worry though.. this happens a lot.


which is why ignorant Christians think that since Pagans worship a horned god they worship the "devil"..

No.. Christians believe pagans worship the devil because pagans worship false idols.

[Murphy]

So the most important problem, in my mind, that modern Christianity is pseudo-Christianity, and people are engaged in a pharisaism more, rather than in understanding of true religion gist.

I'm sorry but the only appropriate response I can muster to your post is a heartfelt "bull shit".

[Boudica]

So the pagan horned god is an angelic being that fell from the heights of the heavenly court out of pride? After all that is the correct description of the devil in Christian theology.

Otherwise you have simply came up with a rather superficial understanding of these things. Don't worry though.. this happens a lot.



No.. Christians believe pagans worship the devil because pagans worship false idols.

When I said description I meant what the devil is described as looking like.. The devil having horns, hoofs, and a tail or whatever is a main depiction of him in Christianity..
http://mattstone.blogs.com/photos/christian_art_anime/flanders_devil.gif
I wasn't talking about the Devil's origins, I'm well aware of the contents in the Bible..

Christians may believe that Pagans are evil for worshiping 'false' idols, but many Christians also believe that the Pagan's god (the horned god) represents the Devil..

[Boudica]

Speaking of outside 'ideas' in Christianity, the old testament's creation tale was taken from the Sumerian's creation tale, (the Sumerian's were the first civilization, and developed the first forms of writing, mathematics, etc) The Sumerian's creation tale was written much longer before the old testament's creation tale was written, and the writers of the Bible's creation tale used everything in the Sumerian's creation tale, however worded things around so it would suit their religion a bit better, instead of the religion's creation tale that it was taken from.

[Psychonaut]

How many pagan ideas in chistianity would you find?

For starters...
Emanation metaphysics
The Cappadocian formula of "three hypostases in one ousia"
The structuring of the angelic hierarchies

[Óttar]

His headdress has a sun on it. His book, "The Light of the World" ? A title approved by a Jew who walked around in the desert 2,000 years ago? The 'Light of the World' is the Sun, you stupes.

http://jim93277.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/povertypope.jpg

[heathen_son]

Correct if I am wrong, but it now seems you are now stating that a part of persons essence may stay in the grave while the rest goes away. While it appeared that in the post I responded to that you stated all the essence stays in the burial mouth.

Talvi made the claim that rebirth is ubiquitously pagan, but what she meant by rebirth, I do not know. I presume she meant some sort of soul rebirth within another body. In post #1, I suggested that the dead go to the mound and efforts are made by the living to keep them there, infering that there is no "rebirth of the soul". I did not incorporate any conceptions of essence, or non-materiality, and did not infer that "all the essence stays in the grave". That was not part of my terminology in that post, but something that you introduced in your reply.

Hope that clarifies.

On the subject though, I agree with your reply, if by non-material you are talking about the concept of hal, which stays with the body before eventually departing. However, if you are talking about "the soul" departing and being reborn in another form, I would disagree.

It might be a bit convoluted, but I think we agree :)

[Юлия]

I'm sorry but the only appropriate response I can muster to your post is a heartfelt "bull shit".

Nice opinion :rolleyes:
I have nothing against religion or against your religious feelings. It's only an area for discussion. It was my supposition, not 100% statement. I did not pass my opinion for an ultimate truth or something.

I have cited the Bible. Moreover I was reading reasonings of one Catholic priest, who asserted that iconolatry and reverence of Saints are not true Christian values (though, I have nothing against icons or saints personally). So, in this case the word "bullshit" is the only one your argument? Fun. And why you have not tried to explain to me your own position even, instead of attacking me. It would be much more interesting, besides I am always ready to listen to another's opinion and even to agree with enough well-founded. So, come on! You can try to deny words from the Bible or words of that Catholic priest, if you can... or want :p

But I really consider, that many (many, not all) so-called Christians are more worried to LOOK like Christians, instead of to BE them. I think it's hypocrisy. And how it can be named, if many "Christians" have never read the Bible? :confused:

I do not pretend to be a commited Christian, but I have enough sense of tact, respect for other people and civility to not write, that other people's opinion is a full "bull-shit".

I would like to add only, that problem is in people indeed, not in Christianity...

[Talvi]

Talvi made the claim that rebirth is ubiquitously pagan, but what she meant by rebirth, I do not know. I presume she meant some sort of soul rebirth within another body.


I suppose I meant that. Although it is possible for the soul to exist elsewhere in some "other world" without a body, too..

Although isnt it burning the dead considered one of the first types of ..way to get rid of the corpses.. burial traditions? Because people were most likely scared that the dead will rise.. and they sure werent Christan back then.

And now Im confused... what happens to someone who goes to heaven in Christian context. What goes to heaven? Just your soul? Does the soul get a new body in Heaven?

[Brizio]

The Noah's Ark story is similar to the Gilgamesh Epic myth. How can anyone even believe anything in the bible is real?

[Lucretius]

Roman Christianity is essentially another mystery religion like the mystery religions of the Hellenistic period. Unfortunately, it is the least interesting, and worse still, the least tolerant. I would be completely satisfied had a religion like Mithraism, or Sol Invictus/Emperor Worship became the official State Religion of the Empire, and so the dominant religion of the western world. You can be sure that had this taken place, the other religions/cults (Cybele, Isis, Dea Syria, Odin, Thor, Slavic deities etc.) including Christianity would still be around, incorporated into the imperial cult perhaps, but tolerated nonetheless.

I totally agree with you,the fact is that the vile emperor Constantine converted himself to Christianity only for political benefits,the litte sect became very powerful in the first centuries AD and a new faith who gave salvation and hope to all was a great change for that period. The big difference within Christianity and others hellenistic religions was the big intolerance to the other gods and a fanatism unseen before in Europe. I think that Saint Paul and Constantine were the real inventors of Christianity,Jesus,if ever existed,was one of the many gurus of the middle coming from the east. Modern Christianity is coming back to his original roots (bolscevism of antiquity-Spengler)

[Apollonaris]

The 'saints' basically take the role of the lesser gods, and the easter and christmas celebrations were basically appropriated wholesale from Christian sources

Many of the saints were originally the pagan gods who were appropriated by the Church and Christianized. I think you meant that Easter and Christmas "were basically appropriated wholesale from pagan sources." If that's the case, then I agree with you.

[Argyll]

There's quite a bit. Especially with the saints.

[Saturni]

From the Germanic peoples,
The Yule tree
Baptismal waters
Crossing oneself

From the Egyptians
The Madonna and Child imagery

From the Greeks
Platonism and Stoicism

Xtianity is, essentially, a totally borrowed religion. It has no real doctrines of its own other than that of perpetual revolt against Master Moralities.

[Argyll]

The majority of the holidays are Celtic, Celtic saints are Saint Brighid (goddess) and another well known one that is Cernunnos, though I can't remember his name. There's even a Celtic Christian denomonation.

[Saturni]

The majority of the holidays are Celtic, Celtic saints are Saint Brighid (goddess) and another well known one that is Cernunnos, though I can't remember his name. There's even a Celtic Christian denomonation.

Xmas was stolen from the Mithas Cult

Easter from the Germanic holiday Ostara

And the best of the bunch, Halloween from the Celtic holiday Samhain

[Argyll]

Xmas was stolen from the Mithas Cult

Easter from the Germanic holiday Ostara

And the best of the bunch, Halloween from the Celtic holiday Samhain

We can debate a little on the easter one, though ;) I forgot it's Celtic name, but Easter itself may have drawn on both holidays. Valentine's day, which is a christian flavoured holiday, is actually Celtic too. I also forgot it's name, but the Celts would drive their cattle through great bonfires on this day and lovers would leap across the flames, and so on. Samuin is the BEST holiday :D There's also a Celtic holiday around the winter times too.

[SilverKnight]

Winter solstice celebration, turned into Christmas day .
So on this day I celebrate the longest night of the year rather than a fairy tail story :D

[Saturni]

Dying Gods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_god

Note that out of all the cults of dying gods mentioned, the Jesus/Xtian cult is the newest of the bunch. Seems the beadmumblers just can't muster a single original idea to save their lives. :D

[Argyll]

Dying Gods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dying_god

Note that out of all the cults of dying gods mentioned, the Jesus/Xtian cult is the newest of the bunch. Seems the beadmumblers just can't muster a single original idea to save their lives. :D

Dying gods?

[Jägerstaffel]

Dying gods?

Think resurrection.

[Sturmgewehr]

A lot of Pagan ideas can be found on Christianity, like Jesus was born in the same date with many other pagan gods like Kreshna, Osiris and so many others which also lived 3 years and were crucified and Resurrected and so on and on.

[askra]

Christmas is the christian name for the pagan feast of winter solstice.

[Saturni]

Christmas is the christian name for the pagan feast of winter solstice.

The Yule.

[Óttar]

A lot of Pagan ideas can be found on Christianity, like Jesus was born in the same date with many other pagan gods like Kreshna, Osiris and so many others which also lived 3 years and were crucified and Resurrected and so on and on.
__________________

Krishna crucified? In which text? Osiris crucified? Osiris was tricked and trapped into a treasure chest, dismembered and thrown into the Mediterranean.

This is where the Christers will attempt to prove 'pagan influence' scholars wrong, or show that their reasoning is fallacious. The birthday of Krishna is not celebrated on Dec. 25th. Indians use a rolling calendar and so oftentimes the birth of Krishna is celebrated a few months away from December. The reasoning behind the holiday is pretty much the same, it has to do with the position of the sun, but if researchers don't point certain details out, then the Christers will pounce on inaccuracies. It must be pointed out that, every dying and resurrecting god does not follow the Jesus story exactly, like films like Zeitgeist try to claim.

[Saturni]

December 25: The Birthday of the Iranian God, Mithra and Jesus of Nazareth
by Siamak Adhami, Ph.D.
http://www.mazdapublisher.com/Documents/Mithra%20&%20Jesus%20of%20Nazareth.pdf

MITHRAS = CHRISTIANITY?
http://jdstone.org/cr/files/mithraschristianity.html

[Mercury]

The original Mosaic faith could possibly find it's roots in an Egyptian cult known as Atenism. Starting out as a henotheistic religion, it is suggested by experts to have evolved into a primitive, early form of monotheism. Biblical records of the ancient Hebrew people obviously put them at the right place, and right time to receive this divine message from Egyptian pagans. An alleged connection with this henotheistic cult is especially interesting to me; I know of a Mormon archaeologist that has done a lot of research on ancient Israel and makes a similar claim. Apparently the Mormon faith promotes a form of henotheism (Eternal progression) and it's believed by the LDS this was common knowledge to the Hebrew people. Very interesting indeed.

Akhenaten and Judeo-Christian monotheism

The idea of Akhenaten as the pioneer of a monotheistic religion that later became Judaism has been considered by various scholars.[53][54][55][56][57][58] One of the first to mention this was Sigmund Freud, the founder of psychoanalysis, in his book Moses and Monotheism.[59] Freud argued that Moses had been an Atenist priest forced to leave Egypt with his followers after Akhenaten's death. Freud argued that Akhenaten was striving to promote monotheism, something that the biblical Moses was able to achieve.[53] Following his book, the concept entered popular consciousness and serious research.

Other scholars and mainstream Egyptologists point out that there are direct connections between early Judaism and other Semitic religious traditions.[60] They also state that two of the three principal Judaic terms for God, Yahweh, Elohim (morphologically plural), and Adonai (meaning "our lord", also morphologically plural) have a connection to Aten. Freud commented on the connection between Adonai, the Egyptian Aten and the Syrian divine name of Adonis as a primeval unity of language between the factions;[53] in this he was following the argument of Egyptologist Arthur Weigall. Jan Assmann's opinion is that 'Aten' and 'Adonai' are not linguistically related.[61]

Akhenaten appears in history almost two centuries prior to the first archaeological and written evidence for Judaism and Israelite culture is found in the Levant. Abundant visual imagery of the Aten disk was central to Atenism, which celebrated the natural world, while such imagery is not a feature of early Israelite culture.[62] However, pottery found throughout Judea dated to the end of the 8th century BC has seals resembling a winged sun disk burned on their handles. These are argued to be the royal seal of the Judean Kingdom.[63]

Uffington[64] supports the view of the origin of Judaism, but also points out a Celtic link through the symbols. The Aten sun disc is frequently represented with its long rays ending in human hands. This symbol was also a representation of the Celtic Sun God Lugh.

Ahmed Osman has claimed that Akhenaten's maternal grandfather Yuya was the same person as the Biblical Joseph. Yuya held the title "Overseer of the Cattle of Min at Akhmin" during his life.[65]

He likely belonged to the local nobility of Akhmim. Egyptologists hold this view because Yuya had strong connections to the city of Akhmim in Upper Egypt. This makes it unlikely that he was a foreigner since most Asiatic settlers tended to cloister around the Nile Delta region of Lower Egypt.[66][67] Some Egyptologists,[68] however, give him a Mitannian origin. It is widely accepted that there are strong similarities between Akhenaten's Great Hymn to the Aten and the Biblical Psalm 104, though this form is found widespread in ancient Near Eastern hymnology both before and after the period[citation needed] and whether this implies a direct influence or a common literary convention remains in dispute.

Others have likened some aspects of Akhenaten's relationship with the Aten to the relationship, in Christian tradition, of Jesus Christ with God - particularly in interpretations that emphasise a more monotheistic interpretation of Atenism than henotheistic. Donald B. Redford has noted that some have viewed Akhenaten as a harbinger of Jesus. "After all, Akhenaten did call himself the son of the sole god: 'Thine only son that came forth from thy body'."[69] James Henry Breasted likened him to Jesus,[70] Arthur Weigall saw him as a failed precursor of Christ and Thomas Mann saw him "as right on the way and yet not the right one for the way".[71]

Redford argued that while Akhenaten called himself the son of the Sun-Disc and acted as the chief mediator between god and creation, kings for thousands of years before Akhenaten's time had claimed the same relationship and priestly role. However Akhenaton's case may be different through the emphasis placed on the heavenly father and son relationship. Akhenaten described himself as "thy son who came forth from thy limbs", "thy child", "the eternal son that came forth from the Sun-Disc", and "thine only son that came forth from thy body". The close relationship between father and son is such that only the king truly knows the heart of "his father", and in return his father listens to his son's prayers. He is his father's image on earth and as Akhenaten is king on earth his father is king in heaven. As high priest, prophet, king and divine he claimed the central position in the new religious system. Since only he knew his father's mind and will, Akhenaten alone could interpret that will for all mankind with true teaching coming only from him.[69]

Redford concluded:

Before much of the archaeological evidence from Thebes and from Tell el-Amarna became available, wishful thinking sometimes turned Akhenaten into a humane teacher of the true God, a mentor of Moses, a Christlike figure, a philosopher before his time. But these imaginary creatures are now fading away one by one as the historical reality gradually emerges. There is little or no evidence to support the notion that Akhenaten was a progenitor of the full-blown monotheism that we find in the Bible. The monotheism of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament had its own separate development—one that began more than half a millenium after the pharaoh's death.[72]

However, Greenberg argues that Judaism shows signs that in its early forms it had Henotheistic characteristics and that it later was refined into a monotheism around the time of King Josiah, relegating that which previously were considered gods, into gods that ought not be worshipped, i.e. angels.[73]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten

Make up your own mind.

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Here's an interesting e-book I just stumbled across: http://books.google.com/books?id=6YWEAR1lNEwC&pg=PR9&lpg=PR9&dq=backyard+professor+monotheism&source=bl&ots=snHMopgCoz&sig=9e4WQec40KknJBECRLyE0o4My5M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=QIg8T4z6AaLG0QGmnfzrBw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false


It is true the Jesus birth story is unique. Even thought there were numerous other virgin and miraculous births that predate him. But isn't it remotely possible that early Christians were somewhat influenced by this myth to promote Jesus' divinity?