Euro-criteria for founder-settler countries

[Fred]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=133899&postcount=17

What countries of the New World would you state that are legitimate scions of their European parents to this day? At which point do they lose ecumenical ties and are cast aside as completely foreign? When the controlling colonising country withdraws its occupying population, or even if they stay, but the leadership remains in the hands of the creoles? If the parent country disowns their child, because the child has become feisty, is that legitimate for saying that the child is no longer of the parents' family? What kind of outlook would that be for space colonisation? Would it help or hurt? What about devolved institutions such as the Commonwealth, or Denmark's relations with the Faroe Islands and Greenland? :coffee:

[Xabukaz]

What countries of the New World would you state that are legitimate scions of their European parents to this day?

None. The United States is made up of English, Germans, Irish and Swedes. We are not scions of anyone European nation exclusively. Argentine is derived from Spaniards and Italians with an assortment of other Europeans. Canada has the French and the English, Scots and Irish along with other Europeans. The new nations are still evolving as are their parents. They are more like cousins who share a common ancestry. The settlers of Quebec came from a France that is very different from the one that exist at present.

At which point do they lose ecumenical ties and are cast aside as completely foreign?

At the point when they declared their independence. Or in the case of Quebec abandoned by the mother country.

[Fred]

I meant which are still European enough to be recognised as such, not necessarily which kind of European.

[Cato]

I meant which are still European enough to be recognised as such, not necessarily which kind of European.

Recognized by whom? Why do European-descended new worlders need to be recognized as such? :confused:

[Fred]

There are Eurocentrics here who hate America, for instance. I only aimed to get a general figure for which countries outside of the Continent would they admire or accept, although I won't necessarily hold myself to their positions. Of course, Eurocolonials are just as free to assess which countries of the New World, or even the Old, exterior to Europe the Continent, are not incompatible to Europe.

[Westfalen]

None. The United States is made up of English, Germans, Irish and Swedes.


Don't you forget a large part of the origin of the U.S.A.? I mean the country that hired Henry Hudson, bought Manhattan (Peter Stuyvesant) founded New York and many other cities. Origin of the biggest part of Michigan's population.
It is said that about 10% of the U.S.-blood is Dutch.
Even have had their own state/colony "Nieuw Nederland" covering the following cities 1609:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8b/Nieuw_Nederland.png/250px-Nieuw_Nederland.png

What countries of the New World would you state that are legitimate scions of their European parents to this day?

New-Zealand, (yes that's named after Dutch province Zeeland by Dutchman Abel Tasman, yes also Tasmania was named after him)
and Australia are both very British. Off course there are many people from other countries, but they are mostly British, so true scions of Great Britain.

Suriname (Dutch Guyana) and Dutch Antilles speak mostly Dutch even though Suriname is independent, but filled with negroes.

[Cato]

There are Eurocentrics here who hate America, for instance. I only aimed to get a general figure for which countries outside of the Continent would they admire or accept, although I won't necessarily hold myself to their positions. Of course, Eurocolonials are just as free to assess which countries of the New World, or even the Old, exterior to Europe the Continent, are not incompatible to Europe.

Such people can pucker up and prepare to kiss my Wookie-like backside because I'm not going anywhere. :):D

[Mesrine]

What countries of the New World would you state that are legitimate scions of their European parents to this day?

None. Assume yourself, you're adult now.

[Fred]

None. Assume yourself, you're adult now.I assume therefore, that you don't care to vet opinions other than your own?:tongue

[SwordoftheVistula]

What countries of the New World would you state that are legitimate scions of their European parents to this day?

Australia, Canada, Iceland, New Zealand, United States



At which point do they lose ecumenical ties and are cast aside as completely foreign?

When the controlling mechanisms are turned over fully to non-Europeans beyond forseeable return, in most cases meaning a nonwhite voting majority. For example South Africa and Rhodesia turning over control by giving blacks the vote.



the leadership remains in the hands of the creoles?

This is not determinitive in the cases where the creoles can be voted out. For example, France and the US currently have non-European Presidents, but this could easily change in the next election. Rhodesia and South Africa, on the other hand, appear to be under African control for the forseeable future, to say nothing of countries like India and Kenya which never had more than a miniscule European population.



There are Eurocentrics here who hate America, for instance. I only aimed to get a general figure for which countries outside of the Continent would they admire or accept

Oh, those people? Only when we start riding mopeds and city busses, wearing track suits, beating eachother to death over soccer games, and living on unemployment benefits in government run housing complexes

[Kadu]

Australia, Canada, Iceland, New Zealand, United States



I think you mean Greenland.

[SwordoftheVistula]

I think you mean Greenland.

Does anyone even live there? Maybe some stray Eskimos and scientific reseachers

[Kadu]

Does anyone even live there? Maybe some stray Eskimos and scientific reseachers

Yes i agree with you, but Iceland is in Europe.

[Lahtari]

I meant which are still European enough to be recognised as such, not necessarily which kind of European.

The former European colonies that still have societies that are factually European in nature - run by European descendants in a culture that is essentially of European origin. And with this I don't mean the surface or minor details, like the dominant political ideology, having a member of minority working as the head of state (unless he becomes a dictator) or prefering american football or rugby over soccer (properly known as football ;)), but the deep structures, like how people interact with each other, work, do business, group together and form their organizations, their basic values, distribution of knowledge, academic traditions, etc. Practically this requires a majority of European descendants, unless the society is being dominated by them by other means (f.ex. apartheid-era South Africa). Having a troublesome, hard-to-assimilate minority living more or less as a parallel society or a small number of assimilated aliens does not exclude such a society to be classed as European, in my opinion.

Naturally you could find tons of differences among these aspects between the New and the Old Worlds, but you'd surely find much more when comparing the eastern and western sides of the Iron Curtain during the Cold War.

So, according to my limited knowledge about other continents (:icon_redface:), such societies would be:

The US of America - filling up with Mexicans, but so far they remain largely as underclass.
Canada - lots of immigrants doing the dirty work too, but unquestionably European.
Argentina - Amazingly, among the countries with the highest percentages of European population. For some mysterical reason they're the only South American country with a space program..
Australia and New Zealand - So far as I know the same usualy stuff as in other "Western" (LOL! :D) countries: heavy intake of immigrants but still the old structures prevailing (and slowly but steadily, rotting. :().

I'm possibly forgetting some smaller ones, and am generally ignorant about South America (but so far as I understand it's basically full of Injuns).

[Lahtari]

Yes i agree with you, but Iceland is in Europe.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Iceland_Mid-Atlantic_Ridge_Fig16.gif

Geographically it's a close call, but since it was colonized by Europeans in the Middle Ages (at the latest), having an uniformly Scandinavian culture since then, I'd definitely call it an Old World country.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Mid-atlantic_ridge_map.png

(Hmm.. maybe this should be posted into the Atlantis thread. ;))

[Fred]

Australia, Canada, Iceland, New Zealand, United States




When the controlling mechanisms are turned over fully to non-Europeans beyond forseeable return, in most cases meaning a nonwhite voting majority. For example South Africa and Rhodesia turning over control by giving blacks the vote.




This is not determinitive in the cases where the creoles can be voted out. For example, France and the US currently have non-European Presidents, but this could easily change in the next election. Rhodesia and South Africa, on the other hand, appear to be under African control for the forseeable future, to say nothing of countries like India and Kenya which never had more than a miniscule European population.




Oh, those people? Only when we start riding mopeds and city busses, wearing track suits, beating eachother to death over soccer games, and living on unemployment benefits in government run housing complexesYou have a good analytical mind. May it never fail you.;)


I think you mean Greenland.More likely, although not his intent.


Does anyone even live there? Maybe some stray Eskimos and scientific reseachersLMAO


Yes i agree with you, but Iceland is in Europe.I agree that it is Old World because the Greeks knew of it.


The former European colonies that still have societies that are factually European in nature - run by European descendants in a culture that is essentially of European origin. And with this I don't mean the surface or minor details, like the dominant political ideology, having a member of minority working as the head of state (unless he becomes a dictator) or prefering american football or rugby over soccer (properly known as football ;)), but the deep structures, like how people interact with each other, work, do business, group together and form their organizations, their basic values, distribution of knowledge, academic traditions, etc. Practically this requires a majority of European descendants, unless the society is being dominated by them by other means (f.ex. apartheid-era South Africa). Having a troublesome, hard-to-assimilate minority living more or less as a parallel society or a small number of assimilated aliens does not exclude such a society to be classed as European, in my opinion.

Naturally you could find tons of differences among these aspects between the New and the Old Worlds, but you'd surely find much more when comparing the eastern and western sides of the Iron Curtain during the Cold War.

So, according to my limited knowledge about other continents (:icon_redface:), such societies would be:

The US of America - filling up with Mexicans, but so far they remain largely as underclass.
Canada - lots of immigrants doing the dirty work too, but unquestionably European.
Argentina - Amazingly, among the countries with the highest percentages of European population. For some mysterical reason they're the only South American country with a space program..
Australia and New Zealand - So far as I know the same usualy stuff as in other "Western" (LOL! :D) countries: heavy intake of immigrants but still the old structures prevailing (and slowly but steadily, rotting. :().

I'm possibly forgetting some smaller ones, and am generally ignorant about South America (but so far as I understand it's basically full of Injuns).Yes, "Latin" America is a curious set of polities.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Iceland_Mid-Atlantic_Ridge_Fig16.gif

Geographically it's a close call, but since it was colonized by Europeans in the Middle Ages (at the latest), having an uniformly Scandinavian culture since then, I'd definitely call it an Old World country.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Mid-atlantic_ridge_map.png

(Hmm.. maybe this should be posted into the Atlantis thread. ;))Greenland and Canada were also, but both were colonised by Christians, but Iceland may have a pre-Christian history, so to me, it is definitely more local, when understanding expansion relative to other phenomena.