North Italians have same haplogroups as South Germans...

[JQP4545]

According to eupedia (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml) North Italians and Southern Germans have essentially the same frequencies of haplogroups. Southern Germany is closer to Italy than to Northern Germany in this respect.

Yet there is no overlap between them when it comes to the genetic map of Europe: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/08/13/science/figure1a_600.jpg

Why is this? Shouldn't Southern Germans cluster with Northern Italians?

[Fire Haired]

There are some obvious differences though. Eupedia Y DNA tables only show major and very old haplogroups. It depends on what subclades they have to say there is a lot of common paternal ancestry. South Germans and northern Italians are not very similar genetically. Autosomal DNA is what proves this. Autosomal DNA takes genes from all lines not just direct paternal line like Y DNA does. Here are some autosomal DNA tests spreadsheets so you can compare many people around the world globe13 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2), K7b (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR 2c), K12b (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE). Honestly I know very little about the science behind these tests.

Both north Italians and south Germans are about 100% west Eurasian. All Europeans, west Asians, and north Africans are mainly under related west Eurasian groups. West Eurasian family found in autosomal DNA is very constant with what biologist have called the Caucasian race based on physical features since the 1800's. South Asians are probably loosely related like way back when which is why they also have many Caucasian features.

Click here (http://bga101.blogspot.com/2013/10/eurogenes-k15-now-at-gedmatch.html) to see an article about another autosomal DNA test from Eurogenes ancestry project. It has gradient maps of all the west Eurasian groups. The groups distributions are very constant with what other tests have found. Same with its Fst's(globe13 Fst's (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=3)). I don't really understand what they are but what I do know is the smaller the number the more related.


Click here (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2013/09/more-on-east-baltic-as-refuge-for.html) for a good article from Eurogenes about Autosomal DNA descended from Mesolithic European hunter gatherers and Neolithic farmers. A lot has already been discovered(it is still only hypothesis though) about the origin of European autosomal DNA mainly because of autosomal DNA from pre historic European hunter gatherers and farmers. What is usually called north European descends mainly from pre Neolithic hunter gatherers of Europe who may descend from people who lived in Europe over 30,000ybp, what is usually called Meditreaen descends from Neolithic farmers of Europe who arrived from the Near east ~9,000ybp, what is usually called west Asian and southwest Asian mainly came in the Neolithic while some may have come later, east Asian groups in northeast Europe probably came in Mesolithic with Y DNA N1c1, north African and sub Saharan Africa groups in Iberia and other areas of Europe who knows when it came.

Italians(including north Italians) have much less of the north European components and more Meditreaen and middle eastern groups than Germans(including south Germans). There is almost as much middle eastern ancestry in Italy as in European Jews.

[Toscano]

Because of the Alp mountains. The Italic population have been a bit more isolated then For exampel Germany. And the diffrence between North And South Germany is bigger genetic than its of North And South Italy.

I know all you Nordicist wanna describe us Italians as dirty Middle-eastern. But we are in fact mostly a "indo"European and Neolithic farmer population with low admixture from Arab conquest in South italy. Most Southern Italians are ancestors of Greeks by the way.

The Germanic influence in North italy is lower than it is in Sicily for example.

But Italic people was/are close related to Germanic people in the first place.

Sorry for my English.

[Ouistreham]

According to eupedia...

If it's on Eupedia, it must be crap.

[Smaug]

Yes I've noticed that too. Not surprising.

[Insuperable]

According to eupedia (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml) North Italians and Southern Germans have essentially the same frequencies of haplogroups. Southern Germany is closer to Italy than to Northern Germany in this respect.

Yet there is no overlap between them when it comes to the genetic map of Europe: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/08/13/science/figure1a_600.jpg

Why is this? Shouldn't Southern Germans cluster with Northern Italians?

Yes, but what about mtdna?

[Prince Carlo]

North Italian y-dna is more similar to the Iberian one if anything. Germany is quite far with all that R1a, I1, I2b, etc...

[MelinusMargos]

Because of the Alp mountains. The Italic population have been a bit more isolated then For exampel Germany. And the diffrence between North And South Germany is bigger genetic than its of North And South Italy.

I know all you Nordicist wanna describe us Italians as dirty Middle-eastern. But we are in fact mostly a "indo"European and Neolithic farmer population with low admixture from Arab conquest in South italy. Most Southern Italians are ancestors of Greeks by the way.

The Germanic influence in North italy is lower than it is in Sicily for example.

But Italic people was/are close related to Germanic people in the first place.

Sorry for my English.

1. The alps were never a real division, actually northern italy was a common travel place for many peoples from abroad, even in the middle ages northern italy was highly populated by occitans, and to a lesser extent by germans and other europeans(it was a common settling place before going to the crusades, proven by town founded by scots for example), the alps are not really an impossible obstacle, why should south tyroleans speak german? aren't they on the southern side of the alps? Many things in the local languages of northern italy clearly suggest noticeable germanic, french and occitan influence as well as some minor spanish influence. It may surprise you that lombard/piedmontese grammar is the most similiar to the oil languages grammar in romance languages. It may surprise you the use of upper frontal rounded wovels, neutral nouns, absence of terminal wovels in words, asexuated plurals... clearly of external germanic influence, a lot of transalpine things actually.

2. Come on, don't be ridicolous. Let's see if you can support this with anthropologic, genetic, linguistic, traditional, alimentary data.

[MelinusMargos]

According to eupedia (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml) North Italians and Southern Germans have essentially the same frequencies of haplogroups. Southern Germany is closer to Italy than to Northern Germany in this respect.

Yet there is no overlap between them when it comes to the genetic map of Europe: http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/08/13/science/figure1a_600.jpg

Why is this? Shouldn't Southern Germans cluster with Northern Italians?

Those italian samples are both from central italy.

[jmls]

Because of the Alp mountains. The Italic population have been a bit more isolated then For exampel Germany. And the diffrence between North And South Germany is bigger genetic than its of North And South Italy.

I know all you Nordicist wanna describe us Italians as dirty Middle-eastern. But we are in fact mostly a "indo"European and Neolithic farmer population with low admixture from Arab conquest in South italy. Most Southern Italians are ancestors of Greeks by the way.

The Germanic influence in North italy is lower than it is in Sicily for example.

But Italic people was/are close related to Germanic people in the first place.

Sorry for my English.

You have been well trained in the darkside by objectiverealist.

[MelinusMargos]

There are some obvious differences though. Eupedia Y DNA tables only show major and very old haplogroups. It depends on what subclades they have to say there is a lot of common paternal ancestry. South Germans and northern Italians are not very similar genetically. Autosomal DNA is what proves this. Autosomal DNA takes genes from all lines not just direct paternal line like Y DNA does. Here are some autosomal DNA tests spreadsheets so you can compare many people around the world globe13 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=2), K7b (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadHZ6SHpiLTNTa3lsUmZJY2pQblVRR 2c), K12b (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedEY4Y3lTUVBaaFp0bC1zZlBDcTZEY lE). Honestly I know very little about the science behind these tests.

Both north Italians and south Germans are about 100% west Eurasian. All Europeans, west Asians, and north Africans are mainly under related west Eurasian groups. West Eurasian family found in autosomal DNA is very constant with what biologist have called the Caucasian race based on physical features since the 1800's. South Asians are probably loosely related like way back when which is why they also have many Caucasian features.

Click here (http://bga101.blogspot.com/2013/10/eurogenes-k15-now-at-gedmatch.html) to see an article about another autosomal DNA test from Eurogenes ancestry project. It has gradient maps of all the west Eurasian groups. The groups distributions are very constant with what other tests have found. Same with its Fst's(globe13 Fst's (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=3)). I don't really understand what they are but what I do know is the smaller the number the more related.


Click here (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2013/09/more-on-east-baltic-as-refuge-for.html) for a good article from Eurogenes about Autosomal DNA descended from Mesolithic European hunter gatherers and Neolithic farmers. A lot has already been discovered(it is still only hypothesis though) about the origin of European autosomal DNA mainly because of autosomal DNA from pre historic European hunter gatherers and farmers. What is usually called north European descends mainly from pre Neolithic hunter gatherers of Europe who may descend from people who lived in Europe over 30,000ybp, what is usually called Meditreaen descends from Neolithic farmers of Europe who arrived from the Near east ~9,000ybp, what is usually called west Asian and southwest Asian mainly came in the Neolithic while some may have come later, east Asian groups in northeast Europe probably came in Mesolithic with Y DNA N1c1, north African and sub Saharan Africa groups in Iberia and other areas of Europe who knows when it came.

Italians(including north Italians) have much less of the north European components and more Meditreaen and middle eastern groups than Germans(including south Germans). There is almost as much middle eastern ancestry in Italy as in European Jews.


What a nonsense, we all come from the ME at least partially. More neolithic =/= more MENA. Anyway north Italians have nothing to do with jews genetically. The only relation they have with Italy is that they have high southern italian admixture. Mediterranean and north european components? that's only a bunch of genes common for northern europeans and mediterraneans, I personally think that It's related to Paleolithic and neolithic contribution rather than north/south, not surprising that Finland which is very paleo-mesolitic (and not surprisingly very CM looking) scores extremely north. No way genetics can define what's medierranean or north european. Autosomal DNA is important too, it's just a little fraction of the whole genetics, there are many more chromosomes to investigate. Genetics are as much as bullshit as physical antrhopology. to be taken with a pinch of salt. Very subjected to personal interpretation.

[Gaita]

North Italian y-dna is more similar to the Iberian one if anything. Germany is quite far with all that R1a, I1, I2b, etc...

Wow....finally you say something that makes sense. :thumb001:

To your point, look my y-DNA is I2b1....but, that means nothing except the first male in my paternal line was probably Germanic, because my autosomal DNA is what maters, and it encompasses all my ancestors not just one.

[Lábaru]

2. Come on, don't be ridicolous. Let's see if you can support this with anthropologic, genetic, linguistic, traditional, alimentary data.

Now you are interested in genetic? is time for accept that Andalusian are more Northern/Germanic than North Italian? or genetics only works with the Sicilians? xD

[MelinusMargos]

Now you are interested in genetic? is time for accept that Andalusian are more Northern/Germanic than North Italian? or genetics only works with the Sicilians? xD

Genetics aren't all about autosomal crap, also about diseases probability, haplogroups, codified proteins, etc... a lot of things. In most medical genetic researches northern italians have similiar results to south germans and french people.

[Lábaru]

Genetics aren't all about autosomal crap.

Ahhhh I see!! autosomal crap hahahaahahaha now I understand, genetics is only true with the Sicilians vs North Italians, when the comparison is North Italy vs Spain that is crap hahahahahahahahahahaahahahahaahahaahaha
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8211/8437291103_92212c88bf_o.png

[Gaijin]

1. The alps were never a real division...

The Alps have always been a natural reserve, that isolated Italians from the rest of other Europeans.
As this article states:

"The map also identifies the existence of two genetic barriers within Europe... ...The other is between Italians and the rest. This may reflect the role of the Alps in impeding free flow of people between Italy and the rest of Europe ."
- The Genetic Map of Europe (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html?_r=0)

[Toscano]

1. The alps were never a real division, actually northern italy was a common travel place for many peoples from abroad, even in the middle ages northern italy was highly populated by occitans, and to a lesser extent by germans and other europeans(it was a common settling place before going to the crusades, proven by town founded by scots for example), the alps are not really an impossible obstacle, why should south tyroleans speak german? aren't they on the southern side of the alps? Many things in the local languages of northern italy clearly suggest noticeable germanic, french and occitan influence as well as some minor spanish influence. It may surprise you that lombard/piedmontese grammar is the most similiar to the oil languages grammar in romance languages. It may surprise you the use of upper frontal rounded wovels, neutral nouns, absence of terminal wovels in words, asexuated plurals... clearly of external germanic influence, a lot of transalpine things actually.

2. Come on, don't be ridicolous. Let's see if you can support this with anthropologic, genetic, linguistic, traditional, alimentary data.


I guess you like the idéa of Padania? Don't be silly kid. The genetic diffrence between North Italy and Germany is big. Just becuse we europeans all share same ancestors dosent make you bergamasci germanic.

Italy is Italic and Germany Germanic. Thats the truth. In Bolzano some people speak german. Thats right. But thats becuse of later immigration.

My father is from Tuscany and have very light featuters. Does that make him Germanic?

And if you check haplogroups you will see that some in Sicly def have Viking or outer Germanic Ansestors. They are a blend of mediteranians, Italics and Greeks mostly. Dont hate on South Italy kid.

[MelinusMargos]

The Alps have always been a natural reserve, that isolated Italians from the rest of other Europeans.
As this article states:

"The map also identifies the existence of two genetic barriers within Europe... ...The other is between Italians (yellow, bottom center) and the rest. This may reflect the role of the Alps in impeding free flow of people between Italy and the rest of Europe ."
- The Genetic Map of Europe (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html?_r=0)

Funny how you complain with your usual 2-3 maps taken from eupedia or the Nytimes. Good sources. Grats :thumb001:

[Toscano]

You have been well trained in the darkside by objectiverealist.

You funny or what. You believe that North Italian are some superiore Germans who speak italian? Learn the history sir.

[Toscano]

Funny how you complain with your usual 2-3 maps taken from eupedia or the Nytimes. Good sources. Grats :thumb001:

On that I agree with you. Nice sources. Funny how people try to put Italians in MENA ZONE.

[Lábaru]

Genetics aren't all about autosomal crap, also about diseases probability, haplogroups, codified proteins, etc... a lot of things. In most medical genetic researches northern italians have similiar results to south germans and french people.

hahAHAhhahahAHaha I thought the cherry picked photos were the saddest and most pathetic thing you could see on a forum when the Southern Europeans try to convince others that they are Germanic but I admit, you've exceeded all expectations HahahahAhaHahahahaHa

"yes, North Italian autosomal genepool is further south than the Andalusian but North Italan share with German a high probability of multiple sclerosis"

[Gaijin]

Funny how you complain with your usual 2-3 maps taken from eupedia or the Nytimes. Good sources. Grats :thumb001:

Eupedia?
That has nothing to do with Eupedia.

That article is originally from "Current Biology", conducted by by Dr. Manfred Kayser and Dr. Oscar Lao at the Erasmus University Medical Center in the Netherlands.

[Anthropologique]

Wow....finally you say something that makes sense. :thumb001:

To your point, look my y-DNA is I2b1....but, that means nothing except the first male in my paternal line was probably Germanic, because my autosomal DNA is what maters, and it encompasses all my ancestors not just one.

LMAO!! Yeah, my original paternal ancestor came from Gotterland. The place doesn't even exist anymore - Ice Age loss. Haplogroup frequencies count for ~ 1 - 2% of one's genetic heritage.

[Anthropologique]

hahAHAhhahahAHaha I thought the cherry picked photos were the saddest and most pathetic thing you could see on a forum when the Southern Europeans try to convince others that they are Germanic but I admit, you've exceeded all expectations HahahahAhaHahahahaHa

"yes, North Italian autosomal genepool is further south than the Andalusian but North Italan share with German a high probability of multiple sclerosis"

The imbecile Melinus strikes again. LMAO!!

[Insuperable]

Those italian samples are both from central italy.

IT2 samples are from Marches region. IT1 samples are from all over the Italy. The IT1 area between YU and Iberia represents northern Italians.

[MelinusMargos]

I guess you like the idéa of Padania? Don't be silly kid. The genetic diffrence between North Italy and Germany is big. Just becuse we europeans all share same ancestors dosent make you bergamasci germanic.

Italy is Italic and Germany Germanic. Thats the truth. In Bolzano some people speak german. Thats right. But thats becuse of later immigration.

My father is from Tuscany and have very light featuters. Does that make him Germanic?

And if you check haplogroups you will see that some in Sicly def have Viking or outer Germanic Ansestors. They are a blend of mediteranians, Italics and Greeks mostly. Dont hate on South Italy kid.

I'm not a padanist, padania is as disgusting as Italy is.
Italy is not italic. That's a very stupid definition, Northern italy is mainly Gaulish with Italic/Venetic in the east with some germanization and ligurian, raethic and etruscan influence, antiquely part of the bell beaker culture. Central italy mainly italic and etruscan, southern italy mainly italic and hellenic. those two were of cardium pottery derivation. Sicily is mainly hellenic, with some phoenician, italic and very slight germanic. It was of hybrid cardium pottery/megalithic and bell beaker. Sardinia is a totally particular case, megalithic culture and no relevant external influence.
In bolzano EVERYONE speaks german. Later? Middle ages.
Germanicity is not about genes nor Blondism... It's about culture. Speaking of germanicity in an ethnical context is usually accepted but not appropriate. Same for semites, celts, slavs, etc... We can talk about central european group for example, that would be more appropriate, in fact northern italy is a bridge between central and southern europe.
In Sicily it's clearly a result of founder effect as populations were rather small and subject to genetic changes. If you don't think so, give tangible proof of germanization in culture, tradition, language, customs, etc...
I don't hate on southern Italy. Southern Italy and that mess called Italy hates on us, our populations are being ethnically destroyed and 40-50% of our population is of southern ancestry.

[MelinusMargos]

The imbecile Melinus strikes again. LMAO!!

Imbecille? who are you to judge my intelligence? want to see who's more intelligent?

[Lábaru]

I'm sorry, I really try to stay away from this stupid Italo-Iberian war about who is more Germanic but please do not use genetic science as a valid example of the Sicilians being more southern European than Northern Italians, ok? not after of see all Italians arguing that genetic sucks when all studies located North Italian at south of Iberia.


Just choose a few photos and that's what is valid, any Sicilian-gypsy Arabic looking and some North Italian model or celebrity that looks German but not Genetic, lightless-dark photos of ordinary people are also reliable evidence..... but please do not use the sick of Down syndrome to argue that a population have more in common with the Germans, my heart could not handle the overload of hilarity.

[Anthropologique]

I'm sorry, I really try to stay away from this stupid Italo-Iberian war about who is more Germanic but please do not use genetic science as a valid example of the Sicilians being more southern European than Northern Italians, ok? not after of see all Italians arguing that genetic sucks when all studies located North Italian at south of Iberia.


Just choose a few photos and that's what is valid, any Sicilian-gypsy Arabic looking and some North Italian model or celebrity that looks German but not Genetic, lightless-dark photos of ordinary people are also reliable evidence..... but please do not use the sick of Down syndrome to argue that a population have more in common with the Germans, my heart could not handle the overload of hilarity.

It shows you that some people are so insecure about the reality of things they just go into pathological denial.

[MelinusMargos]

hahAHAhhahahAHaha I thought the cherry picked photos were the saddest and most pathetic thing you could see on a forum when the Southern Europeans try to convince others that they are Germanic but I admit, you've exceeded all expectations HahahahAhaHahahahaHa

"yes, North Italian autosomal genepool is further south than the Andalusian but North Italan share with German a high probability of multiple sclerosis"

Did I ever post cherry picked pics. How brave from you.

[MelinusMargos]

I'm sorry, I really try to stay away from this stupid Italo-Iberian war about who is more Germanic but please do not use genetic science as a valid example of the Sicilians being more southern European than Northern Italians, ok? not after of see all Italians arguing that genetic sucks when all studies located North Italian at south of Iberia.


Just choose a few photos and that's what is valid, any Sicilian-gypsy Arabic looking and some North Italian model or celebrity that looks German but not Genetic, lightless-dark photos of ordinary people are also reliable evidence..... but please do not use the sick of Down syndrome to argue that a population have more in common with the Germans, my heart could not handle the overload of hilarity.

Ridicolous as it may sound(but only for you probably) the incidency of pathologic conditions is first of all genetic.

[bimo]

iberian logic in few words

"we don't care about pigmentation war between iberians and italians , i don't know why italians are obsessed with that , but they should accept the genetic studies we post where iberians are the most nordic people of all southern europe" :rofl:

[MelinusMargos]

iberian logic in few words

"we don't care about pigmentation war between iberians and italians , i don't know why italians are obsessed with that , but they should accept the genetic studies we post where iberians are the most nordic people of all southern europe" :rofl:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[MelinusMargos]

Anyway is this thread about iberians? They look a bit self-centered.

[Gaita]

iberian logic in few words

"we don't care about pigmentation war between iberians and italians , i don't know why italians are obsessed with that , but they should accept the genetic studies we post where iberians are the most nordic people of all southern europe" :rofl:

Agreed.....:)

[Anthropologique]

iberian logic in few words

"we don't care about pigmentation war between iberians and italians , i don't know why italians are obsessed with that , but they should accept the genetic studies we post where iberians are the most nordic people of all southern europe" :rofl:

I do care about about people messing with the facts, OK?

The genetic and stereoscopic pigmentation studies are what they are. If you don't accept them then move to the Land of Lost were you belong.

Nodic? No, North European influences are substantially higher in Iberians (> 50% on average) than other core S. Euro countries. What makes you think we are talking about Nordic places like Scandinavia.? People just throw around terms here without much thought. Seems like you are confused AND in denial.

[Gaita]

Anyway is this thread about iberians? They look a bit self-centered.

That's because we are......:thumb001:

[MelinusMargos]

The genetic and stereoscopic pigmentation studies are what they are. If you don't accept them then move to the Land of Lost were you belong.

Nodic? No, North European influences are substantially higher in Iberians (> 50% on average) than other core S. Euro countries - what makes you think we are talking about Nordic places like Scandinavia. Seems like you are confused AND in denial.

AHAHAHA stereoscopic... You don't even know that it's called spectroscopy. You are so intelligent, more than everyone on this forum.

[Anthropologique]

^^

The thread is about a nonsensical topic. Stop trying to associate N. Italians with Germans, it's stupid.

[MelinusMargos]

A stereoscope, typical instrument used to quantify skin pigmentation :rolleyes:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Tru-Vue_bakelite_viewer.jpg

[bimo]

Nodic? No, North European influences are substantially higher in Iberians (> 50% on average) than other core S. Euro countries - what makes you think we are talking about Nordic places like Scandinavia. Seems like you are confused AND in denial.

nordic western or atlantic facade ecc ecc... you know better what's my point , for my personal point you iberians can fell what you want , i am just tired to see italians represented in the wrong way here

[Lábaru]

I said I was sorry. I just cannot handle the extreme dishonesty of the words from Melinusmargos and other wannabe Germanic users about genetic, but I now leave this thread, you guys can continue trying to convince the American who opened this thread that North Italians are practically Germans of second category as demonstrated the cuisine, the weather and of course, common diseases.

A mongrel German, of second category, is superior to any South European.

[MelinusMargos]

I said I was sorry. I just cannot handle the extreme dishonesty of the words from Melinusmargos and other wannabe Germanic users about genetic, but I now leave this thread, you guys can continue trying to convince the American who opened this thread that North Italians are practically Germans of second category as demonstrated the cuisine, the weather and of course, common diseases.

Bye. As always you didn't understand nothing. Quote where I said that northern italians are Germans of second category. I've just stated that sicilians aren't more germanized than us and that we have for sure a certain affinity with our bordering countries. Nothing absurd, second category Irishman.

[Anthropologique]

nordic western or atlantic facade ecc ecc... you know better what's my point , for my personal point you iberians can fell what you want , i am just tired to see italians represented in the wrong way here

Now you know how the Iberians feel about being grossly misrepresented.

[Toscano]

nordic western or atlantic facade ecc ecc... you know better what's my point , for my personal point you iberians can fell what you want , i am just tired to see italians represented in the wrong way here


Yes. I am tired of reading this fucking shit about Spaniards being more white than italians or the otherway around. I don't give a f'ck about spaniards. They are south europeans and i couldn't care about there bad food culture etc.

I am Italian and take pride in that. We are ancestors of Romans and Greeks. We started the western Civilisation. Spread our language to big parts of southern europe. Our culture is superior. Our food is great.

Stop calling us some swarthy fucking wogs. I do still think that Italy is fucked up. BUT we will see a new day and new order in Italy and kill the damn mafia and be the people we once were.

Spaniards - Your a product of OUR culture. You speak a language that originated in Italy. You have nothing to tell us.

[Toscano]

I'm not a padanist, padania is as disgusting as Italy is.
Italy is not italic. That's a very stupid definition, Northern italy is mainly Gaulish with Italic/Venetic in the east with some germanization and ligurian, raethic and etruscan influence, antiquely part of the bell beaker culture. Central italy mainly italic and etruscan, southern italy mainly italic and hellenic. those two were of cardium pottery derivation. Sicily is mainly hellenic, with some phoenician, italic and very slight germanic. It was of hybrid cardium pottery/megalithic and bell beaker. Sardinia is a totally particular case, megalithic culture and no relevant external influence.
In bolzano EVERYONE speaks german. Later? Middle ages.
Germanicity is not about genes nor Blondism... It's about culture. Speaking of germanicity in an ethnical context is usually accepted but not appropriate. Same for semites, celts, slavs, etc... We can talk about central european group for example, that would be more appropriate, in fact northern italy is a bridge between central and southern europe.
In Sicily it's clearly a result of founder effect as populations were rather small and subject to genetic changes. If you don't think so, give tangible proof of germanization in culture, tradition, language, customs, etc...
I don't hate on southern Italy. Southern Italy and that mess called Italy hates on us, our populations are being ethnically destroyed and 40-50% of our population is of southern ancestry.

Central Italy is genetic not etruscan. Its very Italic. The diffrences between south and north aint that big like you think. Maybe Sicily and that south penisola italians have more greek input. But you try to tell me you are german in culture. Thats a sad thing to say.

Be proud over Italy. It will gain its respect soon!

[Lábaru]

Yes. I am tired of reading this fucking shit about Spaniards being more white than italians or the otherway around. I don't give a f'ck about spaniards. They are south europeans and i couldn't care about there bad food culture etc.

I am Italian and take pride in that. We are ancestors of Romans and Greeks. We started the western Civilisation. Spread our language to big parts of southern europe. Our culture is superior. Our food is great.

Stop calling us some swarthy fucking wogs. I do still think that Italy is fucked up. BUT we will see a new day and new order in Italy and kill the damn mafia and be the people we once were.

Spaniards - Your a product of OUR culture. You speak a language that originated in Italy. You have nothing to tell us.

For one time I'm going to break my word and I will return to take part in this thread because you are a new member and deserve an explanation.


The first thing you must understand is that the Spanish are the partially product of Roman culture and much more, because we conquer the world after the Roman era, it is an undeniable fact, we change the world and we evolved simultaneously, our conquistadores drew the maps that we know today.

The second thing you must accept is that here the problem is your Italian compatriots, the North spend the whole day talking about are a distinct ethnic group to Southern Italy, that are more similar to Germany than to South Italians and they use as evidence the many genetic map, ok, all well up there.


The problem comes when the maps and studies show the same maps they use for Italy, showing that northern Italy is genetically at south of Iberia, including Andalusia..... now is when begin the stormshit.....Northern Italians cannot be genetically more South European than Spaniards, is impossible of accept for the poor mind of a Italian, even of a South Italian mind. Spaniards make here without pretend an impossible thing, an union of the whole Italian territory against Celtiberian Genetic results.

All other ethnic groups in the world accept their position on the genetic map, but the Italians no, is something that simply must be wrong, Oh My God!!! the Spaniard more Northern European than us!!!! this results in Spanish obviously offended because they/we do not understand why we are special in the genetic map in the eyes of our brothers and neighbors, the Italians.


This leads to ridiculous situations, Italians saying that the Spaniards are more similar to Southern Italian than the Central or Northern Italy people, cherry picked photos and a deep Italian desire to show the Italians are more like Germany.

Spaniards felt betrayed, because we want a strong bloc of southern Europe, we are proud people, we do not feel inferior to anyone, but we recognize that Italy is very similar to us, part of our culture, and we watched in dismay as most Italians want to be a sort of mixed German, second class, before that south Europeans.


We felt betrayed

Here are some of your countrymen, they deny genetics, arguing that their culture is Germanic, and share diseases with Germany, tell me if you don't think that is sad. Germany is a great country, but... come on, some Italians need to grow a pair of balls and stop betraying the rest, a few Italians are great people, I do not even like to generalize, because basically I consider Italians like allies, that should be the right way but instead of that we feel betrayed.

[Peyrol]

Haplogrups =/= phenotype =/= cultures

It's so hard to understand?

(i didn't read any message of the discussion, btw)

[Anthropologique]

Central Italy is genetic not etruscan. Its very Italic. The diffrences between south and north aint that big like you think. Maybe Sicily and that south penisola italians have more greek input. But you try to tell me you are german in culture. Thats a sad thing to say.

Be proud over Italy. It will gain its respect soon!

I agree. There is a lot to be proud of.

[Styrian Mujo]

Because of the Alp mountains. The Italic population have been a bit more isolated then For exampel Germany. And the diffrence between North And South Germany is bigger genetic than its of North And South Italy.

I know all you Nordicist wanna describe us Italians as dirty Middle-eastern. But we are in fact mostly a "indo"European and Neolithic farmer population with low admixture from Arab conquest in South italy. Most Southern Italians are ancestors of Greeks by the way.

The Germanic influence in North italy is lower than it is in Sicily for example.

But Italic people was/are close related to Germanic people in the first place.

Sorry for my English.
Most italians are MENA as is much of south europe but more so Italy(Thanks to Roman imperialism). Italy is so mixed up it's hard to say who's neolithic,indo-european,paleo-european or MENA immigrant.

[MelinusMargos]

Central Italy is genetic not etruscan. Its very Italic. The diffrences between south and north aint that big like you think. Maybe Sicily and that south penisola italians have more greek input. But you try to tell me you are german in culture. Thats a sad thing to say.

Be proud over Italy. It will gain its respect soon!

I don't want to be in a fake 1860-made state.

[Toscano]

I don't want to be in a fake 1860-made state.

The state is older that that. Its been called Italia for more than 2000 of years. All who lived on the penisola had roman citizenship. The romans romanized the greek and italic people who all had similar culture and genetics.

[Toscano]

Most italians are MENA as is much of south europe but more so Italy(Thanks to Roman imperialism). Italy is so mixed up it's hard to say who's neolithic,indo-european,paleo-european or MENA immigrant.


Stfu kid. Learn about genetics and history. Have you been to Italy? My father for example is italian and stand 180 cm. Blue eyes and light brown nearly blond hair.

Most people think he is swedish or german. And even a dark eyed italian with dark hair - Like myself does not look like a MENAit at all. Stop your nordicism son!

[Toscano]

Lábaru

Thank you for your post. I know its fucked up who North italians claim to be apart of Southern and Central Italians. They are selfhating like Iranians who do surgery and nose jobs to look white european.

I have no hate against your people and culture. I don't even give a fuck about your nordic gotic vandal genes.

I am all about my culture and people. The thing i don't like is that we South Europeans are called negroids and Arabs because thats not true. We are true Europeans.

[Toscano]

I agree. There is a lot to be proud of.


Salute!

[Styrian Mujo]

Stfu kid. Learn about genetics and history. Have you been to Italy? My father for example is italian and stand 180 cm. Blue eyes and light brown nearly blond hair.

Most people think he is swedish or german. And even a dark eyed italian with dark hair - Like myself does not look like a MENAit at all. Stop your nordicism son!
Wrap up an Italian in Arabic rags and no one will bat an eye.

[Styrian Mujo]

bump

[Styrian Mujo]

Salute!
You cant be proud of a non-existant nation, if you think Lombards and Calabrians belong to same ethnic group than you have some weird concept of what etnicity is.

[MelinusMargos]

The state is older that that. Its been called Italia for more than 2000 of years. All who lived on the penisola had roman citizenship. The romans romanized the greek and italic people who all had similar culture and genetics.

Study before saying such things, Italia meant only the tip of calabria formally. Northern Italy was called Cisalpine Gaul in the middle ages.

[MelinusMargos]

Lábaru

Thank you for your post. I know its fucked up who North italians claim to be apart of Southern and Central Italians. They are selfhating like Iranians who do surgery and nose jobs to look white european.

I have no hate against your people and culture. I don't even give a fuck about your nordic gotic vandal genes.

I am all about my culture and people. The thing i don't like is that we South Europeans are called negroids and Arabs because thats not true. We are true Europeans.

Self hating? ahahah not really. Even not-parasiting southern italians agree about this.

[MelinusMargos]

Funny how foreigners know more about "italy" than we do. Not a new phenomenon.

[Geminus]

Haplogrups =/= phenotype =/= cultures

It's so hard to understand?

(i didn't read any message of the discussion, btw)

This.

Some guys here have problems...:rolleyes:

[Fire Haired]

Because of the Alp mountains. The Italic population have been a bit more isolated then For exampel Germany. And the diffrence between North And South Germany is bigger genetic than its of North And South Italy.

I know all you Nordicist wanna describe us Italians as dirty Middle-eastern. But we are in fact mostly a "indo"European and Neolithic farmer population with low admixture from Arab conquest in South italy. Most Southern Italians are ancestors of Greeks by the way.

The Germanic influence in North italy is lower than it is in Sicily for example.

But Italic people was/are close related to Germanic people in the first place.

Sorry for my English.

I am sure the Alps has isolated peoples in Italy at least somewhat. But it hasn't always completely isolated people in Italy. Urnfield culture brought Italic languages to Italy through the Alps ~3,200-3,000ybp and many other people's have gone to Italy through the Alps. In autosomal DNA there is a bigger difference between north Italians and south Italians than there is with Germans-Irish-Austrians-Hungarians-Swiss-British(all). In most tests groups descended(or mainly) from Mesolithic European hunter gatherers are much lower in southern Italy than northern Italy and Near eastern groups are much higher.

In northern Italy Y DNA R1b S28(most likely brought with Italic languages) is very high and it decreases the more south you go into Italy. R1b M269 types that are not R1b P312 or U106 are pretty popular in far southern Italy and Sicily probably because of Greeks. There is some obvious Germanic descended Y DNA in Italy including Sicily R1b S21, I1, I2a2a(maybe also Italic or Celtic), and most R1a. There is a page on Eupedia all about the history of Y DNA in Italy(Genetic History of Italians (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml)). The author Maciamo is an expert on history and DNA genetics' but what he says is still just hypothesis. Y DNA is just direct paternal lineages so it does not tell the full story at all.

[Atlantic Islander]

Haplogroups hardly matter, autosomal is the bees knees.

[Smeagol]

So?

[Toscano]

I am sure the Alps has isolated peoples in Italy at least somewhat. But it hasn't always completely isolated people in Italy. Urnfield culture brought Italic languages to Italy through the Alps ~3,200-3,000ybp and many other people's have gone to Italy through the Alps. In autosomal DNA there is a bigger difference between north Italians and south Italians than there is with Germans-Irish-Austrians-Hungarians-Swiss-British(all). In most tests groups descended(or mainly) from Mesolithic European hunter gatherers are much lower in southern Italy than northern Italy and Near eastern groups are much higher.

In northern Italy Y DNA R1b S28(most likely brought with Italic languages) is very high and it decreases the more south you go into Italy. R1b M269 types that are not R1b P312 or U106 are pretty popular in far southern Italy and Sicily probably because of Greeks. There is some obvious Germanic descended Y DNA in Italy including Sicily R1b S21, I1, I2a2a(maybe also Italic or Celtic), and most R1a. There is a page on Eupedia all about the history of Y DNA in Italy(Genetic History of Italians (http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml)). The author Maciamo is an expert on history and DNA genetics' but what he says is still just hypothesis. Y DNA is just direct paternal lineages so it does not tell the full story at all.


Maciamo is anti-italian and a true nordicist.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/09/a-genetic-map-of-italy/#.Uq-NGfTuLbw

[Toscano]

You cant be proud of a non-existant nation, if you think Lombards and Calabrians belong to same ethnic group than you have some weird concept of what etnicity is.


Oh lord. We share common culture and similar language. Italy is a state of peoples who today is called italians. If you for real thin Calabresi and Lombardi is like an nigger and a german your mad wrong and ignorant as fuck.

[Toscano]

Wrap up an Italian in Arabic rags and no one will bat an eye.

Some arabs are part of the europid race, fucking nordicist.

Line up an arab next to italians and we will see the difference.

[Toscano]

Self hating? ahahah not really. Even not-parasiting southern italians agree about this.


Padania dosen't exist. You are not German. Your Italic. Indo European mixed with neolithic farmers from northern Middle east and Hunters and Gathers(most relative to modern days finns). The diffrence between you and a South Italian is that you have more indo european(aryan) and Hunter and gather admixture. You still have the same components but lower West asian.
Check autosomal maps.

Scusa ma quale straniero? Do you even speak italian you german lover. Did you know how many italians were killed by Austrians in WW1? Self hater

[Fire Haired]

Maciamo is anti-italian and a true nordicist.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2012/09/a-genetic-map-of-italy/#.Uq-NGfTuLbw

What evidence do you have that Maciamo is "anti-italian and a true nordicist"? I didn't see any type of racism in his Genetic history of Italy article. If Maciamo was a "nordicist" why does he agree the dominate Y DNA haplogroup of west Europe(signature of Celts, Italics, and Germanics) which is R1b1a2a1a L11 lineage goes back to the Near east just 8,000 years ago? He argued for a very long time of a Caucasus/Near eastern origin of Indo European languages not like the mainstream kurgan Hypothesis which puts the first Indo Europeans around Ukraine and European Russia. If he was a true "nordicist" he would agree with what the Nazis said that the first Indo Europeans(used to be called Aryans) lived in northern Europe. Maciamo may have some biased but it is very hard to notice.

[Fire Haired]

Some arabs are part of the europid race, fucking nordicist.

Line up an arab next to italians and we will see the difference.

What do you mean by "europid race"? Arabs are apart of the Caucasian race which in Biology stand for all west Asians, Europeans, north Africans, and south Asians because of their skeletal shapes and other similar features. mtDNA and autosomal DNA have pretty much found the same thing but call it west Eurasian.

[Ouistreham]

The Alps are by and large a genetic barrier (just like the Pyrenees), but with the Mediaeval climatic optimum they were once fairly easy to pass. There is consequently some overlap between the Southern Germanic fringe and North Italy. Large Walliser (Alemannic Germanic) and Bavarian groups settled in high mountainous districts south of the Alpine range and are still there.

It's little known that in the Dark Ages there used to be an ethnic continuum linking east-Central France to modern day Friuli (North-Eastern Italy) through Southern Switzerland, a large stripe of land where people spoke non-Italian Western Romance dialects (they made their plurals in -s), and of which the Romansh, the Ladins and the Friulans are just residual remnants.

For some reason (higher demographics, stronger cultural influence?), Germanicity has been very strong and assertive on its Southern side, whilst it was weak in the West. In France and Belgium, from Flanders to Lorraine, very large Germanic populations have switched to the French culture and the process is still ongoing (see Brussels for instance). Meanwhile, German culture has been gaining ground in Southern Zwitserland and will probably end up assimilating the last Romansh isolates.


The author Maciamo is an expert on history and DNA genetics'
Maciamo is a buffoon and a POS, as simple as that.

[Fire Haired]

The Alps are by and large a genetic barrier (just like the Pyrenees), but with the Mediaeval climatic optimum they were once fairly easy to pass. There is consequently some overlap between the Southern Germanic fringe and North Italy. Large Walliser (Alemannic Germanic) and Bavarian groups settled in high mountainous districts south of the Alpine range and are still there.

It's little known that in the Dark Ages there used to be an ethnic continuum linking east-Central France to modern day Friuli (North-Eastern Italy) through Southern Switzerland, a large stripe of land where people spoke non-Italian Western Romance dialects (they made their plurals in -s), and of which the Romansh, the Ladins and the Friulans are just residual remnants.

For some reason (higher demographics, stronger cultural influence?), Germanicity has been very strong and assertive on its Southern side, whilst it was weak in the West. In France and Belgium, from Flanders to Lorraine, very large Germanic populations have switched to the French culture and the process is still ongoing (see Brussels for instance). Meanwhile, German culture has been gaining ground in Southern Zwitserland and will probably end up assimilating the last Romansh isolates.


Maciamo is a buffoon and a POS, as simple as that.

I had no idea there was an ethnic group like French or Spanish that spoke its own Romance language in northeast Italy and southwest France. Spanish, French, Portuguese, and Italian I am pretty sure formed as ethnicity's while under the Roman rule. Not all Gaul's lived in France but French may be the last people left with just about pure Gaulish ancestry because Switzerland and Germany now have a high amount of Germanic blood. But not all French and ancient Gaul's were the same genetically.

Maciamo is somewhat of an expert in history and genetics' there is no argument in that.

[Th.wolff]

Padania dosen't exist. You are not German. Your Italic. Indo European mixed with neolithic farmers from northern Middle east and Hunters and Gathers(most relative to modern days finns). The diffrence between you and a South Italian is that you have more indo european(aryan) and Hunter and gather admixture. You still have the same components but lower West asian.
Check autosomal maps.

Scusa ma quale straniero? Do you even speak italian you german lover. Did you know how many italians were killed by Austrians in WW1? Self hater

The North is not italic but gallo-romance, nobody thinks to be germanic/german here.

[MelinusMargos]

Padania dosen't exist. You are not German. Your Italic. Indo European mixed with neolithic farmers from northern Middle east and Hunters and Gathers(most relative to modern days finns). The diffrence between you and a South Italian is that you have more indo european(aryan) and Hunter and gather admixture. You still have the same components but lower West asian.
Check autosomal maps.

Scusa ma quale straniero? Do you even speak italian you german lover. Did you know how many italians were killed by Austrians in WW1? Self hater

Shut up, do you know how many people was killed during the unification? The typical phrase "our grandparents made italy with their hardwork so we should not divide it" is a bullshit since most "italians" were actually fighting against this unification. You can't even understand how many Venetians died defending Austria-Hungary.
Actually the unification was only an imperialistic act supported by Jewish inhabitants of the pre-italian states and by european geopolitic situation.

Similiar languages?

"La zét la gha de mocàla fò de cöntà sö öna mànega de cionade issé. Ach sa ta ghét ol padèr ca'l vé de ché vizì a ta sét negott de chèl che'l söcéd debbù de chèste bande. A Ta ghé de tö ü libèr e tacà a stödià ü tochèl. L'è nötel ca ta ma tirèt ciòch. Ghè mìa bisògn de ìga ol solèt bigol ca'l ta cönta sö com a l'è ol tò paìs. A'm sè mìa töcc àzen ché."

Translate. If you can't that's the proof that we don't speak similiar languages and we're not part of the same nation.

[Styrian Mujo]

The North is not italic but gallo-romance, nobody thinks to be germanic/german here.
Actually the north is more Italic than the south wich is mainly MENA who happen to speak a Romance language.

[Peyrol]

The North is not italic but gallo-romance, nobody thinks to be germanic/german here.

I'm repeating this from years, but here people (Mostly balkanic ziganos or some other kind of second/third word ethnicites) are always triyin to teach us (north italics) how we are.

Maybe read some historical or ethnolignuistical book wouldn't be a bad idea.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallo-Romance_languages



http://theapricity.com/wiki/images/0/08/Galloromance2.png

[Toscano]

Look (http://racialreality.110mb.com/padania/index_files/north-south.png)

[Peyrol]

Look (http://racialreality.110mb.com/padania/index_files/north-south.png)

Il link non funziona...

[Toscano]

Il link non funziona...

Guarda questa pagina. http://italianthro.blogspot.se/search/label/Genetics

[Toscano]

E anche questa roba - http://racialreality.blogspot.se/2006/10/italian-facial-composites.html

[MelinusMargos]

I won't comment the "researches" that you posted. You couldn't link anything more amateurish. Link Anthroscape/Crimson Guard too. Then we'll have enough material for a good laugh...

Anyway I'm still waiting for you to translate my brief comment in Lombard language.

[Th.wolff]

E anche questa roba - http://racialreality.blogspot.se/2006/10/italian-facial-composites.html

I veneti che hanno la stessa faccia dei siciliani mi mancava..

[Ouistreham]

http://theapricity.com/wiki/images/0/08/Galloromance2.png

I'm rather skeptical about overstretching of the Gallo-Romance area, which ends up lumping together substantially different dialects with zero mutual intelligibility.

But if we accept this blanket concept in its most extensive meaning, the leftovers of the Rhaeto-Romance stripe can be included, since they share some kind of genetic commonality with French, as well as the Gallo-Italic wedge that extends along the Via Emilia (from Piedmont to the Adriatic coast) since it was the consequence of a superstrate introduced by Charlemagne's invasion.

But between those two, the Venetian area is foreign to the Gallo-Romance thing and shouldn't be included.

[Peyrol]

Racial reality è un blog gestito da un tizio di New York mezzo afroamericano mezzo napoletano...e ovviamente ha un'agenda nello scurire gli italiani e unirli un un'unica accozzaglia.

[Peyrol]

I'm rather skeptical about overstretching of the Gallo-Romance area, which ends up lumping together substantially different dialects with zero mutual intelligibility.

But if we accept this blanket concept in its most extensive meaning, the leftovers of the Rhaeto-Romance stripe can be included, since they share some kind of genetic commonality with French, as well as the Gallo-Italic wedge that extends along the Via Emilia (from Piedmont to the Adriatic coast) since it was the consequence of a superstrate introduced by Charlemagne's invasion.

But between those two, the Venetian area is foreign to the Gallo-Romance thing and shouldn't be included.

Interesting fact: the sermoni subalpini hold all the features of all the galloromance languages, even if they were in old piemontese and not in the ''lombardic koinè'' of middle ages (that was also mentioned by Dante in De Vulgari Eloquentia)...here the sermoni:


Les desmes et les primicies li Chrestien feel Deu devent doner a sainte Eglise e as preveires et pauperibus, e devez saver por quei e per quel auctorité furent trovees. Tut premerement que Deus feist nule creature, sì fist dez ordines d'angeles. Seignor frere, notre Sire dit en son Evangeli que bonaurai sun cil qui àn misericordia, quar il la troveran plenerement. Perqué dist nostre Seignor aquesta parola? Sapiai que pietà si est una de le vertuz qui munt est preciosa e acceptabel davant Deu.
Freres, zo dit l'Apostol, ben est ora que nos levem de dormir. Aquest soig si est en tuit l'omes qui son en aquest sevol, car tuit li omen qui vivun sunt plen de coveitise e s'adorment en lor peccai; e enperò tut zo que il cobiten tut est trespasable, tut est ... . E lo Prophete dit deil ric homes

[Ouistreham]

I know. The Sermoni Subalpini is a fascinating document. The language is 80% pure Occitan of the "vivaro-alpin" variant, which is the closest to Francoprovençal and hence to Oïl French!

Later, like you say, Piedmontese became more or less integrated into the Lombardic continuum, which also encompassed Venetian with which it shares a number of grammatical features that aren't found neither in Occitan nor in French, giving birth to the so-called Gallo-Italic family of languages.

[Peyrol]

I know. The Sermoni Subalpini is a fascinating document. The language is 80% pure Occitan of the "vivaro-alpin" variant, which is the closest to Francoprovençal and hence to Oïl French!

Later, like you say, Piedmontese became more or less integrated into the Lombardic continuum, which also encompassed Venetian with which it shares a number of grammatical features that aren't found neither in Occitan nor in French, giving birth to the so-called Gallo-Italic family of languages.


I wonder how would have been happened if the sabaudian state wouldn't have survied the numerous dynastical crysis when other ''outrealpes'' dynasties tried to annex Piemont-Savoie; probabily the ''lombardization'' of the language wouldn't have been happened and nowadays Piemont (witouth later conquests such Biella and Verbania) would be a français departement.

One of the last promoter of italianization of Piemont-Savoye was this guy (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles-Emmanuel_III_de_Sardaigne): during her reign some people tried to make piemonteis as official language of the kingdom...but this king preferred a pro-italian politic and, with his editto, even local names and surnames were italianized...so, a man (example) named Pejro Arnaud became Piero Arnaudo, another named Jan-Luc Giraud became Gian Luca Giraudi, etc etc etc. Those damn Savoie-Carignano...

[MelinusMargos]

I'm rather skeptical about overstretching of the Gallo-Romance area, which ends up lumping together substantially different dialects with zero mutual intelligibility.

But if we accept this blanket concept in its most extensive meaning, the leftovers of the Rhaeto-Romance stripe can be included, since they share some kind of genetic commonality with French, as well as the Gallo-Italic wedge that extends along the Via Emilia (from Piedmont to the Adriatic coast) since it was the consequence of a superstrate introduced by Charlemagne's invasion.

But between those two, the Venetian area is foreign to the Gallo-Romance thing and shouldn't be included.

I totally agree.

[Peyrol]

A good comparison would be this: if piemontese derived from the lombardization of occitan, basically venetian derived from the lombardization of rhaeto-romance.

[Toscano]

Racial reality è un blog gestito da un tizio di New York mezzo afroamericano mezzo napoletano...e ovviamente ha un'agenda nello scurire gli italiani e unirli un un'unica accozzaglia.

Daje! Stai scherzando ? È vero lui é un negretto?