Should Ukraine and Belarus be part of the Russian Federation?

[DeaththeKid]

Are Ukraine and Belarus different enough culturally and linguistically from Russia to justify independence or are they similar enough to be part of the Russian Federation?

In large countries there are often regional identities I mean look at Italy and Germany. Heck Wales and England are far more different then Ukraine and Russia. If Ukraine and Belarus joined Russia they could still maintain their regional identities as part of a broader Russian state.

[Baluarte]

Not West Ukraine. The rest yes.

[blogen]

Belarus and Western Ukraine are different. Integrating these areas permanently into a Russian state would be impossible, look what happens in Kiev!

[DeaththeKid]

Belarus and Western Ukraine are different. Integrating these areas permanently into a Russian state would be impossible, look what happens in Kiev!

Maybe, but I think it might be because they have been brainwashed by the West and Ukrainian nationalists. Maybe if they were absorbed into Russia they could be re-educated...

[rashka]

I would say yes. They are still all Russians.

[blogen]

Maybe, but I think it might be because they have been brainwashed by the West and Ukrainian nationalists. Maybe if the were absorbed into Russia they could be re-educated...

The West is part of their history since centuries. The Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth or the Austrian Empire is their past. They are partially integrated to the Western world and the Soviet brainwashing was not able to modify this, so there is no chance!

This is my assumption about the future, this is the real maximum of the Russian influence sphere in Europe:
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/3434/q5od.jpg

[arcticwolf]

Ask Ukraine and Belarus what they think about it?

What you think is irrelevant, the only thing that counts is how they feel about it. Both countries have tthe right to self determination.

Said all that I am in favor of all Slavic countries working closely together, as equal members. Only when the bigger and more powerful Slavic nations respect all other Slavic groups as equal partners will that be possible, I hope this happens real soon as there is little time left to be wasted. We don't need to be the same to be one.

[portusaus]

Ukraine if the Ukrainian people want it, Belarus no way.

EDIT: Also, would Moldova be a Russian buffer state?

[Longbowman]

I would say yes. They are still all Russians.

Say that to a Ukrainian's face :P

Brothers don't commit acts of genocide on each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Ukraine should be integrated into the EU, except possibly some of the easternmost raions where the Russians are in the majority. Overall, though, most Ukrainains are not pro-Russia. According to the census data, around 78% of Ukrainian citizens are ethnic Ukrainians, and 17% Russians, again, mainly in the far east of the country. Galicia is 95% Ukrainian.

Here are a couple of maps to ponder:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukraine_cencus_2001_Ukrainian.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukraine_cencus_2001_Russian.svg

Shche ne vmerla Ukraina!

[SKYNET]

What about Ukraine and Belarus I have nothing to say, but Moldova (including the entire border of Transnistria, from north to south) should join România as quickly as possible. One people without borders






http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/0/0f/20110117214230!Potential_union_of_Romania_and_Mold ova_including_Transnistria.png

[Sarmatian]

Say that to a Ukrainian's face :P

I did. They were happy to hear that from Russian :p


Brothers don't commit acts of genocide on each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Oh really?! I don't think Brits are in position to lecture anyone on genocides :rolleyes: Anyway Holodomor was widespread not only in Ukraine but also in large parts of Russia and was directed at general population regardless ethnicity.


Overall, though, most Ukrainains are not pro-Russia.

Says who?


According to the census data, around 78% of Ukrainian citizens are ethnic Ukrainians, and 17% Russians, again, mainly in the far east of the country. Galicia is 95% Ukrainian.

Here are a couple of maps to ponder:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukraine_cencus_2001_Ukrainian.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukraine_cencus_2001_Russian.svg

Shche ne vmerla Ukraina!

Here is a map to ponder:

http://s6.uploads.ru/pJVIn.jpg

Yellow area in the middle is original Ukraine before 1654. Area above is gift from Russian Tzars between 1654 to 1917. Blue area is gift from Lenin in 1922. Red area is gift from Stalin in 1939-40 (that is actually what people refer to as Western Ukraine, yes, it's that small ;)). Green area is Crimea gifted to Ukraine by Khrushchev in 1954.

So one have to ask himself: how can a country have a strong identity when 80% of it's territory (and population) was given to it by another country (ethnicity)?

[Longbowman]

[QUOTE]I did. They were happy to hear that from Russian :p

Were they Ukrainians, or Russo-Ukrainians? Besides, there are always weirdos, but the majority support the West: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25328311


Oh really?! I don't think Brits are in position to lecture anyone on genocides :rolleyes: Anyway Holodomor was widespread not only in Ukraine but also in large parts of Russia and was directed at general population regardless ethnicity.


Typically thirdworld mentality: you did something bad, so we can do something bad. But even still: no. Britain has never done anything nearly as bad as the Holodomor. Whilst you are correct that it wasn't unique to Ukraine, it was almost unique to Ukraine. And the Ukrainians blame it (fairly enough!) on Moscow.


Says who?


Ukrainians.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/ukraines-east-backs-closer-ties-russia-21150536

Although the Russians in the east love Russia, of course.


Here is a map to ponder:

http://s6.uploads.ru/pJVIn.jpg

Yellow area in the middle is original Ukraine before 1654. Area above is gift from Russian Tzars between 1654 to 1917. Blue area is gift from Lenin in 1922. Red area is gift from Stalin in 1939-40 (that is actually what people refer to as Western Ukraine, yes, it's that small ;)). Green area is Crimea gifted to Ukraine by Khrushchev in 1954.

So one have to ask himself: how can a country have a strong identity when 80% of it's territory (and population) was given to it by another country (ethnicity)?

Again, thirdworld thinking: if you 'prove' to someone their country was historically not a country, you think they'll stop being Ukrainian? Ukrainians like being Ukrainians: accept it. Besides, the Ukrainian Kievan Rus' was the East Slavic start-point, so all Russians are basically Ukrainians, not the other way round.

Besides, the Ukrainian people have, of course, been oppressed by the Polish and Russians and Austrians for centuries: that doesn't make them less a people. 'Gifting' Ukraine ethnically Ukrainian areas doesn't put them in your debt: your slaughter of them, your oppression of their language, your general maltreatment are all enough for them to hate you - and from Kiev westwards, they hate you with a passion. Some even joined the Nazis against you in the Great Patriotic War. The actions of the USSR forced many - including my great-grandparents - to flee, too, creating an exodus of the intelligentsia. Russia is Ukraine's worst enemy.

[Baluarte]

What about Ukraine and Belarus I have nothing to say, but Moldova (including the entire border of Transnistria, from north to south) should join România as quickly as possible. One people without borders






http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/0/0f/20110117214230!Potential_union_of_Romania_and_Mold ova_including_Transnistria.png

As long as Romania gives Transylvania back to Hungary. Otherwise there'd be incoherent double standards.

[rashka]

I think that Moldavans are just Slavs that got Vlachized (the old term for Romanian).

[DeaththeKid]

I just realised I made a stupid mistake by wording the poll question so that it's the opposite of the title. I hope it doesn't confuse people.

As in, if you say yes to "Should Ukraine and Belarus be part of the Russian Federation?" then you have to say no to "Are Ukraine and Belarus different enough from Russia to justify independence?"

[Longbowman]

It reads as:

Yes: they should be independent.

No: they should be part of Russia.

[Sarmatian]

Were they Ukrainians, or Russo-Ukrainians? Besides, there are always weirdos, but the majority support the West: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25328311

BBC is probably the least credible source on the Ukrainian matters, at least for me. I have close relatives living in Kiev so I don't need newspapers to tell me what's going on there.


Typically thirdworld mentality:

Typical pathetic attempt of an arrogant Brit to downplay an opponent's opinion. Try harder.


...you did something bad, so we can do something bad.

I have no shame for what my ancestors did. They did what they thought was a right thing to do and I'm not in position to judge them. One thing is certain: none of my family members participated in Holodomor. In fact some of my relatives were a victims of it.


But even still: no. Britain has never done anything nearly as bad as the Holodomor.

British concentration camps in South Africa beat a few Holodomors.


Whilst you are correct that it wasn't unique to Ukraine, it was almost unique to Ukraine. And the Ukrainians blame it (fairly enough!) on Moscow.

Starvation was widespread all over Southern Russia and it was intentionally induced on most agriculturally rich regions. But blaming Moscow for it today is retarded, it was different government with different ideology.


Ukrainians.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/ukraines-east-backs-closer-ties-russia-21150536

Although the Russians in the east love Russia, of course.

Ukrainians I know personally told me different story. And they are not from the East.



Again, thirdworld thinking: if you 'prove' to someone their country was historically not a country, you think they'll stop being Ukrainian? Ukrainians like being Ukrainians: accept it. Besides, the Ukrainian Kievan Rus' was the East Slavic start-point, so all Russians are basically Ukrainians, not the other way round.

Do you realize the very term 'Ukrainian' is a mere 100 years old? For centuries they were knonw as Little Russians.


Besides, the Ukrainian people have, of course, been oppressed by the Polish and Russians and Austrians for centuries: that doesn't make them less a people. 'Gifting' Ukraine ethnically Ukrainian areas doesn't put them in your debt: your slaughter of them, your oppression of their language, your general maltreatment are all enough for them to hate you - and from Kiev westwards, they hate you with a passion. Some even joined the Nazis against you in the Great Patriotic War. The actions of the USSR forced many - including my great-grandparents - to flee, too, creating an exodus of the intelligentsia. Russia is Ukraine's worst enemy.

:picard2:

Ukraine oppressed? You must be insane. Modern day Ukraine and Southern Russia are the only territories in Europe where serfdom never existed. Sich had a hard life being located between major powers like Poland, Russia and Crimea but they manage quite well and even beat mighty Ottomans on a few occasions. Their unification with Russian Empire was voluntary and was a reasonable choice: while being very successful military entity, Sich had no developed governing structure to become fully functional competitive state. They had to join someone else to gain it. And they did quite well considering the fact that Cossacks were free men for as long as Russian Empire lasted. Which is the main reason why so many of them joined Nazis in WWII, they were loyal to Royal family and were hoping to restore Empire. They hated Commies, not Russians. That is the confusion many use nowadays to manipulate the facts. But guess what: USSR =/= Russia. Deal with it.

Anyway all the fuss with Ukrainians hating Russians is highly exagerrated. Only the Western Ukraine (very small minority) hates Russians, the rest is just don't care for most part. You must be one of those runaway Ukrainian Jews who hate Russia with passion :laugh:

[Baluarte]

There are too many countries today, I approve.

Russia gets Belarus+East Ukraine+Crimea. West Ukraine goes to whoever wants to take care of that mess. Ideally Poland Lithuania :D

[Crn Volk]

Ukraine and Belarus should remain independent, unless the majority of their people say otherwise.

[Swearengen]

I did. They were happy to hear that from Russian :p



Oh really?! I don't think Brits are in position to lecture anyone on genocides :rolleyes: Anyway Holodomor was widespread not only in Ukraine but also in large parts of Russia and was directed at general population regardless ethnicity.



Says who?



Here is a map to ponder:

http://s6.uploads.ru/pJVIn.jpg

Yellow area in the middle is original Ukraine before 1654. Area above is gift from Russian Tzars between 1654 to 1917. Blue area is gift from Lenin in 1922. Red area is gift from Stalin in 1939-40 (that is actually what people refer to as Western Ukraine, yes, it's that small ;)). Green area is Crimea gifted to Ukraine by Khrushchev in 1954.

So one have to ask himself: how can a country have a strong identity when 80% of it's territory (and population) was given to it by another country (ethnicity)?

Ukraine was part of the Polish Lithuanian commonwealth for 400 years from the 1300s to 1700s, but were a distinct ethnic group. And then southwestern ukraine was part of austria until the 1900s.

Ukraine did become part of the Russian empire for a while, but that was only a fraction of its history. So to say it was gifted most of its terrirory is just inaccurate.

Also, western Ukraine includes Volhynia. Not sure why Russians always state otherwise.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/Ukraine_KIIS-Regional-division2.png

http://www.russia-ukraine-travel.com/image-files/language-in-ukraine.png

[arcticwolf]

There are too many countries today, I approve.

Russia gets Belarus+East Ukraine+Crimea. West Ukraine goes to whoever wants to take care of that mess. Ideally Poland Lithuania :D

I wouldn't mind union with Ukraine, if both people would support it. They are our brothers and sisters, almost the same genetics. They won't be a mess for long, they are smart and resourceful.

[Swearengen]

Ukraine oppressed? You must be insane. Modern day Ukraine and Southern Russia are the only territories in Europe where serfdom never existed. Sich had a hard life being located between major powers like Poland, Russia and Crimea but they manage quite well and even beat mighty Ottomans on a few occasions. Their unification with Russian Empire was voluntary and was a reasonable choice: while being very successful military entity, Sich had no developed governing structure to become fully functional competitive state. They had to join someone else to gain it. And they did quite well considering the fact that Cossacks were free men for as long as Russian Empire lasted. Which is the main reason why so many of them joined Nazis in WWII, they were loyal to Royal family and were hoping to restore Empire. They hated Commies, not Russians. That is the confusion many use nowadays to manipulate the facts. But guess what: USSR =/= Russia. Deal with it.

Anyway all the fuss with Ukrainians hating Russians is highly exagerrated. Only the Western Ukraine (very small minority) hates Russians, the rest is just don't care for most part. You must be one of those runaway Ukrainian Jews who hate Russia with passion :laugh:

this is also highly inaccurate.

In the mid-17th century, a Cossack military quasi-state, the Zaporozhian Host, was established by the Dnieper Cossacks and the Ruthenian peasants fleeing Polish serfdom.[39] Poland had little real control of this land, yet they found the Cossacks to be a useful fighting force against the Turks and Tatars,[40] and at times the two allied in military campaigns.[41] However, the continued enserfment of peasantry by the Polish nobility, emphasized by the Commonwealth's fierce exploitation of the workforce, and most importantly, the suppression of the Orthodox Church pushed the allegiances of Cossacks away from Poland.[40]

..The serf-turned-national-poet Taras Shevchenko

Lithuanians and Poles controlled vast estates in Ukraine, and were a law unto themselves. Judicial rulings from Cracow were routinely flouted, while peasants were heavily taxed and practically tied to the land as serfs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine

[Zmey Gorynych]

What about Ukraine and Belarus I have nothing to say, but Moldova (including the entire border of Transnistria, from north to south) should join România as quickly as possible. One people without borders
Not going to happen (and it shouldn't happen). Transnistria is inhabited primarily by slavs and will eventually secede (formally, because they've been de facto independent for quite a while). If there's no change of power in Moldova in the next 5 years, Russia will officially recognize Transnistria. It's debatable whether Romania and Moldova will reunite, recent geopolitical developments would suggest that this scenario is possible (not sure how probable though).


As long as Romania gives Transylvania back to Hungary. Otherwise there'd be incoherent double standards.
Moldova is an independent (relatively independent) state inhabited by moldovan romanians (80+ % if we're not counting Transnistria), Transylvania is part of Romania and it's inhabited by romanians (70+ % of total transylvanian population). Where's the double standard, Pedro !?


I think that Moldavans are just Slavs that got Vlachized (the old term for Romanian).
I think you don't think.



The West is part of their history since centuries. The Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth or the Austrian Empire is their past. They are partially integrated to the Western world and the Soviet brainwashing was not able to modify this, so there is no chance!

This is my assumption about the future, this is the real maximum of the Russian influence sphere in Europe:
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/3434/q5od.jpg
Unless Lukshenko hits the bucket and is replaced by a pro-western democratic regime, Belarus' integration in Russia at the moment is more probable than that of south-eastern Ukraine. If Ukraine is divided (which is a far-fetched scenario) forget about independent Ukraine being a buffer state, they'd be integrated in Europe immediately. My guess is that Ukraine and Belarus will stay as they are (in the russian sphere of influence). The only change that I can envisage in this part of the world is Moldova, which will lose Transnistria and move into the european sphere of influence.

[Sarmatian]

this is also highly inaccurate.

In the mid-17th century, a Cossack military quasi-state, the Zaporozhian Host, was established by the Dnieper Cossacks and the Ruthenian peasants fleeing Polish serfdom.[39] Poland had little real control of this land, yet they found the Cossacks to be a useful fighting force against the Turks and Tatars,[40] and at times the two allied in military campaigns.[41] However, the continued enserfment of peasantry by the Polish nobility, emphasized by the Commonwealth's fierce exploitation of the workforce, and most importantly, the suppression of the Orthodox Church pushed the allegiances of Cossacks away from Poland.[40]

..The serf-turned-national-poet Taras Shevchenko

Lithuanians and Poles controlled vast estates in Ukraine, and were a law unto themselves. Judicial rulings from Cracow were routinely flouted, while peasants were heavily taxed and practically tied to the land as serfs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine

Well I phrased it wrong I guess. Better way to describe it: there are territories in Ukraine and Southern Russia in which serfdom never existed. But you're correct, it doesn't include entire Ukraine.

[Szegedist]

Border with Russia? No thanks.

[Sarmatian]

...
Unless Lukshenko hits the bucket and is replaced by a pro-western democratic regime, Belarus' integration in Russia at the moment is more probable than that of south-eastern Ukraine. If Ukraine is divided (which is a far-fetched scenario) forget about independent Ukraine being a buffer state, they'd be integrated in Europe immediately. My guess is that Ukraine and Belarus will stay as they are (in the russian sphere of influence). The only change that I can envisage in this part of the world is Moldova, which will lose Transnistria and move into the european sphere of influence.

Split of Ukraine is very possible reality in some near future. Western part of it is way too anti-Russian while Eastern and Southern parts are too pro-Russian. While the country is hanging in between both sides are more or less content with the situation. But as soon as there will be too much movement one way or another there will be increased tensions which will lead to collapse of the country. There is no unity between Ukrainians and it's impossible today.

[Szegedist]

West Ukraine should become the Hungarian province of Lodoméria like it was in the good old times. Hungaria str0nk!

On a serious note, perhaps Galicia and Volhyn could become a separate state.

[Sarmatian]

West Ukraine should become the Hungarian province of Lodoméria like it was in the good old times. Hungaria str0nk!

On a serious note, perhaps Galicia and Volhyn could become a separate state.

The question is can they be self sufficient? Most of the big industry of Ukraine concentrated in the East of the country.

[DeaththeKid]

On the BBC they were interviewing people from East Ukraine and one woman said "If I were the President I would kick out all the protestors and unite with Russia and Putin". Though I don't know if she actually meant joining Russia or just siding with them. They also interviewed the mayor of the town who is worried that in a year he may need a passport to travel to West Ukraine because the country will split.

The eastern part of the country is the productive part yet the western part is always complaining.

[Corvus]

I have heard different views. My conclusion. Russians regard Ukranians as brothers. Not all Ukranians reciprocate this love though.
But some do it. This country is kind of splitted with a West/East division.
Anyway the Ukranian identity is kind of artificial. Most Ukranians do not even speak Ukranian, preconditioned this can be considered an own language at all. Its more a dialect I assume.
The situation is comparable to Germany/Austria, even though with more geopolitical implications at the moment.

[Windischer]

http://s6.uploads.ru/pJVIn.jpg


inaccurate & wrong. subcarpathia was annexed by ussr and joined to ukrainian ssr after ww2. nationalistic western ukraine - that is galicia, volyn, podolia, not subcarpathia. galicia was ukrainized in 18th - 19th century. subcarpathia was partially ukrainized only in 20th century. and nationalism in subcarpathia is weak, almost non-existent, especially the ukrainian one, as large part (probably majority) of population retains rusyn identity and expressed their demands for autonomy (ignored by kiev), more radical ones sought (still seek?) secession from the ukraine.


Do you realize the very term 'Ukrainian' is a mere 100 years old? For centuries they were knonw as Little Russians.

wrong. term "ukrainian" is older and for centuries they were known as rusyns (ruthenians). today only one east slavic group retains the ethnonym, and ironically it is ukrainians who are trying to suppress it.

[Zmey Gorynych]

Split of Ukraine is very possible reality in some near future. Western part of it is way too anti-Russian while Eastern and Southern parts are too pro-Russian. While the country is hanging in between both sides are more or less content with the situation. But as soon as there will be too much movement one way or another there will be increased tensions which will lead to collapse of the country. There is no unity between Ukrainians and it's impossible today.
Ukrainian authorities will crackdown the protesters and the country will stay aligned with Russia (at least for now). If another orange revolution happens (which is unlikely after the complete failure of the 1st) then Ukraine may be divided. I don't think protests will last much longer, it's the middle of the winter and no amount of samahon can keep them on the maidan :)

[blogen]

they'd be integrated in Europe immediately.

Ukraine will never be the EU's part. Ukraine's situation is similar to Turkey, nobody want the real integration, but would be dangerous to alienate. Because of this endless negotiations are beginning without the hope of the accession. And only an privileged partnership is recommended finally. (http://www.euractiv.com/enlargement/turkey-chief-negotiator-privileged-partnership-insult/article-186179)

[Sarmatian]

inaccurate & wrong. subcarpathia was annexed by ussr and joined to ukrainian ssr after ww2. nationalistic western ukraine - that is galicia, volyn, podolia, not subcarpathia. galicia was ukrainized in 18th - 19th century. subcarpathia was partially ukrainized only in 20th century. and nationalism in subcarpathia is weak, almost non-existent, especially the ukrainian one, as large part (probably majority) of population retains rusyn identity and expressed their demands for autonomy (ignored by kiev), more radical ones sought (still seek?) secession from the ukraine.

Well the date is different for Subcarpathia but it's still gift from Stalin. Also didn't mean to offend your feelings, I'm not really familiar with details of nationalistic sentiments of Western Ukraine.

In any case I'm not sure if Rysins have had their own state at any period of history. If they will split will they join other country or stay independent? As much as I wish them luck with that in fact independence can be a problem for such a small entity, they are not really a Swiss-like, aren't they? Are they identify with some other entity in the region?


wrong. term "ukrainian" is older and for centuries they were known as rusyns (ruthenians). today only one east slavic group retains the ethnonym, and ironically it is ukrainians who are trying to suppress it.

The term 'okraina' was used all over Slavic lands for centuries to designate some areas for pretty obvious reasons. However the term 'Ukrainian' as an ethnic identity was in use for a mere 100 years unless Ruthenians were using it towards themselves earlier. Anyway only minor part of population of modern Ukraine was known as Ruthenians, most were called Little Russians.

[Zmey Gorynych]

Ukraine will never be the EU's part. Ukraine's situation is similar to Turkey, nobody want the real integration, but would be dangerous to alienate. Because of this endless negotiations are beginning without the hope of the accession. And only an privileged partnership is recommended finally. (http://www.euractiv.com/enlargement/turkey-chief-negotiator-privileged-partnership-insult/article-186179)
I have to disagree, Ukraine is a different kettle of fish and has a far more important strategic role in the geo-political game against Russia. EU would love to push Russia out of Ukraine and deny them access to Crimea. The entire eastern-european partnership was conceived with Ukraine in mind.

[Musso]

The West is part of their history since centuries. The Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth or the Austrian Empire is their past. They are partially integrated to the Western world and the Soviet brainwashing was not able to modify this, so there is no chance!

This is my assumption about the future, this is the real maximum of the Russian influence sphere in Europe:
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/3434/q5od.jpg

Armenia is Iran´s possible integrational zone? lol If anything, Armenia is within Russia´s zone of influence, much more than that of Iran, and will join the Eurasian Union upon its creation.

[Sarmatian]

Ukrainian authorities will crackdown the protesters and the country will stay aligned with Russia (at least for now). If another orange revolution happens (which is unlikely after the complete failure of the 1st) then Ukraine may be divided. I don't think protests will last much longer, it's the middle of the winter and no amount of samahon can keep them on the maidan :)

I only wish it was like that but it's a bit more complicated. Nationalists are few but very active and vocal. They seems to be getting help from outside of the country as they act bold like if they have a good backup.

[Windischer]

The term 'okraina' was used all over Slavic lands for centuries to designate some areas for pretty obvious reasons. However the term 'Ukrainian' as an ethnic identity was in use for a mere 100 years unless Ruthenians were using it towards themselves earlier. Anyway only minor part of population of modern Ukraine was known as Ruthenians, most were called Little Russians.

term ukrainian as an ethnonym appeared in 18th or 19th century.
what ukrainians were called like by foreigners isnt much of relevance; their own earlier ethnonym was rusyns (ruthenians).

[blogen]

I have to disagree, Ukraine is a different kettle of fish and has a far more important strategic role in the geo-political game against Russia. EU would love to push Russia out of Ukraine and deny them access to Crimea. The entire eastern-european partnership was conceived with Ukraine in mind.

Ukraine vs. Turkey:
political stability: instable/mostly stable
foreign influance: high (Russia)/no foreign influance
economy: shit/very progressive
military: weak/very strong
social conditions: shit/good
health conditions (HIV, etc.): catastrophic/very good
corruption: extreme high/tolerable low

Turkey is the important partner, Ukraine is not partner, the conditions of Ukraine is horrible. Ukraine is the subject of the European adventurist policy.

[blogen]

Armenia is Iran´s possible integrational zone? lol If anything, Armenia is within Russia´s zone of influence, much more than that of Iran, and will join the Eurasian Union upon its creation.

Russia's sphere of influence.

[Zmey Gorynych]

Ukraine vs. Turkey:
political stability: instable/mostly stable
foreign influance: high (Russia)/no foreign influance
economy: shit/very progressive
military: weak/very strong
social conditions: shit/good
health conditions (HIV, etc.): catastrophic/very good
corruption: extreme high/tolerable low

Turkey is the important partner, Ukraine is not partner, the conditions of Ukraine is horrible. Ukraine is the subject of the European adventurist policy.
Now its been a while since economic and political stability stopped being the main EU selection criteria. Nowadays it's all about sticking it to the other guy.

[Sarmatian]

term ukrainian as an ethnonym appeared in 18th or 19th century.
what ukrainians were called like by foreigners isnt much of relevance; their own earlier ethnonym was rusyns (ruthenians).

I think you're confusing terms here. Rusyns and Ruthenians are not the same thing. Rusyns are specific ethnicity that lives in Carpathia while Ruthenia was a Latin term to designate all people of Rus origin. So basically Ruthenians is foreign term itself that doesn't have a Slavic equivalent other than Rus. And before Duchy of Muscovy was transformed into Russian Empire all those Rus people identified themselves by principalities like Kievans, Halichians, Pskovians etc but still considered themselves as one single ethnic entity and had spoken the same language.

[blogen]

Now its been a while since economic and political stability stopped being the main EU selection criteria. Nowadays it's all about sticking it to the other guy.

In the reality not. In the present crisis the most important viewpoint is the economic one and the second is the political stability. And the accession of a poor country excluded because of the inner problem of the labour migration (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10520181/Theresa-May-growing-concern-about-EU-free-movement.html). And Ukraine is extreme poor.

[Zmey Gorynych]

In the reality not. In the present crisis the most important viewpoint is the economic one and the second is the political stability. And the accession of a poor country excluded because of the inner problem of the labour migration (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/10520181/Theresa-May-growing-concern-about-EU-free-movement.html). And Ukraine is extreme poor.
If that were true countries like Romania and Bulgaria and some of the 2004 additions shouldn't have joined.

[Windischer]

I think you're confusing terms here. Rusyns and Ruthenians are not the same thing. Rusyns are specific ethnicity that lives in Carpathia while Ruthenia was a Latin term to designate all people of Rus origin. So basically Ruthenians is foreign term itself that doesn't have a Slavic equivalent other than Rus. And before Duchy of Muscovy was transformed into Russian Empire all those Rus people identified themselves by principalities like Kievans, Halichians, Pskovians etc but still considered themselves as one single ethnic entity and had spoken the same language.

ruthenian is just latin term for rusyn. rusyn was once ethnonym of people who are now known as ukrainians, rusyns and belarusians. almost all have abandoned it at some point, except for one westernmost group which retained it. those are modern-day rusyns.

[blogen]

If that were true countries like Romania and Bulgaria and some of the 2004 additions shouldn't have joined.

Yes. The Balkan member states would not be able to join now.

[Longbowman]

[QUOTE]BBC is probably the least credible source on the Ukrainian matters, at least for me. I have close relatives living in Kiev so I don't need newspapers to tell me what's going on there.

Are you actually denying the pro-EU riots happening in Ukraine right now? Imbecile.


I have no shame for what my ancestors did. They did what they thought was a right thing to do and I'm not in position to judge them. One thing is certain: none of my family members participated in Holodomor. In fact some of my relatives were a victims of it.


I would be surprised if any of your ancestors actively participated in the Holodomor.


British concentration camps in South Africa beat a few Holodomors.


Holodomor: 2-12 million people deliberately starved to death. 'Concentration camps:' Boers literally put in some camps. Some died of disease, but only a few thousand. You're confusing them with death camps.



Starvation was widespread all over Southern Russia and it was intentionally induced on most agriculturally rich regions. But blaming Moscow for it today is retarded, it was different government with different ideology.


Moscow at the time, I meant - and the ideology of Russia with regards to Ukraine has hardly changed. Russia hasn't apologised for or even acknowledged the Holodomor: why should the Ukrainians forgive you?


Ukrainians I know personally told me different story. And they are not from the East.


[Part of] my family is from the West. They have a different story. Plus, the widespread rioting:

Here's 3 non-BBC sources for you.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-protests-kiev-police-fall-back-after-failed-attempts-to-storm-occupied-city-hall-and-independence-square-8996998.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10486130/Ukrainian-riot-police-break-up-pro-EU-protest-in-Kiev.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/11/world/europe/ukraine-protests/


Do you realize the very term 'Ukrainian' is a mere 100 years old? For centuries they were knonw as Little Russians.


Yes, I do. It doesn't make a difference.


Ukraine oppressed? You must be insane. Modern day Ukraine and Southern Russia are the only territories in Europe where serfdom never existed. Sich had a hard life being located between major powers like Poland, Russia and Crimea but they manage quite well and even beat mighty Ottomans on a few occasions. Their unification with Russian Empire was voluntary and was a reasonable choice: while being very successful military entity, Sich had no developed governing structure to become fully functional competitive state. They had to join someone else to gain it. And they did quite well considering the fact that Cossacks were free men for as long as Russian Empire lasted. Which is the main reason why so many of them joined Nazis in WWII, they were loyal to Royal family and were hoping to restore Empire. They hated Commies, not Russians. That is the confusion many use nowadays to manipulate the facts. But guess what: USSR =/= Russia. Deal with it.


Yes, Russian Empire =/= Russia, too.

Serfdom existed: it got abolished pretty late in the game too:

http://ukrmap.su/en-uh9/369.html

The Ukrainians hated the Soviets and the Russians.


Anyway all the fuss with Ukrainians hating Russians is highly exagerrated. Only the Western Ukraine (very small minority) hates Russians, the rest is just don't care for most part. You must be one of those runaway Ukrainian Jews who hate Russia with passion :laugh:

Hatred is perhaps a strong word; 'retain the desire to be independent from Russia and become closer to the West' is way more accurate. I don't hate Russia - although your government is dreadful, your record on human rights is worse and you don't seem to realise the cold war is over. But Russians themselves? You're fine people :)

Please provide sources for your rambles.

[Windischer]

im certain that mr. ultra wants to tell us something. his objections will be undoubtedly factual and perhaps he will reveal some obscure link to crusades, his favourite topic xD

[Longbowman]

Split of Ukraine is very possible reality in some near future. Western part of it is way too anti-Russian while Eastern and Southern parts are too pro-Russian. While the country is hanging in between both sides are more or less content with the situation. But as soon as there will be too much movement one way or another there will be increased tensions which will lead to collapse of the country. There is no unity between Ukrainians and it's impossible today.

So you admit those in the East are not pro-Russian :) as I've said, I support the Far East joining Russia. It would make things easier for the West and Central raions.

[Sarmatian]

ruthenian is just latin term for rusyn. rusyn was once ethnonym of people who are now known as ukrainians, rusyns and belarusians. almost all have abandoned it at some point, except for one westernmost group which retained it. those are modern-day rusyns.

You're making things up. People who are now known as Ukrainians called themselves 'Рус', 'Русы'. Just as Russians and Belorussians. The Rus identity was spread all the way North up to Novgorod, East up to Murom etc. Later all these Rus people were separated and developed different identities. I suppose the westernmost came under influence of Western Slavs and other neighbors and gradually transformed their name to Rusyns. But I've never ever heard about people from Kiev, Minsk or Smolensk calling themselves Rusyns.

[Longbowman]

I have heard different views. My conclusion. Russians regard Ukranians as brothers. Not all Ukranians reciprocate this love though.
But some do it. This country is kind of splitted with a West/East division.
Anyway the Ukranian identity is kind of artificial. Most Ukranians do not even speak Ukranian, preconditioned this can be considered an own language at all. Its more a dialect I assume.
The situation is comparable to Germany/Austria, even though with more geopolitical implications at the moment.

Brothers, but little brothers. Never quite equals. No one denies the close relationship they have, but as you say, other countries have that too: Ireland/Britain, Austria/Germany and so on and no-one suggests they should unify. The language is about as distinct as Spanish and Portuguese are: just about not mutually intelligible. As for genetics and culture, they are clearly definable. Galician and Hutsul and Rusyn culture is clearly distinct from Russian. Dances like the Kolomaika are unique to Ukraine and not to Russia.

[Windischer]

I support the Far East joining Russia. It would make things easier for the West and Central raions.

not easier, really. eastern ukraine is the economic engine of ukraine.
also, (some?) eastern oligarchs seem to push janukovyč towards signing the association treaty.

[Sarmatian]

Are you actually denying the pro-EU riots happening in Ukraine right now? Imbecile.

English. Can you read it, prick? Where did I deny the riots?


Moscow at the time, I meant - and the ideology of Russia with regards to Ukraine has hardly changed. Russia hasn't apologised for or even acknowledged the Holodomor: why should the Ukrainians forgive you?

They shouldn't forgive as there is simply nothing to acknowledge nor forgive. All victims of these crimes are gone, all perpetrators are gone, there are no people in power today who pursue the same ideology. Of all the people that live in Ukraine today a minority is related to those who were affected. Case closed.


[Part of] my family is from the West. They have a different story. Plus, the widespread rioting:

Here's 3 non-BBC sources for you.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-protests-kiev-police-fall-back-after-failed-attempts-to-storm-occupied-city-hall-and-independence-square-8996998.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10486130/Ukrainian-riot-police-break-up-pro-EU-protest-in-Kiev.html
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/12/11/world/europe/ukraine-protests/

As I said I don't need any media sources to find out what's going on. They are full of blatant BS anyway. I can call to my cousins in Kiev and get all the info from first hands. So far 99% of Ukrainians don't give a flying fuck about what's going on and moving on with their everyday lives. Just a few staged rioters and a bunch of adrenaline junkies trying to work out the bucks they got from their foreign masters.


Yes, I do. It doesn't make a difference.

In fact it does. You implying that Ukrainians are some sort of unified entity for most part while they are not. It's an artificial creation of USSR.

[Sarmatian]

So you admit those in the East are not pro-Russian :) as I've said, I support the Far East joining Russia. It would make things easier for the West and Central raions.

:picard2:

Again... English... Can you read it mazafaka???

[Windischer]

You're making things up. People who are now known as Ukrainians called themselves 'Рус', 'Русы'. Just as Russians and Belorussians. The Rus identity was spread all the way North up to Novgorod, East up to Murom etc. Later all these Rus people were separated and developed different identities. I suppose the westernmost came under influence of Western Slavs and other neighbors and gradually transformed their name to Rusyns. But I've never ever heard about people from Kiev, Minsk or Smolensk calling themselves Rusyns.

no.
rus - an early medieval state named after its founding scandinavian tribe. after dissolution of the state, rus is used ambiguously in various contexts as a geographic term.
rusyn - inhabitant of rus, in its geographic sense (e. g. belarusians were often referred to by their tribal names up to 12th century); i. e. an ethnonym
adjective - ruskyj, ruska(ja), rusk(oj)e

[Szegedist]

no.
rus - an early medieval state named after its founding scandinavian tribe. after dissolution of the state, rus is used ambiguously in various contexts as a geographic term.
rusyn - inhabitant of rus, in its geographic sense (e. g. belarusians were often referred to by their tribal names up to 12th century); i. e. an ethnonym
adjective - ruskyj, ruska(ja), rusk(oj)e

rusnak str0nk!

[Longbowman]

[QUOTE]English. Can you read it, prick? Where did I deny the riots?

I posted a link from the BBC about the riots. You said the BBC was unreliable.

Oh, right, you probably didn't even read it, as it's full of evil anti-Putin propaganda.

Here it is again: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25328311


They shouldn't forgive as there is simply nothing to acknowledge nor forgive. All victims of these crimes are gone, all perpetrators are gone, there are no people in power today who pursue the same ideology. Of all the people that live in Ukraine today a minority is related to those who were affected. Case closed.


I agree. I'm just explaining why the Russians are disliked.


As I said I don't need any media sources to find out what's going on. They are full of blatant BS anyway. I can call to my cousins in Kiev and get all the info from first hands. So far 99% of Ukrainians don't give a flying fuck about what's going on and moving on with their everyday lives. Just a few staged rioters and a bunch of adrenaline junkies trying to work out the bucks they got from their foreign masters.


Your cousins in Kiev are Russians, I'm guessing, living in the Russian areas of the city. Doesn't count.


In fact it does. You implying that Ukrainians are some sort of unified entity for most part while they are not. It's an artificial creation of USSR.

<implying this is supported by historical fact.

They speak a different language, they have a different culture, and, oh yes, they don't want to be part of Russia and probably never will (except maybe the Eastern Raions). So really your whole argument is kind of pointless, because they're not going to have a change of heart and realise how great it would be to be the next Chechnya.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ukraine

[Longbowman]

not easier, really. eastern ukraine is the economic engine of ukraine.
also, (some?) eastern oligarchs seem to push janukovyč towards signing the association treaty.

Easier politically. Obviously losing 15% of your territory would be bad.

[noman.rasheed]

Yes, yes, yes ... Евразийский Союз

[Sarmatian]

no.
rus - an early medieval state named after its founding scandinavian tribe. after dissolution of the state, rus is used ambiguously in various contexts as a geographic term.
rusyn - inhabitant of rus, in its geographic sense (e. g. belarusians were often referred to by their tribal names up to 12th century); i. e. an ethnonym
adjective - ruskyj, ruska(ja), rusk(oj)e

That is the first time I hear such thing. However in such terms all people originated from this area

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Map_of_ancient_Russian_cities.JPG

which are Ukrainians, Belorussians and Russians can be referred to as Rusyns.

[Windischer]

as i said, rusyn became an ethnonym after disintegration of kievan rus, when the term rus was only geographic (and loosely defined).

[Sarmatian]

I posted a link from the BBC about the riots. You said the BBC was unreliable.

Oh, right, you probably didn't even read it, as it's full of evil anti-Putin propaganda.

Here it is again: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25328311

I equally don't care for pro-Putin or anti-Putin propaganda. Pictures of 'benevolent' Muricans giving out some bread and playing saviors are specially amusing... specifically that contempt on the face of Ukrainian police officer :laugh:


Your cousins in Kiev are Russians, I'm guessing, living in the Russian areas of the city. Doesn't count.

My cousin is a high ranking military officer in Kiev, I'm sure he knows things much better than some BBC, CNN or whatever... oh wait, CNN only tells the truth... rrrrrrright :rolleyes: :laugh:

Now lets see how you twisting the facts:


<implying this is supported by historical fact.

They speak a different language,...

Partially true


...they have a different culture,...

True


...and, oh yes, they don't want to be part of Russia and probably never will (except maybe the Eastern Raions).

Bold part implying that it's true for majority of Ukrainians while it's not. The Western anti-Russian part is much smaller in terms of territory, population and economy compared to Eastern/Southern pro-Russian part. Central part around Kiev, which is big too, is sort of in between: they have no strong anti-Russian sentiments but still prefer to keep their pie separate as long as it's possible. If Ukraine will split the future of this central part is uncertain and could be a subject of a civil war.

In any case the largest part of Ukraine want to be if not part of Russia then its close ally.

[Longbowman]

[QUOTE]
My cousin is a high ranking military officer in Kiev, I'm sure he knows things much better than some BBC, CNN or whatever... oh wait, CNN only tells the truth... rrrrrrright :rolleyes: :laugh:

Dude, the riots are happening. I could give you ten thousands links. Can you give me one that says they aren't?


Partially true


Obviously they're both East Slavic and closely related but saying they're the same is like saying Spanish and Portuguese are the same.


Bold part implying that it's true for majority of Ukrainians while it's not. The Western anti-Russian part is much smaller in terms of territory, population and economy compared to Eastern/Southern pro-Russian part. Central part around Kiev, which is big too, is sort of in between: they have no strong anti-Russian sentiments but still prefer to keep their pie separate as long as it's possible. If Ukraine will split the future of this central part is uncertain and could be a subject of a civil war.


See, you're mistaking Kiev itself (urban, 26% Russian) for the surrounding raions which are overwhelmingly Ukrainian. But yeah, there's certainly a c. 75-25 split. This is known.


In any case the largest part of Ukraine want to be if not part of Russia then it's close ally.

Yes, but the largest part of Ukraine also wants to be a close ally of the West, hence the riots and attempts to accede to the EU and NATO. They don't want Russia as their enemy, of course.

[Sarmatian]

Dude, the riots are happening. I could give you ten thousands links. Can you give me one that says they aren't?

I've never denied the riots. I question motives of the rioters, I question media claims that 'entire Ukrainian nation is raised in a bid for closer ties with EU and NATO' and I have very good reasons for it.

As I said before all these riots are staged spectacle, names of organizers are well known, 99% of Ukrainians don't care and business as usual like nothing happening. Western media do business as usual too and dramatizing all the shit... well... as usual. They have to work out the bread for their masters, aren't they :laugh:

But you shall worry not, if there will be any change in situation I'll update you on it as soon as I'll get the information ;)

[Sarmatian]

as i said, rusyn became an ethnonym after disintegration of kievan rus, when the term rus was only geographic (and loosely defined).

Do you have any info on the spread of the ethnonym once it's formed?

[Longbowman]

[QUOTE]I've never denied the riots. I question motives of the rioters, I question media claims that 'entire Ukrainian nation is raised in a bid for closer ties with EU and NATO' and I have very good reasons for it.


Obviously if the entire nation were for it there'd be no need for the riots, but a huge segment care enough to riot. But it's more a protest against corruption and overt Russian influence on their sovereignty than anything else.


As I said before all these riots are staged spectacle, names of organizers are well known, 99% of Ukrainians don't care and business as usual like nothing happening. Western media do business as usual too and dramatizing all the shit... well... as usual. They have to work out the bread for their masters, aren't they :laugh:


But you shall worry not, if there will be any change in situation I'll update you on it as soon as I'll get the information ;)

All you have is a hunch, really. Can you back up your claims? Ukrainians don't appreciate undue impact on their sovereignty. No one would. The riots aren't staged and Russia is very, very far from perfect both domestically or as a neighbour - look at Georgia, for example (yes, I know that the Georgians were dicks and Abkhazia/South Ossetia should be independent but Russia's willingness to bombard a much smaller neighbour frightens its other ones). Internationally Russia is known as a cold player with no regard for international law: the poisoning of Litvinenko and other murders of Russian exiles in Britain and the Russian refusal to hand over suspects, for example. As a nationalist myself, I appreciate your support for your country: I even appreciate and admire Russian willingness to do whatever it wants, like Israel. But, like Israel, you must acknowledge that the price you pay is deep mistrust and yes, sometimes hatred.

[Ivan Kramskoï]

Russia, Ukraine and Belarus should form one country, in fact only perhaps western Ukraine which i slight different but the for the rest, the people possess the same ethnicity and used to be united in one single country.
For and example 3 of my great grand parents were born in those lands but considered themselves ethnic Russians and did not even spoke Ukrainian and Belorussian ( some people even speak Belorussian ??).

[Longbowman]

Russia, Ukraine and Belarus should form one country, in fact only perhaps western Ukraine which i slight different but the for the rest, the people possess the same ethnicity and used to be united in one single country.
For and example 3 of my great grand parents were born in those lands but considered themselves ethnic Russians and did not even spoke Ukrainian and Belorussian ( some people even speak Belorussian ??).

The situation in Belarus is admittedly different, but your grandparents were probably ethnic Russians - my great grandfather was born in India to a British colonial family, but that doesn't make him Indian!

Either that, or they adopted the customs of Imperial or Soviet Russia for upward social mobility.

Belorussian is a small language and most Belorussians speak Russian but the same is not true of Ukrainian. Looking at their alliances and policies, Belarus is basically already a part of Russia...

[Sarmatian]

Obviously if the entire nation were for it there'd be no need for the riots, but a huge segment care enough to riot. But it's more a protest against corruption and overt Russian influence on their sovereignty than anything else.

The riots are staged by a paid few. They know what they are, they know why they are there and what they are doing. However the bigger part of the rioters are honest naive sympathizers who sincerely believe in benefits of the idea of unification with progressive West and felt obliged to express their support. They are just puppets played by the tricky few and follow these active initiators wherever they go.


All you have is a hunch, really. Can you back up your claims?

I'm not sure you really understand what you asking about. Do you want me to give you names of people I've got my information from? Just LOL.


Ukrainians don't appreciate undue impact on their sovereignty. No one would.

Again Ukrainians are not a unified entity and different ones appreciate different things.


The riots aren't staged and Russia is very, very far from perfect both domestically or as a neighbour - look at Georgia, for example (yes, I know that the Georgians were dicks and Abkhazia/South Ossetia should be independent but Russia's willingness to bombard a much smaller neighbour frightens its other ones).

You can't really compare Ukraine to Georgia which have a strong unified ethnic identity formed over millennium. Ukraine is far from that.

As for bombings, get you facts straight. It wasn't for being dicks as when Georgia was a dick to Abkhazia nobody bombed it. It was bombed for attacking Russian peacekeepers stationed in South Ossetia. You deliberately attack our citizen - we bomb the shit out of you. Does it fit your perception of international law?


Internationally Russia is known as a cold player with no regard for international law: the poisoning of Litvinenko and other murders of Russian exiles in Britain and the Russian refusal to hand over suspects, for example.

Case of Litvinenko is extremely flawed. Usage of highly radioactive substances to poison him is extreme case of retardation in my eyes. The transportation of such substance alone would be a nightmare for the best smugglers in business. Also the exposure of the agent performing the task to the radiation would inevitable kill him just as it's killed the victim. A knife, a gun or a chemical poison would do the job much faster and effective and leave a huge room for covering the ends. So to me it's all looks like another spectacle to make Russia look like 'a cold player with no regard for international law'. Trust me, if 'KGB' wants to take someone out without noise, they can do it just as effective as CIA, MI5 or Mossad.

[Windischer]

Do you have any info on the spread of the ethnonym once it's formed?

it is well documented in hungary, grand duchy of lithuania and poland (the commonwealth) since high middle-ages until modern period. maybe rugevit can tell you more because i have 2 exams this week.

[Windischer]

You deliberately attack our citizen - we bomb the shit out of you. Does it fit your perception of international law?

its not in accordance with international law because of breaching the principle of proportionality, and maybe some other things as well which i cant recall right now.

[Longbowman]

[QUOTE]The riots are staged by a paid few. They know what they are, they know why they are there and what they are doing. However the bigger part of the rioters are honest naive sympathizers who sincerely believe in benefits of the idea of unification with progressive West and felt obliged to express their support. They are just puppets played by the tricky few and follow these active initiators wherever they go.

Proof?

The part in bold is you admitting that lots of Ukrainians support the EU.


I'm not sure you really understand what you asking about. Do you want me to give you names of people I've got my information from? Just LOL.


Any proof will do. I source my points with articles from different sources.


Again Ukrainians are not a unified entity and different ones appreciate different things.


No one is unified. Some Russians want to break away and form the Dagestani Republic and some Russians want Putin to go to jail. I'm just talking about national trends.


You can't really compare Ukraine to Georgia which have a strong unified ethnic identity formed over millennium. Ukraine is far from that.


Actually, I can. It doesn't matter how recent the identity is, it matters that it exists.


As for bombings, get you facts straight. It wasn't for being dicks as when Georgia was a dick to Abkhazia nobody bombed it. It was bombed for attacking Russian peacekeepers stationed in South Ossetia. You deliberately attack our citizen - we bomb the shit out of you. Does it fit your perception of international law?


You? I'm not Georgian, bro 8)

I know, I touched on that, but South Ossetia is/was viewed as Georgian territory and your peacekeepers weren't viewed as peacekeepers, but as occupiers. That's just from their perspective. Which is what you don't understand: people have their own views of the world, and, right or wrong, people don't trust Russia.


Case of Litvinenko is extremely flawed. Usage of highly radioactive substances to poison him is extreme case of retardation in my eyes. The transportation of such substance alone would be a nightmare for the best smugglers in business. Also the exposure of the agent performing the task to the radiation would inevitable kill him just as it's killed the victim. A knife, a gun or a chemical poison would do the job much faster and effective and leave a huge room for covering the ends. So to me it's all looks like another spectacle to make Russia look like 'a cold player with no regard for international law'. Trust me, if 'KGB' wants to take someone out without noise, they can do it just as effective as CIA, MI5 or Mossad.

MI5 doesn't take people out as a policy and besides, you mean MI6, MI5 is domestic (like the FBI). Even if you're right - which you aren't - there are other examples of more simple killings where assassins have tried to make it look like the man slipped in the bath, etc. But, it doesn't matter. What matters is Russia is perceived to have done it. Thus, people don't trust Russia.

And Litvinenko is just one case amongst many.

MI6 doesn't need to kill people to make Russia look bad - Russia does that by herself, with the anti-gay-propaganda laws, the rigged elections, etc.

The suspect basically confessed anyway - he gloated about it back in Russia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/exclusive-murdered-spy-alexander-litvinenko-gave-mi6-secret-briefings-about-key-ally-of-russian-president-vladimir-putin-8970939.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2314902/Russian-politician-wanted-murder-Alexander-Litvinenko-marries-student-half-age-didnt-know-killing.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2095783/Murdered-Russian-spy-Alexander-Litvinenko-branded-traitor-father.html
http://metro.co.uk/2013/03/12/ex-kgb-agent-andrei-lugovoy-refuses-to-help-inquest-into-murder-of-poisoned-spy-alexander-litvinenko-3537606/

[Sarmatian]

Proof?

The part in bold is you admitting that lots of Ukrainians support the EU.

Well... 'lots' as enough to make a crowd on a square big enough to impress foreign journalists and give them food for international hysteria. Still far from being more than even 1% of total Ukrainian population.


Any proof will do. I source my points with articles from different sources.

I'm not sure you understand a gravity of what you asking for. Do you want me to give you the name of my relatives?


No one is unified. Some Russians want to break away and form the Dagestani Republic and some Russians want Putin to go to jail. I'm just talking about national trends.

The problem here is Ukraine lacks unification to the point where it can't have any national trends. Just because there is no unified national identity.


Actually, I can. It doesn't matter how recent the identity is, it matters that it exists.

It's debatable. See above about Ukrainian unity.


You? I'm not Georgian, bro 8)

I know lol. I was speaking figuratively.


I know, I touched on that, but South Ossetia is/was viewed as Georgian territory and your peacekeepers weren't viewed as peacekeepers, but as occupiers. That's just from their perspective. Which is what you don't understand: people have their own views of the world, and, right or wrong, people don't trust Russia.

The presence of peacekeepers was confirmed by agreements signed by Georgian government. It was legitimate from the point of international law. A retaliation over the violence against these peacekeepers was fully justified.


MI5 doesn't take people out as a policy and besides, you mean MI6, MI5 is domestic (like the FBI). Even if you're right - which you aren't - there are other examples of more simple killings where assassins have tried to make it look like the man slipped in the bath, etc. But, it doesn't matter. What matters is Russia is perceived to have done it. Thus, people don't trust Russia.

And Litvinenko is just one case amongst many.

MI6 doesn't need to kill people to make Russia look bad - Russia does that by herself, with the anti-gay-propaganda laws, the rigged elections, etc.

The suspect basically confessed anyway - he gloated about it back in Russia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Alexander_Litvinenko
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/exclusive-murdered-spy-alexander-litvinenko-gave-mi6-secret-briefings-about-key-ally-of-russian-president-vladimir-putin-8970939.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2314902/Russian-politician-wanted-murder-Alexander-Litvinenko-marries-student-half-age-didnt-know-killing.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2095783/Murdered-Russian-spy-Alexander-Litvinenko-branded-traitor-father.html
http://metro.co.uk/2013/03/12/ex-kgb-agent-andrei-lugovoy-refuses-to-help-inquest-into-murder-of-poisoned-spy-alexander-litvinenko-3537606/

And your point is? People don't trust governments in general, it's quite a popular recent trend. Russian government is just one of them, it's happened to be powerful enough and not being allied to the West to make it into one of targets of Western government' demonizing propaganda. Is it surprise for you?

[Longbowman]

[QUOTE]Well... 'lots' as enough to make a crowd on a square big enough to impress foreign journalists and give them food for international hysteria. Still far from being more than even 1% of total Ukrainian population.


<suggesting that the rioters are the only people who support the EU
<suggesting 1% of the population is a small amount
<suggesting only 1% of the population are rioting


I'm not sure you understand a gravity of what you asking for. Do you want me to give you the name of my relatives?


No. I want you to provide me with any proof. If your only proof is something your cousin told you then you have none.


The problem here is Ukraine lacks unification to the point where it can't have any national trends. Just because there is no unified national identity.


Don't be ridiculous.


It's debatable. See above about Ukrainian unity.


It's only debatable to foreign nationalists. To any reasonable objectivist, it isn't.


The presence of peacekeepers was confirmed by agreements signed by Georgian government. It was legitimate from the point of international law. A retaliation over the violence against these peacekeepers was fully justified.


Fair enough. The main point is about perception, though.


And your point is? People don't trust governments in general, it's quite a popular recent trend. Russian government is just one of them, it's happened to be powerful enough and not being allied to the West to make it into one of targets of Western government' demonizing propaganda. Is it surprise for you?

No, but you're mistaking distrust in the west and in Russia. In the West, people think the government is incompetent, not evil and corrupt. In Russia, it's the other way around, and that's far worse.

[Hweinlant]

So basically Ruthenians is foreign term itself that doesn't have a Slavic equivalent other than Rus.

This is not true. Medieval authors, such as Olaus Magnus, made clear distinction between Muscovites and Ruthenians. See Historia de Gentibus Septentrionalibus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Description_of_the_Northern_Peoples) for further reference.

[Johnnyboy70]

What about Ukraine and Belarus I have nothing to say, but Moldova (including the entire border of Transnistria, from north to south) should join România as quickly as possible. One people without borders






http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/0/0f/20110117214230!Potential_union_of_Romania_and_Mold ova_including_Transnistria.png

A bigger gypsyland?

[Swearengen]

I equally don't care for pro-Putin or anti-Putin propaganda. Pictures of 'benevolent' Muricans giving out some bread and playing saviors are specially amusing... specifically that contempt on the face of Ukrainian police officer :laugh:



My cousin is a high ranking military officer in Kiev, I'm sure he knows things much better than some BBC, CNN or whatever... oh wait, CNN only tells the truth... rrrrrrright :rolleyes: :laugh:

Now lets see how you twisting the facts:



Partially true



True



Bold part implying that it's true for majority of Ukrainians while it's not. The Western anti-Russian part is much smaller in terms of territory, population and economy compared to Eastern/Southern pro-Russian part. Central part around Kiev, which is big too, is sort of in between: they have no strong anti-Russian sentiments but still prefer to keep their pie separate as long as it's possible. If Ukraine will split the future of this central part is uncertain and could be a subject of a civil war.

In any case the largest part of Ukraine want to be if not part of Russia then its close ally.

Most western Ukrainians aren't overly nationalistic like they are sometimes portrayed to be.

You can judge nationalism in different areas by support for Svoboda.

http://www.geocurrents.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Svoboda_party_map_2006-2012.png

You can also look at support for the major parties.

http://www.geocurrents.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Ukrainian_elections_2004-2012_maps.png

Russians often associate Ukrainian nationalism with the former Austrian territories. This is why you only refer to those parts of Ukraine as western Ukraine. However, as Verchar said, Zakkarpatia is not nationalistic at all. And nationalism is found in places like Volyn and Rivne.

This mindset trivializes Ukrainian nationalism as you are suggesting that it only exists due to western influence. It's as if you are saying that no reasonable Ukrainian would be anti-Russian without western influence. But in reality, Ukrainian nationalism is found in areas where Russification is absent and Ukrainian culture is preserved.

On the other hand, many central and especially eastern and southern Ukrainians identify very strongly with Russia to the point that they basically consider themselves Russians. This isn't a long held belief dating back to the period of Rus, but is rather the result of Russification.

[SKYNET]

A bigger gypsyland?


What an ignorant. Have you ever been to Romania before you write about "gypsyland"?

[blogen]

Russians often associate Ukrainian nationalism with the former Austrian territories. This is why you only refer to those parts of Ukraine as western Ukraine. However, as Verchar said, Zakkarpatia is not nationalistic at all. And nationalism is found in places like Volyn and Rivne.

Since Zakkarpatia was not an Austrian area. The Ruthenian nationalism of the Imperial Galicia did not prevail in the Hungarian Kingdom. The base of the ukrainian nationalism is missing on this area practically, the Ukrainian ethnic self-awareness. The local residents are mostly Rusyns and not Ukrainians.

[Swearengen]

Since Zakkarpatia was not an Austrian area. The Ruthenian nationalism of the Imperial Galicia did not prevail in the Hungarian Kingdom. The base of the ukrainian nationalism is missing on this area practically, the Ukrainian ethnic self-awareness. The local residents are mostly Rusyns and not Ukrainians.

The Rusyns from Galicia, etc. also refused to call themselves Ukrainians. Their reasons for self-identification has to do with their history and culture. You are also trivializing their motives by saying what you did.

[Vlach]

As long as Romania gives Transylvania back to Hungary. Otherwise there'd be incoherent double standards.

:picard1: Romanians are the majority in Transylvania, and Moldova probably will vote their future, we will never force them to unite with us

[Trun]

Ukrainians and Russians are quite different people. Moreover, Ukrainians don't want to hear about Russia.

[blogen]

:picard1: Romanians are the majority in Transylvania, and Moldova probably will vote their future, we will never force them to unite with us

The Romanians are a tiny minority in Moldova. The majority of the Moldovan population are Moldovans.

The Moldovans in Moldova:
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/5886/moldovai.jpg

The Romanians in Moldova:
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3199/moldovaroman.jpg

[Vlach]

The Romanians are a tiny minority in Moldova. The majority of the Moldovan population are Moldovans.

The Moldovans in Moldova:
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/5886/moldovai.jpg

The Romanians in Moldova:
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/3199/moldovaroman.jpg

DUDE, we are talking about the differences betwen romanians and moldavians. There's are not differences betwen ME ( my grandparents are from romanian Moldavia and I was borned in Timisoara(Banat) , and a moldavian guy from Chisinau)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vUF-x7euIg

Traian Basescu is one of the most hated man in Romania, but the Moldavians love him because they need our help. :thumb001:, they know there's a unnatural border between us

[Zmey Gorynych]

DUDE, we are talking about the differences betwen romanians and moldavians. There's are not differences betwen ME ( my grandparents are from romanian Moldavia and I was borned in Timisoara(Banat) , and a moldavian guy from Chisinau)
My advice to you is to not argue(bicker) with God knows who about the identity of moldavans. Let others 'preach' whatever they want, while romanians and moldovans do what they did several times before - unite.

[Szegedist]

My advice to you is to not argue(bicker) with God knows who about the identity of moldavans. Let others 'preach' whatever they want, while romanians and moldovans do what they did several times before - unite.

Romania and Moldova never united in the past. Moldova was OCCUPIED by fascists in Buchurest.

[blogen]

DUDE, we are talking about the differences betwen romanians and moldavians. There's are not differences betwen ME ( my grandparents are from romanian Moldavia and I was borned in Timisoara(Banat) , and a moldavian guy from Chisinau)Traian Basescu is one of the most hated man in Romania, but the Moldavians love him because they need our help. :thumb001:, they know there's a unnatural border between us

Then you are an assimilated Moldovan, who is a Romanian now. Good for you!

[Vlach]

Then you are an assimilated Moldovan, who is a Romanian now. Good for you!

What?

[blogen]

What?

Your grandparents were Moldovans and now you are a Romanian. Your family assimilated. But this does not mean it that the Moldovan and the Romanian are identical.

[Vlach]

Your grandparents were Moldovans and now you are a Romanian. Your family assimilated. But this does not mean it that the Moldovan and the Romanian are identical.

There's are differences betwen hungarians from Transylvania and hungarians from Hungaria?

[blogen]

There's are differences betwen hungarians from Transylvania and hungarians from Hungaria?

According to the official Romanian narrative: yes. The Romanian census acknowledges the separated Székely and Csángó folk. Do not use double standard!

[Zaycev]

Then you are an assimilated Moldovan, who is a Romanian now. Good for you!

There is no difference between an Moldovan and Romanian. Moldavia was integral in the role of unification of Romania back in 1859 I think. Stop spreading bullshit. You're not even romanian, nor moldovian to judge.

I don't know why most hungarians in this forum are such utter retards

[Zaycev]

The answer to this is pretty clear. Western Ukraine is not russian, however, eastern Ukraine always was russian. Same with Belorus. Heck, they even have the "RUS" in their COuntry-name.

[blogen]

There is no difference between an Moldovan and Romanian. Moldavia was integral in the role of unification of Romania back in 1859 I think.

Western Moldova. Eastern Moldova not. And it was Romania's creation and not unification, since Romania did not exist before. Moldova existed and Wallachia.

[Zaycev]

Western Moldova. Eastern Moldova not. And it was Romania's creation and not unification, since Romania did not exist before. Moldova existed and Wallachia.

Eastern Moldovia is Transnistria and has russian/ukraine identity, that's true, however, it doesn't change the fact that "Western Moldovia" (how oyu call it) is romanian, romanian by culture, religion and language. Many Moldovians see themselves as Romanians.

[Zaycev]

Moldavia was one of many mistakes of soviet-Russia. That's why this little country rots there somewhere in eastern european nowhere land. It's one of the most poorest countries in Europe. There can't be a better thing for them than to join Romania and so to join EU

Stop with this balkanization.

[Shkembe Chorba]

Dont split Ukraine!

[blogen]

Eastern Moldovia is Transnistria and has russian/ukraine identity, that's true, however, it doesn't change the fact that "Western Moldovia" (how oyu call it) is romanian, romanian by culture, religion and language. Many Moldovians see themselves as Romanians.

Eastern Moldova is Bessarabia and Transnistria is a multiethnic territory with significant Moldovan population. And we do not know what is Western Moldova now, since the Romanian state abolished the Moldovan identity and there are no statistics from this identity. Maybe Western Moldova is Romanian now, maybe not. The local population does not have an opportunity to make a statement about his identity.

And if Romania would make a conquest of Eastern Moldova it would be the Balkanization, since Eastern Moldova is not a Balkan state now, but an Eastern European by culture and political connections.

[blogen]

edit

[Zaycev]

Eastern Moldova is Bessarabia and Transnistria is a multiethnic territory with significant Moldovan population. And we do not know what is Western Moldova now, since the Romanian state abolished the Moldovan identity and there are no statistics from this identity. Maybe Western Moldova is Romanian now, maybe not. The local population does not have an opportunity to make a statement about his identity.

And if Romania would make a conquest of Eastern Moldova it would be the Balkanization, since Eastern Moldova is not a Balkan state now, but an Eastern European by culture and political connections.

you do know the definition of balkanization, do you?

[Trun]

Don't forget about the Bulgarian part of Moldova - Gagauzia.

[blogen]

you do know the definition of balkanization, do you?

Yes, and there are two definition:

1. slicing

2. decline: total corruption, feudalism, dark age. For example this was Romania for the once developed European Transsylvania.

[blogen]

Don't forget about the Bulgarian part of Moldova - Gagauzia.

Gagauzia Turkic. The Budjak Bulgarians majority live in the Ukrainian part of Budjak:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Bugeac-etnic.png

[Zaycev]

LMFAO hungarians, please stop being ridiculous. As if you guys are so far better.

[blogen]

LMFAO hungarians, please stop being ridiculous. As if you guys are so far better.

Yes, we are better.

[Zaycev]

here we go again. i don't know what you guys in your small country study in school, but it's certainly not healthy. you're not important at all.

[blogen]

here we go again. i don't know what you guys in your small country study in school, but it's certainly not healthy. you're not important at all.

This is not importance, this is different culture.

[Zmey Gorynych]

Gagauzia Turkic. The Budjak Bulgarians majority live in the Ukrainian part of Budjak
Gagauz people are turkic speaking, because genetically they're not different from the very same bulgarians (as in they only speak a turkic language and that's the only turkic thing about them ... it's debatable how much gagauz they actually speak, since russian is almost like their maternal language these days)

[blogen]

Gagauz people are turkic speaking, because genetically they're not different from the very same bulgarians (as in they only speak a turkic language and that's the only turkic thing about them ... it's debatable how much gagauz they actually speak, since russian is almost like their maternal language these days)

Or lot of Bulgarian not different from the Turkic speaking populations, since the Gagauz peoples are direct descendants of turkic nomads.

[Zmey Gorynych]

Or lot of Bulgarian not different from the Turkic speaking populations, since the Gagauz peoples are direct descendants of turkic nomads.
If that were the case the genetic distance between bulgarians and other balkanic nations (and, why not, other europeans) would've been considerably bigger.

[blogen]

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/6313/ro9z.jpg

[morski]

Gagauzia Turkic. The Budjak Bulgarians majority live in the Ukrainian part of Budjak:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Bugeac-etnic.png

The Gagauz and Bulgarians in the Budzhak came to Bessarabia at the same time from the same place - Eastern Bulgaria. The reason being the desire of emperial Russia to repopulate this territory, previously occupied by Tatars who immigrated to Ottoman Turkey after conquest, with Slavic speaking Orthodox people from the Balkans. Since the Bulgarians were basically bilingual in Bulgarian and Turkish at the time the Russian authorities failed to notice any difference between the Gagauz and them. And indeed, the Gagauz had the same folklore - dress, music(including songs sung in the Bulgarian language), holidays as their Bulgarian neighbours and the intermarriages are very frequent. Bottom line - the Gagauz are a Bulgarian ethnographic subgroup.

[blogen]

The Gagauz and Bulgarians in the Budzhak came to Bessarabia at the same time from the same place - Eastern Bulgaria. The reason being the desire of emperial Russia to repopulate this territory, previously occupied by Tatars who immigrated to Ottoman Turkey after conquest, with Slavic speaking Orthodox people from the Balkans. Since the Bulgarians were basically bilingual in Bulgarian and Turkish at the time the Russian authorities failed to notice any difference between the Gagauz and them. And indeed, the Gagauz had the same folklore - dress, music(including songs sung in the Bulgarian language), holidays as their Bulgarian neighbours and the intermarriages are very frequent. Bottom line - the Gagauz are a Bulgarian ethnographic subgroup.

The Gagauz peoples are a Turkic ethnographic group. Yes, they have Bulgarian influence, but they are not Bulgarians and they were never Bulgarians.

[morski]

The Gagauz peoples are a Turkic ethnographic group. Yes, they have Bulgarian influence, but they are not Bulgarians and they were never Bulgarians.

They call themselves asli Bulgar.

[blogen]

They call themselves asli Bulgar.

The asli Bulgar was the name of the poor Bulgarian peasants in the Balkan. The Gagaus peoples call himself "blue Oguz". This is the meaning of their name.

[morski]

The asli Bulgar was the name of the poor Bulgarian peasants in the Balkan. The Gagaus peoples call himself "blue Oguz". This is the meaning of their name.


In 19th century, before their migration to Bessarabia, the Gagauzes from the Bulgarian lands (then in Ottoman Turkey) considered themselves Bulgarians. Ethnological research suggest that "Gagauz" was a linguistic distinction and not ethnic. Gagauzes to that time called themselves "Hasli Bulgar" (True Bulgars) or "Eski Bulgar" (Old Bulgars) and considered the term "Gagauz" applied to them by the Slavic-speaking Bulgarians (who they called "toukan") demeaning


In connection with the etymological problem of the ethnonym Gagauz, one should always keep in mind that this very name was first mentioned in written sources in the eighteenth century (Radova 1995, p. 268). Before that, they were recognized in Moldova as Turkish-speaking Bulgarians (Turkish population). The term Gagauz probably was initially not a self-designation but rather as an exonim, ide est a name given by neighboring ethnic groups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gagauz_people

The Gagauz are Bulgarians, end of story.

[blogen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gagauz_people
The Gagauz are Bulgarians, end of story.

Bulgarian theories... :D

[Vlach]

There is no difference between an Moldovan and Romanian. Moldavia was integral in the role of unification of Romania back in 1859 I think. Stop spreading bullshit. You're not even romanian, nor moldovian to judge.

I don't know why most hungarians in this forum are such utter retards

He know more than me, even he never was in Moldavia and he is not a moldavian :picard2:


Bulgarian theories...

But your retarded theories what say, the moldavians are not the same with romanians indeed they have the same languge,religion,folk music,folk customs and history with W Moldavia/Wallachia/Romania. :picard2:

[blogen]

But your retarded theories what say, the moldavians are not the same with romanians indeed they have the same languge,religion,folk music,folk customs and history with W Moldavia/Wallachia/Romania. :picard2:

Moldova and Wallachia were different states with different history, different culture, architecture and even folk costumes! The Moldovan culture close to the Rusyn, Ukrainian culture, but the Wallachian to the Balkan.

[Vlach]

Moldova and Wallachia were different states with different history, different culture, architecture and even folk costumes! The Moldovan culture close to the Rusyn, Ukrainian culture, but the Wallachian to the Balkan.

Jesus Christ ! DUDE I'm a fucking moldavian, do you tell me what I am?
There's are different folk costumes and betwen wallachians from Dambovita and wallachians from Buzau, but they mostly have "opinci" and 'IE romaneasc"
http://www.romanianmuseum.com/Romania/BuzauOm.jpg

http://www.romanianmuseum.com/Romania/DambovitaOm.jpg

And the music is mostly the same dude, you are pathetic.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z6WXpgGZyY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3MgufGpbqs&list=PLGay-JFXuTbh8ZHMS7SbArXzQTOlL1qMi

Tell me the differences :picard1:

[Windischer]

do you tell me what I am?

an idiot

[Vlach]

an idiot

HAHA you are so funny, cyka

[Windischer]

suka is feminine
using a feminine swearing on a masculine target is gramatically incorrect :ranger:

[Szegedist]

Verchar vs the Vlach :laugh:

[Windischer]

no sheep = no vlach

[Vlach]

suka is feminine
using a feminine swearing on a masculine target is gramatically incorrect :ranger:

I dont learn shitty languages :rolleyes:

[Szegedist]

no sheep = no vlach

The sheep were "assimilated" into the Romanians

[morski]

suka is feminine
using a feminine swearing on a masculine target is gramatically incorrect :ranger:

Don't be a suchka now.:p

[Windischer]

I dont learn shitty languages :rolleyes:

but you use shitty words incorrectly

[Vlach]

but you use shitty words incorrectly

In DOTA 2 russians use ths shitty word always. ;)

[SKYNET]

HAHA you are so funny, cyka




pizda is a most appropriate word, isn't it? :D

[Szegedist]

pizda is a most appropriate word, isn't it? :D

For you, it certainly is, Westerniu Boyescu.

[Vlach]

pizda is a most appropriate word, isn't it? :D

Curva=cyka


For you, it certainly is, Westerniu Boyescu.

Your romanian name should be GRASanescu :rolleyes:

[SKYNET]

For you, it certainly is, Westerniu Boyescu.




kurva, pizda, suka xD

[Zaycev]

must be sickening when some dirty hungarian nationalists tries to tell you what you're.

[BeerBaron]

linguist similarities doesnt mean they should be joining the russian federation, the federation is ran by oligarchs and a former kgb agent who helped destroy and subjugate their countries under the soviet union

losing the countries would also be very damaging to the west at a time when everything is going to asia

[Szegedist]

must be sickening when some dirty hungarian nationalists tries to tell you what you're.

What about a dirty gypsy, such as yourself, trying to tell Moldavians who they are?

[Vlach]

What about a dirty gypsy, such as yourself, trying to tell Moldavians who they are?

He said something about moldavians? FATSO

[Szegedist]

He said something about moldavians? FATSO

Sa-mi bagi mana-n cur si sa-mi faci laba la cacat.

And if you want to go to personal insults (even though you never saw me), post a pic in members pic thread.

[Vlach]

Sa-mi bagi mana-n cur si sa-mi faci laba la cacat.

And if you want to go to personal insults (even though you never saw me), post a pic in members pic thread.

Yesterday you started to insult my family you stupid bitch, you will regret :thumb001:

[Szegedist]

Yesterday you started to insult my family you stupid bitch, you will regret :thumb001:

I did not insult your family, I repeated what you said yourself about your roots, from Moldavia, transplanted into Banat. Is Moldavian an insult to you? :rolleyes:

[SKYNET]

Take a break, muchachos. We have a lot of time yet. :coffee:

[HellLander87]

Sa-mi bagi mana-n cur si sa-mi faci laba la cacat.


Apart from other issues you have a shit related perversion too...Interesting case.

[Szegedist]

Apart from other issues you have a shit related perversion too...Interesting case.
Hello my Greek friend, long time no see.
Nah, its just a figure of speech, that sentence is one of Romanias most infamous insults.

[blogen]

Jesus Christ ! DUDE I'm a fucking moldavian, do you tell me what I am?

So you are a Moldavian or a Moldavian Romanian, or Romanian Moldavian or a Moldavian origin Romanian. Lot of identity exists.


There's are different folk costumes and betwen wallachians from Dambovita and wallachians from Buzau, but they mostly have "opinci" and 'IE romaneasc"

Moldovans:
http://www.romaniandolls.com/RomanianDolls/88TulghesCiuc/88TulghesCostume.jpg

Hutsuls:
http://www.ethnicdancetheatre.com/assets/images/costumes/hutsul.jpg


And the music is mostly the same dude, you are pathetic.
Tell me the differences :picard1:

I do not wrote about the music.

[Vlach]

So you are a Moldavian or a Moldavian Romanian, or Romanian Moldavian or a Moldavian origin Romanian. Lot of identity exists.



Moldovans:
http://www.romaniandolls.com/RomanianDolls/88TulghesCiuc/88TulghesCostume.jpg

Hutsuls:
http://www.ethnicdancetheatre.com/assets/images/costumes/hutsul.jpg



I do not wrote about the music.
The moldavians costumes looks more like these :rolleyes:
http://www.romanianmuseum.com/Romania/OltOmVara.jpg
http://www.romanianmuseum.com/Romania/IlfovFata.jpg


Sa-mi bagi mana-n cur si sa-mi faci laba la cacat.

I never heard this insult. LOL
Masturbate the shit? WTF dude?

[Graham]

You shouldn't put one question in the title, then have it the other way round in the poll. It mucks the voting up.

Edit: I see you already noticed. :P

[alexbass]

Sa-mi bagi mana-n cur si sa-mi faci laba la cacat.

And if you want to go to personal insults (even though you never saw me), post a pic in members pic thread.

What's up GRASmegfasz? I missed you

[Szegedist]

What's up GRASmegfasz? I missed you
The tiganescu came back, begging me to defecate on him. Interesting.

[alexbass]

The tiganescu came back, begging me to defecate on him. Interesting.

tiganescu:)) es ha mondom hogy magyar vagyok?

[alexbass]

szoltlan maratal , te kover ember ?

[Shkembe Chorba]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdX51bSU5yg

[morski]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdX51bSU5yg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjFcd9pEiRo

[RussiaPrussia]

nope, they are fake states without identity, they could easily be obsobered by great russia

[Baluarte]

nope, they are fake states without identity, they could easily be obsobered by great russia

A good border distribution would give Belarus, Eastern and Central Ukraine (along with Crimea) to Russia/ West Ukraine and all the former Polish territories (absorbed by the Soviet Union due to the Molotov Ribbentrop pact) to Poland or Poland-Lithuania, and maybe consider returning some parts of Western Poland to Germany.

[Longbowman]

The only opinions that matters are those of the Ukrainians and Belarusians. Your collective assessments of how 'independent their culture' is is irrelevant. Ireland might as well be reabsorbed into the UK.

[RussiaPrussia]

The only opinions that matters are those of the Ukrainians and Belarusians. Your collective assessments of how 'independent their culture' is is irrelevant. Ireland might as well be reabsorbed into the UK.

so let me see

Ukraine

orthodox christianity

east slavic language



ireland

catholic

normally they should speak celtic but you did your job very well after all

yeah very similar example.

[Longbowman]

so let me see

Ukraine

orthodox christianity

east slavic language



ireland

catholic

normally they should speak celtic but you did your job very well after all

yeah very similar example.

Irish*

Don't like that example? Fine, Portugal should be part of Spain (western Romance language, Catholic) as should Andorra, France and Italy.

[Sikeliot]

Don't like that example? Fine, Portugal should be part of Spain (western Romance language, Catholic) as should Andorra, France and Italy.

No way. I may not like a fully unified Italy but I'd take it over Spanish colonialism any day.

[Longbowman]

No way. I may not like a fully unified Italy but I'd take it over Spanish colonialism any day.

I agree, I'm attacking his warped logic, not suggesting Spanish hegemony.

[Baluarte]

Ukraine has no political power or role other than playing buffer like State between the pro US bloc (EU) and Russia. A quick occupation will restore the borders to the natural state that existed before :laugh:

[Longbowman]

Ukraine has no political power or role other than playing buffer like State between the pro US bloc (EU) and Russia. A quick occupation will restore the borders to the natural state that existed before :laugh:

Over our cold, dead bodies.

Seriously, where do you even come from?

[Szegedist]

Ukraine has no political power or role other than playing buffer like State between the pro US bloc (EU) and Russia. A quick occupation will restore the borders to the natural state that existed before :laugh:
natural state... you mean 1945-1990s?

[Sikeliot]

I agree, I'm attacking his warped logic, not suggesting Spanish hegemony.

Ok, good. I was going to say, your comment had the potential to offend. :lol:

[Longbowman]

natural state... you mean 1945-1990s?

This is also an excellent point. The only time all Ukraine has pertained to a Russian-dominated entity was the USSR. Before WWI half of it was Austrian, including my family's part. Shall we return things to the 'natural' Communist boundaries, or the 'natural' modern early Europe Habsburg boundaries?

[Baluarte]

natural state... you mean 1945-1990s?

Not particularly, no.

Ukraine never existed as a political separate entity before.

[Longbowman]

Not particularly, no.

Ukraine never existed as a political separate entity before.

Then, what do you mean? Because like I said, before the USSR, it was briefly independent, then partitioned between Russia and Austria.

This type of thinking is typical of Russian nationalists who hate Communism but loved the power they wielded with it. You can't have it both ways.

[Szegedist]

the 'natural' modern early Europe Habsburg boundaries?

Works for me.

[Szegedist]

One must be careful to not let their dislike of the West lead them on the path of Soviet apologism.

[Baluarte]

Works for me.

Yes, that one sounds ok. Prior to Polish partitions borders were pretty well set.

[Corvus]

This is also an excellent point. The only time all Ukraine has pertained to a Russian-dominated entity was the USSR. Before WWI half of it was Austrian, including my family's part. Shall we return things to the 'natural' Communist boundaries, or the 'natural' modern early Europe Habsburg boundaries?

So I assume your ancestors have been Jews from Galicia. From Lemberg or Czernowitz?

[Baluarte]

So I assume your ancestors have been Jews from Galicia. From Lemberg or Czernowitz?

That would make him the best combination in the world: English + Galician Jew :laugh:

[Zmey Gorynych]

Over our cold, dead bodies.

Seriously, where do you even come from?
He comes from the club of Putin's cock worshippers :)

[Longbowman]

Works for me.

My dad would love this. His family were what you might call 'Empire loyalists.'


So I assume your ancestors have been Jews from Galicia. From Lemberg or Czernowitz?

Good guess, and not a million miles off, but not exactly, although one of my great-grandparents' family owned a very large farm near Lemberg/Lvov/Lviv. My great grandfather was from Ivano-Frankivsk raion, though. I had to look up Czernowitz. My family from the area included Jews, certainly. I can't say with precision if any came from Czernowitz or the area because records are poor - I only even know the names of two great grandparents on that side of my family, which is pretty weak.

[Corvus]

My dad would love this. His family were what you might call 'Empire loyalists.'



Good guess, and not a million miles off, but not exactly, although one of my great-grandparents' family owned a very large farm near Lemberg/Lvov/Lviv. My great grandfather was from Ivano-Frankivsk raion, though. I had to look up Czernowitz. My family from the area included Jews, certainly. I can't say with precision if any came from Czernowitz or the area because records are poor - I only even know the names of two great grandparents on that side of my family, which is pretty weak.

Thanks for the elaboration. Czernowitz is located in Bukovina, not Galicia, but still today`s Ukraine.
My mistake http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernivtsi

[Szegedist]

My dad would love this. His family were what you might call 'Empire loyalists.'
.

Not surprising, given that many Jews in k.u.k were loyal to the Emperor.

[Longbowman]

That would make him the best combination in the world: English + Galician Jew :laugh:

The best combination in the world is English with nothing else added, of course. Sadly I cannot deny my mixed heritage, though 'Galician Jew' is a more distant segment than others.

I'm just going to assume that as you're Catholic but worship the Russians, you're anti-American, your username is Spanish, you're...Cuban, right?

[Baluarte]

The best combination in the world is English with nothing else added, of course. Sadly I cannot deny my mixed heritage, though 'Galician Jew' is a more distant segment than others.

I'm just going to assume that as you're Catholic but worship the Russians, you're anti-American, your username is Spanish, you're...Cuban, right?

Yes, I'm Cuban :laugh:

[Longbowman]

Not surprising, given that many Jews in k.u.k were loyal to the Emperor.

My family was German-speaking, too. My dad likes to call himself Austrian but 'Ukrainian/German/Jewish' is probably a better ethnic appraisal of his DNA. On 23andme's global similarity map I place in Western Ukraine, which I don't understand, as my other ancestries should have drawn me further west and perhaps south, but there you go.

[Szegedist]

My family was German-speaking, too. My dad likes to call himself Austrian but 'Ukrainian/German/Jewish' is probably a better ethnic appraisal of his DNA. On 23andme's global similarity map I place in Western Ukraine, which I don't understand, as my other ancestries should have drawn me further west and perhaps south, but there you go.

Jews should use their global influence to bring back k.u.k.

[Longbowman]

Jews should use their global influence to bring back k.u.k.

I'll have a word with the Elders.

[Szegedist]

I'll have a word with the Elders.

Good, tell them at the next big meeting.

[justme]

Belarusians are actually Slavicised Lithuanians...lol!

[eeroli]

Better there. What do we benefit Ukrainians and belorysskies,,, nothing.

[Zaycev]

I think this vote is very wrong. I don't think any russian Nationalists or anyone else wants whole Ukraine back to Russia. The modern Ukraine we have now is a shizoid-like country with 2 different cultures in the country. The west never was (not even during Kievan-Rus time and Empire) but once (during Soviet Union) part of Russia. The west of Ukraine is highly influenced by polish people (Ukrainian Nationalists from the west are very anti-russian) and by other western european people (German (austrian), czech, hungarian etc.).

If it ever comes to the downfall of Ukraine, the (russian speaking) east of the country will become russian again (just how it should be. They're people of the RUS).
Ukraines greatest people regarded themselves ethnically russian. The most major cities in Ukraine are located in the east (Odessa, Dnipropetrowsk, Charkiw, Donezk) with Kyiv (the Capital of the old RUS) in the middle.

And regarding Belarus: I don't see how anyone can deny the fact Belarus is russian. I just don't see it. Maybe the west of Belorus is very influenced by the old lithuanian-polish crown but that's it.

[Hevo]

Belarusians are actually Slavicised Lithuanians...lol!

Nope they are not, where is Rugevit if you need him?

[Windischer]

zaycev is too drug-influenced, lol
more than me ;)

[Wild North]

I think it´s up to the Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians to decide, if they want to be united in a single federation.

[Longbowman]

I think it´s up to the Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians to decide, if they want to be united in a single federation.

Sadly there are quite a number of people here who are willing to believe that one has to 'merit' independence by being culturally distinct according to their own specifications. But of course, if Ukraine 'should' be part of Russia for that reason, then Ireland and Canada and Australian and New Zealand should definitely be part of the UK.

[arcticwolf]

zaycev is too drug-influenced, lol
more than me ;)

That is hard to believe.

[Shkembe Chorba]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/ff78b3ad42d7d0a2ecb98fdf5219c516/tumblr_n0shu8Xu3f1qz6f9yo1_500.jpg

And this is what is played on this piano:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo_-KoBiBG0

They replace this one:

http://www.nationalanthems.info/sun-44~1.jpg

:)

[Yaroslav]

Why would you make the title different from the poll question? I want Russia and Ukraine re-united, but this blunder made me vote yes. Not that I categorically oppose Ukraine's independence.

[DeaththeKid]

Why would you make the title different from the poll question? I want Russia and Ukraine re-united, but this blunder made me vote yes. Not that I categorically oppose Ukraine's independence.

Yeah I made a mistake sorry. I reversed the poll and the title by accident. I quickly realised and mentioned it in the thread but it has screwed up the poll. This thread is kind of screwed now so if someone wants they can make a new one with the same question but not a reversed poll :)

edit: actually since this is an important question maybe I'll make another poll to make amends
edit: everyone please use this thread instead http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?115239-Should-Ukraine-and-Belarus-be-part-of-the-Russian-Federation-(repaired-poll)

[Özgür Adam]

We never back in russian mordor. Fuck the all russian speaker baltids :thumb001:

[Ülev]

it's a trap!

thread tittle --> Should Ukraine and Belarus be part of the Russian Federation?
thread poll --> Are Ukraine and Belarus different enough from Russia to justify indepdence?

[Peterski]

it's a trap!

thread tittle --> Should Ukraine and Belarus be part of the Russian Federation?
thread poll --> Are Ukraine and Belarus different enough from Russia to justify indepdence?

Oh shit. I voted "No" as answer to the thread title.

[RenaRyuguu]

yes to sell Ukranian Canadian merch to Russians

[Satem]

No, but Belarus and Ukraine should unite into one country

[Peterski]

No, but Belarus and Ukraine should unite into one country

LOL why should they unite into one country? And what about Poland?

[Sche]

If you come to the east of Ukraine and then move to the south of Russia, you will not find differences, except for another flag. If you come to Polotsk without knowing it, you might think that this is Western Russia. Of course, Eastern Ukraine and Belarus practically do not differ from Russia. The Poles cannot understand this.

[Sche]

What would become completely bad for the Poles. Before Belarus was called the Moscow and Novgorod territories. Only later did this name spread to Eastern Belarus.

[Satem]

LOL why should they unite into one country? And what about Poland?

Why not? They both face the same problems, they have similar economic level, they have much in common. Poland doesn't need this kind of changes. We would still obtain cheap workers from there

[Dominator]

Yes

[Nurzat]

Ukraine and Belarus belong with Russia. of course, Russia should respect them and give them local autonomy and the right to use the local language to the extent locals wish.

[Ülev]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth_%281619%29_compared_with_t oday%27s_borders_PL.png/941px-Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth_%281619%29_compared_with_t oday%27s_borders_PL.png
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plik:Polish-Lithuanian_Commonwealth_(1619)_compared_with_today %27s_borders_PL.png

+ Moldova
https://www.rp.pl/Rzecz-o-historii/310109915-Kraina-hospodarow-Jak-Rzeczpospolita-walczyla-o-Moldawie.html

- a nightmare for Nurzat :laugh:

[PAGANE]

They will return again and become part of the Russian Federation. This will happen by the end of this decade

[Ülev]

^^ poor Ukrainians and Belarusians - sad prediction

[Nurzat]

They will return again and become part of the Russian Federation. This will happen by the end of this decade

it's time we join our Orthodox brothers. to keep local autonomy and language but to have a union with more culturally relevant nations to us than the Western ones

[brennus dux gallorum]

Belarus yes, Ukraine no

[Ülev]

no
https://www.france24.com/en/20191207-belarus-crowds-rally-against-closer-russia-ties

[Nurzat]

+ Romania


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1Q6DF8TmjM

[Aspirin]

Maybe Ukraine, Belarus is a different story, vast majority of Belarusians speak Russian today, not Belarusian.

[Ion Basescul]

Maybe Ukraine, Belarus is a different story, vast majority of Belarusians speak Russian today, not Belarusian.

So do people from Ireland and Britan, Austria and Germany, R. Moldova and Romania, etc.
That doesn't grant the bigger party the right to question the sovereignty of the smaller one.
It is up to the people to decide, ideally in a referendum that is declared valid only if the voter turnout is >= 2/3rds of the voting age population.

[Aspirin]

It is up to the people to decide, ideally in a referendum that is declared valid only if the voter turnout is >= 2/3rds of the voting age population.

I agree, but for some reason many in Eastern Europe avoid the referendum way. Moldova - Romania case is the best example.

[Ion Basescul]

I agree, but for some reason many in Eastern Europe avoid the referendum way. Moldova - Romania case is the best example.

Because right now in R. Moldova it won't pass firstly, but secondly I doubt that the political class in Romania wants us as another burden on their social system. Those from the political class in R. Moldova also don't want to lose their privileged access to the resources that enable them to steal. Simply using the hype (or fear) to rile up the voters in both countries is a good status quo for now in both R. Moldova and Romania.

[Arhat]

it's time we join our Orthodox brothers. to keep local autonomy and language but to have a union with more culturally relevant nations to us than the Western ones

It is just politics. Ukraine and Belarus are more Russian than many of the regions and republics of the modern day "Russian Federation". Better Ukraine or Belarus would be in Russia instead of Chechnya or Dagestan. But the russian government did many stupid things to piss off Ukrainians and ruined any integration processes in the long term. Also Russia as country with a mediocore and corrupt economy is not anymore attractive to young super-westernized Ukrainians and Belarusians who grew up with western culture and are aware of the much better economy in the West.