Are Austrians an Ethnicity of Their Own or Just a Regional Subset of Germans?

[Musso]

The age old debate returns. Are Austrians Germans, or do Austrians constitute their separate ethnic group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrians

Some arguments that Austrians are separate:

-Wide majority of Austrians see themselves as separate
-Austrians had their Independent Kingdom to the South, while Germans in the North were separate
- Following the founding of the nation-state German Empire in 1871 without Austria (Lesser Germany solution), and along with the events of World War II and Nazism, Austrians have developed their own distinct national identity and in the modern day do not consider themselves as "Germans".
-Austrians have more influence of Hungary/Balkans than Germans

Some arguments that Austrians are German
-During WWII many Austrians eagerly accepted being part of Hitler's Reich, were viewed as Germans
-Are very similar to Bavarians, though Bavarians are considered German
-Difference is mainly political, Austrians/Germans are the same ethnicity, just like Moldovans and Romanians

Make your arguments.

[Musso]

nobody?

[Corvus]

This thread already exists. It has 215 replies.

[Brighton]

Austrians were sometimes counted as part of Germans here in Chile

But also, Croats were counted as Austrian sometimes because they were part of their Empire.. so it was kind of confusing haha

[ioan assen]

I think they are Germans, but they are also with their specifics. I believe they are more mixed compared to Germans, because of the international character of the empire. In Vienna you can see that Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks etc. have all left their genetic mark.

[JeanBaMac]

I think Austrians are Germans, because ethnicity is the same, language is the same, and dialect is closely related to Bavarian.

[Wolf3000]

As a Austrian and Styrian, with one great grandfather in the SS Leibstandarte, and one other Great grandfather in the Wehrmacht Heer,
I say undoudebtly that Austrians are Germans. The history does not lie.

But whether we are Germans by nationality is another debate.
Today we are no longer this and maybe for good reasons.
Ethnicity should not always unite states.

[morski]

One nation in two states.

[Musso]

As a Austrian and Styrian, with one great grandfather in the SS Leibstandarte, and one other Great grandfather in the Wehrmacht Heer,
I say undoudebtly that Austrians are Germans. The history does not lie.

But whether we are Germans by nationality is another debate.
Today we are no longer this and maybe for good reasons.
Ethnicity should not always unite states.

But the interesting thing is that genetically, Austrians don't cluster in the same exact place as German. Because of some Slavic/Hungarian/Balkanic influences, Austrians cluster a bit differently. Politically Austria has been separate from Germany for centuries, except during Nazi Germany of course (though so was many parts of Europe). That being said, Austrians/Bavarians share many more similarities than either of them with North Germans. I think the main thing is that Austria has been politically separate from Germany and Germans for so much time and with that created over time a separate National Identity. Austrians don't view themselves as part of the German identity but part of the Austrian identity.

[Ctwentysevenj]

Yes Austrians are Germans.

[Breedingvariety]

Austria not being part of Germany is the biggest border anachronism in Europe.

[Musso]

Austria not being part of Germany is the biggest border anachronism in Europe.

Well, not really, Austria and Germany have historically been separate from each other politically as Austria stood as the Germanic Catholic power and Germany or Prussia as the Germanic Protestant power. Both with different spheres of influences - Austria with the Balkans, and Germany with Northern Europe.

[Ctwentysevenj]

Yes Austrians are Germans.

So are the South Tyrolese.

[Breedingvariety]

Well, not really, Austria and Germany have historically been separate from each other politically as Austria stood as the Germanic Catholic power and Germany or Prussia as the Germanic Protestant power. Both with different spheres of influences - Austria with the Balkans, and Germany with Northern Europe.
Not really. Austria used to be part of Holy Roman Empire and German Confederation like the rest of Germany.

Prussia is not synonymous with Germany. Prussia doesn't exist anymore anyway.

[The Lawspeaker]

So are the South Tyrolese.

And, in a way, so are we Dutch (and Flemish).

[Musso]

Not really. Austria used to be part of Holy Roman Empire and German Confederation like the rest of Germany.

Prussia is not synonymous with Germany. Prussia doesn't exist anymore anyway.

Yes but after the era of the Holy Roman Empire (which encompassed pretty much all of Central Europe, rather than just Germany and Austria), there was a split in power between Protestant Germans and Catholic Austrians part of the Hapsburg Monarchy. With the Austrian Empire and Austro-Hungarian Empire, a separate Austrian identity developed. For several centuries, this went on.

[Breedingvariety]

And, in a way, so are we Dutch (and Flemish).
The best possible country would be Greater Germany including Austria, Swiss Germans, The Netherlands and Flanders.

[The Lawspeaker]

The German peoples (there is not a single German people but several German peoples) would be, by far, the single biggest ethnic group in Europe with around 95 million Germans in Europe (in total). Imagine Flanders, the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland (particularly the German areas), the German-areas in Belgium and Denmark, the Elsass and Luxembourg being one single country. We would be the nr. 1 economic, cultural, scientific, political and military power in Europe.

[The Lawspeaker]

The best possible country would be Greater Germany including Austria, Swiss Germans, The Netherlands and Flanders.

You forget the German-speaking areas in Belgium, France, Denmark and Italy. And there are German-speaking minorities in Hungary, Russia and Romania.

[The Lawspeaker]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Banner_of_the_Holy_Roman_Emperor_with_haloes_%2814 00-1806%29.svg/600px-Banner_of_the_Holy_Roman_Emperor_with_haloes_%2814 00-1806%29.svg.png

Bring back the old flag and no one will be able to stop us.

[Breedingvariety]

Bring back the old flag and no one will be able to stop us.
True, such country would be unstoppable.

[The Lawspeaker]

True, such country would be unstoppable.

This is why we should actually do it. No Russian, American, Brit or Frenchman would dare to divide us and use us as muscle for their political and military adventures. We would be free at last.

[Neon Knight]

What % of Austrians would like to merge with Germany?

[The Lawspeaker]

What % of Austrians would like to merge with Germany?

Only one way to find out: referendum.

[Hochmeister]

The German peoples (there is not a single German people but several German peoples) would be, by far, the single biggest ethnic group in Europe with around 95 million Germans in Europe (in total). Imagine Flanders, the Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland (particularly the German areas), the German-areas in Belgium and Denmark, the Elsass and Luxembourg being one single country. We would be the nr. 1 economic, cultural, scientific, political and military power in Europe.

I always supported unity of Germany and Austria... But what a bitch you are, you are saying all around the forum that Russians and Ukrainians shouldn't be in one country since it's same what Hitler did, but here you are saying such a model would be cool for Germanic nations. :picard1: You are just a hypocrite.

And stop doing your thumb down attacks on me, it's against the forum rules.

[Neon Knight]

It seems there is no great call for it:

In late April 1945, a provisional Austrian government led by Karl Renner declared the country's regained independence. Austria's democratic constitution was reinstated, and later that year elections paved the way for a new federal government, with Leopold Figl as the Chancellor of Austria. The former Germany remained a territory controlled by the Allied Forces until 1949 when both the Federal Republic of Germany and the German Democratic Republic emerged as new German states.

Since the end of the Second World War there has been no serious effort to unite the two countries again, and the Austrian State Treaty forbids the union between the two countries. Indeed, no mainstream political party in either country officially advocates political union. One reason for this is Austria's constitutional commitment to neutrality was (and is) in contrast to West Germany's commitment to being an active member of NATO. Moreover, the mainstream view that has been established in Austria since World War II is that the Austrians have developed their own distinct national identity. Unlike earlier in the 20th century, in 1987 only 6 percent of Austrians identified themselves as "Germans". Today over 90 percent of Austrians see themselves as an independent nation.[clarification needed] Indeed, views that promote a stronger identification with Germany or reunification are often associated with the far right or even Neo-Nazism within Austria. However, economic and political ties between the two states have been strong and mostly amicable since the postwar period. Relations were further strengthened through Austria's accession to the European Union in 1995 and the establishment of the Eurozone (of which both states are founding members) in 1999.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria%E2%80%93Germany_relations#Postwar

[The Lawspeaker]

I always supported unity of Germany and Austria... But what a bitch you are, you are saying all around the forum that Russians and Ukrainians shouldn't be in one country since it's same what Hitler did, but here you are saying such a model would be cool for Germanic nations. :picard1: You are just a hypocrite.

And stop doing your thumb down attacks on me, it's against the forum rules.
Stupid remarks get "rewarded" with a thumbs down and you're doing the same thing. And, yes, the Ukranians don't want to be under Russki rule and I don't blame them. No one in the right mind would want to be under the Russki yoke and Ukranians are a clever people that know their history.

As for Greater Germany we have always been the most enlightened part of Europe, you the most backward.

[The Lawspeaker]

It seems there is no great call for it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria%E2%80%93Germany_relations#Postwar
A neutrality that was enforced upon them by the Russians as part of the "deal": they would withdraw and Austria would be neutral and never be allowed to rejoin Germany. They and the other allies merely sought to divide Germans forever in order to augment their own strength. In case of war German boys would die for them (both East and West Germans as well as Dutch, Luxembourgers and Flemish) while they would reap none of the benefits.

[TheForeigner]

I didn't know dutchmen consider themselves german and I thought you were dutch nationalist and very critical of past german imperialism,especially nazi era.

[Hochmeister]

Stupid remarks get "rewarded" with a thumbs down and you're doing the same thing.


I gave you a couple of thumbs downs in response for yours, but I usually don't feel buthurt because of one's opinion I would disagree with, that's why I don't thumb you down in most cases.


And, yes, the Ukranians don't want to be under Russki rule and I don't blame them.

Annexed part of Poland called Galicia with the city of Lemberg never wanted, that's why they are killing rsidents of East Ukraine and occupied Kiev. But you are very ignorant about Ukraine, if you think that Galicia=Ukraine. :D
I doubt if some Czechs would like Germany and Austria to unite, same stupidity to except such expectatation from Galicians, who are mostly Slavasized Romanians and Ukrainified Poles, since Turks killed almost all native people there (the rest escaped to Siberia).


No one in the right mind would want to be under the Russki yoke and Ukranians are a clever people that know their history.


But you don't know their history so you'd better STFU to avoid shame.


you the most backward.

Rus was richer than Franks, and third in Europe after Rome and Constantinople in early medieval days.
And Tallinn (from where my Baltic German ancestry comes from) had highest buildings in the world for 500 years, it was the New York of medieval Europe. :D

[The Lawspeaker]

I didn't know dutchmen consider themselves german and I thought you were dutch nationalist and very critical of past german imperialism,especially nazi era.

Define imperialism. And Nazi Germany has nothing to do with the Holy Roman Empire.

[The Lawspeaker]

I gave you a couple of thumbs downs in response for yours, but I usually don't feel buthurt because of one's opinion I would disagree with, that's why I don't thumb you down in most cases.



Annexed part of Poland called Galicia with the city of Lemberg never wanted, that's why they are killing rsidents of East Ukraine and occupied Kiev. But you are very ignorant about Ukraine, if you think that Galicia=Ukraine. :D
I doubt if some Czechs would like Germany and Austria to unite, same stupidity to except such expectatation from Galicians, who are mostly Slavasized Romanians and Ukrainified Poles, since Turks killed almost all native people there (the rest escaped to Siberia).



But you don't know their history so you'd better STFU.



Rus was richer than Franks, and third in Europe after Rome and Constantinople in early medieval days.
And Tallinn (from where my Baltic German ancestry comes from) had highest buildings in the world for 500 years, it was the New York of medieval Europe. :D
Rus rich ? Maybe that's what they claim in Russian history books but Russia is backward, has always been backward and will always be backward. I do know Ukranian history and that the only thing Russians ever did is starve them, murder them and rape them. That's the only thing Russians ever did anyway. That's their entire history. Apart from getting drunk on cheap vodka.

And why should we care about what the Czechs think about German reunification or anyone else for that matter ? It's our affair.

[Musso]

What % of Austrians would like to merge with Germany?


Only one way to find out: referendum.

"In 1987 only 6 percent of Austrians identified themselves as "Germans". I'd imagine that percentage is much lower today.

also interesting:

"Contemporary Austrians express pride in having Celtic heritage and Austria possesses one of the largest collections of Celtic artifacts in Europe."

[The Lawspeaker]

"In 1987 only 6 percent of Austrians identified themselves as "Germans". I'd imagine that percentage is much lower today.

also interesting:

"Contemporary Austrians express pride in having Celtic heritage and Austria possesses one of the largest collections of Celtic artifacts in Europe."
What's the source ? It's funny but the idea of uniting the Netherlands and Germany has been talked about in the press a couple of times and the reactions were surprisingly positive.

[Visitor_22]

I noticed a lot of austrians have red hair.


Stereotypical "german" Ralf Muller

http://hotmag.me/colpi/files/2012/01/Ralph_Moeller.jpg

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60/jake_foxrabinovitz/ralf_moeller/galleries/ralf_moeller_trois_quart.jpg

http://www.ralfmoeller.com/uploads/pics/ralf_moeller_info_43.jpg

[TheForeigner]

I am not against all imperialism,but I didn't think dutch are just germans and thought you prefer Greater Netherlands with Flemish areas of Belgium and even of France around Dunkirk included.

[Roy]

They speak German and consider themselves mainly German.

[The Lawspeaker]

Dating back to 1996:

http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2844/Archief/archief/article/detail/417899/1996/08/24/Bundesland-Nassau-heeft-mooie-perspectieven.dhtml


Recent:

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article110905029/Die-Hollaender-sollen-mehr-Deutsch-reden.html


Recent (certain Dutch troops are placed under German command):

http://www.dagelijksestandaard.nl/2013/06/nederlandse-troepen-komen-onder-duits-bevel

Recent:

http://www.mt.nl/1/75443/home/nederland-beter-af-als-duitse-provincie.html

[The Lawspeaker]

I am not against all imperialism,but I didn't think dutch are just germans and thought you prefer Greater Netherlands with Flemish areas of Belgium and even of France around Dunkirk included.

Why not do both ? The Greater Netherlands as a Bundesland of Germany ?

[Visitor_22]

Well. That's kinda surprise to me when dutch talk about "Greater Germania".

Never thought that dutch can "act" like that! ;)

[Roy]

The best possible country would be Greater Germany including Austria, Swiss Germans, The Netherlands and Flanders.

It would be dangerous for Europe, it's not gonna happen.

[Visitor_22]

It would be dangerous for Europe, it's not gonna happen.


LOL.

[Arend]

But the interesting thing is that genetically, Austrians don't cluster in the same exact place as German. Because of some Slavic/Hungarian/Balkanic influences, Austrians cluster a bit differently. Meanwhile, outside of Anthro forums (A place some might know as the real world) nobody cares about Genetic clusters or what population is genetically “closer” to each other and all that other nonsense that you read here in every second thread.

Politically Austria has been separate from Germany for centuries “Politically” only since 1866 if you disregard the time between 1938 and 1945. If it wasn’t for the Western Allies and their “right of nations to self-determination”, which applied to almost everyone except for Germans and Hungarians, Austria would have joined the German Empire in 1919 anyway.

except during Nazi Germany of course (though so was many parts of Europe). So you think that Austria had the same status as Northern France for example? It wasn’t occupied by Germany.

I think the main thing is that Austria has been politically separate from Germany and Germans for so much time and with that created over time a separate National Identity. Over time? Certainly not. World War 2 happened and it was politically opportune to be Austrian rather than German.

there was a split in power between Protestant Germans and Catholic Austrians part of the Hapsburg Monarchy German Empire, 1900:
Protestants: 35,231,104
Roman Catholic: 20,321,441

And Tallinn (from where my Baltic German ancestry comes from) had highest buildings in the world for 500 years, it was the New York of medieval Europe. :DEast-Asian-High-IQ-Skyscraper-building-Master race at it again:

http://www.zacktravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Moscow0.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

Well. That's kinda surprise to me when dutch talk about "Greater Germania".

Never thought that dutch can "act" like that! ;)

No. It's common sense: economically speaking we already are a part of Germany and for many Dutch the border has become a hurdle. A tax hurdle, a legal hurdle and just overall something that more and more people feel we should get rid off. The Kleinstaaterei has become a burden. And nothing more than that. That doesn't mean we join Germany outright but we might just as well because our own government is actually constantly creating new hurdles for business, wrecking the education system, tearing down the welfare state so all those beautiful things that made us Dutch we now see in Germany while we ourselves are losing it.

There are millions of Dutch that go shopping in Germany and some actually move there because it's cheaper. So what this government give us what a German federal government can't much more effectively ?

[Roy]

LOL.

They would have too much power.

[The Lawspeaker]

They would have too much power.

Yes.. and ?

[LightHouse89]

As a Austrian and Styrian, with one great grandfather in the SS Leibstandarte, and one other Great grandfather in the Wehrmacht Heer,
I say undoudebtly that Austrians are Germans. The history does not lie.

But whether we are Germans by nationality is another debate.
Today we are no longer this and maybe for good reasons.
Ethnicity should not always unite states.

To me they are the same....even swiss germans to me are germans.

[LightHouse89]

No. It's common sense: economically speaking we already are a part of Germany and for many Dutch the border has become a hurdle. A tax hurdle, a legal hurdle and just overall something that more and more people feel we should get rid off. That doesn't mean we join Germany outright but we might just as well because our own government is actually constantly creating new hurdles for business, wrecking the education system, tearing down the welfare state so all those beautiful things that made us Dutch we now see in Germany while we ourselves are losing it.

There are millions of Dutch that go shopping in Germany and some actually move there because it's cheaper. So what this government give us what a German federal government can't much more effectively ?

I just wish Germany and Netherlands would out law prostitution. Other than that I admire pan Germanism.

[The Lawspeaker]

I just wish Germany and Netherlands would out law prostitution. Other than that I admire pan Germanism.

And drive it underground ? No thank you. As if we don't have enough nonsense here because of your stupid War on Drugs.

[Roy]

Yes.. and ?

I am not gonna discuss it with Germanophile :rolleyes:


I don't want my country to get attacked or them having too much influence on us. You can get second Russia-Ukraine clash. Balance of Power is needed.

[TheForeigner]

So you basically feel dutch and flemish are germans. How strong were these ideas during 19th and 20th centuries or today? Maybe it's shame it didn't happen earlier, this unity. Holland is too liberal in some bad ways maybe(as well as other positive ways) and Germany still is I think slightly more conservative

[The Lawspeaker]

So you basically feel dutch and flemish are germans. How strong were these ideas during 19th and 20th centuries or today? Maybe it's shame it didn't happen earlier, this unity. Holland is too liberal in some bad ways maybe(as well as other positive ways) and Germany still is I think slightly more conservative

We need to make a distinction in the word "German". What is a German ? A Bavarian is a different creature than someone from Kiel. So we are Germans ( a German people). And conservatism ? I think that both German cultures (the Netherlands and Germany) are conservative in their own way but you can fight something and waste on it or you can decide not to bother as long as it doesn't bother you. Both of us are, in that field, pragmatic, while the Bavarian would be more of the "crusade"-kind.

[The Lawspeaker]

I am not gonna discuss it with Germanophile :rolleyes:


I don't want my country to get attacked or them having too much influence on us. You can get second Russia-Ukraine clash. Balance of Power is needed.

Why would we attack Poland ? Explain ?

[Musso]

Meanwhile, outside of Anthro forums (A place some might know as the real world) nobody cares about Genetic clusters or what population is genetically “closer” to each other and all that other nonsense that you read here in every second thread.
“Politically” only since 1866 if you disregard the time between 1938 and 1945. If it wasn’t for the Western Allies and their “right of nations to self-determination”, which applied to almost everyone except for Germans and Hungarians, Austria would have joined the German Empire in 1919 anyway.
So you think that Austria had the same status as Northern France for example? It wasn’t occupied by Germany.
Over time? Certainly not. World War 2 happened and it was politically opportune to be Austrian rather than German.
German Empire, 1900:
Protestants: 35,231,104
Roman Catholic: 20,321,441
East-Asian-High-IQ-Skyscraper-building-Master race at it again:

http://www.zacktravel.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Moscow0.jpg

-Still Austria for a good amount of time has been politically separate from Germany: Austrian Empire, Austro-Hungarian Empire, Austrian Republics, even during the Holy Roman Empire here exited the Archduchy of Austria and Austria was dominated by the Hapsburgs for quite sometime. So it's not like Austria was a region of Germany for a long time and just recently it became independent. There more of a history of independence.

-I'm just saying that many parts of Europe were part of Nazi Germany, Austrians accepted their inclusion into Germany.

-Catholics existed in the German Empires because of the South. However the leadership/leanings of them was Protestant as opposed to the leadership in the Austrian Empires.

[Peyrol]

They are germans, that's obvious.... even if historically many of them were used to speak rhaeto-romance languages.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Rhaeto-Romance_languages_now_and_1200_years_ago..png

[The Lawspeaker]

Attacking Poland ? What good would it bring us ? We'd have some unruly peasants, car thieves and plumbers to hold down with an occupation force ? Why on earth would we want that ? In fact - it would harm our own economy since we import grain from Poland as well. Yes.. we still do. So why the fuck would we want to invade Poland ?

[LightHouse89]

And drive it underground ? No thank you. As if we don't have enough nonsense here because of your stupid War on Drugs.

ban it the way us americans ban it......we get rid of prostitution in a unique way and make it out right illegal here. I am glad. The onyl reason prostitution here is in the big city is because of immigrants and Niggers mostly. The vermin bring their vermin ways with them here.

[The Lawspeaker]

ban it the way us americans ban it......we get rid of prostitution in a unique way and make it out right illegal here. I am glad. The onyl reason prostitution here is in the big city is because of immigrants and Niggers mostly. The vermin bring their vermin ways with them here.

Name me one single American policy that has ever been effective. One. America is the Western country with the highest STD-rate, the highest teenage pregnancy rate, the highest abortion rate, the highest murder rate, the highest incarceration rate, the highest rate of imprisonment. If anything, America is a role model for us on how NOT to do it.

[LightHouse89]

We need to make a distinction in the word "German". What is a German ? A Bavarian is a different creature than someone from Kiel. So we are Germans ( a German people). And conservatism ? I think that both German cultures (the Netherlands and Germany) are conservative in their own way but you can fight something and waste on it or you can decide not to bother as long as it doesn't bother you. Both of us are, in that field, pragmatic, while the Bavarian would be more of the "crusade"-kind.

Pan-Germanism..... To me I would not say the Dutch are Germans but instead a Germanic people..... the same with Norwegians, Swedes, Icelanders, English people etc..... I dont think England should be apart of a contintental Germanic Union.

[The Lawspeaker]

Pan-Germanism..... To me I would not say the Dutch are Germans but instead a Germanic people..... the same with Norwegians, Swedes, Icelanders, English people etc..... I dont think England should be apart of a contintental Germanic Union.

We are not speaking about a Pan-Germanic Union here but a Greater Germany only for German peoples. Try to keep the two separate, thank you.

[LightHouse89]

Name me one single American policy that has ever been effective. One. America is the Western country with the highest STD-rate, the highest teenage pregnancy rate, the highest abortion rate, the highest murder rate, the highest incarceration rate, the highest rate of imprisonment. If anything, America is a role model for us on how NOT to do it.

Liberals are to blame for all of it. They brought that shit here and we did not need it. They repealled the racial act of 1924.....what the hell did they or you expect? ofcourse this country has all sorts of diseases.....it is the most travelled to part of the world and you tell me the south and north east breaking away from the country is bad? well now you know why we want to break away! we are sick of this fake government. The liberals like JFK brought down america....and the man who shot him was a hero! :thumb001:

[LightHouse89]

We are not speaking about a Pan-Germanic Union here but a Greater Germany only for German peoples. Try to keep the two separate, thank you.

I was confused but Dutch people are not Germans. You are begining to have me confused hahahaha......I would be glaf if england was not apart of it because their liberalism is the worst in the English speaking world [right up there with America if you ask me].

[The Lawspeaker]

Liberals are to blame for all of it. They brought that shit here and we did not need it. They repealled the racial act of 1924.....what the hell did they or you expect? ofcourse this country has all sorts of diseases.....it is the most travelled to part of the world and you tell me the south and north east breaking away from the country is bad? well now you know why we want to break away! we are sick of this fake government. The liberals like JFK brought down america....and the man who shot him was a hero! :thumb001:

Bullshit. There is nothing that we can learn from you. Nothing. So, please, keep your American ideas out of this. There is a big world outside the U.S and for us here in the Old World you people are perfectly irrelevant. Please understand this. We. Don't. Care.

[The Lawspeaker]

I was confused but Dutch people are not Germans. You are begining to have me confused hahahaha......I would be glaf if england was not apart of it because their liberalism is the worst in the English speaking world [right up there with America if you ask me].

I don't think you know what liberalism means. You might want to look up the European definition first and look up how things actually work here and kindly stop crapping over the thread.

[LightHouse89]

I don't think you know what liberalism means. You might want to look up the European definition first and look up how things actually work here and kindly stop crapping over the thread.

Here our definition is much different.....maybe I should say Neo-Liberalism....there is a Classical Liberalism which the founding fathers were classical Liberals I would say. I use to term in reference to the modern leftist groups in the west in general. I am glad my country is not nearly as fucked up as western europe..... I couldnt imagine being some domesticated western European.

[The Lawspeaker]

Here our definition is much different.....maybe I should say Neo-Liberalism....there is a Classical Liberalism which the founding fathers were classical Liberals I would say. I use to term in reference to the modern leftist groups in the west in general. I am glad my country is not nearly as fucked up as western europe..... I couldnt imagine being some domesticated western European.

Frankly. Why should people in Europe give a flying fuck about the American definition ? Why should we give a flying fuck about how Americans feel ?

[LightHouse89]

Bullshit. There is nothing that we can learn from you. Nothing. So, please, keep your American ideas out of this. There is a big world outside the U.S and for us here in the Old World you people are perfectly irrelevant. Please understand this. We. Don't. Care.

You thumbed me down the other day for supporting Confederatism in America and calling me a traitor....if you truely did not care then you would have not done that...... I think the only reason we are of any use to western Europe [or used for that matter] is for our military.....this is partially why we are tired of being your lackeys and considered 'colonials' that do their master's biding.....we fought for independence and won so we are no one's bitchez. :mad:

[LightHouse89]

I am not gonna discuss it with Germanophile :rolleyes:


I don't want my country to get attacked or them having too much influence on us. You can get second Russia-Ukraine clash. Balance of Power is needed.

best advice dont make the same mistakes you made in world war 2.....:p

[The Lawspeaker]

You thumbed me down the other day for supporting Confederatism in America and calling me a traitor....if you truely did not care then you would have not done that...... I think the only reason we are of any use to western Europe [or used for that matter] is for our military.....this is partially why we are tired of being your lackeys and considered 'colonials' that do their master's biding.....we fought for independence and won so we are no one's bitchez. :mad:

We don't give a fuck about your petty provincial nonsense, o.k ? Do. You. Understand ? This is about German issues. European issues. And we don't give a fuck about you. Your ideas are irrelevant, your cultural and political baggage is irrelevant because it doesn't apply to us. America is not the centre of the fucking universe. Deal with it.

[XUTERO]

This is why we should actually do it. No Russian, American, Brit or Frenchman would dare to divide us and use us as muscle for their political and military adventures. We would be free at last.

T-T Your spirit is so strong!!! Yes we should definitely do it! Bring back the Autro-Hungarian Nation as well!! Freedom awaits!!!
Bring back Prussia!!! Long live Europe!!!

[Arend]

Austrian Empire,1815–1866, part of the German Confederation


Austro-Hungarian Empire1867–1918, many Austrians were not exactly satisfied with their current situation and wanted to join the German Empire, even though it was dominated by Prussia. And how was a famous K.u.K. regiment called for example? K.u.k. Niederösterreichisches Infanterie-Regiment Hoch- und Deutschmeister Nr. 4


Austrian Republics,As if I have said before: They wanted to join the German Empire. They even wanted to call their country "Deutschösterreich". Their (un)offical hymn was "Deutschösterreich, du herrliches Land"


even during the Holy Roman Empire here exited the Archduchy of Austria and Austria was dominated by the Hapsburgs for quite sometime.


So it's not like Austria was a region of Germany for a long time and just recently it became independent. There more of a history of independence. I don’t think that you have any idea how the Holy Roman Empire worked


I'm just saying that many parts of Europe were part of Nazi Germany, Austrians accepted their inclusion into Germany. What you were trying to do was to relativize that Austria was part of Germany.


Catholics existed in the German Empires because of the South. However the leadership/leanings of them was Protestant as opposed to the leadership in the Austrian Empires.Please, tell me more about my own damn country! Surely everyone in the "South" is Catholic while everyone in the "North" is Protestant. There are absolutely no Protestants in Wüttenberg or Catholics in the Emsland

[The Lawspeaker]

T-T Your spirit is so strong!!! Yes we should definitely do it! Bring back the Autro-Hungarian Nation as well!! Freedom awaits!!!

If they would want that. They would be better off within a Greater Germany though. Preferably if we could unite the Houses of Hollenzollern, van Oranje-Nassau and Habsburg.

[Hochmeister]

East-Asian-High-IQ-Skyscraper-building-Master race at it again:


[Karl mode on]
You are idiot. The St Olaf's Church in Tallinn was considered to be the highest building in the world up to construction of Eiffel Tower in 1889.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/St_Olaf%27s_church%2C_Tallinn%2C_July_2008.jpg/400px-St_Olaf%27s_church%2C_Tallinn%2C_July_2008.jpg

[Karl mode off/]

[LightHouse89]

Frankly. Why should people in Europe give a flying fuck about the American definition ? Why should we give a flying fuck about how Americans feel ?

As I said earlier I think we should leave you to your own devices...... we could put those troops in europe on our borders to stop our own potential genocide here.

[The Lawspeaker]

As I said earlier I think we should leave you to your own devices...... we could put those troops in europe on our borders to stop our own potential genocide here.

Go ahead. That gives us the chance to rebuild our own forces that we have spent fighting for you in Afghanistan.

[LightHouse89]

We don't give a fuck about your petty provincial nonsense, o.k ? Do. You. Understand ? This is about German issues. European issues. And we don't give a fuck about you. Your ideas are irrelevant, your cultural and political baggage is irrelevant because it doesn't apply to us. America is not the centre of the fucking universe. Deal with it.

Oh well then that is good..... I personally do not care what happens in europe so long as it does not control what happens where I live. If you people are into racial suicide [many in England/UK are].... I just hate it when europeans come here and tell me how wonderful multiculturalism is....they do this here and they do it there as well. I wish we were an isolationist nation with a non interventionist military....that would be good. Who said we are the center of the universe? We are not nor do we wish to be.

I just do not understand why on another thread you called me a traitor to this country [which you later described as cultureless and indentity less].... Thats all.. Personally since the British Empire is gone I think a Pan-German confederation or union would be great....no more Brits to be in the way....maybe the French but they do not seem to care even about the Russians.

[Ctwentysevenj]

Still to do with German-Austrians, as Austrians they were referred to after the first world war, the question with the South Tyrol, which was part of the Austro- Hungarian Empire. With Scottish referdum later this year whether to leave the UK and become an independent country, if succesful, would this encourage the South Tyrolese their desire to join Austria, I read somewhere that some would like to join Germany or become independent.

[LightHouse89]

Go ahead. That gives us the chance to rebuild our own forces that we have spent fighting for you in Afghanistan.

Your government choose to go there not mine. We did not force you so do not complain about it. Why do we need OUR forces in your countires? what to baby sit your people so they can fuck like rabbits....nah I do not think so. We do not owe western Europeans anything at all. None of you helped us in the Pacific [except for Aussies and Brits]...... but during the second world war it seemed we assisted in liberating europe only to be screwed over by them in the end.

I think we should stop giving your countries discounted weaponry.....nope you shall pay full price for everything :p That or maybe we could sell it to the Russians at a discount? hahahahah

[LightHouse89]

Still to do with German-Austrians, as Austrians they were referred to after the first world, the question with the South Tyrol, which was part of the Austro- Hungarian Empire. With Scottish referdum later this year whether to leave the UK and become an independent country, if succesful, would this encourage the South Tyrolese their desire to join Austria, I read somewhere that some would like to join Germany or become independent.

I think the Scots should leave but resource wise I think they are screwed if they get independence....who knows.

[Peyrol]

Still to do with German-Austrians, as Austrians they were referred to after the first world, the question with the South Tyrol, which was part of the Austro- Hungarian Empire. With Scottish referdum later this year whether to leave the UK and become an independent country, if succesful, would this encourage the South Tyrolese their desire to join Austria, I read somewhere that some would like to join Germany or become independent.

All our northeast was part of A.H. Empire, uh...


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/KaisertumOsterreich.png

[Visitor_22]

North-East Netherlanders are duutsch people.

Rest I think not.

[The Lawspeaker]

Your government choose to go there not mine. We did not force you so do not complain about it. Why do we need OUR forces in your countires? what to baby sit your people so they can fuck like rabbits....nah I do not think so. We do not owe western Europeans anything at all. None of you helped us in the Pacific [except for Aussies and Brits]...... but during the second world war it seemed we assisted in liberating europe only to be screwed over by them in the end.

I think we should stop giving your countries discounted weaponry.....nope you shall pay full price for everything :p That or maybe we could sell it to the Russians at a discount? hahahahah
No we did not choose a damned thing: we honoured article 5 of NATO which America invoked. That's perfectly o.k because then we would have our own equipment such as the Eurofighter or Saab's or buy Russian. And what do you think happens to America's arms dealers without the compulsory European purchase ?

[The Lawspeaker]

North-East Netherlanders are duutsch people.

Rest I think not.

That's a rather weird way of thinking. Where is the border line ? There is none btw,.

[The Lawspeaker]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0b/RAF_Eurofighter_Typhoon.jpg/1280px-RAF_Eurofighter_Typhoon.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2b/Arm%C3%A9e_de_l%27Air_Rafale.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f0/9819_SAAB_JS-39D_of_the_Czech_Air_Force.jpg/1280px-9819_SAAB_JS-39D_of_the_Czech_Air_Force.jpg

And I am not even looking into Russian fighters but these are European fighters of the latest generation. We don't need your American equipment and the only reason why we joined into the hopeless JSF project was a political one. One that can we still back out off.

[LightHouse89]

No we did not choose a damned thing: we honoured article 5 of NATO which America invoked. That's perfectly o.k because then we would have our own equipment such as the Eurofighter or Saab's or buy Russian. And what do you think happens to America's arms dealers without the compulsory European purchase ?

Well our aircraft are the best in the world. Our ships too.....to me it doesnt matter. America does not need Europe to survive. If anything listening to you people is the worst thing we could do. We were great when we were on our own before you all dragged us into your problems..... this is why I support Isolationism... in WW1 we should have never involved ourselves but the Masonic puppet regime in Washington dragged us into it and ever since dragged us into every conflict since WW1.

We really do not owe the old world a God damn thing. We have our own resources, our own technology, our own economy....we do not need to be dragged down by being any one's bitch. We were better off as isolationists, with stricter racial laws, the gold standard [hopefully we go back to] and a non interventionist government....we should be more concerned about ourselves than the world [except I support the war on terror and bombing our enemies entirely....].....but America should break off of NATO and the UN..... I whole heartidly support this.....then we can sort out our problems here which need urgent attention.

[The Lawspeaker]

Well our aircraft are the best in the world. Our ships too.....to me it doesnt matter. America does not need Europe to survive. If anything listening to you people is the worst thing we could do. We were great when we were on our own before you all dragged us into your problems..... this is why I support Isolationism... in WW1 we should have never involved ourselves but the Masonic puppet regime in Washington dragged us into it and ever since dragged us into every conflict since WW1.

We really do not owe the old world a God damn thing. We have our own resources, our own technology, our own economy....we do not need to be dragged down by being any one's bitch. We were better off as isolationists, with stricter racial laws, the gold standard [hopefully we go back to] and a non interventionist government....we should be more concerned about ourselves than the world [except I support the war on terror and bombing our enemies entirely....].....but America should break off of NATO and the UN..... I whole heartidly support this.....then we can sort out our problems here which need urgent attention.
Bugger off then. Why post here in a thread about European affairs if you don't care about Europe ? You little frustrated yank.

[LightHouse89]

I like our new stealth fighter jet....it could own every aircraft in the sky in europe and russia....just saying. It will replace most of our jets here. We have sleath ships, bombers, helicopters and tanks now :p we own you no matter what we are ten steps ahead....Americans always have been militarily superior to the world.

[LightHouse89]

Bugger off then. Why post here in a thread about European affairs if you don't care about Europe ? You little frustrated yank.

I like to learn about the Slavs or Germanics and old history...new age politics there are sort of interesting...like hearing the right wing parties winning etc.... but your opinions on my country do not matter to me. You people think you know about us but you do not. Thats great if you do not care then do not tell me I am wrong about my opinions regarding my country. :thumb001: Anyway I just dislike how you people call blacks here my countrymen....they are not. so please do not insult me with such a claim.

[The Lawspeaker]

Our Army barely uses any American equipment. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Netherlands_Army#Equipment) Even worse for you: neither does the Navy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Netherlands_Navy). Our Air Force does though but that's nothing that can't be changed over the years.

[The Lawspeaker]

I like to learn about the Slavs or Germanics and old history...new age politics there are sort of interesting...like hearing the right wing parties winning etc.... but your opinions on my country do not matter to me. You people think you know about us but you do not. Thats great if you do not care then do not tell me I am wrong about my opinions regarding my country. :thumb001: Anyway I just dislike how you people call blacks here my countrymen....they are not. so please do not insult me with such a claim.

You tend to make up your own shit as you go.

[The Lawspeaker]

I like our new stealth fighter jet....it could own every aircraft in the sky in europe and russia....just saying. It will replace most of our jets here. We have sleath ships, bombers, helicopters and tanks now :p we own you no matter what we are ten steps ahead....Americans always have been militarily superior to the world.

American militarily superiority:

Korean War ? Inconclusive.
Vietnam ? Lost
Grenada 1983: Won (hardly an impressive opponent)
1st Gulf War ? Victory together with Allies. Real conclusive strategic victory unattainable.
Somalia 1993 ? Lost.
Serbia: Victory together with Allies.
2th Gulf War ? Lost. Today's situation shows that.
Afghanistan ? Lost.
War on Drugs ? Lost.

[LightHouse89]

You tend to make up your own shit as you go.

Not really I just like to hear the news that goes on also in the world... but I suppose your right I am a stupid American :rolleyes:

[LightHouse89]

Militarily superior:

Korean War ? Inconclusive.
Vietnam ? Lost
1st Gulf War ? Victory together with Allies.
2th Gulf War ? Lost. Today's situation shows that.
Afghanistan ? Lost.

vietnam was the only loss.... korea war it was a win/stalemate..... our military has not been allowed to use their full potential because they are apart of the Masonic-Jew UN..... we should be allowed to committ war crimes.... my uncle who was a captian in vietnam even said if they [his troops] could committ war crimeso n the enemy they would have won that war in half of the time just out of installing fear into the enemy. There are no crimes in war no matter what pacifist europeans and jews say..... bunch of pussies with no balls.

[LightHouse89]

Our Army barely uses any American equipment. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Netherlands_Army#Equipment) Even worse for you: neither does the Navy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Netherlands_Navy). Our Air Force does though but that's nothing that can't be changed over the years.

not good enough build your own god damn airforce..... my country sells this stuff too cheap when its worth much more. it isnt russian junk.

[Ctwentysevenj]

I know the United States Coast Guard and the United States Army uses a European made airplane, the C-27J Spartan military transport airplane. The US Army were going to get up to 150 aircraft at one stage, but with cut backs, US Government only getting 21 at this stage, one 14 going to the Coast Guard and 7 going to the army. They may acquire more in the future.

[The Lawspeaker]

vietnam was the only loss.... korea war it was a win/stalemate..... our military has not been allowed to use their full potential because they are apart of the Masonic-Jew UN..... we should be allowed to committ war crimes.... my uncle who was a captian in vietnam even said if they [his troops] could committ war crimeso n the enemy they would have won that war in half of the time just out of installing fear into the enemy. There are no crimes in war no matter what pacifist europeans and jews say..... bunch of pussies with no balls.

You lost close to every single last war you have engaged in over the past 60 years. Talk about a piss poor military history. Even France's record is better. And trust me: Europeans know that we have to respect the French a great deal when it comes to their military.

[The Lawspeaker]

I know the United States Coast Guard and the United States Army uses a European made airplane, the C-27J Spartan military transport airplane. The US Army were going to get up to 150 aircraft at one stage, but with cut backs, US Government only getting 21 at this stage, one 14 going to the Coast Guard and 7 going to the army. They may acquire more in the future.

Probably because their own industry produces crap that they ram through the throats of their European vassals. You know the Starfighter had a nickname here. The Germans called it Witwenmacher... the Widowmaker. The Dutch used the English translation. Why ? Because the fucking crate killed so many good pilots. It had some more good nicknames too: fliegender Sarg or
Sargfighter. The Flying Coffin.

[The Lawspeaker]

Unregelmäßigkeiten bei der Beschaffung führten in der Bundesrepublik (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundesrepublik_Deutschland) zum Lockheed-Skandal (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed-Skandal); eine Absturzserie von F-104 bei der Bundeswehr in den 1960er-Jahren ist als Starfighter-Affäre (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starfighter-Aff%C3%A4re) bekannt. Sie trug dem Flugzeugtyp sarkastische Bezeichnungen wie Witwenmacher, Erdnagel, fliegender Sarg oder Sargfighter ein.[1] (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-104#cite_note-1)
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-104


De zogenaamde "Aankoop van de Eeuw" genereerde een aanzienlijke omzet voor Lockheed, maar een schandaal in Europa (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_%28werelddeel%29), waar de Duitse (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duitse) minister van defensie Franz Josef Strauss (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_Josef_Strauss) bijna tot aftreden werd gedwongen. Prins Bernhard (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_van_Lippe-Biesterfeld) bleek in de zogenaamde Lockheed-affaire (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed-affaire) gevoelig geweest te zijn voor omkoping, wat hij later ook gedeeltelijk toegaf. Hij kreeg van Lockheed giften in waarde van meer dan een miljoen dollar. Velen in Nederland meenden dat de aankoop van de Starfighter gepaard was gegaan met ontoelaatbare Amerikaanse druk. Het politieke debat daarover werd overschaduwd door de hoge verliezen aan toestellen door technische mankementen. In Duitsland stortten 292 van de 916 toestellen neer, waarbij 115 piloten omkwamen - ook in Nederland stortte een fors aantal toestellen neer. Door het bekend worden van de omkoping ging het reeds verlieslijdende bedrijf bijna failliet.


In close combat (dogfight) met een ander toestel was hij echter kansloos door de slechte wendbaarheid van het toestel. Enkele gebruikers verloren bijna de helft van de aangeschafte Starfighters door ongevallen. Deze verliesratio's verschilden sterk: de Spaanse (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaanse) luchtmacht verloor geen enkele Starfighter en de Duitse (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duitse) luchtmacht zeer veel.



De Starfighter was de standaard jachtbommenwerper van de NAVO (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noord-Atlantische_Verdragsorganisatie) in de periode 1961-1985 waarna het werd vervangen, meestal door de F-16 (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-16). Ook in de Belgische Luchtmacht (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgische_Luchtmacht) en de Koninklijke Luchtmacht (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koninklijke_Luchtmacht) heeft het toestel jarenlang dienst gedaan. De F-104 bezat de twijfelachtige eer het slechtste veiligheidsrecord te vestigen. Ook de later aan het licht gekomen omkoopschandalen – waarvan bij Europese (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europa_%28werelddeel%29) aankoop in diverse gevallen sprake was geweest – deden de naam en faam van het toestel geen eer aan.


http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-104_Starfighter


And the scandal ?

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed-affaire

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed-Skandal

Made in USA... fucking piece of crap.

[Visitor_22]

That's a rather weird way of thinking. Where is the border line ? There is none btw,.

They call their language "duutsch" and they speak same language as original people from North-West Germany.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utgx1e2RpIM

[The Lawspeaker]

They call their language "duutsch" and they speak same language as original people from North-West Germany.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utgx1e2RpIM
And, yes, a word that remained... Did you know how we used to call our language ? Diets (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diets).

[Visitor_22]

And, yes, a word that remained... Did you know how we used to call our language ? Diets (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diets).



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMiElxOaHIo




It sounds almost the same as "Gronings" which is spoken in the north east of the Netherlands. I can understand most of this video.



i'm a dutch men from groningen we speak almost the same language as Plattdüütsch. i can understand it without subtitels



I like Platt, it is very easy to understand for someone from the northeast of the Netherlands. 99% the same dialect.



mij grandfather was born in east groningen in 1893 and he talked olmost the same

[The Lawspeaker]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMiElxOaHIo

I can understand this as well. Now do you want to claim that Groningen should secede ? It's just a continuous dialect all along the coast from Groningen until well behind Hamburg.

[LightHouse89]

I know the United States Coast Guard and the United States Army uses a European made airplane, the C-27J Spartan military transport airplane. The US Army were going to get up to 150 aircraft at one stage, but with cut backs, US Government only getting 21 at this stage, one 14 going to the Coast Guard and 7 going to the army. They may acquire more in the future.

they should get rid of that junk and get more Ospreys.....Ospreys are stealth transport and are far more advanced than what the europeans are making.

[Visitor_22]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdtIZnNxy-s




As a Groninger i can understand alot ^^

[LightHouse89]

Probably because their own industry produces crap that they ram through the throats of their European vassals. You know the Starfighter had a nickname here. The Germans called it Witwenmacher... the Widowmaker. The Dutch used the English translation. Why ? Because the fucking crate killed so many good pilots. It had some more good nicknames too: fliegender Sarg or
Sargfighter. The Flying Coffin.

our 'crap' is better than anything you half ass europeans and ruskies can put together.....we invented the first submarine that could launch nuclear missles from under water.....I guess stupid americans are not so stupid now. meanwhile back then europeans and russians had to surface to launch missles.....its not rocket science you morons.

[LightHouse89]

You lost close to every single last war you have engaged in over the past 60 years. Talk about a piss poor military history. Even France's record is better. And trust me: Europeans know that we have to respect the French a great deal when it comes to their military.

we wouldnt lose any war had it not been for the UN YOU people created....and forced us to sign. :rolleyes: France started to do poorly when they lost their monarchy...... that was the worst thing the french lost was their monarchy. :cool:

Yes kiss their boots Dutchman.

[The Lawspeaker]

our 'crap' is better than anything you half ass europeans and ruskies can put together.....we invented the first submarine that could launch nuclear missles from under water.....I guess stupid americans are not so stupid now. meanwhile back then europeans and russians had to surface to launch missles.....its not rocket science you morons.

Never mind the fact that Americans never invented ANYTHING. All American "inventions" were based on European principles. The Internet ? British. Computer language ? German and Italian. Computers themselves ? Also not American but British. Jet engines ? Romanian. You haven't invented a single thing. Submarines ? The first submarine was Dutch and so is the snorkel that allowed them to operate. Submarine warfare ? German.

[The Lawspeaker]

we wouldnt lose any war had it not been for the UN YOU people created....and forced us to sign. :rolleyes: France started to do poorly when they lost their monarchy...... that was the worst thing the french lost was their monarchy. :cool:

Yes kiss their boots Dutchman.
Wrong. The UN is an American thing you forced us to sign. Treaty of San Fransisco. And the same applies to the League of Nations by the way: hello President Wilson.

[LightHouse89]

Never mind the fact that Americans never invented ANYTHING. All American "inventions" were based on European principles. The Internet ? British. Computer language ? German and Italian. Computers themselves ? Also not American but British. Jet engines ? Romanian. You haven't invented a single thing. Submarines ? The first submarine was Dutch and so is the snorkel that allowed them to operate. Submarine warfare ? German.

ahem....... bullshit. If it was not for Superior North Western Anglo-Saxon Americans this world would not be nearly as modern as what it is today. I pat myself on the back for MY peoples achievements....why are you so butthurt.....we invented stealth technology :p I bet next ti will be no....black people invented that you just stole it :rolleyes: LOL. You europeans can never allow us to have a single achievement....you take our achievements and say we white americans have done nothing....... the bullshit use to make me angry.....now it makes me laugh LOL. I just realize that you envy somethings about us and maybe our innovation is one of them. I can tell you madd :p nigga please we dont steal we reveal:thumb001:

[LightHouse89]

Wrong. The UN is an American thing you forced us to sign. Treaty of San Fransisco. And the same applies to the League of Nations by the way: hello President Wilson.

But I jointly blame western europeans but they were more progressive than america..... woodrow wilson did get us involved in that which I am no big fan of his for it. :thumb001: but essentially I remember reading that europeans were more pro UN than americans were and forced it to happen and so the concept was devised by British-American and Western European Free Masons. :bored:

[The Lawspeaker]

ahem....... bullshit. If it was not for Superior North Western Anglo-Saxon Americans this world would not be nearly as modern as what it is today. I pat myself on the back for MY peoples achievements....why are you so butthurt.....we invented stealth technology :p I bet next ti will be no....black people invented that you just stole it :rolleyes: LOL. You europeans can never allow us to have a single achievement....you take our achievements and say we white americans have done nothing....... the bullshit use to make me angry.....now it makes me laugh LOL. I just realize that you envy somethings about us and maybe our innovation is one of them. I can tell you madd :p nigga please we dont steal we reveal:thumb001:

You have nothing to offer us. You have offered us nothing and you will offer us nothing. You have no culture, no history, no originality. Your cultural achievements don't go beyond Hollywood, Coca Cola and McDonalds and then you lecture Europeans on liberalism (the American definition - a stupid definition anyway as it has nothing to with actual liberalism - European definition) : you invented that bullshit.

[Visitor_22]

Ostfrisish Platt

(Very understandable for Netherlanders)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4L6ixj4ZZw&index=20&list=PLQg2k2A48MQk560Ijy5lJ9o0Q_67D4CY-



Münsterländer Platt

(Very understundable for Eastern Netherlanders like Twents)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tE-zMnLcvw&index=21&list=PLQg2k2A48MQk560Ijy5lJ9o0Q_67D4CY-

[LightHouse89]

You have nothing to offer us. You have offered us nothing and you will offer us nothing.

your right we refuse to give you stealth technology....or anyone for that matter....only an idiot shares with his enemies...something europeans do not understand LOL. morons.

[The Lawspeaker]

your right we refuse to give you stealth technology....or anyone for that matter....only an idiot shares with his enemies...something europeans do not understand LOL. morons.

Another thing you haven't invented. Look up, buddy. Just understand that your "liberalism" is an American issue (Berkeley University) that infected us. The blame rests solely upon your countrymen. Fuck off now from a European thread, you inbred moron.

[LightHouse89]

:rolleyes: you edited the comment.....I can tell your upset and probably having a bad day....is it that time of the month?

[The Lawspeaker]

:rolleyes: you edited the comment.....I can tell your upset and probably having a bad day....is it that time of the month?

You're annoying. An inbred troll that is jealous of other peoples who are more superior to someone like you that doesn't even know his own ancestry. An un-person without heritage, without culture, without a past. I know.. people from Europe should feel sorry for you inbreds but I can't be arsed. Now fuck off. I have been friendly and polite but now I won't be: fuck off.

[LightHouse89]

Another thing you haven't invented. Look up, buddy. Just understand that your "liberalism" is an American issue (Berkeley University) that infected us. The blame rests solely upon your countrymen. Fuck off now from a European thread, you inbred moron.

I dont care about european words.....I live in America....and the truth is what we say it is.... okay :thumb001:. Inbred? LOL hahahahahah I can trace my heritage back to the early 1600s and 1500s....go fuck yourself. Berkeley University is a liberal University. :bored::p Now stop sending me insulting messages on here and I wont send them back. Duh!!!!!!

[The Lawspeaker]

I dont care about european words.....I live in America....and the truth is what we say it is.... okay :thumb001:. Inbred? LOL hahahahahah I can trace my heritage back to the early 1600s and 1500s....go fuck yourself. Berkeley University is a liberal University. :bored::p Now stop sending me insulting messages on here and I wont send them back. Duh!!!!!!

You have no heritage. Now fuck of.f This thread his about German matters and that is something that some inbred yokel from Fuckyoursisterville, Redneckistan has nothing to do with. And I am not insulting you: I am you the cold hard truth. That you're just an envious yokel without the slightest bit of heritage that just wants to insult people that do have it out of sheer spite. Now go back to drinking your cheap American horsepiss that goes for beer and screwing your sister like a good redneck.

[LightHouse89]

You're annoying. An inbred troll that is jealous of other peoples who are more superior to someone like you that doesn't even know his own ancestry. An un-person without heritage, without culture, without a past. I know.. people from Europe should feel sorry for you inbreds but I can't be arsed. Now fuck off. I have been friendly and polite but now I won't be: fuck off.

LOL my ancestry.....here as follows with documented and genetic testing [I did not need to take that test but I did out of interest anyway]..... British [England mostly] 3/8ths, Ireland 2/8ths, Germany 1/8th, France [colonial ancestry from Canada] 1/8th and last Swedish-Finn 1/8th..... do you want me to post the entire family tree? Mind you my British side is the colonial side so I am not cultureless or any of that I just do not agree with modern American nationalism.....something someone as retarded and European as you would never understand.....you dont live here so do not worry I am not upset you do not understand.

How am I an inbred? I honestly do not understand why retarded old worlders or Niggers in america use such a term. Nothing inbred about me or the majority of people seeing it was out lawed when the colonies were established. Fuck off LOL you fuck off....you harassed me in a different thread, in a conversation I was having with someone else so face my harrasment here bird brain :p

[The Lawspeaker]

From now on each one of your stupid posts that tries to force your unwanted American ideas on a European situation (a typical American sickness) will just get my thumb down. Is that clear ?

[LightHouse89]

You have no heritage. Now fuck of.f This thread his about German matters and that is something that some inbred yokel from Fuckyoursisterville, Redneckistan has nothing to do with. And I am not insulting you: I am you the cold hard truth. That you're just an envious yokel without the slightest bit of heritage that just wants to insult people that do have it out of sheer spite. Now go back to drinking your cheap American horsepiss that goes for beer and screwing your sister like a good redneck.

The next wave of dutch immigrants shall be used to pick cotton next to their nigger relatives....point taken. I am not from redneckstan but I am sure that is a wonderful place. What in your definition is heritage? I know mine and I am descended from colonial UK and even French colonial from Quebec....I am not cultureless....although I have no french connection [nor do I want to].....but I along with those with similar back grounds feel the same in regards to where we live....and we could give two fucks about your hedonist Netherlands....prostitute your sisters to turks, pakis, blacks and other forieng men hahahaha and you mock us LOL at least we do not sell our sister's viginity to foreign men for Euros hahahahahaha LOl that is all I have to say to you.... I will unsubscribe....hopefully Germany annxes the netherlands and erases dutch culture.

[LightHouse89]

From now on each one of your stupid posts that tries to force your unwanted American ideas on a European situation (a typical American sickness) will just get my thumb down. Is that clear ?

everytime I see you marxist/liberal/left wing European opinion on American issues you will recieve not only a thumbs down but I will troll the shit out of you home page.....deal by the way. :thumb001: You have thumbed me down over a 100 times so its on..... [typical dutch sickness]. Now do not bother me on our topics :thumb001: you did say [after you bothered us] that you did not care....if that is so then why bother us in the first place? your a fruit cake. but anyway I am unsubscribing from this thread............................................ ........... please do not respond to this comment. if you have to insult me do so on my page with a visitor message.


Anyway the capital of anything germanic should be Berlin :thumb001:

[TheForeigner]

Lol if Lawspeaker despises americans and poles so much, I don't want to ask what he thinks of romanians.

[The Lawspeaker]

Lol if Lawspeaker despises americans and poles so much, I don't want to ask what he thinks of romanians.

Meh. I have no problems with Poles but he needed to be put back into his place. ;) And Romanians: just deport your gypo's back to India and get your young people to do something decent instead of skimming ATM's and we should be cool.

[Hochmeister]

Rus rich ? Maybe that's what they claim in Russian history books but Russia is backward, has always been backward and will always be backward.


Even simple peasants were educated up to Mongolian invasion, Rus had literature in Old Russian language, while West Europeans got literature in their languages only after the Reformation and only Rome and Constantinople were larger than Kiev.
There was the Trade route from the Varangians to the Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_route_from_the_Varangians_to_the_Greeks) which was bringing Rus a good income and positive cultural influence from the Byzantine superpower. A good number of Greek missionaries was send to enlighten Rus.
Rus also controlled some parts of the Silk Way after they destroyed Khazar Kaganate.


In Ukranian history ... the only thing "Europeans" ever did is starve them, murder them and rape them.

Fixed.


That's the only thing Russians ever did anyway. That's their entire history. Apart from getting drunk on cheap vodka.

You are confusing Russia with Amsterdam, the gay city of cheap immigrants, cheap drugs, cheap whores and cheap euthanasia.
But in the meanwhile you are spitting at Russians, they mannaged to be first in space and won WW2, as for science, there are too many fields to enumerate.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFvJ6ftZDzQ


And why should we care about what the Czechs think about German reunification or anyone else for that matter ? It's our affair.

Super logic :rolleyes: Then you understand that Russians and Ukrainians don't give a flying shit what Galicians and inferiority complexed paranoids from Europe think about their reunification.

[The Lawspeaker]

-----.
I don't trust anything a Russian says about anything. Most Russians couldn't read or write until the 1930s because Stalin had to drag them to school in order to get them to learn to read and write. Fact.
Amsterdam ? Most of those prostitutes are Russian. Something well known to most Dutch.

[TheForeigner]

Ok... Not that many do what you say. Anyway someone mentioned scottish independence and do you support that and why? How much of british north sea oil is in scottish area? And I see you sort of mentioned Coanda which apparently some dispute his jet plane invention,but he is generally recognized I think and is a hero in Romania.

[Austo]

What % of Austrians would like to merge with Germany?

if Austria would join Germany they would be doomed to multiculturalism, without them austrian culture and People still have a good Chance to live on.
with a nationalistic Germany it would be a whole different question.

[The Lawspeaker]

Ok... Not that many do what you say. Anyway someone mentioned scottish independence and do you support that and why? How much of british north sea oil is in scottish area? And I see you sort of mentioned Coanda which apparently some dispute his jet plane invention,but he is generally recognized I think and is a hero in Romania.

Scottish independence - Scottish issue. Coanda ? The inventor of the jet plane ? That's an established fact.

[Musso]

if Austria would join Germany they would be doomed to multiculturalism, without them austrian culture and People still have a good Chance to live on.
with a nationalistic Germany it would be a whole different question.

True. Austria is much more conservative than Germany and more nationalistic when it comes to its culture.

[Hochmeister]

I don't trust anything a Russian says about anything. Most Russians couldn't read or write until the 1930s because Stalin had to drag them to school in order to get them to learn to read and write. Fact.


You are fanatic. An ignorant, brainwashed fanatic.
And St Olaf's Church was indeed the tallest in the world, you thumbed down even this, revealing your ignorance once again :picard1:


Amsterdam ? Most of those prostitutes are Russian. Something well known to most Dutch.

Yes, since your women prefer Turks and Berbers, only prostitutes are left for you in the Nigerlands. It's of course rich, that according to you Ukrainians are not Russians, but Ukrainian (and Moldavian, Bulgarian and so on) prostitutes in Amsterdam are Russians :rolleyes:

[Breedingvariety]

If there was no European Union, many small countries would have real interest to unite within broader national bodies. With European Union, the reverse is true- small countries show interest to separate from larger ones.

[The Lawspeaker]

Yes, since your women prefer Turks and Berbers, only prostitutes are left for you in the Nigerlands. It's of course rich, that according to you Ukrainians are not Russians, but Ukrainian (and Moldavian, Bulgarian and so on) prostitutes in Amsterdam are Russians :rolleyes:
Wrong again, Russki. I don't know any Dutch girls that date Turks and Berbers. Not even one. And when it comes to prostitutes: their biggest customers are American tourists. But it says a lot about your country that all you are known for is shoddy propaganda, wars against neighbours, vodka and prostitution.

[Hochmeister]

all you are known for is shoddy propaganda, wars against neighbours, vodka and prostitution.

It has been detected already, that you are an ignorant paranoid. There is no need to prove it once again.

[The Lawspeaker]

It has been detected already, that you are an ignorant paranoid. There is no need to prove it once again.

Merely stating facts. That's all your known for. Some reputation.

[Hochmeister]

Merely stating facts. That's all your known for. Some reputation.

You are fucking nuts. It's imposible to have a normal conversation with you. You just start calling names and run into hysterics, instead of a normal, cold exchange of opinions. What a primitive barbarity :D Even Turks here behave smarter than you :picard1:

Those retarded morons who have no idea about Rembrandt, assess your country as a bunch brothels and drug caffes overwhelmed with gays, since MTV told them. I'm afraid you are one of them, a lost case :D

[The Lawspeaker]

You are fucking nuts. It's imposible to have a normal conversation with you. You just start calling names and run into hysterics, instead of a normal, cold exchange of opinions. What a primitive barbarity :D Even Turks here behave smarter than you :picard1:

Those retarded morons who have no idea about Rembrandt, assess your country as a bunch brothels and drug caffes overwhelmed with gays, since MTV told them. I'm afraid you are one of them, a lost case :D

Why would a German unification be of your concern anyway ? Probably because you're frightened that Russia (and America) will no longer be able to use this part of Europe for its own goals. Your ideas are imperialist, mine nationalistic. Russia just wants an empire all the way to the North Sea (and beyond).

[Hochmeister]

Why would a German unification be of your concern anyway ?

Lol. I've said I'm for reunification of Germany and Austria.


Probably because you're frightened that Russia (and America) will no longer be able to use this part of Europe for its own goals. Your ideas are imperialist, mine nationalistic. Russia just wants an empire all the way to the North Sea (and beyond).

:picard1:

[The Lawspeaker]

Lol. I've said I'm for reunification of Germany and Austria.



:picard1:
Then why are you so worried about it that you've come just to troll ?

[interes]

same

[Hochmeister]

Then why are you so worried about it that you've come just to troll ?

You have double standards for Germans and Russians and I commented about it. Then you started all this shitstorm, ask yourself, why.

[MINARDOWICZ]

Kind of... kind of not. They are genetically a little more slav influenced and somewhat south of them in some aspects I think... but still qualify as Germans.

[The Lawspeaker]

You have double standards for Germans and Russians and I commented about it. Then you started all this shitstorm, ask yourself, why.
Of course I have double standards. That's basically what RT taught me: it's o.k for Russia to rape its neighbours but the end of the world morally wrong when America goes to war. Better look into your own hypocrisy first. So with Russians being a bunch of hypocrites why not judge them along their own standards ? Screw 'em, I say. It's better to keep your enemies small, divided and poor. That's what you did to Europe so we should do it to you.

[Hochmeister]

Better look into your own hypocrisy first.

Show me examples of "my" hypocrisy.

And you keep abusing the thumb down system again. :picard1: Ever heard of Ordnung muss sein?

[The Lawspeaker]

Show me examples of "my" hypocrisy.

And you keep abusing the thumb down system again. :picard1: Ever heard of Ordnung muss sein?
I showed you examples of Russian hypocrisy and now we should simply use the same logic on Russia: keep it small, poor and divided while we can flourish.

[LightHouse89]

Wrong again, Russki. I don't know any Dutch girls that date Turks and Berbers. Not even one. And when it comes to prostitutes: their biggest customers are American tourists. But it says a lot about your country that all you are known for is shoddy propaganda, wars against neighbours, vodka and prostitution.

Lies.....Americans are not the majority of customers..... we have higher standards than dutch red neck women and other euro trash....we are your masters not your bed mates.

[The Lawspeaker]

Lies.....Americans are not the majority of customers..... we have higher standards than dutch red neck women and other euro trash....we are your masters not your bed mates.

Mainly American and British. Now get lost: you lot come to Amsterdam for Russian and African pussy because your own women can't even lay their men.

[LightHouse89]

Mainly American and British. Now get lost: you lot come to Amsterdam for Russian and African pussy because your own women can't even lay their men.

maybe british....their women are mostly hags any way. Our women are mostly a mix of western Europeans and actually look better than british islander women...... our women like real men.....men who have arms so they can protect their family.... no woman in the right mind wouldn't marry a man who is not armed.

provide a source that most men are americans? I will try to dig up that article on dutch women as prostitutes in Amsterdam. most of us americans think you Europeans as very much on the left....at least to our standards....that's so disgusting legalizing prostitution.

[blogen]

Yes, Austrians are ethnic Germans, but their nationality is Austrian and not German.

[Breedingvariety]

Yes, Austrians are ethnic Germans, but their nationality is Austrian and not German.
Mind's blown.

[PowerControls]

Attacking Poland ? What good would it bring us ? We'd have some unruly peasants, car thieves and plumbers to hold down with an occupation force ? Why on earth would we want that ? In fact - it would harm our own economy since we import grain from Poland as well. Yes.. we still do. So why the fuck would we want to invade Poland ?

Top 10 Polish Exports to Netherlands

Poland’s exports to the Netherlands amounted to
$8 billion or 4.4% of overall Polish exports.

1. Machines, engines, pumps: $1.1 billion
2. Oil: $1.1 billion
3. Electronic equipment: $961.4 million
4. Ships, boats: $520.4 million
5. Vehicles: $500.3 million
6. Furniture, lighting, signs: $411.9 million
7. Meat: $291.1 million
8. Iron or steel products: $279.8 million
9. Plastics: $244.1 million
10. Dairy, eggs, honey: $171.5 million


Top 10 Dutch Exports to Poland

Netherlands exports to Poland amounted to
$13.4 billion or 2% of its overall exports.

1. Machines, engines, pumps: $2.9 billion
2. Electronic equipment: $1.9 billion
3. Vehicles: $926.7 million
4. Plastics: $761 million
5. Pharmaceuticals: $489.4 million
6. Medical, technical equipment: $391.5 million
7. Organic chemicals: $379.7 million
8. Aluminum: $320.4 million
9. Live trees and plants: $264.1 million
10. Fruits, nuts: $247 million

It would harm you more than you think...

[The Lawspeaker]

Top 10 Polish Exports to Netherlands

Poland’s exports to the Netherlands amounted to
$8 billion or 4.4% of overall Polish exports.

1. Machines, engines, pumps: $1.1 billion
2. Oil: $1.1 billion
3. Electronic equipment: $961.4 million
4. Ships, boats: $520.4 million
5. Vehicles: $500.3 million
6. Furniture, lighting, signs: $411.9 million
7. Meat: $291.1 million
8. Iron or steel products: $279.8 million
9. Plastics: $244.1 million
10. Dairy, eggs, honey: $171.5 million


Top 10 Dutch Exports to Poland

Netherlands exports to Poland amounted to
$13.4 billion or 2% of its overall exports.

1. Machines, engines, pumps: $2.9 billion
2. Electronic equipment: $1.9 billion
3. Vehicles: $926.7 million
4. Plastics: $761 million
5. Pharmaceuticals: $489.4 million
6. Medical, technical equipment: $391.5 million
7. Organic chemicals: $379.7 million
8. Aluminum: $320.4 million
9. Live trees and plants: $264.1 million
10. Fruits, nuts: $247 million

It would harm you more than you think...
So there is no reason for one of your kinfolk to be so afraid of a Dutch-German unification because why would we go to war if it would damage both you and the Netherlands/Germany ?

[Musso]

1815–1866, part of the German Confederation

1867–1918, many Austrians were not exactly satisfied with their current situation and wanted to join the German Empire, even though it was dominated by Prussia. And how was a famous K.u.K. regiment called for example? K.u.k. Niederösterreichisches Infanterie-Regiment Hoch- und Deutschmeister Nr. 4

As if I have said before: They wanted to join the German Empire. They even wanted to call their country "Deutschösterreich". Their (un)offical hymn was "Deutschösterreich, du herrliches Land"



I don’t think that you have any idea how the Holy Roman Empire worked

What you were trying to do was to relativize that Austria was part of Germany.

Please, tell me more about my own damn country! Surely everyone in the "South" is Catholic while everyone in the "North" is Protestant. There are absolutely no Protestants in Wüttenberg or Catholics in the Emsland

True, but Austria was relatively independent and autonomous. The Confederation was very weak, something like the EU, maybe even weaker. It was created to coordinate the economies together. Important thing to know is that " It collapsed due to the rivalry between Prussia and Austria, known as German dualism, warfare, the 1848 revolution, and the inability of the multiple members to compromise."

They called the country "Deutsch österreich" to emphasize the German speaking Austrians, because the Empire of Austria was always multi-ethnic.

Let me clarify though what I'm arguing. I am arguing that Austrians over their history have developed a national identity that is separate from the German identity. I have been to Wien, people don't refer to their culture or people as German, but as Austrian. I haven't seen one Austrian there say they are German, and I clearly see that Austrians have developed a separate identity, which happens when you are separated from a given region or country for long enough. That being said, Austrians and Bavarians share many similarities and obviously Austrians have more similarities to Germans than anybody else. But I wouldn't just simply say, oh all Austrians are Germans and there's no Austrian identity. It's more complicated than that.

[Dandelion]

Meh. I have no problems with Poles but he needed to be put back into his place. ;) And Romanians: just deport your gypo's back to India and get your young people to do something decent instead of skimming ATM's and we should be cool.

One Polish kiddo hit the Dutch news in a negative way recently, so the Dutch sentiment toward that ethnicity has known better times. ;)

Meh, if they sent him to Poland and reveal his latest exploit to their social media he'd get his ass kicked by his fellow Polacks probably anyway, because I doubt Poles condone violence against women.

[The Lawspeaker]

One Polish kiddo hit the Dutch news in a negative way recently, so the Dutch sentiment toward that ethnicity has known better times. ;)

Meh, if they sent him to Poland and reveal his latest exploit to their social media he'd get his ass kicked by his fellow Polacks probably anyway, because I doubt Poles condone violence against women.
I hope they'll send the little fuck back to Poland. We don't need him here.

[Dandelion]

I hope they'll send the little fuck back to Poland. We don't need him here.

FAS can cause tremendous psychological harm (not confirmed, but he looks like he's 'conceived out of alcohol'). All of the Netherlands knows his face now, so he has practically no future.

[The Lawspeaker]

FAS can cause tremendous psychological harm (not confirmed, but he looks like he's 'conceived out of alcohol'). All of the Netherlands knows his face now, so he has practically no future.

He might just as well get his arse on the next train to Warsaw. But I don't think he'll have a future there as well. He might just as well hang himself and rid the world of his useless existence.

[Diërker]

Austrians are Germans, the Austrians are a sub-group of the German peoples.

[Musso]

Austrians are Germans, the Austrians are a sub-group of the German peoples.

You mean Germanic people?

[Diërker]

You mean Germanic people?

Yes, of course. We relate more to the Bavarian peoples however. Before the 1800's, Germany did not exist, there were small Germanic states such as Saxony, Swabia, and Austria was within Bavarian consultant. There is no specific difference between us however, we all considered ourselves to be Germans at sometime, and still do.

[Musso]

Yes, of course. We relate more to the Bavarian peoples however. Before the 1800's, Germany did not exist, there were small Germanic states such as Saxony, Swabia, and Austria was within Bavarian consultant. There is no specific difference between us however, we all considered ourselves to be Germans at sometime, and still do.

Bavarians are basically Austrians just without the political separation that was formed over the past two centuries.

[Diërker]

Bavarians are basically Austrians just without the political separation that was formed over the past two centuries.

Yes, basically.

[zhaoyun]

Ethnically yes. But not German in identity, history or nationality.

[Mortimer]

i think their ethnic group is german, in austro-hungary the german speaking austrians identified as german, when it was multi-cultural empire, in contrast to magyaric or slavic (hungars, czechs etc.). hitler was austrian too. he was well accepted as german and became führer.

[LightHouse89]

Ethnically yes. But not German in identity, history or nationality.

bullshit! [sorry friend]

[LightHouse89]

I jerk off now! all over lawspeakers bullshit :thumb001:

[LightHouse89]

Bavarians are basically Austrians just without the political separation that was formed over the past two centuries.

Austrians and German Swiss are Germans.....one people one volk!

[Musso]

Yes, basically.

That being said, I've been to Austria, and I notice the people accept and defend their Austrian identity rather than German one. The fact of the Austrian identity is beyond a doubt. So there is nothing wrong with Austrians being Austrians rather than Germans.

[Diërker]

Austrians and German Swiss are Germans.....one people one volk!

Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Führer!

[Diërker]

That being said, I've been to Austria, and I notice the people accept and defend their Austrian identity rather than German one. The fact of the Austrian identity is beyond a doubt. So there is nothing wrong with Austrians being Austrians rather than Germans.

Austrians loved to be classified as Germans, which really they are. How WWII went down, they have a 'personal' reason for themselves, as to why they would rather stick with being identified as Austrian, rather then German. (Adolf Hitler, NSDAP, Anschluss, etc.,)

[Musso]

Austrians loved to be classified as Germans, which really they are. How WWII went down, they have a 'personal' reason for themselves, as to why they would rather stick with being identified as Austrian, rather then German. (Adolf Hitler, NSDAP, Anschluss, etc.,)

Well, Austria was always multi-ethnic, so naturally Austrians identified with their German language and Germanic culture in comparison with Hungarian and Slavic folk. Austrians, Swiss Germans, and Germany's Germans are all part of a bigger German family, but saying everyone is German and ignoring the separate identities that these groups have is not fair either. If Austrians as a nation identify themselves as Austrian in their identity, they have a right to that.

[Breedingvariety]

Well, Austria was always multi-ethnic, so naturally Austrians identified with their German language and Germanic culture in comparison with Hungarian and Slavic folk. Austrians, Swiss Germans, and Germany's Germans are all part of a bigger German family, but saying everyone is German and ignoring the separate identities that these groups have is not fair either. If Austrians as a nation identify themselves as Austrian in their identity, they have a right to that.
Austrians don't think they are Germans because somebody said they were Austrians. They didn't choose to be Austrians. They chose to be Germans, but they were not allowed to be part of Germany. So now they believe they are Austrians. Otherwise they would have to admit to themselves they have no say what country they will be part of.

[PowerControls]

So there is no reason for one of your kinfolk to be so afraid of a Dutch-German unification because why would we go to war if it would damage both you and the Netherlands/Germany ?

Frankly, you can unite with any country you wish. It's not my call.

[The Lawspeaker]

Frankly, you can unite with any country you wish. It's not my call.

One of your countrymen immediately began talking about how we would attack Poland. So there is obviously some unneeded fear. I think the main issue is a loss of control: a unified Germany can no longer be bossed around as it is the prime European power.

[Arend]

True, but Austria was relatively independent and autonomousBreaking news: Bascically all parts of Germany, the German Empire, or the Holy Roman Empire were or are compared to other countries way more independent and autonomous.

It was created to coordinate the economies together.It wasn’t an economic Bund, it was a political and military one.


Important thing to know is that " It collapsed due to the rivalry between Prussia and Austria, known as German dualism, warfare, the 1848 revolution, and the inability of the multiple members to compromise."Strange that they called it “German Dualism” and that Austria was part of something as a “German Federation” if they felt so different huh?


They called the country "Deutsch österreich" to emphasize the German speaking AustriansYeah, because that totally makes sense. They wanted to call themselves “Deutschösterreich” because they felt that they were Germans.


because the Empire of Austria was always multi-ethnic. And?


Let me clarify though what I'm arguing. I am arguing that Austrians over their history have developed a national identity that is separate from the German identity. I have been to Wien, people don't refer to their culture or people as German, but as Austrian. I haven't seen one Austrian there say they are German, and I clearly see that Austrians have developed a separate identity, which happens when you are separated from a given region or country for long enough. That being said, Austrians and Bavarians share many similarities and obviously Austrians have more similarities to Germans than anybody else. But I wouldn't just simply say, oh all Austrians are Germans and there's no Austrian identity. It's more complicated than that.And that is what is so damn wrong about it: Not After 1806, not after 1866, not after 1871, not after 1919 Austrians saw themselves as different from the rest of Germany. Only after the loss of the Second World War Austrians began to see themselves as different from the rest of Germany, not matter how they or you want to alter history.
From an article about South Tyrol:


Das Sommerloch ist in Südtirol durch eine Diskussion zwischen dem ehemaligen italienischen Staatspräsidenten Francesco Cossiga und dem Landeshauptmann Luis Durnwalder belebt worden. Cossiga hatte in einer Stellungnahme festgestellt, daß die Südtiroler eine deutsche Minderheit im italienischen Staat seien, Durnwalder korrigierte ihn und sprach von den Südtirolern als Teil einer "österreichischen Nation".
Durnwalders These ist entschieden falsch, denn es gibt keine österreichische Nation. Eine solche Bezeichnung hat weder eine geschichtliche noch eine sozialpolitische Berechtigung. Die Habsburger, die über Jahrhunderte hinweg von Wien aus den Vielvölkerstaat regierten, waren deutsche Fürsten und haben dies immer deutlich betont. Sie blieben es auch, als sie 1806 den Titel als römische Kaiser deutscher Nation ablegen mußten. Im Reiche der Habsburger erlebte die deutsche Kultur einen ihrer Höhepunkte, sie prägte dieses Staatsgebilde, ohne die Rechte der anderen Völker einzuschränken. Nicht nur die Treue zum Herrscherhaus, sondern auch die Besinnung auf gemeinsame Werte waren der entscheidende Kitt dieser Gemeinschaft.
Mit dem aufkommenden Nationalismus des 19. Jahrhunderts gewann auch eine großdeutsche Bewegung, die sich gegen den Vielvölkerstaat richtete, an Bedeutung. Dazu trug der Sieg Preußens über Österreich-Ungarn im Jahre 1866 bei, denn nun übernahm Preußen die Führungsrolle innerhalb der deutschen Länder und Fürsten. Dies mündete in der Gründung des Deutschen Reiches und endete schließlich in der Tragödie des Ersten Weltkrieges.
Nach der Zerstückelung des Vielvölkerstaates blieb ein deutsches Restösterreich zurück, das in verschiedenen Volksabstimmungen den Beitritt zum deutschen Reich forderte, daran aber durch die Siegermächte gehindert wurde. Der Diktatfrieden von Versailles förderte das Aufkommen von autoritären Regimes in zahlreichen europäischen Staaten, wobei das faschistische Italien und das nationalsozialistische Deutschland die Akzente setzten. Besonders der rassistisch gefärbte Pangermanismus des Österreichers Hitler, der in Berlin an die Macht gekommen war, erschütterte die erste österreichische Republik in ihren Grundfesten. Um sich gegen die starken Anschlußbestrebungen in der Bevölkerung zu wehren, erfanden die Austrofaschisten, die seit 1934 Österreich diktatorisch regierten und die sich zeitweilig als "die besseren Deutschen" bezeichneten, die "österreichische Nation".
Mit der Niederlage Hitlerdeutschlands beschlossen die Siegermächte, Österreich wiederherzustellen. Diese zweite österreichische Republik zeichnete sich dadurch aus, daß sie jede Verbindung zum Deutschtum leugnete. Man wollte damit die Mitverantwortung am Nationalsozialismus und seinen Verbrechen ebenso wie die berechtigten Wiedergutmachungsansprüche der Opfer ignorieren.

Diese geschichtliche Lüge hat die Entwicklung der österreichischen Gesellschaft bis heute in negativer Weise beeinflußt. Eine schlampige Entnazifizierung - beide großen Parteien haben großzügig alte Nazis in ihre Reihen aufgenommen - sowie der beginnende kalte Krieg haben dazu beigetragen, daß die peinliche Vergangenheit unter den Teppich gekehrt wurde.
Mit der Auflösung des Vielvölkerstaates in Saint Germain im Jahre 1919 ging auch die Zerreißung des historischen dreisprachigen Tirols einher. Südtirol wurde Italien einverleibt und das Königreich Italien betrieb eine brutale und systematische Entdeutschungspolitik. Hitler und Mussolini beschlossen schließlich die "Heimkehr der Südtiroler ins Reich". Nur der verlorene Krieg der Achsenmächte hat dies verhindert.
Obwohl Südtirol nie zur österreichischen Republik gehört hat, ist es stets ein zentrales Anliegen der Regierenden in Wien und Tirol geblieben. Nachdem alle Bemühungen gescheitert waren, eine Grenzverschiebung zu erreichen, ging es darum, den deutsch-österreichischen Charakter Südtirols zu erhalten. Das ist schließlich in einer von Rom mühsam erkämpften Autonomieregelung gelungen, die den Bestand dieser deutschsprachigen Minderheit innerhalb des italienischen Staates weitgehend garantiert. Meilensteine in diesem langen Kampf waren das Gruber-Degasperi-Abkommen des Jahres 1946 und die Intervention durch Bruno Kreisky bei den Vereinten Nationen vom Jahre 1960.
Es war übrigens Außenminister Kreisky, der erstmals in diesem Zusammenhang von der "österreichischen Minderheit" in Italien sprach. Er tat dies, um die Angriffe italienischer Diplomaten und Presseorgane zu parieren, die Südtirols Bestrebungen nach Autonomie als revanschistische pangermanistische Aktionen zu diffamieren versuchten. In demselben Sinne wurde diese Diktion auch von den Südtiroler Sozialdemokraten verwendet. Bei aller Würdigung der politischen Verbundenheit mit Österreich gibt es keine Anhaltspunkte um die Südtiroler einer phantomattischen österreichischen Nation zuzuordnen.
Translate it by yourself

Bavarians are basically Austrians just without the political separation that was formed over the past two centuries.Austrians are basically Bavarians, not the other way around.

[PowerControls]

One of your countrymen immediately began talking about how we would attack Poland. So there is obviously some unneeded fear. I think the main issue is a loss of control: a unified Germany can no longer be bossed around as it is the prime European power.

Well...Germany is already the main European power and will be...there is no need for Netherlands to join;-)

[The Lawspeaker]

Well...Germany is already the main European power and will be...there is no need for Netherlands to join;-)

Why not ?

[Geminus]

Bavarians are basically Austrians just without the political separation that was formed over the past two centuries.

It's exactly the other way round: After Germany defeated the Hungarians in 955 Austria was founded and settled by Bavarians.
You can read more about it's history here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margraviate_of_Austria

[Shuffle]

Austrians are a part of a German cultural space like German-speaking Swiss, German-speaking Belgians and Luxembourgeois are, too, as well as there are massive differences in this space. They are not a part of the German state and the overwhelming majority would never want to be today, which they're pretty right with imho, they're much better off independent! After WWI they wanted to be part of a German state, but there were some reasons for, especially economic ones, they feared that they couldn't survive on their own and it really was difficult for them in the situation of this period, since their industry lost all it's markets in the South-East without having acces to similar markets, the mountaineous areas of Tyrol and Salzburg couldn't feed Vienna and they were no markets for the industrial products of Vienna, Austrian economy in this time was not adapted, like e.g. the swiss economy was, Switzerland allways was a small country in the middle of Europe, Austria not, so Austrians wanted to join Germany, also they had fears because they were no military power, those reasons aren't there anymore, thank goodness!

[TheForeigner]

What did that pole do in Holland? The one you mentioned on this thread in connection with violence or something illegal or immoral and that he should be deported.

[aimar]

yes, also northern switzerland, netherlands, jutland and czech republic, they're all the same to me.

[Linet]

As i see it, Germans, and Germanics :valkyrie: in general, like to separate from each other ....The image i have in my head is that Germans-Austrians-Dutch are exactly the same nation http://smileys.emoticonsonly.com/emoticons/g/go_team-2389.gif. Then those three along with Sweden, Denmark and Norway are all Germanics and close related to each other :grouphug: (If not again the same nation). Now as to why they like to be separated :stop....i can only imagine due to historical reasons rather than really national ones :noidea:.

[The Lawspeaker]

What did that pole do in Holland? The one you mentioned on this thread in connection with violence or something illegal or immoral and that he should be deported.

Attacked a young teenage girl from behind, kicked her on the head etc.

[TheForeigner]

Can't find anything on the net about the incident. Hope he gets punished severely. I don't know why this looney would do this.

[TheForeigner]

Also hope Netherlands wins world cup, since you guys don't have one and you always had a great team which I always loved and supported among foreign teams. Do you have a european title? You should win that in 2 years too anyway. If not go Portugal! Same reasons in their case.

[Krampus]

Austrians are German, but more aristocratic.

[Leliana]

Austrians are Germans, that's a fact. I too have a German and 'Austrian' family background but there's not the slightest difference between the two elements. :)

Austrians could be called 'South-Bavarians'. Because Bavaria and Austria share the same dialects, the same culture, the same traditions and are of the same kind (which is a feeling you have when you're socializing with them). Their ethnogenesis is one.

These maps show that the Dukedom of Bavaria incorporated huge parts of today's Austria AND South Tyrol!
Old borders in red
Current borders in yellow

http://wwws.phil.uni-passau.de/histhw/TutBay/karte_bayern.jpg


Bavaria in 976 reached the mediterranean sea.

http://1.2.3.10/bmi/www.lechrain-geschichte.de/pictures/SDG_Voewdg_Bayern%20bis%20976.jpg

An another map of that time.

http://1.2.3.10/bmi/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Bayern_im_10.Jh.png


The only Austrians who aren't Bavarians are the ones from the state of Vorarlberg. They are Alemannic and are more similar to Swabians and Swiss-Germans.

[The Lawspeaker]

Can't find anything on the net about the incident. Hope he gets punished severely. I don't know why this looney would do this.

Dit klootzakje: http://www.hartvannederland.nl/top-nieuws/2014/verdachte-schokkende-mishandeling-opgepakt/

[Chrissi]

Not really and you shouldn't say that to an austrian or swiss person they might get insulted. Even bavarians are very different from the rest of germany they could make their own country. Germany itself has such different areas with own dialects and traditions

[Zincite]

The only Austrians who aren't Bavarians are the ones from the state of Vorarlberg. They are Alemannic and are more similar to Swabians and Swiss-Germans.

That's correct. The Vorarlbergians, Alsatians, Swabians, and Swiss Germans are very similar, emphasized in dialect (Alemannisch) above all as well as shared history to a degree.

[The Lawspeaker]

Not really and you shouldn't say that to an austrian or swiss person they might get insulted. Even bavarians are very different from the rest of germany they could make their own country. Germany itself has such different areas with own dialects and traditions

You're very funny, Chrissl. Do you know where Leliana is from ? CSU heartland. Does that help you a bit ?

[Leliana]

Even bavarians are very different from the rest of germany they could make their own country. Germany itself has such different areas with own dialects and traditions
Bavaria has way more in common with Austria than with Northern Germany. In a normal world, Bavaria and Austria were one country, or at least united in one big Germany.

There's a cultural gap and gap in traditions and dialects between Southern Germany and Northern Germany. Northern Germans are another typus of human somehow. They talk different and think different...we call them 'Piefke' or 'Preißn'. ;)

But we are all Germans, of course. We have enough real diversity between ourselves, we don't need exotic invaders.

[The Lawspeaker]

Bavaria has way more in common with Austria than with Northern Germany. In a normal world, Bavaria and Austria were one country, or at least united in one big Germany.

There's a cultural gap and gap in traditions and dialects between Southern Germany and Northern Germany. Northern Germans are another typus of human somehow. They talk different and think different...we call them 'Piefke' or 'Preißn'. ;)

But we are all Germans, of course. We have enough real diversity between ourselves, we don't need exotic invaders.

The same goes for us here: every province is a little bit different. In fact: the South (Limburg) would share more (culturally) with the Cologne area and parts of Zealand and Brabant more with Flanders than with Holland. And the Hollander is a different creature from the Twent who really looks much more at Germany. We don't need much more diversity between ourselves.

[Zincite]

Bavaria has way more in common with Austria than with Northern Germany. In a normal world, Bavaria and Austria were one country, or at least united in one big Germany.

There's a cultural gap and gap in traditions and dialects between Southern Germany and Northern Germany. Northern Germans are another typus of human somehow. They talk different and think different...we call them 'Piefke' or 'Preißn'. ;)

Yes, broadly, the people that speak Oberdeutsch versus Plattdüütsch.

The southern German people, as mentioned, can then be subdivided from Oberdeutsch speaking into Alemannisch or Bairisch/Boarisch speaking. I would argue that the Bavarians have as much in common if not more with the Alemannic German speaking people than the North Germans.

[Abeja]

...

I didn't know there were still Austrians regarding themeselves as Germans. How many of you have remained?

[The Lawspeaker]

I didn't know there were still Austrians regarding themeselves as Germans. How many of you have remained?

None of which has anything to do with you. Keep your nose out.

[Abeja]

None of which has anything to do with you. Keep your nose out.

It has EVERYTHING to do with me.

[Chrissi]

Bavaria has way more in common with Austria than with Northern Germany. In a normal world, Bavaria and Austria were one country, or at least united in one big Germany.

There's a cultural gap and gap in traditions and dialects between Southern Germany and Northern Germany. Northern Germans are another typus of human somehow. They talk different and think different...we call them 'Piefke' or 'Preißn'. ;)

But we are all Germans, of course. We have enough real diversity between ourselves, we don't need exotic invaders.

I know exactly dafür seid ihr Schluchtenscheißer:D Northerners are more moderate without dialect except for hanseatic maybe but it's on the verge of being extinct I only use "moin" usually it's just "hochdeutsch" up here. Its true there are so many different ethnicities and phenotypes and cultures even within one country what do you need more. People are so spoilt haha

[Ctwentysevenj]

I wonder if there are any Swiss Germans they would like a union with a greater Germany.

[TheForeigner]

Hey Leilana. I pmed you and you didn't show me no love!:( Why so cold with me?

[Abeja]

So there is no reason for one of your kinfolk to be so afraid of a Dutch-German unification because why would we go to war if it would damage both you and the Netherlands/Germany ?

Poor dumbfuck are you born that stupid or have you become following an incident?

http://www.zonu.com/images/500X0/2011-05-27-13794/Third-Reich-1944.png

[The Lawspeaker]

I know exactly dafür seid ihr Schluchtenscheißer:D Northerners are more moderate without dialect except for hanseatic maybe but it's on the verge of being extinct I only use "moin" usually it's just "hochdeutsch" up here. Its true there are so many different ethnicities and phenotypes and cultures even within one country what do you need more. People are so spoilt haha
That's more like here: I have heard people use "moin" in Groningen Province while more to the West "morgen" would be used. In fact - it's used all over the country in various variants but it's generally replaced with "Goedemiddag/Goeiemiddag" around noon. But moin is more something for Groningen Province. But for what I have noticed the Northern Germans have a lot more in common with people here: the same attitudes, the practicality.

[Zincite]

I wonder if there are any Swiss Germans they would like a union with a greater Germany.

There needs to be a comprehensive plan to do such. Too hypothetical, at least at the moment, to discuss.

[Abeja]

There needs to be a comprehensive plan to do such. Too hypothetical, at least at the moment, to discuss.

Are you a German Swiss? If so, how many of you would like to merge (or at least not oppose) a union with Germany?

[Chrissi]

That's more like here: I have heard people use "moin" in Groningen Province while more to the West "morgen" would be used. In fact - it's used all over the country in various variants but it's generally replaced with "Goedemiddag/Goeiemiddag" around noon. But moin is more something for Groningen Province. But for what I have noticed the Northern Germans have a lot more in common with people here: the same attitudes, the practicality.

I didn't know that I never been in Groningen. I wonder how come they use moin I always thought it's specifically a hamburger dialect. Do they also say "hummel hummel" ? Maybe that's were all the other hanseatic people relocated:confused: Yes it's true Holländer and Northern germans are almost indistinguishable. You people seem to love coming to the baltic sea as I noticed many cars from holland on vacation. Germany and holland has a friendly rivalry going on especially in football though:)

[The Lawspeaker]

I didn't know that I never been in Groningen. I wonder how come they use moin I always thought it's specifically a hamburger dialect. Do they also say "hummel hummel" ? Maybe that's were all the other hanseatic people relocated:confused: Yes it's true Holländer and Northern germans are almost indistinguishable. You people seem to love coming to the baltic sea as I noticed many cars from holland on vacation. Germany and holland has a friendly rivalry going on especially in football though:)
Hummel hummel is probably more your area. :) But, yes, it's probably because the culture is much the same, the prices are bit more friendly and it's right around the corner. It's known territory.

[Chrissi]

Please, just shut up.

Wth do you come from and what's your problem? We can sort it out right now

[The Lawspeaker]

Wth do you come from and what's your problem? We can sort it out right now

Yap. She is a northern gal. They are as bad as girls from my own area.


Oh my GOD how can I survuve this? http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/lmao.gif
@ Abeja: here is my advise. Don't fuck with women from the North. They split your ugly head wide open, piss in it and go back to bed and sleep sound without any getting any nightmares. They do this for breakfast, lunch and dinner. That's why we men know when to shut the fuck up.

[The Lawspeaker]

Keep dreaming. It will be useful when one day you will wake up and realize that there will be no more Netherlands, just like Amerindians lost their lands over Americans.

Will not happen.

[Austo]

Bavaria has way more in common with Austria than with Northern Germany. In a normal world, Bavaria and Austria were one country, or at least united in one big Germany.

There's a cultural gap and gap in traditions and dialects between Southern Germany and Northern Germany. Northern Germans are another typus of human somehow. They talk different and think different...we call them 'Piefke' or 'Preißn'. ;)

But we are all Germans, of course. We have enough real diversity between ourselves, we don't need exotic invaders.

I would like to know wich Party you would Chose at election in Austria.

[Leliana]

I just deleted the utter nonsense of Abeja and the responses to that garbage. :)


I would like to know wich Party you would Chose at election in Austria.
FPÖ. But I think the Rekos were a very good and intelligent idea. Ewald Stadler is a man of great wits and knowledge. :) But they didn't do well in the European elections. :(

I think the best minds of FPÖ, BZÖ and Rekos should unite and create a new party. There were even some few good, but a bit too naive people in Liste Stronach...:eek:

[Austo]

I just deleted the utter nonsense of Abeja and the responses to that garbage. :)


FPÖ. But I think the Rekos were a very good and intelligent idea. Ewald Stadler is a man of great wits and knowledge. :) But they didn't do well in the European elections. :(

I think the best minds of FPÖ, BZÖ and Rekos should unite and create a new party. There were even some few good, but a bit too naive people in Liste Stronach...:eek:

Strache does very good, no Need to take the risk of forming a new Party. :)



i think there are a couple differences between austrians and Germans tough:
for example Germans usually lack nationalism and are painfully political correct.
The average german has a very anti-right attitude and some dont even make difference between their real countrymen and immigrants anymore. There are exeptions of course. Also the strange Thing is that all These things started about 30 years ago, and become worse with every year.

Even if austrian identity may me a Invention, they still have a strong national Feeling today.


Thats just some of my thoughts,

[Shuffle]

Yeah, maybe because we learnt something of our history, while the Austrians tended to forget it fast or put it aside as fast as possible? Amnesia is an integral part of Austrian identity imho.

[Diërker]

FPÖ is rather 'too' radical, I would see SPÖ

[Stears]

I cant understand why did you cite Hungary as part of Austria. Hungarians have always fought successfully to defend the separate Hungarian state, thus Kingdom of Hungary didn't became part of Austria.

[Stears]

The Habsburg monarch ruled as Emperor of Austria[12] over the western and northern half of the country that was the Austrian Empire (Cisleithania or "Lands represented in the Imperial Council")[13] and as King of Hungary[12] over the Kingdom of Hungary (Transleithania or "Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen").[13] Each enjoyed considerable sovereignty with only a few joint affairs (principally foreign relations and defence).[14]

Certain regions, such as Polish Galicia within Cisleithania and Croatia within Hungary, enjoyed autonomous status, each with its own unique governmental structures (see: Polish Autonomy in Galicia and Croatian–Hungarian Settlement).

The division between Austria and Hungary was so marked that there was no common citizenship: one was either an Austrian citizen or a Hungarian citizen, never both.[15][16] This also meant that there were always separate Austrian and Hungarian passports, never a common one.[17][18]

The Empire of Austria and the Kingdom of Hungary had always maintained separate parliaments: the Imperial Council (Austria) and the Diet of Hungary. Except for the Pragmatic Sanction of 1713, common laws never existed in the Empire of Austria and the Kingdom of Hungary. All laws, even those with identical content such as the compromise of 1867, had to pass the parliaments of both Vienna and Budapest.


The administration and government of the Kingdom of Hungary (between 1527 and 1848) were not united with the administration and government structure of the Austrian Empire. Hungary's central government structures remained well separated from the imperial government: the two were linked largely in the person of the common monarch. The country was governed by the Council of Liutenancy of Hungary (the Gubernium) - located in Pressburg and later in Pest - and by the Hungarian Royal Court Chancellery in Vienna.[19] The Hungarian government and Hungarian parliament were suspended after the Hungarian revolution of 1848, and they regained their former status after the Austro-Hungarian Compromise in 1867.

[Musso]

Austrians don't think they are Germans because somebody said they were Austrians. They didn't choose to be Austrians. They chose to be Germans, but they were not allowed to be part of Germany. So now they believe they are Austrians. Otherwise they would have to admit to themselves they have no say what country they will be part of.

So Austrians think they are Austrians because they can't be part of Germany? I think that's a bit far fetched.


Austrians are Germans, that's a fact. I too have a German and 'Austrian' family background but there's not the slightest difference between the two elements. :)

Austrians could be called 'South-Bavarians'. Because Bavaria and Austria share the same dialects, the same culture, the same traditions and are of the same kind (which is a feeling you have when you're socializing with them). Their ethnogenesis is one.

These maps show that the Dukedom of Bavaria incorporated huge parts of today's Austria AND South Tyrol!
Old borders in red
Current borders in yellow

http://wwws.phil.uni-passau.de/histhw/TutBay/karte_bayern.jpg


Bavaria in 976 reached the mediterranean sea.

http://1.2.3.10/bmi/www.lechrain-geschichte.de/pictures/SDG_Voewdg_Bayern%20bis%20976.jpg

An another map of that time.

http://1.2.3.10/bmi/upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Bayern_im_10.Jh.png

The only Austrians who aren't Bavarians are the ones from the state of Vorarlberg. They are Alemannic and are more similar to Swabians and Swiss-Germans.

North Germans, Bavarians, Swiss Germans, Austrians, etc. are all part of a wider Germanic family. That being said, Bavarians have a German regional identity, while Austrians have a different national identity. That's the main difference.


Breaking news: Bascically all parts of Germany, the German Empire, or the Holy Roman Empire were or are compared to other countries way more independent and autonomous.
It wasn’t an economic Bund, it was a political and military one.

Strange that they called it “German Dualism” and that Austria was part of something as a “German Federation” if they felt so different huh?

Yeah, because that totally makes sense. They wanted to call themselves “Deutschösterreich” because they felt that they were Germans.

And?

And that is what is so damn wrong about it: Not After 1806, not after 1866, not after 1871, not after 1919 Austrians saw themselves as different from the rest of Germany. Only after the loss of the Second World War Austrians began to see themselves as different from the rest of Germany, not matter how they or you want to alter history.
From an article about South Tyrol:

Translate it by yourself
Austrians are basically Bavarians, not the other way around.

The German Confederation was a very weak union. It wasn't a strong state at all. That's what I was saying. For that reason it collapsed so easily. Yes Austrians were part of the wider Germanic family, they speak German after all. What I'm arguing is that a separate Austrian identity developed over time and now, there exists a separate Austrian identity, while being part of the wider Germanic family with Germans, Swiss Germans, and so forth. You go to Austria people refer to their nation as Austrian, their culture as Austrian, there is obviously a separate Austrian identity that exists.

[Breedingvariety]

So Austrians think they are Austrians because they can't be part of Germany? I think that's a bit far fetched.
No, that's spot on.

Austrians were not allowed to become part of Germany twice after world wars. I would guess even during Austro- Hungarian Empire most German Austrians would have wanted to be part of Germany.

They had no choice other than to be Austrians, so now they imagine they chose to be Austrians. No, they were told to be Austrians.

[Musso]

No, that's spot on.

Austrians were not allowed to become part of Germany twice after world wars. I would guess even during Austro- Hungarian Empire most German Austrians would have wanted to be part of Germany.

They had no choice other than to be Austrians, so now they imagine they chose to be Austrians. No, they were told to be Austrians.

Political conflicts create identities. If Austrians somehow stayed part of the German Empire early on, and remained like a region, like Bavaria is, Austrian identity would be a regional one. However, given how history played out, the Austrian identity developed into a separate national one. Austrians don't refer to themselves as Austrians just because they can't be part of Germany. Furthermore, most Austrians don't want to be part of Germany nor be labelled as Germans nowadays.

[blogen]

Political conflicts create identities. If Austrians somehow stayed part of the German Empire early on, and remained like a region, like Bavaria is, Austrian identity would be a regional one. However, given how history played out, the Austrian identity developed into a separate national one. Austrians don't refer to themselves as Austrians just because they can't be part of Germany. Furthermore, most Austrians don't want to be part of Germany nor be labelled as Germans nowadays.

The Napoleonic wars was the source of the modern Austrian national identity. Basically this serie of wars created the present Austrian nation.

[Abeja]

I just deleted the utter nonsense of Abeja and the responses to that garbage. :)


FPÖ. But I think the Rekos were a very good and intelligent idea. Ewald Stadler is a man of great wits and knowledge. :) But they didn't do well in the European elections. :(

I think the best minds of FPÖ, BZÖ and Rekos should unite and create a new party. There were even some few good, but a bit too naive people in Liste Stronach...:eek:

What kind of german trash would thumb down the map of the Third Reich, of wich your ancestors gave the blood to guarantee the survival of your ungrateful ass?
Your poor opinion and weltanschauung is just rubbish, nothing more nothing less. Kill yourself and don't embarass your ancestors anymore.

[LightHouse89]

Hummel hummel is probably more your area. :) But, yes, it's probably because the culture is much the same, the prices are bit more friendly and it's right around the corner. It's known territory.

I will say I am shocked a Dutchman is open to the idea of Pan-Germanism.... I am not against it. I do think of the dutch as being very similar to Germans/Austrians/Swiss people culturally.

[LightHouse89]

Well, Austria was always multi-ethnic, so naturally Austrians identified with their German language and Germanic culture in comparison with Hungarian and Slavic folk. Austrians, Swiss Germans, and Germany's Germans are all part of a bigger German family, but saying everyone is German and ignoring the separate identities that these groups have is not fair either. If Austrians as a nation identify themselves as Austrian in their identity, they have a right to that.

they have small regional identities but it would be similar to maybe Slavs in the sense where religious some are different and some small cultural differences but essentially they are the same... I mean a Bavarian has more in common with a Nederlander than an Irish person [except for religion].

[Musso]

they have small regional identities but it would be similar to maybe Slavs in the sense where religious some are different and some small cultural differences but essentially they are the same... I mean a Bavarian has more in common with a Nederlander than an Irish person [except for religion].

It's like Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians, they all are similar and part of the larger Baltic family, but they have differing National identities which sets them apart.

Sames goes for several Balkan nations and I'm sure there are many more examples.

[The Lawspeaker]

I will say I am shocked a Dutchman is open to the idea of Pan-Germanism.... I am not against it. I do think of the dutch as being very similar to Germans/Austrians/Swiss people culturally.

Why shocked ?

[Diërker]

What kind of german trash would thumb down the map of the Third Reich, of wich your ancestors gave the blood to guarantee the survival of your ungrateful ass?
Your poor opinion and weltanschauung is just rubbish, nothing more nothing less. Kill yourself and don't embarass your ancestors anymore.

That is very ignorant, not all Germans were supporters of the NSDAP, some were, some were not. They ruined German culture, by creating there own idealogy of Nazism, that was rude to write...

[Diërker]

I will say I am shocked a Dutchman is open to the idea of Pan-Germanism.... I am not against it. I do think of the dutch as being very similar to Germans/Austrians/Swiss people culturally.

Not really that surprising, Dutch are Germanic, I have Dutch in me aswell, on ancestorial side that came from prussia, apparently they had dutch in them.. i understand and can speak dutch no problem.

[Abeja]

That is very ignorant, not all Germans were supporters of the NSDAP, some were, some were not. They ruined German culture, by creating there own idealogy of Nazism, that was rude to write...

Yeah there are always traiotors, but majority were national socialists in their hearts, and rightfully so. Just compare the pathetic Weimar Republic to the Third Reich, it was basically superior in let's say just everything.

[Azalea]

As i see it, Germans, and Germanics :valkyrie: in general, like to separate from each other ....The image i have in my head is that Germans-Austrians-Dutch are exactly the same nation http://smileys.emoticonsonly.com/emoticons/g/go_team-2389.gif. Then those three along with Sweden, Denmark and Norway are all Germanics and close related to each other :grouphug: (If not again the same nation). Now as to why they like to be separated :stop....i can only imagine due to historical reasons rather than really national ones :noidea:.

Germans and Austrians, yeah. But the Dutch? Not so much. Germany and Austria are much closer to each other than they are to the Netherlands. Talking about these three nations as 'exactly the same' doesn't make sence.

[The Lawspeaker]

Germans and Austrians, yeah. But the Dutch? Not so much. Germany and Austria are much closer to each other than they are to the Netherlands. Talking about these three nations as 'exactly the same' doesn't make sence.

I disagree. 80 percent of our decisions are taken in regards to the German economy, anyway, and The Hague is a dead weight that is just in the way. And the same goes for Brussels.

[King Claus]

Lol! Germans and Austrians are defnitely not the same. There's probably some overlapping between south Germany and Austra, but at the same time North Germans are very different from south Germans.

[The Lawspeaker]

Lol! Germans and Austrians are defnitely not the same. There's probably some overlapping between south Germany and Austra, but at the same time North Germans are very different from south Germans.

Yes.. and there are also differences between Groningen and Limburg. Between Twente and Zeeland. Your point ?

[Abeja]

I disagree. 80 percent of our decisions are taken in regards to EU-USA, anyway, and The Hague is a dead weight that is just in the way. And the same goes for Brussels.

Fixed for your poor brain.

[King Claus]

Yes.. and there are also differences between Groningen and Limburg. Between Twente and Zeeland. Your point ?

Read the thread title and the poll question:picard2:

[The Lawspeaker]

Read the thread title and the poll question:picard2:

Do you dare argue that the Netherlands is not a country as based on your assumptions regarding Austria and Germany ?

[Azalea]

I disagree. 80 percent of our decisions are taken in regards to the German economy, anyway, and The Hague is a dead weight that is just in the way. And the same goes for Brussels.

I wasn't talking about politics but ethnics. Austrians are not only Germanic but also simply German. The Dutch on the other hand are not. This is why I don't believe that you can not say that Germans-Austrians-Dutch are the exact same people.

[LightHouse89]

Not really that surprising, Dutch are Germanic, I have Dutch in me aswell, on ancestorial side that came from prussia, apparently they had dutch in them.. i understand and can speak dutch no problem.

Amish people Dutch/German.....they still speak the old language and call people like me Anglo-Saxon/English men.....although in Boston they would get an ear full from the Irish/Scots....although Protestants here consider themselves Anglo-Saxon [even if they are scots or irish].

[The Lawspeaker]

I wasn't talking about politics but ethnics. Austrians are not only Germanic but also simply German. The Dutch on the other hand are not. This is why I don't believe that you can not say that Germans-Austrians-Dutch are the exact same people.

A quick look in the history book would tell you a different story: the fact is that the dialect you're speaking yourself (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limburgish_language#History_and_classification) is a continuum that is spoken from well into Belgium all the way to the banks of the River Rhine (and in some areas it even crosses it). Diets (Middle Dutch) was basically indistinguishable from German for most of its history and those varieties that did exist were dialect based. In fact both High German and Standard Dutch are very artificial, political, languages.

[LightHouse89]

I wasn't talking about politics but ethnics. Austrians are not only Germanic but also simply German. The Dutch on the other hand are not. This is why I don't believe that you can not say that Germans-Austrians-Dutch are the exact same people.

They are though.....Germans extensively settled in Austria and form their own regional identity.

[Azalea]

They are though.....Germans extensively settled in Austria and form their own regional identity.

Who are? Germans and Austrians? Or Germans, Austrians and the Dutch?

[Azalea]

A quick look in the history book would tell you a different story: the fact is that the dialect you're speaking yourself is a continuum that is spoken from well into Belgium until the borders of the River Rhine. Diets (Middle Dutch) was basically indistinguishable from German for most of its history and those varieties that did exist were dialect based. In fact both High German and Standard Dutch are very artificial, political, languages.

The Dutch identity goes back much further in time than the Austrian identity. The Dutch have been Dutch, their own separate ethnic group with their own identity and Empires for a much longer time than the Austrians have been Austrians. You can always argue about how similar Germans and Dutch are, but you can not argue that Germans, Austrians and the Dutch are the same people. Especially not when you compare Austrians with Germans, and then Germans with the Dutch.

[LightHouse89]

Why shocked ?

I have met dutch people who feel insulted if I call them german....but in all honest to me they are german.

[The Lawspeaker]

I have met dutch people who feel insulted if I call them german....but in all honest to me they are german.

I think that has more to do with 40-45 than anything ethnic. Particularly since German basically played the role that English does today. Most people before '40 would have learned German before learning English.

[The Lawspeaker]

The Dutch identity goes back much further in time than the Austrian identity. The Dutch have been Dutch, their own separate ethnic group with their own identity and Empires for a much longer time than the Austrians have been Austrians. You can always argue about how similar Germans and Dutch are, but you can not argue that Germans, Austrians and the Dutch are the same people. Especially not when you compare Austrians with Germans, and then Germans with the Dutch.

You need to use facts here. When does that separate identity start ? If we are to look at the Middle Ages everything was still very pointing at the Rhine Area in what is now Germany: both art, religion, trade and politics.

I will go even further than that: Franken, Friezen en Saksen. The building blocks of this country. Do you think there is a magic line that separates them from the Saxons in Lower Saxony ?

[Azalea]

You need to use facts here. When does that separate identity start ? If we are to look at the Middle Ages everything was still very pointing at the Rhine Area in what is now Germany: both art, religion, trade and politics.

I will go even further than that: Franken, Friezen en Saksen. The building blocks of this country. Do you think there is a magic line that separates them from the Saxons in Lower Saxony ?
The Frisians are in fact closer to the English than they are to the Germans. Would you call them Germans too? Or the English for that matter, why don't you call them Germans also?

The various Germanic groups have separated from each other way too long ago to call all of them Germans. Also, why are the Dutch Germans? Why not call the Germans Dutch? I feel like you think that I am discussing whether the Dutch are Germanic, not German, which I am not. Surely the Dutch are Germanic and I am sure that in the past few centuries, or perhaps the last century even, a lot of Germans have assimilated into the Dutch and vice versa (or the Dutch into the Frisians, Frisians into the Dutch etc.), but this doesn't change the fact that the Dutch identity existed for a longer period of time, much longer than the Austrian. Now I can not pinpoint when exactly the Dutch were mentioned in history as a ethnic group, but it goes quite a while ago (longer than the Austrian).

[The Lawspeaker]

Die Niederlande (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niederlande) gehören wie Deutschland zum germanischen Siedlungsgebiet in Mitteleuropa. Ihre Bewohner waren und sind in der großen Mehrzahl Sprecher westgermanischer Sprachen (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westgermanische_Sprachen). Das Gebiet der heutigen Niederlande wurde staatlich zunächst Teil des Frankenreiches und später des Heiligen Römischen Reiches (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heiliges_R%C3%B6misches_Reich). Im Laufe der Frühen Neuzeit (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%BChe_Neuzeit) entwickelte sich langsam ein Eigenbewusstsein, das Grundlage für die spätere Entwicklung hin zu einem eigenen niederländischen Staat wurde. Wichtig dafür waren der wirtschaftliche Aufschwung der betreffenden Gebiete und der zunehmende machtpolitische Einfluss der Habsburger (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habsburg). Unter deren spanischer Linie gelangten die Niederlande unter spanische Herrschaft. Der niederländische Freiheitskampf gegen die spanischen Habsburger seit 1568 mündete in die offizielle Unabhängigkeit der (nördlichen) Niederlande vom Reich im Jahre 1648 (Westfälischer Frieden (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westf%C3%A4lischer_Frieden)).
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsch-niederl%C3%A4ndische_Beziehungen#Geschichte

Not as old as you think it is... the Early Modern Period 1350-1550 and the Netherlands only obtained its de jure independence in 1648. De facto, of course, we had been there since the 1590s.

[The Lawspeaker]

The Frisians are in fact closer to the English than they are to the Germans. Would you call them Germans too? Or the English for that matter, why don't you call them Germans also?

The various Germanic groups have separated from each other way too long ago to call all of them Germans. Also, why are the Dutch Germans? Why not call the Germans Dutch? I feel like you think that I am discussing whether the Dutch are Germanic, not German, which I am not. Surely the Dutch are Germanic and I am sure that in the past few centuries, or perhaps the last century even, a lot of Germans have assimilated into the Dutch and vice versa (or the Dutch into the Frisians, Frisians into the Dutch etc.), but this doesn't change the fact that the Dutch identity existed for a longer period of time, much longer than the Austrian. Now I can not pinpoint when exactly the Dutch were mentioned in history as a ethnic group, but it goes quite a while ago (longer than the Austrian).
The Frisians are a different class in their own right, yes, but the rest of us are not. The Dutch identity itself was a regional one (Hollander, Utrechter etc.) but a real national identity as what we have today is even newer: that's a 19th century, Orangist thing. The identity that we had developed before that doesn't stretch beyond the Early Modern Period. If anything the Dutch themselves are an offshoot of the Germans - like a branch that developed out of it and in themselves a German people.

[Azalea]

That's long enough for the Dutch identity not to be ignored and to be respected. Calling the Dutch German is idiotic IMO. Don't be surprised if you get negative reactions from the Dutch when you don't respect their identity and call them German (for those Americans here who think they can just ignore the history and identity of the Dutch people).

[The Lawspeaker]

That's long enough for the Dutch identity not to be ignored and to be respected. Calling the Dutch German is idiotic IMO. Don't be surprised if you get negative reactions from the Dutch when you don't respect their identity and call them German (for those Americans here who think they can just ignore the history and identity of the Dutch people).

Well.. the fact is that we are A German people. Like the Swiss (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_people) are. We're no Berliners, for sure, but we are definitely an offshoot and that some people do not like hearing that because of a war they never even witnessed doesn't make it any less factual. Maybe the comparison to Swiss isn't a bad one at all: like the Swiss we are a Willensnation - a nation out of choice rather than plain ethnicity.

[Abeja]

That's long enough for the Dutch identity not to be ignored and to be respected. Calling the Dutch German is idiotic IMO. Don't be surprised if you get negative reactions from the Dutch when you don't respect their identity and call them German (for those Americans here who think they can just ignore the history and identity of the Dutch people).

You seems to know a lot about Dutch people