Black Soldiers At The Danube - Myth?

[Freomæg]

Forgive the source below, in fact, feel free to disregard it all together. I've heard mention here and there of Roman soldiers of African origin being stationed along the Danube, up into Germany and having a genetic impact on the local population. Anyone know more about this? Is it significant or sensationalism?

I thought I'd better post some kind of source, but couldn't quickly find anything better than this (it'd probably be hard to find anything worse, however).


Schwarze Deutsche or Black Germans, found along the Danube River in Austria and Germany, in the Black Forest and, to a lesser extent, along the Rhine River, have dark hair and eyes, unlike the fairer people both north and south of them. Their descendants in America may be called either Black Dutch or Black German. The origin of their dark coloration is ancient, from the Roman army in the third and fourth centuries, C.E. The Roman army of this time period was mostly made up of German mercenary soldiers, but along the German border, the Romans preferred to station non-Germans. The army on the Danube was largely drawn from Numidian and Nubian soldiers, especially Garamante Numidians. The Garamante (called Tubu now) were Black Africans from the central Sahara.
Rastafarian Views on Life, Politics and Social Issues (http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/black-germansblack-dutch-african-genes-in-germania/)

[Rasvalg]

I see that you got your info from a Rasta site, the same people that believe that their dreadlocks are an antenna and give them special powers. The only reason that they used the Black Forest is that it had the word black in it.

[Freomæg]

Please re-read my explanation for the source Rasvalg. I put absolutely NO stock in the source whatsoever, but it is a legend I've read mention of in several (more credible) places. Ironically (and somewhat unsurprisingly), it's the above Rasta source which goes into the most depth. I'm simply asking if anyone knows more about this myth.

[Agrippa]

From a historical point of view its possible that darker Europids, probably even single Negroids came as soldiers to Central Europe, yet they left, if they even existed, no trace behind and the myth is crap.

From a biological point of view think about people having 1/16 of Negroid genetic heritage, now how much of it is recognisable in most cases? Exactly, nothing is.
Now think of a population which was even at that time fairly large and all the tribes and people coming in the region afterwards - of Europid racial stock - now how much can be left, of small groups of Negroid soldiers, which, with highest certainty, never left a significant racial footstep there, not even in the Roman times now thousands of years ago?

So forget about that. There Roman settlements of some importants and even earlier Mediterranid intrusions from the Mesolithic and Neolithic times. So all darker elements in Southern Germany can be very well explained by the known racial movements of Europid people in prehistory and history. The whole idea, especially widespread in English speaking countries, that every darker hair, eye and skin coloration, complexion in general, being associated with Negroid influences is so ridiculous, that one can only laugh about it. Yet it might come from, especially in the USA, the hystery which came up with the one drop rule and idea of "only blond and blue eyed Anglo-Saxon Protestant Whites" in some circles, which is a local phenomenon not rooted in reality.

The myth is even more stupid than explaining the darker Irish with Negroid influences...

[Cato]

So, even if it is true, after 80-85 generations- what does it really matter?

[strongmagic]

From a historical point of view its possible that darker Europids, probably even single Negroids came as soldiers to Central Europe, yet they left, if they even existed, no trace behind and the myth is crap.

From a biological point of view think about people having 1/16 of Negroid genetic heritage, now how much of it is recognisable in most cases? Exactly, nothing is.
Now think of a population which was even at that time fairly large and all the tribes and people coming in the region afterwards - of Europid racial stock - now how much can be left, of small groups of Negroid soldiers, which, with highest certainty, never left a significant racial footstep there, not even in the Roman times now thousands of years ago?

So forget about that. There Roman settlements of some importants and even earlier Mediterranid intrusions from the Mesolithic and Neolithic times. So all darker elements in Southern Germany can be very well explained by the known racial movements of Europid people in prehistory and history. The whole idea, especially widespread in English speaking countries, that every darker hair, eye and skin coloration, complexion in general, being associated with Negroid influences is so ridiculous, that one can only laugh about it. Yet it might come from, especially in the USA, the hystery which came up with the one drop rule and idea of "only blond and blue eyed Anglo-Saxon Protestant Whites" in some circles, which is a local phenomenon not rooted in reality.

The myth is even more stupid than explaining the darker Irish with Negroid influences...

I think it is ridiculous granted that many people with partial African Ancestry will often display features of blonde hair if the majority of their European Ancestors do. For example someone who is 3/4 Nordic blonde swede and 1/4 nigerian will probably have blonde hair if they had 3 blonde grandparents and one African one.

[Svarog]

I'd rather stay out of the genetic influence on the locals and such discussion but there were Black African soldiers stationed along the Danube mostly protecting the borders of the empire, Carthaginians and Nubinians mostly, however, I do doubt that they did mix with anyone and even if they did, it was in such a small numbers that it is ridiculous to even talk about some major impact on the gene make up of the people there. Myth also says that survivors of Carthaginian troops that actually fought Romans also settled in Europe, Italy and Alps (I guess Slovenia and Switzerland?), remains of the elephants were also found in the Alps and few other parts of Europe, theory1: War elephants that Hannibal brought in his conquest/war with Rome, theory2: Roman war elephants. So, yeah, were there black soldiers in Europe, that's for sure, did they influence on some possible gene make up of the locals, that's really ridiculous.

[Libertas]

Roman soldiers of Carthaginian and Numidian (not Nubians) origin were North African not Black African.

[t3ddyt3ddy]

A few years ago, a Belgium wrote about Hitler's y-haplotype suggesting that its origin lay in North Africa. Whereupon some sensationalist claimed his paternal DNA was of Jewish origin. Of course, this was pure wishful thinking on their part. It was later revealed that 17% of Austrians shared Adolf's heritage. This could or would confirm the presence of the Numidian Legionnaires along the Danube genetically.

P.S.: always look to science for possible answers.

[Ctwentysevenj]

According to the British National archives there were black roman soldiers in Britain



Black Moors in Scotland

Africans have been present in Europe from classical times. In the 2nd and 3rd centuries Roman soldiers of African origin served in Britain, and some stayed after their military service ended. According to the historians Fryer, Edwards and Walvin, in the 9th century Viking fleets raided North Africa and Spain, captured Black people, and took them to Britain and Ireland. From the end of the 15th century we begin to see more evidence for the presence of Black Moors in the accounts of the reign of King James IV of Scotland, and later in Elizabethan England.

King James IV (1473-1513) and the Black Moors of his Court

King James IV of Scotland came to the throne in 1488. He was an able and visionary monarch whose administration united and maintained order in the Scottish highlands and lowlands. He encouraged manufacturing and shipbuilding, and created a navy. James IV also renewed Scotland's alliance with France, although in 1503 he took an English wife, Margaret Tudor, daughter of Henry VII of England.

James was a popular, fun-loving king with many interests. Many Black Moors were present at his court. Some worked as servants or (possibly) slaves, but others seem to have been invited guests or musicians. We know that he courted Margaret with lute and clavichord recitals and took her out hunting and playing sports.




The King Provides Clothes
for the Party
Document | Transcript

After their marriage, the king's Lord High Treasurer's accounts provide numerous entries to show how much he enjoyed lively entertainment, employing foreign minstrels from Italy and elsewhere. King James was generous to all kinds of people, including Black Moors, as the following entries from the Treasurer's accounts demonstrate:

To celebrate Shrove Tuesday in 1505, several Africans including a 'taubronar' (drummer) and a choreographer were present in Edinburgh. Twelve dancers (including Italians) performed in specially made black-and-white costumes costing £13 2s 10d. Was this the origin of Morris (Moorish) dancing?

In 1504-5 the 'Moryen' taubronar was paid 28 shillings to allow his taubroun (drum) to be painted.

James bought a horse at a cost of £4 4s for this drummer, who accompanied him when he toured his northern domains.

The King Requests an
Audience with a Black Baby
Document | Transcript
Moor women were also mentioned in the Treasurer's accounts. It is unclear whether or not they were servants, since they were showered with items such as gowns of satin, ribbons, slippers and gloves, paid for by the king.

Entries that refer to Moor women include:

'Blak Elene' or 'Elen More' was given five French crowns in 1512.

A 'blak madin' who attended Queen Margaret was given four-and-a-quarter ells (just over five yards) of French russet.

'Blak Margaret' was given a gown costing 48s in 1513.

'Two blak ladies' staying at the Scottish Court were presented with 10 French crowns as a New Year gift at a cost of £7.

In 1527, one item simply said ' to Helenor, the blak moir - 60 shillings' .
After James IV's death at Flodden in 1513 during the Franco-Scottish invasion of England, fewer references to Africans appear in the accounts. Interestingly, however, in 1594, during the reign of James VI, a richly attired Black Moor was paid to help pull the chariots during celebrations to mark the birth of James's eldest son, Henry Frederick. Nothing more is known about this man except that he lived in Edinburgh.

For more on James IV and Margaret Tudor, see:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/utk/scotland/marriage.htm

[t3ddyt3ddy]

Correction: 9% of Austrians and German's males belong to the same E1b1b Y-haplotype family as Adolf Hitler. It is predominates in Ethiopians, Berbers and Jews. 80% of those Austrians and Germans in this group have no Jewish ancestry!

[Ctwentysevenj]

I couldn't find anything on the Internet regarding black roman soldiers at the Danube.

[Scholarios]

Forgive the source below, in fact, feel free to disregard it all together. I've heard mention here and there of Roman soldiers of African origin being stationed along the Danube, up into Germany and having a genetic impact on the local population. Anyone know more about this? Is it significant or sensationalism?

I thought I'd better post some kind of source, but couldn't quickly find anything better than this (it'd probably be hard to find anything worse, however).


Rastafarian Views on Life, Politics and Social Issues (http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/black-germansblack-dutch-african-genes-in-germania/)


The so-called " black germans,' were Sindi, related to gypsies, not Africans. Along the Rhineland where French Africans occupied after WWI were French African blacks and their offspring with German women. The so-called " Rhineland bastards" who were largely sterilized by the third Reich.

[Anglojew]

Arnold "Blacknigger" Schwarzenegger is clearly a descendant