Spain, Portugal, Granada [Split from the FUBAR thread]

[Fred]

Italians only started immigrating to South America after the second half on nineteen century basically.I read somewhere that the Sicilians, Corsicans, Sardinians and Balearans were not allowed to the colonies. Is this true? Some have said that only the crypto-Jews and crypto-Muslims were the chief body of colonists, but the administrators were all Visigoths. I know of a few Italian missionaries and navigators, most of them famous, of course.:rolleyes:

[Matritensis]

Some have said that only the crypto-Jews and crypto-Muslims were the chief body of colonists, but the administrators were all Visigoths.

You're grossly mixing dates here,by a margin of several centuries.

[Fred]

I suppose you deny the Visigodo identification with Spain?

[Matritensis]

The Visigoths had their role when they had it(450 AD aprox--711 AD) They were always a minority and then got diluted in the Hispano-Roman majority.We are not Visigoths any more than we are Moors...

[Kadu]

I read somewhere that the Sicilians, Corsicans, Sardinians and Balearans were not allowed to the colonies. Is this true? Some have said that only the crypto-Jews and crypto-Muslims were the chief body of colonists, but the administrators were all Visigoths. I know of a few Italian missionaries and navigators, most of them famous, of course.:rolleyes:

Well in the very beggining they sent all personae non grata to the new world, and among them were crypto-jews, witches, homosexuals, sinful priests, con artists, peasants etc...
The Men incharge of the captaincies were Noble men but everybody was Portuguese there were no Visigoths by then.
Dunno about any kind of restriction toward Italians during Colonial times but in 1930, the Brazilian President Getúlio Vargas imposed an immigration law which stipulated strict quotes of entrance except for Portuguese immigrants.

[Fred]

The Visigoths had their role when they had it(450 AD aprox--711 AD) They were always a minority and then got diluted in the Hispano-Roman majority.We are not Visigoths any more than we are Moors...If Spain is the amalgamation of Castile, Leon, Aragon, Navarre and Granada, then which one is the primary nation of Spain and what is the antecessor of that nation? I know that France's la Marca Hispanica is the basis for Spain, but which nation of Spain is the most direct heir?


Well in the very beggining they sent all personae non grata to the new world, and among them were crypto-jews, witches, homosexuals, sinful priests, con artists, peasants etc...
The Men incharge of the captaincies were Noble men but everybody was Portuguese there were no Visigoths by then.
Dunno about any kind of restriction toward Italians during Colonial times but in 1930, the Brazilian President Getúlio Vargas imposed an immigration law which stipulated strict quotes of entrance except for Portuguese immigrants.I find it funny that Portugal is actually an ex-county of France, an offshoot of Burgundy.

[Kadu]

I find it funny that Portugal is actually an ex-county of France, an offshoot of Burgundy.

Not really...


In 1093 the county of Portugal was offered by Alfonso VI of León and Castile to Henry of Burgundy (who gave his aid in the Reconquista and who also received the hand of Teresa of León, the king's daughter, in marriage). Henry's territories were larger than Nuno II's, including the territories of the old County of Coimbra, parts of Trás-os-Montes e Alto Douro and even the south of Galicia. This county would evolve in 1139 into the Kingdom of Portugal under Henry of Burgundy's son, Afonso Henriques.

Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_Portugal

[Fred]

Not really...



Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_of_PortugalThe French intervention made sure that Spain and Portugal would never be reunited into one body, despite the best efforts of Philip. It would make much more sense, if Portugal was on the Spanish coat of arms and Granada was a separate country, perhaps joined to Gibraltar as an anomalous no-man's land for tourists and the UN office rather than Geneva.:D I'd still keep the Bourbon lily on the Spanish arms. The Bonaparte arms of Plvs Vltra could go with the Granada/Gibraltar country.

[Comte Arnau]

If Spain is the amalgamation of Castile, Leon, Aragon, Navarre and Granada, then which one is the primary nation of Spain and what is the antecessor of that nation? I know that France's la Marca Hispanica is the basis for Spain, but which nation of Spain is the most direct heir?


Spain is not the amalgamation of it. Spain is basically the expansion of Castile, started in the 15th century and finished in the 18th century. Some nations other than Castile in the peninsula have been gradually assimilated, like Leon and Aragon. Others still resist, who knows for how long.

The Hispanic March has actually nothing to do with the basis for Spain. Hispanic in that name just means Iberian. Actually, the Hispanic March is the basis for Catalonia and Aragon. (Paradoxically, though, the word español was born there, in the Pyrenees)

Even Spanish nationalists know at heart that the core of their nation is Castile.

[Damião de Góis]

I find it funny that Portugal is actually an ex-county of France, an offshoot of Burgundy.

LOL

[Fred]

Spain is not the amalgamation of it. Spain is basically the expansion of Castile, started in the 15th century and finished in the 18th century. Some nations other than Castile in the peninsula have been gradually assimilated, like Leon and Aragon. Others still resist, who knows for how long.

The Hispanic March has actually nothing to do with the basis for Spain. Hispanic in that name just means Iberian. Actually, the Hispanic March is the basis for Catalonia and Aragon. (Paradoxically, though, the word español was born there, in the Pyrenees)

Even Spanish nationalists know at heart that the core of their nation is Castile.The same situation exists in Britain with respect to England. I knew the answer to this question, but felt like testing the waters.


LOLWell, it is funny. Portugal is an artificially constructed country as it exists separate from Spain, just as Granada is artificially combined with Castilian Spain.;)

[Comte Arnau]

Portugal is an artificially constructed country as it exists separate from Spain, just as Granada is artificially combined with Castilian Spain.;)

All countries are artificially constructed.

Portugal is one of the few European countries that make sense, actually, along with Iceland and a few others.

[Fred]

All countries are artificially constructed.

Portugal is one of the few European countries that make sense, actually, along with Iceland and a few others.Well, Portugal is its own country without compromise or blurred edges, except for the fact that its separate nature from Castile and the rest, barring Granada, is unnatural and probably speaks more to the historical progression of Reconquista being done by two separate monarchies.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with Iceland as it existed with a monarchic government. In fact, that is what it should be, with the Faroes and Greenland as part of an enlarged kingdom...and a formal alliance with Norway.

[Comte Arnau]

Well, Portugal is its own country without compromise or blurred edges, except for the fact that its separate nature from Castile and the rest, barring Granada, is unnatural and probably speaks more to the historical progression of Reconquista being done by two separate monarchies..

But how is it unnatural? Geographically?

It is true that the Portuguese are closely related to other western Iberians, but their ethnicity is clearly distinct, at least since almost a thousand years. And from an ethnic point of view, the country is homogenous, if we exclude a little area around Miranda, ethnically Leonese.

If anything, Galicia and Olivença should be a part of the country. (Falkata would love it. :D)

[Damião de Góis]

Well, it is funny. Portugal is an artificially constructed country as it exists separate from Spain, just as Granada is artificially combined with Castilian Spain.;)

Can you tell me where Spain was when Portugal was founded in 1143 ?

[Fred]

But how is it unnatural? Geographically?

It is true that the Portuguese are closely related to other western Iberians, but their ethnicity is clearly distinct, at least since almost a thousand years. And from an ethnic point of view, the country is homogenous, if we exclude a little area around Miranda, ethnically Leonese.

If anything, Galicia and Olivença should be a part of the country. (Falkata would love it. :D)Does Granada have more connection with Spain, or does Portugal?


Can you tell me where Spain was when Portugal was founded in 1143 ?The House of Trastamara, or Ivrea, comes from Burgundy just like the Capetian founders of Portugal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anscarids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Burgundy

[Damião de Góis]

The House of Trastamara, or Ivrea, comes from Burgundy just like the Capetian founders of Portugal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anscarids
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Burgundy

The founder of Portugal and our first king was the son of a french count and a spanish princess. He was born in the north of Portugal. I fail to see how he was
from that House of Burgundy.

[Kadu]

The founder of Portugal and our first king was the son of a french count and a spanish princess. He was born in the north of Portugal. I fail to see how he was
from that House of Burgundy.

Agreed, i would just like to correct that she was Castillian and not Spanish.:)

[Damião de Góis]

Agreed, i would just like to correct that she was Castillian and not Spanish.:)

Kingdom of Leon and Castille :P

[Kadu]

Kingdom of Leon and Castille :P

Actually Teresa of León.

[Comte Arnau]

Does Granada have more connection with Spain, or does Portugal?

All depends on what you understand by connection. Granada was conquered by Castilians at the end of the 15th century and has been Castilianized from then on. I don't think the same can be said of Portugal.

[Fred]

So you agree with the multiculturalists that a full body incorporation of an intact remnant of the Moorish state within Spain, is better for Castile than Portugal?

[Comte Arnau]

So you agree with the multiculturalists that a full body incorporation of an intact remnant of the Moorish state within Spain, is better for Castile than Portugal?

I'm not sure of what you mean by that, but nothing is intact in this planet. Not even my virtue.

[Fred]

I'm not sure of what you mean by that, but nothing is intact in this planet. Not even my virtue.You don't believe Iberia would be better served by Granada as a separate entity? Portugal would be a better substitute for Spain. Hey, if you want, it could even be called Lusitania.:D

[Comte Arnau]

You don't believe Iberia would be better served by Granada as a separate entity?

Well, that's up to Granadines, so I'll leave that for Alana, although I know her answer already :D. Personally, I would much prefer it if the crown of Aragon was still a separate political entity. Or in these days, Catalonia. Things would have been so different in all aspects...

[Amapola]

I read somewhere that the Sicilians, Corsicans, Sardinians and Balearans were not allowed to the colonies. Is this true? Some have said that only the crypto-Jews and crypto-Muslims were the chief body of colonists, but the administrators were all Visigoths. I know of a few Italian missionaries and navigators, most of them famous, of course.:rolleyes:

Caro amigo,
Why would have the Balearic people from the Crown of Aragon not been allowed to go to the Indies (they were not colonies)?

Actually, it was the Moriscos and Conversos that were not allowed to emigrate instead: Authorities came up with all kind of snags so the Moriscos didn't cross the ocean, although they were not able to prevent it in full, as it was intended. The brivery to the royal officers and the impossibility, in many cases, of checking the particulars must have made notable holes in the nets, of relative efficacy. As far as Judaizers are concerned, all that is well reported by Caro Baroja on "Los judíos en ls España moderna y contemporánea" where it is shown how important figures and, of course, dealers with a good position in the colonial society, were pursued and punished with varied types of sentences. Brives and oversights, sure might have permitted a minority to undertake their venture but given that such conditions could have never resulted in a big deal, we understand it's more exaggeration than reality.

The Visigoths? We stopped hearing about the Visigoth Kingdom soon after The Islamic cultural invasion to the peninsula, lest the Kingdom was evoked during the Reconquista with Romantic connotations.

[Fred]

Caro amigo,
Why would have the Balearic people from the Crown of Aragon not been allowed to go to the Indies (they were not colonies)?

Actually, it was the Moriscos and Conversos that were not allowed to emigrate instead: Authorities came up with all kind of snags so the Moriscos didn't cross the ocean, although they were not able to prevent it in full, as it was intended. The brivery to the royal officers and the impossibility, in many cases, of checking the particulars must have made notable holes in the nets, of relative efficacy. As far as Judaizers are concerned, all that is well reported by Caro Baroja on "Los judíos en ls España moderna y contemporánea" where it is shown how important figures and, of course, dealers with a good position in the colonial society, were pursued and punished with varied types of sentences. Brives and oversights, sure might have permitted a minority to undertake their venture but given that such conditions could have never resulted in a big deal, we understand it's more exaggeration than reality.

The Visigoths? We stopped hearing about the Visigoth Kingdom soon after The Islamic cultural invasion to the peninsula, lest the Kingdom was evoked during the Reconquista with Romantic connotations.

Well, Falkata mentioned all those supposed criminals in other peoples' migrations...:wink

Yes, I would assume the Visigothic Reconquista is what came to mind. Also, the monarchy was originally Visigothic, but as I stated, became Franco-Burgundian and now Franco-Navarrese.:D

Just so long as it doesn't become Granadine again!:P

[Comte Arnau]

Why would have the Balearic people from the Crown of Aragon not been allowed to go to the Indies (they were not colonies)?


It is still a matter of debate why there were so few people from the Crown of Aragon in the colonization of the Americas. Arguments about the population being lesser or the fact that the Mediterranean was preferred are not that convincing, specially when you're aware of the Phoenician-like tradition of Catalans for trading :D. The truth is that Castilians still saw the Aragonese as foreigners while the House of Habsburg ruled in Spain. Barriers preventing Catalans from trading with the Indies, for instance, would be lifted gradually, long after the first decisive centuries.

[Amapola]

It is still a matter of debate why there were so few people from the Crown of Aragon in the colonization of the Americas. Arguments about the population being lesser or the fact that the Mediterranean was preferred are not that convincing, specially when you're aware of the Phoenician-like tradition of Catalans for trading :D. The truth is that Castilians still saw the Aragonese as foreigners while the House of Habsburg ruled in Spain. Barriers preventing Catalans from trading with the Indies, for instance, would be lifted gradually, long after the first decisive centuries.

There were two economic systems with different interests. The duties system was intact and untouched, therefore all the goods entailed costly taxes between the flow of the both regions. Nothing was done either in order to get a closer economic association between the different kingdoms; on the other hand, two different economic systems still coexisted: the Atlantic Castilian system and the Mediterranean system of the Crown of Aragon.

[Fred]

I am still curious about the exchange between the Italian and Iberian communities during the period in which they were co-ruled.

[Ibericus]

The Visigoths had their role when they had it(450 AD aprox--711 AD) They were always a minority and then got diluted in the Hispano-Roman majority.We are not Visigoths any more than we are Moors...

Wrong. Yes, they were a minority, about 20% , but much more than the Moors , who where about 5%

[antonio]

Can you tell me where Spain was when Portugal was founded in 1143 ?

Spain -Hispania at these times and in original Latin word- was the conglomerate of cultures and ehtnics related along the centuries upon Iberian Peninsula and adjacent lands beyond Pirinees, so, of course, it has an objective existance by then, although not corresponding to a single kingdom or state but several.

BTW, my father, as a Galician, is more related to Portugal people than to ones from the major part of current kingdom of Spain. Even he don't be as assertive as me on that matter:D. Other thing is Galicia being severed from kingdom of Spain to being appended to Republica Portuguesa: this is a blatant nosense from a ridiculous number of radical jerks. But heart has it0s own reasons: so me, in a sport match between Portugal and Spain, would be naturally more keen to support the weaker part, maybe cause I'm getting seriously sick on fucking Catalan progressives currently on charge of the obscene translation -by delegation from PSOEist morons government- of Spanish milenary essences to the Nowhere and Never Land. :mad:


Wrong. Yes, they were a minority, about 20% , but much more than the Moors , who where about 5%

Thirty years of education on "democratic values" brought us all this shit. Maybe time has come to take the infamous and glorious Relation of Goth Kings onto the schools again...even at the surely cost of a savage strike from the pseudoprogressive majority of teachers: good occasion for Police to hit them with iron-kernel balls and sticks in their fucking heads in order their poor brains to be rearranged and their operations resumed for impossible it would seems...or if not arranged, at least reseted to a painless vegetative state. :D

[Comte Arnau]

maybe cause I'm getting seriously sick on fucking Catalan progressives currently on charge of the obscene translation -by delegation from PSOEist morons government- of Spanish milenary essences to the Nowhere and Never Land. :mad:

Then you're on the way to real Spanishness. Every decent Spaniard has a Catalanophobe inside.

[antonio]

Then you're on the way to real Spanishness. Every decent Spaniard has a Catalanophobe inside.

I have mixed emotions about Catalunia and many family ties (maybe including historical ones) with, it though this is not the moment to enumerate them, but also I can tell you many reasons to dispise the XIX-century Catalonia...just 3 arguments to justify my current dislike:

First argument: Is not my fault that the only Western-European country with an above-average whealtiness where a commie and openly proinmigration party is at goverment coalition be Catalunia, and, what is worse, it seems to be a sort of moral concience of the whole goverment.

The second argument is almost a straight consecuence of the first: nobody can deny they have a high level of awareness about their identity as a People, but, was this awareness found in sane and european roots? Ethnic, History, Race...no, my friend, you know very well the only sustainer of Catalonian XXI identity is something as deliquescent as a Romance language which anybody with a half a brain would be able to learn in a year or two, hence converting himself in what they called "Nou Catalans" (vamos, al fin y a la postre, tan catalanes como tú y toda tu estirpe) And, if it was at least a different and definite language what they used to build up the new idea of Catalanity...for at times it seems just the idea, as respectable as discutible, of that defines and severes a good catalan -aka just catalan (both old and new)- from the bad catalans -aka españoles-

Third one has trascendental effects on Spain as a whole: is that the "wealthy" and "cultivate" Catalonia has becoming, for all the progressive jerks around the State, a sort of implicit counterexample of Andalucian PSOist goverment of paro y peonás. If there was not for Catalonia, all the Socialist spanish empire will crumbling in three or four years. So there were left the PP alone, but with their inner blatant corruption, they're not survive their antagonist for much longer.

But, wait a moment before blame Catalonians from all these annoyances? A Spanish inmigrants son (wherever familiar origins he has) are truly a Catalan one? Umm, I'm not sure what to think, maybe it would help me to think in terms of France or Europe and Non-European inmigrant sons, in terms of the infamous banlieus... :D


Pd. Por cierto, no sé que coño hacemos expresándonos en inglés: está visto que, al menos el mío, no mejora ni un ápice con su uso continuado, de hecho creo que va a peor. :D

[Ibericus]

Visca Catalunya ! :thumb001:

[Osweo]

Espana, Catalunia, Galicia, whatever!:
czyJmPgAsYU
:thumbs

[Kadu]

Espana, Catalunia, Galicia, whatever!:
czyJmPgAsYU
:thumbs

What cheesy references you have Osweo. :D:p

here's something much better






Las tierras, las tierras, las tierras de España
las grandes, la sola desierta llanura
galopa caballo cuatralbo, jinete del pueblo
que la tierra es tuya

A galopar, a galopar, hasta enterrarlos en el mar (bis)

A corazón, suenan, suenan, resuenan
las tierras de España en las herraduras
galopa caballo cuatralbo, jinete del pueblo
que la tierra es tuya

A galopar, a galopar, hasta enterrarlos en el mar (bis)

Nadie, nadie, nadie, que enfrente no hay nadie
que es nadie la muerte si va en tu montura
galopa caballo cuatralbo, jinete del pueblo
que la tierra es tuya

A galopar, a galopar, hasta enterrarlos en el mar (bis)

Rafael Alberti





Y13itznYoIw

[Falkata]

Socialist poetry? :D

[Kadu]

Socialist poetry? :D

Is there any other kind?:rotfl

[Amapola]

And you say "cheesy" to Nino Bravo and recommend "that"?!!!
HE-RE-SY!

:D:D

[Kadu]

And you say "cheesy" to Nino Bravo and recommend "that"?!!!
HE-RE-SY!

:D:D

Well just give to an idea to our non-Iberian members and establishing a paralel, I would say that Nino Bravo is to Paco Ibañez as Sonny&Cher are to Bob Dylan.

[Amapola]

Paco Ibañez?
Nino Bravo is mega famous in Spain although his career lasted just 3 years because of his sudden death. Some of his songs are anthems here.

[Kadu]

Nino Bravo is mega famous in Spain although his career lasted just 3 years because of his sudden death. Some of his songs are anthems here.

So is Sid Vicious.:D

[Amapola]

Brave comparison :P

[Osweo]

I like Sonny and Cher. :suomut:

Dylan I don't... :noidea:

[Comte Arnau]

I have mixed emotions about Catalunia and many family ties (maybe including historical ones) with, it though this is not the moment to enumerate them, but also I can tell you many reasons to dispise the XIX-century Catalonia...just 3 arguments to justify my current dislike:

Anyone is entitled to have his own opinion about a country and its people, of course. I don't mind people disliking the Catalans, I actually like it. I've always thought that the day this land is not hated, bad news, because it will mean that it'll have already been assimilated. So long live Catalanophobia. I've traveled all over Spain and it's still deeply rooted, alive and kicking, so I have nothing to worry about. Moreover, Latin Americans who come to Barcelona to find out the city is not as Spanish as they expected become automatically experts in hatred to all Catalan. That's simply great.



Socialist poetry? :D

For patriotic and socialist poetry, nothing like Miguel Hernández.

Nunca medraron los bueyes Never have bulls been docile
en los páramos de España over the plateaus of Spain.
¿ Quién habló de echar un yugo Who mentioned trying to yoke
sobre el cuello de esta raza? the neck of men of this race?
¿ Quién ha puesto al huracán Who has ever yoked a hurricane
jamás ni yugos ni trabas or tried to restrain its thrust?
ni quién al rayo detuvo Who has dared to take a lightning
prisionero en una jaula? prisoner inside a cage?
Asturianos de braveza, Asturians made out of bravery
vascos de piedra blindada, Basques made of armoured stone
valencianos de alegría Valencian people of merriness
y castellanos de alma, and Castilians made of soul,
labrados como la tierra bodies worked as land is worked
y airosos como las alas; bodies graceful as the wings
andaluces de relámpagos, Andalusians made of flashes,
nacidos entre guitarras always born among guitars
y forjados en los yunques always forged upon the anvils
torrenciales de las lágrimas; from the torrents of their tears,
extremeños de centeno, Estremadurans of rye,
gallegos de lluvia y calma, Galicians of rain and calm,
catalanes de firmeza, Catalonians of firmness,
aragoneses de casta, Aragonese of old lineage,
murcianos de dinamita Murcia people of a dynamite
frutalmente propagada, that has been frutally scattered,
leoneses, navarros, dueños Leonese and Navarrese,
del hambre, el sudor y el hacha, lords of hunger, sweat and axe,
reyes de la minería, kings of the mining depths,
señores de la labranza, masters of farming lands,
hombres que entre las raíces, men who from the very roots
como raíces gallardas, just like the brave roots you are,
vais de la vida a la muerte, go straight from life to death,
vais de la nada a la nada: go from nothingness to nothing:
yugos os quieren poner now they want to yoke your necks
gentes de la hierba mala, those who come from lands of weed,
yugos que habréis de dejar may you leave those yokes they want
rotos sobre sus espaldas. ... broken right upon their backs.

[Amapola]

Then you're on the way to real Spanishness. Every decent Spaniard has a Catalanophobe inside.

Certainly every decent Catalanophobe Spaniard is a bad Spanish patriot.

[Amapola]

I like Sonny and Cher. :suomut:

Dylan I don't... :noidea:

Even If I Do like Dylan, the comparison doesn't stand up. The "mythical" feeling that Nino has can't be shared by a long-career artist like Cher, whose styles are also totally different.

[antonio]

Anyone is entitled to have his own opinion about a country and its people, of course. I don't mind people disliking the Catalans, I actually like it. I've always thought that the day this land is not hated, bad news, because it will mean that it'll have already been assimilated. So long live Catalanophobia. I've traveled all over Spain and it's still deeply rooted, alive and kicking, so I have nothing to worry about. Moreover, Latin Americans who come to Barcelona to find out the city is not as Spanish as they expected become automatically experts in hatred to all Catalan. That's simply great.


Two problems that I saw in your point:
1. You miss the due distinction between cultureless haters (in Aragon there's specimens really laughable) and people, like me (a ridiculous minory if you want), who dont like the way Catalonia is been driven, and it has nothing to do with Spain-yes or Spain-not, it's something more deep, more related to the inner-soul of Catalonia by itself.
2. I would say (maybe induced by TV3 shitty propaganda) that there's also a significative number of Latinoamericans automatically stroked and inspired by the singularities of your milenary identity. And, if parents don't, sons will sooner than later will be thanks, of course, the inmersive education policies: based, for what I know, in converting schools in a sort of little fake-Catalonians factories. Now you can choose: European people like me (with another European worth-preserving identities) still saving a dull but respectful distance (mine specially short) with Catalonian culture and identity cause we have another identities , or the wet tongues and full bodies of the Inmigration masses (Latinos...) dressed on Barça t-shirts. BTW what ridiculous scenes of illegal non-European inmigrants voting for Catalonia independence! Can your politicians fall lower than this?

Pd. Finally, parafraseando a Iberia: Visca la Catalunya de sempre!:thumbs up

[Comte Arnau]

Certainly every decent Catalanophobe Spaniard is a bad Spanish patriot.

Patriotism is intricately linked to ethnic nationalism. Inventions like 'Constitutional patriotism' are just an excuse, at least in this peninsula. So you cannot embrace Spanish patriotism without embracing Castilianness. And while Castilianness per se doesn't imply Catalanophobia, it emerges as a necessary tool for self-affirmation. I don't know of any self-declared Spanish patriot who embraces non-Castilian realities as part of his real feelings. They prefer to defend themselves by proclaiming Castilianness as the supposed point of union of all peninsulars. But they hardly really know anything about those other realities. In that sense, without wanting it, I'm even more of a Spanish patriot than them.

[Amapola]

Patriotism is intricately linked to ethnic nationalism. Inventions like 'Constitutional patriotism' are just an excuse, at least in this peninsula. So you cannot embrace Spanish patriotism without embracing Castilianness. And while Castilianness per se doesn't imply Catalanophobia, it emerges as a necessary tool for self-affirmation. I don't know of any self-declared Spanish patriot who embraces non-Castilian realities as part of his real feelings. They prefer to defend themselves by proclaiming Castilianness as the supposed point of union of all peninsulars. But they hardly really know anything about those other realities. In that sense, without wanting it, I'm even more of a Spanish patriot than them.

Actually I am misusing the term "patriot" by calling me a patriot most of the time, as I don't tune in to the modern concepts of "nations". I do feel Castilian (you know my emotions about Andalusia) but also love other realities of the peninsula. I think I rather lean towards the "traditionalist" stance than the patriotic.

[Comte Arnau]

2. I would say (maybe induced by TV3 shitty propaganda)

I'm not going to be the advocate of a TV channel, but it is amazing how so many Spaniards criticize this channel as a tool of Catalan propaganda. If only the rest of local channels in Spain had the same quality! But I guess that the only fact of it being in Catalan is reason enough to call it propagandistic? I also heard people calling it propagandistic because the weather maps show the Catalan-speaking territory. Frankly, is there any real reason to call it propagandistic? Or is it a trend? Because I've watched the rest of local channels, and the quality of the press in them is really lamentable at times. You won't see Hispanophobic news in the Catalan channel as you see Catalanophobic news and comments constantly in other channels, with a total lack of shame and impunity.


that there's also a significative number of Latinoamericans automatically stroked and inspired by the singularities of your milenary identity. And, if parents don't, sons will sooner than later will be thanks, of course, the inmersive education policies: based, for what I know, in converting schools in a sort of little fake-Catalonians factories.

Those fake Catalonian factories, as you call it, will help those people to use the Catalan language in the future, when it becomes necessary for them in order to get a job. If Catalan wasn't the language of teaching and they had the option of doing the whole education in Spanish, they would be in disadvantage later in life with respect to other Catalonians.


Now you can choose: European people like me (with another European worth-preserving identities) still saving a dull but respectful distance (mine specially short) with Catalonian culture and identity cause we have another identities , or the wet tongues and full bodies of the Inmigration masses (Latinos...) dressed on Barça t-shirts.

I welcome anyone who wants to integrate and works for it, that's all I have to say. Actually, I can't understand it in any other way. If it was me who had to go and live in Iceland, I would learn Icelandic from the very first day, even if the language is spoken by less than half a million and anyone understood my English. But I guess that the whole integration issue depends on your personal attitude.


BTW what ridiculous scenes of illegal non-European inmigrants voting for Catalonia independence! Can your politicians fall lower than this?

There you're right. I would only have allowed legal immigrants to vote, even if for an unofficial poll.


Pd. Finally, parafraseando a Iberia: Visca la Catalunya de sempre!:thumbs up

The Catalunya de sempre is lost since the 1700's. It is a new Catalonia we are making, and resisting assimilation from the Spanish first and from the rest of the world now is an exciting experience.

[antonio]

Even If I Do like Dylan, the comparison doesn't stand up. The "mythical" feeling that Nino has can't be shared by a long-career artist like Cher, whose styles are also totally different.

The problem with Nino is that we're suffering from a decade ago a tremendous (dont talk about you, but the fucking spanish media who "don't have measure of the things") overexposure on his songs. When I was a boy I loved them cause they vagely reminds (not a structured memories but a sort of vague feeling) me my first childhood. But after years and years of persistent ruthless "revival"(como molan los 70, que autentico todo!), I don't feel this induced childhoodness no more prefer to ear a song from Cecilia(a lost even worse), Juan Pardo or Perales...just for enumerate three more or less contemporaneus with not so good voices but equal feeling and musical qualities: cause they (and many others) are still more on this merry old times than Nino, brought to the future unellegant manner to submited he and his songs to the fucking overexposure...it's more or less like Gloria Gaynor or similar disco hits, I shot to death with no remorse all these revival jerks (including undesired collateral effects called drags fucking queens) playing bloody songs over and over again.:mad:

Pd. Bob Dylan is great. I'm not his fanboy, but one of the few and last times I feel really upset with a song was at a Carrefour when ambient music started to play (after a sucession of hits for retarded minds) one of his tunes. I recognized Dylan at first verse but dont even remember the title of the song, so when I arrived home, just googled a single word, this word was jokerman.:cool:

[antonio]

Recibido, Ibex, te contestaré mañana con más tiempo. Te podría ahora contestar que no a todo, pero sería un poco frío y desconsiderado, cosa que no mereces :D :thumb001:

[Comte Arnau]

Actually I am misusing the term "patriot" by calling me a patriot most of the time, as I don't tune in to the modern concepts of "nations".

I don't think you're really misusing it. A patriot isn't necessarily a nationalist.


I do feel Castilian (you know my emotions about Andalusia) but also love other realities of the peninsula.

I can understand that you love them, or that people who don't belong to those realities do. I also love other realities of the peninsula, and from outside the peninsula. But it doesn't mean I feel I belong to, or I want them to be willy-nilly part of my idea of nation.


I think I rather lean towards the "traditionalist" stance than the patriotic.

Isn't patriotism a traditionalist way? What is a nation for you?

[Thulsa Doom]

Visca el Catalunya!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTn-VMC-7SE

Sounds good.

[Ibericus]

The propaganda in TV Madrid (manipulated by PP) is heavily Catalanophobic

[Comte Arnau]

Sounds good.

Someone in the forum said before that it sounds a bit commie. Well, if we take into account that the lyrics are based on the Reaper's War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_Revolt), and Catalans then used a sickle to reap, I can see the connection, even if that war was in the 1640's! :D

[antonio]

I'm not going to be the advocate of a TV channel, but it is amazing how so many Spaniards criticize this channel as a tool of Catalan propaganda. If only the rest of local channels in Spain had the same quality! But I guess that the only fact of it being in Catalan is reason enough to call it propagandistic? I also heard people calling it propagandistic because the weather maps show the Catalan-speaking territory. Frankly, is there any real reason to call it propagandistic? Or is it a trend? Because I've watched the rest of local channels, and the quality of the press in them is really lamentable at times. You won't see Hispanophobic news in the Catalan channel as you see Catalanophobic news and comments constantly in other channels, with a total lack of shame and impunity.


Al menos te echas unas risas. Qué sería de Telemadrid, por poner un ejemplo,
sin los reportajes catalanófobos? A mi me parecen muy castizos: los televidentes madrileños pagan, y muy cara, su televisión pública y no merecerían programas políticos del estilo de la TV3, que no dejan de ser coñazos intelectualoides por muy independientes que sean, que
a veces lo son, así que retiro lo de "shitty propaganda": forma parte de la retórica de uso habitual en estos temas.:D

(Continuará)

[Comte Arnau]

Al menos te echas unas risas. Qué sería de Telemadrid, por poner un ejemplo,
sin los reportajes catalanófobos? A mi me parecen muy castizos: los televidentes madrileños pagan, y muy cara, su televisión pública y no merecerían programas políticos del estilo de la TV3, que no dejan de ser coñazos intelectualoides por muy independientes que sean, que
a veces lo son, así que retiro lo de "shitty propaganda": forma parte de la retórica de uso habitual en estos temas.:D


Yo soy bastante crítico con el proselitismo de cualquier tipo. Por eso, por muy independentista que sea, no comulgo con el pancatalanismo ni con muchas otras cosas, y puedo criticar con igual ferocidad el españolismo y el catalanismo irracional. De hecho, ese catalanismo irracional ha hecho mucho daño al independentismo serio en mi opinión, pero ése ya es otro tema.

El caso es que, precisamente por eso, intento ser bastante objetivo con lo que me quieren colar, ya venga de una cadena o de otra. TV3 sigue unas pautas que la han diferenciado marcadamente de otras cadenas, básicamente porque desde el principio intentaron seguir el modelo de la BBC, adaptándolo a la realidad catalana, claro está. De hecho, muchas de las series y reportajes, sobre todo en los inicios, procedían de la televisión británica. Cuentan además con un consejo audiovisual regulador, que probablemente tiene que ver con que no se vean programas de prensa rosa ni cosas ofensivas para el menor. Que todo esto conlleva un formato más estricto, más "intelectualoide" en ocasiones, no digo que no. Y también tienen cosas que son criticables, por supuesto. En el caso de los informativos, a menudo se le ha reprochado cierto ombliguismo barcelonés, por ejemplo.

Como decía, no es ni con mucho la mejor cadena del mundo, pero en mi opinión, sí de las mejores del Estado. Fue la primera en tener canal informativo 24 horas, algo nada fácil para una cadena no estatal, y son muchos los programas surgidos en ella que se han copiado después a nivel estatal. El nivel de producción para las series propias de la cadena también es relativamente alto. El gran fallo, desde luego, es que le pusieran de nombre TV3. :p

[antonio]

Yo soy bastante crítico con el proselitismo de cualquier tipo. Por eso, por muy independentista que sea, no comulgo con el pancatalanismo ni con muchas otras cosas, y puedo criticar con igual ferocidad el españolismo y el catalanismo irracional. De hecho, ese catalanismo irracional ha hecho mucho daño al independentismo serio en mi opinión, pero ése ya es otro tema.


Totalmente de acuerdo contigo. En cuanto al pancatalanismo, yo diría su problema es más de forma, que de fondo. Problema probablemente exhacerbado por los catalanistas freaks izquierdosos tan típicos, aún minoritarios en el conjunto de la población, de Valencia, Baleares o la propia Cataluña...y que tan modositos están en comunidades como la de Madrid, con la mejora de imagen cara al exterior o cara al no natural de, Madrid en este caso, que de ello se deriva.


El caso es que, precisamente por eso, intento ser bastante objetivo con lo que me quieren colar, ya venga de una cadena o de otra. TV3 sigue unas pautas que la han diferenciado marcadamente de otras cadenas, básicamente porque desde el principio intentaron seguir el modelo de la BBC, adaptándolo a la realidad catalana, claro está. De hecho, muchas de las series y reportajes, sobre todo en los inicios, procedían de la televisión británica. Cuentan además con un consejo audiovisual regulador, que probablemente tiene que ver con que no se vean programas de prensa rosa ni cosas ofensivas para el menor.

TV3 me recuerda a la Cuatro. Sin poder llamarlas independientes, sí podemos decir que muchas veces lo son, y cuando no lo son, arriman el ascua con mayor elegancia de lo habitual. Quizá por contar con más hábiles redactores: no es lo mismo un periodista conocedor de su oficio, que uno de tantos becarios mediocres que estudiaron la carrera porque era fácil y tenía salidas.

En cuanto a la protección del menor y esas cosas, debo reconocer que no estoy muy de acuerdo con dichas política. La televisión debe ser, ante todo, un medio de diversión para el vulgo. De hecho, yo mismo encuentro más entretenidos en su patetismo ciertos pasajes de GH que, por ejemplo, el programa europeo de la Dos(ahora mismo no recuerdo su nombre).


Que todo esto conlleva un formato más estricto, más "intelectualoide" en ocasiones, no digo que no. Y también tienen cosas que son criticables, por supuesto. En el caso de los informativos, a menudo se le ha reprochado cierto ombliguismo barcelonés, por ejemplo.


Pero siempre desde un mínimo conocimiento/respeto del resto de Cataluña. Sabes cuando supe a ciencia cierta que la Televisión de Aragón iba a ser una puta mierda (hubiera apostado mi vida a que lo iba a ser, por otra parte)? Cuando, en una noticia de relleno sobre vuelo de cometas en Jaca, hablaron de como las protagonistas surcaban "el cielo oscense" (sin comentarios). Lo más gracioso es que tenía al lado al zaragozano marido de mi tía, se lo comenté, y no vió el problema por ninguna parte. Claro que si uno accede al sitio web y comprueba que la mitad de los presentadores no son ni aragoneses, pues ya no resulta tan exigible que diferencien jacetano/jaqués de oscense, como cualquier natural medianamente cultivado haría. En ese sentido no sabéis la suerte que tenéis al contar con un dialecto del Latín elevado a lengua de cultura actuando como filtro idiomático contra gentucilla foránea de ese tipo (eso qué pasa, que como no es profesional no es intrusismo) agentes involuntarios de aculturización de un pueblo. Desgraciadamente bien distinto fue el destino del aragonés: una bisabuela mía que aún "charraba a fabla de la plana de Uesca" pasó a la historia familiar como la abuela "malhablada" (yo de pequeño la suponía diciendo muchos tacos, pobre mujer, con lo dignas que son todas mis ascendientes).



Como decía, no es ni con mucho la mejor cadena del mundo, pero en mi opinión, sí de las mejores del Estado. Fue la primera en tener canal informativo 24 horas, algo nada fácil para una cadena no estatal, y son muchos los programas surgidos en ella que se han copiado después a nivel estatal. El nivel de producción para las series propias de la cadena también es relativamente alto.


Aunque ni mucho menos soy un telespectador habitual de la TV3 (principalmente porque mi nivel de compresión del catalán hablado, siendo alto, no es ni mucho menos absoluto, lo que me hace sentir incómodo ante la posibilidad de que se me escape alguna cosa) bien sé que no te falta razón. A mi no me suelen hacer puta gracia los programas de humor (excepto el añorado Noche Hache) pero lo de Polonia es por momentos hilarante, aunque, como toda fórmula, acabará desgastándose antes o después. En cuanto a series, la verdad es que no me interesan, ni siquiera las emitidas en español (hago una excepción con Hay alguien ahí), aunque hace unos meses me puse a ver por casualidad la Veu del Panamo, y la encontré muy bien producida y bastante entretenida. En otro momento fruto de la casualidad llamada zapping me encontré con el programa de la Mónica Terribas y quedé bastante impresionado con su inteligencia (creo que es la actual directora de TV3, no me extraña): ese tipo de periodista nunca lo verás en otra TV pública, pues nunca sabes por donde te van a salir, la independencia es además de incómoda, imprevisible y eso nunca conviene cuando el objetivo es añadir borregos a tu causa.



El gran fallo, desde luego, es que le pusieran de nombre TV3.

Subordinándose a TVE, efectivamente. :D

Pd. La verdad es que Cataluña daría para un subforo propio, sin que esté con ésto reconociendo nada a nadie. :D

Por cierto, qué opinión te merece Salvador Sostres? A mi siempre me ha parecido un tío muy lúcido, igual "equivocao", sí, pero muy lúcido, valga la paradoja.

[Amapola]

I don't think you're really misusing it. A patriot isn't necessarily a nationalist.

The concept of nation, as I view it, is characterized by the feeling of homeland (patria).


Isn't patriotism a traditionalist way? What is a nation for you?
No, not especially... a traditionalist hopes to restore the old institutions- in a literal way (Utopian idea). The concep of "nation" is alien to most of them.

[Fred]

To change it, how about all of the Iberian kingdoms minus Navarre ought to unite. Perhaps giving recognition to Granada is unhelpful and backwards considering 1492, but Basque acknowledgment cannot be in poor taste. The people of Pamplona are European after all. Perhaps their Calvinist tradition can be revived, undoing the Bourbon union with France. Then again, the Song of Roland argues against tolerating Basque terrorists. Why shouldn't Navarre be partitioned between the governments of Paris and Madrid? Oh well...:thumb001: