Actual Importance of Haplogroups

[Longbowman]

Some people seem to have some misinformed views on haplogroups - namely, a seeming belief that they are hugely important on an individual's genetic makeup, perhaps even phenotype and race. This is just a brief thread to explain the actual value of haplogroups:

1) mtDNA constitutes the smallest chromosome in humans

mtDNA consists of only 16,600 base pairs, which might sound a lot but humans have around 3.2 billion, which means it's only about 0.0005% of your genome. In terms of direct impact on the physical form, mtDNA only constitutes 37 genes, of which according to wikipedia, 13 are for proteins (polypeptides), 22 are for transfer RNA (tRNA) and two are for the small and large subunits of ribosomal RNA (rRNA). It has very little effect on the individual. Remember, your eye colour alone is determined by c. ~15 genes, so 37 is a very small amount.

2) YDNA is larger than mtDNA, at about 50 million base pairs, but that's still only around 1% of the male genome (females do not have a Y-chromosome, which should tell you how important it is vis-a-vis phenotype and race). Unsurprisingly, it's mainly involved in proteins that exist in males but not females. It is a fascinating chromosome, especially with regards to the differences between humans and other mammals.

3) So why are they so often cited in human genetics?

Because they're the only genes automatically handed down father-to-son, and mother-to-child, excluding mutations, which makes them useful for identifying racial groupings. So if 80% of Britons are R1b, then R1b becomes associated with Britons. But, even assuming YDNA chomosome X is exclusively Finnish in origin, if someone has YDNA clade X, all it means is 1 great great great great great etc. grandparent was Finnish - and thus YDNA isn't hugely relevant in determine the race of an individual. Similarly, not being clade X doesn't mean you aren't Finnish, it just means your great great etc. grandparent wasn't Finnish. The remaining 99%+ of your makeup could easily be Finnish.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA

1000th post!

[Stanley]

Yep. Haplogroups are useful for population history and can be interesting trivia, but they carry way too much clout on these boards. A lot of people make them out to be some huge determiner of their genetic makeup. Just take a look at the 23andMe community threads.

I think here at TA we had a thread a while ago polling people with I1 Y-DNA on their heights. Yeah...

[Baluarte]

Marginal use to determine prehistoric origin of certain populations, in order to improve our knowledge of history of ancient settling and migrations.

Out of niche science importance? Absolutely none

[Oneeye]

Yep. Haplogroups are useful for population history and can be interesting trivia, but they carry way too much clout on these boards. A lot of people make them out to be some huge determiner of their genetic makeup. Just take a look at the 23andMe community threads.

I think here at TA we had a thread a while ago polling people with I1 Y-DNA on their heights. Yeah...


+1

Haplogroups are much more useful in a collective point of view, rather than individual.

[Smeagol]

Haplogroups are absolutely meaningless. They don't say anything about a person.

[Damião de Góis]

Haplogroups are absolutely meaningless. They don't say anything about a person.

But there's a good chance you will guess where this person is from just by looking at the person's haplogroups.

[Atlantic Islander]

H1 is as boring as chalk.

[Longbowman]

But there's a good chance you will guess where this person is from just by looking at the person's haplogroups.

Unlikely. There's a good chance you can tell where that person's male line ancestry isn't from but most haplogroups are found over a very wide area.

[Gaita]

I mean, the haplogroups are helpful to a certain extent, they simply tell us the origins of our first male and female ancestor. Ofc they also play part in our total autosomal DNA as well.

[Styrian Mujo]

I calculated how much hg R,I and N each european country has and I got some pretty interesting results.

[Longbowman]

I calculated how much hg R,I and N each european country has and I got some pretty interesting results.

I'm sure you did, but the fact remains that to the individual, YDNA and mtDNA constitute the tiniest (literally, in regards to chromosome size) of one's autosomal DNA and are not useful for determining the ancestry of an individual, but rather, only that of large populations: hence your study.

[Damião de Góis]

Unlikely. There's a good chance you can tell where that person's male line ancestry isn't from but most haplogroups are found over a very wide area.

Not really, i could guess easily that someone with R1b-L21 was from Britain, and i would be right 90% of the times... and if i guessed that someone with my haplogroup was from Portugal, i would have a good chance of guessing too.

[Stanley]

H1 is as boring as chalk.
H1a1, on the other hand—infinitely fascinating.

[Longbowman]

Not really, i could guess easily that someone with R1b-L21 was from Britain, and i would be right 90% of the times... and if i guessed that someone with my haplogroup was from Portugal, i would have a good chance of guessing too.

There are some smaller or more isolated haplogroups for which this might be true, but R1b-L21 isn't one of them. Although it's dominant in most of Britain and Ireland, it's also dominant in Brittany and extremely common in other parts of France, northern Spain and Iceland. Plus, given the enormous British diaspora, it will now be found across the globe, in African American population, creolles, and others - hence my point about how irrelevant it is to ancestry.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=r1b-L21&tbm=isch&source=iu&imgil=0C1nodcl6UKI6M%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252F encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9 GcRYntcOCLRwYzhV10hYhMXkikg594kiktHzBDsP6fFobTrYtQ GC8w%253B800%253B553%253B559vFixLlzky-M%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.norwaydna.no%25 252Fy-dna%25252Fy-dna-haplogrupper%25252Fr1b-y-haplogruppe%25252F&sa=X&ei=FwK2UqbSDaK07QaEz4CoAw&ved=0CFsQ9QEwAw

[Styrian Mujo]

I'm sure you did, but the fact remains that to the individual, YDNA and mtDNA constitute the tiniest (literally, in regards to chromosome size) of one's autosomal DNA and are not useful for determining the ancestry of an individual, but rather, only that of large populations: hence your study.
What do you mean by "I'm sure you did".

[Damião de Góis]

There are some smaller or more isolated haplogroups for which this might be true, but R1b-L21 isn't one of them.

Of course it is... it's one of the better examples of localized haplogroups that you will find in Europe. In a similar way, you could guess that someone with I1 would likely be scandinavian or someone with R1a would likely be Eastern European.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

3) So why are they so often cited in human genetics?

Because they're the only genes automatically handed down father-to-son, and mother-to-child, excluding mutations, which makes them useful for identifying racial groupings. So if 80% of Britons are R1b, then R1b becomes associated with Britons. But, even assuming YDNA chomosome X is exclusively Finnish in origin, if someone has YDNA clade X, all it means is 1 great great great great great etc. grandparent was Finnish - and thus YDNA isn't hugely relevant in determine the race of an individual. Similarly, not being clade X doesn't mean you aren't Finnish, it just means your great great etc. grandparent wasn't Finnish. The remaining 99%+ of your makeup could easily be Finnish.


It doesn't mean one great-great-etc. parent was Finnish. If a particular subclade, however, dominates in an ethnicity, like in Berbers, then yes but you're not speaking of that but if you were it wouldn't make someone 1% Berber and 99% something else. If you have a paternal ancestor who is 100% Martian a thousand years ago and no other Martians are in your family tree you wouldn't be 1% Martian. You'd be 0.000000000..... and so on ... 001% Martian regardless of the haplogroup/subclade.

[Longbowman]

What do you mean by "I'm sure you did".

That I'm sure you did, but it's not relevant to the point, which was about genetic impact. I did mention that haplogroups are used to observe large migration and population trends. It wasn't intended sarcastically.


Of course it is... it's one of the better examples of localized haplogroups that you will find in Europe. In a similar way, you could guess that someone with I1 would likely be scandinavian or someone with R1a would likely be Eastern European.

No, it's a terrible example. It exists throughout western Europe and although I'll wager a majority of the carriers have British ancestry, a majority of the carriers are no longer British. The haplogroup has been diffused throughout the entire world, particularly during the colonial period, even if we look past the original other Atlantic populations, and plenty of African-Americans, Native Americans, Aboriginals and general mixed or part Whites will now be carriers. If I gave you 10 people with no other information but their YDNA and it was R1bL21 and you said they were all British or of primarily British ancestry, you'd probably be right four times, perhaps five.

[Longbowman]

It doesn't mean one great-great-etc. parent was Finnish. If a particular subclade, however, dominates in an ethnicity, like in Berbers, then yes but you're not speaking of that but if you were it wouldn't make someone 1% Berber and 99% something else. If you have a paternal ancestor who is 100% Martian a thousand years ago and no other Martians are in your family tree you wouldn't be 1% Martian. You'd be 0.000000000..... and so on ... 001% Martian regardless of the haplogroup/subclade.

In the example given where X was exclusive to Finns, yes it does. As YDNA accounts for c. ~1% of your autosomal DNA, if your YDNA is Finnish, you're 1% Finn. With regards to MtDNA you're right, though.

[Damião de Góis]

No, it's a terrible example. It exists throughout western Europe and although I'll wager a majority of the carriers have British ancestry, a majority of the carriers are no longer British. The haplogroup has been diffused throughout the entire world, particularly during the colonial period, even if we look past the original other Atlantic populations, and plenty of African-Americans, Native Americans, Aboriginals and general mixed or part Whites will now be carriers. If I gave you 10 people with no other information but their YDNA and it was R1bL21 and you said they were all British or of primarily British ancestry, you'd probably be right four times, perhaps five.


I'm just gonna assume that YDNA distributions isn't your strong point.. so how does R1b-L21 compare with other types of R1b in terms of "existing throughout Western Europe"? (M529 is another way of saying L21)

http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/3628/m529all.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THYYn0iOp2I/AAAAAAAACiw/GTn5liL2F68/s400/u106.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THY988BUM3I/AAAAAAAACi4/PEATYyVuzig/s400/u152.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THq_t3eR6JI/AAAAAAAACjg/ECinYNcEUB8/s1600/s116.jpg

[Longbowman]

I'm just gonna assume that YDNA distributions isn't your strong point.. so how does R1b-L21 compare with other types of R1b in terms of "existing throughout Western Europe"? (M529 is another way of saying L21)

Obviously it peaks in Northern Ireland but it exists in France, northern Iberia, western Scandinavia and Iceland but my point was that nowadays it exists amongst mixed whites, African Americans, Aborigines, and any group that has mixed with Atlantic peoples. Please read my points in full. It means nothing on an individual level - only on a group level.

Anyway, here's a map to counter your map on R1b L21 http://adamsfamilydna.com/haplogroup-r1b-r1b1a2a1a1b4f-subclade-l21/

[Damião de Góis]

Obviously it peaks in Northern Ireland but it exists in France, northern Iberia, western Scandinavia and Iceland but my point was that nowadays it exists amongst mixed whites, African Americans, Aborigines, and any group that has mixed with Atlantic peoples. Please read my points in full. It means nothing on an individual level - only on a group level.

This guessing only works for europeans, not new worlders.


Anyway, here's a map to counter your map on R1b L21 http://adamsfamilydna.com/haplogroup-r1b-r1b1a2a1a1b4f-subclade-l21/

They're similar but mine is from a study, yours is from Eupedia... a forum like this one.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

In the example given where X was exclusive to Finns, yes it does. As YDNA accounts for c. ~1% of your autosomal DNA, if your YDNA is Finnish, you're 1% Finn. With regards to MtDNA you're right, though.

You're all mixed up.

With regard to the Y-chromosome, the most common haplogroups of the Finns are N1c (58%), I (29%), R1a (7.5%) and R1b (3.5%).[39] Haplogroup N1c, which is found only in a few countries in Europe (Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Finland and Russia), is a subgroup of the haplogroup N (Y-DNA) distributed across northern Eurasia and estimated in a recent study to be 10,000–20,000 years old and suggested to have entered Europe about 12,000–14,000 years ago from Asia.[40]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns#cite_note-40

What exactly is exclusive to Finns?

N1c existed in those other areas before there was such a thing as Finns, Latvians, etc.

[Longbowman]

This guessing only works for europeans, not new worlders.



They're similar but mine is from a study, yours is from Eupedia... a forum like this one.

I'm aware but I searched for a map and that one was the only one to come up on R1b L21. I couldn't even find yours. The point is it exists outside the UK.

And it only works for Europeans whose ancestry hasn't migrated at all for 500 years, or ever. Sure, a man with R1b is more likely to be a Brit than someone with Q, but the UK also has native R1a, E1b1b and even J clades.

[Longbowman]

You're all mixed up.


What exactly is exclusive to Finns?

N1c existed in those other nations before there was such a thing as Finns, Latvians, etc.

Argh, nothing's exclusive to Finns, it was an analogy. A hypothetical to explain the genetic payload of YDNA.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Argh, nothing's exclusive to Finns, it was an analogy. A hypothetical to explain the genetic payload of YDNA.

Instead of making an analogy why not actually use existing examples? Like the Berbers? Or subclade of Rb1 associated with French or the Irish? Instead you speak of haplogroups by themselves that can be found in many different places.

Your 1% reasoning is just absurd. Why not 0.1% or O.001%. You just randomly chose 1%.

[Longbowman]

Instead of making an analogy why not actually use existing examples? Like the Berbers? Or subclade of Rb1 associated with French or the Irish? Instead you speak of haplogroups by themselves that can be found in many different places.

Your 1% reasoning is just absurd. Why not 0.1% or O.001%. You just randomly chose 1%.

Because there's no haplogroup that's 100% unique, in the here and now, to just one group AND is the ONLY haplogroup found in that group.

No, it's 1%. 58 million base pairs. Look it up.

[Nehellenia]

My indigenous DNA whatev result was saying i was Finnish... news to me, when was i Finnish?
Only if Viking colonialism had anything to do with it. Which makes your point completely make sense.

[Void]

No, it's 1%. 58 million base pairs. Look it up.
It's 59 million. The human genome has 3 billion base pairs which computes to 1.97%.

I would say this 2% is hugely important, as I would be female without it. Another thing to consider is that the Y chromosome mutates 5 times faster than the other Chromosomes. So if we take a pure African and a pure Aboriginal 10% of their genetic difference will be on the Y chromosome. If we have an aboriginal male impregnate an african female, and an african male an aboriginal female, the level of genetic difference on the Y chromosome will increase because the DNA does not recombine.

Another issue is that historically for every 4 females that reproduced, only 1 male reproduced. This implies that the Y chromosome is under stronger evolutionary selection than the other chromosomes. If two races evolve under divergent evolutionary pressure this means that the Y chromosome will have more beneficial mutations than the other chromosomes. It's unclear to me how to calculate this, but from a functional perspective the genetic difference is likely to be between 15 and 30%?

One could go as far as to say that the Y haplogroup is one's race, that the other chromosomes are merely its support system, and that speciation occurs along paternal lines.

[Longbowman]

It's 59 million. The human genome has 3 billion base pairs which computes to 1.97%.

I would say this 2% is hugely important, as I would be female without it. Another thing to consider is that the Y chromosome mutates 5 times faster than the other Chromosomes. So if we take a pure African and a pure Aboriginal 10% of their genetic difference will be on the Y chromosome. If we have an aboriginal male impregnate an african female, and an african male an aboriginal female, the level of genetic difference on the Y chromosome will increase because the DNA does not recombine.

Another issue is that historically for every 4 females that reproduced, only 1 male reproduced. This implies that the Y chromosome is under stronger evolutionary selection than the other chromosomes. If two races evolve under divergent evolutionary pressure this means that the Y chromosome will have more beneficial mutations than the other chromosomes. It's unclear to me how to calculate this, but from a functional perspective the genetic difference is likely to be between 15 and 30%?

One could go as far as to say that the Y haplogroup is one's race, that the other chromosomes are merely its support system, and that speciation occurs along paternal lines.

Importance with regards to race. Of course you need it for biological reasons. I'm sorry, I thought that was obvious by my post.

As for the rest of your post, it's not and more than 1-2% of your autosomal makeup, regardless of how few men (and indeed, fewer men have direct line descendants) have direct lines descendants. Here's a thought. Afrikaaners are 2% black on average. It stands to reason some of them will have black YDNA or mtDNA markers. Are these individuals black, when their cousins are white, and vice versa? The answer, of course, is no. Are African Americans actually white, and anglo-saxon, seeing as a very large percentage have Western European YDNA? Of course not.

Your facts are interesting, but ultimately do not change the autosomal relative irrelevance of YDNA.

[Vasconcelos]

I genuinely do not care.

[Äijä]

I genuinely do not care.

I personally do care and would like to get an unbroken male line to the Finnish ethnogenesis, just for the hell of it.

[Vasconcelos]

I personally do care and would like to get an unbroken male line to the Finnish ethnogenesis, just for the hell of it.

It won't change who you are, though.

[Damião de Góis]

I personally do care and would like to get an unbroken male line to the Finnish ethnogenesis, just for the hell of it.

That will be very difficult to be sure, you would have to test all your ancestors. The best you can get is to get the most common Y-DNA in Finland, but that would just be your first male ancestor.

[Äijä]

That will be very difficult to be sure, you would have to test all your ancestors. The best you can get is to get the most common Y-DNA in Finland, but that would just be your first male ancestor.

Not sure what you are trying to say.

[Äijä]

It won't change who you are, though.

Naturally not, but most Finns can trace their family to Iron Age Finland, we are special as a population.

[Damião de Góis]

Not sure what you are trying to say.

I'm saying it's difficult to prove your line is 100% finnish. What you could get as an aproximation was if your haplogroup was the most common one in Finland, and if you clustered in other finns. But that alone wouldn't mean you couldn't have a swedish or estonian ancestor down the line.

[Äijä]

I'm saying it's difficult to prove your line is 100% finnish. What you could get as an aproximation was if your haplogroup was the most common one in Finland, and if you clustered in other finns. But that alone wouldn't mean you couldn't have a swedish or estonian ancestor down the line.

Yes, you have a point but we can actually get a better aproximation than most people.
Also there is the remote possibility of ancient DNA found from somewhere.

[Void]

Here's a thought. Afrikaaners are 2% black on average. It stands to reason some of them will have black YDNA or mtDNA markers. Are these individuals black, when their cousins are white, and vice versa? The answer, of course, is no. Are African Americans actually white, and anglo-saxon, seeing as a very large percentage have Western European YDNA? Of course not.
Except that Y DNA has more genetic change than non-Y DNA. Take the chimpanzee Y chromosome for example, it differs a staggering 30% with the human Y chromosome and that's likely to be a conservative estimate. One would expect that 15-30% of racial differences can be explained by Y haplogroup, and in the case of prolonged racial admixture this could be as high as 100%.

This being the case we'd expect 20th century racial maps to match early 21th century haplogroup maps. Lets have a look.

52328

52329

We'll have to assume some margin of error due to poor sampling size, even then the maps are mostly identical.

R1b matches the Western race (light blue) R1a matches the East Baltic race. N1 matches the Mongolian race. J2 and J1 are well matched.

I1 matches the Nordic race. I2b matches the Phalian sub-race. I2a matches the Dinaric race.

The only anomaly is E1 which appears to be grouped together with R1b. There is mention of a "hither asiatic" race however which appears to match E1.

What's really interesting is the match in Western Norway.

The only logical explanation is that 1) The similarities are pure coincedence 2) That haplogroups correlate with racial groups 3) That the Y chromosome influences skull shape.

The truth is likely a combination of 2 and 3.

[Longbowman]

Except that Y DNA has more genetic change than non-Y DNA. Take the chimpanzee Y chromosome for example, it differs a staggering 30% with the human Y chromosome and that's likely to be a conservative estimate. One would expect that 15-30% of racial differences can be explained by Y haplogroup, and in the case of prolonged racial admixture this could be as high as 100%.

This being the case we'd expect 20th century racial maps to match early 21th century haplogroup maps. Lets have a look.

52328

52329

We'll have to assume some margin of error due to poor sampling size, even then the maps are mostly identical.

R1b matches the Western race (light blue) R1a matches the East Baltic race. N1 matches the Mongolian race. J2 and J1 are well matched.

I1 matches the Nordic race. I2b matches the Phalian sub-race. I2a matches the Dinaric race.

The only anomaly is E1 which appears to be grouped together with R1b. There is mention of a "hither asiatic" race however which appears to match E1.

What's really interesting is the match in Western Norway.

The only logical explanation is that 1) The similarities are pure coincedence 2) That haplogroups correlate with racial groups 3) That the Y chromosome influences skull shape.

The truth is likely a combination of 2 and 3.

Fascinating but none of it actually adds to the amount ydna adds to your adna.

[Äijä]

Except that Y DNA has more genetic change than non-Y DNA. Take the chimpanzee Y chromosome for example, it differs a staggering 30% with the human Y chromosome and that's likely to be a conservative estimate. One would expect that 15-30% of racial differences can be explained by Y haplogroup, and in the case of prolonged racial admixture this could be as high as 100%.

This being the case we'd expect 20th century racial maps to match early 21th century haplogroup maps. Lets have a look.

52328

52329

We'll have to assume some margin of error due to poor sampling size, even then the maps are mostly identical.

R1b matches the Western race (light blue) R1a matches the East Baltic race. N1 matches the Mongolian race. J2 and J1 are well matched.

I1 matches the Nordic race. I2b matches the Phalian sub-race. I2a matches the Dinaric race.

The only anomaly is E1 which appears to be grouped together with R1b. There is mention of a "hither asiatic" race however which appears to match E1.

What's really interesting is the match in Western Norway.

The only logical explanation is that 1) The similarities are pure coincedence 2) That haplogroups correlate with racial groups 3) That the Y chromosome influences skull shape.

The truth is likely a combination of 2 and 3.

How does N1c match with Mongolian race?
99% of Finns, Estonians and Balts are marked as Nordic or East Baltid in the race map.

[Void]

How does N1c match with Mongolian race?
99% of Finns, Estonians and Balts are marked as Nordic or East Baltid in the race map.
West Finland is marked as Nordic, which matches the 1925 map. North Finland is marked as "Mongolian" which matches. The 2010 map is based on a sample size of 100 people and should be considered a very rough estimate. I have no idea what the sample sizes for the 1922 map was.

Estonia has 20% I 30% N and 30% R1a, either poor sampling is at fault here, or Gunther's measurements are inaccurate, or whoever measured skulls for him in Estonia was biased toward "Nordic" results. Alternatively the Russians got rid of a lot of Nordics after WW2. The Nazis had a tendency to recruit Nordics for their military as well, and Russia killed most POWs as far as I know.

We're looking at two imperfect maps here however, but there's an obvious correlation.

[Äijä]

West Finland is marked as Nordic, which matches the 1925 map. North Finland is marked as "Mongolian" which matches. The 2010 map is based on a sample size of 100 people and should be considered a very rough estimate. I have no idea what the sample sizes for the 1922 map was.

Estonia has 20% I 30% N and 30% R1a, either poor sampling is at fault here, or Gunther's measurements are inaccurate, or whoever measured skulls for him in Estonia was biased toward "Nordic" results. Alternatively the Russians got rid of a lot of Nordics after WW2. The Nazis had a tendency to recruit Nordics for their military as well, and Russia killed most POWs as far as I know.

We're looking at two imperfect maps here however, but there's an obvious correlation.

No there is not.

[Void]

No there is not.
There obviously is as the areas with the highest concentration of N1 overlap. For additional reference I checked Rassenkundes Europas by Gunther where he states the following about Inner Asiatics (named Mongolian in the map).

"There is sometimes in Norway, as also in Sweden, a dash of Inner Asiatic blood in the non-Lappish population." (Not shown in the map, but acknowledged here.)

"If we except the districts settled by Lapps and Finns, to whom, as in Norway, a certain Inner Asiatic and East Baltic strain in the population is due, Sweden is perhaps still more Nordic than Norway, and, therefore, the relatively purest Nordic land of all." (Once again correct, Lapps are primarily N1, I1, and R1a, and Sweden has the highest percentage of I1.)

"Owing to the likeness between East Baltic and Inner Asiatic bodily characters it will often be hard to fix a sharp boundary between these two races." (This might explain some of the confusion.)

"Inner Asiatic blood shows itself as a more or less strong admixture all over the east of Europe." (General acknowledgement that it's there though not shown on the map.)

Mentions of Hither Asiatics (most likely E1) are interesting as well.

"The two races which are, so to say, the foundation of the Jewish nation are, as was said above, the Hither Asiatic and the Oriental." (Which would be E1 and J1)

"Greece is predominantly Mediterranean (Mediterranean-Hither Asiatic-Dinaric)" (R1b E1 I2 which is close enough I guess?)

"The Spaniards have always been astonished at the likeness of their Berber foes in Morocco with themselves. In all these regions of north-west Africa, however, there are found also Oriental, Negro, and (especially, it would seem, in Algeria and Morocco) Hither Asiatic strains."

[Longbowman]

There obviously is as the areas with the highest concentration of N1 overlap. For additional reference I checked Rassenkundes Europas by Gunther where he states the following about Inner Asiatics (named Mongolian in the map).

"There is sometimes in Norway, as also in Sweden, a dash of Inner Asiatic blood in the non-Lappish population." (Not shown in the map, but acknowledged here.)

"If we except the districts settled by Lapps and Finns, to whom, as in Norway, a certain Inner Asiatic and East Baltic strain in the population is due, Sweden is perhaps still more Nordic than Norway, and, therefore, the relatively purest Nordic land of all." (Once again correct, Lapps are primarily N1, I1, and R1a, and Sweden has the highest percentage of I1.)

"Owing to the likeness between East Baltic and Inner Asiatic bodily characters it will often be hard to fix a sharp boundary between these two races." (This might explain some of the confusion.)

"Inner Asiatic blood shows itself as a more or less strong admixture all over the east of Europe." (General acknowledgement that it's there though not shown on the map.)

Mentions of Hither Asiatics (most likely E1) are interesting as well.

"The two races which are, so to say, the foundation of the Jewish nation are, as was said above, the Hither Asiatic and the Oriental." (Which would be J1 and E1)

"Greece is predominantly Mediterranean (Mediterranean-Hither Asiatic-Dinaric)" (R1b E1 I2 which is close enough I guess?)

"The Spaniards have always been astonished at the likeness of their Berber foes in Morocco with themselves. In all these regions of north-west Africa, however, there are found also Oriental, Negro, and (especially, it would seem, in Algeria and Morocco) Hither Asiatic strains."

There is no 'Jewish nation.' There are a number of ethnicities, some of which are related to each other and some of which are not, that are Jewish. If you're referring to Ashkenazis then J1, J2 and E3b would be the majority components but that's not to say they were the founding components.

But you're missing the point. Yes, E3b is more common in SJs than Finns, and Germans than Brits. But it still doesn't affect your race on a noticeable level. You are basically saying 'on average N1c people are more Finnic/Asiatic than non-N1c peoples' which is true, but you seem to be drawing the conclusion 'thus, N1c makes you Finnic/Asiatic.'

This is not so. Your haplogroups are but a fraction of your aDNA. You do not seem to comprehend that surely, a higher proportion of N1c people will be Finns than R1b people, but N1c doesn't make the Finn, and conversely lack of N1c doesn't break the Finn.

No genes found on your Y-chromosome have been shown to affect racial appearance (and why would they, girls don't have them).

[Void]

No genes found on your Y-chromosome have been shown to affect racial appearance (and why would they, girls don't have them).
It hasn't been researched so obviously no correlations have been found.

[Äijä]

It hasn't been researched so obviously no correlations have been found.

How much do you think they correlate?
60% Finnish males carry N1c subclades L1022, L550, L1025 and Z1936, what is the percentage of mongoloid features that causes?

[Longbowman]

It hasn't been researched so obviously no correlations have been found.

It hasn't been directly researched but we know what most of the genes do.

[Pjeter Pan]

I think 23andme made an error with my ydna xD :p

[Void]

How much do you think they correlate?
60% Finnish males carry N1c subclades L1022, L550, L1025 and Z1936, what is the percentage of mongoloid features that causes?
The 60% is based on the DNA of 95 Finns, which is an inadequate sample size.

N1c is probably the cause of the alcohol problems in Finland, which would be a typical Siberian trait. 95% of alcoholics are males which makes it a likely Y-linked trait.

Traits selected for in the autosomal DNA would also be selected for on the Y chromosome, so N1c skulls should be broader and rounder, which is a cold adaption trait. The degree of expression would be 10% at the minimum but might be as high as 40%.

Absent brow ridges are supposedly a mongoloid trait (no clear sources on this) and it's unclear how haplogroup D, C, NO, and QR express these.

[Longbowman]

The 60% is based on the DNA of 95 Finns, which is an inadequate sample size.

N1c is probably the cause of the alcohol problems in Finland, which would be a typical Siberian trait. 95% of alcoholics are males which makes it a likely Y-linked trait.

Traits selected for in the autosomal DNA would also be selected for on the Y chromosome, so N1c skulls should be broader and rounder, which is a cold adaption trait. The degree of expression would be 10% at the minimum but might be as high as 40%.

Absent brow ridges are supposedly a mongoloid trait (no clear sources on this) and it's unclear how haplogroup D, C, NO, and QR express these.

Or more likely an environmental one.

Your approach is pseudoscientific and is based on presumptions and not facts. Do I 'look E3b?'

[Void]

Or more likely an environmental one.

Your approach is pseudoscientific and is based on presumptions and not facts.
Looks like research is backing up my presumptions. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC22445/



Our results indicate that the risk of alcoholism in Finnish males is influenced by differences in Y chromosomes. Risk ratios suggest that males within clades 1-49, 1-21, and 1-57 were 1.5 times more likely to be alcoholic than males with other Y haplotypes, and the risk for alcohol dependence with ASPD was increased 2-fold within clade 1-57. However, the majority of the risk of alcoholism in these Finnish males is not Y chromosome-associated, and in fact, alcohol dependence is observed with Y haplotypes distributed throughout the cladogram. Twin studies suggest that alcoholism has a heritability of ≈50% (50, 51). Using this figure and data from our population sample, we estimate that Y chromosome variability may account for ≈7% of the total variance and 15% of the genetic variance of alcoholism in these Finnish males.

Haven't been able to figure out what haplogroups they are referencing.


Do I 'look E3b?'
Classifying people is a bit of a pseudo-science. I would at the very least need a side profile.

[Guapo]

I think here at TA we had a thread a while ago polling people with I1 Y-DNA on their heights. Yeah...
Yeah what? Majority of South slavs are I something or other and are taller than majority of Europeans. Neolithics(J,E etc) are the ones that brought short stature and gracile builds to Europe.

[Highlands]

Yeah what? Majority of South slavs are I something or other and are taller than majority of Europeans. Neolithics(J,E etc) are the ones that brought short stature and gracile builds to Europe.

Making things up again ...

[Guapo]

Making things up again ...

High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia.

Regueiro M1, Rivera L, Damnjanovic T, Lukovic L, Milasin J, Herrera RJ.
Author information
Abstract


Whether present-day European genetic variation and its distribution patterns can be attributed primarily to the initial peopling of Europe by anatomically modern humans during the Paleolithic, or to latter Near Eastern Neolithic input is still the subject of debate. Southeastern Europe has been a crossroads for several cultures since Paleolithic times and the Balkans, specifically, would have been part of the route used by Neolithic farmers to enter Europe. Given its geographic location in the heart of the Balkan Peninsula at the intersection of Central and Southeastern Europe, Serbia represents a key geographical location that may provide insight to elucidate the interactions between indigenous Paleolithic people and agricultural colonists from the Fertile Crescent. In this study, we examine, for the first time, the Y-chromosome constitution of the general Serbian population. A total of 103 individuals were sampled and their DNA analyzed for 104 Y-chromosome bi-allelic markers and 17 associated STR loci. Our results indicate that approximately 58% of Serbian Y-chromosomes (I1-M253, I2a-P37.2 and R1a1a-M198) belong to lineages believed to be pre-Neolithic. On the other hand, the signature of putative Near Eastern Neolithic lineages, including E1b1b1a1-M78, G2a-P15, J1-M267, J2-M172 and R1b1a2-M269 accounts for 39% of the Y-chromosome. Haplogroup frequency distributions in Western and Eastern Europe reveal a spotted landscape of paleolithic Y chromosomes, undermining continental-wide generalizations. Furthermore, an examination of the distribution of Y-chromosome filiations in Europe indicates extreme levels of Paleolithic lineages in a region encompassing Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Croatia, possibly the result of Neolithic migrations encroaching on Paleolithic populations against the Adriatic Sea.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22310393



According to one study on remains of early Europeans, prior to 16,000 BC, European males stood 179 cm tall, or 5’10.5″, and females stood 158 cm, or 5’2″. Between 8,000 to 6,600 BC, average heights had dropped to 166 cm for males. Heights fell even further in Neolithic populations, dropping down to 164 cm for males and 150 cm for females, only reaching and surpassing 170 cm at the end of the 19th century.


Another source found that Paleolithic humans living between 30,000 and 9,000 BC ran almost 5’10”, which is close to the average modern American male’s height. After agriculture was fully adopted, male height dropped to 161 cm, or 5’5.4″. Females went from 166.5 cm to 154.3 cm under the same parameters.




http://www.marksdailyapple.com/the-connection-between-height-and-health/#ixzz3JTyeUBkq

[Highlands]

It comes about by accumulation. Maternal lines should also be considered, they are just as important and the vast majority are Neolithic.

[Longbowman]

Looks like research is backing up my presumptions. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC22445/

Haven't been able to figure out what haplogroups they are referencing.

Classifying people is a bit of a pseudo-science. I would at the very least need a side profile.

I have two classification threads, both of which came up as overwhelmingly Western European.

Your presumption is this:

1) Women don't have YDNA
2) Ergo YDNA makes all the difference between the sexes
3) Ergo YDNA determines all masculine traits

Wrong. Most of these traits exist in women but are dormant or diminished. All YDNA does is 'activate' the genes in question. YDNA does not include the genes for 'brow ridges' and other things.

It also doesn't contain the genes for reaction to alcohol as women have those too.

Seriously. Stop. It's pseudoscience.

[Äijä]

The 60% is based on the DNA of 95 Finns, which is an inadequate sample size.

N1c is probably the cause of the alcohol problems in Finland, which would be a typical Siberian trait. 95% of alcoholics are males which makes it a likely Y-linked trait.

Traits selected for in the autosomal DNA would also be selected for on the Y chromosome, so N1c skulls should be broader and rounder, which is a cold adaption trait. The degree of expression would be 10% at the minimum but might be as high as 40%.

Absent brow ridges are supposedly a mongoloid trait (no clear sources on this) and it's unclear how haplogroup D, C, NO, and QR express these.

The 60% is close to the truth looking at all the studies and projects.

The rest is drivel, pseudoscience and speculation, is your previous name Butlerking?

[Void]

Seriously. Stop. It's pseudoscience.
I prove you wrong and your response is rather dramatic. Has anyone with half a brain been ran off of this board?

[Longbowman]

I prove you wrong and your response is rather dramatic. Has anyone with half a brain been ran off of this board?

You haven't come close to proving me wrong. YDNA doesn't do what you think it does. You have hijacked a thread that was supposed to remind people that ydna and mtdna are the smallest and least relevant parts of your adna and not only do you strive to deny this, you fill the thread with a) irrelevant and b) incorrect OT. You're wrong, as I have explained to you.

Your paper is interesting. Please provide one that backs up anything else you've said and I won't point out the obvious flaw in it.

[Jana]

I think they are much less important that people make them to be. It shows nothing about our ancestry other than ancient migration path of oldest ancestor which is fun but still, you have tousands of other ancestors in non-direct male/female line that probably belonged to different haplogroups.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Probably to understand population migrations and melting pots. And how genetics of population changes after time and /mixing when comparing to more ancient dna

but yea its not race , although people like to associate identity with lineage.

[Vasconcelos]

but yea its not race , although people like to associate identity with lineage.

I feel it's rather silly to feel associated with a certain group just because of a Y cromossome that dates back thousands of years ago.

[Longbowman]

I feel it's rather silly to feel associated with a certain group just because of a Y cromossome that dates back thousands of years ago.

Callate. Gib Palestine.

[Vasconcelos]

Callate. Gib Palestine.

I wouldn't want to be relocated to a frozen wasteland.

[Justalittlevisit]

It is interesting how haplogroup I1 (Y-DNA) matches with the settlements of the Germanic people.

Lundman was interested in blood types. Did he get to know haplogroup research during his lifetime?

[Norka]

Absolutely irrelevant gives a man a dick. In my case a massive E-V13 balkanigger dick the length of the Congo.

[Longbowman]

Absolutely irrelevant gives a man a dick. In my case a massive E-V13 balkanigger dick the length of the Congo.

Your clade is irrelevant, not YDNA itself, pls read.

[Longbowman]

It is interesting how haplogroup I1 (Y-DNA) matches with the settlements of the Germanic people.

Lundman was interested in blood types. Did he get to know haplogroup research during his lifetime?

Because I1 was spread by Germanic people, but being I1 doesn't make you Germanic, and being Germanic doesn't make you I1.

Well the human genome wasn't read until the 90s so no.

[Norka]

Your clade is irrelevant, not YDNA itself, pls read.

Hai nolevay, take a joke bruder.

[Longbowman]

Hai nolevay, take a joke bruder.

My sandnigga clade doesn't allow me to.

[MsSPF]

You're absolutely right but perhaps in certain cases, haplogroups can be interesting, especially if your haplogroup is atypical for your ethnicity/region.
My mtDNA is extremely rare in NorthWest Africa (less than 1%) and is more likely revealing of a distant maternal European ancestor.
I'm not an expert in genetics but I often got North Slavic/Scandinavian small % in my results and I strangely have many distant Scandinavian "cousins". Could be related to my haplogroup, I have no idea.

[Longbowman]

You're absolutely right but perhaps in certain cases, haplogroups can be interesting, especially if your haplogroup is atypical for your ethnicity/region.
My mtDNA is extremely rare in NorthWest Africa (less than 1%) and is more likely revealing of a distant maternal European ancestor.
I'm not an expert in genetics but I often got North Slavic/Scandinavian small % in my results and I strangely have many distant Scandinavian "cousins". Could be related to my haplogroup, I have no idea.

Interesting but not particularly relevant.

[Dibran]

Very interesting post. I agree it's not relevant for determining who or what you are. Be that intrinsically to your nature or what you are made of autosomally. I do believe it is useful for population migration of ancestral groups. Even then though, people should be very careful, considering little is still known. Especially for the most studied haplogroups, there is still little to no ADNA for a good part of the world. Most reliance is heavily based on modern populations which are not stand ins for ancestral movements. The only people who really think it means something are those with an agenda. What we actually know about these lines or ancient peoples who carried them is very little.

[Rethel]

Actual Importance of Haplogroups

None, exept as a proving tool.

[Longbowman]

None, exept as a proving tool.

A proving tool?

[Rethel]

A proving tool?

Yes.

[Wanderer]

Haplogroups are pretty much completely meaningless on an individual level, but they can be an interesting and useful tool to study entire populations.

[Rethel]

Haplogroups are pretty much completely meaningless on an individual level, but they can be an interesting and useful tool to study entire populations.

Populations are builded from individuals, and individuals are a members of populations, so...

[Hudayar]

They're almost useless

[Dandelion]

R1 is what matters. Doesn't matter ethnicity or skin colour.

[Rethel]

R1 is what matters. Doesn't matter ethnicity or skin colour.

:thumb001:

[Bobby Martnen]

Haplogroups are absolutely meaningless. They don't say anything about a person.

Would you rather your daughter marry someone who is mostly SSA but with I1, or mostly White but with E1b1a?

[Smeagol]

Would you rather your daughter marry someone who is mostly SSA but with I1, or mostly White but with E1b1a?

Second option of course. Haplogroups are irrelevant.

[Bobby Martnen]

Second option of course. Haplogroups are irrelevant.

I disagree, but I see where you are coming from.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

The real importance of haplogroups is they mark your direct lineage. That is all

[Dick]

Second option of course. Haplogroups are irrelevant.

It's irrelevant to you because you're born from jewish sperm.

[Smeagol]

It's irrelevant to you because you're born from jewish sperm.

It's objectively speaking irrelevant because it makes up an irrelevant percentage of your entire genome and says nothing about a person's racial character or anything else.

[Dick]

It's objectively speaking irrelevant because it makes up an irrelevant percentage of your entire genome and says nothing about a person's racial character or anything else.

Cope. You're a jew. Deal with it.

[Smeagol]

Cope. You're a jew. Deal with it.

In other words you can't even form an argument to support your opinion.

[Dick]

In other words you can't even form an argument to support your opinion.

One word: Cope.

[Smeagol]

One word: Cope.

So American niggers with haplogroup I or whatever=Germanic?

[Decius]

Haplogroups are absolutely meaningless. They don't say anything about a person.

I agree with this although I do find haplogroups interesting.

[Dick]

So American niggers with haplogroup I or whatever=Germanic?

Keep coping.

[Smeagol]

Where's Rethel? Maybe he can answer my question.

[Bobby Martnen]

So American niggers with haplogroup I or whatever=Germanic?

Aren't most Aframs with white Y-DNA R1b since they're mostly paternally from the British Isles, not Germany and Scandinavia?

[Smeagol]

Aren't most Aframs with white Y-DNA R1b since they're mostly paternally from the British Isles, not Germany and Scandinavia?

I don't know, but either way they're still niggers, which shows why haplogroups are irrelevant.

[Dick]

I wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for a jewish man.

Cope.

[Bobby Martnen]

I don't know, but either way they're still niggers, which shows why haplogroups are irrelevant.

But I know people with 3 NW Euro grandparents and then the paternal grandfather is like Persian or Indian, do you see them as White? They look White, but have an "ethnic"" surname and haplo.

[Smeagol]

But I know people with 3 NW Euro grandparents and then the paternal grandfather is like Persian or Indian, do you see them as White? They look White, but have an "ethnic"" surname and haplo.

I don't really see what this has to do with whether haplogroups matter or not, It's very recent ancestry.

[Longbowman]

Cope. You're a jew. Deal with it.

He isn't a Jew, Jewish sperm is meaningless. Only Jewish eggs are important.

[Bobby Martnen]

He isn't a Jew, Jewish sperm is meaningless. Only Jewish eggs are important.

Then why are Jews religiously referred to by their father's name (Isaac ben Abraham), and circumcision is only done to males, not females? It seems every other Jewish thing is passed down patrilineally, with the exception of actual Jewishness.

[Longbowman]

Then why are Jews religiously referred to by their father's name (Isaac ben Abraham), and circumcision is only done to males, not females? It seems every other Jewish thing is passed down patrilineally, with the exception of actual Jewishness.

Why is interesting but irrelevant. The fact is that Jewishness is passed down matrilineally regardless of other things that are passed down patrilineally. We do not accept paternal half-Jews as Jews (although Reform communities do if they were raised Jewish).

Religiously, Orthodox Jewish services do not call up or make references to individual women. In the one exception that they do, the mi shebeyrakh, women are referred to by their mother's name (Sara bat Rivka), by the way.

[Bobby Martnen]

Why is interesting but irrelevant. The fact is that Jewishness is passed down matrilineally regardless of other things that are passed down patrilineally. We do not accept paternal half-Jews as Jews (although Reform communities do if they were raised Jewish).

Religiously, Orthodox Jewish services do not call up or make references to individual women. In the one exception that they do, the mi shebeyrakh, women are referred to by their mother's name (Sara bat Rivka), by the way.

Interesting, especially in light of the fact that Ashkenazi Jews get most of their Israelite ancestry from their paternal lines.

But it kinda makes sense to me, because while you will always know who your mother is, the identity of your biological father was unverifiable until the advent of DNA testing.

[Longbowman]

Interesting, especially in light of the fact that Ashkenazi Jews get most of their Israelite ancestry from their paternal lines.

But it kinda makes sense to me, because while you will always know who your mother is, the identity of your biological father was unverifiable until the advent of DNA testing.

Nearly all Jews get most of their Israelite ancestry paternally, but as you say, it's a foolproof method.

[Bobby Martnen]

Nearly all Jews get most of their Israelite ancestry paternally, but as you say, it's a foolproof method.

If you married a Gentile woman, would you raise your children/consider them to be Jewish?

[Longbowman]

If you married a Gentile woman, would you raise your children/consider them to be Jewish?

I'd probably raise them steeped in substantial Jewish culture and tradition, but I don't know if I'd consider them Jewish, so much as provide the cultural and knowledge based background for them to convert if so they desired.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

It's objectively speaking irrelevant because it makes up an irrelevant percentage of your entire genome and says nothing about a person's racial character or anything else.No its important because haplogroups will tell you who you are related to directly and accurately you can be 14 percent italian it doesnt mean shit and you can only guess how you are related to soneone else if you are cousins. You need geneology paper haplogroups are pretty nuch set your this off spring. Autosomal dna ,recombines and mutates too fast haplogroups is more valuable for deep geneology than autosomal dna.

[Smeagol]

No its important because haplogroups will tell you who you are related to directly and accurately you can be 14 percent italian it doesnt mean shit and you can only guess how you are related to soneone else if you are cousins. You need geneology paper haplogroups are pretty nuch set your this off spring. Autosomal dna ,recombines and mutates too fast haplogroups is more valuable for deep geneology than autosomal dna.

It tells you about one distant ancestor thousands of years ago. It's a very tiny part of your overall genome. Yes, autosomal DNA is much more important.

[Bobby Martnen]

It tells you about one distant ancestor thousands of years ago. It's a very tiny part of your overall genome. Yes, autosomal DNA is much more important.

What is your haplo?

[Smeagol]

What is your haplo?

I guess R1a. I didn't take a test but some of my cousins did.

[Bobby Martnen]

I guess R1a. I didn't take a test but some of my cousins did.

So your grandfather's mother was the Jewish one then? And your grandfather's father was Slavic?

[Kelmendasi]

So your grandfather's mother was the Jewish one then? And your grandfather's father was Slavic?
Not all R1a is Slavic, R1a-Z284 and L664 are Germanic

[Bobby Martnen]

Not all R1a is Slavic, R1a-Z284 and L664 are Germanic

As far as I'm concerned, R1 can be semi-Germanic, but only I1 will ever be truly Germanic.

[Kelmendasi]

As far as I'm concerned, R1 can be semi-Germanic, but only I1 will ever be truly Germanic.
No

[Bobby Martnen]

No

Dude you're J1, why are you defending R1?

[Kelmendasi]

Dude you're J1, why are you defending R1?
Because haplo wars are pure retardation and facts are what matter

[Smeagol]

So your grandfather's mother was the Jewish one then? And your grandfather's father was Slavic?

No, both of his parents were at least part Jewish, but his grandfather likely wasn't at all.

[Bobby Martnen]

No, both of his parents were at least part Jewish, but his grandfather likely wasn't at all.

His paternal grandfather?

This is really interesting to me, because I'm interested in genealogy. Do most Jews have recent gentile admixture?

[Smeagol]

His paternal grandfather?

This is really interesting to me, because I'm interested in genealogy. Do most Jews have recent gentile admixture?

I think so. His whole father's side of the family isn't known very well. All I know for sure is he had recent non-jewish ancestry which must have been Slavic I guess. This is reflected in my cousins DNA results. They each get like 18% Ashkenazi or something like that. I don't think the average Jew has recent gentile admixture. Not sure.

[Bobby Martnen]

I think so. His whole father's side of the family isn't known very well. All I know for sure is he had recent non-jewish ancestry which must have been Slavic I guess. This is reflected in my cousins DNA results. They each get like 18% Ashkenazi or something like that. I don't think the average Jew has recent gentile admixture. Not sure.

You should take a DNA test. They're fun.

Also, if you're interested in learning more about your genealogy, I'd recommend https://www.reddit.com/r/Genealogy/

I know reddit has a bad rep, but their genealogy board is actually really good, and I've gotten a lot of really good info there.

Right now, though, given what you've said, I'd guess your grandfather was 3/4 Jewish, 1/4 Russian.

[Longbowman]

Do most Jews have recent gentile admixture?

No.

[Mingle]

They don't affect your appearance but they tell a lot about your ancestral origins.

[Bobby Martnen]

No.

When did they get their 40-55% Euro?

[Longbowman]

When did they get their 40-55% Euro?

Ancient admixture from founding events primarily.

[Bobby Martnen]

Ancient admixture from founding events primarily.

Thanks. For what it's worth, I know a lot of people who are 1/2 Jewish, and a few who are 3/4 and 1/4.

[Longbowman]

Thanks. For what it's worth, I know a lot of people who are 1/2 Jewish, and a few who are 3/4 and 1/4.

So do I, but it's not the norm, and it was very, very rare until recently, especially considering people weren't allowed to convert out of Christianity or Islam until even present day in some countries.

[Bobby Martnen]

So do I, but it's not the norm, and it was very, very rare until recently, especially considering people weren't allowed to convert out of Christianity or Islam until even present day in some countries.

Converting out of Christianity was illegal in the West? I never remember that from my American history classes

[Longbowman]

Converting out of Christianity was illegal in the West? I never remember that from my American history classes

Not in the US. Not for a couple of hundred years in most of Europe.

[Bobby Martnen]

Not in the US. Not for a couple of hundred years in most of Europe.

Thanks.

I know some siblings, and their paternal grandfather was a Catholic of North Italian descent, but the rest of their grandparents were Jewish, and they are Jewish.

And Smeagol said his grandfather's paternal grandfather was a Slav and the rest of his grandparents were probably Jewish.

And Emmanuel Celler had three Jewish grandparents and one German one, and was Jewish.

So I thought that this kind of thing was very common in the Jewish community.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

It tells you about one distant ancestor thousands of years ago. It's a very tiny part of your overall genome. Yes, autosomal DNA is much more important.Autosomal is useful for identifying parents and siblings. Beyond that its alot of guess work. Theres a chart but when you become 2 generations down of a common ancestor or more its more hard to track how you are related. Where as haplogroups are set in stone. You are related to this person. All you have to do is track that one line in the paperwork and you find your common ancestor. Autosomal is way more tricky because autosomal distribution is random and recombines And no. Its not thousands of years only. Also within a few hundreds of years or less if you have exact match. Autosomal DNA didnt really help me so much in finding connections with people. I just dig in records and find the connection

[Smeagol]

And Smeagol said his grandfather's paternal grandfather was a Slav and the rest of his grandparents were probably Jewish.

I'm not 100% sure on the details there. Like I said, my grandpa's dad's side is sort of a mystery.

[Bobby Martnen]

I'm not 100% sure on the details there. Like I said, my grandpa's dad's side is sort of a mystery.

I know, but given the 18% Jewish for your cousins and the Slavic haplogroup, I think that's the most likely. Also, I've taken some classes on genealogy, so if you want me to help you with yours, I'd be happy to.

[Thot Whisperer]

Of course haplogroups are really important if they weren’t then have guys shouldn’t have a problem with their girls sleeping with other man

[Longbowman]

Thanks.

I know some siblings, and their paternal grandfather was a Catholic of North Italian descent, but the rest of their grandparents were Jewish, and they are Jewish.

And Smeagol said his grandfather's paternal grandfather was a Slav and the rest of his grandparents were probably Jewish.

And Emmanuel Celler had three Jewish grandparents and one German one, and was Jewish.

So I thought that this kind of thing was very common in the Jewish community.

Smeagol isn't Jewish, that's the point. The majority of people who are mixed are not Jewish. There are exceptions, but they're the minority.

[Longbowman]

Of course haplogroups are really important if they weren’t then have guys shouldn’t have a problem with their girls sleeping with other man

Shaggy confirmed for being OK with men sleeping with his girlfriend as long as they have the same YDNA as Shaggy.

[Wrong]

As far as I'm concerned, R1 can be semi-Germanic, but only I1 will ever be truly Germanic.
You need to read more before posting misinformation.

People are here to learn.

There is the theory of I1 being Indo-Europeanized somewhere in Central Europe by R1-carriers, before tagging along with them to Northern Europe.

[ovidiu]

The real importance of haplogroups is they mark your direct lineage. That is all

When you go back many generations, that direct lineage doesn't count for any more than other of your ancestors' lineages. It may be interesting, but that's about it.

[Bobby Martnen]

You need to read more before posting misinformation.

People are here to learn.

There is the theory of I1 being Indo-Europeanized somewhere in Central Europe by R1-carriers, before tagging along with them to Northern Europe.

Still, I1 is native to Europe in a way R1 is not and will never be.

[Thot Whisperer]

Shaggy confirmed for being OK with men sleeping with his girlfriend as long as they have the same YDNA as Shaggy.

Nah only betas are ok with their society’s being filled with haplogroups that are different to theirs

[Longbowman]

Nah only betas are ok with their society’s being filled with haplogroups that are different to theirs

societies*

Whereas Alphas are OK by being cucked by their brothers and fathers, got it.

[Bobby Martnen]

I wouldn't want any daughter of mine getting bred by a man that wasn't I1.

[Longbowman]

I wouldn't want any daughter of mine getting bred by a man that wasn't I1.

Will you insist on a DNA test for every prospective suitor?

What if your daughter demurs?

What about I1, but black?

[Bobby Martnen]

Will you insist on a DNA test for every prospective suitor?

I'll buy it for him as an engagement gift. That way, he won't see my true intentions.


What if your daughter demurs?

Then someone's not going to get walked down the aisle.


What about I1, but black?

I'd prefer that to a "white" R1ethelite...

[Longbowman]

I'll buy it for him as an engagement gift. That way, he won't see my true intentions.

'Sorry Pa, I don't trust these Jew DNA companies. They take your data for their own malevolent purposes.'


Then someone's not going to get walked down the aisle.

Accomplished R1b < druggie I1?


I'd prefer that to a "white" R1ethelite...

Well no one wants Rethel as a son in law.

[Bobby Martnen]

'Sorry Pa, I don't trust these Jew DNA companies. They take your data for their own malevolent purposes.'

I'm not antisemitic, though. No DNA test = no marrying into the Martnen family.


Accomplished R1b < druggie I1?

Difficult question. I1 men already lost enough of their daughters to R1ethelites back when R1ethelites came to Europe from Central Asia. I really want my lineage to continue on.


Well no one wants Rethel as a son in law.

Do you know what got him permabanned?

[Longbowman]

I'm not antisemitic, though. No DNA test = no marrying into the Martnen family.

I know but he might be.


Difficult question. I1 men already lost enough of their daughters to R1ethelites back when R1ethelites came to Europe from Central Asia. I really want my lineage to continue on.

It's not your lineage, though, in the same way my paternal cousins, if I had any, would be of my clan, I guess, to use Rethel's logic, but not my lineage.

I mean realistically if you had a daughter you wouldn't care but still.


Do you know what got him permabanned?

No

[Bobby Martnen]

I know but he might be.

Antisemitism is very uncommon in my region and social class.


It's not your lineage, though, in the same way my paternal cousins, if I had any, would be of my clan, I guess, to use Rethel's logic, but not my lineage.

Still, it's better for me if she marries another I1-man, so that she marries someone with a similar background and mentality. I mean, how would you feel if you had a daughter marry an I1?


I mean realistically if you had a daughter you wouldn't care but still.

Why do you say that?


No

Thanks. It's just cause I see that Rethel quoted me twice in a thread that has now been deleted, so I was just wondering if he made another thread about me.

[Longbowman]

Antisemitism is very uncommon in my region and social class.

:thumb001:


Still, it's better for me if she marries another I1-man, so that she marries someone with a similar background and mentality. I mean, how would you feel if you had a daughter marry an I1?

Wouldn't care at all.


Why do you say that?

Idk, your daughter finds a nice man she loves, he's great, you're still an anthrotard - not going to happen.

How did man survive before DNA testing? :rolleyes:

[Bobby Martnen]

:thumb001:

:)


Wouldn't care at all.

I guess I just have a lot of haplo pride. I feel I'd be letting down my forefathers if I gave my daughter to a non-I1 man.


Idk, your daughter finds a nice man she loves, he's great, you're still an anthrotard - not going to happen.

I mean, I don't think I'd actually try to call off the wedding, but I'd be very disappointed in her.


How did man survive before DNA testing? :rolleyes:

Because my ancestors were Mennonites, and Mennonites, like Orthodox Jews, have very high sexual morals.

[Thot Whisperer]

My posts have gotten deleted an explanation would have been respectful at least....

[Longbowman]

Because my ancestors were Mennonites, and Mennonites, like Orthodox Jews, have very high sexual morals.

But mixed YDNA, like Orthodox Jews.

[Longbowman]

My posts have gotten deleted an explanation would have been respectful at least....

I deleted cyclical off-topic posts where you just go around calling me a bitch. Is this respectful enough for you?

[jingorex]

There is G and then there is the rest of you...people.

[Bobby Martnen]

But mixed YDNA, like Orthodox Jews.

Most Mennonites are I1...

[Dragoon]

Im not an expert on DNA.

But Isnt I1 usually associated with Nordic ydna? More accurately Mesolithic Euro?

I recently read that R1b may be the dominant ydna in Germans but R1b was originally not IndoEuropean speakers.
And Germanic language was created by spread and borrowing of Celtic and Slavic.

Also how come some people say Nordic = Germanic?

Sometimes confusing between the language and the dna.

(its just questions to learn).

[Kelmendasi]

Im not an expert on DNA.

But Isnt I1 usually associated with Nordic ydna? More accurately Mesolithic Euro?

I recently read that R1b may be the dominant ydna in Germans but R1b was originally not IndoEuropean speakers.
And Germanic language was created by spread and borrowing of Celtic and Slavic.

Also how come some people say Nordic = Germanic?

Sometimes confusing between the language and the dna.

(its just questions to learn).
I1 itself probably arose in the Neolithic in Central Europe going by how the oldest I1 sample was from Neolithic Hungary and I1 hasn't been found in Mesolithic or Paleolithic Europe so far although it's ancestor was in Europe since the Paleolithic. The R1b which is found in modern Europeans is from Indo-Europeans and was originally found among them, the Yamna were dominantly R1b going by ancient samples. Germanic isn't the result of Slavic and Celtic mixing, the Germanic languages developed from their own branch of Indo-Europeans. People link Nordic with Germanics as Germanics arose in the Nordic Bronze Age culture I guess

[Kelmendasi]

Most Mennonites are I1...
How do you know this?

[Bobby Martnen]

How do you know this?

Because most West Germans are.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

When you go back many generations, that direct lineage doesn't count for any more than other of your ancestors' lineages. It may be interesting, but that's about it.

Actually thats when its more important. Because autosomal dna cant prove too distant relations. Haplos can though.

[Kelmendasi]

Because most West Germans are.
Mennonites are mainly found in Frisia iirc which is a mix of R1b and I1. West Germans are still in majority R1b as far as I know

[Bobby Martnen]

Mennonites are mainly found in Frisia iirc which is a mix of R1b and I1. West Germans are still in majority R1b as far as I know

West German R1b is mostly from post-war population movement.s

[Kelmendasi]

West German R1b is mostly from post-war population movement.s
How?

[Dick]

Free shipping with purchase of $50 or more.



West German R1b is mostly from post-war population movement.s

https://dnageeks.com/collections/paternal-haplotees/products/the-i1-haplotee


How?

https://dnageeks.com/collections/paternal-haplotees/products/the-j1-haplotee

[Bobby Martnen]

How?

Because a lot of Eastern Germans (mostly R1a and R1b) were resettled in West Germany after the war.

[Kelmendasi]

Because a lot of Eastern Germans (mostly R1a and R1b) were resettled in West Germany after the war.
Sure but this isn't the real reason for the rise of R1b in west Germany lol. Haplogroup I is in fact more frequent in the east of Germany, R1b-U106 is common in west Germany alongside some I1/I2

[Wrong]

Still, I1 is native to Europe in a way R1 is not and will never be.
You are the brothers of J. This is something irrefutable that you cannot escape for all eternity.

[Bobby Martnen]

You are the brothers of J. This is something irrefutable that you cannot escape for all eternity.

At least we're not the brothers of Rethel...

[Wrong]

At least we're not the brothers of Rethel...
Truth is that R1 put us all the fuck in line. They dominated Europe, we rag-tagged with them.

[Bobby Martnen]

Truth is that R1 put us all the fuck in line. They dominated Europe, we rag-tagged with them.

Yeah, but I1 will take their daughters and breed them with our masculinity.

[bradjenkins]

Haplogroups are absolutely not at all useful as you still don't know anything about the person...

[Congolese Rice]

My yDNA haplogroup is R1b1a1a2a1a2c1

and my mtDNA is L1'2'3'4'5'6


i dare yall to guess where both sides of my family are predominantly from :D

[Livin]

Both haplos and autosomal are useful and important!

People who reject their Ydna,they feeling shame for their ancestry.

[Congolese Rice]

Both haplos and autosomal are useful and important!

People who reject their Ydna,they feeling shame for their ancestry.

idk if yDNA has much to do with ancestry, but yeah it shows where ur family originated.


my mtDNA haplogroup is 170.000-200.000 thousand years old, and it either originated in North Africa, East Africa, or Central Africa.

[Livin]

idk if yDNA has much to do with ancestry, but yeah it shows where ur family originated.


my mtDNA haplogroup is 170.000-200.000 thousand years old, and it either originated in North Africa, East Africa, or Central Africa.


Who cares about mtDna rofl.

[Dick]

Y haplo is the most important part of a male’s DNA. Anyone that says otherwise is an sjw leftard that believes in 123 genders

[Nazarene]

Y haplo is the most important part of a male’s DNA. Anyone that says otherwise is an sjw leftard that believes in 123 genders

BASED

[Mr. Anybody]

Who cares about mtDna rofl.

ignorance detected.warning

[Livin]

ignorance detected.warning

You care about who’s fucked your mother and grandmother rofl....I don’t give a shit tbh.

[Longbowman]

People who value ydna but not mtdna - bizarre, illogical. 'But I can't pass down my mtdna' OK but you can only pass your ydna down to men, do women not count? For women wouldn't mtdna be just as/even more important because not only do they pass it down, they pass it down to children of both genders?

People who think ydna is very important (mostly owders or off-germanics with an interesting ydna, and/or rethel) please explain how white English people with ydna A should identify: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2590664/

[Congolese Rice]

Who cares about mtDna rofl.

i do xd im more interested in my mtDNA than yDNA rather. yDNA is somethin i dont give a damn about, lol wow, this haplogroup R1b originated in Britain and Germany! super interesting!

it wouldve been more interesting if i was 100% european but frankly i dont really care.


rofl

[Slavic Italian]

I was pretty proud to find out I was R1a1a. The Slavs have always played a major role in world affairs. Played the biggest role in defeating the Nazis. First to put a man in space. Yet, disappointed in most of the Russians I have met on here. They are generally not too sharp and full of shit.

[Congolese Rice]

Y haplo is the most important part of a male’s DNA. Anyone that says otherwise is an sjw leftard that believes in 123 genders

it might be, doesnt say much to me though. Sure, ill pass on R1b to my kids probably, but im also half african, so im obviously more interested in my mtDNA than yDNA in that case.


my yDNA doesnt tell me anything i dont know already, my dad's family is from western europe! interesting stuff dude xd


https://media1.tenor.com/images/11f1c473517f053560f17a4a7795f211/tenor.gif?itemid=4281031

[Dick]

it might be, doesnt say much to me though. Sure, ill pass on R1b to my kids probably, but im also half african, so im obviously more interested in my mtDNA than yDNA in that case.


my yDNA doesnt tell me anything i dont know already, my dad's family is from western europe! interesting stuff dude xd


https://media1.tenor.com/images/11f1c473517f053560f17a4a7795f211/tenor.gif?itemid=4281031

You wouldn't be a man without your y chromosome, that's my point muh nigga


The Y chromosome is disappearing – so what will happen to men?

http://theconversation.com/the-y-chromosome-is-disappearing-so-what-will-happen-to-men-90125

[Congolese Rice]

You wouldn't be a man without your y chromosome, that's my point muh nigga



http://theconversation.com/the-y-chromosome-is-disappearing-so-what-will-happen-to-men-90125

yeah ok thats true. then ur correct, i am glad i am a man holy shit.

and well shit, i hope it doesnt disappear XD and it has 4.6m years left, who knows if we will even exist for that long lmao, i doubt it.


by that time a meteorite would've already smashed our asses.

[Slavic Italian]

it might be, doesnt say much to me though. Sure, ill pass on R1b to my kids probably, but im also half african, so im obviously more interested in my mtDNA than yDNA in that case.


my yDNA doesnt tell me anything i dont know already, my dad's family is from western europe! interesting stuff dude xd


https://media1.tenor.com/images/11f1c473517f053560f17a4a7795f211/tenor.gif?itemid=4281031

Your dad met a sista and couldn't resist her.

[Congolese Rice]

Your dad met a sista and couldn't resist her.

jup, unfortunately :^) i wouldve rather had 2 afro-caribbean parents but the decision isnt mine lol

[Dick]

yeah ok thats true. then ur correct, i am glad i am a man holy shit.

and well shit, i hope it doesnt disappear XD and it has 4.6m years left, who knows if we will even exist for that long lmao, i doubt it.


by that time a meteorite would've already smashed our asses.

Y chromosome is already disappearing, just look around you. Males are becoming effeminate fags that dont care about ydna.

[Slavic Italian]

jup, unfortunately :^) i wouldve rather had 2 afro-caribbean parents but the decision isnt mine lol

The more mix you have the more heathier they claim a person is. They have built in tolerance against particular diseases from their respective areas of ancestry or so I am told.

[Congolese Rice]

Y chromosome is already disappearing, just look around you. Males are becoming effeminate fags that dont care about ydna.

thats true, no wonder the dutch stand no chance against me in hand to hand combat. i still retain a good chunk of my yDNA and i have african genes, these little mengirls dont stand a chance XD

[gıulıoımpa]

Y chromosome is already disappearing, just look around you. Males are becoming effeminate fags that dont care about ydna.

yes .

http://theconversation.com/the-y-chromosome-is-disappearing-so-what-will-happen-to-men-90125


it seems also that Y-less people have already been born in this world

[Dick]

yes .

http://theconversation.com/the-y-chromosome-is-disappearing-so-what-will-happen-to-men-90125


it seems also that Y-less people have already been born in this world

You're kidding, right.

[gıulıoımpa]

The more mix you have the more heathier they claim a person is. They have built in tolerance against particular diseases from their respective areas of ancestry or so I am told.

in theory it is beneficial in the short run , but deteremental in the long run.

if you think about it , the offspring will have more("2 times") potential recessive genes that can cause conditions becuse some are exclusive to one race.

so it could be that one afro asian inherits lactose intolerance from asian side and sickle cell from the other, ad even if it does not he may inherit those recessively, exposing more his offspring.

[Mr. Anybody]

Y chromosome is already disappearing, just look around you. Males are becoming effeminate fags that dont care about ydna.

agree.girls must learn to fuck themselves in the next few thousand years.

[Mr. Anybody]

thats true, no wonder the dutch stand no chance against me in hand to hand combat. i still retain a good chunk of my yDNA and i have african genes, these little mengirls dont stand a chance XD

A true healthy dutch can break your neck in seconds,and you can notice that in the hospital(drinking soup with pipette)

[Congolese Rice]

A true healthy dutch can break your neck in seconds,and you can notice that in the hospital(drinking soup with pipette)

lol, nope. a average dutch cant beat me. ofcourse a 18-19 year old male who goes to the gym twice a week and eats stampot 5x a week stands more of a chance against me XD


dutch people in general arent strong and i know this. the only dutch people i am wary of are those who are gym fanatics and ppl who work in construction. Ive met a ginger called Jordy and that guy was way taller than me and also pretty damn strong if i can say so. he's like a ginger bear. thats the only guy i dont wanna fight

[Bobby Martnen]

My Y-DNA is a major part of my identity.

[Livin]

Y haplo is the most important part of a male’s DNA. Anyone that says otherwise is an sjw leftard that believes in 123 genders

I agree 100%.People who reject their ydna are ashamed and nothing else.

[Longbowman]

I wonder how our fathers and their fathers identified without knowing their yDNA :rolleyes:

[Bobby Martnen]

I wonder how our fathers and their fathers identified without knowing their yDNA :rolleyes:

My father knows his Y-DNA because I told him about it.

[Longbowman]

My father knows his Y-DNA because I told him about it.

:rolleyes:

Alright, lads, your great-grandparents. Or indeed your father until the age of about 50.

[Bobby Martnen]

:rolleyes:

Alright, lads, your great-grandparents. Or indeed your father until the age of about 50.

There were less foreigners and Meds and Slavs in my country then, so they could have their own identity and have the American identity be for them.

[Longbowman]

There were less foreigners and Meds and Slavs in my country then, so they could have their own identity and have the American identity be for them.

there were fewer Slavs in 2005 before commercial testing became readily available?

look, Bobby, it's nice, I guess, that you like YDNA, but pretending that it's inseparable or even a constituent part of what a person's identity should be when 98% of the population and 100% of our ancestors don't even know their YDNA is a bad joke, to the point I originally thought its exponents were being ironic.

[rein]

That’s true. Autosomal results are more important.

[Bobby Martnen]

there were fewer Slavs in 2005 before commercial testing became readily available?

look, Bobby, it's nice, I guess, that you like YDNA, but pretending that it's inseparable or even a constituent part of what a person's identity should be when 98% of the population and 100% of our ancestors don't even know their YDNA is a bad joke, to the point I originally thought its exponents were being ironic.

Fewer people from places other than Northwestern Europe in America when my great-grandfather was alive.

In the olden days, people didn't know it, but I know mine and I identify with it.

[Longbowman]

Fewer people from places other than Northwestern Europe in America when my great-grandfather was alive.

In the olden days, people didn't know it, but I know mine and I identify with it.

To what extent? Are other I1 people your kith and kin even if they're not even vaguely related to you? Say some Finn, or even a foreigner, Med, or Slav who is I1?

[Bobby Martnen]

To what extent? Are other I1 people your kith and kin even if they're not even vaguely related to you? Say some Finn, or even a foreigner, Med, or Slav who is I1?

Some "dark people" have I1 because they descend from their slave master.

But I definitely feel a connection to other Germanic I1 people like Teutone.

[Mingle]

Basically, haplogroups are just a genetic surname.

[Longbowman]

Some "dark people" have I1 because they descend from their slave master.

But I definitely feel a connection to other Germanic I1 people like Teutone.

OK, so, you don't in fact identify with I1. You only feel a connection to people who are from your pan-ethnicity anyhow.

There are plenty of non-Germanic I1 people who are not descended from slave masters, too, btw, but I'm not sure why that matters. You think being I1 is important, so you should be indiscriminate in how it got to where it is. People with R1b who are European have to 'deal' with the several tribes of Cameroon who are all R1b. You people are defending yDNA as a source of identity, you can't just cut out people you don't like. That's No True Scotsman.

[Bobby Martnen]

OK, so, you don't in fact identify with I1. You only feel a connection to people who are from your pan-ethnicity anyhow.

There are plenty of non-Germanic I1 people who are not descended from slave masters, too, btw, but I'm not sure why that matters. You think being I1 is important, so you should be indiscriminate in how it got to where it is. People with R1b who are European have to 'deal' with the several tribes of Cameroon who are all R1b. You people are defending yDNA as a source of identity, you can't just cut out people you don't like. That's No True Scotsman.

I'd rather my daughter marry a I1 Dark Man than a R1b White Man.

[Longbowman]

I'd rather my daughter marry a I1 Dark Man than a R1b White Man.

You change your tune quickly when inconsistency is pointed out, my friend.

Either way this is all patently absurd. There's a good chance you are not the same yDNA as your maternal grandfather and there's a good chance that your grandchildren won't be I1, either. Will you still identify more with the 'I1 Dark Man' than them?

[İrle]

Haplogroups are extremely overrated in genetic geneology.

[rein]

societies*

Whereas Alphas are OK by being cucked by their brothers and fathers, got it.

Deuteronomy 25:5-10 King James Version (KJV)

5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.

6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.

7 And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother.

8 Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her;

9 Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house.

10 And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.

[Bobby Martnen]

You change your tune quickly when inconsistency is pointed out, my friend.

Either way this is all patently absurd. There's a good chance you are not the same yDNA as your maternal grandfather and there's a good chance that your grandchildren won't be I1, either. Will you still identify more with the 'I1 Dark Man' than them?

I would never give my precious daughters away to a non I1 man

My maternal grandfather is probably E1b

But my paternal grandfather shared I1 with his maternal grandfather

[oszkar07]

How come some haplogroups can be found in small amounts in some populations where they really would be least expected ???

For example I am in a IM223 FTDNA project group , and there have been individuals with this haplogroup from places such as Iraq, Armenia, Egypt, Turkey , Macedonia, and Serbia, even though they would be in a minority of their populations that have this HG its still amazing that what is generally North Euro haplogroup can be spread so far and wide.

Anyone seen other examples of this with other HG's ?

[Longbowman]

I would never give my precious daughters away to a non I1 man

My maternal grandfather is probably E1b

But my paternal grandfather shared I1 with his maternal grandfather

So you don't identify with your maternal grandfather? Pff, your daughters aren't going to listen to you with regards to yDNA, don't be mad.


Deuteronomy 25:5-10 King James Version (KJV)

5 If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.

6 And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.

7 And if the man like not to take his brother's wife, then let his brother's wife go up to the gate unto the elders, and say, My husband's brother refuseth to raise up unto his brother a name in Israel, he will not perform the duty of my husband's brother.

8 Then the elders of his city shall call him, and speak unto him: and if he stand to it, and say, I like not to take her;

9 Then shall his brother's wife come unto him in the presence of the elders, and loose his shoe from off his foot, and spit in his face, and shall answer and say, So shall it be done unto that man that will not build up his brother's house.

10 And his name shall be called in Israel, The house of him that hath his shoe loosed.

I don't get your point mate.


How come some haplogroups can be found in small amounts in some populations where they really would be least expected ???

For example I am in a IM233 FTDNA project group , and there have been individuals with this haplogroup from places such as Iraq, Armenia, Egypt, Turkey , Macedonia, and Serbia, even though they would be in a minority of their populations that have this HG its still amazing that what is generally North Euro haplogroup can be spread so far and wide.

Anyone seen other examples of this with other HG's ?

As I said, people move around, even in small numbers. Let's say an I1 person joined the First Crusade and raped some woman in Antioch. Let's say that woman's kid ends up moving to Qamishli. And that man's kid moves to Baghdad. Pow, I1 in Iraq. Is that Arab North Euro? Obviously not, no matter what people pretend. You're not kin. Just as even though my YDNA is Natufian and ancient Israelite I am more connected to I1 Ashkenazim than to E-L29 Jordanians and Palestinians (of which there are many).

[Thracian]

Autosomal DNA could change if you mix with other ethnicities. Haplogroups will still remain.

[Longbowman]

Autosomal DNA could change if you mix with other ethnicities. Haplogroups will still remain.

Then the autosomal DNA is a more accurate representation of who you are, proving my point.

[Thracian]

Then the autosomal DNA is a more accurate representation of who you are, proving my point.

Indeed. Haplogroups also play aimportant role to answer where your great great parents come from. But obviously, AuDNA represents who you are.

[Longbowman]

Indeed. Haplogroups also play aimportant role to answer where your great great parents come from. But obviously, AuDNA represents who you are.

Only two of my great great grandparents though, and even then atDNA is a better tell of that story. atDNA is good for population-wide studies but, again, atDNA is usually better, with haplogroups providing supporting evidence.

[arkas]

Is it possible to be assigned a haplogroup via a 23andme test for example, yet show no ethnicity estimates associated with where the haplogroup is associated with?

[Kelmendasi]

Is it possible to be assigned a haplogroup via a 23andme test for example, yet show no ethnicity estimates associated with where the haplogroup is associated with?
Yes

[Thracian]

Only two of my great great grandparents though, and even then atDNA is a better tell of that story. atDNA is good for population-wide studies but, again, atDNA is usually better, with haplogroups providing supporting evidence.

I totally agree with you.

[Red Pill]

Haplotypes and haplogroups are relevant in that they can tell if extant populations had a common ancestor. Haplotypes used in studies of population genetics tell very little about the phenotype of present day human groups, because most have not been affected by environmental selection (or sexual selection, which could be a factor for some traits like eye color). As these haplogroups overlap between different populations, they are used by most geneticists and anthropologists in the West to support the claim that human races have no biological foundation. However, if I'm not mistaken many Russian and Chinese scholars still accept the concept of human races, and so generally do forensic anthropologists. Of course, as we all know, in the West ideology permeates the debate on race. This is what happens when a researcher steps out of the line:
https://quillette.com/2018/12/07/academics-mobbing-of-a-young-scholar-must-be-denounced/

[Rocinante]

Haplogroup mappings have to be viewed collectively, not individually. It doesn't work from that point of view. Also, if there is an autosomal mapping, the haplogroup mapping must be directly ruled out.

[Slavic Italian]

H1 is as boring as chalk.

Not for these Germanic fanboys that make up much of the forum.

[Rocinante]

Not for these Germanic fanboys that make up much of the forum.

May i ask why the hate (thumbs down)?

[Badr madani]

So how do i know if my anscestor are weither arabs or berbers if not by haplogroup ?

[Longbowman]

So how do i know if my anscestor are weither arabs or berbers if not by haplogroup ?

You're Moroccan? They were Berbers. There, sorted.

Haplogroup tells you nothing. Yesterday I saw an Armenian with Irish YDNA. Does it make him Irish by the standards of the Armenians or the Irish? No.

[Badr madani]

You're Moroccan? They were Berbers. There, sorted.

Haplogroup tells you nothing. Yesterday I saw an Armenian with Irish YDNA. Does it make him Irish by the standards of the Armenians or the Irish? No.

So this banu hilal expansion is just a myth ?

[Longbowman]

So this banu hilal expansion is just a myth ?

No, but even if you can prove your male-line agnatic ancestor in 800AD was Arab, Berber, white, black, whatever, it doesn't make you any of those things, and it doesn't mean your ancestry in 800AD was any of those things.

And ofc Banu Hilal had many YDNAs.

[Badr madani]

No, but even if you can prove your male-line agnatic ancestor in 800AD was Arab, Berber, white, black, whatever, it doesn't make you any of those things, and it doesn't mean your ancestry in 800AD was any of those things.

And ofc Banu Hilal had many YDNAs.

So i should simply consider my self moroccan without complicating things even further ?

[Longbowman]

So i should simply consider my self moroccan without complicating things even further ?

This would be the case even if it somehow turned out your own mother was Saudi.

[TheMaestro]

E-V13 Dance

https://i.imgur.com/xSp698n.gif

[Rethel]

So how do i know if my anscestor are weither arabs or berbers if not by haplogroup ?

There is no other way to ultimately proof it, than hg.
Even if you would have unbroken records from the last
150 generations, then there would be still a need for a
verification, and this could have to be done only by hg.


So i should simply consider my self moroccan without complicating things even further ?

Nope.

Don't listen to him. He has a weird life-goal to destroy or to spoil everything what
is good, heritable,traditional, or - especially and foremost - paternal, even himself.

[Longbowman]

Yes, listen to Rethel, of course. With the advent of YDNA testing becoming commercially available in c.2008, you should change (or be prepared to change) your identity 100% depending on what FTDNA tells you your haplotype is. Anyone who disagrees wants to 'destroy everything good, traditional, and paternal' in the world (even though Rethel himself wants to destroy everything that is traditional and matrilineal, so tradition isn't always a good thing).

If you take a test and it turns out your YDNA is R1b-L27 you would have to identify as English rather than Arab or Berber. Insist upon this to English people. If they don't accept you because you are brown and not a native English speaker, just ignore them, as they clearly want to 'destroy everything good and paternal' in the world.

[Petalpusher]

Now the interesting story to come will be to explain how Yamnaya appeared to have segregated all the R1a from them, like they had some Full ftdna Y test back then. Bit mind blowing.

[Longbowman]

Now the interesting story to come will be to explain how Yamnaya appeared to have segregated all the R1a from them, like they had some Full ftdna Y test back then. Bit mind blowing.

Some people legit believe ethnogenesis myths and aetiologies - and some people not only believe them, but base their entire ideologies, identities and worldviews around them.

[Rethel]

everything that is traditional and matrilineal

For example what? :coffee:


If you take a test and it turns out your YDNA is R1b-L27 you would have to identify as English rather than Arab or Berber. Insist upon this to English people. If they don't accept you because you are brown and not a native English speaker, just ignore them, as they clearly want to 'destroy everything good and paternal' in the world.

Said a jewish Hamite, who everyday pretends to be english himself...

[Petalpusher]

Some people legit believe ethnogenesis myths and aetiologies - and some people not only believe them, but base their entire ideologies, identities and worldviews around them.

It's probably cultural as they split and evolved differently at some point. Im just wondering what are the odds you find some R1a before, some afterwards and none in that one specific culture at the time we sample them, at least yet.

[Longbowman]

For example what? :coffee:

There are plenty of groups which determine membership matrilineally, from the Jew to the Cherokee to the Tibetan.


Said a jewish Hamite, who everyday pretends to be english himself...

Thank you for proving my point.

[Longbowman]

It's probably cultural as they split and evolved differently at some point. Im just wondering what are the odds you find some R1a before, some afterwards and none in that one specific culture at the time we sample them, at least yet.

I want to know what happened to the C carriers.

[Rethel]

Now the interesting story to come will be to explain how Yamnaya appeared to have segregated all the R1a from them, like they had some Full ftdna Y test back then. Bit mind blowing.

They were just small in number during EHG period, but later, when they grew, they dominated CWC.
It is even logical, why they did not create a mishmash: because they have patriarchal system, what
means, that majority of subgroups did live separetely by the houses of their fathers. So, later bigger
groups were also separated. In the film which I putted, it is said, that all Yamnaya people were very
close related, and the migrations from BBC to Afanasievo had ancestors just 5-7 generations back.
So, it is not strage, that Yamna didn;t have too much R1a, becasue they were from different lineage.
But there also is one example of Yamnayan R1a - obviously some cousin, who coincidently died, when
he did visit his relatives, and was buried on their yard.

[Petalpusher]

I want to know what happened to the C carriers.

Just another R1b genocide before we even came to be. Ancient PIE scouts.

[Rethel]

There are plenty of groups which determine membership matrilineally, from the Jew to the Cherokee to the Tibetan.

Firstly, Jews are NOT matrylinear.
Secondly, do your kindergarten homework with the link, which I did recommend you.
Thirdly - where, and when I said anything against Cherokee or Tibetan, as they never
were a subject of disscussion, neither noone ever insist to disscuss this problem?

You are insane. You are making up stuff, to justify your fury, which you show every time, when you see a word paternal or patrilinear.
The fact that you hate your own father, really is not a reason, to impute to everyone, that 99% of people live wrongly, or that whole
history, religions, tradition, customs or just human instincts are wrong. Thou are not the measurement of everything. Wake up.

[Longbowman]

Firstly, Jews are NOT matrylinear.

Firstly, yes they are, cope, secondly it's not relevant whether or not one group is or isn't.


Secondly, do your kindergarten homework with the link, which I did recommend you.
Thirdly - where, and when I said anything against Cherokee or Tibetan, as they never
were a subject of disscussion, neither noone ever insist to disscuss this problem?

As I explained to you, the Rabbi doesn't support you, as saying 'once upon a time, Jews were probably patrilineal' is very far from agreeing with your entire worldview. Once upon a time many groups which are now patrilineal were matrilineal, for example a huge amount of groups in Central Africa. I doubt you would advocate for them to return to tradition.

Besides, his opinion is only his opinion.


You are insane. You are making up stuff, to justify your fury, which you show every time, when you see a word paternal or patrilinear.
The fact that you hate your own father,

https://blogs-images.forbes.com/phildemuth/files/2014/09/Sigmund-Freud-2.jpg

I love my father. You just hate your mother, all women, and Jews in particular.


really is not a reason, to impute to everyone, that 99% of people live wrongly, or that whole
history, religions, tradition, customs or just human instincts are wrong.

>implying that 99% of people believe what you believe

45% of Poles aren't R1a. Yet, they believe themselves to be Poles. Same for most if not all ethnicities (ie, a huge minority or even majority aren't from the dominant YDNA group). You pretending everyone agrees with you is fooling no one, not even yourself.

Realistically not even 1% of people would agree with you. A few more % might have a vague concept of patrilineal patrimony but none of them would marry that up to YDNA and none of them would marry that up to your biblical literacy.


Thou are not the measurement of everything. Wake up.

Ironic.

I am now putting you on my ignore list, as I find you annoying and cyclical in addition to seriously mentally unbalanced. Hopefully this does something tangible, but knowing this site, it won't do anything. I would wish you a good life and a good wife, but I don't think you should or will ever date, so I wish you a swift, merciful and painless death.

[Babak]

I agree. ADNA is more accurate.

[Leto]

I agree. ADNA is more accurate.
How come you still don't know yours. Just order a goddamn FTDNA kit now, there is still a Christmas sale going on there.

[Flub]

yep.

[Miko]

Y-DNA is literally what codofies tje biology of your masculinity.
While mitochondrias process sugars... Important too.