How much black African do these Egyptians show?

[Sikeliot]

1. http://viviansalama.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/ds107_rj.jpg



2. http://static2.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/500-7/photos/1298891056-demonstration-in-athens-in-solidarity-with-egyptian-people_576517.jpg



3. http://cdn.lightgalleries.net/4cab743d60fd8/images/EGYPTREVOLUTION02-2.jpg



4. http://araby.org/cms/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Egyptian-Girl-with-hair-clips.jpg


5. http://www.globalexchange.org/blogs/peopletopeople/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Medea-in-Egypt.jpg


6. http://static3.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1200-2/photos/1337875466-people-vote-on-second-day-of-the-egyptian-presidential-election_1234482.jpg

[portusaus]

Definitely some with most to all, the dude in the bottom picture looks quite SSA.

[1stLightHorse]

Interesting i would guess around 20% on average, the majority of egyptians don't look like this though... i was in Egypt a month ago and i noticed that Alexandrians are no different phenotypically from Cairenes.

Egyptians are quite racist in general though, more than any Western country I've visited. People told me during British rule, a lot of land owners intermarried with British colonialists, and their descendants today are whiter.

[Stormer99]

Quadroon. Probably from Nubians or slaves.

[Sikeliot]

Interesting i would guess around 20% on average, i was in Egypt a month ago and i noticed that Alexandrians are no different phenotypically from Cairenes.


Did the people look white, or did they look mixed with black African?

I think the average Egyptian looks visibly admixed, based on photos online. They do not look entirely Caucasoid.

[Stormer99]

Ancient Egyptians were probably similar to Zahi Hawas.

[1stLightHorse]

Did the people look white, or did they look mixed with black African?

I think the average Egyptian looks visibly admixed, based on photos online. They do not look entirely Caucasoid.

I would say the vast majority of people definitely looked caucasoid. Not white, but definitely caucasoid. I was paying attention to phenotypes because i was not on business, but on vacation.

Interestingly, the farmers today, who sell their produce in the streets actually look the darkest like Nubians. Egyptians definitely look african, but not negroid.
To be honest, I was shocked at the amount of blue and green eyes i saw. Blondeness is extremely rare, i never saw a single natural blonde (i saw 2 natural redheads) but i saw alot of blue and green eyes, from my own observation maybe 15%.

Edit: I should mention, almost every single male i saw had a prominent brow ridge i would say more prominent than Europeans on average.

[SardiniaAtlantis]

I would say the vast majority of people definitely looked caucasoid. Not white, but definitely caucasoid. I was paying attention to phenotypes because i was not on business, but on vacation.

Interestingly, the farmers today, who sell their produce in the streets actually look the darkest like Nubians. Egyptians definitely look african, but not negroid.
To be honest, I was shocked at the amount of blue and green eyes i saw. Blondeness is extremely rare, i never saw a single natural blonde (i saw 2 natural redheads) but i saw alot of blue and green eyes, from my own observation maybe 15%.

I've met one natural light brow/dirty blonde Egyptian girl in my life.

[Insuperable]

More than quadroons. Circa 1/3rd.

[Wadaad]

Definitely some with most to all, the dude in the bottom picture looks quite SSA.

This applies to these guys too, right?

http://www.artmajeur.com/files/angeladoliba/images/artworks/650x650/5195521_Fayum_mummy_portrait_(fragment_-_copy)..jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c5/Fayum-70.jpg

How many slaves did the Ptolemies get from SSA OP, why did the egyptians look mixed during Ptolemaic era.

[Sikeliot]

I would say the vast majority of people definitely looked caucasoid. Not white, but definitely caucasoid. I was paying attention to phenotypes because i was not on business, but on vacation.

The people in Cairo, based on the photos, do not look 100% Caucasoid IMO.

[Smeagol]

Egyptians are more Sub-Saharan influenced than in ancient times.

Mitochondrial DNA Research in the Dakhleh Oasis, Egypt
Alison M. Graver, Ryan L. Parr, Sandra Walters, Renée C. Praymak, Jennifer M. Maki and J.El Molto

Molecular genetic research is being conducted as part of the Dakhleh Oasis Project (DOP), an international and multi-disciplinary research initiative in the western desert of Egypt. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is being analyzed from both ancient human skeletal remains associated with the Roman period town of Kellis (100 to 450 AD) and contemporary inhabitants of the Dakhleh Oasis. The primary objectives of this research are to derive paleogenetic information about the inhabitants of ancient Kellis, and to develop a picture of change over time within this desert oasis. Preliminary mtDNA restriction site data and control region sequence variability suggest significant genetic differences exist between the ancient and modern oasis populations

To obtain the frequencies of these mtDNA types, amplification of the HVRI region and three RFLP markers was conducted. The authors succeeded in analysing RFLP markers in 34 samples and HVRI sequences in 18 of the samples. Both populations, ancient and contemporary, fit the north-south clinal distribution of “southern” and “northern” mtDNA types (Graver et al. 2001). However, significant differences were found between these populations. Based on an increased frequency of HpaI 3592 (+) haplotypes in the contemporary Dakhlehian population, the authors suggested that, since Roman times, gene flow from the Sub-Saharan region has affected gene frequencies of individuals from the oasis.

[1stLightHorse]

The people in Cairo, based on the photos, do not look 100% Caucasoid IMO.

I travelled to Cairo like 4 times from alexandria and i was expecting the same. I was shocked because i saw no difference. I visited al azhar islamic university, the guy i spoke with (who worked there) was blue-eyed caucasoid. I wouldn't call him white, but caucasoid. The majority looked the same.

My friends mother's is from Cairo, she looks very "white". Her father is Alexandrian and he looks 20% SSA. On the whole i don't know, but i can only speak on what i see.

[Smeagol]

Ptolemaic, and Roman era Egyptians: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fayum_mummy_portraits

[Sikeliot]

I travelled to Cairo like 4 times from alexandria and i was expecting the same. I was shocked because i saw no difference. I visited al azhar islamic university, the guy i spoke with (who worked there) was blue-eyed caucasoid. I wouldn't call him white, but caucasoid. The majority looked the same.

My friends mother's is from Cairo, she looks very "white". Her father is Alexandrian and he looks 20% SSA. On the whole i don't know, but i can only speak on what i see.


Some look fully Caucasoid but not most IMO. Those who do might have Circassian ancestry, Turkish, etc.

[Insuperable]

Egyptians are more Sub-Saharan influenced than in ancient times.

Mitochondrial DNA Research in the Dakhleh Oasis, Egypt
Alison M. Graver, Ryan L. Parr, Sandra Walters, Renée C. Praymak, Jennifer M. Maki and J.El Molto

Molecular genetic research is being conducted as part of the Dakhleh Oasis Project (DOP), an international and multi-disciplinary research initiative in the western desert of Egypt. Mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is being analyzed from both ancient human skeletal remains associated with the Roman period town of Kellis (100 to 450 AD) and contemporary inhabitants of the Dakhleh Oasis. The primary objectives of this research are to derive paleogenetic information about the inhabitants of ancient Kellis, and to develop a picture of change over time within this desert oasis. Preliminary mtDNA restriction site data and control region sequence variability suggest significant genetic differences exist between the ancient and modern oasis populations

To obtain the frequencies of these mtDNA types, amplification of the HVRI region and three RFLP markers was conducted. The authors succeeded in analysing RFLP markers in 34 samples and HVRI sequences in 18 of the samples. Both populations, ancient and contemporary, fit the north-south clinal distribution of “southern” and “northern” mtDNA types (Graver et al. 2001). However, significant differences were found between these populations. Based on an increased frequency of HpaI 3592 (+) haplotypes in the contemporary Dakhlehian population, the authors suggested that, since Roman times, gene flow from the Sub-Saharan region has affected gene frequencies of individuals from the oasis.

Not that related, but in your opinion what did the ancient Egyptians looked like?

[Smeagol]

Not that related, but in your opinion what did the ancient Egyptians looked like?

Basically South Mediterranid types with Orientalid, Cromagnid, and minor Aethiopid influences.

[Insuperable]

Basically South Mediterranid types with Orientalid, Cromagnid, and minor Aethiopid influences.

What is South Med? Is that some kind of Berberid type?

[Sikeliot]

What I do not get is why Egyptians do not have West African autosomal DNA in large amounts but instead have much more East African. Doesn't it support the idea that they have East African slaves as ancestors?

[Smeagol]

What is South Med? Is that some kind of Berberid type?

The Swarthy Mediterranids of North Africa. Berberid is a Cromagnid type.

[Insuperable]

The Swarthy Mediterranids of North Africa. Berberid is a Cromagnid type.

Berberids in reality have zero connection with Cromagnids. That south Cromagnids are either Berids or Berberdids (that eastern CM are this, western CM are this, Balkan CM are this or that) or whatever is by now a source of fiction.

[Lotuse]

Some look to me 40/45% black but keep in mind the african blood it's more dominant that's why doesn't get easy diluted like the amerindian/asian with the european ancestry.

[Rambo07]

Egyptians are classically related to Horner people but modern day Egyptians are admixed considerably today.

[Smeagol]

Egyptians are classically related to Horner people but modern day Egyptians are admixed considerably today.

Yes, mixed with negroes. Not all of them though.

[Rambo07]

Quadroon. Probably from Nubians or slaves.

Wrong! Ancient Egyptians were related to Horners, so that substratum has always existed in the Aegyptid type. That dates from the Holocene.

[Smeagol]

Wrong! Ancient Egyptians were related to Horners, so that substratum has always existed in the Aegyptid type. That dates from the Holocene.

Ancient Egyptians had some Aethiopid influences, especially in the south, but most of the true negro influences come from after Roman times.

[Rambo07]

Yes, mixed with negroes. Not all of them though.

Your dynastic Egyptian was related to Horners, with or without mixing, but they had a variety of phenotypes even by Dynastic times. Just like India, where you will get a mixture of different looks. Though in recent times there was a large inflow of Levantine and Greek influx and they look total Med types. I would say these types from 10% of the population and they dominate the Entertainment industry.

[Rambo07]

Ancient Egyptians had some Aethiopid influences, especially in the south, but most of the true negro influences come from after Roman times.

Actually its the opposite post Roman times, esp Byzantine times, there was a large influx of Byzantine Greeks esp into Alexandria, with the coming of Islam, Arabs, Levantines and Turks followed.

[Carlito's Way]

40% black

[Smeagol]

Your dynastic Egyptian was related to Horners, with or without mixing,

Related? Of course but that doesn't say much. They weren't more Aethiopid in dynastic times. The opposite actually.


Though in recent times there was a large inflow of Levantine and Greek influx and they look total Med types.

No there wasn't. Nobody from the Levant or Greece really affected the Egyptian population in a significant way. Only Sub-Saharan slaves did.

[Rambo07]

But Egyptians still retain that "African " touch IMO.

[Smeagol]

Actually its the opposite post Roman times, esp Byzantine times, there was a large influx of Byzantine Greeks esp into Alexandria, with the coming of Islam, Arabs, Levantines and Turks followed.

Nope, sorry, that's just an afrocentric joke. Some foreigners did come to live in big cities in northern Egypt, but didn't really affect the population as a whole. On the other hand, there were hundreds of thousands of Sub-Saharan slaves imported overall from medieval times all the way to the 20th century.

[Gaston]

Did the people look white, or did they look mixed with black African?

I think the average Egyptian looks visibly admixed, based on photos online. They do not look entirely Caucasoid.

You should be careful now that we know Europeans are admixed too. Native Egyptians and North Africans in general will end up having as much West Eurasian ancestry as Northern Europeans and Caucasus people and only slightly less than Southern Europeans.

[Stormer99]

Wrong! Ancient Egyptians were related to Horners, so that substratum has always existed in the Aegyptid type. That dates from the Holocene.

The ancient Egyptians looked more like Zahi Hawas than these people depicted. I've seen drawings and depicions of Egyptians from the Roman era and they resembled his type.

[Rambo07]

Nope, sorry, that's just an afrocentric joke. Some foreigners did come to live in big cities in northern Egypt, but didn't really affect the population as a whole. On the other hand, there were hundreds of thousands of Sub-Saharan slaves imported overall from medieval times all the way to the 20th century.

I am not afrocentrist nor am I eurocentrist either , I am giving the balanced view. I would know I grew up with Coptic Christians . Egyptians hardly have any West African/ SSA dna, so the Afrocentrist view falls. But the vast majority of their lineages are analgous with those found within the North East Africa and with a substantial addition J1 which signifies recent Arab admix for the most part.
Modern Egypt is an intermediate between the Horn and West Asia. If there were thousands of sub saharan slaves it would show up in the DNA, esp mtDNA but it shows up in very small amounts. Even in MENA countries which have had a sub saharan population like Zanj in Iraq, Abds in Mauritiania and KSA, or even the Siddhis or Gujarat they always formed their own population isolate.

In any case our timings are different but the result is the same lol.

[Rambo07]

The ancient Egyptians looked more like Zahi Hawas than these people depicted. I've seen drawings and depicions of Egyptians from the Roman era and they resembled his type.

Zahi Hawas is Arabid/East Med , he does not look Aegyptid at all lol. Wtf are you talking about lol.

[Wadaad]

The ancient Egyptians looked more like Zahi Hawas than these people depicted. I've seen drawings and depicions of Egyptians from the Roman era and they resembled his type.

Zahi is just a generic robust type, found all over Egypt...

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/110418-zahi-hawass-1130a.jpg

Gamal Abdel Nasser was of the same robust phenotype, clearly Egyptian yet African

http://www.nndb.com/people/953/000024881/608nasser.jpg

The look extends all the way down the Nile to Khartoum:

http://almogaz.com/sites/default/files/styles/article-image/public/images/12/16/sadiq-al-mahdi.jpg?itok=kEduEjVW

Could you find me a depiction from ancient Egypt that has Zahi's look?

[Smeagol]

and with a substantial addition J1 which signifies recent Arab admix for the most part.

No, it's mostly neolithic, and in fact, more common in Sudan, than Egypt.


Modern Egypt is an intermediate between the Horn and West Asia. If there were thousands of sub saharan slaves it would show up in the DNA, esp mtDNA but it shows up in very small amounts.

The slaves were mostly from East Africa, with a few being West African.

[Wadaad]

I am not afrocentrist nor am I eurocentrist either , I am giving the balanced view. I would know I grew up with Coptic Christians . Egyptians hardly have any West African/ SSA dna, so the Afrocentrist view falls. But the vast majority of their lineages are analgous with those found within the North East Africa and with a substantial addition J1 which signifies recent Arab admix for the most part.
Modern Egypt is an intermediate between the Horn and West Asia. If there were thousands of sub saharan slaves it would show up in the DNA, esp mtDNA but it shows up in very small amounts. Even in MENA countries which have had a sub saharan population like Zanj in Iraq, Abds in Mauritiania and KSA, or even the Siddhis or Gujarat they always formed their own population isolate.

In any case our timings are different but the result is the same lol.

/Thread.

You are dealing with armchair anthropologists (smeagol, objectiverealist, noraxen) who never went anywhere, with strong opinions on how Egyptians and other MENA should look, and why they look the way they do, and also that they know better on what their ancient relatives looked.

[Stormer99]

Zahi is just a generic robust type, found all over Egypt...

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/110418-zahi-hawass-1130a.jpg

Gamal Abdel Nasser was of the same robust phenotype, clearly Egyptian yet African

http://www.nndb.com/people/953/000024881/608nasser.jpg

The look extends all the way down the Nile to Khartoum:

http://almogaz.com/sites/default/files/styles/article-image/public/images/12/16/sadiq-al-mahdi.jpg?itok=kEduEjVW

Could you find me a depiction from ancient Egypt that has Zahi's look?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Fayum-59.jpg

[Rambo07]

The Fayum portraits show a variety of faces, though some do look like Aegtypids , a good portion of them were from the mixed Greek and Egyptian upper class, the Hellenized elite so to speak.

[Smeagol]

The Fayum portraits show a variety of faces, though some do look like Aegtypids , a good portion of them were from the mixed Greek and Egyptian upper class, the Hellenized elite so to speak.


The dental morphology of the Roman-period Faiyum mummies was also compared with that of earlier Egyptian populations, and was found to be "much more closely akin" to that of ancient Egyptians than to Greeks or other European populations. ^ Irish JD (2006). "Who were the ancient Egyptians? Dental affinities among Neolithic through postdynastic peoples.". Am J Phys Anthropol 129 (4): 529-43

Aegyptid was just a term Lundman used. According to him it was a South Mediterranid type nearly identical to the Saharids of Northwest Africa. The Ancient Egyptians also had significant neolithic Orientalid, and Armenid influences, along with native Cromagnid, and Aethiopid, strongest in the south. They were far from free of negrid admixture, but they didn't have more than in modern times.

[Stormer99]

The Fayum portraits show a variety of faces, though some do look like Aegtypids , a good portion of them were from the mixed Greek and Egyptian upper class, the Hellenized elite so to speak.
Upper class people represented the ancient Egyptians more than the lower classes. A few may have been mixed with Greek but the lower classes were mixed with more SSA.

[Rambo07]

Yeah I read that report earlier but in any case it just goes to show how admixed Egyptians are even at this point in Greco Roman Egypt.

[Stormer99]

My gripe is how Aframs try to claim ancient Egypt (when they are descended from West Africans anyways, far from Egypt) and then deny it to the people truly descended from them like the Zahi Hawas types of the world.

[Wadaad]

Upper class people represented the ancient Egyptians more than the lower classes. A few may have been mixed with Greek but the lower classes were mixed with more SSA.

You have no clue what you're talking about...Eurocentric babble that didnt apply in AE society.

[Stormer99]

You have no clue what you're talking about...Eurocentric babble that didnt apply in AE society.

How is it being Eurocentric? I'm saying the upper classes were of ancient Egyptian stock and not mixed much.

[Wadaad]

How is it being Eurocentric? I'm saying the upper classes were of ancient Egyptian stock and not mixed much.

You just use european sociological experiences and transplant it on Ancient Egypt.

What proof do you have that the upper classes did not mix with SSA? what proof do you have that lower classes did mix with SSA?

Is slavery the only way there could have been admixture from SSA? Then what happened during the Nubian 25th dynasty when Nubians ruled Egypt upto Libya? Did they then mix with upper class AE, and the greeks and other meds with the lower classes? Or how do you explain Queen Tiye? Or better yet, the Sphinx?

http://historyrevised.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/sphinx-Copy.jpg

[Smeagol]

About the Sphinx, It was originally meant to represent the Pharaoh Khafre.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nige-d-smith/nelea/images/khafre.jpg

But the original head was severely eroded and had to be recarved to the face we see today.

[Wadaad]

About the Sphinx, It was originally meant to represent the Pharaoh Khafre.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nige-d-smith/nelea/images/khafre.jpg

But the original head was severely eroded and had to be recarved to the face we see today.


When they recarved the face, why did they not make it match Khafre (who has absolutley no alveolar prognathism)?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3111/2295876327_6338d91c91.jpg

[Rambo07]

Well some say it is Khafre other archaelogists say NO ,some say its Khufu or whatever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acxKhQoeIAQ

Metrically it was found it did not match Khafre though.

[Smeagol]

Well some say it is Khafre other archaelogists say NO ,some say its Khufu or whatever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acxKhQoeIAQ

Metrically it was found it did not match Khafre though.

Khufu, and Khafre either way were related, but most archaeologists believe it was originally supposed to represent Khafre, and:

''the original Sphinx has been heavily repaired and restored, both in ancient and modern times, and the pharaonic head is a recarving of an earlier one.'' Schoch, 2005

''the present face and head on the sphinx is probably not the original as it seems to have been received several times''
DeRosa, 2004

[Wadaad]

Khufu, and Khafre either way were related, but most archaeologists believe it was originally supposed to represent Khafre, and:

''the original Sphinx has been heavily repaired and restored, both in ancient and modern times, and the pharaonic head is a recarving of an earlier one.'' Schoch, 2005

''the present face and head on the sphinx is probably not the original as it seems to have been received several times''
DeRosa, 2004

It was most likely a Lion's head at first...in any case, you would be dishonest if you said you dont think the sphynx's head is a bust of a heavily SSA influenced person

[Hadouken]

maybe 20%

a few said i can fit in egypt

i see it clearly now . I am more black though ....i think i am like 70% ssa

i think i fit better in mali or something

[Wadaad]

maybe 20%

a few said i can fit in egypt

i see it clearly now . I am more black though ....i think i am like 70% ssa

i think i fit better in mali or something

actually I see you passing in Vallhalla even with your 70% ssa

[Rambo07]

Khufu, and Khafre either way were related, but most archaeologists believe it was originally supposed to represent Khafre, and:

''the original Sphinx has been heavily repaired and restored, both in ancient and modern times, and the pharaonic head is a recarving of an earlier one.'' Schoch, 2005

''the present face and head on the sphinx is probably not the original as it seems to have been received several times''
DeRosa, 2004

Your using nearly 10 year old dated sources which are not relevant at all. The Smithsonian institute compile this information based of a 2012 study.

[Sikeliot]

I occasionally see a rare northern Egyptian who looks like Sicilians, which I suspect is those of Greek descent.

But I think Egyptians in general look intermediate between Ethiopians and Berbers, with some Arabid influence and SSA.

[1stLightHorse]

Sphinx powah

[axel.aleman]

Quadroon Range

[Morena]

Quadroon Range

+1

[Pro.crasti.nation]

The Coptic people I've met, look very different from these people.

Are Copts and regular Egyptians the same?

One of my friends is a Coptic guy. He keeps on saying that I look very Coptic. I wonder if I look Egyptian?