Nordish Riffian?

[Loki]

http://i.imgur.com/cd4v79g.jpg

Please classify.

[Portukalos]

She is Kabyle. Atlanto Med + Berberid influence.

[Wadaad]

hurrem sultanoid...

[Loki]

She is Kabyle. Atlanto Med + Berberid influence.

She is Riffian. No way Atlanto-Med. Way too Nordish for that.

[RandoBloom]

Looks Albanian due to nose :D

[Portukalos]

She is Riffian. No way Atlanto-Med. Way too Nordish for that.

She is Kabyle , not Rifian. As for her looks , apart from heir colourings , her phenotype is mostly Atlantid but clearly with Berberid influence (cheekbones etc) which give her a pseudo Slavic or Albanian (?) look.

[Loki]

She is Kabyle , not Rifian. As for her looks , apart from heir colourings , her phenotype is mostly Atlantid but clearly with Berberid influence (cheekbones etc) which give her a pseudo Slavic look.

You're just saying that due to your own ancestry.

[Axios]

She is Miss Kabylee 2010 but his father is Riffian, xD probablly with Vandal ancestry look:
Part of Riffians and Kabylians are of Vandal Origins

http://i.imgur.com/vi4xg5T.png

[Longbowman]

I think if she dyed her hair you wouldn't think she was Nordic at all.

[Loki]

She is Miss Kabylee 2010 but his father is Riffian, xD probablly with Vandal ancestry look:
Part of Riffians and Kabylians are of Vandal Origins

http://i.imgur.com/vi4xg5T.png

Yes. The Vandals "disappeared" from history, but this is not true. They intermixed with North Africans.

[Wadaad]

The'l Vadanm Do you know what "Al Riff" means?

[Axios]

The'l Vadanm Do you know what "Al Riff" means?

No, i'm half Spanish so.. i'm not informed a lot about Riffian culture

[Loki]

No, i'm half Spanish so.. i'm not informed a lot about Riffian culture

Your Spanish ancestry probably made you darker.

[Axios]

Your Spanish ancestry probably made you darker.

I don't know, my father is half Catalan half Dutch

[Wadaad]

No, i'm half Spanish so.. i'm not informed a lot about Riffian culture

It means countryside/pastures/rural area.

The Vandals did not settle the farms...They were warriors who taxed the locals (just like the Arabs would later) that where the orthodox Christian Moors (who were persecuted because they were not Arian worshippers) farmed and the Vandals also did not mix with the non-Arian christians (whether in Africa or Italy).

[Loki]

It means countryside/pastures/rural area.

The Vandals did not settle the farms...They were warriors who taxed the locals (just like the Arabs would later) that where the orthodox Christian Moors (who were persecuted because they were not Arian worshippers) farmed and the Vandals also did not mix with the non-Arian christians (whether in Africa or Italy).

Who did the Vandals mix with then? They just disappeared?

[Axios]

It means countryside/pastures/rural area.

The Vandals did not settle the farms...They were warriors who taxed the locals (just like the Arabs would later) that where the orthodox Christian Moors (who were persecuted because they were not Arian worshippers) farmed and the Vandals also did not mix with the non-Arian christians (whether in Africa or Italy).

Vandals left descendants in North Africa ... and a lot of descendants

[Portukalos]

The'l Vadanm Do you know what "Al Riff" means?

It means countryside , or refers to the coastal line in general.

[Wadaad]

Who did the Vandals mix with then? They just disappeared?

Pretty much...the Byzantines defeated them in the 530s. From wikipedia:


North Africa (which is north Tunisia and eastern Algeria in the period of the Vandals) became a Roman province again, from which the Vandals were expelled. Many Vandals went to back Saldae (which is called today Béjaïa north Algeria) where they integrated themselves with the Berbers. Many others were put into imperial service or fled to the two Gothic kingdoms (Ostrogothic Kingdom and Visigothic kingdom), some Vandal women married Byzantine soldiers settled in north Algeria and Tunisia. The best Vandal warriors were formed into five cavalry regiments, known as Vandali Iustiniani, and stationed on the Persian frontier. Some entered the private service of Belisarius.[21] Gelimer himself was honourably treated and received large estates in Galatia where he lived to be an old man. He was also offered the rank of a patrician but had to refuse it because he was not willing to change his Arian faith".[17] In the words of historian Roger Collins: "The remaining Vandals were then shipped back to Constantinople to be absorbed into the imperial army. As a distinct ethnic unit they disappeared".[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandalic_War

About a century later, the besieged Vandals of Spain would beg the upstart Muslims to be mercenaries for their Iberian internecine wars.

[Damião de Góis]

Who did the Vandals mix with then? They just disappeared?

The Vandals were east germanic. How much R1a there is in North Africa?

[Longbowman]

Who did the Vandals mix with then? They just disappeared?

Pretty much. R1b is 0.8% in Morocco. R1a is negligible. I guess they were never a huge population, but rather only a handful of warrior-elites.

[Wadaad]

Vandals left descendants in North Africa ... and a lot of descendants

Nope...ANDALUSIS (Arabic for Vandals) left alot of descendants in North Africa post-reconquista. But we both know Andalusians were not Vandals, but Moriscos, Jews, even Muslim Slavs (who were slaves) had Slavic emirates in Iberia like the Slavicemirate of Denia, at one time that got conquered by the Spaniards, and they got expelled.

Maybe she is a descendant of these Slavs?

[Portukalos]

Pretty much. R1b is 0.8% in Morocco. R1a is negligible. I guess they were never a huge population, but rather only a handful of warrior-elites.

It's not in Morocco the Vandals settled. It was in Algeria. Their first capital was in fact Bejaïa (Saldae) in modernday Kabylia , where R1B reach 15% (but I doubt it is Vandalic). Thereafter they made Carthage their capital.

[Axios]

Nope...ANDALUSIS (Arabic for Vandals) left alot of descendants in North Africa post-reconquista. But we both know Andalusians were not Vandals, but Moriscos, Jews, etc.

tell this to kabylian people...

[Longbowman]

It's not in Morocco the Vandals settled. It was in Algeria. Their first capital was in fact Bejaïa (Saldae) in modernday Kabylia , where R1B reach 15% (but I doubt it is Vandalic). Thereafter they made Carthage their capital.

That's probably thanks to the French and Spanish though. The point is R is rare in north Africa.

[Damião de Góis]

It's not in Morocco the Vandals settled. It was in Algeria. Their first capital was in fact Bejaïa (Saldae) in modernday Kabylia , where R1B reach 15% (but I doubt it is Vandalic). Thereafter they made Carthage their capital.

Which subclade?

[Portukalos]

Which subclade?

R1b1a2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people)

[Damião de Góis]

R1b1a2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people)

It's not european then.

[Portukalos]

It's not european then.

R1b1a2 also known as R-M269 is the most common haplogroup in Iberia and South Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)#R1b1a2_.28R-M269.29

[Damião de Góis]

R1b1a2 also known as R-M269 is the most common haplogroup in Iberia and South Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)#R1b1a2_.28R-M269.29

The most common in Iberia is my own, R1b1b2a1a2, or R1b-S116... which is different from R1b1a2.

[Smeagol]

Berberid with depigmented Mediterranid (North African Nordid) influence.

[Sidi Atlas]

A long time ago, I posted this girl, Myriam Abel, and Agrippa (grand master flex of classifying) classified her as Nordoid, and possibly a Vandal remnant (I reserve doubts about the latter part).

Myrian Abel (both parents Algerian)


http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll280/Aweznas/Anthro%20NA/myriam35ux_zps3f767828.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll280/Aweznas/Anthro%20NA/clash-entre-myriam-abel-cecile-de-menibus_zps5a06d1e5.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll280/Aweznas/Anthro%20NA/hkh.jpg


Nope...ANDALUSIS (Arabic for Vandals) left alot of descendants in North Africa post-reconquista. But we both know Andalusians were not Vandals, but Moriscos, Jews, even Muslim Slavs (who were slaves) had Slavic emirates in Iberia like the Slavicemirate of Denia, at one time that got conquered by the Spaniards, and they got expelled.

Maybe she is a descendant of these Slavs?
The effects of Andalusi refugees (of European descent) is exaggerated. Genetic studies show little to no influence (meaning that most of the Muslims that left Iberia to North Africa were just Muslim North African settlers returning home).

[Longbowman]

A long time ago, I posted this girl, Myriam Abdel, and Agrippa (grand master flex of classifying) classified her as Nordoid, and possibly a Vandal remnant (I reserve doubts about the latter part).

Myrian Abdel (both parents Algerian)


http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll280/Aweznas/Anthro%20NA/myriam35ux_zps3f767828.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll280/Aweznas/Anthro%20NA/clash-entre-myriam-abel-cecile-de-menibus_zps5a06d1e5.jpg

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll280/Aweznas/Anthro%20NA/hkh.jpg


The effects of Andalusi refugees (of European descent) is exaggerated. Genetic studies show little to no influence (meaning that most of the Muslims that left Iberia to North Africa were just Muslims North African settlers returning home)/.

Or perhaps she's just of French or Spanish descent.

[Smeagol]

Or perhaps she's just of French or Spanish descent.

She is Algerian.

[MarkyMark]

More like Noric.

[Longbowman]

She is Algerian.

Pure Algerian, going back ~400 years? I doubt it, there's some French and Spanish in there.

[Smeagol]

Pure Algerian, going back ~400 years? I doubt it, there's some French and Spanish in there.

Just because she's Nordoid? Lol.

[Sidi Atlas]

Pure Algerian, going back ~400 years? I doubt it, there's some French and Spanish in there.

She's of Kabyle Berber descent. Kabylie region is a quite hostile mountain region. Not a place for a French or a Spaniard to wander.

http://imalbum.aufeminin.com/album/D20050129/80075_BJW57VK4R3OQ4LR632HVOJK7ZQSJGJ_kabylie_neige _05_H220038_L.jpg

http://www.kabyle.com/archives/IMG/jpg/colline_oubliee-2.jpg

[Longbowman]

Just because she's Nordoid? Lol.

Yep.

If she were of Subsaharan extraction, we wouldn't be having this conversation ^^

[Smeagol]

Yep.

If she were of Subsaharan extraction, we wouldn't be having this conversation ^^

Sorry, but Nordoid influences are a minor element in the Berber populations.

[Longbowman]

Sorry, but Nordoid influences are a minor element in the Berber populations.

No more than you'd expect from a population that used to be ruled by Vandals, once had a thriving European Slave Market, and benefited from Roman trade and Phonoecian colonies throughout its history.

This conversation is Danishberber's wet dream though ^^

[Übermensch]

exotic nordid.

[Furnace]

She would look pretty much like your average med without that dyed hair.

[Sidi Atlas]

No more than you'd expect from a population that used to be ruled by Vandals, once had a thriving European Slave Market, and benefited from Roman trade and Phonoecian colonies throughout its history.
The central base of the Vandals was Carthage, present day Tunisia. Tunisians seem to be much swarthier than Kabyles, so I don't see the correlation of fairer features with Vandal presence. I read as well that Vandals, where utterly destroyed by the Byzantines, the ones that weren't killed were sold as slaves through their empire.

[Longbowman]

The central base of the Vandals was Carthage, present day Tunisia. Tunisians seem to be much swarthier than Kabyles, so I don't see the correlation of fairer features with Vandal presence. I read as well that Vandals, where utterly destroyed by the Byzantines, the ones that weren't killed were sold as slaves through their empire.

A) it is doubtful they left no lasting presence. B) Carthage is no more, so as you say, the ones that set up camp there would have suffered far greater, thus leaving the Kabyles' area with more Visigoth presence. C) there's still the matter of the slave trade, regular trade, and colonies.

[Damião de Góis]

She would look pretty much like your average med without that dyed hair.

Not from here, i can't think of anyone similar.

[Furnace]

Not from here, i can't think of anyone similar.

Yes, she is more east med than med.

[Sidi Atlas]

A) it is doubtful they left no lasting presence. B) Carthage is no more, so as you say, the ones that set up camp there would have suffered far greater, thus leaving the Kabyles' area with more Visigoth presence. C) there's still the matter of the slave trade, regular trade, and colonies.
A) what kind of lasting presence if we're talking about negligible proportions in the total population?
B) I think you mean Vandal presence? I haven't read anything about Vandals setting up camps in Kabylie ... maybe you have more info.
C) peasants in a poor mountain region don't implicate in slave trade and colonies. It's towns and cities that are most affected, ironically people tend to be darker there.

There is nothing that proves that lighter hair and eyes are foreign (or a result of recent admixture) in North Africa. Even Ancient Egyptians noted the fairer features among certain Berbers (Meshwesh).


Not from here, i can't think of anyone similar.
Indeed she looks average coastal Maghrebi with dyed hair.

[Longbowman]

A) what kind of lasting presence if we're talking about negligible proportions in the total population?
B) I think you mean Vandal presence? I haven't read anything about Vandals setting up camps in Kabylie ... maybe you have more info.
C) peasant in a poor mountain region don't implicate in slave trade and colonies. It's in towns and cities that are most affected, ironically people tend to be darker there.

There is nothing that proves that lighter hair and eyes are foreign (or a result of recent admixture) in North Africa. Even Egyptians noted the fairer features among certain ancient Berbers (Meshwesh).

Considering millions of European slaves were sold in Morocco, and considering the Vandal input, I'm going to assume the rare instances of individuals with light complexions are of distant foreign origin.

What kind of lasting presence? Any. Even if a few hundred survived to propagate their genes, their genes would survive. The Vandals travelled through all North Africa, and had an impact on all populations west of Libya. But my main issue is with the more recent Spanish colonisation and slave trade. The fact that coastal denizens are darker is a coincidence. They're not native traits. The Egyptians only commented on lighter skin colour as compared to the Egyptians of the time.

[Sidi Atlas]

Considering millions of European slaves were sold in Morocco, and considering the Vandal input, I'm going to assume the rare instances of individuals with light complexions are of distant foreign origin.

What kind of lasting presence? Any. Even if a few hundred survived to propagate their genes, their genes would survive. The Vandals travelled through all North Africa, and had an impact on all populations west of Libya. But my main issue is with the more recent Spanish colonisation and slave trade. The fact that coastal denizens are darker is a coincidence. They're not native traits. The Egyptians only commented on lighter skin colour as compared to the Egyptians of the time.
I think you're mixing up a lot of things up. The slave trade is another subject (numbers which you claim always lead back to one controversial and doubtful source, "Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800", Robert Davis (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/mar/11/highereducation.books), but even here it doesn't speak about millions).

The girl I posted is Kabyle. So let us remain in the Kabyle region, which history is quite different than that of Morocco.

[Longbowman]

I think you're mixing up a lot of things up. The slave trade is another subject (numbers which you claim always lead back to one controversial and doubtful source, "Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast, and Italy, 1500-1800", Robert Davis (http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/mar/11/highereducation.books)).

The girl I posted is Kabyle. So let us remain in the Kabyle region, which history is quite different than that of Morocco.

No, I think you're being very close-minded about this. You seem to think there'd be no slaves held by the Berbers, which is untrue; even if it were the Berbers bordered the Arabs and there was certainly a deal of population exchange. Genetically there is only a modicum of difference between Berbers and Arabs in Western North Africa, anyway - the 'Arabs' are just Arabised Berbers.

Your source supports my point - that plenty - over a million - white people ended up in the Barbary Coast (which is the English word for the Moroccan Coast, and comes from the word Berber).

This girl's DNA would surely reveal significant European ancestry. She doesn't even look like a Kabyle with dyed hair.

[Sidi Atlas]

No, I think you're being very close-minded about this. You seem to think there'd be no slaves held by the Berbers, which is untrue; even if it were the Berbers bordered the Arabs and there was certainly a deal of population exchange. Genetically there is only a modicum of difference between Berbers and Arabs in Western North Africa, anyway - the 'Arabs' are just Arabised Berbers.

Your source supports my point - that plenty - over a million - white people ended up in the Barbary Coast (which is the English word for the Moroccan Coast, and comes from the word Berber).
The source states a million to 1.25 million, all over the Barbary Coast which includes besides Morocco; other Maghrebi countries Algeria, Tunisia and Libya as well. The source also states that they were not all kept as slaves, but it was more lucrative to sell them back to their families. But anyway this book isn't scientific work and holds little value. I find genetic studies much more interesting in this respect.

And the point of "Arabs" in North Africa, well I have always stated that they are Arabic speaking Berbers (with different degrees of admixtures).


This girl's DNA would surely reveal significant European ancestry. She doesn't even look like a Kabyle with dyed hair.
My reply to Alexdelarge was a response to the girl in the OP. The girl I posted, is not average but to say she's largely of recent European descent I wouldn't agree with. Catherine Zeta Jones is not average Welsh but I wouldn't claim she must have Indian or other recent non European ancestry.

[Longbowman]

The source states a million to 1.25 million, all over the Barbary Coast which includes besides Morocco; other Maghrebi countries Algeria, Tunisia and Libya as well. The source also states that they were not all kept as slaves, but it was more lucrative to sell them back to their families. But anyway this book isn't scientific work and holds little value. I find genetic studies much more interesting in this respect.

And the point of "Arabs" in North Africa, well I have always stated that they are Arabic speaking Berbers (with different degrees of admixtures).


My reply to Alexdelarge was a response to the girl in the OP. The girl I posted, is not average but to say she's largely of recent European descent I wouldn't agree with. Catherine Zeta Jones is not average Welsh but I wouldn't claim she must have Indian or other recent non European ancestry.

Recent European? No, though it wouldn't surprise me. Distant European? Yes.

Whilst some slaves were redeemed, the majority never saw home again. But it's not relevant, because only a small amount would be needed to have stayed behind to cause the occasional blonde berber.

[Sidi Atlas]

Recent European? No, though it wouldn't surprise me. Distant European? Yes.

Whilst some slaves were redeemed, the majority never saw home again. But it's not relevant, because only a small amount would be needed to have stayed behind to cause the occasional blonde berber.
There is not scientific base to your claim but we seem to go into circles, so I'll leave it at that.

[Longbowman]

There is not scientific base to your claim but we seem to go into circles, so I'll leave it at that.

Nor to yours.

[Smeagol]

Most of the slaves came from south of the sahara.

[Longbowman]

Most of the slaves came from south of the sahara.

Absolutely, hence the rather larger SSA north African component. Still, 1.25m+ White slaves.

[Sidi Atlas]

Nor to yours.
Since you made the claim it is you should prove it. But you can't as there is no evidence that blue eyes or blonde hear in North Africa is due to (recent) European admixture.

I already provided you with sources of Ancient Egyptians on the Berber Meshwesh who were depicted with fair features (not only lighter than Egyptians but lighter than the Syrians on the same painting). In Ancient Greece, the Libyan God, Antaeus , was depicted with lighter features as well.

My opinion is that lighter hair and eyes could be a remnant of the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic inhabitants of North Africa, the Mechta-Afalou (Cromagnoid type) (http://books.google.be/books?id=8HKDtlPuM2oC&pg=PA388&lpg=PA388&dq=afalou+cromagnoid&source=bl&ots=LIa-RehHMM&sig=S2dbYfvhisNuVi_Yoeeorh3wemo&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=Fz-7Uq2CHeqBywP4-IKwAQ&ved=0CEsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=afalou%20cromagnoid&f=false) and further enhanced by the introductions of European mtdna H (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00493.x/full), 13.000 to 15.000 years ago.

[Longbowman]

Since you made the claim it is you should prove it. But you can't as there is no evidence that blue eyes or blonde hear in North Africa is due to (recent) European admixture.

I already provided you with sources of Ancient Egyptians on the Berber Meshwesh who were depicted with fair features (not only lighter than Egyptians but lighter than the Syrians on the same painting). In Ancient Greece, the Libyan God, Antaeus , was depicted with lighter features as well.

My opinion is that lighter hair and eyes could be a remnant of the late Paleolithic and Mesolithic inhabitants of North Africa, the Mechta-Afalou (Cromagnoid type) (http://books.google.be/books?id=8HKDtlPuM2oC&pg=PA388&lpg=PA388&dq=afalou+cromagnoid&source=bl&ots=LIa-RehHMM&sig=S2dbYfvhisNuVi_Yoeeorh3wemo&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=Fz-7Uq2CHeqBywP4-IKwAQ&ved=0CEsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=afalou%20cromagnoid&f=false) and further enhanced by the introductions of European mtdna H (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2008.00493.x/full), 13.000 to 15.000 years ago.

Lighter but not blonde. Blonde hair evolved in Bulgaria or elsewhere in Thrace, thus any presence in north Africa is ultimately European anyway. Occam's razor is, there's been European admixture, blonde hair is [nearly completely] restricted to Europeans, ergo the blondism is due to European admixture. You should be the one to disprove that, preferably via genetics.

[Shah-Jehan]

Slaves captured from the western Mediterranean in Europe by the Barbary pirates were either taken to Istanbul, the capital of the Ottomans to be sold as slaves to pashas, beys and other high ranking officials or sold to high raking officials in Ottoman regional centres like Tunis, Algiers etc. They did not mix with Berbers and did not become Berber, most of the Barbary pirates were Turks and Janissaries anyway...

[Joso]

Arabid+North African CM. Possibly nordid influence too.