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Weedman
12-24-2013, 07:25 PM
"Loyalists" documentary based on the 1999 book by Peter Taylor (I have a copy)
this was made around the time of the "peace process", so some figures in this documentary, like Gusty Spence and Johnny White, have since either passed on or are no longer in politics.

http://youtu.be/-prWQCby1yk

http://youtu.be/dk9vqu_WHfM

http://youtu.be/qkjH9ZNWVfA


and this last one is just a short clip of Billy Wright (R.I.P), who is forever one of the most Loyal Sons of Ulster, along with great men such as Johnny "Mad Dog" Adair, IMO.....the clip also has Mark Fulton too (R.I.P.)

Wright was set-up by the British government (and perhaps the UVF politicians too?) and was murdered by the INLA because he simply did not agree with the terms of the "peace process" and felt it did not have the best interests of the Northern Irish people in mind.

http://youtu.be/pG6jtrAYVIA

Weedman
12-29-2013, 04:17 PM
The Mid-Ulster U.V.F.


http://youtu.be/RZKX7Zx4Zno

Celxon
12-30-2013, 07:43 AM
Drunk, you seem like a good guy to me, so I have to ask you something. Do you admire these guys? No offense, but I don't care for them or their blood brothers in the Irish Republican Army. I especially disdain Boston Irish who support terrorism. The same holds true for Protestant Unionists who try to rip off Southerners from the United States. Not to start an argument, but I don't like the IRA *or* the UVF. My respect goes to the people, from both regions, who changed things in a peaceful way. They're the true heroes.

Weedman
12-30-2013, 08:52 AM
no I dont care for any terrorists who murder innocent people regardless of the reasons

But i do like watching stuff like this just to learn about it and the atmosphere of Northern Ireland in general.

I also watch stuff about the IRA and their history too
As an American/outsider I have the luxury of sort of being interested in all sides of the divide in Ireland and can be interested in or have sympathy for all views as well as see the hypocrisy of both views too.

Celxon
12-30-2013, 09:22 AM
no I dont care for any terrorists who murder innocent people regardless of the reasons

But i do like watching stuff like this just to learn about it and the atmosphere of Northern Ireland in general.

I also watch stuff about the IRA and their history too
As an American/outsider I have the luxury of sort of being interested in all sides of the divide in Ireland and can be interested in or have sympathy for all views as well as see the hypocrisy of both views too.

@Drunk: They really are interesting. I like to listen to Irish rebel songs on You Tube and then read what people write about them. I'm probably on some kind of FBI or NSA watch list. The craziest thing was a video from one of the loyalists. It showed a painting of Lee and Jackson under a Confederate battle flag and an Ulster red hand (or something like that). It rubbed me the wrong way. They were both Confederates whose forebears fought the British for independence. They *certainly* weren't unionists!:D Get your politics out of our heritage and history, Ulsterman You Tube guy. If some Appalachian guys met some Irish guys in a bar in Dublin or Harlan, they'd whip out their....fiddles and play a session. I doubt you're going to recruit any folks who throw Saint Patrick's Day parades each year and whose daughters take Irish dance classes. That's a big thing in Georgia, and they have Irish gypsies down there too.

Prisoner Of Ice
12-30-2013, 09:24 AM
Good thing someone fought for right of UK to open borders of ireland to mass immigration.

Weedman
01-06-2014, 12:34 AM
@Drunk: They really are interesting. I like to listen to Irish rebel songs on You Tube and then read what people write about them. I'm probably on some kind of FBI or NSA watch list. The craziest thing was a video from one of the loyalists. It showed a painting of Lee and Jackson under a Confederate battle flag and an Ulster red hand (or something like that). It rubbed me the wrong way. They were both Confederates whose forebears fought the British for independence. They *certainly* weren't unionists!:D Get your politics out of our heritage and history, Ulsterman You Tube guy. If some Appalachian guys met some Irish guys in a bar in Dublin or Harlan, they'd whip out their....fiddles and play a session. I doubt you're going to recruit any folks who throw Saint Patrick's Day parades each year and whose daughters take Irish dance classes. That's a big thing in Georgia, and they have Irish gypsies down there too.

yeah , the history really gets mixed in with modern day politics unfortunately. I have seen many stuff where people from Appalachia and even music stars like Ricky Skaggs have done musical albums with Folks musicians from either Ireland or Scotland and there are so many books and stuff now about the Scotch-Irish legacy in America and how it came from Ulster, by authors from both sides of the Atlantic. There are murals of Andrew Jackson in modern day Northern Ireland too, as well as his place of birth being a museum there now. ( but he was instilled with a hatred for the British by his Ulster-Protestant mother)
It's a mix really. Like I said the modern politics gets mixed in with history and its not always accurate when people try to make claims from history to use as political propaganda today.

I can tell you for sure on the one hand there are many U.S.Southerners proud of their Scotch-Irish heritage but most could care less about the politics of Ireland or Ulster in reality. and again, as you say, many of those same people overlook the actual Irish Catholic settled areas of the American South, like southern Georgia or New Orleans. Many people form those places are mixed with both, Ulster-Protestant and Irish Catholic ancestry.

I just know back then, in the American South it didnt make a bit of difference at all to the settlers here and when Irish Catholics came to the South like in the famine era for example they were generally welcomed and integrated by the wider population who were in part made up originally from Protestants from Ulster.

People in America back then didnt care about any of that and it's stupid to assume that just because someone is interested in their Scotch-Irish heritage historically that they are also interested in the politics of Ireland itself.

you're right, most early Scotch-Irish settlers really could care less about it and most people in general in the South never cared about any politics going on in Ireland at any point in time.
It's 2 different countries with 2 different histories.

It's sad how some people corrupt it and try to make claims based in the past to further their political agenda now. No one in America of Scotch-Irish descent really has any claim to modern day Northern Ireland. culturally yes, historically yes, but politically? no, of course not.

They left that place nearly 300 years ago and havent cared much about since then, except maybe in a cultural concept.

I've also seen Oliver Cromwell's mural in pics of Northern Ireland, but in reality Cromwell hated and was very vile to most Presbyterians in Ireland/Ulster and many Ulster-Scots had to fight against him. Puritans hated anyone who wasnt a fellow Puritan be they Catholic, Anglican or some other Protestant dissenter.

So that is also a part of history thats been politically corrupted and falsely claimed by Unionists in Northern Ireland too, not to mention most of the members of the United Irishmen from Ulster were in fact Scots-Protestants and they fought for an Ireland independent of Great Britain in colonial times.

Incal
01-06-2014, 12:55 AM
Sickening...

Celxon
01-06-2014, 02:51 AM
Drunk, that was a terrific post. I might add that some pre-1800s Native Irish people settled in the Appalachians too. I think that this group (Native Irish) was the fourth or fifth largest European group during parts of the colonial era, although they were smaller than the English, Ulster Scottish, and Germans. I don't think that these people just vanished into thin air, and I don't think that they all formed unions with non-White people (former slaves, Native Americans).

Graham
01-06-2014, 02:57 AM
All that stuff from both sides, has been a plague or a virus on our own culture. Hate it. Don't want some shitty Orange band marching through my street again. Or to see countless FTP or NIRA & IRA slogans on walls.

Graham
01-06-2014, 03:02 AM
and btw my neighbour is friends with Adair. There seems to be plenty that want his head.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/police-hold-sixth-man-over-dissident-plot-to-kill-loyalist-johnny-adair-29717598.html

Longbowman
01-06-2014, 03:09 AM
I say we unite Ireland. By reconquering the Republic. And Australia. And Canada. And the other Dominions. And the rest of the Commonwealth. Even Rwanda and Mozambique that never belonged to us but are still in the commonwealth. And Egypt and Sudan and our other former colonies that aren't in the commonwealth. And the thirteen colonies. And Vermont and Washington and Oregon and Florida and southern Mississippi and Maine and Hawaii. And the rest of the states. And Calais. And the bits of France we lost by 1558 (like Aquitania and Brittany). And the rest of France. And French Belgium and Switzerland. And regular Belgium and Switzerland. And Germany. And Europe. And the rest of the world.

Then, finally, there will be a global pax. A global Pax Britannica.

God save the Queen.

Weedman
01-06-2014, 03:10 AM
Drunk, that was a terrific post. I might add that some pre-1800s Native Irish people settled in the Appalachians too. I think that this group (Native Irish) was the fourth or fifth largest European group during parts of the colonial era, although they were smaller than the English, Ulster Scottish, and Germans. I don't think that these people just vanished into thin air, and I don't think that they all formed unions with non-White people (former slaves, Native Americans).


yeah there are definitely families with surnames that seem more historically, native Irish in the Appalachian areas and in the South in general. I guess its hard to tell exactly where they came from though without genealogical info. Because in colonial Ulster, though it wasnt the norm, it also wasn't unheard of for Irish Catholics and Protestant settlers to intermarry for various reasons. and like you say, the earlier colonial Irish Catholics in the South would have eventually intermarried with the other settlers just like all of the other European settlers did, at the time.

It's interesting you have native Irish roots in America going back to colonial times. Its rare.
Since the majority if native Irish settlers came in the early-mid 19th centruy

But there were also a small amount of Jewish settlers in the South from the colonial era too, mostly from England and places with Sephardic Jews.

Its funny how the OLDEST, continuous Catholic population in America (USA) is in the South, which is known for its evangelical Protestantism.

Weedman
01-06-2014, 04:06 AM
and btw my neighbour is friends with Adair. There seems to be plenty that want his head.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/police-hold-sixth-man-over-dissident-plot-to-kill-loyalist-johnny-adair-29717598.html

your neighbor is friends with Mad Dog ADAIR!!!!!!??????? DAMN! that's crazy!

and yeah, I'm actually surprised he's still breathing too.

Celxon
01-06-2014, 04:57 AM
yeah there are definitely families with surnames that seem more historically, native Irish in the Appalachian areas and in the South in general. I guess its hard to tell exactly where they came from though without genealogical info. Because in colonial Ulster, though it wasnt the norm, it also wasn't unheard of for Irish Catholics and Protestant settlers to intermarry for various reasons. and like you say, the earlier colonial Irish Catholics in the South would have eventually intermarried with the other settlers just like all of the other European settlers did, at the time.

It's interesting you have native Irish roots in America going back to colonial times. Its rare.
Since the majority if native Irish settlers came in the early-mid 19th centruy

But there were also a small amount of Jewish settlers in the South from the colonial era too, mostly from England and places with Sephardic Jews.

Its funny how the OLDEST, continuous Catholic population in America (USA) is in the South, which is known for its evangelical Protestantism.

It has some of the oldest Jewish communities in the country too. As for shared religion, both Catholics and Mainliner Protestants converted to Evangelical forms of Christianity. Of course, there were more of the latter. As for last names, some of them were changed for a variety of reasons. You likely came across this phenomena if you ever looked at an old census or old record. For example, some prefixes were dropped, and more than a few surnames' spellings were butchered by people. Not all of my Native Irish forebears came here during the colonial era. One arrived here in the 1800s, and he represented my last blood tie to Europe.

Why did Catholics and Mainliner Protestants gravitate to Evangelicalism? It was due to a lack of churches, as well as clergy, in isolated regions of colonial/later America. Circuit riders played a big role, as did huge events like the Great Awakening. A lot of descendants of Scots-Irish Presbyterians converted to the forms of Protestantism which are prevalent in their descendants' areas now.

Prisoner Of Ice
01-06-2014, 04:59 AM
All that stuff from both sides, has been a plague or a virus on our own culture. Hate it. Don't want some shitty Orange band marching through my street again. Or to see countless FTP or NIRA & IRA slogans on walls.

Especially when it's all paid and not grass roots at all.

Prisoner Of Ice
01-06-2014, 05:02 AM
I say we unite Ireland. By reconquering the Republic. And Australia. And Canada. And the other Dominions. And the rest of the Commonwealth. Even Rwanda and Mozambique that never belonged to us but are still in the commonwealth. And Egypt and Sudan and our other former colonies that aren't in the commonwealth. And the thirteen colonies. And Vermont and Washington and Oregon and Florida and southern Mississippi and Maine and Hawaii. And the rest of the states. And Calais. And the bits of France we lost by 1558 (like Aquitania and Brittany). And the rest of France. And French Belgium and Switzerland. And regular Belgium and Switzerland. And Germany. And Europe. And the rest of the world.

Then, finally, there will be a global pax. A global Pax Britannica.

God save the Queen.

I say we conquer england, kill every single man except in one remote corner, and set up the women on rape farms to create mullattos to sell to Ivory Coast farmers to make up for what England did to Ireland.

Longbowman
01-06-2014, 05:03 AM
I say we conquer england, kill every single man except in one remote corner, and set up the women on rape farms to create mullattos to sell to Ivory Coast farmers to make up for what England did to Ireland.

I say leave the past in the past.

Either that or face our nuclear arsenal, Paddies. And we'll stop bailing you out when your silly monopoly-money currency goes tits-up again.

As for our women, you're welcome to them :rolleyes:

Celxon
01-06-2014, 06:05 AM
set up the women on rape farms to create mullattos

That's very grotesque, but there really was a rape room in a house in Indiana in the antebellum era. A male slave had constant sex with a long stream of female slaves. I think that it was owned by a man with the surname of Sanders. I hope and pray that he was no relation to the Colonel!

Longbowman
01-06-2014, 06:14 AM
That's very grotesque, but there really was a rape room in a house in Indiana in the antebellum era. A male slave had constant sex with a long stream of female slaves. I think that it was owned by a man with the surname of Sanders. I hope and pray that he was no relation to the Colonel!

...because if he were, you'd have to boycott KFC?

Celxon
01-06-2014, 07:52 AM
...because if he were, you'd have to boycott KFC?

Boycott it? I'd picket while wearing a chicken suit.

Prisoner Of Ice
01-06-2014, 08:22 AM
That's very grotesque, but there really was a rape room in a house in Indiana in the antebellum era. A male slave had constant sex with a long stream of female slaves. I think that it was owned by a man with the surname of Sanders. I hope and pray that he was no relation to the Colonel!

I'm not making it up, that's where the first slaves came from in the indies.

Celxon
01-06-2014, 08:24 AM
I'm not making it up, that's where the first slaves came from in the indies.

I know. I just wanted to add some useless information to the thread.

Xenomorph
01-09-2014, 08:31 PM
Why did Catholics and Mainliner Protestants gravitate to Evangelicalism? It was due to a lack of churches, as well as clergy, in isolated regions of colonial/later America. Circuit riders played a big role, as did huge events like the Great Awakening. A lot of descendants of Scots-Irish Presbyterians converted to the forms of Protestantism which are prevalent in their descendants' areas now.

I don't know if it was a lack of clergy, so much as a lack of educated clergy. Presbyterian clergy have to be well-educated before they are formalized, while Evangelical preachers largely do not. That being said, I think there is still a noticeable Presbyterian presence in Appalachia and other Scots-Irish regions.

Loki
01-09-2014, 08:34 PM
All that stuff from both sides, has been a plague or a virus on our own culture. Hate it. Don't want some shitty Orange band marching through my street again. Or to see countless FTP or NIRA & IRA slogans on walls.

Live and let live. But the Northerners are there to stay, and they have their own unique identity. I have a high respect for Northern Irelanders. As you can also deduct, perhaps. ;)

Graham
01-09-2014, 08:44 PM
Live and let live. But the Northerners are there to stay, and they have their own unique identity. I have a high respect for Northern Irelanders. As you can also deduct, perhaps. ;)

My workmate has the queen on his phone background. Somethings no right with them Loyalists. haha

Longbowman
01-09-2014, 08:48 PM
My workmate has the queen on his phone background. Somethings no right with them Loyalists. haha

What's wrong with the Queen? Besides other people have stupid pictures of the celebrity or even porn star du jour on their phones. The Queen is better.

Something's not right with the IRA if you ask me.

Loki
01-09-2014, 11:25 PM
My workmate has the queen on his phone background. Somethings no right with them Loyalists. haha

Do you remember that whacky American member Loyalist? Banned long ago :D

Graham
01-09-2014, 11:27 PM
Do you remember that whacky American member Loyalist? Banned long ago :D

Canadian, actually, hence Loyalist. :P He was a supporter of the old Empire. There were two members called Loyalist, I remember them.

Loki
01-09-2014, 11:31 PM
Canadian, actually, hence Loyalist. :P He was a supporter of the old Empire. There were two members called Loyalist, I remember them.

Canadian yes, by apologies. I don't even think he's banned anymore. He just disappeared.

Leo Iscariot
01-09-2014, 11:56 PM
@Drunk: They really are interesting. I like to listen to Irish rebel songs on You Tube and then read what people write about them. I'm probably on some kind of FBI or NSA watch list. The craziest thing was a video from one of the loyalists. It showed a painting of Lee and Jackson under a Confederate battle flag and an Ulster red hand (or something like that). It rubbed me the wrong way. They were both Confederates whose forebears fought the British for independence. They *certainly* weren't unionists!:D Get your politics out of our heritage and history, Ulsterman You Tube guy. If some Appalachian guys met some Irish guys in a bar in Dublin or Harlan, they'd whip out their....fiddles and play a session. I doubt you're going to recruit any folks who throw Saint Patrick's Day parades each year and whose daughters take Irish dance classes. That's a big thing in Georgia, and they have Irish gypsies down there too.

Believe it or not, I actually found and saved this picture the other week cos I thought it looked cool:
43110

I assumed it was in a Separatist zone though.

Prisoner Of Ice
01-10-2014, 12:21 AM
Canadian, actually, hence Loyalist. :P He was a supporter of the old Empire. There were two members called Loyalist, I remember them.

Yes, all our loyalists moved to canada after the revolution. Considering how passive aggressive canadians are, it might be a good thing.

Weedman
01-10-2014, 01:06 AM
Believe it or not, I actually found and saved this picture the other week cos I thought it looked cool:
43110

I assumed it was in a Separatist zone though.

Loyalist Mural of American President Andrew Jackson (Ulster-Scot)...........Shankill road, East Belfast (loyalist heartland), Northern Ireland/Ulster
43114

the cottage where his father lived in Carrickfergus, co. Antrim is a museum also. The Ulster-American Folk Park in Northern Ireland is cool, too.

I see this, and the mural of the Confederate generals too, and although they're highly politicized in context, I do think they're pretty cool from a historical and cultural perspective
especially coming from the American South and being of Scotch-Irish ancestry.

Of course in reality though, Andrew Jackson's mother, an Ulster-Scot immigrant to the U.S., instilled in him a great hatred for the British (AKA the English) as one of the reasons many Ulster-Scots/Presbyterians left the north of Ireland for America to begin with was because of the sanctions placed on them by the ruling Anglican/Anglo-Irish ruling class . Most, at the time, did not especially see themselves as part of a pan-British identity yet.

Later, their descendants in America would fight the British Empire while their descendants back in Ulster would fight to remain in it.

Prisoner Of Ice
01-10-2014, 01:09 AM
Guy in the video is alpignid prole to the extreme (at least what dr funky calls an alpignid anyway).

Celxon
01-10-2014, 01:23 AM
Believe it or not, I actually found and saved this picture the other week cos I thought it looked cool:
43110

I assumed it was in a Separatist zone though.

Do they know that Lee was of mostly English descent and that his father fought the British? Do they know that Jackson also had Irish and Welsh forebears? That was a cool picture, though. I doubt that the three generals would want to be co-opted by Unionists.

Weedman
01-10-2014, 01:37 AM
Do they know that Lee was of mostly English descent and that his father fought the British? Do they know that Jackson also had Irish and Welsh forebears? That was a cool picture, though. I doubt that the three generals would want to be co-opted by Unionists.

there were ,obviously, also Irish Catholic regiments who fought for the Confederacy as well. The most famous were the Louisiana Tigers and where I live there was a Tennessee regiment called the Sons of Eire made up of Irish Catholic immigrants. Another famous one was the Jasper Greens.

These murals are mostly seen as political/cultural symbols and the general, broadly shared heritage/origins of Ulster Protestants with the colonial American South.

The same historical points can be made of the fact that most of the early Republican movements in Ireland were lead by Anglo-Irish Protestants as well as by some Ulster-Protestants. But when Nationalist/Catholics refer to Protestant settlers in Ireland/Ulster these facts have no baring on the overall general Nationalist culture.

I am sure most Ulster-Protestants are aware of the actual historical reality of some of this, but again, these are largely seen as just basic overall, generalized cultural symbols but with a certain amount of modern Loyalist political ideology attached to it as well.

It would be like saying how Americans were proud to fight the British or something, when in reality, there was a certain amount of Americans who were also Loyal to Great Britain in the Revolutionary War as well, and who willingly fought against their neighbors.

There are some Americans today who actually have colonial ancestors that fought on both sides during the American Revolution.

I think the biggest basic reasons there are murals of Confederate Generals and of people like Andrew Jackson in Ulster is because there are certain general, basic, shared historical/cultural aspects between Ulster and America, especially the South, but also because these people are Soldiers and Generals who had to fight for their political beliefs.
I think, politically, that is the message the murals convey, as many Ulster Protestants today see themselves as in a constant fight for their own political beliefs.

(IMO)Probably that, more than anything else, is what the murals are actually about.........politically speaking anyway.

Celxon
01-10-2014, 01:40 AM
Loyalist Mural of American President Andrew Jackson (Ulster-Scot)...........Shankill road, East Belfast (loyalist heartland), Northern Ireland/Ulster
43114

the cottage where his father lived in Carrickfergus, co. Antrim is a museum also. The Ulster-American Folk Park in Northern Ireland is cool, too.

I see this, and the mural of the Confederate generals too, and although they're highly politicized in context, I do think they're pretty cool from a historical and cultural perspective
especially coming from the American South and being of Scotch-Irish ancestry.

Of course in reality though, Andrew Jackson's mother, an Ulster-Scot immigrant to the U.S., instilled in him a great hatred for the British (AKA the English) as one of the reasons many Ulster-Scots/Presbyterians left the north of Ireland for America to begin with was because of the sanctions placed on them by the ruling Anglican/Anglo-Irish ruling class . Most, at the time, did not especially see themselves as part of a pan-British identity yet.

Later, their descendants in America would fight the British Empire while their descendants back in Ulster would fight to remain in it.

You beat me to it while I went to the bathroom. Jackson *was* Ulster Scottish, but he and his troops messed up the Redcoats "real bad" at the Battle of New Orleans, so he wasn't the best choice for folks loyal to the British. Next, the Republicans will put Audie Murphy and Ronald Reagan on *their* billboards. Never mind the fact that they're mixed too.

Leo Iscariot
01-10-2014, 01:46 AM
Loyalist Mural of American President Andrew Jackson (Ulster-Scot)...........Shankill road, East Belfast (loyalist heartland), Northern Ireland/Ulster
43114

the cottage where his father lived in Carrickfergus, co. Antrim is a museum also. The Ulster-American Folk Park in Northern Ireland is cool, too.

I see this, and the mural of the Confederate generals too, and although they're highly politicized in context, I do think they're pretty cool from a historical and cultural perspective
especially coming from the American South and being of Scotch-Irish ancestry.

Of course in reality though, Andrew Jackson's mother, an Ulster-Scot immigrant to the U.S., instilled in him a great hatred for the British (AKA the English) as one of the reasons many Ulster-Scots/Presbyterians left the north of Ireland for America to begin with was because of the sanctions placed on them by the ruling Anglican/Anglo-Irish ruling class . Most, at the time, did not especially see themselves as part of a pan-British identity yet.

Later, their descendants in America would fight the British Empire while their descendants back in Ulster would fight to remain in it.


Do they know that Lee was of mostly English descent and that his father fought the British? Do they know that Jackson also had Irish and Welsh forebears? That was a cool picture, though. I doubt that the three generals would want to be co-opted by Unionists.

I got curious and looked it up, apparently Loyalists frequently use Confederate imagery:

At a parade celebrating the Ulster Covenant (Also with the Bonnie Blue flag):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovDOr-EzeEY

Description in photo:
http://www.blueandgrey.zoomshare.com/files/confederate_belfast.jpg

In a building used by the Orange Order:
http://ansionnachfionn.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/the-british-unionist-minority-in-ireland-displays-the-banners-of-racist-regimes-from-across-history-including-british-rhodesia-apartheid-south-africa-and-the-confederate-states.jpg?w=700


Tbh I do find this a bit ironic, though if it's coming from a "Representing the diaspora" context, then I kind of understand.

Celxon
01-10-2014, 01:51 AM
I read about some group from the South that went to Ulster for some kind of event. An Ulster band played a folk song to welcome them. It turned out to be "Marching Through Georgia", a Union song about Sherman's campaign (and war crimes). Don't these guys realize that Grant, as well as thousands of Union forces, were Ulster Scottish?

LightHouse89
01-10-2014, 02:04 AM
there were ,obviously, also Irish Catholic regiments who fought for the Confederacy as well. The most famous were the Louisiana Tigers and where I live there was a Tennessee regiment called the Sons of Eire made up of Irish Catholic immigrants. Another famous one was the Jasper Greens.

These murals are mostly seen as political/cultural symbols and the general, broadly shared heritage/origins of Ulster Protestants with the colonial American South.

The same historical points can be made of the fact that most of the early Republican movements in Ireland were lead by Anglo-Irish Protestants as well as by some Ulster-Protestants. But when Nationalist/Catholics refer to Protestant settlers in Ireland/Ulster these facts have no baring on the overall general Nationalist culture.

I am sure most Ulster-Protestants are aware of the actual historical reality of some of this, but again, these are largely seen as just basic overall, generalized cultural symbols but with a certain amount of modern Loyalist political ideology attached to it as well.

It would be like saying how Americans were proud to fight the British or something, when in reality, there were a certain amount of Americans who were also Loyal to Great Britain in the Revolutionary War as well, and who willingly fought against their neighbors.

There are some Americans today who actually have colonial ancestors that fought on both sides during the American Revolution.

I think the biggest basic reasons there are murals of Confederate Generals and of people like Andrew Jackson in Ulster is because there are certain general, basic, shared historical/cultural aspects between Ulster and America, especially the South, but also because these people are Soldiers and Generals who had to fight for their political beliefs.
I think, politically, that is the message the murals convey, as many Ulster Protestants today see themselves as in a constant fight for their own political beliefs.

(IMO)Probably that, more than anything else, is what the murals are actually about.........politically speaking anyway.

Which Anglo-Irish do your refer to? The Norman old English descendants or the plastic paddies in the North? Yes there were a number of catholic English who lived in Ireland and were pro Irish nationalism. The Northern 'Irish' are not actually Irish but just British colonials in Ireland. I would not classify them as the Anglo-Irish as the real Anglo-Irish came from places like Waterdsford, Wexford and Dublin. They have Anglo-Saxon surnames.

Leo Iscariot
01-10-2014, 02:05 AM
I read about some group from the South that went to Ulster for some kind of event. An Ulster band played a folk song to welcome them. It turned out to be "Marching Through Georgia", a Union song about Sherman's campaign (and war crimes). Don't these guys realize that Grant, as well as thousands of Union forces, were Ulster Scottish?

I couldn't tell you. I only really know of the Separatist vs Loyalist feud, not much about it though.

LightHouse89
01-10-2014, 02:06 AM
I wouldnt compare the British and Southern Confederates as being the same. Infact Britain had more in common with the North East than the South. If anything the Confederate flag is more similar to the Scottish flag, both actually are the Crosses of Saint Andrews.

LightHouse89
01-10-2014, 02:07 AM
I couldn't tell you. I only really know of the Separatist vs Loyalist feud, not much about it though.

its basically real Irish people vs Plastic Paddys :D

Weedman
01-10-2014, 02:16 AM
I got curious and looked it up, apparently Loyalists frequently use Confederate imagery:

At a parade celebrating the Ulster Covenant (Also with the Bonnie Blue flag):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovDOr-EzeEY

Description in photo:
http://www.blueandgrey.zoomshare.com/files/confederate_belfast.jpg

In a building used by the Orange Order:
http://ansionnachfionn.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/the-british-unionist-minority-in-ireland-displays-the-banners-of-racist-regimes-from-across-history-including-british-rhodesia-apartheid-south-africa-and-the-confederate-states.jpg?w=700


Tbh I do find this a bit ironic, though if it's coming from a "Representing the diaspora" context, then I kind of understand.

actually I think it is more of a "representing the diaspora" thing. At least that's how I see it. Personally, from a purely cultural or historical, non-political context, I like it.

but obviously there is a certain amount of modern political atmosphere surrounding it as well. It's a matter of perspective I guess.
It's sort of like saying how in America, to some people the Confederate Flag is a racist symbol.

But in reality, there were Native Americans and even SOME Free people of Color, as well as Jews who willingly fought for the Confederacy.

some people use the flag for their own, political agenda and represent it as a modern racist symbol while some just look at it from a purely historical or cultural perspective.

btw, the Bonnie Blue Flag is always my favorite!

But I'm curious as to why they have the flags of South Africa and Rhodesia but not of Australia or New Zealand?

Weedman
01-10-2014, 02:27 AM
its basically real Irish people vs Plastic Paddys :D

dont you have some Plastic Paddy ancestry, Norm?...............just curious, I dont mean anything by it.

Weedman
01-10-2014, 02:29 AM
I wouldnt compare the British and Southern Confederates as being the same. Infact Britain had more in common with the North East than the South. If anything the Confederate flag is more similar to the Scottish flag, both actually are the Crosses of Saint Andrews.

This is all true.

and at the same time, thats not actually where the Confederate Battle Flag came from even though many Scotch-Irish enthusiasts like to claim it does.
It wasnt influenced by the Scottish flag at all, in reality, or by the Scotch-Irish heritage in the American South for that matter.

Celxon
01-10-2014, 02:31 AM
But I'm curious as to why they have the flags of South Africa and Rhodesia but not of Australia or New Zealand?

That's a good question. Maybe more Ulster Scottish people moved to those countries.

Celxon
01-10-2014, 02:33 AM
This is all true.

and at the same time, thats not actually where the Confederate Battle Flag came from even though many Scotch-Irish enthusiasts like to claim it does.
It wasnt influenced by the Scottish flag at all, in reality, or by the Scotch-Irish heritage in the American South for that matter.

I thought that the battle flag was based on the Scottish flag. What are its true origins?

Weedman
01-10-2014, 02:37 AM
Which Anglo-Irish do your refer to? The Norman old English descendants or the plastic paddies in the North? Yes there were a number of catholic English who lived in Ireland and were pro Irish nationalism. The Northern 'Irish' are not actually Irish but just British colonials in Ireland. I would not classify them as the Anglo-Irish as the real Anglo-Irish came from places like Waterdsford, Wexford and Dublin. They have Anglo-Saxon surnames.

The Theobold Wolfe-Tone type of Anglo-Irish (Anglican/semi-Protestant) and the Henry Joy McCracken type of Ulster-Presbyterians(dissenters)....... as far as class structure and ethnicity go, most Ulster-Protestant settlers were not seen as Anglo-Irish.

Many of the United Irishmen leaders in the north were Ulster-Presbyterians and in the south, many of the leaders were Anglican (Anglo-Irish) and Catholic Irish.

The Anglo-Irish (Anglican) in Dublin, Wexford, Waterford, etc.. were not "real Irish" either, but they were Irish Republicans politically.

LightHouse89
01-10-2014, 02:42 AM
dont you have some Plastic Paddy ancestry, Norm?...............just curious, I dont mean anything by it.

yes ofcourse I do and also the real Irish heritage as well. I think Northern 'Irish' people suffer from an identity crisis or something as one minute they are British and the next they are Irish and more Irish than people who live outside of Ireland who dare ever to make a claim of their roots. I just laugh at how defensive and angry they get when you call them plastic as it really upsets them. Their tactics do not work on me because they know damn well they are just as plastic as me hahaha.

LightHouse89
01-10-2014, 02:43 AM
The Theobold Wolfe-Tone type of Anglo-Irish (Anglican/semi-Protestant) and the Henry Joy McCracken type of Ulster-Presbyterians(dissenters)....... as far as class structure and ethnicity go, most Ulster-Protestant settlers were not seen as Anglo-Irish.

Many of the United Irishmen leaders in the north were Ulster-Presbyterians and in the south, many of the leaders were Anglican (Anglo-Irish) and Catholic Irish.

Take my surname De Poer= Powers and is a Anglo-Norman surname. Technically I am Anglo-Irish or the bearer of that surname was. It is a common surname in Wexford and Watersford. My great grandfather came from Wexford.

Celxon
01-10-2014, 02:48 AM
Take my surname De Poer= Powers and is a Anglo-Norman surname. Technically I am Anglo-Irish or the bearer of that surname was. It is a common surname in Wexford and Watersford. My great grandfather came from Wexford.

The right term is "Old English", which doesn't fit the Fitzgeralds. The Anglo-Irish arrived after the Normans.

LightHouse89
01-10-2014, 02:51 AM
The right term is "Old English", which doesn't fit the Fitzgeralds. The Anglo-Irish arrived after the Normans.

durng the 1500s they came well before Cromwell and that era. The Anglo-Irish term basically means Anglo-Saxon peoples living in Ireland. Many Irish people have that ancestry.

Celxon
01-10-2014, 02:58 AM
durng the 1500s they came well before Cromwell and that era. The Anglo-Irish term basically means Anglo-Saxon peoples living in Ireland. Many Irish people have that ancestry.

They didn't come with Strongbow? If not, forget what I said. I referred to Normans such as the Barrys and the Butlers, as well as the Fitzgeralds. The latter were Cambro-Normans, not really Anglo-Normans.

Leo Iscariot
01-10-2014, 03:08 AM
actually I think it is more of a "representing the diaspora" thing. At least that's how I see it. Personally, from a purely cultural or historical, non-political context, I like it.

but obviously there is a certain amount of modern political atmosphere surrounding it as well. It's a matter of perspective I guess.
It's sort of like saying how in America, to some people the Confederate Flag is a racist symbol.

But in reality, there were Native Americans and even SOME Free people of Color, as well as Jews who willingly fought for the Confederacy.

some people use the flag for their own, political agenda and represent it as a modern racist symbol while some just look at it from a purely historical or cultural perspective.

btw, the Bonnie Blue Flag is always my favorite!

But I'm curious as to why they have the flags of South Africa and Rhodesia but not of Australia or New Zealand?
It very well could be.

I don't know, I was wondering myself.


I thought that the battle flag was based on the Scottish flag. What are its true origins?

As did I, we were told in school that it was based on St. Andrew's Cross.

But after jumping on Wikipedia, I found this:


William Porcher Miles, designer of the Confederate Battle Flag never claimed it to be a St. Andrew's cross design, but rather a heraldic saltire without religious symbolism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saltire#Flags

RussiaPrussia
01-10-2014, 03:12 AM
i support loyalists in the US if any are left over

Weedman
01-10-2014, 04:14 AM
I thought that the battle flag was based on the Scottish flag. What are its true origins?

here ya go, Celxon-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

even on the neo-Confederate websites I have seen they also claim the same origins as wikipedia states..
Also, the legitimate historical articles on the web say about the same thing about it.

First it had a Cross similar in design to a St.George Cross as on the Flag of England but someone at the Southern flag convention thought it had too much of a religious overtone, so they changed it to an heraldic "X" because of what an "X" blazon means/signifies in heraldry and not because of the flag of Scotland or anything like that.

it says the heraldic saltire cross represented "strength and progress"..........but I've also read that it means "protection"

Celxon
01-10-2014, 04:38 AM
here ya go, Celxon-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

even on the neo-Confederate websites I have seen they also claim the same origins as wikipedia states..
Also, the legitimate historical articles on the web say about the same thing about it.

First it had a Cross similar in design to a St.George Cross as on the Flag of England but someone at the Southern flag convention thought it had too much of a religious overtone, so they changed it to an heraldic "X" because of what an "X" blazon means/signifies in heraldry and not because of the flag of Scotland or anything like that.

Thanks for the clarification. If not for it, I would continue to buy and spout the old misinformation. I can see how the myth started, though. Speaking of flags, I *think* that Alabama's state flag has a Saint Patrick's cross on it.

Weedman
01-10-2014, 04:46 AM
Thanks for the clarification. If not for it, I would continue to buy and spout the old misinformation. I can see how the myth started, though. Speaking of flags, I *think* that Alabama's state flag has a Saint Patrick's cross on it.

I've read the Alabama red saltire cross flag has roots in the Spanish Flag (cross) of Burgundy that was flown over southern Alabama until the 1800's.

southern Alabama was originally part of Spanish-controlled west Florida until the early 1800's.


in 1810, west Florida, which included the Gulf coasts of Alabama and Georgia, became independent from Spanish control and established the short-lived Republic of West Florida.

The Bonnie Blue Flag ultimately has it's origins as the flag of the Republic of West Florida.

Since then it was known as just a general flag/symbol of independence/liberty in the Deep South which is why it was used by early Confederate troops/regiments.

Celxon
01-10-2014, 04:55 AM
I've read the Alabama red saltire cross flag has roots in the Spanish Flag (cross) of Burgundy that was flown over southern Alabama until the 1800's.

southern Alabama was originally part of Spanish-controlled west Florida until the early 1800's.

Guess what? It's really a "crimson" (no kidding) Saint Andrew's cross. The red color and the Union Jack threw me. I think that the UK flag has a Saint Patrick's cross on it.

Weedman
01-10-2014, 05:31 AM
Guess what? It's really a "crimson" .

Roll Tide!!!!!


lol

Celxon
01-10-2014, 05:38 AM
Roll Tide!!!!!


lol

That was the actual word that they used in the official document too. How prescient that was!

Weedman
01-10-2014, 05:45 AM
They didn't come with Strongbow? If not, forget what I said. I referred to Normans such as the Barrys and the Butlers, as well as the Fitzgeralds. The latter were Cambro-Normans, not really Anglo-Normans.
regardless of where the Norman families in Ireland came from, I think they were eventually called Hiberno-Norman..................The Anglo-Irish were later settlers, mainly around The Pale area.

Celxon
01-10-2014, 08:25 AM
regardless of where the Norman families in Ireland came from, I think they were eventually called Hiberno-Norman..................The Anglo-Irish were later settlers, mainly around The Pale area.

That's true. They were called by different names. It's a bit weird that the Norman Irish were called Old English decades after they intermingled and mated with the Gaelic Irish. The Anglo-Irish were closer to the English.