Christians Targeted in Christmas Day Bombings

[VAARON]

At least (http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2013/December/Christians-Targeted-in-Christmas-Day-Bombings/) 37 people died in Baghdad on Wednesday when militants targeted Christians in two separate bomb attacks, officials said.

In one attack, a car bomb went off near a church during Christmas Mass in the capital's southern Dora neighborhood, killing at least 26 people and wounding more than 38, a police official said.

http://www.atour.com/media/files/forums/20111005AIM015320.jpg

Earlier, a bomb ripped through an outdoor market in the nearby Christian section of Athorien, killing 11 people and wounding 21, the official added.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the attacks, but Iraq's dwindling Christian community, which is estimated to number about 400,000 to 600,000 people, has often been targeted by al-Qaida and other insurgents who see Christians as unbelievers.

Wednesday's bombings came amid a massive military operation in Iraq's western desert as authorities try to hunt down insurgents who have stepped up attacks across Iraq in the past months, sending violence to levels not seen since 2008.

The Christmas Day attacks brought the total number of people killed so far this month in Iraq to 441.



According to United Nations estimates, more than 8,000 people have been killed since the start of the year.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

It was probably better if Saddam had been left in power instead of having a second Iraq war also known as "Bush War 2: Victory of the Oil Bandits." Everything was so chill... I mean, sure Saddam and his sons were ghey and all but sometimes you have to choose between one type of gheyness over another gheyness and the proper choice was to allow Saddam's gheyness to rule cuz the current gheyness is really too ghey.

[Mason8]

Christians once again have become victims of Islamic fanatics

[Windischer]

It was probably better if Saddam had been left in power instead of having a second Iraq war also known as "Bush War 2: Victory of the Oil Bandits." Everything was so chill... I mean, sure Saddam and his sons were ghey and all but sometimes you have to choose between one type of gheyness over another gheyness and the proper choice was to allow Saddam's gheyness to rule cuz the current gheyness is really too ghey.

dont spread this idocy, iraq was in constant state of war during saddam.
now its mostly arab parts of iraq which are aflame, kurdish north is calm and developing and christians arent bombed there. hell even the yazidi arent.

kurds are american allies and arabs succumbed to sectarianism.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

dont spread this idocy, iraq was in constant state of war during saddam.
now its mostly arab parts of iraq which are aflame, kurdish north is calm and developing and christians arent bombed there. hell even the yazidi arent.

kurds are american allies and arabs succumbed to sectarianism.

Yeah, you're right... the death toll under Saddam's reign was far worse than now... no, wait.... it wasn't...

Saddam kept all these people in line. Was he a hep cat? No, but that doesn't mean it's better now.

[Windischer]

Yeah, you're right... the death toll under Saddam's reign was far worse than now... no, wait.... it wasn't...

Saddam kept all these people in line. Was he a hep cat? No, but that doesn't mean it's better now.

all saddam did was causing wars and ordering genocides. the death toll was much higher.

[VAARON]

i think someone should check it , but dont blame america for smart muslims who kill other smart muslims . anyhow muslims should LEAVE christians alone and respect them

[Rojava]

See what religion has caused?

[RandoBloom]

See what religion has caused?

Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, they sure are religious :D

[Rojava]

Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, they sure are religious :D

Mohammed himself is responsible for the suffering of many people. He plagued my ancestral lands with an evil religion known as Islam and is the role model for millions of extremists in the world.

Fuck Hitler and fuck Stalin.

Mao and Pol Pot were heroes, they killed for the greater of humanity. All Capitalists, and far-right extreme wankers, should be executed publicly after being paraded half naked on donkeys. Their cause was just.

What's funny, is that you believe in some retard in the sky that controls your daily life and instead of thanking farmers for putting the food on your table you thank that retard in the sky. You have a good fairytale imagination.

[RandoBloom]

Mohammed himself is responsible for the suffering of many people. He plagued my ancestral lands with an evil religion known as Islam and is the role model for millions of extremists in the world.

Fuck Hitler and fuck Stalin.

Mao and Pol Pot were heroes, they killed for the greater of humanity. All Capitalists, and far-right extreme wankers, should be executed publicly after being paraded half naked on donkeys. Their cause was just.

What's funny, is that you believe in some retard in the sky that controls your daily life and instead of thanking farmers for putting the food on your table you thank that retard in the sky. You have a good fairytale imagination.

Hahaha first blaming religion for murder and pretending to be sad about it, and then having an orgasm when talking about 50 000 000 people Mao killed XD
Comic

[Rojava]

Hahaha first blaming religion for murder and pretending to be sad about it, and then having an orgasm when talking about 50 000 000 people Mao killed XD
Comic

Ignorant Capitalist is ignorant. You are blind and clearly could not comprehend my comment. You'll see when you die, you won't go up to heaven or hell. Your bones will rot away over the years and nothing more. That is everyone's destiny.

1. I didn't blame religion for murder, but millions have died over religion which is a fake anyway.
2. I had an orgasm over your Islamic whore that you call a mother you dick hole.

I wonder how you will react to my last comment, remember swearing is haram :)

[Petros Houhoulis]

Hitler, Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, they sure are religious :D

Hitler was Catholic. Mao and Stalin worshipped themselves. Pol Pots' religious beliefs are unknown.

[RandoBloom]

Ignorant Capitalist is ignorant. You are blind and clearly could not comprehend my comment. You'll see when you die, you won't go up to heaven or hell. Your bones will rot away over the years and nothing more. That is everyone's destiny.

1. I didn't blame religion for murder, but millions have died over religion which is a fake anyway.
2. I had an orgasm over your Islamic whore that you call a mother you dick hole.

I wonder how you will react to my last comment, remember swearing is haram :)

1. You did, and hundreds of milions died over ideologies.
2. By telling you that you should check on your mom often, lest she chokes on dick

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Mohammed himself is responsible for the suffering of many people. He plagued my ancestral lands with an evil religion known as Islam and is the role model for millions of extremists in the world.

Fuck Hitler and fuck Stalin.

Mao and Pol Pot were heroes, they killed for the greater of humanity. All Capitalists, and far-right extreme wankers, should be executed publicly after being paraded half naked on donkeys. Their cause was just.

What's funny, is that you believe in some retard in the sky that controls your daily life and instead of thanking farmers for putting the food on your table you thank that retard in the sky. You have a good fairytale imagination.

Religions don't cause wars in general, but limits or stops them. Islam is not a real religion it's a whole way of life, and it's an arab supremecist plan turned into a religion for sole purpose of gaining power.

It's also entirely made up. Arabs were actually gnostic christians in the time mohommed supposedly lived.

[RandoBloom]

Religions don't cause wars in general, but limits or stops them. Islam is not a real religion it's a whole way of life, and it's an arab supremecist plan turned into a religion for sole purpose of gaining power.

It's also entirely made up. Arabs were actually gnostic christians in the time mohommed supposedly lived.

I chuckled.
Then I realised that you are serious and felt sorry for you

[Dál Riata]

See what religion has caused?

Says the guy who supports communism, the most irrational and bloodthirsty religion in history....

[Dál Riata]

Mohammed himself is responsible for the suffering of many people. He plagued my ancestral lands with an evil religion known as Islam and is the role model for millions of extremists in the world.

Fuck Hitler and fuck Stalin.

Mao and Pol Pot were heroes, they killed for the greater of humanity. All Capitalists, and far-right extreme wankers, should be executed publicly after being paraded half naked on donkeys. Their cause was just.

What's funny, is that you believe in some retard in the sky that controls your daily life and instead of thanking farmers for putting the food on your table you thank that retard in the sky. You have a good fairytale imagination.

You must surely be a troll, but just in case you're not, Mao and Pol Pot were more viscous and sadistic than any religion (and I'm no fan of Islam). They murdered millions of Chinese and Cambodian peasants, not 'capitalists' or 'right-wingers' (whatever that means as communists label everyone capitalist and right-wing).

God made the farmers and lives within those of us who believe. Those farmers who believe are part of God.

Communism was invented by Karl Marx who was a cousin of the Rothschilds, they paid him to write the Communist Manifesto. The Russian Tsar was overthrown because he resisted having a Rothschild controlled central bank installed in Russia. Communism was designed by capitalist bankers to trick you into betraying your own people, religion, nationality, family, and instead be a slave to the Rothschild billionaire bankers.

[RussiaPrussia]

Says the guy who supports communism, the most irrational and bloodthirsty religion in history....

and capitalism is awesome or what? It killed more people in the last 10 years alone than communism in the whole history


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04sPc3NEpK8

and billion others who life in poverty and hunger and die therfor

[Dál Riata]

Hitler was Catholic. Mao and Stalin worshipped themselves. Pol Pots' religious beliefs are unknown.

Hitler rejected Catholicism and murdered 3 million Catholics, gassing Catholic nuns in ovens.

Mao and Stalin worshipped themselves just as ALL atheists worship themselves. Pol Pot's religious beliefs were atheist and anti-religious. Why else did he ban religion and murder every Buddhist in the country?!

[CordedWhelp]

I really have come to hate these emotionally-based concepts that define people's conceptions about "a thing"....topic of this rant: the way the word Religion works now.

It is a bit cliche' now to reference George Orwell's 1984...but there is a line by one of the characters, when in discussion about the aims of new-speak...."language coming from the heart, not from the mind" (not a direct quote, but something like that...)

People like to group things. "Faith" becomes this generalized thing in the minds of the people, and the enemy has made this as part of the design of the deception...Christianity has become grouped into the thing called "religion"-alongside other things.

Do not blame Him, blame the bloody counterfeit governments which were never for the common people to begin with. I don't care if it's a self-proclaimed democratic republic, a Marxist-Leninist state, or the monarchs of Europe..

There is a lie for almost everyone. Father is the remedy.

[Dál Riata]

and capitalism is awesome or what? It killed more people in the last 10 years alone than communism in the whole history


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04sPc3NEpK8

and billion others who life in poverty and hunger and die therfor

No, capitalism is not 'awesome'. I grew up as an anti-capitalist socialist. But I always hated communism.

As for your video with the poor workers in Bangladesh. Under communism they would have been slave workers in a slave labour camp, then they would get shot dead or beaten to death.

Nazism is anti-capitalist, so is Nazism the answer?

"billion others who life in poverty and hunger and die" because of communism. Just about every famine in the 20th century was caused by communism. As I pointed out, communism was invented by the Rothschild capitalist banking family to enslave poor people and turn us into slave labour.

[Mason8]

Tunisian cleric Adel Almi has called for his country's citizens not to celebrate Christmas (http://ar.webmanagercenter.com/تونس-عادل-العلمي--الاحتفال-برأس-السنة-مخالف-للاسلام-وفي-سبيل-مرضاة-الشيطان/2013/12/26/20877/الحدث), saying that it is forbidden for Muslims to take Christian or Jewish customs. He quoted the Quranic verse saying that Christians and Jews will not be satisfied until Muslims take their religion.

He added, "Islam teaches the world not to take on the outdated customs of the scum of the earth."

Adel Almi heads (http://www.babnet.net/rttdetail-76664.asp) "The Association of Moderation Awareness and Reform."

He recently called for a Tunisian woman who posted topless photos on Facebook as a protest for women's rights to be stoned to death. (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-22/prosecute-the-cleric-not-the-topless-woman-in-tunisia.html)

[Petros Houhoulis]

Hitler rejected Catholicism and murdered 3 million Catholics, gassing Catholic nuns in ovens.

Evidence of 3 million Catholic nuns gassed in ovens?


Mao and Stalin worshipped themselves just as ALL atheists worship themselves.

Nope. I've heard no Atheist proclaim himself a god, no Atheist claiming eternal life or anything else. We Atheists are humans. According to all statistics of intelligence, Atheists are on average smarter than believers. If you consider this to be some sort of self-worship, you couldn't be more wrong.

Yes, we are arrogant, more often than not. Personally, I do not find it wrong to be arrogant. I find it wrong to be arrogant based upon lies and deceit. If you are telling the truth, arrogance is neither a defect, nor a form of self-worship.


Pol Pot's religious beliefs were atheist and anti-religious. Why else did he ban religion and murder every Buddhist in the country?!

Pol Pot hated civilization. He killed teachers also because they brought knowledge. He tried to destroy organized society as a whole, and yes, belief systems have been a factor of organized society for millenia, but they are not the sole factor of organized society. Atheism can also fit into belief systems. Comfucianism and Buddhism for example have no gods at all, because neither Comfucius nor Buddha were gods. Their followers didn't consider them gods, and they still not do so.

Since the Buddhist monks were by definition Atheists, the notion that Pol Pot killed Buddhist monks because of a plot to destroy god is ridiculous. Of course he tried to destroy religion, but religion was not his main target. It was simply one facet of an organized society.

Pol Pot was a textbook case of a nihilist.

[Rojava]

1. You did, and hundreds of milions died over ideologies.

A quote would prove it perhaps?




2. By telling you that you should check on your mom often, lest she chokes on dick

Astaghfirullah

[LightHouse89]

At least (http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2013/December/Christians-Targeted-in-Christmas-Day-Bombings/) 37 people died in Baghdad on Wednesday when militants targeted Christians in two separate bomb attacks, officials said.

In one attack, a car bomb went off near a church during Christmas Mass in the capital's southern Dora neighborhood, killing at least 26 people and wounding more than 38, a police official said.

http://www.atour.com/media/files/forums/20111005AIM015320.jpg

Earlier, a bomb ripped through an outdoor market in the nearby Christian section of Athorien, killing 11 people and wounding 21, the official added.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility for the attacks, but Iraq's dwindling Christian community, which is estimated to number about 400,000 to 600,000 people, has often been targeted by al-Qaida and other insurgents who see Christians as unbelievers.

Wednesday's bombings came amid a massive military operation in Iraq's western desert as authorities try to hunt down insurgents who have stepped up attacks across Iraq in the past months, sending violence to levels not seen since 2008.

The Christmas Day attacks brought the total number of people killed so far this month in Iraq to 441.



According to United Nations estimates, more than 8,000 people have been killed since the start of the year.

That's pretty fucked up. That's like predator droning people on their way to Ramadan.

[Rojava]

You must surely be a troll, but just in case you're not, Mao and Pol Pot were more viscous and sadistic than any religion (and I'm no fan of Islam). They murdered millions of Chinese and Cambodian peasants, not 'capitalists' or 'right-wingers' (whatever that means as communists label everyone capitalist and right-wing).

God made the farmers and lives within those of us who believe. Those farmers who believe are part of God.

Communism was invented by Karl Marx who was a cousin of the Rothschilds, they paid him to write the Communist Manifesto. The Russian Tsar was overthrown because he resisted having a Rothschild controlled central bank installed in Russia. Communism was designed by capitalist bankers to trick you into betraying your own people, religion, nationality, family, and instead be a slave to the Rothschild billionaire bankers.

When you said "The spaghetti monster made shit" in your comment that was what made me realize that there's no point arguing with you.

[LightHouse89]

Nazism [not Hitler's version] could work.

[Rojava]

Nazism [not Hitler's version] could work.

Tbh I was actually impressed with the way it was run. Well for Germans anyway.

[YeshAtid]

Proof that you can't civilise savages...

[StonyArabia]

Christians once again have become victims of Islamic fanatics

The country as whole is suffering from tribal, sectarian and ethnic conflicts.

[DarkoCGO]

islam=problems

[Maleficent]

Let's hope the victims are in heaven and the bombers are in hell.

[LightHouse89]

Mohammed himself is responsible for the suffering of many people. He plagued my ancestral lands with an evil religion known as Islam and is the role model for millions of extremists in the world.

Fuck Hitler and fuck Stalin.

Mao and Pol Pot were heroes, they killed for the greater of humanity. All Capitalists, and far-right extreme wankers, should be executed publicly after being paraded half naked on donkeys. Their cause was just.

What's funny, is that you believe in some retard in the sky that controls your daily life and instead of thanking farmers for putting the food on your table you thank that retard in the sky. You have a good fairytale imagination.

for the greater good? LOL I don't think they killed for the greater good but actually for their own good. They murdered intellectuals and anyone they viewed as a potential threat. The only good thing Communist did was have the brains to set up the Iron Curtain to keep liberal hippies out of Soviet nations. Strasserism mixed with Fascism is good. A median is the best solution in most cases especially political. [I don't believe Jews are in on some world conspiracy though].

[LightHouse89]

The country as whole is suffering from tribal, sectarian and ethnic conflicts.

which groups [tribe] usually attack the Christians?

[Rojava]

for the greater good? LOL I don't think they killed for the greater good but actually for their own good. They murdered intellectuals and anyone they viewed as a potential threat. The only good thing Communist did was have the brains to set up the Iron Curtain to keep liberal hippies out of Soviet nations. Strasserism mixed with Fascism is good. A median is the best solution in most cases especially political. [I don't believe Jews are in on some world conspiracy though].

So they claimed. It's what's Communism is supposed to be, the solution to our problems. I know the Soviets abused it and even Castro has abused it.

[Rojava]

Proof that you can't civilise savages...

My ancestors called your ancestors "barbarians".

[Dál Riata]

Evidence of 3 million Catholic nuns gassed in ovens?Nope. I've heard no Atheist proclaim himself a god, no Atheist claiming eternal life or anything else. We Atheists are humans. According to all statistics of intelligence, Atheists are on average smarter than believers. If you consider this to be some sort of self-worship, you couldn't be more wrong.

Yes, we are arrogant, more often than not. Personally, I do not find it wrong to be arrogant. I find it wrong to be arrogant based upon lies and deceit. If you are telling the truth, arrogance is neither a defect, nor a form of self-worship.

Pol Pot hated civilization. He killed teachers also because they brought knowledge. He tried to destroy organized society as a whole, and yes, belief systems have been a factor of organized society for millenia, but they are not the sole factor of organized society. Atheism can also fit into belief systems. Comfucianism and Buddhism for example have no gods at all, because neither Comfucius nor Buddha were gods. Their followers didn't consider them gods, and they still not do so.

Since the Buddhist monks were by definition Atheists, the notion that Pol Pot killed Buddhist monks because of a plot to destroy god is ridiculous. Of course he tried to destroy religion, but religion was not his main target. It was simply one facet of an organized society.

Pol Pot was a textbook case of a nihilist.

I said Hitler killed 3 million Catholics and gassed some Catholic nuns in ovens. He clearly rejected Catholicism.

Of course no Atheist literally proclaims himself a god, what I meant is that by rejecting a higher power as a source of morality and ultimate judge, atheists are unconsciously making themselves gods in the sense of creating their own moral universe. If Mao and Stalin worshiped themselves, it was because they were atheists. Most atheists will not behave as they did, but they are unconsciously removing the moral structure with which we can condemn mass murderers like them, including religious people who do wrong BTW.

You said "Pol Pots' religious beliefs are unknown". You then admitted that Pol Pot "tried to destroy religion, but religion was not his main target". Well if he tried to destroy religion, we can be certain that he was non-religious and anti-religious. Yes I know that Buddhists are technically atheists but they are still spiritual/religious and therefore aren't usually included when people are describing atheism. Most people mean non-religious, non-spiritual, philosophical materialists when they say atheists.

[Teyrn]

It was probably better if Saddam had been left in power instead of having a second Iraq war also known as "Bush War 2: Victory of the Oil Bandits." Everything was so chill... I mean, sure Saddam and his sons were ghey and all but sometimes you have to choose between one type of gheyness over another gheyness and the proper choice was to allow Saddam's gheyness to rule cuz the current gheyness is really too ghey.

Saddam was a loose end from the Reagan era that had to go because he was an obstacle to the bogus military-industrial/espionage complex "war on terror."

[Teyrn]

Hitler was Catholic. Mao and Stalin worshipped themselves. Pol Pots' religious beliefs are unknown.

Hitler was an Austrian and Austria's de-facto religion at the time was Catholicism. I don't think Hitler ever felt any particular attachment to the Church before the war- and during the war plenty of Catholics got sent to the camps (clergy, nuns, laity, etc.). In Poland for example six million citizens died (sent to the camps, shot, died in battle, etc.)- about 50/50 between Jews and ethnic Poles, i.e. Catholics. Quite a good son of the Church. :picard1:

[LightHouse89]

My ancestors called your ancestors "barbarians".

all races and cultures were barbarians. Not a Middle Easterner or a European can say otherwise. They viewed themselves as civilized to appease themselves. I am a proud Hibernian-Germanic barbarian. :cool:

[LightHouse89]

So they claimed. It's what's Communism is supposed to be, the solution to our problems. I know the Soviets abused it and even Castro has abused it.

I like Pan-National-Socialism. Not the expansionist ideas of Hitler though or the eradication of an entire race that to me is just evil. However the economical solutions the Nazis had were far better than Soviets. In a way the Arab Baathists too a degree are a good example of Pan-National Socialists. I do however not like many of their dictators as they seem more like playboys than actual leaders.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Saddam was a loose end from the Reagan era that had to go because he was an obstacle to the bogus military-industrial/espionage complex "war on terror."

I'm an obstacle to the military-industrial complex... I say stuff... usually to myself... alone in the dark... stuff that could get me killed.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Hitler was an Austrian and Austria's de-facto religion at the time was Catholicism. I don't think Hitler ever felt any particular attachment to the Church before the war- and during the war plenty of Catholics got sent to the camps (clergy, nuns, laity, etc.). In Poland for example six million citizens died (sent to the camps, shot, died in battle, etc.)- about 50/50 between Jews and ethnic Poles, i.e. Catholics. Quite a good son of the Church. :picard1:

It would be more accurate to suggest that Hitler, much like Stalin and Mao worshiped themselves first, and imposed a personality cult, that ascribe them to any religion. Nevertheless, Hitler was a nominal Catholic and he did never left the Catholic church officially.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler


Adolf Hitler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler) was raised by an anticlerical, sceptic father and a devout Catholic mother.Baptized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism) and confirmed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_(Catholic_Church)) as a child in Austria, he ceased to participate in the sacraments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacrament)after childhood. There was evidence of a "Christian element" in Hitler's early writings.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#cite_note-1) and evidence that Hitler continued to hold Jesus in high esteem, considering him to have been an Aryan fighter who struggled against Jewry.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#cite_note-2) It is generally accepted by historians that Hitler's post war and long term goal was the eradication of Christianity in Germany.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#cite_note-Bundle-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#cite_note-Concise-4) The adult Hitler did not believe in the Judeo-Christian notion of God (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Christianity), though various scholars consider his final religious position may have been a form of deism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism). Others consider him "atheist". The question of atheism is debated, however reputable Hitler biographers Ian Kershaw (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Kershaw), Joachim Fest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_Fest) and Alan Bullock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Bullock) agree Hitler was anti-Christian. According to Hitler's chief architect, Albert Speer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Speer), Hitler remained a formal member of the Catholic church until his death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Adolf_Hitler), and ordered his chief associates to remain members. [5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#cite_note-5) Biographer John Toland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Toland_(author)), wrote also that he was still "a member in good standing of the Church of Rome" and drew links between Hitler's Catholic background and his antisemitism.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#cite_note-Toland-6)Hitler supported the Deutsche Christen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Christen) church which rejected the Hebrew origins of the Gospel and stated first that Jesus was an Aryan and also that Paul as a Jew had falsified Jesus's message, a theme Hitler repeatedly mentioned in private conversations. In October 1941, when Hitler made the decision to murder the Jews, he repeated that very proclamation.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#cite_note-Susannah_Heschel_2008._pp_1-10-7) Once in power, the Hitler regime sought to reduce the influence of Christianity on German society, though by 1939, despite the encouragement of the Nazi Party, only around 5% of Germans had declared themselves neo-pagan deists (gottglaubig) or atheists.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#cite_note-8) The majority of the three million Nazi Party members continued to pay their church taxes and register as Christians.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#cite_note-9)
In his semi-autobiographical Mein Kampf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mein_Kampf), Hitler makes religious allusions, but declares himself neutral in sectarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectarian) matters and supportive of the separation between church and state, while criticising political Catholicism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_Catholicism). He presents a Social Darwinist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinist) vision, in which the universe is ordered around principles of struggle between weak and strong, rather than on conventional Christian notions long prominent in Germany. While campaigning for office in the early 1930s, Hitler offered moderate public statements on Christianity, promising not to interfere with the churches if given power, and calling Christianity the foundation of German morality. In power, the Hitler regime conducted a protracted Struggle with the Churches (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchenkampf). Hitler moved to eliminate political Catholicism, while agreeing a Reich concordat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reich_concordat) with the Holy See (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_See) which promised autonomy for the Catholic Church in Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Germany). Hitler then routinely violated the treaty, moved to close all Catholic organisations that weren't strictly religious, and permitted a persecution of the Catholic Church. He launched an effort to co-ordinate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleichschaltung) German Protestants under a unified Protestant Reich Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Reich_Church) under the Deutsche Christen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Christen) movement, but the attempt failed and was resisted by the Confessing Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessing_Church). He angered the churches by appointing the neo-pagan Alfred Rosenberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Rosenberg) as official Nazi ideologist, and generally permitted or encouraged anti-church radicals such as Himmler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Himmler), Goebbels and Bormann to conduct their persecutions of the churches. Smaller religious minorities faced far harsher repression, with the Jews of Germany expelled for extermination (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_holocaust) on the grounds of racist ideology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_ideology) and Jehovah's Witnesses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses) ruthlessly persecuted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_in_Nazi_Germa ny) for refusing military service, and any allegiance to Hitlerism.
Kershaw wrote that few people could really claim to "know" Hitler - "he was by temperament a very private, even secretive individual", unwilling to confide in others.[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#cite_note-Ian_Kershaw_p._373-10) In Hitler's Table Talk Hitler often voiced stridently negative views of Christianity. Bullock wrote that Hitler was a rationalist and materialist, who saw Christianity as a religion "fit for slaves", and against the natural law of selection and survival of the fittest.[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#cite_note-Hitler_p219-11) Richard J. Evans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_J._Evans) wrote that Hitler used a Nazi variant of the language of Social Darwinism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Darwinism) to persuade his followers that what they were doing was justified by "history, science and nature". Biographer John Toland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Toland_(author)), while noting Hitler's antagonism to the Pope (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII) and Catholic Church hierarchy, drew links between Hitler's Catholic background and his antisemitism.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#cite_note-Toland-6)Steigmann-Gall saw a "Christian element" in Hitler's early writings; and wrote that while use of the term "positive Christianity" in theNazi Party Program (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program) of 1920 is commonly regarded as a tactical measure", he himself believes that it was "more than a political ploy for winning votes" and instead adhered to an "inner logic" - though anti-Christians later fought to "expunge Christian influence from Nazism" and that the movement became "increasingly hostile to the churches".[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#cite_note-12) Following meetings with Hitler, General Gerhard Engel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Engel) and Cardinal Michael von Faulhaber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_von_Faulhaber) wrote that Hitler was a believer. Kershaw cites Faulhaber's encounter as an example of Hitler's ability to "pull the wool over the eyes of even hardened critics". Laurence Rees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurence_Rees) concludes that "Hitler's relationship in public to Christianity - indeed his relationship to religion in general - was opportunistic. There is no evidence that Hitler himself, in his personal life, ever expressed any individual belief in the basic tenets of the Christian church".[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler#cite_note-Laurence_Rees_p135-13)

Still, the Christians were stupid enough to be fooled by this man...

[Manifest Destiny]

See what religion has caused?

I see what Islam has caused.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I said Hitler killed 3 million Catholics and gassed some Catholic nuns in ovens. He clearly rejected Catholicism.

Of course no Atheist literally proclaims himself a god, what I meant is that by rejecting a higher power as a source of morality and ultimate judge, atheists are unconsciously making themselves gods in the sense of creating their own moral universe.

This can apply to Popes equally well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornocracy


Saeculum obscurum (Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language): the Dark Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_(historiography))) is a name given to a period in the history of the Papacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Papacy) during the first half of the 10th century, beginning with the installation of Pope Sergius III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Sergius_III) in 904 and lasting for sixty years until the death of Pope John XII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_XII) in 964. During this period, the Popes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope) were influenced strongly by a powerful and corrupt aristocratic family, the Theophylacti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophylacti), and their relatives.

The period was first identified and named by the Italian Cardinal and ecclesiastical historian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_history) Caesar Baronius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesar_Baronius) in his Annales Ecclesiastici (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annales_Ecclesiastici) in the sixteenth century.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornocracy#cite_note-Origin-1) Baronius' primary source for his history of this period was Liutprand of Cremona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liutprand_of_Cremona). Other scholars have dated the period more broadly or narrowly, and other terms, such as the Pornocracy (German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language): Pornokratie, from Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language)pornokratiā, "prostitute rule") and the Rule of the Harlots (German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language): Hurenregiment), were coined by Protestant German theologians in the nineteenth century[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)].
Historian Will Durant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Durant) refers to the period from 867 to 1049 as the "nadir of the papacy".[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornocracy#cite_note-2)

The Theophylacti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophylacti) family originated from Theophylactus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophylact_I,_Count_of_Tusculum). They held positions of increased importance in the Roman nobility such as Judex, vestararius, gloriosissimus dux, consul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consul) and senator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senator), and magister militum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magister_militum).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornocracy#cite_note-3) Theophylact (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophylact_I,_Count_of_Tusculum)'s wife Theodora (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodora_(senatrix)) and daughter Marozia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marozia)held a great influence over the papal selection and religious affairs in Rome through conspiracies, affairs, and marriages.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornocracy#cite_note-4)
Marozia became the concubine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concubine) of Pope Sergius III when she was 15 and later took other lovers and husbands.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornocracy#cite_note-Marozia-5) She ensured that her son John was seated as Pope John XI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_XI) according to Antapodosis sive Res per Europam gestae (958–62), by Liutprand of Cremona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liutprand_of_Cremona) (c. 920–72). Liutprand affirms that Marozia arranged the murder of her former lover Pope John X (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_X) (who had originally been nominated for office by Theodora) through her then husband Guy of Tuscany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_of_Tuscany) possibly to secure the elevation of her current favourite as Pope Leo VI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Leo_VI).[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornocracy#cite_note-Leo-6)There is no record substantiating that Pope John X had definitely died before Leo VI was elected since John X was already imprisoned by Marozia and was out of public view.
Theodora and Marozia undoubtedly held great sway over the Popes during this time.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] In particular, as political rulers ofRome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome) they had effective control over the election of new Popes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_selection_before_1059). Much that is alleged about the saeculum obscurum comes from the histories of Liutprand, bishop of Cremona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_of_Cremona). Liutprand took part in the Assembly of Bishops which deposed Pope John XII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_John_XII) and was a political enemy of the Roman aristocracy and its control over Papal elections. Lindsay Brook writes:

We must be especially circumspect about the writing of Liutprand of Cremona, perhaps the most polemical of the tenth century chroniclers, who had his own agenda to promote the revived western Roman Empire.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornocracy#cite_note-7)
Further:
It would be misleading to portray all, or even most, of the popes of the era as worldly and corrupt. Surviving documents (and there are obvious lacunae) make it clear that many were competent administrators, and skilful diplomats in difficult and dangerous times. Some were even reformers, keen to root out discreditable practices such as simony. Others ordered the rebuilding and restoration of Rome's churches and palaces... Rather, it is the manner of the election of many of them and their symbiotic relationship with the Roman aristocracy that has earned their regime the designation pornocracy."[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornocracy#cite_note-8)


If Mao and Stalin worshiped themselves, it was because they were atheists.

Maybe Stalin worshiped himself because he was educated in a Theological school:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Stalin#Education


At the age of ten, Joseph Vissarionovich received a scholarship to the Gori Theological School (Горийское Духовное Училище). His peers were mostly the sons of affluent priests, officials, and merchants. He and most of his classmates at Gori were Georgians and spoke mostly Georgian. However, at school they were forced to speak Russian, a policy set by Tsar Alexander III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_III_of_Russia)[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]. Stalin proved one of the best students in the class, earning top marks across the board. He became a very good choir-singer and was often hired to sing at weddings. He also began to write poetry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin%27s_poetry), something he would develop in later years.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Stalin#cite_note-Young_Stalin-1)Stalin's father had always wanted his son to train as a cobbler rather than become educated. He was infuriated when the boy was accepted into the school. In a drunken rage he smashed the windows of the local tavern, and later attacked the town police chief. Out of compassion for Stalin's mother, the police chief did not arrest Besarion, but told him to leave town. He moved to Tiflis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiflis) where he found work in a shoe factory and left his family behind in Gori (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gori,_Georgia).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Stalin#cite_note-3)
About the time Stalin began school, he was struck by a horse-drawn carriage. The accident permanently damaged his left arm. This injury would later exempt him from military service in World War I.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Stalin#cite_note-4) At the age of 12, Stalin was struck again by a horse-drawn carriage and injured much more severely. He was taken to a hospital in Tiflis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiflis) where he spent months in care. After he recovered, his father seized the boy and enrolled him as an apprentice cobbler at the shoe factory where he worked. When his mother – through the aid of contacts in the clergy and school staff – recovered the boy, his father cut off all financial support to his wife and son, leaving them to fend for themselves. Stalin returned to his school in Gori where he continued to excel. He graduated first in his class.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Stalin#cite_note-Young_Stalin-1)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Stalin#cite_note-5)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Stalin_1894.jpg/170px-Stalin_1894.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stalin_1894.jpg)
http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.23wmf7/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Stalin_1894.jpg)
Young Stalin, circa 1894, age 15



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3f/Image-Tbilisi_XIXc_05.jpg/220px-Image-Tbilisi_XIXc_05.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Image-Tbilisi_XIXc_05.jpg)
http://bits.wikimedia.org/static-1.23wmf7/skins/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Image-Tbilisi_XIXc_05.jpg)
Tiflis Orthodox Theological Seminary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiflis_Spiritual_Seminary) (c 1919)


In 1894, at the age of 15, he enrolled at the Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox_Church)Seminary of Tiflis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiflis_Spiritual_Seminary), to which he had been awarded a scholarship. The teachers at Tiflis Seminary were also determined to impose Russian language and culture on the Georgian students.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Stalin#cite_note-Young_Stalin-1) Like many of his comrades, young Stalin reacted by being drawn to Georgian patriotism. For a time, he wrote Georgian poetry, for which he gained some fame.
During his time at the seminary, Stalin and numerous other students read forbidden literature that includedVictor Hugo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Hugo) novels and revolutionary, including Marxist, material. He was caught and punished numerous times for this. He became an atheist in his first year.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Stalin#cite_note-6) He insisted his peers call him "Koba", after the Robin Hood-like protagonist of the novel The Patricide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Patricide) by Alexander Kazbegi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Kazbegi); he continued to use this pseudonym as a revolutionary.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Stalin#cite_note-Service28-7)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Stalin#cite_note-Radzinsky37-8) In August 1898, he joined the Russian Social-Democratic Labour Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Social-Democratic_Labour_Party), an organization from which the Bolsheviks would later form.
Shortly before the final exams, the Seminary abruptly raised school fees. Unable to pay, Stalin quit the seminary in 1899 and missed his exams, for which he was officially expelled.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Stalin#cite_note-9) Shortly after leaving school, Stalin discovered the early writings of Vladimir Lenin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lenin) and decided to become a revolutionary.[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]

Mao (and the Korean Kim Il Sung) followed the same pattern many years later, as the standard procedure like all Communists. Nevertheless, nearly all Chinese are Atheists, yet few of them turned genocidal (the Japanese killed more people in a short period of time during the rape of Nanking and other incidents, than Mao did in any equivalent period of his life, not to mention prior incidents like the boxer rebellion when the Chinese reverted to Cannibalism in order to survive)


Most Atheists will not behave as they did, but they are unconsciously removing the moral structure with which we can condemn mass murderers like them, including religious people who do wrong BTW.

Those people are not Atheists. An Atheist does not believe in any god. These people thought of themselves as gods. Furthermore, spiritual education - like the one followed by Stalin - can help people see behind the facade of religion and act even worse.


You said "Pol Pots' religious beliefs are unknown". You then admitted that Pol Pot "tried to destroy religion, but religion was not his main target". Well if he tried to destroy religion, we can be certain that he was non-religious and anti-religious.

The main point is that religion in South East Asia has nothing to do with god.


Yes I know that Buddhists are technically atheists but they are still spiritual/religious and therefore aren't usually included when people are describing atheism.

You do not include them when you describe Atheism. Educated people do consider them Atheists.


Most people mean non-religious, non-spiritual, philosophical materialists when they say Atheists.

This is the Yankee approach: "We only know what is in our backyard". We are talking about the world though... Not Western notions of religion.

We are not even discussing older savages like Genghis Khan (40 million corpses) or Tamerlane (17 million corpses) and the Mughals in India (up to 80 million corpses) who were all religious people...

[LightHouse89]

Hitler praised Islam over Catholicism and viewed Christianity as a pussy religion. He mentions it multple times in Mein Kampf. He said if the Germanic race was Islamic they would be the leaders of the world and at the top of the racial ladder ruling over other races. He sounded more nutty than I previously viewed him.

[Dombra]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uK3jAzSv9c&hd=1

[Dál Riata]

This can apply to Popes equally well:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornocracy

I don't worship popes. Popes are just blokes, some good, some bad. If a pope did wrong, its because he wasn't following Jesus and the Bible.


Maybe Stalin worshiped himself because he was educated in a Theological school:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Joseph_Stalin#Education

No. He 'worshiped himself' because he rejected the existence of an objective God 'out there' as a source of objective morality under whom all can be equal and all can be held accountable for their actions. Many kids rebel against their schooling. You cannot hold the school responsible.


Mao (and the Korean Kim Il Sung) followed the same pattern many years later, as the standard procedure like all Communists. Nevertheless, nearly all Chinese are Atheists, yet few of them turned genocidal (the Japanese killed more people in a short period of time during the rape of Nanking and other incidents, than Mao did in any equivalent period of his life, not to mention prior incidents like the boxer rebellion when the Chinese reverted to Cannibalism in order to survive) Those people are not Atheists. An Atheist does not believe in any god. These people thought of themselves as gods. Furthermore, spiritual education - like the one followed by Stalin - can help people see behind the facade of religion and act even worse.The main point is that religion in South East Asia has nothing to do with god.You do not include them when you describe Atheism. Educated people do consider them Atheists.

This is the Yankee approach: "We only know what is in our backyard". We are talking about the world though... Not Western notions of religion.

We are not even discussing older savages like Genghis Khan (40 million corpses) or Tamerlane (17 million corpses) and the Mughals in India (up to 80 million corpses) who were all religious people...

Nearly all Chinese are spiritual, even if they happen to be atheist, its not the materialism that most Western atheists believe in. Buddhists, Confucianists and Chinese ancestor worshipers believe in spiritual matters, traditional values, etc.

You're playing desperate word games. No realistic atheist would deny that Mao, Stalin, etc. are atheists. Worshiping themselves does not make them an all powerful entity that created the universe. Just the biggest baddest rat in the pack. They don't need to be a god for that.

Genghis Khan, Tamerlane (Muslim) and the Mughals (Muslims too). None of these followed the example and instructions of Jesus Christ.

[Petros Houhoulis]

I don't worship popes. Popes are just blokes, some good, some bad. If a pope did wrong, its because he wasn't following Jesus and the Bible.

You'd better be more careful with your statements. The Bible includes the Old Testament, and the Old Testament has been denounced by Christianity for being a load of shit... Anyway, Popes are no better than Atheists at being sources of morality or ultimate judges, and if the Popes cannot reach that standard, I cannot see why ordinary Catholics like you are capable of doing so.


No. He 'worshiped himself' because he rejected the existence of an objective God 'out there' as a source of objective morality under whom all can be equal and all can be held accountable for their actions.

The popes consider god as the source of objective morality, but they don't toe the line either. They didn't treat everybody as equal either. As a matter of fact, some Popes considered the slavery of the Black people as justifiable because of the Bible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#Old_Testament


In the book of Genesis, Noah condemns Ham and his descendents to perpetual servitude: "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers" (Gn 9:25). T. David Curp notes that this episode has been used to justify racialized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racialized) slavery, since "Christians and even some Muslims eventually identified Ham's descendents as black Africans".[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-Curp-5)Anthony Pagden argued that "This reading of the Book of Genesis merged easily into a medieval iconographic tradition in which devils were always depicted as black. Later pseudo-scientific theories would be built around African skull shapes, dental structure, and body postures, in an attempt to find an unassailable argument—rooted in whatever the most persuasive contemporary idiom happened to be: law, theology, genealogy, or natural science—why one part of the human race should live in perpetual indebtedness to another."[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-6)

You see, the problem with your fucking Bible is that everybody translate it the way they like. Since slavery was widespread even in the era of the New Testament, slavery is justified also in the New Testament:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#New_Testament


During the first century New Testament times, slaves converted to Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity), were regarded as freedman brothers in Christ and included in Christ's kingdom inheritance.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-Archer-4) These slaves were told to serve their masters as if they were serving Christ, with morals, faithfulness, and respectfullness (Ephesians 6:5-8 KJV).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-Archer-4) Slaves were told by Paul the Apostle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle) in his first Corinthian Epistle that they were to seek or purchase their freedom whenever possible. (I Corinthians 7:21 KJV) [4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-Archer-4)Avery Robert Dulles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avery_Robert_Dulles) held the opinion that "Jesus, though he repeatedly denounced sin as a kind of moral slavery, said not a word against slavery as a social institution", and believes that the writers of the New Testament did not oppose slavery either.[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-Dulles-40) In his paper published in Evangelical Quarterly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Quarterly), Kevin Giles notes that Jesus often encountered slavery, "but not one word of criticism did the Lord utter against slavery." Giles points to this fact as being used as an argument that Jesus approved of slavery.[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-41)
In several Pauline epistles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauline_epistles), and the First Epistle of Peter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_of_Peter), slaves are admonished to obey their masters, as to the Lord, and not to men.[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-42)[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-43)[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-44)[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-45)[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-46) Masters were also told to serve their slaves in the same way.[47] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-47) Slaves were told that their suffering was similar to the suffering that Christ endured.[48] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-48) Paul also puts forward that (NIV (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIV) version) "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus",[49] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-49) suggesting that Christians take off these titles because they are now clothed in Christ.[50] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-50) The Epistle to Philemon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_Philemon) has become an important text in regard to slavery, being used by pro-slavery advocates as well as by abolitionists.[51] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-51) In the epistle, Paul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_of_Tarsus) writes that he is returning Onesimus, a fugitive slave, back to his master Philemon. Paul also entreats Philemon to regard Onesimus as a beloved brother in Christ.[52] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-52) Cardinal Dulles points out that, "while discreetly suggesting that he manumit Onesimus, [Paul] does not say that Philemon is morally obliged to free Onesimus and any other slaves he may have had."[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-Dulles-40) He does, however, encourage Philemon to welcome Onesimus "not as a slave, but as more than a slave, as a beloved brother".[53] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-53) According to tradition, Philemon did free Onesimus, and both were eventually recognized as saints by the Church. T. David Curp asserts that, "Given that the Church received Philemon as inspired Scripture, Paul's ambiguity effectively blocked the early Fathers of the Church from denouncing slavery outright." Curp points out that St. John Chrysostom, in his sermon on Philemon, considers Paul's sending Onesimus back to his master a sign that slavery should not be abolished.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-Curp-5)
In the Epistle of Paul to Titus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_Titus), Paul appears to support the servitude of slaves: "Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior." [54] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-54)
In the First Epistle to the Corinthians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Epistle_to_the_Corinthians), Paul stated (here in the New American Standard Bible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_American_Standard_Bible) wording) that "Each man must remain in that condition in which he was called" while specifically adding that "Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that."[55] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#cite_note-55)

Which means that your Bible cannot be held as a code of morality whatsoever.


Many kids rebel against their schooling. You cannot hold the school responsible.

Yes you can, if the school is repressive.


Nearly all Chinese are spiritual, even if they happen to be Atheist, its not the materialism that most Western Atheists believe in. Buddhists, Confucianists and Chinese ancestor worshipers believe in spiritual matters, traditional values, etc.

I don't see any particular value in spiritualism or mysticism, although Atheism does not necessarily imply the severing of bonds within families. Atheism is not defined by "materialism" as if it promotes consumerism. Atheism is not defined by anything other than the refusal of the supernatural in all forms and shapes.


You're playing desperate word games. No realistic atheist would deny that Mao, Stalin, etc. are atheists. Worshiping themselves does not make them an all powerful entity that created the universe. Just the biggest baddest rat in the pack. They don't need to be a god for that.

By definition a true Atheist cannot play god because he does not recognize any god. Stalin was raised in priesthood and this is where he got the idea to replace god by himself. Mao simply copied him. Both of them declared Atheists, but they promoted their personal cult, which is contrary to Atheist norms.


Genghis Khan, Tamerlane (Muslim) and the Mughals (Muslims too). None of these followed the example and instructions of Jesus Christ.

All of these were mass murderers. Anyway, being a follower of Jesus Christ does not make you immune to being genocidal or plain criminal. No religious morality was ever able to solve the problems of the world, but only to soothe them in some occasions, and aggravate them on other occasions.

[Dál Riata]

You'd better be more careful with your statements. The Bible includes the Old Testament, and the Old Testament has been denounced by Christianity for being a load of shit... Anyway, Popes are no better than Atheists at being sources of morality or ultimate judges, and if the Popes cannot reach that standard, I cannot see why ordinary Catholics like you are capable of doing so. The popes consider god as the source of objective morality, but they don't toe the line either. They didn't treat everybody as equal either. As a matter of fact, some Popes considered the slavery of the Black people as justifiable because of the Bible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#Old_Testament


Christianity never rejected the Old Testament, it just doesn't follow everything in it blindly. Some of that stuff was just for Jews, other parts were necessary at the time. Some parts are for all time such as the Ten Commandments. No Christian would ever call the OT a 'load of shit' as you so eloquently put it.

I don't give a damn if popes 'toe the line' or not. Many atheists have blind faith in atheists like Karl Marx or Richard Dawkins. The principle of everybody as equal comes from the Bible even if some people deliberately misinterpreted the parable of Noah's flood in order to justify their own racial prejudice. It was Christians such as William Wilberforce who fought against the slavery of the Black people just as Christian Bible preacher Martin Luther King Jr fought against segregation.


You see, the problem with your fucking Bible is that everybody translate it the way they like. Since slavery was widespread even in the era of the New Testament, slavery is justified also in the New Testament:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery#New_Testament

Which means that your Bible cannot be held as a code of morality whatsoever.Yes you can, if the school is repressive.I don't see any particular value in spiritualism or mysticism, although Atheism does not necessarily imply the severing of bonds within families. Atheism is not defined by "materialism" as if it promotes consumerism. Atheism is not defined by anything other than the refusal of the supernatural in all forms and shapes.By definition a true Atheist cannot play god because he does not recognize any god. Stalin was raised in priesthood and this is where he got the idea to replace god by himself. Mao simply copied him. Both of them declared Atheists, but they promoted their personal cult, which is contrary to Atheist norms.

All of these were mass murderers. Anyway, being a follower of Jesus Christ does not make you immune to being genocidal or plain criminal. No religious morality was ever able to solve the problems of the world, but only to soothe them in some occasions, and aggravate them on other occasions.

People translate every "fucking " book the way they like. The Bible still has the best morality. Whats your 'code of morality' then?

Materialism is the rejection of the supernatural. If you reject the supernatural, that makes you a materialist. Consumerism is a symptom of materialism. Communism is based on materialism too even though it condemns consumerism as a 'sin'. All communists are materialists.

Stalin and Mao both rejected the supernatural and were therefore atheists and anti-religious. They didn't believe themselves to be gods, they were just King Rats. That's ultimately were atheism leads us. To be King of the Rats for a few short years before you die and are forgotten forever....

[MarkyMark]

^Nicely said, but I don't think irreligiousness always makes you a materialist.

[Petros Houhoulis]

Christianity never rejected the Old Testament, it just doesn't follow everything in it blindly. Some of that stuff was just for Jews, other parts were necessary at the time. Some parts are for all time such as the Ten Commandments. No Christian would ever call the OT a 'load of shit' as you so eloquently put it.

I am not a Christian, in case you didn't notice.

Anyway, you have come to realize that something of what is written in your "holy" Bible was "necessary for their time". In fact a lot of that material is unnecessary for our time, and there is no divine rule to distinguish between what was necessary for back then, and what is necessary today. The distinction is made with modern critique, something that is moving you away from a divine inspiration of your morality.


I don't give a damn if popes 'toe the line' or not. Many atheists have blind faith in atheists like Karl Marx or Richard Dawkins.

I never claimed that the Atheists are perfect creatures, but suggesting that many of them have "blind faith" is a bit far fetched. Neither Marx nor Dawkins claimed to have a divine exclusivity upon the truth, and both of them were willing to accept criticism and reform their positions when confronted with more information.


The principle of everybody as equal comes from the Bible even if some people deliberately misinterpreted the parable of Noah's flood in order to justify their own racial prejudice. It was Christians such as William Wilberforce who fought against the slavery of the Black people just as Christian Bible preacher Martin Luther King Jr fought against segregation.

As I said, people interpret the Bible anyway they like. Ultimately, the Bible is effectively twisted and turned in order to conform to modern beliefs which are frequently irrelevant to the Biblical times, and nothing in the Bible provides an answer for them.


People translate every "fucking " book the way they like. The Bible still has the best morality. Whats your 'code of morality' then?

My morality is depended upon my knowledge. The more I know, the better judgement I can make upon issues. Usually modern information is much more useful than whatever people wrote a few millenia ago. Back then many people were ignorant, while modern people tend to be more educated. Overall, there is no "holy" book to be used as a code of morality, but Ancient texts like the Iliad or Thukidydes' history of the Peloponessian war are a far better reading than the Bible or the Quran. Neither of them are authoritative in the sense of dictating how peoples' lives should be run, but they do say a lot about how things can get ugly and out of control. It is good to know how things can turn ugly, but there is no universal code of morality because times change, and this makes the need for new moral codes over time essential, even if the changes are minimal in the short term.


Materialism is the rejection of the supernatural. If you reject the supernatural, that makes you a materialist. Consumerism is a symptom of materialism. Communism is based on materialism too even though it condemns consumerism as a 'sin'. All communists are materialists.

If I was a materialist, I wouldn't be talking to you, because I this does not change any material for me. Consumerism is not limited to Atheism, the hoarding of possessions has been compatible with most religions, including Christianity.


Stalin and Mao both rejected the supernatural and were therefore atheists and anti-religious. They didn't believe themselves to be gods, they were just King Rats. That's ultimately were atheism leads us. To be King of the Rats for a few short years before you die and are forgotten forever....

There are many kings rats outside of the Atheist community. I can mention countless modern mobsters who were 1000% loyal to the Catholic church, and yet they had no qualms at being king rats. Furthermore, neither their lives are forgotten, nor Stalins' or Maos' lives are forgotten. Stalin is still very popular in Russia nowadays.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/01/joseph-stalin-more-popular-in-russia-now_n_2791776.html


Joseph Stalin More Popular In Russia Now Than At End Of Soviet Union, Finds Carnegie Survey

By VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/01/joseph-stalin-more-popular-in-russia-now_n_2791776.html?view=print&comm_ref=false) 03/01/13 02:32 PM ET ESThttp://i.huffpost.com/gen/1017108/thumbs/r-JOSEPH-STALIN-MORE-POPULAR-RUSSIA-NOW-large570.jpg?6 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/01/joseph-stalin-more-popular-in-russia-now_n_2791776.html?view=print&comm_ref=false)

MOSCOW -- An opinion survey commissioned by the Carnegie Endowment says that Soviet dictator Josef Stalin has remained widely admired in Russia and other ex-Soviet nations, even though millions of people died under his brutally repressive rule.
The Carnegie report, released Friday, was based on the first-ever comparative opinion polls in Russia, Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia. It found that support for Stalin in Russia has actually increased since the 1991 collapse of the Soviet Union.
The report has concluded that public attitudes to the dictator have improved during Russian President Vladimir Putin's 13-year rule as the Kremlin has found Stalin's image useful in its efforts to tighten control.
The tyrant led the Soviet Union from 1924 until his death in 1953. Communists and other hardliners credit him with leading the country to victory in World War II, and making it a nuclear superpower, while others condemn the brutal purges that killed millions of people.
One of the report's authors, Lev Gudkov, a Russian sociologist whose polling agency conducted the survey, noted that in 1989, the peak of Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev's efforts to liberalize the country and expose Stalinist crimes, only 12 percent of Russians polled described Stalin as one of the most prominent historical figures.
In the Carnegie poll last year, 42 percent of Russian respondents named Stalin as the most influential historical figure.
"Vladimir Putin's Russia of 2012 needs symbols of authority and national strength, however controversial they may be, to validate the newly authoritarian political order," Gudkov wrote in the Carnegie report. "Stalin, a despotic leader responsible for mass bloodshed but also still identified with wartime victory and national unity, fits this need for symbols that reinforce the current political ideology."
Putin, a former KGB officer, has avoided open public praise or criticism of Stalin, but he has restored Soviet-era symbols and focused on the nation's Soviet-era achievements rather than Stalinist crimes. Kremlin critics have seen attempts to whitewash Stalin's image as part of Putin's rollback on democracy.
Many in Russia have been dismayed by government-sponsored school textbooks that paint Stalin in a largely positive light and by the reconstruction of a Moscow subway station that restored old Soviet national anthem lyrics praising Stalin as part of its interior decoration.
In the most recent sign of respect for the dictator earlier this year, the regional legislature decreed that the city of Volgograd, which was known as Stalingrad until its renaming in 1961, should once again be known by its old name on days commemorating the historic WWII battle. In some Russian cities, authorities ordered images of Stalin to be put on city buses as part of festivities.
The Carnegie report revealed that while a high number of Russians have a positive view of Stalin, his era mostly draws negative perceptions, an ambiguity that reflects public confusion, the legacy of totalitarian "doublethink" and paternalist state model.



An even greater admiration of Stalin was seen in his homeland, Georgia, where 45 percent of respondents expressed a positive view of him. In Armenia, 38 percent of those polled said their country will always need leaders like Stalin. In Azerbaijan, where respondents viewed Stalin more negatively compared to the three other nations, 22 percent of those polled didn't even know who Stalin was.

As you can see Stalin is not very popular in Muslim Azerbaijan, unlike the Christian Armenia or his Georgian homeland. Fact of life remains is that the savagery of Stalin has helped our interests more than many Westerner bumblefucks... Personally I am not seeking the second coming of Jesus, but the "second coming" of a Stalin-like figure, as an antidote to radical Islamism.