The Heathen Roots of Christmas [split from Christmas Presents]

[Mesrine]

"Heathen" folks who celebrate Christmas, allow me to laugh at that. :D

[Osweo]

"Heathen" folks who celebrate Christmas, allow me to laugh at that. :D

Don't be daft. Christmas is a traditional English holiday. Just because I no longer believe in that strange foreign god with the red and white suit, beard and reindeer, doesn't mean I can't take part in a cultural activity that has taken his name. :rolleyes:











EDIT: You're French, I'd better spell out the humour;
Father Christmas's role is hardly an absolutely essential part of the festivities anyway. The Yuletide holiday was English long before any foreign missionary brought his cult to our shores.

[Loddfafner]

"Heathen" folks who celebrate Christmas, allow me to laugh at that. :D

Christmas is Yule, the tree is Yggdrasil, and Santa is Thor or Odin (depending on the specific European tradition) in disguise. Christ is a stand-in for Balder which is the reason for the mistletoe. Just as Afro-caribbean slaves disguised the Yoruba gods as Catholic saints, us heathens can celebrate a fully heathen holiday in the company of Christians.

[Mesrine]

Don't be daft.

Don't be in bad faith.



Fixed.


Christmas is a traditional Christian holiday.



Just because I no longer believe in that strange foreign god with the red and white suit, beard and reindeer

Oh, you mean the American X-mas? I was talking of the real one.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Folio_52r_-_The_Adoration_of_the_Magi.jpg



doesn't mean I can't take part in a cultural activity that has taken his name. :rolleyes:

Of course, but it just makes you what your truly are: a cultural Christian.




EDIT: You're French, I'd better spell out the humour;
Father Christmas's role is hardly an absolutely essential part of the festivities anyway. The Yuletide holiday was English long before any foreign missionary brought his cult to our shores.

Say what you want, you still celebrate a Christian holiday.



Christmas is Yule, the tree is Yggdrasil, and Santa is Thor or Odin (depending on the specific European tradition) in disguise. Christ is a stand-in for Balder which is the reason for the mistletoe. Just as Afro-caribbean slaves disguised the Yoruba gods as Catholic saints, us heathens can celebrate a fully heathen holiday in the company of Christians.

Bullshit, and same punition: you're only a weak "cultural" Christian. Same as Osweo. The false username (smug surrender monkey) you created on your quote of my post is a clear admission that I've hit the nail on the head, and that there's nothing to answer to what I said.

False neo-pagans who try to find any excuse to disguise the fact they celebrate THE universal Christian holiday with a good part of the planet only make me laugh harder. :lol00001:

[Osweo]

Oh, you mean the American X-mas? I was talking of the real one.
No, you're just being ignorant. We have Father Christmas, the Americans have 'Santa Claus'. :rolleyes2:

Of course, but it just makes you what your truly are: a cultural Christian.
I am a cultural Protestant, to be more accurate, but I see no reason to hide it. So much in it is of US and our unique nature no matter what religion our old kings converted to. There's little that St Paul would recognise in it.

Say what you want, you still celebrate a Christian holiday.
Pope Gregory the Great explicitly instructed missionaries to commandeer existing non-Christian traditions. We're just doing the same thing we've always done.

And surprise; it's cold this time of year, so we have a nice feast, celebrate nature's survival with evergreen foliage, give each other presents to counteract SAD, and so on. What the hell any of this has to do with that unfortunate radical rabbi who got tortured to death 2000 years ago is beyond me.

I don't put any effort into refuting Christian ideas, but I've heard people argue that it was impossible that Jesus was born in December anyway, if the shepherds story is correct. :shrug:

[Mesrine]

No, you're just being ignorant. We have Father Christmas, the Americans have 'Santa Claus'. :rolleyes2:

Two different names for the same thing. You're just being dishonest here.



And surprise; it's cold this time of year, so we have a nice feast, celebrate nature's survival with evergreen foliage, give each other presents to counteract SAD, and so on.

Christmas is supposed to celebrate the Nativity of Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativity_of_Jesus), nothing to do with what you said.



What the hell any of this has to do with that unfortunate radical rabbi who got tortured to death 2000 years ago is beyond me.

At least he existed, unlike so-called pagan "divinities".

[Loddfafner]

Christmas is supposed to celebrate the Nativity of Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativity_of_Jesus), nothing to do with what you said.


Jesus was born in the spring. The tradition of celebrating his birth in December was to coopt traditional solstice observations. Christians borrowed from heathen traditions the ingredients for what one does on a holiday, so those of us who hope to revive heathenism can look to those folk traditions for celebrating Christmas as historic relics of a largely lost world. We can celebrate a family holiday with Christian kin without any sense of dissonance. While Christians look to the creche, heathens can see echoes of Odin and Thor in the otherwise inexplicable figure of Santa, and we can see echoes of ancient Germanic tree worship in the Christmas tree. If they drag us to a church, we can look at the gothic pillars as an effort to emulate the old sacred oak groves.

Easter is similar. The egg-laying rabbits are blatant fertility symbols, and oddly enough, one of the old goddesses was named Ostara.

[Osweo]

Two different names for the same thing. You're just being dishonest here.
No. Father Christmas = OUR tradition
'Santa Claus' = a related American tradition.
:rolleyes:
You do see idiots here using the 'Santa' name occasionally, but my family always roll their eyes at this.

Anyroad, piss all to do with any carpenter from Nazareth.


Christmas is supposed to celebrate the Nativity of Jesus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nativity_of_Jesus), nothing to do with what you said.
Jesus imagery is of a newborn baby anyway, not a saviour or Pantokrator, and thus nothing to do with the central ideas of Christianity.
In the majority of English homes at Christmas, we barely even realise that there's a connection between what we do and the Middle East's classical past. Jesus figures in the songs, but most of the words are so archaic that children don't even know what they mean.

It's like in Siberia. There are Turkic peoples there practising shamanism, and worshipping old Turkic Gods. But if they drop heavy objects on their toes they burst our with odd Mongol-Tibetan phrases of Buddhist origin! That's what Christianity is for many Englishmen these days. And perhaps it was always like that to at least some extent among the uneducated.

At least he existed, unlike so-called pagan "divinities".
You don't know what you're arguing against. Existence has many forms. You're probably too materialistic to get that though. Many of our ancestors laughed at anthropomorphic Classical polytheism, as you well know.

[Allenson]

Regardless of its current religious affiliations, Yule/Christmas is very much now a cultural tradition and one that can be looked at, and taken from, many different vantage points.

Its origins are clearly pre-Christian. As a kid, long before I even knew anything of these origins, I always most appreciated the more naturalistic elements of the Season--the trees, the wreaths, the winter (we have real winter here), the bending of the year and the return of the light, etc.

If people want to use the season to celebrate JC's birth, gitty-up. If they prefer a more native, naturalistic approach, so be that too. ;)

[Osweo]

If they drag us to a church, we can look at the gothic pillars as an effort to emulate the old sacred oak groves.
Ssorry Lodd, we're busted. :( They figured this one out:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10592

[Mesrine]

Jesus was born in the spring.

There's no proof of that. Anwyay we're not even sure of his exact year of birth.



Christians borrowed from heathen traditions the ingredients for what one does on a holiday, so those of us who hope to revive heathenism can look to those folk traditions for celebrating Christmas as historic relics of a largely lost world. We can celebrate a family holiday with Christian kin without any sense of dissonance.

Indeed. "Heathens" are too insignificant to create any dissonance.



While Christians look to the creche, heathens can see echoes of Odin and Thor in the otherwise inexplicable figure of Santa

Saint Nicholas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas) of Myra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myra) (Demre, Turkey), an "echo of Odin and Thor"? :lol00001:



and we can see echoes of ancient Germanic tree worship in the Christmas tree. If they drag us to a church, we can look at the gothic pillars as an effort to emulate the old sacred oak groves.

This all proves the power, success and universality of Christianism, as it was able to assimilate former cults.



Easter is similar. The egg-laying rabbits are blatant fertility symbols, and oddly enough, one of the old goddesses was named Ostara.

In France, Spain and Italy it's not "Easter", but Pâques/Pascua/Pasqua (related to Hebrew "Pasch").

[Frigga]

This certainly justifies its own thread methinks! :chin:

[Mesrine]

Father Christmas = OUR tradition
'Santa Claus' = a related American tradition.
:rolleyes:

Your country is the 51st state of the USA, big deal.



You don't know what you're arguing against.

Against nothing, indeed.



Existence has many forms. You're probably too materialistic to get that though.

No. As far as we know, it only has a material form. You're probably too delusional to get that though.



Many of our ancestors laughed at anthropomorphic Classical polytheism, as you well know.

I laugh at that too.



This certainly justifies it's own thread methinks! :chin:

What is "this"? Lodffafner and Osweo's attempt of rewriting History with their ridiculous reconstructed neo-pagan POV?

[Osweo]

Saint Nicholas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas) of Myra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myra) (Demre, Turkey), an "echo of Odin and Thor"? :lol00001:

All Anatolian Greeks ride about in reindeer pulled sledges, eh?

I find it hard to believe that you really are so ignorant of how many Saints' cults were superimposed onto older divinites to 'sanitise' them while maximising on their habitual popularity. Stella Maris is a good example from your neck of the woods. So you're obviously just trolling. Piss off and do summat useful with your time. :rolleyes:

[Frigga]

What is "this"? Lodffafner and Osweo's attempt of rewriting History with their ridiculous reconstructed neo-pagan POV?

Just the debate in general. ;)

[Mesrine]

I find it hard to believe that you really are so ignorant of how many Saints' cults were superimposed onto older divinites to 'sanitise' them while maximising on their habitual popularity. Stella Maris is a good example from your neck of the woods.

Never said there was nothing before Christianism. As usual you're just dishonest, like everytime you're grasping for straws.



So you're obviously just trolling. Piss off and do summat useful with your time. :rolleyes:

No, man. You are the one who's trolling reality and facts. So shut the fuck up and go sit on the fence, mister "I'm not heathen but I sympathize with them".

[Loddfafner]

Indeed. "Heathens" are too insignificant to create any dissonance.

Insignificance is irrelevant. We exist and that is enough.



Saint Nicholas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas) of Myra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myra) (Demre, Turkey), an "echo of Odin and Thor"? :lol00001:

Father Christmas/Santa varies by European country. The American commercialized version has roots in the traditions of Dutch settlers in New York. The English variant evokes Odin while the Swedish equivalent is accompanied by goats - as was Thor. The Dutch version rides a horse with a name that evokes Sleipnir.


This all proves the power, success and universality of Christianism, as it was able to assimilate former cults.




In France, Spain and Italy it's not "Easter", but Pâques/Pascua/Pasqua (related to Hebrew "Pasch").

[Mesrine]

Fixed.


"Heathenry" is irrelevant.





We exist and that is enough.

One person alone also exists. :D

[Aemma]

Bullshit, and same punition: you're only a weak "cultural" Christian. Same as Osweo. The false username (smug surrender monkey) you created on your quote of my post is a clear admission that I've hit the nail on the head, and that there's nothing to answer to what I said.

False neo-pagans who try to find any excuse to disguise the fact they celebrate THE universal Christian holiday with a good part of the planet only make me laugh harder. :lol00001:

Geez Sav, come on, this is meant to be a fun and nice thread. Bloody chill, Man. This is so not cool. I know you can be nicer than this.

As for we "neo-pagans" :rolleyes:, well you obviously don't know much about what it is we do celebrate and why we celebrate it. And no, it has absolutely nothing to do with the Christian holiday called Christmas. We celebrate the Yuletide which, as Ossi has rightly pointed out, has been in existence long before any Abrahamic faith reached any European shores.

So let's enjoy the nature of the thread and not derail it with some negative horsecrap shall we?

[Mesrine]

Geez Sav, come on, this is meant to be a fun and nice thread. Bloody chill, Man. This is so not cool. I know you can be nicer than this.

So let's enjoy the nature of the thread and not derail it with some negative horsecrap shall we?

Err, I'm currently laughing at "heathens" celebrating Christmas. So it's you who should chill.



As for we "neo-pagans"

"Cultural Christians" pretending to be something else is what you are, in reality.


well you obviously don't know much about what it is

Oh, but I do. Read above.



we do celebrate and why we celebrate it. And no, it has absolutely nothing to do with the Christian holiday called Christmas. We celebrate the Yuletide which, as Ossi has rightly pointed out, has been in existence long before any Abrahamic faith reached any European shores.

These cults are dead since 2000 years. It's not because a bunch of funny inoffensive new-age loonies pretend to revive it that it really exists again. :D

[Aemma]

Err, I'm currently laughing at "heathens" celebrating Christmas. So it's you who should chill.

Do you really want to make this a pissing contest Sav?

Nobody said that we celebrated Christmas. We celebrate Yule. End of story.

Now get with the fucking program and stop antagonising.

[Loddfafner]

I gave the thread this title because "Serious responses to arrogant and presumptuous dismissals of other people's religious practices in the name of bland modern conformity" would be too long. If Psychonaut objects to its placement in the heathenry portal I can move it to the christian forum.

[Mesrine]

Do you really want to make this a pissing contest Sav?

This is not a contest.



Nobody said that we celebrated Christmas.

But it was the title of the thread, before it got split-up.


Christmas Presents...


What's on your Christmas list? What do you want from Father Christmas this year?




Fixed.


We have fun pretending to celebrate [insert any ancient Germanic pagan holyday].

[Loki]

This certainly beats "mulattoes @ Apricity". :chin:

:fcinema:

[Mesrine]

I gave the thread this title because "Serious responses to arrogant and presumptuous dismissals of other people's religious practices in the name of bland modern conformity" would be too long.

If you think your ridiculous responses are "serious", then this title would have been even more false and dishonest than the current one.

[Jägerstaffel]

http://ewonsphotoshop.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/god-jul-blogg.jpg

:)

[Óttar]

December 25th was the day of the Unconquerable Sun, or Dies Sol Invictus. Sol Invictus was related to Mithras, a Romanized Persian deity whose cult and worship was adopted by Roman soldiers. No one actually knows when Jesus was born, and other churches celebrated his birthday on a different date.

It is a well-known fact that Saint's Days were imposed on earlier pagan festivals and saints imposed on, and blended with pagan gods. In Greece, they even have the local "saints" Demetra and Agia Kore (read: the goddesses Demeter and Kore). St. Brigid in Ireland is the goddess Brigid etc. You can see proof of this blend in Italian folk customs as well.

The Church, hungry for power, realised that goddess temples in the mediterranean were HUGE sources of income, so they rededicated these temples to the Virgin Mary. Notice how there is a Mary for every locality, and a Mary for every attribute, like goddesses in the mediterranean. The way the saints are prayed to in Catholic tradition i.e. saints epithets, reminding the saint of past aid, extolling the virtues of the saint, follow the exact same formula for prayer to deities in the Roman world. For example, Venus, thou who art called Cynthia in Cyprus, foam born, who didst save thy son Aeneas, be thou kind unto me, and be thou propitiated, etc.

Note how Catholics refer to Mary as Queen of Heaven, Regina Coelesti. In the Middle Ages, shrines to Mary were called "Palaces of the Queen of Heaven." Note the only time "Queen of Heaven" appears in the bible, is in Jeremiah (as in my signature) and it refers to the Near Eastern and Mediterranean goddess variously called Astarte, Aphrodite, Venus, Asherah etc.

Therefore it is not ridiculous that a pagan or heathen celebrate Dec. 25th. be it Yule or Dies Sol Invictus. It was our holiday first.

[Osweo]

I use the word 'Christmas' because I made an inclusive thread for everybody, just to chat about what presents people were buying and wanted, sharing ideas for ways to make people happy, not a thread just for Christians or Heathens or Atheists or whatever. This is what you get for trying to be nice. :rolleyes:

I don't even see any problems using a word that people are used to, and which is SO lacking in overt Christian ideas in my culture anyway, especially nowadays, but even in the past. We can easily reel off tens of features that originate in our old religion, probably even in the religions that were followed here BEFORE the Indo-European languages took root in this land. It doesn't matter so much what the holiday is called at all.

[Mesrine]

t is a well-known fact that Saint's Days were imposed on earlier pagan festivals and saints imposed on, and blended with pagan gods.

Where did I stated the opposite? I've repeated many times that it was Christianism's greatness and universalism to assimilate former cults, in an original syncretism, our thing.



Therefore it is not ridiculous that a pagan or heathen celebrate Dec. 25th. be it Yule or Dies Sol Invictus. It was our holiday first.

I suppose "our" stands for your pre-Christian ancestors? This way, you reject all your forefathers of the last 1500+ years.

It's nonsensical to pretend to honour ancestors when you totally reject their faith as something alien.

[Electronic God-Man]

This way, you reject all your forefathers of the last 15000+ years.

:dielaughing:

[Mesrine]

:dielaughing:

Fixed, thanks. That was one "0" too many indeed, I wasn't paying attention.

[Jägerstaffel]

As descendants of European Christendom, I'm sure most heathens aren't wholly ridiculing or belittling the faiths of their ancestors. They are, however, celebrating in the Pre-Christian roots of the practice, the way that those Pre-Christian roots have continued on through the years and celebrating what they feel are the true ideals of the holiday.

To say that Christmas (or Yule/Jul, - you do realise not all Europeans call it Christmas right?) is without Christian influence is silly and I'm sure no one is proposing that. But to say that is without Pre-Christian roots and cannot be celebrated in either a secular or Non-Christian way is just as silly and willfully ignorant.

As Osweo and Allenson have hinted at, many celebrate Christmas/Jul as a secular celebration of warmth and life in winter and the giving of gifts. How many children do you think all over the world really think of Jesus when they think of Christmas?

[Osweo]

I suppose "our" stands for your pre-Christian ancestors? This way, you reject all your forefathers of the last 15000+ years.
Quite apt that you slipped and put an extra 0 there!

15000 - 1500 = 13500 of 'affronted' ancestors! :p

(and it's more like 1340 years ago where I'm from)

But actually, very few of my ancestors will really have had much decent conception of what Christianity is all about, considering how it was served up to them in a disguise taken from their old traditions in the first place.

The true face of Christianity was only seen after the Reformation. And guess what! - It very soon led to a rejection of it.

It's nonsensical to pretend to honour ancestors when you totally reject their faith as something alien.
You've completely missed the point. The folk religion has remained constant. The names of the supernatural agencies change occasionally, but the rites of the masses don't so much at all. My Irish ancestors 500 years ago prayed to 'St Brigit' for the same sort of things they prayed to Brigantia for a millenium earlier. The peasants of 2009 BC would probably recognise a great deal of what I'll be doing on the 25th of December this year.

[Loddfafner]

If you think your ridiculous responses are "serious", then this title would have been even more false and dishonest than the current one.

Is there any point to making such glib attacks on a culture you clearly do not understand, much as the old colonialists engaged in their mission civilisatrice? Or do you have any serious argument to make? You could argue that innovation in holiday celebrations is somehow illegitimate, you could argue that the historical record does not support continuity between the most ancient customs and the first mentioning of christmas trees and the like in the written historical record, or you could argue that you find it all too unconvincing for you, yourself, to toast the old gods but if others want to explore and develop that custom, fine.



It's nonsensical to pretend to honour ancestors when you totally reject their faith as something alien.

On the contrary. Acknowledgment of those ancestors from the intervening centuries is very much a reason to graciously combine our celebration of Yule with our kin's celebration of Christmas.

[Óttar]

It's nonsensical to pretend to honour ancestors when you totally reject their faith as something alien.
No. I honor my Divine Mother using Her real name and I accord Her full status instead of relegating Her to a pathetic, long-suffering handmaiden. Any cult with billions of dollars and a fraternal cabal with good business and political acumen could assimilate smaller cults. Big Deal.

As for rejecting Christianity as foreign, the cult of Isis started in Egypt and then spread to Greece and on into Rome and most of the provinces of her empire. I obviously don't condemn those. I reject Christianity because it's bullshit and it sucks obviously.

[Mesrine]

To say that Christmas (or Yule/Jul, - you do realise not all Europeans call it Christmas right?)

Indeed, since we don't speak an unified language. It's Weihnachten/Christmas/Natale/Navidad/Noël/Boże Narodzenie, sticking to the biggest countries. Never heard anyone one calling it "yule/jul/whatever" until tonight.



But to say that is without Pre-Christian roots and cannot be celebrated in either a secular or Non-Christian way is just as silly and willfully ignorant.

Read my previous post again, I've spoken about that. But having assimilated pagan influences, a Christian holiday is still a Christian holiday.



As Osweo and Allenson have hinted at, many celebrate Christmas/Jul as a secular celebration of warmth and life in winter and the giving of gifts. How many children all over the world really think of Jesus when they think of Christmas?

Indeed, Christmas is pretty much dead, I'm the first to say it, but don't mistake the current meaning (for the vast majority of the Western population) for any re-created neo-paganism. No, it's only the West's new de facto religion: consumerism and its numerous malls, sorry, "churches".

[Jägerstaffel]

You've never heard it called Yule/Jul?

Look North.

[Gooding]

The Heathen roots of Christmas? The festival was altered in theme to celebrate the Nativity of Christ, yes? There are still elements that recall pre-Christian traditions of the lands that celebrated Saturnalia, Yuletide or some other feast, but there are Christian traditions that redefine the season.Now, of course, there are secular elements that have been added as well.

[Mesrine]

Quite apt that you slipped and put an extra 0 there!

I slipped on my keyboard, you slipped on your reasoning. So what?



You've completely missed the point.

No, I just don't follow you in your lack of logic.



The folk religion has remained constant. The names of the supernatural agencies change occasionally, but the rites of the masses don't so much at all. My Irish ancestors 500 years ago prayed to 'St Brigit' for the same sort of things they prayed to Brigantia for a millenium earlier. The peasants of 2009 BC would probably recognise a great deal of what I'll be doing on the 25th of December this year.

The peasants of 2009 are a tiny minority of the population, unlike in (not so) remote times. People live in cities now. You should keep up with reality.




Is there any point to making such glib attacks on a culture you clearly do not understand

Man, if someone doesn't understand culture, it's you, with all the bullshit you say. I don't call your new age hippie new worldlish neo-pagan re-creation a "culture" anyway, okay?



Or do you have any serious argument to make?

Already made, but you took it for an attack. It all stated with me laughing at so-called "heathens" celebrating Christmas, that's all. I didn't know you were so sensitive and unsecure about things you clearly identify with.



You could argue that innovation in holiday celebrations is somehow illegitimate, you could argue that the historical record does not support continuity between the most ancient customs and the first mentioning of christmas trees and the like in the written historical record, or you could argue that you find it all too unconvincing for you, yourself, to toast the old gods but if others want to explore and develop that custom, fine.

Problem is, I don't care about religion. I was just laughing at... well, read above. :D



On the contrary. Acknowledgment of those ancestors from the intervening centuries is very much a reason to graciously combine our celebration of Yule with our kin's celebration of Christmas.

There no Christmas, there's even less yule. Just family gathering, pretext to exchange presents and to stuff your belly with sweet things.

I can't imagine you being serious when you'll say "O, [insert Germanic divinity], this sacrifice is for you", right? Or are you? :eek:




As for rejecting Christianity as foreign, the cult of Isis started in Egypt and then spread to Greece and on into Rome and most of the provinces of her empire. I obviously don't condemn those. I reject Christianity because it's bullshit and it sucks obviously.

Same reason as me, then. But if you reject a thing because it's "bullshit", why not rejecting re-constructed "heathenry" as well? Because it is also bullshit... and some.



You've never heard it called Yule/Jul?

No. Never been in Scandinavia.



Look North.

You're aware that it's Christmas that Scandinavians are celebrating under this name, right?

[Óttar]

Same reason as me, then. But if you reject a thing because it's "bullshit", why not rejecting re-constructed "heathenry" as well? Because it is also bullshit... and some.
What's bullshit about praying to an ancient deity in Latin and making offerings? Hellenism accomodated different ways of approaching the divine both in conception and in practice. The Christers reduced everything to a narrow, ascetic, strict "interpretation" (for lack of a better word).

[Mesrine]

What's bullshit about praying to an ancient deity in Latin and making offerings?

The bolded parts. No such thing as an "old deity" to hear to your prayers. Let's get fucking real.

[Jägerstaffel]

Sticking feathers up your butt does NOT make you a chicken, Frank.

Same goes for Christmas. Painting it in a Christian colour doesn't make it Christian.

[Mesrine]

Sticking feathers up your butt does NOT make you a chicken, Frank.

Same goes for Christmas. Painting it in a Christian colour doesn't make it Christian.

Painting this agnostic consumerist holiday (because that's what it is) as neo-pagan in your mind doesn't make it "heathen" either.

[Loddfafner]

People live in cities now. You should keep up with reality.


Many of us do not live in cities. And some of us that do live in cities have some regrets about the cost of deracination and so look for ways to symbolically maintain some link to the land and to the cycles of nature. In an anthropological sense, that improvised use of symbols is culture.

We have provincial urbanites in America. We call them New Yorkers. New Yorkers think that nothing outside the City matters, and if rural people face any problems, they should just move to the city instead of staying put and resolving them. New Yorkers also tend to assume that food sprouts automatically on supermarket shelves.

[Óttar]

Originally Posted by Al-Frankawi
The bolded parts. No such thing as an "old deity" to hear to your prayers. Let's get fucking real.

So you are recommending we all adopt Atheism then?

If pagans got their shit together, and generated enough funds we could build temples more grand than anything ever conceived, and develop a philosophy, liturgy, and theology more magnificent than anything ever seen, building upon the shoulders of the millions of texts, and ideas of the ancients.

The hippy bullshit would have to be weeded out first, but cults don't spread all over the world in a day.

Ancient paganism was an ocean, Christianity was a puddle of mud.

[Mesrine]

Many of us do not live in cities.

I was answering Osweo, who, just like me, lives in Western Europe. I imagine conditions are different in the USA.



So you are recommending we all adopt Atheism then?

Agnosticism would already be a good start. But even any monotheism is clearly superior to neo-paganism. I could still imagine some sort of god creating the universe, but imagining our lives, or the winds, governed by local deities, nooo fucking way. :D




Ancient paganism was an ocean, Christianity was a puddle of mud.

Reconstructed "heathenry" is a (very) little pile of dry new age crap.

[Óttar]

Reconstructed "heathenry" is a (very) little pile of new age crap.
Agreed for the most part. If Constantine had adopted Mithraism or Sol Invictus as the Imperial State Religion, I would not be complaining today.

The paganism of the Hellenistic period (in which I would include later pagan Rome) was Monistic and tolerant.

[Guapo]

Christmas is actually the month long ancient Slavic celebration to Veles and the badnjak(yule log), Santa with horns, the church's original image of Satan.

http://www.mythinglinks.org/Veles~RamHeadedMan~okladka1m.jpg

[The Lawspeaker]

In France, Spain and Italy it's not "Easter", but Pâques/Pascua/Pasqua (related to Hebrew "Pasch").
Likewise. It is "Pasen" in Dutch instead of German Ostern or English Eastern.
It is derived from Jewish Pesach.

[Loddfafner]

Reconstructed "heathenry" is a (very) little pile of dry new age crap.

A lot of new age crap as well as refried nazi occultism passes for heathenry but neither is necessary to it, and both are expendable. Healthy, rational heathenry is a viable position.

[Treffie]

Likewise. It is "Pasen" in Dutch instead of German Ostern or English Eastern.
It is derived from Jewish Pesach.

In Welsh, we refer to it as Pasg

[SwordoftheVistula]

Likewise. It is "Pasen" in Dutch instead of German Ostern or English Eastern.
It is derived from Jewish Pesach.


In Welsh, we refer to it as Pasg


Probably via French/latin rather than direct from hebrew I imagine? I've spotted French/latin words in both languages before.

[Scyldwulf]

What's with all this "neo-paganism" stuff?

Wether you call it Yuletide, Yulefest, Yules, Jul, Juletid, Julfest, Jül, Jól, Joul, Joulu, Jõulud, Joelfeest, Géol, Feailley Geul, Midwinter, or The Winter Solstice, it was initially a heathen winter festival celebrated predominantly by the Germanic peoples somewhere between the end of December and the beginning of January, as determined by the Germanic lunar calender. The festival is often related to the Wild Hunt, often refered to as Woden's Hunt in relation to the chief God... This was before Christianity ever laid its eyes on the north of Europe and butchered its custums... And even after that, the festival was still Yule untill the 11th century, and during the 17th century Yule was again revived.

To show disregard to the festival known as 'Christmas' (how it can ever be called that I do not know, with not a single person knowing the definitive date of the blokes birth...) would indeed be to show disregard to 1300 and something years worth of ancestors (It's more like 900 or less years, really)... But to show disregard to the festival known as Yuletide would be to show disregard to a far more substancial level of culture and tradition.

None the less, the Christian festival of Christmas has lost all (little) meaning it once had over here, and I'm sure the case can be said elsewhere - to abandon it however, and its many many customs, symbols and ideas borrowed from the ways of old that came before it, would be to abandon both culture, and identity... Not so much religion.

So come this Yuletide (Old English: geóla) I will share presents and happiness with my Christian kin, after all, the word Yule is the root of the modern English world 'jolly' ... Does that make me some 'new-age' mumbo-jumbo whatever you want to call it? No, I don't believe it does.

To the English, and perhaps to the rest of Northern Europe, Yuletide is much more than some modern new-age heeby-geeby.

My grandparents refer to what you call 'Christmas' as Yule to this very day.

[Anthropos]

Strictly speaking, there are no 'heathen roots' of Christmas. Christmas is a celebration of Jesus's birthday. There is only potential confusion in cases where the name of a heathen feast was adopted by Christianity as a name for Jesus's birthday celebration, and I know what I am talking about, since in Sweden that is exactly what happened.

[Scyldwulf]

Strictly speaking, there are no 'heathen roots' of Christmas. Christmas is a celebration of Jesus's birthday. Confusion arises only in cases where the name of a heathen feast was adopted by Christianity as a name for Jesus's birthday celebration, and I know what I am talking about, since in Sweden that is exactly what happened.

Perhaps there are no Heathen roots of the festival known as 'Christmas' in its fundamental ideology - but there are indeed many Heathen roots (particularly in the north) found in the traditions and customs that are synonymous with the Christian 'Christmas'.

Terribly sorry to be quoting Wiki, I know it isn't the best source in the world :laugh: but It's all I have to my disposal right now, I can't be bothered searching for anything more academic:

Christmas:

"Modern Christmas customs include: gift-giving and merrymaking from Roman Saturnalia; greenery, lights, and charity from the Roman New Year; and Yule logs and various foods from Germanic feasts.[18] Pagan Scandinavia celebrated a winter festival called Yule, held in the late December to early January period. As Northern Europe was the last part to Christianize, its pagan traditions had a major influence on Christmas. Scandinavians still call Christmas Jul. In English, the word Yule is synonymous with Christmas,[19]"

Yule:

"Yule or Yule-tide is a winter festival that was initially celebrated by the historical Germanic peoples as a pagan religious festival, though it was later absorbed into, and equated with, the Christian festival of Christmas."

Father Chritmas:

"Father Christmas typified the spirit of good cheer at Christmas, but was neither a gift bringer, nor particularly associated with children. The pre-modern representations of the gift-giver from church history namely Saint Nicholas, Sinterklaas and folklore, merged with the British character Father Christmas, to create the character known to Americans as Santa Claus. Like Santa Claus, Father Christmas has been identified with the old belief in Woden (Odin to the Norse)"

In 'Christmas', both the Heathen traditions of old, and the more modern Christian ideas blend.

"However, such pre-Christian activities proved hard to suppress, and several edicts were given that instruct missionaries to attempt to absorb earlier traditions into Christianity so as to distract people from their pre-Christian gods."

[Anthropos]

Scyldwulf, it doesn't matter how academic you get, because the question at hand is very simple. If we should want to complicate things, then we could speak of precursory elements in primordial Tradition pointing towards Jesus, but that is something completely different from what you are talking about.

'Heathen roots of Christmas' is nothing but a misunderstanding. The heathen elements referred to are preserved thanks to Christian Tradition. 'Heathen yule' exists today only as a neopagan and antitraditional phenomenon.

[Scyldwulf]

'Heathen roots of Christmas' is nothing but a misunderstanding. The heathen elements referred to are preserved thanks to Christian Tradition. 'Heathen yule' exists today only as a neopagan and antitraditional phenomenon.

To say the 'Heathen roots of Christmas' is nothing but a misunderstanding, and then to state that the Heathen elements 'preserved' in Christian tradition are indeed existant - is a contradiction. Unless you are implying that an 'entirely Heathen Yuletide' would be nothing more than a misunderstanding, I'm not entirely sure where you're are coming from, and if that is indeed what you are implying, then I'm not sure I see the relevance - as I didn't so much as hint at Yule being an entirely Heathen festival since the arrival of Christianity.

I disagree in the Heathen elements of Yule being an anti-traditional phenomenon, as the ancient traditions of Yule have been carried always through the Christian festival that took Its place. They have always been there, and so for a non-Christian person to be attracted to the pre-Christian elements of Yule - I see nothing but a reconnection with traditions of pre-Christianity, in compliment with the traditions of Christianity - they work side by side, hand in hand, and no harm is done. Both elements are traditional.

[Loddfafner]

Strictly speaking, there are no 'heathen roots' of Christmas. Christmas is a celebration of Jesus's birthday. There is only potential confusion in cases where the name of a heathen feast was adopted by Christianity as a name for Jesus's birthday celebration, and I know what I am talking about, since in Sweden that is exactly what happened.

Then how do you explain your Yule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule_Goat) goat?


The Yule Goat is one of the oldest Scandinavian and Northern European Yule and Christmas symbols and traditions. Yule Goat originally denoted the goat that was slaughtered around Yule, but it may also indicate a goat figure made out of straw. It is also used about the custom of going door-to-door singing carols and getting food and drinks in return, often fruit, cakes and sweets. "Going Yule Goat" is similar to the British custom wassailing, both with heathen roots.
...
Its origins might go as far back as to pre-Christian days, where goats were connected to the Norse god Thor, who rode the sky in a chariot drawn by two goats, Tanngrisnir and Tanngnjóstr, and carried his hammer Mjolnir.

I get a kick out of picking up heathen items at Ikea.

[Thulsa Doom]

Strictly speaking, there are no 'heathen roots' of Christmas. Christmas is a celebration of Jesus's birthday. There is only potential confusion in cases where the name of a heathen feast was adopted by Christianity as a name for Jesus's birthday celebration, and I know what I am talking about, since in Sweden that is exactly what happened.

Very strange comment.

In today´s Sweden very little about Jul has to do with Christ. Actually i´m sure that Jesus would have disapproved of the drinking, pig eating and materialistic orgy that is today´s traditional holiday.

The roots to Christmas (in the North) are likely even older than the Asa faith. Its has more to do with the traditional way of life and the cycle of the year.

[Anthropos]

To say the 'Heathen roots of Christmas' is nothing but a misunderstanding, and then to state that the Heathen elements 'preserved' in Christian tradition are indeed existant - is a contradiction.No it isn't, since those elements do not play a crucial part in tradition, but are altogether in the outer and in a trivial sense 'cultural', 'historical' and 'customary' applications of tradition. They were preserved by Christian tradition as a matter of fact, but the truth is that these applications have very little significance beyond a mere consumeristic sentimentality today. Most of the supposedly 'heathen elements' in contemporary Christmas celebrations have absolutely nothing whatever to do with tradition even. They were introduced by way of sentimental folkish 'revival' (sic).


I disagree in the Heathen elements of Yule being an anti-traditional phenomenon, as the ancient traditions of Yule have been carried always through the Christian festival that took Its place. They have always been there, and so for a non-Christian person to be attracted to the pre-Christian elements of Yule - I see nothing but a reconnection with traditions of pre-Christianity, in compliment with the traditions of Christianity - they work side by side, hand in hand, and no harm is done. Both elements are traditional.There is only one rooted Tradition in Scandinavia, namely Christianity. The correct heading would be 'Pre-Christian elements in Christian Yule celebrations', or 'Pre-Christian elements in Christmas celebrations', or 'Heathen elements in Christmas celebrations', or 'Heathen elements in Christian Yule celebrations'. 'Yule' is nothing but the name of a Christian holiday these days. There is no 'heathen tradition' any longer, in which this event could figure.


Then how do you explain your Yule (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yule_Goat) goat?This is an excellent example, Loddfafner, and one that you should allow to teach you a lesson. This goat has no spiritual significance whatever today, and it is entirely in the realm of mere custom.




I get a kick out of picking up heathen items at Ikea.

:icon_lol: okay, good for you.

[Anthropos]

Very strange comment.

In today´s Sweden very little about Jul has to do with Christ.That is true, but that is so because most people are antitraditional. They don't follow tradition:


Actually i´m sure that Jesus would have disapproved of the drinking, pig eating and materialistic orgy that is today´s traditional holiday.I am sure that he wouldn't mind it, if people would only follow Tradition. :)


The roots to Christmas (in the North) are likely even older than the Asa faith. Its has more to do with the traditional way of life and the cycle of the year.

The only traditional cycle of the year that is rooted in Scandinavia is the Christian cycle of the year. There is no such thing as a 'heathen tradition', and there is also no pre-Christian tradition.

[Scyldwulf]

The only traditional cycle of the year that is rooted in Scandinavia is the Christian cycle of the year. There is no such thing as a 'heathen tradition', and there is also no pre-Christian tradition.

Haha :laugh:

The months of the year are based on the lunar cycle, with the Old English "mónaþ", Old Norse "mánaðr, and so on relating to the word 'moon'. The same can be said for their modern translations.
Janauary for example meaning Æftera Jéola (After Yule - Old English) or Jiuli... The same can be said for the other months, Eostur-mónaþ being the Old English form of April, meaning Easter Month in relation to the Godess 'Eostre'.

The Germanic peoples had their own names for the months, and the days of the week, most of which taking their etymology from Germanic Gods. In English, for example, Wednesday deriving from 'Wodensday' (Wōdnesdæg - day of Woden), Thursday from 'Thunnorsday' (Þunresdæg - day of Thunor) and so on.

All of these have Scandinavian equivalents, I am simply not Scandinavian and cannot elaborate to an adequite level.

Many many traditions, particularly in linguistics, are Heathen.

[Anthropos]

The only traditional cycle of the year that is rooted in Scandinavia is the Christian cycle of the year. There is no such thing as a 'heathen tradition', and there is also no pre-Christian tradition.Haha :laugh:

:biggrin:

Seriously, for people who live in reality, it is like I said. Any 'heathen tradition' is dead. We don't even know what they called it, save for 'seid', which means simply 'custom'.

For nutty historical revisionists, well... There are many of you here on The Apricity, so I will let you speak for yourselves.

[Scyldwulf]

Sorry mate, I posted that without finishing what I intended to say - I've edited it now If you want to have a read... Although you'll probably only deny its relevance anyway. :D

[Anthropos]

Haha :laugh:

The months of the year are based on the lunar cycle, with the Old English "mónaþ", Old Norse "mánaðr, and so on relating to the word 'moon'. The same can be said for their modern translations.
Janauary for example meaning Æftera Jéola (After Yule - Old English) or Jiuli... The same can be said for the other months, Eostur-mónaþ being the Old English form of April, meaning Easter Month in relation to the Godess 'Eostre'.

The Germanic peoples had their own names for the months, and the days of the week, most of which taking their etymology from Germanic Gods. In English, for example, Wednesday deriving from 'Wodensday' (I can't remember the old English equivalent :p), Thursday from 'Thunnorsday' and so on.

All of these have Scandinavian equivalents, I am simply not Scandinavian and cannot elaborate to an adequite level.

Many many traditions, particularly in linguistics, are Heathen.

So in your opinion, there are 'traditions' that jumped out of the practical reality of people's lives into the nearsighted modern sciences, such as lingustics (which, taken for what it is, is a science, but nothing to play too much on, lest it should become a silly thing), from which they jumped back transformed and with an entirely different (and reduced even) meaning into the reality of people's lives.

What you are saying is bollocks, and it has nothing to do with tradition.

[Scyldwulf]

Perhaps linguistics was the wrong term, and 'naming-things' could have been used instead. :rolleyes:

Your analysis of what I had said is ill constructed and doesn't make much sense. All I set out to do with that post is prove or atleast elaborate on the fact that there was indeed a traditional year cycle that had existed in both Scandinavia and the rest of Europe prior the coming of a desert God... Which I am absolutely shocked you deny.

If what you say refers to my understanding of the progression of language over centuries, then I am well aware that things change and develop - none the less, the meaning is not lost. Wednesdays etymology is still Woden's day, and Woden's day was of course named after Woden, for example. With that simple fact, it is clear that traditions from the pre-Christian era have lived on to this day.

[Loddfafner]

Any 'heathen tradition' is dead.

The heathen elements of tradition may be dead for you. They are very much alive for me (and I am not alone in this), while it is the narrowly Christian tradition that is dead for me. It is a fallacy to treat arguments that traditions were only invented in the nineteenth century (http://www.amazon.com/Invention-Tradition-Canto-Eric-Hobsbawm/dp/0521437733) as evidence of their triviality. They were re-imagined (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagined_communities) and given new life. The old gods were hidden in plain sight, so not all was lost. We have something to build on as we re-imagine our traditions yet again.

[Anthropos]

Scydwulf and Loddfafner:

Neither of you understand the difference between tradition and custom. There is no reason why I should continue to debate with you, when even the fundamentals of the discussion pass you by completely unnoticed. Please continue imagining things now. And this linking of things that are irrelevant is nothing but childish, Loddfafner.


They were re-imagined (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagined_communities) and given new life. The old gods were hidden in plain sight, so not all was lost. We have something to build on as we re-imagine our traditions yet again.

[Loddfafner]

Scydwulf and Loddfafner:

Neither of you understand the difference between tradition and custom. There is no reason why I should continue to debate with you, when even the fundamentals of the discussion pass you by completely unnoticed. Please continue imagining things now. And this linking of things that are irrelevant is nothing but childish, Loddfafner.

I linked to some key references for the benefit of anyone interested in exploring the broader questions here. If that is childish, then I am proud to be a child. As for the distinction between tradition and custom, if you are referring to tradition in the Evolian sense, then I reject that perspective as essentialist.

[Scyldwulf]

Scydwulf and Loddfafner:

Neither of you understand the difference between tradition and custom. There is no reason why I should continue to debate with you, when even the fundamentals of the discussion pass you by completely unnoticed. Please continue imagining things now. And this linking of things that are irrelevant is nothing but childish, Loddfafner.

I assume by that you are refering to the traditions of Christianity being passed down from generation to generation since its coming - and the traditions of Heathenism having stopped their passage since Christianity arrived here, due to supression and conversion.

But what you fail to aknowledge is that much of the Christian calender is set upon the foundations of the Heathenism that came before it. Many of its traditions, in England atleast, are adaptations of the old traditions before it. Particularly in relation to Yuletide.

Please continue denying the existance of anything relevant having existed prior to Christianity now...

[Anthropos]

I assume by that you are refering to the traditions of Christianity being passed down from generation to generation since its coming - and the traditions of Heathenism having stopped their passage since Christianity arrived here, due to supression and conversion.

But what you fail to aknowledge is that much of the Christian calender is set upon the foundations of the Heathenism that came before it. Many of its traditions, in England atleast, are adaptations of the old traditions before it. Particularly in relation to Yuletide.

Please continue denying the existance of anything relevant having existed prior to Christianity now...

You didn't even understand anything I said. Even if you think that's what I said, nowhere did I deny that something important existed prior to Christianity. Go back, read again, look up the terms you don't understand, whatever...:confused:

[Anthropos]

I linked to some key references for the benefit of anyone interested in exploring the broader questions here. If that is childish, then I am proud to be a child. As for the distinction between tradition and custom, if you are referring to tradition in the Evolian sense, then I reject that perspective as essentialist.

Of course, since anything essential is mere fiction to you and since tradition is nothing but imagined (by individuals or by a race; it's much the same thing), again according to you. It's no surprise that you don't understand the difference between custom and tradition then. You could just as well turn to René Guénon instead of to Evola, by the way. If our contemporary so-called 'intellectuals' had any insight into tradition, this distinction would have been all over the place, but since most people haven't, even the most fundamental distinctions and rudimentary insights into tradition are rather uncommon. Nevertheless, you will still find atheists who understand it now and then.

[Brynhild]

While you lot celebrate Christmas/Yule/ whatever else your traditions allow you to do, we're sweltering under a hot Aussie sun and watch the dying Sun of the Solstice. Safe journeys Sunna.

[Kadu]

Reconstructed "heathenry" is a (very) little pile of dry new age crap.


Well i don't know if it's crap, but it's weird to say the least since there is no substancial cultural background to support it and it's clear that heathens have for the most part if not all a cultural Christian background.
But it doesn't surprise me as the world today is highly globalised and multiculturalised and therefore very prone to the artificial revival of such alien, lost and forgotten beliefs.

[Óttar]

forgotten beliefs.
Beliefs that are one million times more edifying then the crap taught by Christianity. The ancient religion of Greece and Rome was great, and if it had survived, the world would be a MUCH better place.

[Kadu]

Beliefs that are one million times more edifying then the crap taught by Christianity. The ancient religion of Greece and Rome was great, and if it had survived, the world would be a MUCH better place.

Well i tend to dissociate Church from Religion and i agree that without the first one the world would be definitely a better place, the church is an instrument of exploitation that has been asphyxiating Mankind for the last two thousand years.
As for the second one i can't deny that Western values are intrinsic to Christianity, even Humanism and Secularism have its roots in many Christian principles.

[Óttar]

even Humanism and Secularism have its roots in many Christian principles.
That may be so, but I think we were doing just fine with Hellenismos and Romanitas.

[Psychonaut]

Well i don't know if it's crap, but it's weird to say the least since there is no substancial cultural background to support it and it's clear that heathens have for the most part if not all a cultural Christian background.



I love it when those hardly acquainted with Heathenry make such bold and broadly sweeping pronouncements about both its adherents and the culture surrounding it. Thank you for providing an opinion that is obviously grounded in an understanding of what Heathenry is and who we, as Heathens, are.

[Ulf]

In my Pantheon, Pan still reigns in his pristine glory, with his ruddy face, his flowing beard, and his shaggy body, his pipe and his crook, his nymph Echo, and his chosen daughter Iambe; for the great god Pan is not dead, as was rumored. No god ever dies.


To some extent, mythology is only the most ancient history and biography. So far from being false or fabulous in the common sense, it contains only enduring and essential truth...

HDT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_David_Thoreau)

[SwordoftheVistula]

The only traditional cycle of the year that is rooted in Scandinavia is the Christian cycle of the year. There is no such thing as a 'heathen tradition', and there is also no pre-Christian tradition.

Then why is your Christmas celebration different from other Christian societies, such as those in Ethiopia and Egyptian Copts?

[Anthropos]

Then why is your Christmas celebration different from other Christian societies, such as those in Ethiopia and Egyptian Copts?

I have already taken that into account in my posts.

[Kadu]

I love it when those hardly acquainted with Heathenry make such bold and broadly sweeping pronouncements about both its adherents and the culture surrounding it. Thank you for providing an opinion that is obviously grounded in an understanding of what Heathenry is and who we, as Heathens, are.



So tell me, don't you come from a cultural Christian background.? What about your parents or grandparents?

[Scyldwulf]

Well i don't know if it's crap, but it's weird to say the least since there is no substancial cultural background to support it and it's clear that heathens have for the most part if not all a cultural Christian background.
But it doesn't surprise me as the world today is highly globalised and multiculturalised and therefore very prone to the artificial revival of such alien, lost and forgotten beliefs.

The heathenism of the Vikings and before that the early Anglo-Saxons (other peoples too, but they are the two relevant to the place I call home) has left deep and profound impressions on northern European culture - they may have adapted and developed, yet the foundations are a heathen one. There are rune stones standing all over Sweden and Norway, Viking boat museums, the Sutton Hoo burial ship in England, and many many more heathen associated cultural artifacts: would you say they're culturally irrelevant? Of course not, unless you're pig ignorant - which I would hope you're not.

Abit late coming into this now, so I'm not going to dwell on it.
I was raised to make my own decision on the world around me, by atheist parents and Christian grandparents who keep their faith only to themselves... I am by no means 'culturally Christian'.

I would agree that Heathenism is both lost and forgotten in relation to the wider world (unfortunately) but I would disagree in saying It's 'alien'.
Heathenry is native to the people of northern Europe, Christianity is the alien that has indeed pushed itself entirely into our world - yes, it is now the culturaly accepted 'norm' and has became something 'normal' yet its foundations are very alien - it came to us from the other side of the world through missionaries. Heathenism is our own, something the people who lived here for thousands and thousands of years had developed on their own two feet - it is not at all 'alien'.

[Psychonaut]

So tell me, don't you come from a cultural Christian background.? What about your parents or grandparents?

No, I come from a thoroughly Pagan culture that's covered with a thin Christian veneer (something we Acadians have always been accused of by the Anglos)—a situation that I've heard is not at all uncommon in Northern Europe.

[Fred]

No the truth is, that the heathen roots are only buttressed in legitimacy by Jewish approval, in the Christian form. ;)

[Osweo]

There are rune stones standing all over Sweden and Norway,
WHat?!?! Why look so far afield? Northern England is far from lacking in runic artefacts! There is a runic inscription at Lancaster, even, as well as at Urswick, over the Sands. And Heathen motifs are included on the chruchyard cross at Halton, and a gravestone at Heysham, both depicting scenes from the Sigurd legend! And this is just our county, the rest of the North has far more. :thumbs up

Just a short way over in Cumberland, Gosforth has the entire Ragnarok story carved on a cross, with a stone panel on full view INSIDE the church of THOR fishing for the World Serpent!!!

I was raised to make my own decision on the world around me, by atheist parents and Christian grandparents who keep their faith only to themselves... I am by no means 'culturally Christian'.
I even had a grandmother who openly ridiculed Jesus to me. The Grandfathers were just irreligious, and the other grandmother is a fanatical Catholic. So I beat you there! :swl

[Fred]

The heathenism of the Vikings and before that the early Anglo-Saxons (other peoples too, but they are the two relevant to the place I call home) has left deep and profound impressions on northern European culture - they may have adapted and developed, yet the foundations are a heathen one. There are rune stones standing all over Sweden and Norway, Viking boat museums, the Sutton Hoo burial ship in England, and many many more heathen associated cultural artifacts: would you say they're culturally irrelevant? Of course not, unless you're pig ignorant - which I would hope you're not.

Abit late coming into this now, so I'm not going to dwell on it.
I was raised to make my own decision on the world around me, by atheist parents and Christian grandparents who keep their faith only to themselves... I am by no means 'culturally Christian'.

I would agree that Heathenism is both lost and forgotten in relation to the wider world (unfortunately) but I would disagree in saying It's 'alien'.
Heathenry is native to the people of northern Europe, Christianity is the alien that has indeed pushed itself entirely into our world - yes, it is now the culturaly accepted 'norm' and has became something 'normal' yet its foundations are very alien - it came to us from the other side of the world through missionaries. Heathenism is our own, something the people who lived here for thousands and thousands of years had developed on their own two feet - it is not at all 'alien'.Christianity is not alien to us, for we formed it ourselves. Christianity is the Gentile expression of the original belief of mankind and Heathenry is a vulgar spin-off of The Original Faith. There is a reason why many have equated "white" with "Christian". I'm "sorry", but I support the Crusades over the pillaging of monasteries.:cool:

[Scyldwulf]

WHat?!?! Why look so far afield? Northern England is far from lacking in runic artefacts! There is a runic inscription at Lancaster, even, as well as at Urswick, over the Sands. And Heathen motifs are included on the chruchyard cross at Halton, and a gravestone at Heysham, both depicting scenes from the Sigurd legend! And this is just our county, the rest of the North has far more. :thumbs up

I even had a grandmother who openly ridiculed Jesus to me. The Grandfathers were just irreligious, and the other grandmother is a fanatical Catholic. So I beat you there! :swl

:eusa_doh: I didn't even think of thinking closer to home! :biggrin: I was thinking of the Ledberg stone, Stenkvista, Lingsberg and so on. I never at all thought any of that, and I've been to the Halton-with-Aughton Viking cross - can't remember why we where up there, mind :laugh:

And haah :D

[Aemma]

Christianity is not alien to us, for we formed it ourselves. Christianity is the Gentile expression of the original belief of mankind and Heathenry is a vulgar spin-off of The Original Faith. There is a reason why many have equated "white" with "Christian". I'm "sorry", but I support the Crusades over the pillaging of monasteries.:cool:

I do believe you have that backwards though O.F.: Heathenry is definitely not a spin-off of Christianity. It was (is) the indigenous way of the Northern Europeans long before the Roman Church made its way there. And to call Christianity the "original belief of mankind" is a tad much though, don't you think? There are many more spiritual traditions around the world that have a longer history than does Christianity. :)

[Fred]

I do believe you have that backwards though O.F.: Heathenry is definitely not a spin-off of Christianity. It was (is) the indigenous way of the Northern Europeans long before the Roman Church made its way there. And to call Christianity the "original belief of mankind" is a tad much though, don;t you think. There are many more spiritual traditions around the world that have a longer history than does Christianity. :)No, I meant to state that Heathenry is a splinter of the Original Faith and that Christianity is a return to those values, in an explictly Gentile interpretation and community, rather than Jewish legitimist. Heathenry or paganism, is the expression of mankind as he has moved away from Eden and fallen from grace. Christianity is the Gentiles remembering God and casting aside idolatry, while also providing for fellow men.

[Scyldwulf]

I do believe you have that backwards though O.F.: Heathenry is definitely not a spin-off of Christianity. It was (is) the indigenous way of the Northern Europeans long before the Roman Church made its way there. And to call Christianity the "original belief of mankind" is a tad much though, don;t you think. There are many more spiritual traditions around the world that have a longer history than does Christianity. :)

I thought he was just kidding, trying to provoke :laugh:
But if not, that's pretty much what I'd have said :)

[Psychonaut]

Christianity is not alien to us, for we formed it ourselves. Christianity is the Gentile expression of the original belief of mankind and Heathenry is a vulgar spin-off of The Original Faith. There is a reason why many have equated "white" with "Christian". I'm "sorry", but I support the Crusades over the pillaging of monasteries.:cool:

Ahistorical nonsense.

[Baron Samedi]

So you are recommending we all adopt Atheism then?

If pagans got their shit together, and generated enough funds we could build temples more grand than anything ever conceived, and develop a philosophy, liturgy, and theology more magnificent than anything ever seen, building upon the shoulders of the millions of texts, and ideas of the ancients.

The hippy bullshit would have to be weeded out first, but cults don't spread all over the world in a day.

Ancient paganism was an ocean, Christianity was a puddle of mud.

I don't know, that Ocean is pretty much dried out....

That puddle of mud fucked your world up pretty hardcore, if you ask me.

[Psychonaut]

I don't know, that Ocean is pretty much dried out....

That puddle of mud fucked your world up pretty hardcore, if you ask me.

That it did. Thankfully the damage was not irreparable. The fact that there are now families which include three generations of Heathens is a testament to the vibrancy of the reawakening.

[Fred]

I thought he was just kidding, trying to provoke :laugh:
But if not, that's pretty much what I'd have said :)It is standard Christian belief.


Ahistorical nonsense.What is "ahistorical nonsense"?


I don't know, that Ocean is pretty much dried out....

That puddle of mud fucked your world up pretty hardcore, if you ask me.Yes, how dynamic that sounds...


That it did. Thankfully the damage was not irreparable. The fact that there are now families which include three generations of Heathens is a testament to the vibrancy of the reawakening.More and more idolatrous, decadent West. You'd have to note how Christians find some commonality with Muslims then, even though Heathens support Islam against Israel.:rolleyes2:

[Psychonaut]

What is "ahistorical nonsense"?

Just what it sounds like—nonsense that has no grounding in history.


even though Heathens support Islam against Israel.:rolleyes2:

More nonsense. Few, if any, Heathens are supportive of Islam, most of us are equal opportunity anti-Abrahamic in our thought.

[Scyldwulf]

It is standard Christian belief.
Alot of standard Christian belief is mumbo-jumbo.


What is "ahistorical nonsense"
He likely meant "A historical"


Yes, how dynamic that sounds...
How mature that sounds.


More and more idolatrous, decadent West. You'd have to note how Christians find some commonality with Muslims then, even though Heathens support Islam against Israel.:rolleyes2:
Heathenism is individualistic in many ways. Opinions differ.

[Anthropos]

Ahistorical nonsense.


No, I come from a thoroughly Pagan culture that's covered with a thin Christian veneer (something we Acadians have always been accused of by the Anglos)—a situation that I've heard is not at all uncommon in Northern Europe.

Is there any particular reason why you bring up arguments, and such utterly poor ones at that, when the question concerns your (cultural) heritage (Acadian, I presume) and nothing else? Is there any particular reason also for this vague manner of phrase? You are only fooling those who want to be fooled.

[Psychonaut]

He likely meant "A historical"

Nope, ahistorical (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ahistorical): "not historical, lacking in historical background or justification" :)


Is there any particular reason why you bring up arguments, and such utterly poor ones at that, when the question concerns your (cultural) heritage (Acadian, I presume) and nothing else? Is there any particular reason also for this vague manner of phrase? You are only fooling those who want to be fooled.

I suppose your judgment of it as a "poor" argument is a matter of opinion. There's a vast body of secondary literature available to anyone with access to a university library that delineates in detail just how pre-Christian most "Christian" festivals really are. There's a damn good reason that European Christianity is practiced in a vastly different manner than Middle Eastern Christianity—the Heathen base was never truly uprooted, only paved over.

[Fred]

Just what it sounds like—nonsense that has no grounding in history.



More nonsense. Few, if any, Heathens are supportive of Islam, most of us are equal opportunity anti-Abrahamic in our thought.Well, explanation or elaboration could earn more respect for the former and a stance against David Duke would also earn respect for the latter.


Alot of standard Christian belief is mumbo-jumbo.


He likely meant "A historical"


How mature that sounds.


Heathenism is individualistic in many ways. Opinions differ."Mumbo-jumbo" is hardly a way to describe something intelligently. If you have something against Aristotle and Plato, then define what is wrong about them. Oh, that's right...they aren't "Abrahamic", as if Abraham is the worst person to have ever lived, you know? As to the rest, you can explain those or be cryptic and expect others to call you wise for it.

[Scyldwulf]

Nope, ahistorical (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ahistorical): "not historical, lacking in historical background or justification" :)

I had actually debated it meaning something akin to that, but with the poster being nitpicky I had assumed it was a typing error :p

[Fred]

Is there any particular reason why you bring up arguments, and such utterly poor ones at that, when the question concerns your (cultural) heritage (Acadian, I presume) and nothing else? Is there any particular reason also for this vague manner of phrase? You are only fooling those who want to be fooled.I'm waiting for some philosophical truth from them I haven't heard or seen before.:rolleyes2:


Nope, ahistorical (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/ahistorical): "not historical, lacking in historical background or justification" :)Christianity is equal parts Greek philosophy and Jewish fidelity.:thumbs up

[Aemma]

It is standard Christian belief.

What is "ahistorical nonsense"?

Yes, how dynamic that sounds...

More and more idolatrous, decadent West. You'd have to note how Christians find some commonality with Muslims then, even though Heathens support Islam against Israel.:rolleyes2:

Certainly a gross misconception and as erroneous a statement as one can ever make there O.F. People in general will support or not support any Zionist agenda as they see fit and as it fits into their own political views and understanding of the world. To say outright that "Heathens support Islam against Israel" is absolute nonsense and I think you know this already.

[Scyldwulf]

"Mumbo-jumbo" is hardly a way to describe something intelligently. If you have something against Aristotle and Plato, then define what is wrong about them. Oh, that's right...they aren't "Abrahamic", as if Abraham is the worst person to have ever lived, you know? As to the rest, you can explain those or be cryptic and expect others to call you wise for it.

I see. We're not to criticise Christianity, yet critising Heathenism is fine and dandy. Appearing intelligent was not my intention, my intention was to portray an opinion - my opinion of biblical Christianity and its many contradictions. I had not even thought about Aristotle, nor Plato, nor Abraham - nor any single individual - simply my opinion of the Christian faith.

[Fred]

Certainly a gross misconception and as erroneous a statement as one can ever make there O.F. People in general will support or not support any Zionist agenda as they see fit and as it fits into their own political views and understanding of the world. To say outright that "Heathens support Islam against Israel" is absolute nonsense and I think you know this already.I was explaining how it's not all black and white.:)

[Fred]

I see. We're not to criticise Christianity, yet critising Heathenism is fine and dandy. Appearing intelligent was not my intention, my intention was to portray an opinion - my opinion of biblical Christianity and its many contradictions. I had not even thought about Aristotle, nor Plato, nor Abraham - nor any single individual - simply my opinion of the Christian faith.I am always open to debate, but you apparently believe that when you say something, we're immediately impressed at how insultingly ignorant of Christianity you are. Perhaps you can back up what you yourself state, or not hold it onto a pedestal of self-righteousness.:rolleyes:

[Psychonaut]

I am always open to debate, but you apparently believe that when you say something, we're immediately impressed at how insultingly ignorant of Christianity you are. Perhaps you can back up what you yourself state, or not hold it onto a pedestal of self-righteousness.:rolleyes:

Debating Christianity in and of itself will take place in the Christianity sub-forum. This thread pertains to the Heathen roots of Christmas.

[Fred]

I suppose your judgment of it as a "poor" argument is a matter of opinion. There's a vast body of secondary literature available to anyone with access to a university library that delineates in detail just how pre-Christian most "Christian" festivals really are. There's a damn good reason that European Christianity is practiced in a vastly different manner than Middle Eastern Christianity—the Heathen base was never truly uprooted, only paved over.Heathen roots are only a testament to how far humanity has fallen from Paradise.:eek::confused:


Debating Christianity in and of itself will take place in the Christianity sub-forum. This thread pertains to the Heathen roots of Christmas.Aristotle and Plato are officially supported by Christendom and they are pagan. While this thread certainly did get off topic, that does not negate the fact that Christianity is not incompatible with other traditions. Wow, is that a shock or what? What has anybody done here, but serve to call Christianity an usurper?

Who cries over the fact that Saturnalia and Christmas have a lot in common? Rejoice at common culture!

[Scyldwulf]

I am always open to debate, but you apparently believe that when you say something, we're immediately impressed at how insultingly ignorant of Christianity you are. Perhaps you can back up what you yourself state, or not hold it onto a pedestal of self-righteousness.:rolleyes:

I too am open to debate, and I'm also quite dismayed that you see me as being ignorant of Christianity, for that is a self-righteous comment to make. I havn't made any statement in regard to your opinions, posts nor anything else with intentional spite, nor have I intended to display a spite for Christianity.

I'm not going to filter my way through the net for whatever length of time in order to find biblical quotes and passages that support my opinion, for my opinion is my opinion and I don't believe I should have to justify it, particularly in a thread in which Heathenry has been shown such blatant distaste towards without any justification from the very first post.

You can take that in whatever way you will, I don't mind.

[Psychonaut]

Heathen roots are only a testament to how far humanity has fallen from Paradise.:eek::confused:

Do keep these disparaging proselytic remarks out of the Heathenry Portal as well. Preach elsewhere.

[Scyldwulf]

Who cries over the fact that Saturnalia and Christmas have a lot in common? Rejoice at common culture!

The original poster and supporters of there after.
This whole thread has centered around Heathens defending their claim to common culture, and Christians or others denying them of it.

[Anthropos]

I suppose your judgment of it as a "poor" argument is a matter of opinion. There's a vast body of secondary literature available to anyone with access to a university library that delineates in detail just how pre-Christian most "Christian" festivals really are. There's a damn good reason that European Christianity is practiced in a vastly different manner than Middle Eastern Christianity—the Heathen base was never truly uprooted, only paved over.

First of all, what Anglos accused Acadians of is just a secondary opinion, and for you to refer to that when asked what your own (Acadian) heritage is, strikes me as rather excentric. Also, any reference of what you have heard is the case in the North of Europe should have nothing at all to do with it.

Second, the perspective of those books in the university library (and indeed in many a beaten flea-market as well) have absolutely nothing to do with tradition. Christian tradition is not something that was constructed by airhead scientists from the so-called 'Enlightenment' onwards.

Third, precursory events pointing toward the incarnation, toward Jesus, are not contested by Christians, and they were not already at the time of the Church Fathers in the Old Church. Several of them were in fact pagans who converted to Christianity, and who had a little something to say about this question. For example, they did not deny that the pagan culture they came from had some merits, but they were at the same time overwhelmed by the infinitely deeper significance of Christianity.

Fourth, within Orthodoxy, Christianity is practised in much the same way whether in Jerusalem or in Northern Europe.

Fifth, concerning this:


the Heathen base was never truly uprooted, only paved over.

It is true that Christianity did not obliviate every single trace of 'heathenry'. Hence you can play with them. :icon_lol: I have nothing to object to it. It is your choice. But what you are doing has nothing to do with any 'heathen tradition'.

[Fred]

Do keep these disparaging proselytic remarks out of the Heathenry Portal as well. Preach elsewhere.No preaching. It only illustrates the extent with which Christmas has Heathen traditions fused into it, as Heathenry comes from the original religion which Christianity claims to represent, only of lesser importance between them.


I too am open to debate, and I'm also quite dismayed that you see me as being ignorant of Christianity, for that is a self-righteous comment to make. I havn't made any statement in regard to your opinions, posts nor anything else with intentional spite, nor have I intended to display a spite for Christianity.

I'm not going to filter my way through the net for whatever length of time in order to find biblical quotes and passages that support my opinion, for my opinion is my opinion and I don't believe I should have to justify it, particularly in a thread in which Heathenry has been shown such blatant distaste towards without any justification from the very first post.

You can take that in whatever way you will, I don't mind.How am I ignorant of Christianity for being conventional and traditional, apologetic in my approach? If you want to make eccentric statements, why act surprised that one may question the logic behind them? In any case, the vitriol coming from Psychonaut ought more to be explained, per Anthropos's position, which I support. I definitely hope you all listen to what he has to say. He is an original thinker and not given to bandwagon fixations, such as the ownership of Christmas or Yule.


The original poster and supporters of there after.
This whole thread has centered around Heathens defending their claim to common culture, and Christians or others denying them of it.I am hardly denying anything, only affirming commonality, whilst appending the original religion's roots of it, with Heathenry as "johnny-come-lately" in the mix. The worship of God before man is historical, but the worship of man before God is not. Therefore, heathen traditions are abberations. That leads to the origin of Christmas and the cyclic interpretations we seem to be mulling over.

[Psychonaut]

First of all, what Anglo's accused Acadians of is just a secondary opinion, and for you to refer to that when asked what your own (Acadian) heritage is, strikes me as rather excentric. Also, any reference of what you have heard is the case in the North of Europe should have nothing at all to do with it.

I was referring to the specific manner in which we celebrate our holidays (Easter and Christmas in particular), none of which has anything to do with Jesus, and is much closer to accounts of pre-Christian festivities than to any of the Middle Eastern variants of Christianity.


Second, the perspective of those books in the university library (and indeed in many a beaten flea-market as well) have absolutely nothing to do with tradition. Christian tradition is not something that was constructed by airhead scientists from the so-called 'Enlightenment' onwards.

I see. Scholarship doesn't matter...only some form of Traditionalism whose alleged origins fly in the face of scholarly texts on religious history.

[Brynhild]

You know what? I'm beginning to become sick and tired of the way these God botherers have to constantly justify the importance of Christianity. There is more than sufficient historical and archaeological evidence which supports Paganism/Heathenry as having been a nature religion long before the advent of the Romans.

For the record, I was raised as a RC, but I have always known of my Heathen roots. I don't really give a toss whether anyone tells me that what I believe in is wrong. I write them off as ignorant. I always do what makes me happy in the long run, and no God botherer will ever tell me otherwise!

[Scyldwulf]

How am I ignorant of Christianity for being conventional and traditional, apologetic in my approach? If you want to make eccentric statements, why act surprised that one may question the logic behind them? In any case, the vitriol coming from Psychonaut ought more to be explained, per Anthropo's position, which I support. I definitely hope you all listen to what he has to say. He is an original thinker and not given to bandwagon fixations, such as the ownership of Christmas or Yule.

I am hardly denying anything, only affirming commonality, whilst appending the original religion's roots of it, with Heathenry as "johnny-come-lately" in the mix. The worship of God before man is historical, but the worship of man before God is not. Therefore, heathen traditions are abberations. That leads to the origin of Christmas and the cyclic interpretations we seem to be mulling over.

I didn't say you're ignorant of Christianity. I said I show dismay at the fact you see me as ignorant of Christianity. The 'ownership' of Christmas or Yule has only came into discussion because of what can only be seen as a troll post and the Heathen community of this forum defending themselves.

I wouldn't say Heathenry is Johnny-come-lately with it clearly having its roots in the pre-Christian era, lasting untill the 10th century, and meeting revival in the 19th century... Christianity may have became more firmly grounded in European culture, but in relation to the polytheistic faiths that came before it, it is Christianity that is Johnny-come-lately.

[Anthropos]

I was referring to the specific manner in which we celebrate our holidays (Easter and Christmas in particular), none of which has anything to do with Jesus, and is much closer to accounts of pre-Christian festivities than to any of the Middle Eastern variants of Christianity.Tell me about it then, if you feel like it, but there is still no 'heathen tradition' in existence in the manner that you contend. (Whether you actually used that expression or not matters little; it was brought up earlier in the debate, and you argue by the same means as those who defended it then.)




I see. Scholarship doesn't matter...only some form of Traditionalism whose alleged origins fly in the face of scholarly texts on religious history.

I didn't say that. But if you take their interpretations and conclusions for dogma, then you have misunderstood the nature of scholarship. If you really want to know what tradition is, you must ask tradition about it where it is in excistence.

[Scyldwulf]

I havn't had a look at the Christian sub-forum yet, does it come under such scrutiny from Heathens? Somehow I doubt it...


EDIT: This isn't in direct relation to anyones post...

[Osweo]

WHat?!?! Why look so far afield? Northern England is far from lacking in runic artefacts! There is a runic inscription at Lancaster, even, as well as at Urswick, over the Sands. And Heathen motifs are included on the chruchyard cross at Halton, and a gravestone at Heysham, both depicting scenes from the Sigurd legend! And this is just our county, the rest of the North has far more. :thumbs up
Details were requested in rep comments, so I give a link to the Victoria County History of Lancashire. THere are photos there of some of the relevant artefacts.

http://www.archive.org/details/victoriahistoryo01farruoft
I downloaded the pdf. It's old, but a very good read.

Just a short way over in Cumberland, Gosforth has the entire Ragnarok story carved on a cross, with a stone panel on full view INSIDE the church of THOR fishing for the World Serpent!!!
Unfortunately, the relevant first volume of the Cumberland edition eludes me... :cry2 If anyone's seen it, do let me know.

But Gosforth is famous enough, it'll be on the net...


Christian tradition is not something that was constructed by airhead scientists from the so-called 'Enlightenment' onwards.
Rather worrying to see Christians so damning of the Enlightenment, as though you want to fling us all back into the darkness again. :eek:

It seems 'Odhvidh' is already there though, with his literalist readings of genesis... As though monotheism were the original state!!! That men can talk so in the 21st Century scares the shit out of me, it honestly does. :(

[Anthropos]

I havn't had a look at the Christian sub-forum yet, does it come under such scrutiny from Heathens? Somehow I doubt it...I wouldn't want to disturb, normally I mean. But the answer is really in the title of the thread: "The Heathen Roots of Christmas [split from Christmas Presents]". And I do believe that this thread was split from that thread with a post by someone who objected to the heathen intrusion. I didn't make a fuss about that, but since you mentioned it, I might as well remind you.



You know what? I'm beginning to become sick and tired of the way these God botherers have to constantly justify the importance of Christianity.I don't want to bother anyone. I approach the discussion as if it was a historical discussion about tradition. But in order to attain any understanding of what tradition is, to begin with - and that is essential - one must allow room for it, and not tear it apart and glue it together arbitrarily.


There is more than sufficient historical and archaeological evidence which supports Paganism/Heathenry as having been a nature religion long before the advent of the Romans.Yes. But such evidence does not go to make a tradition. If it is taken in by a tradition that existed and was still alive prior to those findings, then they can have some significance, hypothetically speaking, for that tradition. But those findings themselves can only modify tradition in its outer applications, given, as I said, that the tradition exists and is alive in the first place.


For the record, I was raised as a RC, but I have always known of my Heathen roots. I don't really give a toss whether anyone tells me that what I believe in is wrong.At least, I did not say that. If you do not want to discuss history and such things, then don't.


I write them off as ignorant. I always do what makes me happy in the long run, and no God botherer will ever tell me otherwise!That's fine. You have misunderstood me if you think that I did not respect that.

[Psychonaut]

Tell me about it then, if you feel like it, but there is still no 'heathen tradition' in existence in the manner that you contend.

Much like other Western and Northern families, during the Yuletide, we raise a great fir tree in our home (tree worship being a paramount feature of Heathenry), we decorate the tree (the hanging of gifts on trees being another Heathen carryover present in the folklore surrounding the Wild Hunt), we eat the Christmas ham (yet another Heathen carryover from Freyr's cult), we burned the Yule log (again, another pre-Christian tradition), we left an offering of milk and cookies for Santa (derived from the offerings to the Yule Nisse/Tomte), etc. Nothing we ever did on Christmas, when I was a child, had anything to do with Jesus except for setting up a Nativity scene. There was no going to church. There was no praying to Jesus. Nothing. It was a seasonal festival that served as a method of binding our family together and to celebrate both the Winter itself and that our family had gathered together. Would this have been practiced in the 1st century by the original Christians? No. Is it practiced by the Orthodox sects in the Middle East? No. It is a collection of distinctly North European traditions that have continued, more or less, unmolested since before the imposition of Christianity.

[Anthropos]

Much like other Western and Northern families, during the Yuletide, we raise a great fir tree in our home (tree worship being a paramount feature of Heathenry), we decorate the tree (the hanging of gifts on trees being another Heathen carryover present in the folklore surrounding the Wild Hunt), we eat the Christmas ham (yet another Heathen carryover from Freyr's cult), we burned the Yule log (again, another pre-Christian tradition), we left an offering of milk and cookies for Santa (derived from the offerings to the Yule Nisse/Tomte), etc. Nothing we ever did on Christmas, when I was a child, had anything to do with Jesus except for setting up a Nativity scene. There was no going to church. There was no praying to Jesus. Nothing. It was a seasonal festival that served as a method of binding our family together and to celebrate both the Winter itself and that our family had gathered together. Would this have been practiced in the 1st century by the original Christians? No. Is it practiced by the Orthodox sects in the Middle East? No. It is a collection of distinctly North European traditions that have continued, more or less, unmolested since before the imposition of Christianity.

The Christmas tree is a custom of recent date, if I'm not mistaken. Also, I don't know what makes you so sure that they did not eat ham in the Middle East in the 1st century AD, when swine farmers are mentioned in the Gospel even, and since the Apostles did not forbid Christians from eating it.

Probably some more of those things you mentioned are really of a recent date; possibly all of it. There's no indication that these practices have been going on since pre-Christian times. My father, for example, claims that his forefathers, in recent memory that is, did not have a 'Christmas tree', that this custom was introduced in folkish revivals (likely some time during the 19th century), and that in the beginning noone cared about this new invention, since it was considered to be vulgar and bourgoise. (I hail from the countryside.) It's his words.

So what this means to me is that your family is secularised. So is mine, by the way. I am the only practising Christian in it. For these customary practices to be somehow compared to Christian tradition in its fulness is a bit of an unfair match, by the way.

[Psychonaut]

The Christmas tree is a custom of recent date, if I'm not mistaken.

The practice of bringing a tree into your home began in the 1500s in Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree). Prior to that, gifts were left on trees outside the home.


Also, I don't know what makes you so sure that they did not eat ham in the Middle East in the 1st century AD, when swine farmers are mentioned in the Gospel even, and since the Apostles did not forbid Christians from eating it.

We know that eating ham was practiced in Northern Europe during the Yuletide prior to the conversion. This is mentioned in the Sagas. Does it make more sense to speculate that Middle Eastern farmers might have done this, or to think that it is a carryover from a documented European tradition?


Probably some more of those things you mentioned are really of a recent date; possibly all of it. There's no indication that these practices have been going on since pre-Christian times.

So sayeth the one who scorns university libraries. I'm not lying when I say that the folklore sections of a decent library will have dozens of texts on this very subject. It's been thoroughly documented since the 19th century.

[Anthropos]

The practice of bringing a tree into your home began in the 1500s in Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree). Prior to that, gifts were left on trees outside the home.



We know that eating ham was eating in Northern Europe during the Yuletide prior to the conversion. This is mentioned in the Sagas. Does it make more sense to speculate that Middle Eastern farmers might have done this, or to think that it is a carryover from a documented European tradition?



So sayeth the one who scorns university libraries. I'm not lying when I say that the folklore sections of a decent library will have dozens of texts on this very subject. It's been thoroughly documented since the 19th century.

Yes, and much of it is contestable since that is the time of the popular spread of the folkish-romantic 'revivals'. Concerning the Christmas tree, your observation is similar to mine. Concerning the pigs, well it's only food for the body.

[Psychonaut]

Posts discussing the relationship between Christianity and the Traditionalist school have been moved here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10903)

[Jamt]

I wouldn't want to disturb, normally I mean. But the answer is really in the title of the thread: "The Heathen Roots of Christmas [split from Christmas Presents]". And I do believe that this thread was split from that thread with a post by someone who objected to the heathen intrusion. I didn't make a fuss about that, but since you mentioned it, I might as well remind you.


I don't want to bother anyone. I approach the discussion as if it was a historical discussion about tradition. But in order to attain any understanding of what tradition is, to begin with - and that is essential - one must allow room for it, and not tear it apart and glue it together arbitrarily.

Yes. But such evidence does not go to make a tradition. If it is taken in by a tradition that existed and was still alive prior to those findings, then they can have some significance, hypothetically speaking, for that tradition. But those findings themselves can only modify tradition in its outer applications, given, as I said, that the tradition exists and is alive in the first place.

At least, I did not say that. If you do not want to discuss history and such things, then don't.

That's fine. You have misunderstood me if you think that I did not respect that.

The more intrest from Oswe and Psy and the rest for Odenism and stuff the closer they get to the truth. Luther and so on.

[Jamt]

I meant Christianity ofcorse

[Jägerstaffel]

Much like other Western and Northern families, during the Yuletide, we raise a great fir tree in our home (tree worship being a paramount feature of Heathenry), we decorate the tree (the hanging of gifts on trees being another Heathen carryover present in the folklore surrounding the Wild Hunt), we eat the Christmas ham (yet another Heathen carryover from Freyr's cult), we burned the Yule log (again, another pre-Christian tradition), we left an offering of milk and cookies for Santa (derived from the offerings to the Yule Nisse/Tomte), etc. Nothing we ever did on Christmas, when I was a child, had anything to do with Jesus except for setting up a Nativity scene. There was no going to church. There was no praying to Jesus. Nothing. It was a seasonal festival that served as a method of binding our family together and to celebrate both the Winter itself and that our family had gathered together. Would this have been practiced in the 1st century by the original Christians? No. Is it practiced by the Orthodox sects in the Middle East? No. It is a collection of distinctly North European traditions that have continued, more or less, unmolested since before the imposition of Christianity.


I can't thank this post enough. You've hit the nail on the head.

[Osweo]

I'm not lying when I say that the folklore sections of a decent library will have dozens of texts on this very subject. It's been thoroughly documented since the 19th century.

Here's a rather primitive example from 1910, but it has relevant details, as well as nonsense:


The Origins of Popular Superstitions and Customs
by T. Sharper Knowlson
(26) CHRISTMAS.
Christianity became civilly established in the fourth century, and the festivals held in honour of Bacchus and other heathen deities at the Christmas season of the year gradually fell into decay. The primitive teachers of the Christian religion prohibited these scenes of festivity as being unsuited to the character of their founder, but on the formation of a regular hierarchy, supported by political power, the introduction of particular festivals, adapted to the respective periods of the pagan ones, soon became general. Thus by adopting the obsolete feasts of the Greeks and Romans, and adapting them to the most striking events in the lives of Christ and his notable followers, the prejudices of the pagan worshippers were shaken, and numerous converts obtained. Unfortunately these festival saint days at length became so numerous under the Papal authority, that the days of the year were not sufficiently numerous for their celebration. However, since the Reformation, the far greater portion have sunk into oblivion, and are only known by referring to the old calendars of the Saints. Yet the principal ones commemorated in honour of Christ are still retained, though not celebrated with the same festivity and show as in former times. Among these Christmas Day may be considered the most important. The first festival of this kind ever held in Britain, it is said, was celebrated by King Arthur in the city of York, A.D. 521. Previously to this year the 25th of December was dedicated to Satan, or to the heathen deities worshipped during the dynasties of the British, Saxon, and Danish Kings. In the year 521 this chivalrous monarch won the battle of Badan Hills, when 90,000 (?) of the enemy were slain, and the city of York was delivered up to him. He took up his winter quarters there, and held the festival of Christmas. The churches which lay levelled to the ground he caused to be rebuilt, and the vices attendant on heathenish feasts were banished from York for ever. As if in memory of its origin this county, Yorkshire seems to preserve the festivities of Christmas with more ancient hospitality than any other part of Great Britain. But everywhere the spirit of Christmas festivity has been broken; the old customs die one by one, and Yuletide is now, much more a general holiday, with plum pudding, presents, and paid bills as specialities, than anything religious and historic.

CHRISTMAS DECORATIONS.
The custom of decorating churches, streets, and private houses with holly and evergreens at Christmas still prevails among us; and in these decorations mistletoe occupies a place of peculiar significance. Vergil compares the golden bough in Infernis to the misletoe, and there is evidence that the use of this plant-parasite was not unknown to the ancients in their religious ceremonies, particularly the Greeks, of whose poets Vergil was the acknowledged imitator. It is certain that misletoe was held in high respect by the Northern nations of Europe, the Celts and the Goths being distinctive in their veneration about the time of the year when the Sun approaches the Winter Solstice. That the Druids in Britain regarded misletoe with a religious eye is too well-known to need further remark; but they were accustomed to decorate at 'Xmas time with all kinds of green plants, and the Church took over this practice, in some cases making an exception of the misletoe. Brand, however, is of opinion, although Gay mentions the misletoe among those evergreens that were put up in Churches, it never entered these sacred edifices but by mistake, or ignorance of the sextons; for it was the heathenish or profane plant, as having been of such distinction in the pagan rites of Druidism, and it therefore had its place assigned it in kitchens, where it was hung up in great state with its white berries; and whatever female chanced to stand under it, the young man present either had a right or claimed one of saluting her, and of plucking off a berry at each kiss. "I have made many diligent inquiries after the truth of this. I learnt, at Bath, that it never came into church there. An old sexton at Teddington in Middlesex informed me that some misletoe was once put up in the church there, but was by the clergyman immediately ordered to be taken away."
Over against this opinion must be put that of Stukeley in his Medallic History of Carausius, where he mentions the introduction of misletoe into York Cathedral on Christmas Eve as a remain of Druidism. Speaking of the Winter Solstice, our Christmas, he says: "This was the most respectable festival of our Druids, called Yule-tide; when misletoe, which they called All-heal, was carried in their hands and laid on their altars, as an emblem of the salutiferous advent of Messiah. This misletoe they cut off the trees with their upright hatchets of brass, called Celts, put upon the ends of their staffs, which they carried in their hands. Innumerable are these instruments found all over the British Isles.

"The custom is still preserved in the North, and was lately at York: on the Eve of Christmas-Day they carry Misletoe to the high Altar of the Cathedral, and proclaim a public and universal liberty, pardon, and freedom to all sorts of inferior and even wicked people at the gates of the city, towards the four quarters of Heaven."

The policy of the early Christian ecclesiastic seems to have been that of accepting prevalent customs by giving them a Christian interpretation; but where a complete acceptance might defeat his purpose, he drew a hard and fast line of separation. Thus Brand refers to the Council of Bracara as forbidding Christians to deck their houses with bay leaves and green boughs, but this prohibition extended only to their doing it at the same time as the Pagans. The use of misletoe in churches, a Druid sacred plant, might easily injure the faith of the members, so that its prohibition in some centres is easily understood. But an unusual plant, once put to unusual and withal religious uses cannot easily lose its position in human ceremonial; and when we find it in the home for osculatory purposes--the essence of the misletoe idea to-day--we can without much imagination see how the change came about. Stow in his Survey of London supplies an interesting picture of 'Xmas decorations in the past centuries. He says that "against the Feast of Christmas every man's house, as also their parish churches, were decked with holme, ivy, bayes, and whatsoever the season of the year afforded to be green. The conduits and standards in the streets were likewise garnished; among the which I read that in the year 1444 by tempest of thunder and lightning, towards the morning of Candlemas Day, at the Leadenhall in Cornhill, a Standard of tree, being set up in the midst of the pavement, fast in the ground, nailed full of holme and ivie, for disport of Christmass to the people, was torne up and cast down by the malignant Spirit (as was thought), and the stones of the pavement all about were cast in the streets, and into divers houses, so that the people were sore aghast at the great tempests."

Bourne observes that this custom of adorning the windows at this season with bay and laurel is but seldom used in the North; but in the South, particularly at our Universities, it is very common to deck not only the common windows of the town, but also the chapels of the colleges, with branches of laurel, which was used by the ancient Romans as the emblem of Peace, Joy, and Victory. In the Christian sense it may be applied to the victory gained over the Powers of Darkness by the coming of Christ.

On the night of this eve our ancestors were wont to light up candles of an uncommon size, called Christmas candles, and lay a log of wood upon the fire, called a Yule-clog, or Christmas-block, to illuminate the house, and, as it were, to turn night into day. This custom is in some measure still kept in the North of England.
The following occurs in Herrick's Hesoerides:--

CEREMONIES FOR CHRISTMASSE.
"Come bring with a noise,
My merry, merrie boys,
The Christmass Log to the firing:
While my good Dame she
Bids ye all be free,
And drink to your heart's desiring.

"With the last year's Brand
Light the new Block and,
For good successe in his spending,
On your psaltries play,
That sweet luck may
Come while the Log is teending.

"Drink now the strong beere,
Cut the white loaf here,
The while the meat is a-shredding
For the rare mince-pie,
And the plums stand by
To fill the paste that's a-kneading."

Christmas, says Blount, was called the Feast of Lights in the Western or Latin Church, because they used many lights or candles at the feast; or rather because Christ, the light of all lights, that true light, then came into the world. Hence the Christmas candle, and what was, perhaps, only a succedaneum, the Yule-block, or clog, before candles were in general use. Thus a large coal is often set apart at present, in the North, for the same purpose, i.e. to make a great light on Yule or Christmas Eve. Lights, indeed, seem to have been used upon all festive occasions, e.g. our illuminations and fireworks, on the news of victories.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/eng/osc/index.htm

[Óttar]

Christianity is the Gentile expression of the original belief of mankind
:eek:


Heathenry is a vulgar spin-off of The Original Faith.
Riiiiiiiiiight. Sure. Despite this being exactly the opposite of what archaeological evidence and common sense tells us.

:rolleyes2:

[Fred]

I havn't had a look at the Christian sub-forum yet, does it come under such scrutiny from Heathens? Somehow I doubt it...


EDIT: This isn't in direct relation to anyones post...Who is so afraid of enlightenment that they hide on the internet with obsessions of idols and materialism, that none dare break their devotion to?


I didn't say you're ignorant of Christianity. I said I show dismay at the fact you see me as ignorant of Christianity. The 'ownership' of Christmas or Yule has only came into discussion because of what can only be seen as a troll post and the Heathen community of this forum defending themselves.

I wouldn't say Heathenry is Johnny-come-lately with it clearly having its roots in the pre-Christian era, lasting untill the 10th century, and meeting revival in the 19th century... Christianity may have became more firmly grounded in European culture, but in relation to the polytheistic faiths that came before it, it is Christianity that is Johnny-come-lately.Heathenry is the worship of man (Odin is an ancestor-king, not a creator) and idols fashioned in the form of man, or other creatures made by God, not worship of God himself. Therefore, worship of creatures or human inventions (such as the runes, which Odin invented), such as the idols (charms and figurines), is a derivative form of religion and has no creative purpose. If you don't like the fact that you're revealed to be an idolator, what other people say to bring you to reality will mean nothing. It is nothing trollish in the slightest to be your brother's caretaker; in fact, it is religious obligation and compassion.


You know what? I'm beginning to become sick and tired of the way these God botherers have to constantly justify the importance of Christianity. There is more than sufficient historical and archaeological evidence which supports Paganism/Heathenry as having been a nature religion long before the advent of the Romans.

For the record, I was raised as a RC, but I have always known of my Heathen roots. I don't really give a toss whether anyone tells me that what I believe in is wrong. I write them off as ignorant. I always do what makes me happy in the long run, and no God botherer will ever tell me otherwise!"God botherer" sounds like ignorant Richard Dawkins speech. So what if paganism antedates the Gentile accession to the absolute and objective Truth? Aristotle and Plato have already been mentioned as believing in the same Truth as Abraham, which is why they are so valued. Aristotle and Plato were not Christians, but they acknowledged God the Father and most likely, God the Holy Spirit. The Son had yet to come, to Redeem the wayward souls.


:eek:


Riiiiiiiiiight. Sure. Despite this being exactly the opposite of what archaeological evidence and common sense tells us.

:rolleyes2:Really? Give us your Darwinian evidence that debunks God as a passing fad.


Mod Note: Discussions resulting in the discussion of the place of Christian apologetics in the Heathenry Portal were moved here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10913)