Did Russia invented Western civilization?

[RussiaPrussia]

if mongols would have reached middle and the rest of europe there wouldnt have happened a Renaissance but instead another dark age like under huns.
Thats what some people say, so does that mean russians invented western civilization by fighting mongols? Discuss

[Rattata]

No, the West invented the russian civilization.

[Mehmet]

Mongols defeated ancient Rus.
Went further West.
They went as far as Silesia, crushing the Teutonic knights.

They also crushed Hungarians and invaded Croatia.
Their horses drank from Adriatic's water.

What saved the West was the death of the Great Khan Ogedai.
The troops in Europe returned back to Mongolia as leaders needed to gather to select the new Khan.
Otherwise Vienna was next.

Hence Rus didn't do anything to 'stop' Mongols. Mongols crossed Russia and entered East Germany.


Actually Mongols have been defeated in the Spring of Goliath, Palestine/Israel.
It was their first major defeat, stopping once and for ever, their expansion.
By Moslem Turk guys (Kypchaks).
Later they started to lose the grip.

Ayn-Jalut - the battle that saved Islam:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9yoERHy1FE


So your assertion is like Afro-centrist assertions.

[ButlerKing]

Russians did do a lot for western Europeans and foundations of many weapons.

However you have Americans in almost every movie portrayed Russia as backward, evil and in need of democracy and modernization.

[Wadaad]

Peter the Great saw some fancy French baroque palaces and clean shaven, wig wearing, powdered Nobles = the beginning of Westernization of Russia

[ButlerKing]

Mongols defeated ancient Rus.
Went further West.
They went as far as Silesia, crushing the Teutonic knights.

They also crushed Hungarians and invaded Croatia.
Their horses drank from Adriatic's water.

What saved the West was the death of the Great Khan Ogedai.
The troops in Europe returned back to Mongolia as leaders needed to gather to select the new Khan.
Otherwise Vienna was next.

Hence Rus didn't do anything to 'stop' Mongols. Mongols crossed Russia and entered East Germany.


Actually Mongols have been defeated in the Spring of Goliath, Palestine/Israel.
It was their first major defeat, stopping once and for ever, their expansion.
By Moslem Turk guys (Kypchaks).
Later they started to lose the grip.

Ayn-Jalut - the battle that saved Islam:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9yoERHy1FE


So your assertion is like Afro-centrist assertions.


Some of the picture in this video is wrong. They were Mughals not Mongols :picard2:

The picture on the screen is from Uzbekistan I've even seen it when they were discussing about Mughals.

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

Peter the Great saw some fancy French baroque palaces and clean shaven, wig wearing, powdered Nobles = the beginning of Westernization of Russia

It's funny but it's actually true. He brought in Frenchmen to make Russia more Western and forced the Boyars to shave their beards off. Peter was a man who knew what he wanted and you better want it too.

[SKYNET]

Vice versa. My opinion.

[Balmung]

Russians did do a lot for western Europeans and foundations of many weapons.

However you have Americans in almost every movie portrayed Russia as backward, evil and in need of democracy and modernization.


So did we.

Our revolution was what sent shockwaves throughout Europe, the world, and got the ball rolling for the French revolution in the first place. Yet we are treated as if we are unimportant to society.

#mericastronk

[Dandelion]

The Russians invented western-style capitalism. Greatest historic discovery ever. :)

[Colonel Frank Grimes]

if mongols would have reached middle and the rest of europe there wouldnt have happened a Renaissance but instead another dark age like under huns.
Thats what some people say, so does that mean russians invented western civilization by fighting mongols? Discuss

A civilization isn't "invented." It's a development of a culture.

[Ατομικιστής]

As Alexander Dugin has said,Russians are Northern Greeks,due to the fact that guarded Europe.

[Proctor]

lol

[Proctor]

I suggest you read this: Human Accomplishment (http://www.gwern.net/docs/2003-murray-human-accomplishment.pdf)

[Ατομικιστής]

I suggest you read this: Human Accomplishment (http://www.gwern.net/docs/2003-murray-human-accomplishment.pdf)

Good source.
Then take a look at mestizo fertility rate.
We'll see who's gonna 'lol' better.

[Proctor]

Good source.
Then take a look at mestizo fertility rate.
We'll see who's gonna 'lol' better.

What? Not sure how that is relevant to this thread. xD

[Dál Riata]

It doesn't matter who invented what but Russia is a great culture in its own right. Pushkin, Chekhov, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, Solzhenitsyn, Tchaikovsky, Mussorgsky, Prokofiev, Shostakovitch, even Tarkovsky in film. Truly amazing writers, composers and an amazing film director.

And all were either before communism or despite it. The commies even banned Dostoevsky and probably others, drove Prokofiev into exile, arrested Shostakovich and heavily censored Tarkovsky.

And now Putin is defending Christian civilization against Obama and 'Western' backed agents like 'pussy riot' and femen.

[epirot]

What? Not sure how that is relevant to this thread. xD

(supposed low) fertility rate is the one and only argument of the albanians (and other slav haters).

[Proctor]

(supposed low) fertility rate is the one and only argument of the albanians (and other slav haters).

Yes but my posts were directed towards the OP (RussiaPrussia) not this random Greek dude.

[ALSh]

(supposed low) fertility rate is the one and only argument of the albanians (and other slav haters).

In every comment u mention Albanians. Do u have an Albanian cock in ur mouth or what?

[SKYNET]

And now Putin is defending Christian civilization against Obama and 'Western' backed agents like 'pussy riot' and femen.


lol
you better ask Russian nationalists who is Putin, judging by nationalists he's an enemy and betrayer who's trying to destroy the entirely Russian society

[Proctor]

lol
you better ask Russian nationalists who is Putin, judging by nationalists he's an enemy and betrayer who's trying to destroy the entirely Russian society

I've also heard that about Putin from Russian WN's. I don't believe he's a good person.

[Peikko]

Peter the Great saw some fancy French baroque palaces and clean shaven, wig wearing, powdered Nobles = the beginning of Westernization of Russia
This is so true. It's also not a coincidence, that he chose St.Petersburg to be the new capital. It still is the most Western city in Russia.

[RussiaPrussia]

The Russians invented western-style capitalism. Greatest historic discovery ever. :)

its actually true the current form of capitalism was born during the 90s in russia now every country will become like russia since oligarchy is increasing

[SKYNET]

I've also heard that about Putin from Russian WN's. I don't believe he's a good person.



yeah, Putin has a dark past since he worked for the KGB and present (I'm sure), he is also known as a king of the criminals in Russia.

[Ατομικιστής]

In every comment u mention Albanians. Do u have an Albanian cock in ur mouth or what?

He's married to a Serb wife.
He's dumb too,since I'm friendly towards Russia but he thought otherwise.

PS:He and the rest of Greeks here imagine me as an Albanian.

[SKYNET]

RussiaPrussia


could you please explain me what dont you like in my post?

[Dál Riata]

lol
you better ask Russian nationalists who is Putin, judging by nationalists he's an enemy and betrayer who's trying to destroy the entirely Russian society

Well compare him to any leader in the West. I know its not saying much, but I think any White American with balls and any White Western European would love to have a leader like Putin.

[Hweinlant]

if mongols would have reached middle and the rest of europe there wouldnt have happened a Renaissance but instead another dark age like under huns.
Thats what some people say, so does that mean russians invented western civilization by fighting mongols? Discuss

No. Russians, in modern ethnic sense did not yet exist when Mongols ran over the Kievan Rus'. Mongols infact created Russia and the so-called Great Russian ethnos. Grand Duchy of Moscow (aka Muscovy) was an Mongol client state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Client_state), which later on created Russian Empire, which was followed by Soviet Union and obviously modern Russian Federation. So it was the Mongols who created Russia. Wall of Europe, against Mongols, was mainly Poland-Lithuania and Hungary. Russia (Muscovy) was just the opposite, Mongol friends and allies.

[Hweinlant]

This is so true. It's also not a coincidence, that he chose St.Petersburg to be the new capital. It still is the most Western city in Russia.

He did not chose Spb as new capital. He built Spb, from scratch, to be new capital. At the site of Spb , the earliest city location, was Finnish farming village Jänissaari, which was at island. To that place Peter built the foundations of Spb. One of the farmers, who lost their lands, was Taneli Luukkoinen, who formed the Ingrian guerilla army called "Kivekkäät". They caused lot of harm and casualties for Muscovy. Yet Ingria came part of Muscovy, so in the end the war was lost. Spb was city built in middle of Finnish province. It remained mainly Finnish until Bolshevik genocide of the local (Ingrian) Finns in 1920s and 1930s. Spb was city, located in middle of protestant Finnish province.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingria
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Inkeri-2.png

[Insuperable]

Deleted

[noricum]

They also crushed Hungarians and invaded Croatia.
Their horses drank from Adriatic's water.

:picard1:

[Hweinlant]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir-Suzdal



The Vladimir-Suzdal Principality (1168–1389 AD) (Russian: Владимиро-Су́здальское кня́жество, Vladimiro-Suzdal'skoye knyazhestvo) or Vladimir-Suzdal Rus’ (Russian: Владимирско-Су́здальская Русь, Vladimirsko-Suzdal'skaya Rus’) was one of the major principalities which succeeded Kievan Rus' in the late 12th century centered in Vladimir-on-Klyazma. With time the principality grew into a grand duchy which was divided into several smaller principalities. After being conquered by the Mongol Empire, the principality became a self-governed state headed by its own nobility. A governorship of principality, however, was prescribed by a Khan declaration (jarlig) issued from the Golden Horde to a noble family of any of smaller principalities.
Traditionally, it is perceived as a cradle of the Great Russian language and nationality. Vladimir-Suzdal gradually evolved into the Grand Duchy of Moscow


Jarlig
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarlig



Jarlig (Mongolian: зарлиг, zarlig; Russian: iarlyk, also transliterated yarlyk and the Tartar: yarligh) is a term used in the Russian historiography for khan decrees of the Mongol Empire (particularly the khans of Golden Horde). It was one of three types of non-fundamental law pronouncements that had the effect of a regulation or ordinance, the other two being debter (a record of precedence cases for administration and judicial decisions) and billing (maxims or sayings attributed to Chinghis Khan). The jarliq provide important information about the running of the Mongol Empire.


Russia = Mongols.

HTH.

[Wolf]

if mongols would have reached middle and the rest of europe there wouldnt have happened a Renaissance but instead another dark age like under huns.

It seems unlikely that the Mongols could have been able to conquer Western Europe because of simple overexpansion.



What saved the West was the death of the Great Khan Ogedai.
The troops in Europe returned back to Mongolia as leaders needed to gather to select the new Khan.
Otherwise Vienna was next.

They could have come back later. :confused:



Peter the Great saw some fancy French baroque palaces and clean shaven, wig wearing, powdered Nobles = the beginning of Westernization of Russia

He was probably more impressed by the Dutch prosperity.

[Styrian Mujo]

:picard1:
Didn't you know Mongolian horses are able to drink salt water? It's a well know fact actually.:)

[Smaug]

Peter the Great saw some fancy French baroque palaces and clean shaven, wig wearing, powdered Nobles = the beginning of Westernization of Russia

Aye, even the names of Sankt Petersburg follows the Dutch grammatical rules because he loved the Dutch language.

[Wolf]

Aye, even the names of Sankt Petersburg follows the Dutch grammatical rules because he loved the Dutch language.

"Sankt Petersburg" is Standard German.

The Dutch version would be "Sint-Pietersburg".

[tamilgangster]

Meds invented western civilization

[Wolf]

Meds invented western civilization

Are the Meds Russians? :confused:

[RussiaPrussia]

It seems unlikely that the Mongols could have been able to conquer Western Europe because of simple overexpansion.



if Huns could destroy germans and romans than they could for sre

[epirot]

Yes but my posts were directed towards the OP (RussiaPrussia) not this random Greek dude.

Don't confuse greko-phone albanians with true Greeks. Albanians will always troll no matter what. It is you Americans who feed them after all. Now you will have to live with them.

[Proctor]

Don't confuse greko-phone albanians with true Greeks. Albanians will always troll no matter what. It is you Americans who feed them after all. Now you will have to live with them.

I don't understand where all this animosity is stemming from.

[epirot]

lol
you better ask Russian nationalists who is Putin, judging by nationalists he's an enemy and betrayer who's trying to destroy the entirely Russian society

After the recent fiasco with "Svoboda" party in Ukraine, (or whould i sayy ... Swoboda LOL), it is 100% certain, that 99.99% of the nationalistic parties in eastern europe are funded by NWO centers. I agree that Russia has about 10,000,000 men better, more intelligent, and more knowledgeable than Putin, so in this regard, Putin is just a temporary solution, till Slavic europe re-finds her-self. In short, finds what hit them after 1990.

[epirot]

PS:He and the rest of Greeks here imagine me as an Albanian.

That's the sad thing with us, neo-romioi,(false-greeks) 99 out of 100 think that the rest 99 are albanians.

[Learning_Genetics]

Russia conducted heroic resistance to the Mongols at the battle of Kulikovo field in 1380. It was the first instance where they were able to throw off the Mongols.

However it was not only Russians who fought the Mongols but also others like Poles, Belarusians, Lithuanians and Germans.

It is not possible to say Russia is responsible for Western civlisation because the Renaissance and Enlightenment were not inspired by Russia. However Russia helped a lot in fighting Mongols and defending Europe from them. They were at the front line of the fight, along with Poles, Lithuanians, Germans and Belarusians.

[Mehmet]

Russia conducted heroic resistance to the Mongols at the battle of Kulikovo field in 1380. It was the first instance where they were able to throw off the Mongols.

However it was not only Russians who fought the Mongols but also others like Poles, Belarusians, Lithuanians and Germans.

It is not possible to say Russia is responsible for Western civlisation because the Renaissance and Enlightenment were not inspired by Russia. However Russia helped a lot in fighting Mongols and defending Europe from them. They were at the front line of the fight, along with Poles, Lithuanians, Germans and Belarusians.

You refer to Tatars (Golden Horde), Turkics with a Mongol upper class.
The Mongol invasion took place in the 13th century, not 14th.




Mongol invasion of Rus'

The Mongol Empire invaded Kievan Rus' in the 13th century, destroying numerous cities including Ryazan, Kolomna, Moscow, Vladimir and Kiev.

This campaign, part of the Mongol invasion of Europe, was heralded by the Battle of the Kalka River (1223) which resulted in a Mongol victory over forces of several Rus' principalities. Nevertheless, the Mongols retreated. Batu Khan's full-scale invasion of Rus' occurred from 1237 to 1240; the campaign was ended by a Mongol succession crisis. All Russian states had to submit to Mongol rule and became part of the Golden Horde empire; some of it lasted until 1480.

The invasion, facilitated by the beginning breakup of Kievan Rus' in the 13th century, had incalculable ramifications for the history of Eastern Europe, including the division of the East Slavic people into three separate nations (modern day Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus) and the rise of the Grand Duchy of Moscow.


Influence on Rus' society

The Mongols have been blamed for the destruction of Kievan Rus', the breakup of the ancient Rus' nationality into three components, and the introduction of the concept of "oriental despotism" into Russia.
A significant number of historians consider the oppression of Rus' by the Mongols to be the major cause of what is sometimes called "the East-West gap" - approximately 200 years delay in introducing major social, political and economical reforms and scientific innovations in Russia compared to Western Europe. Specifically, the isolation from the West may have caused Russia's later non-involvement in the Renaissance, the Protestant Reformation, and failure to develop a middle class.
Many Russian boyar (noble) families traced their descent from the Mongols or Tatars, including Veliaminov-Zernov, Godunov, Arseniev, Bakhmetev, Bulgakov (descendents of Bulgak) and Chaadaev (descendents of Genghis Khan's son Jagatay). In a survey of Russian noble families of the 17th century, over 15% of the Russian noble families had Tatar or Oriental origins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Rus'#Influence_on_Rus.27_societ y

[Aunt Hilda]

you got something mixed up, the Rus' lost against the Mongols and became their vassals.
It was the Hungarians and the Poles who protected Europe from the Mongols.

[Harkonnen]

What comes to Western civilization and related stuff. Imagine there are two guys. The other is standing at the top of water falls and he sees the water pouring into depths. Then there is this other guy who is standing inside the water falls and he sees all around the water pouring towards him. But they can not see each other. All they see is the water.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-fiu5umVnI

[Geni]

if mongols would have reached middle and the rest of europe there wouldnt have happened a Renaissance but instead another dark age like under huns.
Thats what some people say, so does that mean russians invented western civilization by fighting mongols? Discuss

Man is absurd to pretend that Russia invented Western civilization, do not be ridiculous,but it is true that the Russian people, which I respect him a lot, he participated in the advanced technology of Humanity

[Equilibrium]

if mongols would have reached middle and the rest of europe there wouldnt have happened a Renaissance but instead another dark age like under huns.
Thats what some people say, so does that mean russians invented western civilization by fighting mongols? Discuss

Sorry brah, but as you very well know:

Civilization = Skycrapers
Skycrapers ≠ Russian invention

Ergo:
Civilization ≠ Russian invention

[Szegedist]

Russia....... civilisation?

[meAyin-sixteen]

And now Putin is defending Christian civilization against Obama and 'Western' backed agents like 'pussy riot' and femen.


...And now the former KGB communist agent putin is defending Christian civilization against Obama and 'Western' backed agents like 'pussy riot' and femen ...Ha, ha.

Here; eat this Chinese candy to boost your health.

http://youtu.be/YW3FBN2zfdk

[SKYNET]

Sorry brah, but as you very well know:

Civilization = Skycrapers
Skycrapers ≠ Russian invention

Ergo:
Civilization ≠ Russian invention




http://imageshack.us/a/img46/2575/barf1f1u8rq.jpg

http://cdn.pouted.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Skyscrapers-1-Q77HDITBCI-1600x1200.jpg




Also do not forget about Seoul, Shanghai, Tokyo

[Furia]

if mongols would have reached middle and the rest of europe there wouldnt have happened a Renaissance but instead another dark age like under huns.
Thats what some people say, so does that mean russians invented western civilization by fighting mongols? Discuss

The Mongols did reach the middle of Europe. Russia didn't save Europe from anything, they were completely overran. Ogedei Khan's death is what ground the invasion to a halt.

If anyone gets the glory of 'saving' Europe from foreign invaders it's Charles Martel.

[Not a Cop]

He did not chose Spb as new capital. He built Spb, from scratch, to be new capital. At the site of Spb , the earliest city location, was Finnish farming village Jänissaari, which was at island. To that place Peter built the foundations of Spb. One of the farmers, who lost their lands, was Taneli Luukkoinen, who formed the Ingrian guerilla army called "Kivekkäät". They caused lot of harm and casualties for Muscovy. Yet Ingria came part of Muscovy, so in the end the war was lost. Spb was city built in middle of Finnish province. It remained mainly Finnish until Bolshevik genocide of the local (Ingrian) Finns in 1920s and 1930s. Spb was city, located in middle of protestant Finnish province.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingria
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Inkeri-2.png



One thing you did'nt mention is that Ingria became protestant only after wiping out and converting all of the orthodoxes, and replacing the local population with Finns, Swedes and Germans.

Which ended in increase of protestant population of Ingria from 7% in 1623 to 73% in 1695 so you can only blame the swedish settelment policy:D

[Hweinlant]

One thing you did'nt mention is that Ingria became protestant only after wiping out and converting all of the orthodoxes, and replacing the local population with Finns, Swedes and Germans.

Which ended in increase of protestant population of Ingria from 7% in 1623 to 73% in 1695 so you can only blame the swedish settelment policy:D

There indeed was large scale replacement of Orthodox Finnics with Lutheran Finnics. Reason for the region transforming into Lutheran area had much to do with the Orthodox Finnics voting with their two feets and relocating to eastern Tver (which had plenty of free farm land after the Poles/Lithuanians had killed most of the people there). They were afraid that the godless "Swedes" will force them to Lutheranism. "Wiping out" is not exactly correct term.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tver_Karelians

[Balmung]

The idea of someone inventing civilization is ridiculous to begin with. A pretty arrogant thing to claim as well. Lots of groups had civilizations even if you deem them inferior or primitive. They had their own languages, their own laws, agriculture. Hell Britons even had roads before Romans came over and built theirs on top of them like the cultural and acomplishment thieves they were.

[silentkiller]

The invention of civilization by one particular nation is geopolitical egocentrism. Why European civilization is the only and correct? Who defines it? You don't even care, don't even use your brain. Nation (Russians), which discovered such a large and uninhabitable space can not be barbarians. Mongols left some mark, but united Russian dukes, conquered the invaders, ultimately. I have been to Western Europe and seems to me that Russians are nation which is genetically even clearer, judging by faces of strangers on streets. Most of the things you discuss are russophobe fairytales that you consume from Western media, without hesitation, who benefits from it. Russian state began with the Mongols? Shit, it's not even serious. I cannot discuss with people who operate history on such low level. You say that Putin is a bloody tyrant. Ok so, you are protecting whores of Pussy Riot, who fucked in the Moscow metro on camera. Are they super-civilized? There is a liberal radio station "Dozhd'" (Rain), which is very anti-Russian (as it seems to me) and serves the interests of the foreign elite. And no one bothers this radio. They recently held a poll - "Whether it was necessary to protect the Leningrad from invasion of Germans"? How is that possible? I mean it was like to say "We had to give up and let nazis conquer us?". What about memory and honour of people died in the WW II? In Western Europe, there is any media that says something positive about Russia? I think there's not. And, in Russia we have a lot of mass media, which criticize Putin and Russians, as well. So where you have more "democracy"? Moreover, real democracy and human rights do not exist. Strong power does not let people to say whatever these people want and negate thereby the job of special services and diplomacy. In different countries, these things are called differently, but the meaning remains the same. The government power should not fall into the wrong hands. That's it. Why then appeared NSA and tracking program? What about Guantanamo, where tortures are officially permitted? And all this happens in the most civilized and humane country in the world. Ahhh, and Russia will never become "civilized" for Westerners, Russians have too much natural resources. Struggle for natural resources is one of basises of geopolitics. 100 years ago, same things were going on in the world. When Stalin threw Trotsky (agent of Western influence) out of the country and started reuniting Empire, which was broken in process of Revolution, appears Hitler, who had plans to capture the Russian lands. It was just an accident? So reasons don't change, what do change are names of the reasons.

[Rambo07]

Peter the Great saw some fancy French baroque palaces and clean shaven, wig wearing, powdered Nobles = the beginning of Westernization of Russia

loooooooooool
or better yet when they started incorporating Vodka brands lol jk luv the Russians!

[Ernesto Grandi]

italians invented european civilization
other europeans invented the wannabeitaliancivilization (protestantism, scandinavism, orthodox proudness..) to fight italian church political-ideological suprematism.

italians = the Center
non-italians jealous other europeans = trolls who invented eretical concepts like nordic/slavs master race and anti-papism (nordic/slaves master races = anti-papism = anti-italians).

plain and simple.

[Wolf]

italians invented european civilization
other europeans invented the wannabeitaliancivilization (protestantism, scandinavism, orthodox proudness..) to fight italian church political-ideological suprematism.

italians = the Center
non-italians jealous other europeans = trolls who invented eretical concepts like nordic/slavs master race and anti-papism (nordic/slaves master races = anti-papism = anti-italians).

plain and simple.

Nonsense!

[LightHouse89]

no. I invented modern civilization.

[Aunt Hilda]

russia? india and africa had more influence on western civilisation

[Peikko]

Russians haven't even adopted Western civilization.

[Kalimtari]

no. I invented modern civilization.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GCSWEgZT94

http://mayyoufindstrength.files.wordpress.com/2013/03/white-kid-dance-club.gif?w=474

[cyrus]

Did Russia invented Western Civilisation ?

In a mirror, you could say they invented it. Otherwise, they invented horse s__it from a social point of view.