Slavic Languages Discussion

[Wulfhere]

Belorus was always called "White Russia" in English before it became a victim to the political correctness that tells us we must always use the native name for a country. So the language you speak is not a dialect of Russian, then?

[Cail]

So the language you speak is not a dialect of Russian, then?

No, it is about as close to Polish as it is to Russian, though the closest relative is Ukrainian. That, if we speak about literary languages, in reality everything is kinda more complicated - a dialect continuum exists, that rolls from western dialects of Russian to Belorussian and then to Polish, while southern dialects of Russian gradually become dialects of Ukrainian, which, in turn, becomes Slovak in the west. Northern Ukrainian dialects are indistinguishable from Southern Belorussian.

[kwp_wp]

No, it is about as close to Polish as it is to Russian, though the closest relative is Ukrainian. That, if we speak about literary languages, in reality everything is kinda more complicated - a dialect continuum exists, that rolls from western dialects of Russian to Belorussian and then to Polish, while southern dialects of Russian gradually become dialects of Ukrainian, which, in turn, becomes Slovak in the west. Northern Ukrainian dialects are indistinguishable from Southern Belorussian.

Belorussian language belongs to Eastern Slavic languages together with for example Russian and Ukrainian. Polish together with Czech and Slovakian are Western Slavic languages. Amongs the slight grammar and structural differences the latter ones use Latin alphabet in opposed to Eastern Slavic which use Cyrillic alphabet

[W. R.]

Belorus was always called "White Russia" in English before it became a victim to the political correctness that tells us we must always use the native name for a country. So the language you speak is not a dialect of Russian, then?Harščkom nazavi, ale ŭ pieč nia staŭ. – You may call me „pot” but don’t put me in the oven. :D

The word “Belarus” (Biełaruś) stems from the combination of words “Biełaja Ruś” (White Rus), that was the name of the [North]-Eastern part of the present Republic of Belarus. Belarusians (and also Ukrainians, Poles, Russians) distinguish the words “Rus” and “Russia”, for these nations (and some others) “Rus” and “Russia” are different words which have different meanings.

It would be interesting to read some comments from Osweo on this… :rolleyes:

As for linguistic matters I think Cail’s reply is very good.
Belorussian language belongs to Eastern Slavic languages together with for example Russian and Ukrainian. Polish together with Czech and Slovakian are Western Slavic languages. Amongs the slight grammar and structural differences the latter ones use Latin alphabet in opposed to Eastern Slavic which use Cyrillic alphabetThe Triple Division of the Slavic Languages: A linguistic finding, a product of politics, or an accident? by Tomasz Kamusella, PhD (http://forum.stirpes.net/linguistics-philology/20876-triple-division-slavic-languages-linguistic-finding.html)

[Cail]

Belorussian language belongs to Eastern Slavic languages together with for example Russian and Ukrainian. Polish together with Czech and Slovakian are Western Slavic languages. Amongs the slight grammar and structural differences the latter ones use Latin alphabet in opposed to Eastern Slavic which use Cyrillic alphabet

There is no such thing as "Eastern" and "Western" Slavic languages. This division is purely political/historical. From a linguistic point of view, the only division in Slavic family is North vs South. Both Northern and Southern groups form smooth continuums - from Northern Russian to Czechia, and from Bulgaria to Slovenia.

Speaking about the northern Slavic continuum, the "East-West" division is paraphyletic, meaning that neither of the groups forms a proper genetic taxon. There have never been a "proto-eastern-slavic" and "proto-western-slavic" languages, but rather a constant dialect continuum (from the earliest times of common Slavic), and adjacent dialects coevolve. There are no language borders whatsoever. Literally speaking, you can start walking in Archangelsk, northern Russia, and come to Karlovy Vary, western Czechia, and if you walked slow enough - you want even notice how the language changed.

This situation, though, slowly disappears, because of the extinction of dialects and mass language standardization, alas.

By the way, Polish is not much closer to Czech, then it is even to Russian. And the "Ruthenian" (Belorussian+Ukrainian) cluster is closer to Polish, then Czech is.

[Osweo]

The word “Belarus” (Biełaruś) stems from the combination of words “Biełaja Ruś” (White Rus), that was the name of the [North]-Eastern part of the present Republic of Belarus. Belarusians (and also Ukrainians, Poles, Russians) distinguish the words “Rus” and “Russia”, for these nations (and some others) “Rus” and “Russia” are different words which have different meanings.

It would be interesting to read some comments from Osweo on this… :rolleyes:
Hehe, I normally would defend the Great Russian Chauvinist orthodoxy on such matters, but my last KGB paycheck bounced... :swl

Nah, but what do you mean there? I don't quite get it. 'Rossiya' is not really a Russian word - it's just a learned Latinism. Russians do occasionally say simply Русь for their country - it's not their fault that the bits on the edge fell off and yet kept the same name! :p

Harščkom nazavi, ale ŭ pieč nia staŭ. – You may call me „pot” but don’t put me in the oven. :D
That's quite a fascinating sentence for showing the difference and similarity between Russian and Belorussian. :thumb001:

I'll try to put it into more 'Englishy' looking orthography:

Harščkom nazavi, ale ŭ pieč nia staŭ
Harschkom nazavi, ale v pyech nya stav
If we 'russify' it, we get
Gorschkom nazovy, ale v pyech' nye stav
Горщком назови, а в печь не став.

('ale' is no longer used in Standard Russian like this, but it's understandable all the same, like English reading Scotch dialect)
Belarussian, and some western Russian dialects are 'akayuschy' instead of 'okayuschy' - they say 'a' instead of more etymological 'o' in unstressed positions. You even hear this in Moscow very often.

I love to (try to) read Belarussian and Ukrainian. Last time I was in Minsk I was too busy, but I wanted to buy a book of Skazki or 'fairy tales' to get more a feel for the 'mova'. Ah well, maybe next time! :thumb001: I also can't wait to go back to that Stolovaya cafe-thing on the main street in Minsk; lovely salads! :yumyum:

About East and West Slavonic treated as distinct subfamilies, my own experience with the standard forms reinforces that impression, as the western ones seem much 'weirder' to me. I understand the genetic history of the languages isn't so simple, but I'm just saying about my own 'feeling' in the 'here and now'.

WHat's your position on Cyrillic, WR?

[Monolith]

About East and West Slavonic treated as distinct subfamilies, my own experience with the standard forms reinforces that impression, as the western ones seem much 'weirder' to me. I understand the genetic history of the languages isn't so simple, but I'm just saying about my own 'feeling' in the 'here and now'.

I agree. As a south Slavic speaker, I find Russian and Belarussian much more comprehensible than e.g. Polish.

[Cail]

About East and West Slavonic treated as distinct subfamilies, my own experience with the standard forms reinforces that impression, as the western ones seem much 'weirder' to me. I understand the genetic history of the languages isn't so simple, but I'm just saying about my own 'feeling' in the 'here and now'.

Well, naturally, that is how it supposed to be. As a speaker of Russian, you would find Ruthenian cluster (which is closer to Russian in the dialect continuum) closer to your language. Same as you would find Polish closer (much closer) to Russian, than Czech is. Also it might be an issue of Polish "special" orthography, which can be difficult to read without prior acquaintance. While in fact, the actual sounds represented by it are largely same as Russian ones.

[Cail]

I agree. As a south Slavic speaker, I find Russian and Belarussian much more comprehensible than e.g. Polish.

Say thanks to a huge stratum of Old Church Slavonic (southern-Slavic/Old Bulgarian in origin) loans in Russian. Though it is much less of them in Belarussian/Ukrainian.

Also - again - Polish's non-standard orthography. Try reading, f.e., Slovak, you will be mighty surprised.

[Cail]

P.S. what about moving discussion on Slavic languages to a separate thread :)? It's a little offtopic here, but a very interesting topic imo.

[Osweo]

Also it might be an issue of Polish "special" orthography, which can be difficult to read without prior acquaintance. While in fact, the actual sounds represented by it are largely same as Russian ones.
No way! Polish has all sorts of weird awful sounds! :p
((Who has a link to that youtube clip from an old Polish film where the German officer has a nightmare trying to write down the Pole's surname? :rofl:))
I barely recognise a thing when the Lyakhi speak, but if you ask them to write down what they said it's usually easy enough. I used to teach Polish kids English, and occasionally amused myself by asking them about parallels with Russian, but I admit I have a lot of familiarising to do with the language before I can say anything authoritative.

Say thanks to a huge stratum of Old Church Slavonic (southern-Slavic/Old Bulgarian in origin) loans in Russian. Though it is much less of them in Belarussian/Ukrainian.
Aye, Russian's quite peculiar in that respect. Prince Trubetskoy wrote some interesting stuff on this I read once. He was quite proud of the way Russian had done this. I always felt it a bit of a shame that they'd moved so far from the dialects though, and that Slovo o Polku Igoreve sort of texts were now a little too hard to penetrate, with the way the language has gone off its original trajectory.

And coupled with this, the other Slavonic languages have often even deliberately tried to purge OCS elements. :shrug:

Also - again - Polish's non-standard orthography. Try reading, f.e., Slovak, you will be mighty surprised.
Maybe we could collect a few examples in a thread, from all the languages? I'd be interested to see it. Like a section from the Bible, for instance? :)

[Monolith]

Also - again - Polish's non-standard orthography. Try reading, f.e., Slovak, you will be mighty surprised.
Indeed, Slovak is quite easy to understand, especially their central (standard) dialect, which has some similarities with the southern group.

[Cail]

Maybe we could collect a few examples in a thread, from all the languages? I'd be interested to see it. Like a section from the Bible, for instance? :)

Biblical text might not be the best example for comparison, because they often use slightly different constructions for translating original Latin/Greek/Hebrew sentences. For example, here's "Pater Noster" in Russian (with Old Church Slavonisms), in Polish and then again in Russian, but not a canonical version, but rather my literal (word-to-word) translation from Polish:

1)Canonical Russian (using Polish orthography):

Otcze nasz, suszczij na niebiesach,
Da sviatit-sia imia Twoje;
Da priidet Carstvo Twoje;
Da budet wolia Tvoja i na ziemlie, kak na niebie;
Chleb naszego nasuszcznogo daj
Nam sej deń; i prośti
Nam dolgi naszi, kak i my
Proszczaem dolżnikam naszim;
I ne vvedi nas v iskuszenije,
No izbav' nas ot lukavogo.
Ibo Twoje jest Carstvo
I sila i slawa wo weki.
Amiń.

2)Polish

Ojcze nasz, ktorys jest w niebiesiech,
Swięć się imię Twoje;
Przyjdź krolestwo Twoje;
Bądź wola Twoja jak w niebie, tak i na ziemi;
Chleba naszego powszedniego daj
Nam dzisiaj; i odpuść
Nam winy nasze, jak i my
Odpuszczamy naszym winowajcom.
I nie wodź nas na pokuszenie,
Ale zbaw nas od złego.
Bo Twoje jest Krolestwo
I siła i sława na wieki.
Amen.

3)Russian translated from Polish

Otcze nasz, kotory jest w niebiesach,
Swiatit-sia imia Twoje;
Prijd' korolewstwo Twoje;
Bud' wola Twoja kak v niebie, tak i na ziemlie;
Chleba naszego powsednievniego daj
Nam sej deń, i otpuśti
Nam winy naszi, kak i my
Otpuskajem naszym winowatym.
I nie wwodi nas v iskuszenije,
No izbaw nas ot zlogo.
Ibo Twoje jest Korolewstwo
I sila i slawa na wieki.
Amiń.

Now, Polish, Belorussian, Russian, Ukrainian, and Slovak versions string after string (in that order):

P: Ojcze nasz, ktorys jest w niebiesiech,
B: Ojcza nasz, jakij jesć w niabiesach,
R: Otcze nasz, kotory jest w niebiesach,
U: Otcze nasz, jakij je w nebesach,
S: Otcze nasz, ktory je w nebesiach,

P: Swięć się imię Twoje;
B: Swiacić sia imia Twoje;
R: Swiatit sia imia Twoje;
U: Swiatit sia imia Twoje;
S: Swet' sa jmeno Twoje;

P: Przyjdź krolestwo Twoje;
B: Pryjdź karalewstwo Twoje;
R: Prijd' korolewstwo Twoje;
U: Prijde koroliwstwo Twoje;
S: Prid' kralowstwo Twoje;

P: Bądź wola Twoja jak w niebie, tak i na ziemi;
B: Budź wolia Twoja jak w niebie, tak i na ziamli;
R: Bud' wolia Twoja kak w niebie, tak i na ziemlie;
U: Bude wolia Twoja, jak w nebi, tak i na ziemli;
S: Bud' wola Twoja jako w nebi, tak i zemi;

P: Chleba naszego powszedniego daj
B: Chleba naszago pawsiadzienego daj
R: Chleba naszego powsednievniego daj
U: Chliba naszego powsiakdennego daj
S: Chlieba naszeho każdodenneho daj

P: Nam dzisiaj; i odpuść
B: Nam sej dzeń, i adpuśćі
R: Nam sej deń, i otpuśti
U: Nam cej deń, i vidpuśti
S: Nam dnes, i odpust'

P: Nam winy nasze, jak i my
B: Nam winy naszy, jak i my
R: Nam winy naszy, kak i my
U: Nam winy naszy, jak i my
S: Nam winy nasze, jako i my

P: Odpuszczamy naszym winowajcom.
B: Adpuskajem naszym winawatym.
R: Otpuskajem naszym winowatym.
U: Vidpuskajemo naszym winuwatym.
S: Odpuszt'ame naszym winnikom.

P: I nie wodź nas na pokuszenie,
B: I nie wwiadzi nas w spakuszennie,
R: I nie wwodi nas w iskuszenije,
U: I ne wwedi nas w spokuszennie,
S: I ne uwod' nas w pokuszenie,

P: Ale zbaw nas od złego.
B: Ale zbaw nas ad zloga.
R: No izbaw nas ot zlogo.
U: Ale izbaw nas vid zlogo.
S: Ale zbaw nas od zleho.

P: Bo Twoje jest Krolestwo
B: Bo Twoje jesć Karalewstwo
R: Ibo Twoje jest Korolewstwo
U: Bo Twoje je Koroliwstwo
S: Lebo Twoje je Kralowstwo

P: I siła i sława na wieki.
B: I sila i slawa na wieki.
R: I sila i slawa na wieki.
U: I sila, i slawa na wiki.
S: I sila i slawa na weky.

/Upd - added Slovak and Ukrainain.

Dialect continuum can be roughly presented in the same order: Polish->Belorussian->Russian->Ukrainian->Slovak, and then again to Polish (like a snake biting it's tail). Belorussian and Ukrainian are also connected by Polessian dialects, while Czech then would be close to Slovak, but slightly outside the circle.

[Cail]

I have good Swadesh lists for Russian, Polish and Czech somewhere, i'll post them if i find them :).

[Monolith]

Very interesting.

Here are Croatian and Slovene versions:

S: Oče naš, ki si v nebesih,
C: Oče naš, koji jesi na nebesima,

S: posvečeno bodi tvoje ime,
C: sveti se ime tvoje,

S: pridi k nam tvoje kraljestvo,
C: dođi kraljevstvo tvoje,

S: zgodi se tvoja volja
C: budi volja tvoja,

S: kakor v nebesih tako na zemlji.
C: kako na nebu tako i na zemlji.

S: Daj nam danes naš vsakdanji kruh
C: Kruh naš svagdanji daj nam danas,

S: in odpusti nam naše dolge,
C: i otpusti nam duge naše,

S: kakor tudi mi odpuščamo svojim dolžnikom,
C: kako i mi otpuštamo dužnicima našim,

S: in ne vpelji nas v skušnjavo,
C: i ne uvedi nas u napast,

S: temveč reši nas hudega.
C: nego izbavi nas od zla.

Amen

[Osweo]

Excellent work, everyone, it's great to compare the languages like this!

But I realised, even after I wrote my suggestion, that religious texts are too often consciously archaic. We should think of a different text to translate... Any ideas?

As for archaisms in the Russian 'Paternoster' they are many;

The very first word is in the vocative case, 'Otche' instead of the more usual 'Otets'. Vocatives are indeed only used in religious speech. The other examples I can think of are 'Gospodi' and 'Bozhe', from Gospod' and Bog (Lord and God).

Endings in -ego and -ogo are written like that, as in the other Slavonic languages, but in Russian they have a peculiar -evo, -ovo pronunciation. This is not observed in religious speech, however, which follows the Church Slavonic forms.

Here's the extinct Polab version, by the way:
http://www.christusrex.net/www1/pater/images/polab-p.jpg

Nos Fader, tâ tâi jis vâ nìbi¶ai, sj±tã vârdã tüji jaimã.
Tüjã rik komã.
Tüjã viµã ¹inót, kok vâ nìbi¶ai, tok kãk no zimì.
Noséj vésìdanesnã s»aibì doj-nãm dans.
Un vitìdoj-nãm nos grex, kãk moi vitìdojimì nosìm gresnãrüm.
Un ni brinïoj nos kâ farsükoñì, tâi lözoj nos vit vésokãg x'audãg.
Amen.

Interesting how it had borrowed so much from German before its demise. A bit like Cornish. I colour borrowings in red;

Rus; Otcze nasz, suszczij na niebiesach,
Plb; Nos Fader, ta taj jis wa nebisaj
Rus; Da sviatit-sia imia Twoje;
Plb; Sjota warda tuji jaima.
Rus; Da priidet Carstvo Twoje;
Plb; Tuja rik koma.
Rus; Da budet wolia Tvoja i na ziemlie, kak na niebie;
Plb; Tuja vila shinot, kok wa nebisaj, tok kak no zime.
Rus; Chleb naszego nasuszcznogo
Plb; Nosej wesedanesna ?st'aibe?
Rus; daj Nam sej deń;
Plb; doj-nam dans.
Rus; i prośti Nam dolgi naszi,
Plb; Un vitedoj-nam nos grekh
Rus; kak i my Proszczaem dolżnikam naszim;
Plb; kak moi vitedojime nosem gresnarum.
Rus; I ne vvedi nas v iskuszenije,
Plb; Un ni ?brindoj? nos ka farsukone,
Rus; No izbav' nas ot lukavogo.
Plb; Tai lozoj nos vit vesokag khaudag

[Cail]

Polabian was practically a creole. There are lots of loans on all levels, not only in lexic, but also in constructions, grammar and so on. Here's another (better one, i think) transcription:

Aita nos, tâ toi jis wâ nebesai,
sjętü wordoj tüji jaimą;
tüji rik komaj;
tüja wüľa mo są ťüńot kok wâ nebesai tok no zemi;
nosę wisedanesnę sťaibę
doj nam dâns; a wütâdoj
nam nose greche,kok moi
wütâdojeme nosim gresnarem;
ni bringoj nos wâ warsükongę;
toi losoj nos wüt wisokag chaudag.
Pritü tüje ją tü ťenądztwü
un müc un câst.
Amen.


This text also appears to be translated to Polabian from German, not directly from Latin. It parallels German forms 1 to 1, like "sjętü wordoj tüji jaimą"= "geheiligt werde dein Name", Slavic languages don't use such constructions.

[Cail]

The very first word is in the vocative case, 'Otche' instead of the more usual 'Otets'. Vocatives are indeed only used in religious speech. The other examples I can think of are 'Gospodi' and 'Bozhe', from Gospod' and Bog (Lord and God).

Vocative case actually survived in Russian informal (non-literary) speech, just lost its endings. Like f.e. ""Vań" ("Вань"), vocative from "Vania" ("Ваня", diminutive of "Ivan"), while a proper vocative form would be "Vane". Etc with "Mаш", "Зай", "Мам". It also evolved a specific intonation to stress the "vocativeness", like "Va-Ań".

[Osweo]

Good find, Cail. :thumb001:

tüja wüľa mo są ťüńot
Thy will shall be done. - Another borrowing here?
The other version had 'shinot' - a cognate with совершенно?

sťaibę
This word for 'bread' puzzles me. How to explain it?

ni bringoj nos
Да! Я прав! It is a borrowing after all! Just seems that the transcription above obscured it a little.

Pritü tüje ją tü ťenądztwü
A very odd word for Kingdom.
Should we suppose the root to be ťenąd or ťeną or ťen? I'm wondering if it's cognate with English 'thane' < 'thegn'?

[Cail]

Good find, Cail. :thumb001:

Thy will shall be done. - Another borrowing here?
The other version had 'shinot' - a cognate with совершенно?

"Shinot" was just a mistranscription. "ťüńot" is an obvious Germanism, Ger "tun" = "do". ("Du tust" = Old English "Thou doest", full cognate).



This word for 'bread' puzzles me. How to explain it?

"sťaibę" most likely from Middle German "Scheibe" ("bread loaf", in modern German it simply means "loaf").



Да! Я прав! It is a borrowing after all! Just seems that the transcription above obscured it a little.

Yes, obviously from "bringen".



A very odd word for Kingdom.
Should we suppose the root to be ťenąd or ťeną or ťen? I'm wondering if it's cognate with English 'thane' < 'thegn'?

"ťenądztwü", implies being ruled by a "ťenądz", and that, i think, might come from Old Slavic "kěnędz", which became "knez" or "kniaz" in most Slavic languages. Obviously Polabian retained the Jer ("ъ", "ě"). "K" -> "ť" palatalization is not unusual.

[Osweo]

Vocative case actually survived in Russian informal (non-literary) speech, just lost its endings. Like f.e. ""Vań" ("Вань"), vocative from "Vania" ("Ваня", diminutive of "Ivan"), while a proper vocative form would be "Vane". Etc with "Mаш", "Зай", "Мам". It also evolved a specific intonation to stress the "vocativeness", like "Va-Ań".

You know, the hilarious thing is that I actually DO that, but never even realised what it was! I always used to say 'Иринь!' анд 'Кать!' to my girlfriends! I'd just heard other people do it, and unconsciously copied it. :rofl: Благодарю за ... как ето? Освящение! :D

[W. R.]

There are no language borders whatsoever. Literally speaking, you can start walking in Archangelsk, northern Russia, and come to Karlovy Vary, western Czechia, and if you walked slow enough - you want even notice how the language changed.In my opinion it would be more correct to say that there are no clear-cut language borders, but they exist in the form of “clusters of isoglosses” (is the term “cluster” correct?). An example of such a cluster can be Lida-Łojeŭ cluster of isoglosses which separates North-Eastern group of Belarusian dialects from South-Western group. So, looking at a dialectological map of Belarus with many isoglosses drawn you will see no clear-cut border between the two groups of dialects, but some blurred border (formed by many isoglosses) you will see for sure. Similar blurred borders (clusters of isoglosses) separate the Belarusian language from its Slavic neighbours, and the Slavic neighbours from one another. Though I have no map to instantiate this statement, sorry.
Nah, but what do you mean there? I don't quite get it. 'Rossiya' is not really a Russian word - it's just a learned Latinism. Russians do occasionally say simply Русь for their country - it's not their fault that the bits on the edge fell off and yet kept the same name! :pIt’s not known for sure how the name ‘Rus’ embraced all the territory of people known today as East Slavs. Maybe the dynasty of Ryrikids and their influence made that term popular. Paszkiewicz believed that it was the Orthodox Church which popularised the name. But in any case it is common legacy of Belarus, Russia and the Ukraine.

Once in a book on anthropology (published in Soviet times) I read an interesting side-note. The author mentioned that in Middle Ages Ruthenian authors who were citizens of Rzecz Pospolita included or excluded Muscovites from “Rus” depending on their own liking or disliking. For some of them Muscovy was also “Rus”, for others “Rus” were only lands to the West of Smolensk and Kiev. From this point of view my stance is pro-Muscovite: I don’t exclude Muscovy from “Rus”. But I do deny its exclusive rights for this name. That’s why speaking Belarusian I don’t use the adjective “Russian” or expression “in Russian”. Though I don’t use “Muscovite” (maskal, maskoviec) either: it can be taken as an attempt to insult them. As a compromise I use words “vielikaruski” and “pa-vielikarusku”. I’m more tolerant to the name “Russia” as long as it doesn’t take the form “Rus”. :)
Belarussian, and some western Russian dialects are 'akayuschy' instead of 'okayuschy' - they say 'a' instead of more etymological 'o' in unstressed positions. You even hear this in Moscow very often.Yes, it is called “qualitative reduction of vowels”. :) There are some differences. For example in the Belarusian language not only “o” but also “e” undergoes the reduction. There are some differences in pronunciation: saying “milk” in Belarusian you just say “malako”, while the Russian orthoepy demands from you to pronounce it as “mъl/\ko. :rolleyes:
WHat's your position on Cyrillic, WR?I prefer Cyrillic, but I use Latin script where it is appropriate. For example “Harščkom nazavi, ale ŭ pieč nia staŭ” looks much better to me than “Harschkom nazavi, ale v pech nya stav”. :) Also being Grammar Nazi I hate when some people try to “improve” the Belarusian Latin script, for example by replacing “ch” by “x”, “ŭ” by “w”, “ł/l” by “l/ĺ”... Damned itch of reforming... When we are in charge they will be first to be sent to concentration camps. Heil Spellcheck!

Pater Noster (taken from the translation of the Bible by Vasil Siomucha):

Vojča naš, jaki jość na niabiosach
Chaj śviacicca imia tvajo
Chaj pryjdzie carstva tvajo
Chaj budzie vola tvaja
Jak na niebie, tak i na ziamli.
Chleb naš nadzionny daj nam siońnia,
I daruj nam praviny našyja,
Jak i my darujem vinavatym pierad nami
I nie dapuści nas da spakusy,
Ale ratuj nas ad lichoha,
Bo tvajo jość carstva i siła i słava navieki.
Amin!

I'm more or less sure about the words but not so sure about punctuation marks.

[Cail]

In my opinion it would be more correct to say that there are no clear-cut language borders, but they exist in the form of “clusters of isoglosses” (is the term “cluster” correct?). An example of such a cluster can be Lida-Łojeŭ cluster of isoglosses which separates North-Eastern group of Belarusian dialects from South-Western group. So, looking at a dialectological map of Belarus with many isoglosses drawn you will see no clear-cut border between the two groups of dialects, but some blurred border (formed by many isoglosses) you will see for sure. Similar blurred borders (clusters of isoglosses) separate the Belarusian language from its Slavic neighbours, and the Slavic neighbours from one another. Though I have no map to instantiate this statement, sorry.Iine.


Well, you're right, that's what actually ment by dialectial continuum :). Isoglosses change gradually, not all at once. Meaning, you go from one village to another, there won't be a situation like "here they speak Ukrainian, and there - Slovak". You will notice some slight changes mb. And these changes accumulate over distance, and finally it's not Ukrainian any more, but Slovak already (actually you'd pass a Rusyn stage too).

[Sventovit]

No, it is about as close to Polish as it is to Russian, though the closest relative is Ukrainian.

That's simply not true. Russian and Belarussian have about 95% of their lexicon in common, vs. the estimated 65-70% of lexical similarity between Belarussian and Polish. Russian is Belarussian's closest relative, which any self-respecting linguist will tell you. In any other time and place it would have been considered a Russian dialect with a small Baltic substratum evident primarily in the pronunciation.


That, if we speak about literary languages, in reality everything is kinda more complicated - a dialect continuum exists, that rolls from western dialects of Russian to Belorussian and then to Polish, while southern dialects of Russian gradually become dialects of Ukrainian, which, in turn, becomes Slovak in the west. Northern Ukrainian dialects are indistinguishable from Southern Belorussian.

That's an areal relationship, not a genetic one. In reality, Ukrainian, as a language is closer to Polish than Belarussian is, but both are considerably closer to Russian than either is to Polish.

[Cail]

That's simply not true. Russian and Belarussian have about 95% of their lexicon in common, vs. the estimated 65-70% of lexical similarity between Belarussian and Polish. Russian is Belarussian's closest relative, which any self-respecting linguist will tell you. In any other time and place it would have been considered a Russian dialect with a small Baltic substratum evident primarily in the pronunciation.

Actually i am that linguist. And no, that is not true, Belorussian/Ukrainian (Ruthenian) is not a dialect of Russian at all. 92% (not 95) lexical similiarity in 207-word Swadesh list is a norm for Slavic languages, f.e. Russian and Polish have 86%, Polish and Belorussian - 89%.


That's an areal relationship, not a genetic one.

All relations in Northern-Slavic group are area (coevolution), because genetically they are all the same already. Easternmost Ukrainian is closest to to Southern Russian, while Westernmost is closest to Rusyn and then Slovak, f.e. Same with Belorussian, transphering from western Russian to Eastern-border dialects of Polish.


In reality, Ukrainian, as a language is closer to Polish than Belarussian is, but both are considerably closer to Russian than either is to Polish.

No, Belorussian is actually a little closer to Polish then Ukrainian is (speaking of literary languages). Ukrainian and Belorussian are closest relatives (about 98% on 207-Swadesh), but literary Belorussian is more tilted to Polish historically.

[Svarog]

Nah, but what do you mean there? I don't quite get it. 'Rossiya' is not really a Russian word - it's just a learned Latinism. Russians do occasionally say simply Русь for their country - it's not their fault that the bits on the edge fell off and yet kept the same name! :p?

Yes, but they refer to Kievan Russ and not Russia, Russ and Russia are two different things, Russia is a present country while Russ (Русь) is long gone.


I agree. As a south Slavic speaker, I find Russian and Belarussian much more comprehensible than e.g. Polish.

Depends, I find Ukrainian the closest to Southern languages, while, Polish have the most same or very similar words, it's their accents that makes language seem much different than other Slavic ones, while, really, it is more similar to Serbian than Russian is.

[W. R.]

That's simply not true.I happened to read statements, that the closest language to Belarusian is Upper Sorbian. :nerd: But in that case not words on Swadesh list were counted, but some common traits. After Upper Sorbian came Ukrainian, then Polish/Russian and other Slavic languages.

[Sarmata]

No way! Polish has all sorts of weird awful sounds! :p
((Who has a link to that youtube clip from an old Polish film where the German officer has a nightmare trying to write down the Pole's surname? :rofl:))
I barely recognise a thing when the Lyakhi speak, but if you ask them to write down what they said it's usually easy enough. I used to teach Polish kids English, and occasionally amused myself by asking them about parallels with Russian, but I admit I have a lot of familiarising to do with the language before I can say anything authoritative.
:)

Very well here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90w9_GoTQj4. It's "weird" becouse our language comes from ancient Sarmatian;)

[Sarmata]

"[...] jak nie ad nas zaležyć vybirać sabie baćkoŭ, tak nie ad nas zaležyć vybirać sabie nacyju; možna tolki spaŭniać abo nie spaŭniać pavinnaści, vynikajučyja z prynaležnaści da svajho narodu.”
© Dr. Jan Stankievič "Ź historyji Biełarusi"

This "maxim" sounds almost identical in Polish BTW. But I have no idea what word "baćkoŭ" means:confused:

[W. R.]

"[...] jak nie ad nas zaležyć vybirać sabie baćkoŭ, tak nie ad nas zaležyć vybirać sabie nacyju; možna tolki spaŭniać abo nie spaŭniać pavinnaści, vynikajučyja z prynaležnaści da svajho narodu.”
© Dr. Jan Stankievič "Ź historyji Biełarusi"

This "maxim" sounds almost identical in Polish BTW. But I have no idea what word "baćkoŭ" means:confused:

It means "parents".

[Svarog]

One anecdote about similarity between Russian and Ukrainian, true story.

My dad and two of his Russian friends were heading for Serbia, they took train from Moscow and they had two or three hours break in Ukraine, just after the border cause train had to switch the locomotive. They were starving and they hit the restaurant. Back then, you could have not just walk in whenever you want as you do today, you'd have to talk to receptionist and they'd get you a table.

So, my dad lives in Russia his entire life being part Russian, his friends are both born Moscovites, so, there's no place to doubt their knowledge in Russian language, they walked to the receptionist girl, and she'd see they're Russians and whenever they'd ask her something in Russian she'd smile and answer in Ukrainian and they had no idea what she's saying, they kept asking if she speaks Russian and she kept saying no, so, my dad got pissed and said "pusti je u pizdu materinu' which is a curse, not possible to translate in English but she did hear him and assumed they are actually not Russians SO she replies in perfect Russian that their table will be ready in 10 minutes.

In a way sad, tragic story about two similar people, but, still says that beside claims that the language is the same, it is not.

[Cail]

This "maxim" sounds almost identical in Polish BTW. But I have no idea what word "baćkoŭ" means:confused:

Baćka = Father, Baćki = Fathers (Parents), Baćkow = accusative case ("vybirać baćkow"). "ŭ" is allophone of "v" (sounds like english "w" and "v").

[Sarmata]

Baćka = Father, Baćki = Fathers (Parents), Baćkow = accusative case ("vybirać baćkow"). "ŭ" is allophone of "v" (sounds like english "w" and "v").

Interesting I suspected that "braćkŭ" could be brothers!. In Polish brother means "brat" and in Silesian dialect of Polish language it's "braćik".

[Cail]

Interesting I suspected that "braćkŭ" could be brothers!. In Polish brother means "brat" and in Silesian dialect of Polish language it's "braćik".

These are different words. "Brother" is also "brat" in Belarussian (and in Russian, Ukrainian, Slovak. In Czech - "bratr"). "Braćik" is a diminutive form, compare Russian "bratik".

"Baćka" is "father" in Belorussian, and it also exists in Russian, Ukrainian and Slovak ("Bat'ka" in all three).

But in Russian and Slovak it is an archaism/"low language" (usual word in both languages is "otiec" - Polish "ojciec"), while in Belorussian/Ukrainian it's the main word in literary language.

In Czech this word historically became used as "village elder", along with "starosta" (which is same in Russian/Polish).

In Polish it dissapeared completely, but the female analogue remains ("Matka" - Mother).

Ethymologically it is cognate of English "Father", Latin "Pater" etc.

Old Slavic - English (Germanic) - Latin (Romance)

Bratr - Brother - Frater
Sestra - Sister - Soror
Bater - Father - Pater
Mater - Mother - Mater

"Bratr" became "Brat" (except in Czech, where it remains "Bratr"), Sestra remains same (Siostra in Polish, Siestra in Russian, Sestra in Czech), Mater became Matka/Mat' (or Mama lately), while "Bater" became "Bat'ka" and came out of use, replaced by "Otec".

"Otec" is cogante of Latin "atta" ("dad"), Frysian "hayt", Iranic "ada", Gael. "aite" et cetera.

[kwp_wp]

These are different words. "Brother" is also "brat" in Belarussian (and in Russian, Ukrainian, Slovak. In Czech - "bratr"). "Braćik" is a diminutive form, compare Russian "bratik".

"Baćka" is "father" in Belorussian, and it also exists in Russian, Ukrainian and Slovak ("Bat'ka" in all three).

But in Russian and Slovak it is an archaism/"low language" (usual word in both languages is "otiec" - Polish "ojciec"), while in Belorussian/Ukrainian it's the main word in literary language.

In Polish mountaineer language exists word "baca". It means: shepherd, the protector of the herd. I think both: Baćka and baca have the same basis for formative: bac or bat

[Cail]

In Polish mountaineer language exists word "baca". It means: shepherd, the protector of the herd. I think both: Baćka and baca have the same basis for formative: bac or bat

Possibly, yes. When replaced by "otiec"/"ojciec" it took many meanings in different Slavic languages (like "bat'ek" - "starosta" in Czech or Moravian/Slovakian dialect "bat'a" - "uncle" et cetera).

[Osweo]

But in Russian and Slovak it is an archaism/"low language" (usual word in both languages is "otiec" - Polish "ojciec"), while in Belorussian/Ukrainian it's the main word in literary language.
The diminuitive Batyushka is in fairly common use as a term to address priests, it might be worth mentioning. It was used of the Tsar' too, in the old days, or other senior figures.
Bat'ko as 'Big Daddy' or 'Boss' is an interesting development too, where the term has become more of a description for leaders. Bat'ka Makhno is a famous regional hero/bandit/revolutionary down in the south, for instance, and the term is often applied to dear old uncle Lukashenka. ;)

Ethymologically it is cognate of English "Father", Latin "Pater" etc.
Bater - Father - Pater
Are you sure about that? I always read that it was an independent development based in child-speech. Baba, Mama, Dada, etc.

"Otec" is cogante of Gael. "aite" et cetera.
Oh no, that's definitely wrong! Despite the appearance, aite is just a child form of the more 'correct' athair, no? (But shit, I might just be wrong here, myself! :p) And athair is a perfect cognate of pater/father. The key sound shift for Celtic from PIE was the loss of initial P.

[Cail]

Are you sure about that? I always read that it was an independent development based in child-speech. Baba, Mama, Dada, etc.
Nope, child-speech for "father" in Slavic is "Tata" and its' reflexes.


Oh no, that's definitely wrong! Despite the appearance, aite is just a child form of the more 'correct' athair, no? (But shit, I might just be wrong here, myself! :p) And athair is a perfect cognate of pater/father. The key sound shift for Celtic from PIE was the loss of initial P.

That's contamination (in linguistical sense) of both words. In IE languages two synonyms for "father" coexisted, one *phǝtḗr and another *háttъ (-> greek ἄττα, lat. atta, goth. atta, frys. hayt, albanian at, het. hаttаš et cetera). "Athair" is of different origin, Proto-IE *phǝtḗr -> Proto-Celtic *ɸatīr -> Proto-Goidelic/Oghamic Irish athir. Later both converged to "aite".

In Slavic, on the other hand, *háttъ -> *otьkъ -> оtьсь.

[Amarantine]

i sila i slava vo vjeki vjekov

[W. R.]

In my opinion it would be more correct to say that there are no clear-cut language borders, but they exist in the form of “clusters of isoglosses” (is the term “cluster” correct?). An example of such a cluster can be Lida-Łojeŭ cluster of isoglosses which separates North-Eastern group of Belarusian dialects from South-Western group. So, looking at a dialectological map of Belarus with many isoglosses drawn you will see no clear-cut border between the two groups of dialects, but some blurred border (formed by many isoglosses) you will see for sure. Similar blurred borders (clusters of isoglosses) separate the Belarusian language from its Slavic neighbours, and the Slavic neighbours from one another. Though I have no map to instantiate this statement, sorry.Two maps which depict the cluster of isoglosses which separates the Polish language and the Belarusian language. I had to zip them.

Map A: From "Słownictwo z zakresu uprawy roli w gwarach wschodniej Białostocczyzny na tle wschodniosłowiańskim" by Elżbieta Smułkowa, Polska Akademia Nauk, Wrocław-Warszawa-Kraków, 1968.

Map B: From "Atlas gwar wschodniosłowiańskich Białostocczyzny", Polska Akademia Nauk, Wrocław-Warszawa-Kraków, 1980

[Kanasyuvigi]

Two maps which depict the cluster of isoglosses which separates the Polish language and the Belarusian language. I had to zip them.

Map A: From "Słownictwo z zakresu uprawy roli w gwarach wschodniej Białostocczyzny na tle wschodniosłowiańskim" by Elżbieta Smułkowa, Polska Akademia Nauk, Wrocław-Warszawa-Kraków, 1968.

Map B: From "Atlas gwar wschodniosłowiańskich Białostocczyzny", Polska Akademia Nauk, Wrocław-Warszawa-Kraków, 1980

I also think that there are no clear borders between the Slavic languages. The so called Torlaks speak a transitional form between Bulgarian and SerboCroatoBosnianMontenegrin...http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1c/Torlak_dialects_map.png