Ulster-Scots culture, language, and a short history of the Plantation

[Weedman]

Ulster-Scots language and culture from a Catholic/ Gaelic speaker's perspective

http://youtu.be/24izvXvNU34

A History of the Plantation of Ulster, in 10 minutes or less :)

http://youtu.be/Ts_G7ug7W9c

[MayDay]

Most of today's Irish are not really Irish but English and Scottish. The real Irish were mostly killed off. I guess those in Ulster are the ones who didn't convert to the Catholic religion.

[Loki]

Most of today's Irish are not really Irish but English and Scottish. The real Irish were mostly killed off. I guess those in Ulster are the ones who didn't convert to the Catholic religion.

wtf?

Nobody "converted" to the Catholic religion. It's the other way around. Before Protestantism all of us were Catholic.

[Black Wolf]

Most of today's Irish are not really Irish but English and Scottish. The real Irish were mostly killed off. I guess those in Ulster are the ones who didn't convert to the Catholic religion.

Oh ya? Go tell them that. Their ancestors have been there for around 400 years or more.

[Loki]

Oh ya? Go tell them that. Their ancestors have been there for around 400 years or more.

Well it's even worse. She didn't talk about the Northern Irish, but the Irish as a whole. They've been there for thousands of years.

[Black Wolf]

Well it's even worse. She didn't talk about the Northern Irish, but the Irish as a whole. They've been there for thousands of years.

Yes very true.

[MayDay]

Well it's even worse. She didn't talk about the Northern Irish, but the Irish as a whole. They've been there for thousands of years.

I'm confused. Melonhead said the native Irish were mostly killed off and replaced by Scottish and English settlers. Maybe he was talking about Ulster only? But he didn't say Ulster. I was in Ireland for a week and saw many English type names, like Wesley, so it made sense to me.

[Loki]

I'm confused. Melonhead said the native Irish were mostly killed off and replaced by Scottish and English settlers. Maybe he was talking about Ulster only? But he didn't say Ulster. I was in Ireland for a week and saw many English type names, like Wesley, so it made sense to me.

Melonhead has never been to Ireland either. Maybe he meant Ulster, maybe not. Who knows. But the fact of the matter is that it is incorrect. And no, you will mostly find Irish surnames in Ireland. In Northern Ireland, you can find more English (and Scottish) surnames, because they are more recent arrivals.

Genetics also confirm that the Irish are Irish.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

Melonhead has never been to Ireland either. Maybe he meant Ulster, maybe not. Who knows. But the fact of the matter is that it is incorrect. And no, you will mostly find Irish surnames in Ireland. In Northern Ireland, you can find more English (and Scottish) surnames, because they are more recent arrivals.

Genetics also confirm that the Irish are Irish.

Lies on all counts. Unintentional ones, though. But I think I have gone over every inch of each statement here about a hundred times now.

[Prisoner Of Ice]

I'm confused. Melonhead said the native Irish were mostly killed off and replaced by Scottish and English settlers. Maybe he was talking about Ulster only? But he didn't say Ulster. I was in Ireland for a week and saw many English type names, like Wesley, so it made sense to me.

Yes, all but in connacht. And that is only area that the previous invaders largely passed by, as well.

[Loki]

Lies on all counts. Unintentional ones, though. But I think I have gone over every inch of each statement here about a hundred times now.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

[MayDay]

Yes, all but in connacht. And that is only area that the previous invaders largely passed by, as well.

Okay. That makes sense. I spent my week in Mayo county.

[LightHouse89]

wtf?

Nobody "converted" to the Catholic religion. It's the other way around. Before Protestantism all of us were Catholic.

Then Cromwell came and even you Loki must admit he was the Hitler of the British Islands.

[LightHouse89]

Melonhead has never been to Ireland either. Maybe he meant Ulster, maybe not. Who knows. But the fact of the matter is that it is incorrect. And no, you will mostly find Irish surnames in Ireland. In Northern Ireland, you can find more English (and Scottish) surnames, because they are more recent arrivals.

Genetics also confirm that the Irish are Irish.

The Anglo-Normans and Anglo-Irish are examples of earlier English migration however they were descendants mostly of the Medieval era. I have some Anglo-Norman heritage as my name indicates. However they did not impose English culture on the Irish or religion, or political rule [except the Normans in some areas]. The Ulster Scots are different and yes more recent, 1600s and came via the Cromwell invasion.

[Loki]

The Anglo-Normans and Anglo-Irish are examples of earlier English migration however they were descendants mostly of the Medieval era. I have some Anglo-Norman heritage as my name indicates. However they did not impose English culture on the Irish or religion, or political rule [except the Normans in some areas]. The Ulster Scots are different and yes more recent, 1600s and came via the Cromwell invasion.

As for Anglo-Normans, there was no large genetic impact from Normans to England even - just a few sporadic surnames.

[LightHouse89]

As for Anglo-Normans, there was no large genetic impact from Normans to England even - just a few sporadic surnames.

By Normans I include the Flemish, Briton, Dutch, and French Mercenaries who accompanied them and were given lands or intermarried with the minor aristocracy. They came but the actual Normans as Rollo's descendants were not in huge numbers but their army were granted lands as the fleeing Saxons or dead Saxon aristocracies lands were confiscated by the Normans throughout the British Islands. In Ireland and Scotland they mostly mixed with them and were absorbed culturally and genetically I believe.

I would think every Irish, English, Welsh, Scottish and yes Northern Irish have Norman heritage whether from the aristocracy or the mercenaries who came over and were granted knighthood for their service. I have a book on them and read much about this particular time as it is my favorite in British/Irish history. The Normans were the most ruthless bunch and scared away the Vikings. The Normans ere feared in the Middle East even the arabs thought they were a ruthless sort.

[Smaug]

Most of today's Irish are not really Irish but English and Scottish. The real Irish were mostly killed off. I guess those in Ulster are the ones who didn't convert to the Catholic religion.

So many wrong things in a single post that I don't even know where to start from...

[MayDay]

So many wrong things in a single post that I don't even know where to start from...

I've been corrected. I'm more knowledgeable now. Thank you for your concern.

[Loki]

By Normans I include the Flemish, Briton, Dutch, and French Mercenaries who accompanied them and were given lands or intermarried with the minor aristocracy. They came but the actual Normans as Rollo's descendants were not in huge numbers but their army were granted lands as the fleeing Saxons or dead Saxon aristocracies lands were confiscated by the Normans throughout the British Islands. In Ireland and Scotland they mostly mixed with them and were absorbed culturally and genetically I believe.

I would think every Irish, English, Welsh, Scottish and yes Northern Irish have Norman heritage whether from the aristocracy or the mercenaries who came over and were granted knighthood for their service. I have a book on them and read much about this particular time as it is my favorite in British/Irish history. The Normans were the most ruthless bunch and scared away the Vikings. The Normans ere feared in the Middle East even the arabs thought they were a ruthless sort.


Even if you combine all those, the genetic impact on the bulk of the population was minimal. Far greater is the Danish genetic impact from the Viking era. I am astonished that people still cling to this myth of large Norman genetic impact in the British Isles. It was merely a ruling thing, along with some aristocracy that moved in. The general population wasn't really affected.

[Smaug]

I've been corrected. I'm more knowledgeable now. Thank you for your concern.

Good :)

Sorry if I sounded rude in a first moment, but with the great ammount of trolls we get here our hearts become greyish with time.

[MayDay]

Good :)

Sorry if I sounded rude in a first moment, but with the great ammount of trolls we get here our hearts become greyish with time.

I was only repeating what Melonhead told me. I don't think he's a troll.

[Celxon]

I'm confused. Melonhead said the native Irish were mostly killed off and replaced by Scottish and English settlers. Maybe he was talking about Ulster only? But he didn't say Ulster. I was in Ireland for a week and saw many English type names, like Wesley, so it made sense to me.

:D Is this a parody? If so, well done!

[Loki]

I was only repeating what Melonhead told me. I don't think he's a troll.

He's not a troll but he is wrong about that - you shouldn't just believe the first guy who tells you something on the internet.

[Celxon]

Melonhead has never been to Ireland either. Maybe he meant Ulster, maybe not. Who knows. But the fact of the matter is that it is incorrect. And no, you will mostly find Irish surnames in Ireland. In Northern Ireland, you can find more English (and Scottish) surnames, because they are more recent arrivals.

Genetics also confirm that the Irish are Irish.

You can find English surnames in the Pale. More than a few last names in Ireland are anglicized too. Of course, you find more "real" English and Scottish surnames in Ulster. There's no need to cover that.

[LightHouse89]

Even if you combine all those, the genetic impact on the bulk of the population was minimal. Far greater is the Danish genetic impact from the Viking era. I am astonished that people still cling to this myth of large Norman genetic impact in the British Isles. It was merely a ruling thing, along with some aristocracy that moved in. The general population wasn't really affected.

It would have required a significant military occupation as the anti-Norman resentment last all the way till Henry the 5th. Infact that was a pivotal period in English history. The Irish, Scots, Welsh and English hated the Normans with a passion. Although the city of Watersford, a Viking-celt city fell to just 17 mounted Norman knights. However the impact to me is not significant but I know for a fact I have Norman DNA :cool: Many people do but yes they would have intermixed into the native population. The Normans 'became more Irish than the Irish themselves' as the saying went. They were the conquerors of the British Islands. They did more for the British Island than the Saxons, Vikings, and Celts did combined :p

[Celxon]

They [the Normans] were the conquerors of the British Islands. They did more for the British Island than the Saxons, Vikings, and Celts did combined :p

Like the Harrying of the North? (sarcasm) Seriously, I agree with your main point, but the other three groups also made vital contributions that were necessary for the development of the British Isles (lasting institutions, port cities, Christian preservation, respectively).

[LightHouse89]

Like the Harrying of the North? (sarcasm) Seriously, I agree with your main point, but the other three groups also made vital contributions that were necessary for the development of the British Isles (lasting institutions, port cities, Christian preservation, respectively).

The whole surname system was invented by Normans for tax purposes. Except Celts were practicing the surname system before the arrival of Germanics.

[Celxon]

The whole surname system was invented by Normans for tax purposes. Except Celts were practicing the surname system before the arrival of Germanics.

Sure. The Celts and the "Vikings" had a familial naming system, which showed one's relationship to one's dad or grandpa (Mc, O', Ap, -son).

[Fear Fiain]

Ulster-Scots language and culture from a Catholic/ Gaelic speaker's perspective

http://youtu.be/24izvXvNU34

A History of the Plantation of Ulster, in 10 minutes or less :)

http://youtu.be/Ts_G7ug7W9c

This is really really beautiful, hearing the two languages I heard from childhood blended together, being actually used together. I hope to see a united ireland in which ulster-scots and gaeilge share official language status, and hiberno-english is transitioned out. I would bust my ass as a janitor or similar dirty work if that's what it took to live in such a lovely place.